The deep instinct that Britain’s immigration debate still ignores

No politician today would dare to speak about a ‘national soul’. No one will believe them until they do

10 January 2015

9:00 AM

10 January 2015

9:00 AM

The issue of immigration won’t go away, because it threatens the soul of the nation.

Nobody in political authority uses such language today, because they are unsure of the validity of ‘soul’ and of the political safety of the term ‘nation’. They will use the term ‘we’ in the context of Britain and its people, but would surely dodge defining it. Try as he might this election year, neither Cameron nor Miliband can do anything to persuade anxious voters they care about immigration, because they don’t use language which reaches the soul.

No one else does either, not even Nigel Farage — it just won’t do. Yet only this abandoned language will work if the issue is to be faced up to and the electorate is to hear it and believe it.

Half a century ago — in 1964 — I stood for Parliament, more or less for the hell of it since I was already fully employed as a journalist. I had covered more than 115 countries, almost all in a state of tension or conflict, usually arising out of ethnic sources or the rage for race-and-place self-determination.

Mine was an unwinnable seat and I duly lost. So did my party, the Conservatives, under Alec Douglas-Home, by a whisker. The newspaper I wrote for, the Sunday Times, had me provide an op-ed piece for the paper the following weekend on the issue of whatever had meant most in my community of Shepherd’s Bush. It was immigration, I wrote, virtually unvoiced and certainly unarticulated, in a west London constituency where it was estimated that since the 1959 general election the proportion of Commonwealth immigrants in the population had risen to 9 per cent. They were mainly Quashies (in the Caribbean vernacular) from the back streets of Kingston, Jamaica, a city I relished. Two self-appointed Jamaican volunteers came to join my campaign, carrying their own message of ‘Enough is enough or there will be trouble.’ My party had no perceptible policy. But I understood what my Jamaican supporters saw coming.

It was the first article to appear in the British national press to highlight immigration as a challenge to the homegrown identity of the man in the street. It was three years ahead of Enoch Powell’s emotive Birmingham speech, quoting Virgil on the poet’s vision of the Tiber ‘foaming with much blood’. Powell’s style of intervention rendered the subject untouchable by the mainstream parties. It was to remain so for a generation.

Powell had queered the pitch and blighted the language for what ought to have been a sober, realistic, open-hearted debate at the centre of political life. The largely working-class communities among which many immigrants were settling were broken-hearted at the theft of their collective identity in the places where they had grown up and at being told to be ashamed of their resentment.

The flood of immigration after Labour came to power in 1997 at last got the issue on to the political agenda, and meant that respectable politicians could begin to talk about pressures on schools, housing and the NHS, and the drain on the benefit budget, and on competition for jobs. They could even — as Cameron did last year — declare an intention to curtail the unrestricted movement of people within the European Union.

But this sort of talk misses the point. The founding Euro-vow, the unlimited right of the continent’s diverse peoples to migrate wherever they fancy within Europe’s borders, is a grotesque misreading of the human spirit, an affront virtually unrecognisable in the anomalous duchy of Luxembourg or riven, self–hating Belgium.

It is an affront to the instinctual and irrepressible craving for the recognisable ‘us’ in its myriad forms, sustained by shared history, myth and ritual. Codes of speech, humour and heaven knows what other subliminal clues make for the sense of the patria from which today’s nations emerged as nation-states with their chosen governments. ‘As water wears away a stone,’ in the imagery of Ortega y Gasset, ‘so the landscape models its men, custom by custom. Momentary bursts of genius… mark its profits.’

This is the soul’s requirement for the will-to-be, no less present in an urbanised, atomised, illusorily globalised society than in a tribe. Long before Homer recited ‘Let us flee to the beloved fatherland’, every hearer would have known the meaning of such an utterance. Ethnicity matters. ‘To love the little platoon we belong to in society,’ wrote Edmund Burke, ‘is the first principle (the germ, as it were) of public affections. It is the first link in the series by which we proceed towards love to our country and to mankind.’

My own experience of witnessing and writing on the turmoils of the world brought home to me that the more confident a people were about who they are and where they belong, the more open-hearted they are towards those others who belong or have belonged elsewhere. But where indigenous identity is baulked or challenged beyond a certain point, suspicion and hostility grow.

The soul, of which Burke spoke readily, is in search of whatever makes for that ‘whole’ which liberates and inspires. We make art to aim at ‘wholeness’, we seek others to love, or even God, with the same intent.

From the secret confidence of the collective self springs the creative corpus of a people. There are no ‘momentary bursts of genius’ that are not ‘ethnic’ in the fluid, adoptive sense I am deploying the word. Beethoven’s setting of Schiller’s ‘Ode to Joy’ owes its right to ascend to (pan-European) universality out of the authenticity of its Lutheran German provenance. Buber’s ‘confidence of soul’ is essential. What would Sibelius be to any of us if he were not Finnish, Dvorak if not Bohemian, Vaughan-Williams if not English-Celt, Wagner if not Rhenish-German, Mussorgsky if not Russia, Bernstein if not American? Likewise literature; likewise the plastic arts; likewise worship.

This protean us-ness, then, is a constant in mankind’s presence on our planet. Man’s conviction of his identity provides his glimpse of his grandeur. No substitute will serve. Without this identity, Man is without root, and without root he is without leaf.

It is, I repeat, a protean reality: of course it will mutate, shift, merge, mix — but at its own pace. Our sense of ‘us’ can be a source of peace or a source of war; it will be subject to exploitation and corruption; it will be conducive to glory and to sacrifice, but it cannot be ignored or eradicated. It is, in sum, an issue of soul. And if our political masters do not demonstrate their grasp of that, they and we will rue it.

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  • Diggery Whiggery

    Man defines himself first by who he isn’t. If there is no ‘other’ then there is no ‘self’.

    The explosion of gang culture in western societies since the explosion of immigration is but one expression of this need to belong. When a nation essentially says to its population that it is culturally irrelevant and that the trappings of the collective nationality are worthless, people will look around for other groups to belong to, often with dire consequences.

    • Hegelman

      There was a hell of a lot more crime in the Nineteenth century. Spare us your pop sociology.

      • Diggery Whiggery

        Who mentioned crime or the nineteenth century? I used gang culture as but one example of people looking to belong to one group to differentiate themselves. I could have used the rise in Scottish and Welsh nationalism too or many other examples. Whether gangs commit crime or not is irrelevant.

        As for pop sociology, if we were all identical in every way, what concept would you have of ‘self’?

        For future reference it might be best to actually read the lines first before trying to read between them.

      • Ricayboy

        Hegelman – you are obviously a big fan of immigration so please enlighten us about its benefits.

        • alframseyssexdungeon

          One place he won’t direct you to is http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_and_crime

          Only a fool thinks all immigration is good, much in the same way that only a fool thinks it can be all bad. We need truth and specifics in the debate, something the “left” would rather avoid and instead continue calling perfectly rational people bigots, islamophobes, and racists.

        • FenlandBuddha

          Enough doctors and nurses for the health service, or foreign food, someone to pick the crops you eat, for example. Or if you yourself ever fancy living or working or retiring overseas – after all you would be an immigrant to someone else

          • Ricayboy

            If there wasn’t so much demand on the NHS we wouldn’t need so many extra healthcare workers from abroad. Since a quarter of all births are to foreign mothers it’s fair to say that we’d need far fewer midwives to look after them if they weren’t here.

            Foreign food can be good but do we need ten Indian restaurants in each high street? I can knock up a decent curry myself. I don’t need to import half the subcontinent to cook it for me.

            Some migrant labour is useful for picking crops but how much and does it outweigh the problems caused on housing, schools etc? Why not pay decent wages and then local people would have more incentive to do those jobs?

            Immigration causes division and tension in communities. Whatever benefits it brings should be weighed against those problems.

          • MalikHills

            Who picked our food and healed our sick before the onset of mass-immigration?

            Was Britain prior to the docking of the Empire Windrush a land of pestilence and famine where the sick died untended and crops rotted in the field because the population was too stupid or too lazy to look after itself and only required the arrival of millions of barely-literate, unskilled people from poverty-stricken foreign lands to rescue them and provide them with interesting menus into the bargain?

            I seem to recall that the United Kingdom was actually one of the most, if not most, developed nations on the earth prior to 1950 (and it even had hundreds of restaurants where customers could eat Indian, French, Italian, Chinese etc. food).

            So again, what benefits has the UK derived from mass immigration (I stress “mass” immigration) that it wouldn’t have had without it?

          • Neil Saunders

            If they paid a decent wage (and didn’t regularly give first refusal of the jobs to foreigners), native English would be doing all of those things, as they did in the past.

      • alframseyssexdungeon

        Except that isn’t actually true.

        Homicides rarely exceeded 400 per year during the mid 19th century (when any form of reliable statistics began), and only occasionally went above 350 in the final decade. Recent stats suggest it stands somewhere in the region of 650 (and this is a reduction on the figure during the 00’s).

        Of course, you will probably say that this is offset by “homicides per 100,000). And you would be right. However, this itself is negated by immeasurably better healthcare which means that many “murders” end up being “attempted murder”. Also bear in mind that many abortions were classed as homicide.

        Today we also have better forensics and policing methods (which bring killing sprees to a swifter conclusion with any luck).

        So, pack in the “pop sociology” accusations.

        • FenlandBuddha

          “offset by “homicides per 100,000)”

          Do you understand how that actually works? Saying there were only 400 murders a year in 1850 but there are 650 a year now so we are more violent is a nonsense if you don’t take into account the huge difference in population!

          A small village of 100 people where 20 people a year are killed (call it Midsomer) is far more violent than a city of 1 million were 30 people a year are killed. You have to take into account the size of the population in question.

          As for attempted murders, there are about 500 a year so it still makes us less violent than the the 19th century.

          • alframseyssexdungeon

            You didn’t read it properly, did you. I made that very point. i.e the homicide per capita rate would suggest that you were less likely to be a victim of violent crime today. However, I then pointed out that this is still untrue given the fact that a huge number of deaths which occurred then (and were catalogued as murder) would not have occurred today because of medical advances. There are, for example, a vast number of knife attacks today where the victim walks out of hospital within 48 hours, but would have been carried out in a box in 1899.

            Today we call them “attempted murder”, “manslaughter”, and “wounding with intent”.

            Moreover, it is without doubt that anyone born 50 or 60 years ago is more likely to be murdered today than in the year of their birth.

      • Ed  

        Why did the crime drop? The rule of law played a part, I believe. You’ll also find that much of that drop occurred prior to the advent of large-scale immigration, at which time it began again to climb.

        Pop sociology indeed.

        • FenlandBuddha

          And so why are crime rates now falling while immigration continues? Linking crime to immigration as you do would suggest immigrants must be more law-abiding now

          • Ed  

            As long as it’s not going unreported, as it did for so long in Rotherham….

          • Johnnydub

            Give any government employee a target, and he/she will devote the majority of their time to fiddling it…

          • alframseyssexdungeon

            Leaving aside the argument as to whether there is actually a long term downward trend in crime, the idea of contrasting levels with immigration as a whole throws up erroneous results.

            Why should this be? Well, because some immigrant groups (Sikhs for example) are extremely unlikely to commit crime. Same thing goes for the average Australian, Canadian, Filipino and others.

            However, there are some groups which are disproportionately linked to crime. These vary according to cultural group. *cough* Rotherham *cough*. Moreover, Met Police data shows that certain Eastern European groups are overrepresented in theft and robbery cases while others from the same region are underrepresented.

            Only by facing up to these facts can we move forward with a sensible immigration policy. Unfortunately, right now the ones we seem to bend over backwards to accommodate are the very ones who should be discouraged from coming here.

      • Ed  


      • Jody Taylor

        Yep, that’s because the population in the 19th century was so much higher than the explosive numbers of the modern world.

      • Damaris Tighe

        How has this comment any connection with Diggery Whiggery’s point?

      • Colonel Mustard

        Maybe, but in the 19th Century the free English could buy and use firearms for self-defence and to defend their homes without restriction.

    • willshome

      “If there is no ‘other’ there is no ‘self’.” What a sad, attenuated little life you must lead.

      • Diggery Whiggery

        Ah I knew there’d be one and here you are. That you feel the need to insult me without even knowing me speaks volumes.

        If everyone in the world was identical in every way, how would you define yourself as an individual? What concept of self would you have? What reference point would you have to distinguish your identity from that of anyone else?

        Everyone, including your good self defines him/herself in relation to the surrounding environment at many different scales and on many different levels, sometimes consciously but often subconsciously, sometimes positively, sometimes negatively. Part of that surrounding environment is formed by the the other people in it whether you like it or not and whether you think it has an influence on you or not.

    • Terry Field

      “Man defines himself first by who he isn’t”

      I am not a biscuit.
      You are.

      • Diggery Whiggery

        Am I? What for making a point that you’ve just confirmed?

        If you were the only thing in an otherwise empty universe devoid of even the most delicious biscuits. What reference point would there be to define yourself?

        Everyone subconsciously and sometimes consciously derives his/her concept of self in relation to his/her surrounding environment, even you. Other people are just one part of that environment.

  • Ken

    This piece says it all. Excellent to have a limited number of outsiders settle here, wherever they come from, provided they are willing to integrate. But the transformation of British cities (e.g. Bradford, Tower Hamlets) into ethnic ghettoes is appalling.Powell was broadly right.

    • Hegelman

      I take it then the USA, Canada and Australia sholud all be abolished, as should England itself, given Anglo-Saxons came from Germany?

      • Malcolm Stevas

        What a curious interpretation.

        • alframseyssexdungeon

          It’s also a scientifically crap one given that the majority of British males belong to an R1B y-chromosome haplogroup closely defined to “ancient Britishness” and that the number with Anglo-Saxon genes is considerably smaller.

          • Damaris Tighe

            It belongs to the ‘nation of immigrants’ meme which is used to justify mass immigration, & has been totally discredited, as you say.

          • willshome

            Totally discredited? You do realise that tracing one patralinear line tells very little?

          • Damaris Tighe

            The meme ‘nation of immigrants’ is based on history as it was taught up till quite recently, that each British population (pre-Celtic, Celtic, Anglo-Saxon, Danish, etc) replaced a former one. In fact dna research has now proved that the majority of the native British population are descended from people who migrated here around 15,000 years ago. Changes in British culture were just that, cultural changes imposed by small warrior elites, rather than major ethnic changes.

          • justsomeone

            Look at people’s faces and ask yourself if they really look like they belong to one ethnic group rather than to a hotchpotch of several. When you go to Finland (or to Mongolia for that matter) you see what looks like one ethnic group.

          • alframseyssexdungeon

            Try Blood of the Isles by Bryan Sykes. Or just start using google.

          • Damaris Tighe

            Stephen Oppenheimer, The Origins of the British, is the best.

          • The PrangWizard of England

            Just for the record, I’m one of the Anglo-Saxons.

          • alframseyssexdungeon

            Law of averages says that you probably live somewhere east of a north-south line passing through Birmingham. Am I right? I’m English (being English doesn’t mean you have a traceable genetic link to Angles or Saxons), but with a direct maternal line to Wales.

          • The PrangWizard of England

            I have had my DNA checked which shows an Anglo-Saxon base, and my family line can traced back to the 12th century, although I do not claim that it can be totally accurate. In the early centuries they were living in Lancashire, so you are correct in your analysis. There is some blurring as southern Danish mixed a lot with the Saxons of northern Germany.
            Clearly people don’t have to be Anglo-Saxon to regard themselves as English but I think people who have made their lives in England should do so; they should not think of themselves as Norwegian if they are descended from Norse Vikings, for example, or Welsh/Scottish etc, if they have those blood lines; some seem very keen to do so, especially among the aristos. I don’t call myself German.

          • Llamedos2

            Alframey…. That is an interesting fact, thank you for sharing with us. (not being sarcastic, I always assumed the A-Saxon gene group was fact)

          • alframseyssexdungeon

            No worries! In essence there is a gradual increase in the incidence of R1b1a2 (to be precise) from east to west. In the UK the highest incidence is to be found in Wales (as you would expect), but it is also extremely high in Cornwall, Devon, Somerset, Herefordshire, Cheshire, Lancashire and Cumbria (circa75%). Even in the East Midlands it is above 60% in those that can trace their forebears back two generations.

            Of course, I’m emphatically NOT saying that there’s a specific genetic component to Englishness / Britishness. To suggest there is would be to wander into dangerous territory. Instead, it is merely intended to make clear that current immigration situation is unprecedented – in direct contrast to the established (false) narrative of the left.

          • vieuxceps2

            “Wander into dangerous territory”-It would only be dangerous if it were true, so our masters deny it.

          • cmflynn

            Very interesting. Some while back I used to attend the three day Chartres pilgrimage every year along with several thousand others, mostly French. Groups walked according to their regions. It was very noticeable that the group from Brittainy, in appearance might have been ‘English’. This was not true of any other group. You would have guessed Alsace/Lorraine to have been German or Swiss, midi-Pyrennes looked a bit Spannish, Savoy looked more Italian etc. I believe, until the last few decades France was much more diverse than England which, like Brittainy was composed mostly of pre Celtic people

          • alframseyssexdungeon

            I think there’s some truth in that, and it can sometimes be possible to judge the book by its cover! However, phenotype (observable traits) and genotype (DNA sequence) don’t always match up. The overwhelming majority of people who can trace their ancestry back two generations to Britain will have a genetic code that is very mixed, but there will be a prevalence of certain ones in particular areas amongst a survey sample.

            Y-chromosome studies are extremely useful from a forensic point of view (even more so than matrilinear DNA) as the echoes of conquest and genocide tend to be most obvious. And this is why arguments for a genocide of indigenous Britons by Anglo-Saxon invaders are false.

            The overwhelming majority of British males (including in England) are directly linked down the paternal line to those who were here before any Anglo-Saxon set foot on the islands. This prevalence is highest on the Atlantic coast, from Cornwall to Cumbria, and lowest in East Anglia (as you would expect).

            Interestingly, however, from memory I recall learning that the earliest evidence of human inhabitation in the present day British Isles is at a site in Yorkshire.

          • Neil Saunders

            This research is highly controversial, and wasn’t even conducted by a professional geneticist, but by a paediatrician.

      • Colonel Mustard

        That 1,500 year old attempted justification for the race replacement programme instigated since 1997 has worn as thin as the paper separating Labour and the Tories. It is not credible and insults over 1,000 years of English history and the people who created the country we once lived in within living memory.

        You should be ashamed of it.

        • Martin Davies

          you seem to forget england isnt the only country or history on this island

          • Colonel Mustard

            No, I don’t. I was responding to Hegelman’s comment which was about England.

            So take it up with him.

            (And I would never write Wales as ‘wales’).

          • Ricayboy

            No you’ve got your Welsh history and you are welcome to it.

      • Liz Perrott

        not to mention the Normans ( my own paternal line) Vikings, Hugenots ( another branch of my family) Irish ( another branch) and every other mix. The Ancient Britons may have some claim to fame, but they were booted out to Wales by the Romans.

        • Kennybhoy

          “The Ancient Britons may have some claim to fame, but they were booted out to Wales by the Romans.”


        • justsomeone

          So perhaps you’re being told you just aren’t really English and don’t quite belong here. It’s ridiculous.

          • alframseyssexdungeon

            No. “Englishness” is a “cultural” construct not a genetic one. Just pointing out that the long-held concept of Anglo-Saxon genes = True English is cobblers.

          • justsomeone

            Yes, that’s what I was saying.

          • Neil Saunders

            I’d be careful about using Sykes or Oppenheimer as your authorities.

            1500 years of continuous Anglo-Saxon settlement in England is quite enough for the English to establish a territorial claim to their own nation, without indulging in fantasies about bloodlines stretching back to the Ice Age.

            I can understand why people might find the idea appealing, but it really isn’t necessary, and its scientific basis is far shakier than might be supposed, despite an appealing “sciency”-ness in the terminology.

          • alframseyssexdungeon

            Please don’t get me wrong, I’m not questioning “Englishness”. I am, indeed, English.

            Together, Sykes and Oppenheimer have conducted the largest DNA test ever performed in the UK. How you interpret the results is a matter for the individual, but it is clear that while there is an Anglo-Saxon imprint on the male population, it is not particularly extensive.

            Indeed, I contest that this is a good thing as it proves the Anglo-Saxons weren’t the ethnic-cleansing warrior nutcases some would have the world believe. Instead their legacy as a developed people – especially those in terms of agriculture and commerce – lives on and should be celebrated.

            The present day English do indeed have a “territorial claim”, but that is based on culture and history, not genetics.

          • Neil Saunders

            Genetics aside, one problem about Sykes and Oppenheimer is that the results of their research create more questions than they answer.

            How is it that the English language contains comparatively few Celtic words (and those it does are often relatively recent imports, such as “whisky”)? If there had been substantial numbers of Celts, one would expect English either to be an Anglo-Brythonic creole, or for Welsh to have survived alongside English (as Irish does, for instance, in Ireland).

            If male Anglo-Saxons had been compelled to take Celtic wives, again we might reasonably expect either creolisation and/or the survival of Welsh (remember the expression “mother tongue”), since women are overwhelmingly the early carers for and educators of children.

            Why is there such an abundance of Anglo-Saxon and Norse place-names in England, and such a relative dearth of Celtic ones (except for river names and the names of some larger towns and cities, which would already have been in international currency before the English arrived and settled)? Oddities, such as Aberford and Pen-y-Ghent stand out precisely because of their extreme rarity.

            Why is there a Celtic-ness about Wales, Scotland and Ireland that is quite absent from England, and that imparts a distinctive character to these nations?

            I think you are mistaken in assuming, as so many do (especially among civic nationalists), that culture is a phenomenon entirely independent of (and separable from) ethnicity. Of course people can come to assume a cultural identity that differs from that of their own ethnic origins, but only if there has been sufficient homogeneity and continuity to preserve that culture in the first place. The historically unprecedented scale and pace of mass immigration to Britain (and especially England) in recent decades is putting such homogeneity and continuity into serious jeopardy, which is the central point of this article.

          • alframseyssexdungeon

            “The historically unprecedented scale and pace of mass immigration to
            Britain (and especially England) in recent decades is putting such
            homogeneity and continuity into serious jeopardy, which is the central
            point of this article”. This I wholeheartedly agree on, although I would always contest that some cultures rub along well and compliment each other while others do not.

            As it happens, I don’t subscribe to the theory that culture is entirely independent of ethnicity. The former is central to the latter. Just to be clear!

            I think it also unfair to say that Celtic-ness (whatever that may constitute to different people and a word I dislike) is absent from parts of England. Devon and Cornwall certainly retain more than just elements of a Brythonic past, for example. And what about the prehistoric structures which form so much of our sense of place?

            Moreover, I contend that the reason for a lack of “ancient Britishness” in place names isn’t because of one people replacing another, but simply because the Anglo-Saxons brought a successful way of life and culture that was gradually adopted by native inhabitants, east to west.

            Furthermore, archaeological evidence (even that from metal detectorists) proves the existence of an underlying culture prior to Anglo-Saxon migration. It is the DNA evidence which shows that these people stayed where they were, joined by the newcomers, and provided the bedrock of our national DNA.

          • Neil Saunders

            Even Cornwall, which has abundant Celtic place-names, doesn’t feel anywhere near as Celtic as Wales, Scotland or Ireland. Devon doesn’t feel at all Celtic, to me, and I’ve often visited the place.

            To assume that the native Britons prudentially adopted Anglo-Saxon language and culture is to assume (quite apart from whether they survived in significant numbers at all) that they thought and behaved like modern people. It flies in the face of what most subject peoples do, which is to retain their culture, even if surreptitiously or in some kind of admixture with the alien, imposed culture.

            I remain unconvinced by the “DNA evidence” which seems at variance with observable phenomena (such as the complete linguistic and cultural domination of the Anglo-Saxons in England – but not elsewhere in the British Isles – together with the strange absence of Celtic survivals) but which nevertheless serves certain agendas.

            I’d certainly be the last person on earth to deny that British culture predominated before the conquest and settlement of what became England by the Anglo-Saxons and other Germanic invaders, which would account for the archeological evidence.

          • alframseyssexdungeon

            Cumbric was extinct by the early medieval period, and Cornish by the 19th (though the latter had all but ceased to be a thriving language centuries earlier). This at the very least, proves that the process to Anglo-Saxonisation (is that a term??!) was gradual but inexorable, and one which generally moved in a slow westerly direction.

            Your perceptions of what constitutes Celtic-ness (or Ancient Britishness as I would prefer to call it) are individual. You either see it or you don’t. Moreover, the idea that there is a complete absence of place names derived from Brythonic outside the far south west is also wrong.

            There are a number of rivers with similar names: Tamar, Tame (lots), Teme, etc, while the Avon is derived from Brythonic (“Afon”). Similarly, anywhere beginning with Pen such as Penketh (now part of Warrington in Cheshire).

          • Neil Saunders

            I think it likelier that Cornwall, being small and isolated (and not especially mountainous), was far more easily overrun and subjugated than, say, Wales.

            I doubt if my general sense of the Celtic-ness is exclusive to me; for what it’s worth (and I appreciate this sort of anecdotal evidence is of limited value) many people I know have reported something that seems very similar to me. (Incidentally, the reason that I write of Celtic-ness rather than, say, “Ancient Britishness” is because I wish to acknowledge the Gaelic as well as the Brythonic.)

            Of course there are occasional Celtic place-names in England, and I’ve specifically addressed the issue of river names (which would already have been in international currency). Elsewhere, they stand out precisely because they are so rare and anomalous in the areas in which they occur (such as Cheshire, although this county, of course, abuts onto Wales).

          • Damaris Tighe

            The question why there seems little Celtic linguistic footprint in England, at least in the east, is looked at by Oppenheimer in Chap 7.

            It’s being mooted that the pre-Roman tribes of eastern & south-eastern England, previously assumed to be Celtic speakers, did in fact speak a Germanic language. It’s far from clear, for example, whether the continental tribe of the same name as the British Belgae were Celtic or Germanic speakers. It has been suggested that this accounts for the idiosyncratic ‘anglo-saxon’ of Beowulf.

            There is an Oxford research archaeologist who has done some work on this, but unfortunately he is a very poor writer & his book disappointing.

          • Neil Saunders

            It’s a fantastically improbable theory, Damaris. A classic example of cognitive dissonance.

        • Llamedos2

          Liz : you and are (and probably most replying on this site) are more entitled to be in the UK, than any immigrants since the war. However, as things stand at the moment it is likely that we will have to fight for ownership! Getting out of the EU would settle some issues.

        • alframseyssexdungeon

          Hi Liz. Your assertion “The Ancient Britons may have some claim to fame, but they were booted out to Wales by the Romans” is not true. Please see my post in reply to Llamedos (above) relating to haplogroup R1b1a2.

        • Damaris Tighe

          Have you actually read the other posts in this thread showing how this view of history has been discredited?

    • Hegelman

      Indians often speak better English and know more about British history and literature than white “natives’.

      • Arthur Ascii

        True, and some Indians consider that British rule in Indian was, on balance, a good thing and that modern India has benefited from what the British colonialists brought.

        Of course, this fact doesn’t sit well with those who like to harp on about the unquestionable evils of colonialism.

        • willshome

          Yes indeed, famine and exploitation was a small price to pay for Shakespeare and the railways. Of course countries we didn’t conquer got those too…

          • Arthur Ascii

            Go and listen to some Indians

          • Terry Field

            Poisonous little liar.

          • Nicky Christian

            Famine had nothing to do with the British in India. Obviously you know nothing about history; or just choose to ignore it. Britian sends enough aid to India and provides them with plenty of work at the expense of our own people.

          • Ovida Yosef

            If you want a real instance of British caused Famines look no further than Ireland and Scotland

          • Arturo Franks

            Were they caused by the Jews do you think?

          • Cj

            Yeah because people in England have never starved.

          • vieuxceps2

            I understand the potato blight caused famine in Ireland. Not heard of famine in Scotland,though. Did the haggis harvest fail?

          • Ovida Yosef

            During the Highland clearances,1790’s

          • Kennybhoy

            Famine and exploitation existed before the British Raj and continue to exist to this day. You are a complete ignoramus.

          • Ed  

            There’s an interesting correlation between “was your country British” and “does your country suck today?”. It’s quite different than that for any other colonial power. Interesting.

          • vieuxceps2

            France for examle? Italy perhaps? Spain maybe? All ex-imperial powers. Flourishing,eh?

          • Ed  

            Exactly. They weren’t British colonies, and so they’re now in trouble. You’ve made my point precisely. Thank you.

          • rtj1211

            Famine in India will almost always occur due to a failure of monsoon rains. Whist an India-based British meteorologist was the first to identify a correlation between monsoon activity and what he termed the ‘Southern Oscillation’ (namely an index measuring pressure differences between Darwin and Tahiti), I don’t think any British administrators had developed HAARP technology sufficiently to control monsoon patterns to induce droughts and crop failures.

            I’m open to evidence-based enlightenment of course……

          • evad666

            Evidence based enlightenment from the left wingers? Come on get real.

          • Ed_Burroughs

            Your second sentence completely refutes the implication of your first.

        • Kennybhoy

          I do business there. In my estimation a significant minority recognize and will publicly acknowledge the positive side of British rule. Just about every educated Indian of my acquaintance for instance, will readily admit that without the periods of Mogul and British rule India today would likely be a collection of variously sized countries divided by language, culture, etc. Just like Europe.

        • rtj1211

          Uusally those Indians were not the ones who suffered. Plenty of investment bankers benefit from Britain being a US protectorate, after all…….

      • Ricayboy

        Yes – and we’ve got our politically correct, dumbed down education system to thank for that.

        Not sure why you sneer at the word ‘native’. I am an Englishman born in England so I am native by any definition of the word. Every ethnic and cultural group has the right to a homeland. This is mine. I fail to see why anybody would have a problem with that concept.

        • Ed  

          You’re white. You’re not allowed a native homeland. This is one of the reasons immigration must be expanded.

          • willshome

            Pillock. Mid-16th century English. Look it up.

          • Ed  

            I know exactly what a pillock is. I believe I’m talking to one right now.

          • phaasch .

            I think he was being ironic. At least I hope so.

          • Ed  

            I am. Labour wasn’t.

          • Carl

            my .om makes $78 /hr on the internet . She has been laid off for five months but last month her pay check was $19431 just working on the internet for a few hours. see this;.At least

          • Ed  


          • Mc

            Sounds like his mom is a highly paid hooker catering to the granny porn market.

          • Frank

            The political Labour Party hates the idea of a homeland, or that of a national soul – they ridicule white van man and see themselves as more enlightened. I imagine that they must be thoroughly confused as to why anyone would put their life on the line for “Britain”.

          • Ed  

            Partially confused, partially angered.

          • rtj1211

            I”m not sure I’d put my life on the line for ‘Britain’ because ‘Britain’ made darn sure that the first 24 years of my life in this country were absolute hell. I won’t stop you, who clearly fitted in well, doing your patriotic duty, but I’ve always been treated better by foreigners than I have been by the British.

          • akrasia

            that’s one hell of a contention. Elaborate or withdraw the smear.

          • Frank

            I am sorry about your initial experience in Britain. Have to say that I am older now, and I wouldn’t rush to put my life on the line for anything anymore.

          • global city

            also internationalist. A lot of internationalist memes are virulently anti white people, culture and influence. all of our ‘mainstream’ parties are fully paid up to the internationalist agenda, though some of them are too dumb to realise precisely what this means.

          • gelert

            Michael Foot avoided service in WW2 because of asthma. His smoking never interfered with his “asthma”. He was probably also a KGB useful idiot. He never sued the Russian who said that; preferring the easier target of the ST.

          • Mike Samuibungy

            I think the whole situation is to do with economics rather than any kind of esoteric philosophy of getting rid of patriotism, setting an internationalist agenda, mixing the races etc. Bottom line, too much immigration yes… but why? Cheap labour with no thought as to the effects on the poorest. This was done for the richest in our country to get even richer. All of the parties would do the same because it is best for growth and that is what the politicians want. This is not some anti-white, anti-British crap… this is profit over people pure and simple… that would be far too easy to solve. This is what capitalism is based on and if we just blindly do what those at the top want us to (as we have done for at least 40 odd years now) then of course we will end up with a country, a political and economic system that does not do anything for the rest of us

          • Damaris Tighe

            Our politicians are fixated on the economic model. They see Britain as a plc which needs workers, anyone from anywhere. They don’t see Britain as an ethnic & historical nation state.

        • willshome

Fate jumbled them together, God knows how;
What e’er they were they’re true-born English now.

          • Ricayboy

            Yes, the English have had a mixed ancestry like most other nations but they still fulfil all the criteria to be considered an ethnic and cultural group according to the United Nations.

          • fatslaphead

            “Ad hominem”

            Now you throw in some Latin.

            Ho Ho, Come on Brian, you have to realise that putting in some latin does not make you look superior no matter how much you would like it to look that way.

            “who can’t write literate English and is useless at basic arithmetic. LOL.”

            Oh, Brian that is so very silly and exposes your faulty thought processes.

            The world loves a trier, Brian but you have to know when you should stop before you embarrass yourself again.

        • Ovida Yosef

          Ricayboy,I suggest you dont dig to deep into your ancestry,you may get a shock

          • Ricayboy

            Not sure why that why the English have the temerity to assert their identity there are always snidey remarks about ancestry. Nobody is claiming that the English are ‘ethnically pure’ any more than any other nation. To suggest that the English don’t have a right to assert their identity because they are not deemed ‘ethnically pure’ is repugnant.

            Ovida, I wonder how you identify yourself. Does your identity depend on a sense of belonging to a particular nation/ethnic group? My guess is that you live in the UK but your cultural identity belongs to that of another nation. I’m pretty sure that you wouldn’t consider yourself English as you see it as an ethnic identity rather than a civic one. Now, suppose I made comments about your ancestry, how would you feel? Suppose I told your people that they had no right to a homeland because they were not ‘ethnically pure’?

            I wouldn’t be surprised if I had some foreign ancestors and even if I did it wouldn’t stop me being English. My friend has a Welsh dad and an English mum yet he doesn’t feel less Welsh because of his ancestry. The difference was that in the past relatively small numbers of immigrants came to England and assimilated into the English population. Today we have so many immigrants that many refuse to assimilate or think of themselves as English in any way.

            Every nation is a mixed bag ethnically, but there are still distinct cultural and ethnic groups. The United Nations make it very clear that every ethnic group should have a homeland. It sound to me that you are denying that the English are an ethnic group and that they (unlike every other ethnic group) have no rights to a homeland.


          • Ovida Yosef

            Ricayboy,a good book for you to read ‘Bloody Foriegners’ by Robert Winder ISBN 0-349-11566-4
            It may change your ideas about immigration

          • Ricayboy

            Not interested Ovida, because all these attempts to exaggerate England’s history of immigration are deliberately made by people with axes to grind and agendas to push – namely the justification of the unprecedented mass immigration of the last twenty years.

            If you want to claim that the ‘British’ are uniquely ‘mongrel’ let’s start scrutinising other nations and see if they have any better claims to be more ethnically pure.

          • Llamedos2

            Ovida – with name like Ovida Yosef would it be reasonable to assume you are not English? And I think the whole point of this very intelligent article is to speak to the English about how they might feel about being English and the traditions and culture. As the article has indicated, it has become almost a hanging offence to speak of the English nature, the soul of the nation and our nationality. Speak up indigenous peoples, let our MP’s know how we feel – and be proud to speak up.

          • Smug_b

            Nowhere in the article does it say it is speaking to the English. Britain is not England and the British are not only the English. These terms are not synonyms.

          • rtj1211

            No, but we’ve had 50+ years of SNP, Plaid Cymru and the Northern Irish asserting their ethnic identities, but the English have always been subliminally told to keep their peckers well covered.

            Until the English are comfortable with who they are, talking about ‘common british identity’ is a pretty fruitless task in emotional terms.

          • Smug_b

            And, we’ve had 300+ years of the English thinking ‘British’ is just another way of saying ‘English’, as if Scotland is merely ‘Scotshire’. The UK is supposedly a union of nations, not ‘Greater England’. This is one of the many reasons why there’s been the rise of nationalist feelings in Scotland and Wales (Northern Ireland’s a different matter). This is why there are such parties as the SNP and Plaid Cymru; because the UK is not just ‘England with bits’.

            I’m all for the nations of the UK self-identifying as English, Scottish, Welsh and Northern Irish – we should all be proud of our individual national heritage, as well as our collective British heritage. We have a lot to be proud of – I know it’s the in-thing to beat ourselves up over our colonial past, but we did collectively create the modern world.

          • evad666

            Surely the SNP has become the focus of white working class resentment in Scotland having been ignored and impoverished while the left wing intelligentsia have preferred to assuage their post colonial angst with immigration.

          • Smug_b

            1) The SNP are left wing, and 2) there are plenty of non-whites both in and voting for the SNP. 3) Immigration is far less of an issue in Scotland, because (a) there are less immigrants per head of population than south of the border (where I live there’s something like 0.8% of the population being immigrants, though the numbers are higher in the Central Belt), and (b) most people who come here integrate fairly quickly into Scottish culture, whilst simultaneously retaining their cultural roots. 4) when I spoke of our colonial past, I was talking about how the media and even UK government seem to try to shame us about how bad we were, without ever seeming to acknowledge anything that we contributed to the world.

          • vieuxceps2

            It is many decades since I wrote”British” as my nationality.I have been English for the best part of half a century.Why would any rational person choose to be Welsh ,Scotch or N.Irish?

          • Ovida Yosef

            Born in England,served in the Royal Navy,and now have my English pension

          • rtj1211

            Must say I always hoot with laughter when the ‘patriotic Brit’ points the metaphorical gun to the hun.

            After all, we declare allegiance to a descendant of Huns, don’t we?!

          • akrasia

            No we don’t and he did no such thing. The irony for you is that as our Head of State she has subsumed (along with her recent antecedents) her German ancestry to perfectly integrate into our British culture and heritage! Must pee off the Bosch no end.
            What you do in the mirror is your business.

          • Phil T Tipp

            +1 Bingo! Saxe-Coburg und Gotha – filthy Huns all of ’em.

          • Bernard Koppes

            So true … they even had to change their names to cover it all up. 😉

          • Damaris Tighe

            I don’t know exactly what point you’re making. All ethnic groups have the right to their own nation state. The justification, for example, for the State of Israel is based on the same justification for a majority native UK. I say this as a descendent of 19th century immigrants.

          • Ovida Yosef

            The State of Israel was declared on 14 May 1948,against the wishes of more than 60% of the existing population,by a mainly immigant community of first generation,I myself am a second generation immigrant to the UK,this does not give me the right to declare a ‘nation state’ within the UK for my people,and for that ‘nation state’ to totaly dominate the entire country

        • fatslaphead

          “Yes – and we’ve got our politically correct, dumbed down education system to thank for that.”

          And what a crying shame that the tories have done almost all of the damage.

          Labour are crap and don’t have any shame either.

          • rtj1211

            I have to say that having experienced English and some ‘foreign’ education between 1967 and 1983 that British education was fairly ‘dumbed down’ 40 years ago.

          • fatslaphead

            that is interesting.

            so the sixties with their O leve;s were dumbed down?

            Why do you say that and what iayour evidence for that?

          • GnosticBrian

            “O leve;s”, “iayour”?

            40 years ago would be the mid-seventies – perhaps rtj1211 has a valid point if you underwent secondary education post 1975…

          • fatslaphead

            it is never good to criticise errors which are clearly typos..

            It makes you look as bad as your infantile last paragraph.

          • GnosticBrian

            It is never good to begin a sentence with a small letter – it gives the impression that you lack a decent education.

          • fatslaphead

            you are trying, but failing miserably, to make yourself look clever but you you chose to “pick flies”.

            each time you write here you just make yourself look foolish.

            why not just chuck it old chap.

            today is not your day.

          • GnosticBrian

            Ad hominem attacks from the slaphead who can’t write literate English and is useless at basic arithmetic. LOL.

          • fatslaphead

            “Ad hominem”

            Now you throw in some Latin.

            Ho Ho, Come on Brian, you have to realise that putting in some latin does not make you look superior no matter how much you would like it to look that way.

            “who can’t write literate English and is useless at basic arithmetic. LOL.”

            Oh, Brian that is so very silly and exposes your faulty thought processes.

            The world loves a trier, Brian but you have to know when you should stop before you embarrass yourself again.

          • GnosticBrian


          • fatslaphead

            Она занимает одно знать один

          • GnosticBrian


            It seemed the appropriate observation given that it had taken you four days to come back with a rambling illiterate nonsense – not what one expects from a master of wit and repartee. But par for the course for an illiterate and innumerate slaphead.

          • fatslaphead

            Brian you do write tosh.

            Unfortunately my response to your drivel became attached to another poster.

            I have now attached it to the intended post.

            You obviously do not know what “rambling” means.

            Do try to use words that you understand.

            And you do not understand the word illiterate either.

            I am sure that you understand quite a lot of words now. if you have another two words to use it will help you in the long run.

            Just find their meaning before you use them.

            Incorrect use of words make you look very foolish.

            You clearly know a good deal less than your name claims.

            Perhaps you should change it to an accurate one.

          • GnosticBrian

            “Unfortunately my response to your drivel became attached to another poster”.

            Perhaps your IT skills are on a par with your literacy and numeracy?

            Do you till contend that the 1960s were only 40 years ago?

          • fatslaphead

            “Do you till contend that the 1960s were only 40 years ago?”

            i never said they were.

            And if you were able to read and extract the meaning held within those words you would know that I did not say that.

            For a “gnostic” you do not know much do you?

            And it shows in your infantile posts.

          • GnosticBrian

            Illiterate, innumerate, lacking IT skills and a failing memory, par for the course for a slaphead.

            rtj1211 wrote “…education was dumbed down 40 years ago…” and you responded: “so (sic) the sixties with their O leve;s (sic) were dumbed down?”.

          • fatslaphead

            Oh what a poor show Brian to use selective quotes and out of their context.

            rtj1211 wrote

            “I have to say that having experienced English and some ‘foreign’ education between 1967 and 1983 that British education was fairly ‘dumbed down’ 40 years ago.”

            Since he referred to the time from the sixties to 1983 and that “British education was fairly ‘dumbed down’ 40 years ago.” it is reasonable to ask if he was including the sixties as being part of the start of the process.

            He was either stating that the education system was already dumbed down by 1974 or that the process of “dumbing down” had started in 1975.

            And dogsnob suggested that itt started in 1968.

            Thus my question was a fair one, despite the unfortunate typos..

            I know you are not the person i described above and i am not the person you described above either.

          • GnosticBrian

            You accused me of not understanding the English language and there you go…of course a quote is selective. When did you last see a quote from a book or a speech or whatever that was the whole of the book, speech, whatever?

            You appear to lack English comprehension. rtj1211 specifically tied the dumbing down to “40 years ago”. Your response was to posit that rtj1211 was referring to the sixties. I simply pointed out that the sixties was (and remains) more than 40 years ago. None of your wriggling and dissembling alters the basic facts; your numeracy and literacy leave a great deal to be desired. If you had any grace, you would let it go.

          • fatslaphead


            It is quite simple if the education system was dumbed down in 1975 as rj stated then it had to have started at sometime.

            Taking the post as a whole and the way that rj coupled 1967 with 1983 it is a valid question to ask if rj included the sixties with the dumbing down.

            Of course he might have meant that the whole system was dumbed down in 1975 but for that to happen in just one year is too much to be credible.

            Do learn to read as opposed to just decoding words.

            My English is fine and so is my Mathematics.

            the rest of your last post is disappointing in tone.

          • GnosticBrian

            Still wiggling and dissembling.

            I am surprised that someone with your towering intellect has not tied rtj1211’s observation to the switch from GCE to GCSE which took place in 1975.

          • fatslaphead

            “Still wiggling and dissembling.”

            You are still spouting twaddle I see.

            “I am surprised that someone with your towering intellect has not tied rtj1211’s observation to the switch from GCE to GCSE which took place in 1975.”

            Well, I would never describe my intellect as towering (because it isn’t), however I would always wish to keep on getting my facts straight!

            GCSEs were not introduced in 1975.

            They were first examined in 1988.

            You are not very good with numbers and reading are you.

          • GnosticBrian

            Evidently you have an arcane interest in the subject – are you a teacher? CSE, GCSE, compulsory exams or optional, whatever – the mid-1970s marked the start of a serious dumbing down of UK education that continued until the estimable Mr Gove came on nthe scene.

            On the subject of numbers, I can still prove that the eigenvectors of a Hermitian matrix form a complete, orthonormal set.

          • fatslaphead

            If you have ever seen a Maths exam paper for 16 year olds from the end of the 19th century I think you would agree that it is much more demanding than any GCSEs and O levels in the 60s.

            It is difficult to say when dumbing down happened because there seems to have been so many times that it has occurred.

            Certainly the A level Maths papers in the late 70s were less demanding than the ones in the early sixties..

            Certainly the reforms of Baker and Major contributed to dumbing down.

            I used to be a teacher. I am not one anymore, thank god.

            “On the subject of numbers, I can still prove that the eigenvectors of a Hermitian matrix form a complete, orthonormal set.”

            well I can remember those names from my Mathematics degree but it was all so long ago and these days the only reason I remember my name is because Mrs Fatslaphead shouts it at me everyday!

          • GnosticBrian

            A 19th century paper would certainly test modern students (and teachers) arithmetic to breaking point. But the “mathematics” skills of vicrorians was very restricted – calculus, group theory, complex numbers for example would have been beyond them.

            You offer conclusive evidence for the old maxim that “those whio can, do and those who can’t, teach”. I read mathematics because it was a subject that did not require a good memory; either you understood or you didn’t. And that understanding has remained for more than 50 years.

          • fatslaphead

            “But the “mathematics” skills of vicrorians was very restricted – calculus, group theory, complex numbers for example would have been beyond them.”

            Of course it depends on which Victorians we are talking about.

            Some were well and highly educated but most were not.

            My great grandfather cried as a child because his parents could not afford to send him to school. Fortunately a miss Guy paid the penny a week it cost and he went to school.

            I am sure that if my school pals and I could “do” the Calculus in the 60s then Mathematically able Victorians would certainly have been able to do so.

            And of course they would have been able to understand other Mathematics that had been discovered or created at that time.

            “I read mathematics because it was a subject that did not require a good memory; either you understood or you didn’t. And that understanding has remained for more than 50 years.”

            there is so much mathematics that you have to have a good memory to do it properly.

            Of course memory is not everything, but without it you will be forever having to look things up and relearn it.

            “either you understood or you didn’t.”

            There is truth in that but understanding is not always that black and white.

            understanding deepens when solutions to problems are explored.

            many a time i have done something in Maths and whilst not understanding I still did the process correctly. Understanding came later.

            “either you understood or you didn’t. And that understanding has remained for more than 50 years.”

            Which indicates that you have a good memory too.

            “You offer conclusive evidence for the old maxim that “those whio can, do and those who can’t, teach”.”

            I have heard that said many times.

            It is, of course, a cliche used by people who want to deliver an insult but are too lazy or thick to think of something original.

            Now I know that you do not have to be a genius to be a teacher because i certainly am not a genius.

            However if anyone looks at the quote it makes no sense at all.

            No one can teach someone to do something they cannot do themselves. To suggest otherwise is unintelligent.

            Ps In case you are wondering, I haven’t bothered to point out all of your typos because it is unproductive and after all it is a typo. I do not need to prove my intelligence or understanding or knowledge.

          • GnosticBrian

            “Of course it depends on which Victorians we are talking about”. Try to remember what you wrote; I was responding to your specific point about 16 year-olds and the exams that they sat in the 19th Century.

            You may blame your poor memory for your inadequate mathematical skills but I repeat that I chose the subject mostly because it did NOT require a good memory. Understanding is key. Memory is NOT the same as understanding. Simple turning the handle on a sausage machine to produce results is NOT mathematics.

            Oh, and please do bear in mind that some “cliches” are true nothwithstanding having aquired cliche staus in popular culture.

          • fatslaphead

            “Try to remember what you wrote; I was responding to “your specific point about 16 year-olds and the exams that they sat in the 19th Century.

            You should try to remember what you wrote.

            “calculus, group theory, complex numbers or example would have been beyond them”.

            It would have been beyond the generality of 16 year old victorians.

            When you refer to such topics you have, perhaps unwittingly, widened the age range considerably, couple that with your reference to “vicrorians” which neglects to specify their age then you clearly allow for an older age range to be considered.

            “You may blame your poor memory for your inadequate mathematical skills”


            My memory is getting worse but my Mathematics is still more than adequate.

            Mathematics is an extraordinarily varied and stunningly marvellous thing. There is more Mathematics than any one person could possibly know now.

            And knowing is the key word.

            Understanding is important. You cannot know Mathematics without understanding it and you cannot know Mathematics if you do not even know it exists because your memory has let the knowledge leak away.

            Of course Mathematics involves a good memory.

            You cannot know something if you cannot remember what it is.

            Someone with severe Alzheimers will forget most of the things they once knew.

            Now it could be that someone knows their subject very well but finds other things difficult to recall.

            Your assertion that “it did NOT require a good memory.” is illogical and bogus.

            “Memory is NOT the same as understanding. Simple turning the handle on a sausage machine to produce results is NOT mathematics.

            That is true but so obvious it does not need to be said.

            “Oh, and please do bear in mind that some “cliches” are true nothwithstanding having aquired cliche staus in popular culture.”

            ““Cliches remind and reassure us that we’re not alone, that others have trod this ground long ago.” ― Miguel Syjuco”

            Some cliches may well be true but it does not mean that anyone should just lazily follow the ignorant and misinformed and just trot them out, especially when the cliche is so obviously untrue.

            Try to be original.

            Oh and I do need to correct one of your spellings.

            You wrote

            “the estimable Mr Gove” it should, of course, be

            “the execrable Mr Gove”.

            You almost had it right, however you will know it for the future as long as you do not forget it.

          • GnosticBrian

            If that is the best that you can do, you really should stick to teaching. A real world job would be too much for you.

          • fatslaphead

            All you do with comments like that is light up a big sign that says “Brian is very insecure”.

          • GnosticBrian

            Your armchair psychology is as bad as your knowledge of Mathematics.

            Has it yet dawned that discovering / inventing / developing new branches of Mathematics is NOT an exercise in memory? Whereas parroting the work of others is?

            I can only assume that you have not published any original Mathematical works in peer reviewed journals.

          • fatslaphead

            your first sentence is a lazy attempt at an insult.

            and as usual it doesn’t work.

            there is no point in saying try harder. i can see that that is the best you can do.

            try taking something else up.

            something you might do well in.

            i’m not sure what but there must be something you can do.

            You are still harping on about the same thing.

            To be a Mathematician you have to be extraordinarily gifted.

            Most people are not capable of this level of thought.

            I am a Mathematical mechanic and nothing more.

            A Mathematician is like a concert pianist in comparison to a player in a public house.

            A Mathematician has to know Mathematics so well they do not have to think about it.

            They are stupendously intelligent but if there Mathematical knowledge is poor they will find it difficult to function.

            Without their good memory their knowledge is compromised.

            I am beginning to think that you do not know the importance of memory.

            Of course the creation and development of Mathematics is much more than an exercise in memory but without knowledge stored in their memory a Mathematician is stuck.

            And doing Maths is always more than an exercise of the parrot.

            As people get older they do forget things.

            Perhaps you should try some ginkco

          • GnosticBrian

            On the contrary, my first sentence was a direct response to your assertion: “Brian is very insecure”. Seems, like bullies everywhere, you can dish it out but can’t take it.
            As I thought, you are not a professional Mathematician – I am.

          • fatslaphead

            Your comment might well be a response to my assertion. However much you deny it it was a lazy and weak attempt at an insult.

            And describing me as a bully is laughable.

            You were the one who was abusive.

            You can dish it out but you can’t take it; the response of bullies is to whine that they are being bullied.

            If you are a Mathematician then I fear that things are worse than I thought.
            You are illogical. You do not know that you have to know Mathematics thoroughly to be a Mathematician and you cannot do that with a poor memory.

            If you are a professional Mathematician then do your clients know that you are so lacking in understanding?

          • GnosticBrian

            There’s that bad memory of yours yet again – you started the ad hominem attacks.
            Just because I disagree with you does not make me illogical. You really need to loosen up. Just because you are no good at Mathematics doesn’t make you a bad person.

          • fatslaphead

            your judgement really is faulty Brian.

            you started the unpleasantness and you are still trying.

            “Just because I disagree with you does not make me illogical.”

            you are right. Disagreeing ith me does not make you illogical. That is caused by something else.

            “Just because you are no good at Mathematics doesn’t make you a bad person.”

            Again you are right. You are not a bad person Brian, but you would benefit from a course in logic.

          • GnosticBrian

            Scroll up and you will see that your assertion as to who started the ad hominem attacks is factually incorrect.

            It is becoming ever clearer that you know little or nothing about Mathematics. Kurt Gödel established that it is impossible to find / create a complete and consistent set
            of axioms for all mathematics. There are undecidable statements notwithstanding your assertions about logic.

            I also refer you to Russell’s paradox; some formulations inevitably lead to contradictions that cannot be addressed by a resort to logic.

            If you disagree, then kindly let me have your solution to the “Catalogue of all catalogues that do not contain themselves” problem. A Field’s medal beckons you.

          • fatslaphead

            If i am factually incorrect I would like to know what it is “That I said”.

            “It is becoming ever clearer that you know little or nothing about Mathematics”

            I never said I knew a lot. Indeed I have forgotten huge amounts of it.

            Indeed I described myself as a Mathematical mechanic.

            It is good to be reminded of some of the personalities in Mathematics so I thank you for that but those references are really non relevant.

            It is no good asking me to prove much these days unless it is my date of birth!

            The Mathematical language, whilst enjoyable to read, does not prove anything about anyone really.

            Who knows why Nobel left out a Mathematics prize? However challenging me to prove

            “”Catalogue of all catalogues that do not contain themselves”problem.”

            when it has defeated talented Mathematicians is pointless.

            If you are so good why not have a go yourself!

          • GnosticBrian

            I’m not your fag, scoll up and read what you said.

            Why would I try to disprove that on which I relied to defeat your argument.

            Those who can, do; those who can’t, teach (and very badly I expect).

          • fatslaphead

            Oh dear Brian.

            Your insecurities are showing again.

            If you are correct then you should be willing to show me the offending post.

            “Those who can, do; those who can’t, teach (and very badly I expect).”

            Still trotting out the same tired, old, lazy and clichéd nonsense as well I see.

            And your negativity is just not good enough either.

            Can you not think for your self and be original?

            Probably not.

            See if you can be more positive in future. There are many self help books around that might help you.

            Clearly you name is meant to be ironic.

            Presumably you must have read it somewhere and copied it.

          • GnosticBrian

            More amateur psychology from the fake mathematician.

          • fatslaphead

            You really do need to see someone about your mental problem

            You say you are not my fag.

            You are not my fag but you could be someone else’s boyfriend, for all I know.

            Then you trot our more tired and dreary cliches.

            And now you call me a “fake mathematician”.

            You have a serious problem Brian.

            I have never ever claimed to be a Mathematician.

            Perhaps you are getting your self mixed up with me.

            It was you who said you were a Mathematician.

            Brian please get help before your delusions completely take over and ruin whatever is left of your life.

          • GnosticBrian

            More pseudo-psychology from the innumerate would be mathematician with the bad memory.

            As I’ve pointed out before, what you consider a cliche can, nonetheless, be true; as it is in this case and as it applies to you.

            As an example of “original thought” do you have a Doctorate that required the completion of a thesis containing original work; have you published original work in peer reviewed journals? I have a Doctorate and have published peer-reviewed papers.

          • fatslaphead

            I do respect the fact that you have a doctorate.

            I suppose that you earned that when you were much younger and not suffering the sad delusions that you show in your later posts.

            i wanted to take a Ph.D after my masters degree but sadly I just could not afford the fee. I will have to leave that for my next life.

            Of course the vast majority of research for Ph.Ds does not really change the world much if at all.

            It is a tremendous personal achievement.

            I am past it now.

            Although it would appear that you have gone further along the “going gaga” route than I have.

            i wonder if seeing your doctor again would help you.

            You do appear to need help.

          • GnosticBrian

            More insults and amatuer psychology and all because I corrected your arithmetic fail.

            By the way, I still publish papers in peer reviewed journals.

          • fatslaphead

            Congratulations on getting yourself published .

            The question remains though.
            have you made the world a better place through those publications.

            Brian you invite negative comments when you keep trotting out your nonsense,

            And my arithmetic is fine.

            It is your reading that is faulty.

            they do say that many of those who are really good at Mathematics aren’t that good at understanding others.

            maybe that is your problem.

          • GnosticBrian

            You must have been a rubbish teacher; standing up in front of the class and tell all those keen and eager youngsters “Nothing that you ever do will make the world a better place” – inspirational, not!

            Anyone who thinks that going back 40 years takes us to the 1960s cannot honestly claim that their arithmetic is fine.

            I have never claimed to understand others – the human mind is far too complex for any one to claim real understanding of how it works.

          • fatslaphead

            “You must have been a rubbish teacher”.

            Wrong again Brian.

            My last head described me as brilliant!

            “”Nothing that you ever do will make the world a better place””

            Wrong again Brian.

            I used to tell the kids that exams were important but what they do after they leave school is more important; that everyone of us is important.

            “Anyone who thinks that going back 40 years takes us to the 1960s cannot honestly claim that their arithmetic is fine.”

            and that is where you are wrong again Brian.

            I did not do that.

            “I have never claimed to understand others – the human mind is far too complex for any one to claim real understanding of how it works.”

            I do not understand why some people think the way they do either.

            For example why does someone, on the face of it with above average IQ, keep repeating the same wrong accusation.

            It is beyond me Brian.

          • GnosticBrian

            Simply scroll up and and you will see that your claims are counterfactual.

            You preach extensively but don’t put the sentiments into practice.

          • fatslaphead

            I have asked you to identify the words you found to be offensive.

            You refused.

            I do not recall using anything offensive (to begin with anyway).

            “You preach extensively but don’t put the sentiments into practice.”

            Well I do try but it seems like we both fail at that!

          • GnosticBrian

            As I’ve observed before, your memory is as bad as your arithmetic.

            Your response to my first post in this thread was to call me “infantile”. So you can drop the bit about “to begin with anyway”.

          • fatslaphead

            “Your response to my first post in this thread was to call me “infantile”.”

            That is not abuse.

            It was an accurate description at the time.

            Furthermore you continue to conduct yourself in an infantile way.

            For example

            “your memory is as bad as your arithmetic.”

            And whilst my memory is nowhere near as good as it was my arithmetic is still fine.

            Your tendency to keep repeating the same incorrect statement does not make it true.

          • GnosticBrian

            Your use of “infantile” was abusive and offensive. As a teacher, you ought to know that it is the recipient who gets to classify whether language used is or is not offensive to them. You may consider it perfectly in order, for example, to use the “N-word” but a person of colour will, rightly, take considerable offence if such an epithet is directed at them.

            I notice that whenever I point out an error (and you do make a lot) your goto response is personal abuse. Perhaps it has becomed so natural that you don’t notice it? An armchair psycholgist might think that you had anger issues.

            And your arithmetic is bad. Lieing about it will not change the fact.
            rjt1211 wrote:
            “…that British education was fairly ‘dumbed down’ 40 years ago”.
            You replied:
            “so (sic) the sixties with their O leve;s (sic) were dumbed down?”
            Therefore you calculate that the sixties were 40 years ago showing that your arithmetic skills are deficient. QED.

          • fatslaphead

            My use of the word infantile was clearly not abusive.

            It is not a complimentary word at all but it is a description.

            “you ought to know that it is the recipient who gets to classify whether language used is or is not offensive to them.”

            Of course that is true. You must know that there are people who take offense “at the drop of a hat”.

            “You may consider it perfectly in order, for example, to use the “N-word” but a person of colour will, rightly, take considerable offence if such an epithet is directed at them.”

            That is non relevant.

            I know I make errors from time to time.

            I will admit to any such errors.

            Not to do so is to react like you do and try to insist black is white.

            “your goto response is personal abuse.”.

            is yet more nonsense.

            “An armchair psychologist might think that you had anger issues.”

            I cannot be held responsible for other people’s thoughts, however misguided, foolish or deranged.

            “And your arithmetic is bad. Lieing about it will not change the fact.”

            My arithmetic is fine. your understanding is not fine.

            That is the truth and it is not I who is lying!

            Now read this carefully Brian and I mean all of it, Brian.

            rjt1211 wrote

            “I have to say that having experienced English and some ‘foreign’ education between 1967 and 1983 that British education was fairly ‘dumbed down’ 40 years ago.”

            rjt1211 referred to his/her education from 1967 to 1983.

            Do notice that 1967 is in the time frame.

            Furthermore rjt1211 asserted that

            “British education was fairly ‘dumbed down’ 40 years ago.”.

            which is open to interpretation.

            Does British education was fairly ‘dumbed down’ 40 years ago. mean that the education system was dumbed down during 1975 or that it was dumber down by the time that 1975 had arrived?

            I responded with

            “that is interesting.

            so the sixties with their O leve;s were dumbed down?

            Why do you say that and what is your evidence for that?”

            It follows that i thought that rjt1211’s comment was of interest.

            It also follows that rjt1211 might well have been refering to 60s as well.

            When anyone quotes another they make a selection, however your selection is designed just to make it appear that I thought that 40 years ago was in the 60s.

            That is not a good thing to do is it Brian?

            a careful reading of my words (or jewels of wisdom, as some people might consider them) would reveal that you have made a very simple mistake.

            “Therefore you calculate that the sixties were 40 years ago showing that your arithmetic skills are deficient.”

            is wrong.

            It indicates that your ability to read and extract meaning is not up to scratch.

            veritas vos liberabit.

            ad infinitum, et ultra.

          • GnosticBrian

            You wrote: “It makes you look as bad as your infantile last paragraph”. What was infantile in the offending paragraph?

            In your next post you call me foolish.

            Then I was “very silly” and had “faulty” thought processes and was embarrassing myself.

            You are the originator of the personal insults and you did so from the outset.

            Your verbal gymastics on the “40 years ago” point are worthy of David Willetts. If rtj1211 “might well have been refering to 60s as well” he would plainly have said so; he’s not the long winded type.

            The problem is that you simply cannot accept errors on your part being highlighted.

          • fatslaphead

            Brian you are still writing nonsense.

            In what are you not being
            “The problem is that you simply cannot accept errors on your part being highlighted.”

            And you are wrong yet again, Brian.

            I hope your Mathematics is not as full of errors and misunderstandings.

            If and when I make a mistake I am more than happy to admit it.

            Clearly you aren’t.

          • GnosticBrian

            Glad to see that you were unable to identify what was supposedly “infantile” in my first post. It was intended to be ironic – there you were banging on about education standards and yet your short post was error ridden.

            I’ve told you before, my work is peer reviewed. In more than 40 years no one has found an error. As I’ve previously observed: those of us who can, do; those of you who can’t, teach.

            Your penultimate paragraph is not supported by the posting history above. Whenever I’ve pointed out your mistakes, your goto response has been to launch personal insults. You have also resorted to increasingly strained use of the English language to pretend that there wasn’t a mistake. Bad form old boy!

          • fatslaphead

            I didn’t bother to try to identify, again, the infantile elements of your post.

            Suffice it to say that there is much in your posts that are infantile.

            No my short post was not error ridden.

            It had a couple of typos which did not change the meaning at all.

            I don’t mind people being peddantic at all.

            In Mathematics you have to be precise.

            Humpty Dumpty’s famous quote really does apply in Maths..

            “I’ve told you before, my work is peer reviewed. In more than 40 years no one has found an error.”

            That is, of course, worthy of congratulation and appropriate admiration.

            I, on the other hand, have made many mistakes over the last forty years.

            How have you managed not to make even one?

            ” As I’ve previously observed: those of us who can, do; those of you who can’t, teach.”

            I have heard that many times from those who wish to insult someone but who lack the imagination to think of an original insult all of their own.

            I have pointed out to you, and you have not proven otherwise, that no one can teach something when they do not know just what it is they are teaching.

            It is a lazy nonsensical attempt at an insult.

            “Your penultimate paragraph is not supported by the posting history above.”

            I am always pleased if someone corrects a factual error.

            You have not shown the factual error, indeed you are, it seems, quite unable to understand the simple English I used to explain the reasoning behind my post.

            My English is entirely relaxed and natural.

            There is no strain in my English, at all, old chap.

            ” Bad form” now that is close to an original insult, Brian. However I am not guilty of bad form.

            I am very flexible and willing to learn.

            You seem to be set in your ways and unable to accept that you made a simple error of understanding.

            It might hurt Brian but it is not that serious to cause yourself so much dissonance.

            You are a chap who does not like to admit that you have made an error.

          • GnosticBrian

            Two typos an arithmetic error and beginnibg a sentance with a small letter.

            If you are going to talk about pedantic people, at least try to spell the word correctly! Whom Tyler, the leader of the pedants’ revolt, will be turning in his grave.

            Typical teacher – lots of verbiage and nothing worth reading!

          • fatslaphead

            there you go again Brian.

            All you are concerned with is trivialities.

            This is a forum. Not an academic journal.

            And I always spell pedantic with two ds.

            I do know it is incorrect.

            It always irritates small minded pedants.

            Who is Whom Tyler?

            “Typical teacher – lots of verbiage and nothing worth reading!!

            Well for someone who thinks that is true you have spent a lot of time reading my posts.

            You clearly derive satisfaction from doing that.

          • GnosticBrian

            “And I always spell pedantic with two ds” – clearly that isn’t true just as your assertion “I am always pleased if someone corrects a factual error” was also untrue as evidenced by your linguistic gynastics over your arithmetical error and the ridiculous assertions that you made (at great length) about the role of logic in mathematics.

            Evidently “1066 and all that” passed you by. “The Venemous Bede” ring any bells, or is history another subject about which you know little or nothing?

            But you are right on one point, I have enjoyed reading the posts that you have made
            in this thread. I spend most of my day wrestling with difficult
            intellectual problems, reading the ramblings of an academically
            challenged mind offers some light relief and a lot of amusement.

          • fatslaphead

            No linguistic gymnastics.

            just a simple explanation which you appear to be unable to comprehend.

            I know little about history; it is just another branch of fiction.

            I am really pleased that you have enjoyed reading my posts.

            Such a contrast to yours.

            Never mind not all Mathematicians can be as interesting as Du Sautoy although I am sure that with some effort you could improve.

            It must be very draining having to deal with difficult problems. But take heart even the greatest mathematician/scientist that ever existed had a problem that caused his head to ache.

            I am reasonably happy with my “academically challenged mind”. Just as well, I suppose, since I cannot change it.

            I don’t think I would want to be as clever as you are.

            I don’t know whether I could cope with being so superior to everyone.

            Perhaps your mind is too highly attuned and brilliant and thus unable to understand that somethings really are as simple as they seem.

            Always look for the simple solution Brian.

          • GnosticBrian

            Another long rambling post from you in which you are still unable to say what was “infantile” about my first post.

            The simple solution is that you were a teacher because you couldn’t; I wasn’t a teacher, because I could. Simples.

          • fatslaphead

            Ok, Brian if you and your gigantic brain power are incapable of working it out for yourself

            You wrote

            “”O leve;s”, “iayour”?

            40 years ago would be the mid-seventies – perhaps rtj1211 has a valid point if you underwent secondary education post 1975…

            I responded with

            “it is never good to criticise errors which are clearly typos..

            It makes you look as bad as your infantile last paragraph.”

            Criticising typos and minor errors is the mark of a small minded person who wants to be “one up”.

            That is why it makes you look bad.

            The last paragraph is a sad and pathetic attempt to score a point.

            That is why it is infantile.

            leave that sort of stuff to the kiddies.

            It just makes you look childish.

            Of course your posts have demonstrated these characteristics all the way through.

            Brian you do display a small minded attitude and your attempts at insults are unimaginitive, lack lustre, completely miss any target and are unoriginal.

            You say you are a Mathematician.

            It is always better to look for simple solutions and you have certainly convinced your self that you have found one.

            Not everything is simple, Brian.

            It would be better for you to carry on with your sums than to attempt to join in with the adults since all you do is show that you are the very opposite of gnostic.

            Oh, and (to descend to your level) “Simples” “went out” long ago.

          • GnosticBrian

            You are a waffler.

            Pointing out your spelling and grammatical mistakes in such a short post on educational standards was irony, but you seem devoid of any sense of humour.

            Simply asserting that my second paragraph was infantile, does not make it so. You made a significant arithmetical error but were / are not man enough to admit it, instead resorting to all manner of linguistic gymnastics.

            And I am a better mathematician than you; I at least know the role of logic in the subject whereas you don’t.

            You really need to see a professional about your anger issues. A constant stream of invective and personal abuse isn’t normal adult behaviour.

          • fatslaphead

            Oh dear Brian,

            I can see that you have multiple problems.

            Deeply ingrained ones too!

            I have an extraordinarily great sense of humour.

            You do not.

            your attempt at irony, if that is what it was, failed.

            You keep repeating yourself as if the process of repetition makes your nonsense a truth.

            You seem to feel so inferior that you have to prove that you are more intelligent than I am.

            If you are a Mathematician then you are more intelligent than I am.

            I have an above average intelligence but it is nothing special.

            “Simply asserting that my second paragraph was infantile, does not make it so.”

            That is true however your 2nd paragraph was and still is infantile.

            you may well be as logical as Mr Spock however you are not the only person who is logical.

            Waffle? If it is you keep coming back for more?

            “A constant stream of invective and personal abuse isn’t normal adult behaviour.”

            Then you should stop.

          • GnosticBrian

            So my ironic comment fell on stoney ground with you – and what, just as likely to be sense of humour failure on your part?

            You keep telling me that I have multiple problems and am inferior (presumably inferior to you – in your dreams!) Repetition or what?

            Well this inferior and unimaginative old codger has just completed a cosmic ray telescope for the youngest member of the family to use during half term. Also designed, wrote and tested the software for data acquisition, reduction and analysis – funnily enough Mr Gates doesn’t offer any off the shelf.

            Why do it? Because the Physics master at school is like you. But he does have the piece of paper so prized by that aristo Tristram Hunt, he isn’t a nun or a monk. Neither has he any real world experience of his subject; he is a teacher, not a doer.

            Would you even know where to begin in making a cosmic ray telescope?

          • fatslaphead

            If your comment was ironic then it was ironic that no one noticed the irony.

            You do have problems.

            A problem with repeating your self.

            A problem with wanting to be “one up”.

            A problem with not understanding simple English.

            A problem with nit picking.

            A problem with making things up.

            I have not said you are inferior to me.

            Indeed in my last post I wrote

            “If you are a Mathematician then you are more intelligent than I am.”.


            “I have an above average intelligence but it is nothing special.”

            I never said you were inferior.

            I did say that using that old Shavian lie was unimaginative.”

            Congratulations on being a fantastic helper to a young member of the family (grandchild?) with a cosmic telescope.

            I do not know what one is for but having just looked it up on Google it would appear that they are an enormous pieces of kit.

            And congrats on the software too. Not bad for an old codger.

            maybe you can market the kit.

            Put it on Youtube and see if you can get many hits from all those very clever kids around the globe who love that sort of stuff. (I am being serious, Brian).

            I don’t want to talk about Tristram Hunt. Dr hunt is a clever bloke but I despise his sort.

            Nuns are just as capable of being good or bad teachers as anyone else.

            “Would you even know where to begin in making a cosmic ray telescope?”

            Yes I do.

            I would start at the very beginning.

            Because it’s

            a very good place to start.

            No the truth is I wouldn’t know where to start.

            And it could be that the “physics” master is nothing of the sort. They might well be someone who has been forced into teaching a subject that is not their own.

            I don’t know what it is for either.

            I look forward to seeing your demonstration on You tube, with a backing website too.

          • GnosticBrian

            “I have not said you are inferior to me”

            So was “You seem to feel so inferior that you have to prove that you are more intelligent than I am” just more of your armchair psychology?

            I don’t do social media; only make the occasional post on Discus or the Daily Mail. Amazing just how many people on both are so easily wound up – perhaps it is because the bare words without intonation or body language are capable of a variety of interpretation. As an example of the reverse, his excellecy the Rt Hon Tristram’s words were relatively anodyne but when coupled to the sneer in his voice and the look of contempt on his face they clearly took on a deeper meaning. [i hope that you don’t take umbrage at the winding up of Daily Mail readers, it is one of the few joys left to an old codger – that and buying a drum kit for the son of the noisiest offspring.]

          • fatslaphead

            “So was “You seem to feel so inferior that you have to prove that you are
            more intelligent than I am” just more of your armchair psychology?”

            I don’t have an armchair.

            The key words here are “seem to feel”

            I did not say or imply you were inferior.

            As I have said I have an above average intelligence but it is nothing special.

            I don’t actually feel superior to anyone. Even those that people might think I would feel thatt way about.

            After all it has nothing to do with me.

            on one of my emails I have a picture of someone flicking a coin.

            It is there to represent how our lives appear to be a set of different choices/chances.

            “Turn a different corner and we never would have met”

            People who are unintellegent are that way for the same way that my IQ is whatever it is.

            And you are right people do take offence.

            It is much easier to be annoyed in these anonymous forums.

            But some people say things that are untrue by mistake, by prejudice and by ignorance. Some people seem to have a nasty motivation.

            So when you nit picked the typos in my post I said it did not make you look good.

            I almost never do it.

            But your second paragraph was, shall we say, less than kind.

            And that did irritate.

            Ok I should have noticed the typos. but I didn’t.

            And we have had a “disagreement” about it.

            And as for Tristram Hunt.

            He is a very clever man.

            In fact all of our top politicians are very clever men and women.

            That is not the reason I despise them.

            When hunt referred to the nuns he did not modify his apparent opinions.

            Nuns can be just as good or bad as teachers as anyone else.

            One of my pals used to be taught by a nun and she would throw a bible at him.

            I read the softporn DM on line too.

            Some of it is interesting but some of the people who post on both sites are very extreme in their views.

            Of course the softporn DM is a hypocrite.

            It has pictures of young women in skimpy bikinis all the time.

            Now I am an admirer of the female form but in the last week there has been a nude photo of a young woman with her little necessaries narrowly blamked out.

            That has to be wrong in a family newspaper.

            Just becareful they do not ban you on the DM.

            They won’t take comments fromme because i , too have wound people up and written outrageous nonsense.

            And yes I did it because I I enjoyed it and because I have not grown up yet and hope I never do.

            Anyway I still think your work on the telescope is absolutely great and that you might be surprised by the interest , worldwide, if you put it on youtube or made th edesigns or software availablke to thiose who are interested!

            I respect intelligence and its good applications.

            I just wish I had some talent at something!

            And I would not expect to get anymore Xmas cards from the neighbours of

            ” the son of the noisiest offspring.”.

            You know what?

            I think I understand you much better now!


          • GnosticBrian

            More linguistic gymnastics – how on earth you can form a reasonable opinion as to my FEELINGS from a few truncated factual comments beats me,

            I assume that you have never actually met “Dim” Dawn (Primarolo), Ed (I can’t eat a sandwich) Miliband [but I can avoid IHT], “Foggy” Jack (Straw). “two Jags” Prescott, Estelle (it is all too much for me) Morris, “Saint” Vince (whoops I got my VAT wrong) Cable, any of the HUNDREDS of MPs who made “mistakes” (oddly always to their personal advantage) – oh, the list is interminable. Few, if any, of the current generation of politicians are fit to tie the shoelaces of Harold Wilson’s cabinet.

            If you are interested in “what ifs” read one of the popular books on the “Many Worlds” interpretation of Quantum Mechanics – all of the various possibilities can, and do, play out. Scary. Avoid the maths, it can get hairy.

            Have a fun weekend!

          • fatslaphead

            No linguistic gymnastics.

            And some of us are sensitive to other people’s feelings.

            how strange that all of those you mentioned are such high achievers and yet such failures.

            Wilson was a brilliant bloke with a first in the politiican’s degree, the PPE.

            He had some clever people with him too. Although there were several Hypocrites.

            What a shame for such a brain to develop Alzheimers.

            Thanks for the suggestion re “many Worlds”.

            As for having a fun weekend I am supposed to be repairing the damage done by a leaking shower.

            Instead I will be on my way up’t north to see my daughter who has been taken into hospital with a severe case of quinzies.

            So if I can’t have a fun weekend I will have to donate it to you.

          • GnosticBrian


            Not all politicians have the intellectual integrity and honesty of Ed Ballsup.

            I wish your daughter has a full and speedy recovery – despite scaremongering by politicians, “our” NHS is good in a crisis.

          • fatslaphead


            anyway Ed Balls?

            he is a bit of a thug is he not?

            And he demands a receipt for someone doing a minor job?

            I think our hospitals are great.

            nothing is perfect and the daughter is out of hospital.

            It was a badly infected throat and glandular fever.

            there’s a lot of it about apparently so mind how you go.

          • GnosticBrian

            Glad to hear that your daughter is on the mend. Glandular fever – is that what they called the “kissing disease” when we were young?

            To succeed in the Labour party requires either great proficiency in the Machiavellian arts or a thuggish nature.

          • fatslaphead

            She is coming back home tonight.

            Fortunately no 3 son is bringing her home.

            It saves me a long drive.

            I used to love driving but I really hate it these days.

            As for the kissing disease, well you could be right…

            as for your last para I remember seeing a film in which a new MP says to an old MP that the enemy are over on the other side of the house. The old timer says no the enemy are behind you the others are just the opposition, or something like that.

          • Pete Garbett

            Each time you write here, you make yourself look like a semi-literate ****ing imbecile! Try a course on punctuation and capitalisation.

          • fatslaphead

            Pete love,

            Good try but not quite good enough on this occasion.

            No one can look “semi-literate”.

            “Try a course on punctuation and capitalisation.”

            When someone “picks flies” with the presentation of a post it never makes them look anything but sad and pathetic.

            Peter it is not hard for most people to understand that typos. happen and that might not be noticed etc..

            Thank you for your advice but really until you have something interesting or useful to say you should just shut the “****” up.

          • Dogsnob

            1968. That was the year when the dumbing-down process gathered its head of steam and could push on down the line. Handover was swift, almost overnight, the staff rooms were cleared of one set of characters and their ideals and standards; to be replaced by the first of those who have by now brought our young people to the state at which, if they can actually spell the Spanish resort they visit, they certainly could not find it on the map, and regard any such enquiry as geekish.
            Perfectly primed and ready for duty.

          • fatslaphead

            “almost overnight, the staff rooms were cleared of one set of characters
            and their ideals and standards; to be replaced by the first of those who
            have by now brought our young people to the state at which, if they can
            actually spell the Spanish resort they visit, they certainly could not
            find it on the map, and regard any such enquiry as geekish.”

            That is an interesting observation but have you any evidence that would back up your ideas.

            Do you think that the changes made by the tories to the education system since the early 70s made any difference at all.

            If so in which direction?

            For good or ill or is it all some kind of lefty plot?

          • Dogsnob

            I can’t offer any pie charts, but I was there throughout and I think I am reasonably astute; I see and hear what is happening when, very often, the carefully crafted ‘evidence’ would suggest otherwise.

            I haven’t the faintest idea what the Tories or Labour or any other interested party might have purported to do in the field of education and I would respectfully suggest you waste not a second more of your time pursuing such.

            My estimation of the direction of our education system can I hope, be gleaned from my former comment.

            Left? Right? It’s all a bit redundant really isn’t it?

          • fatslaphead

            When you say you were there do you mean you were a teacher and witnessed this “cleansing” yourself?

            Are you saying that a cover up of what was happening was organised.

            If you were not a teacher how did you see all of this?

            Thanks for your suggestion which I take in the spirit in which it was intended.

            “Left? Right? It’s all a bit redundant really isn’t it?”

            Sadly it isn’t.

            Politics should have no place in education but the parties use it as something to kick at each other.

          • Dogsnob

            As a pupil, I received the benefits of the teaching standards of the pre68 regime and was then left to salvage as much as I could from the crash which then ensued.
            Much later I managed to enter teaching, to find, depressingly, that the situation had become worse.
            I haven’t hinted at any cover-up.
            I’m not sure that politics should not play a part in how we decide to educate. That’s actually an impossible restriction.

          • fatslaphead

            “I’m not sure that politics should not play a part in how we decide to educate. That’s actually an impossible restriction.”

            I am completely sure that Politics should be well out of it.

            You only have to look at the amateurish meddling from Gove backwards to realise how incompetent they are.

          • Dogsnob

            If we’re talking “Politics”, I agree. But ‘politics’ is as inescapable in education as all other walks of life.

          • fatslaphead

            I do agree with you and , let’s face it, someone has to give direction to our state activities and that is where damn politics comes into it.

            However the problem comes in when instead of doing what is right for the kids and the country the politicos apply their political beliefs rather than using tried and tested systems from wherever in the world and time.

          • Dogsnob

            Agreement all the way there.

          • oopiop

            When trainee teachers in the 1970s were reading a Little Red Book “Penguin Education Special ” entitled “Teaching as a Subversive Activity” I think we knew the way it was going.

          • Dogsnob

            Not heard of it but not a bit surprised. Will have to look it up.

      • Chris Taylor

        May be the case where you live but not here thank God.

      • monsieur_charlie

        Indians also practice discrimination (the cast system) more than the natives of this country ever have.

        • willshome

          Learn to spell it, at least. And “ever have”? Remember when the 1% owned the 99% physically as well as, at present, economically?

          • Ed  

            Since you bring up ownership of people, I believe it was the Royal Navy that put an end to the slave trade also, it was British Indian civil servants who put an end to suttee, dacoity and thuggee. You see, we are the good guys.

          • rtj1211

            You are seriously asserting that Bristol was not built on the profits of the Slave Trade??

            ‘I stopped raping your daughter and started protecting her, so Jesus should pay me homage’??


          • Ed  

            Well, yes, really, Bristol was a port on the slave trade. Until Britain led the way out of the slave trade. It’s called “redemption”. You should try it some time.

          • Kennybhoy


            ” England, France, Portugal, and Spain, all participated in this nefarious traffic. England only made amends for its transgressions when, in 1815, it took the initiative in the suppression of the slave trade.”

            – The Catholic Encyclopedia, New York, 1912

          • vieuxceps2

            By the way, note that “England” in the Catholic Encyclopaedia.
            No reference to Scotch ,Welsh or Irish,eh?

          • Kennybhoy

            Quite common usage back in the day. More so with non English speaking foreigners than native English speakers I will grant. I think that upon occasion even Sir Walter Scott may have written thus…

          • vieuxceps2

            I wagher you’ll find a flourishing Bristol well before the slave-trade.Try Dar-es Salaaam or Zanzibar if you want to see real slavery in action.

          • alframseyssexdungeon

            You are correct, proof being in the fact Bristol was a mint during the Angevin rule of England: Henry II, Richard the Lionheart, John, and Henry III.

          • Nicky Christian

            What a bitter pathetic racist you are.

        • Ovida Yosef

          And of course ther is no discrimination in the UK ?

          • Kennybhoy

            Do you know what a non sequitur is?

          • Ovida Yosef

            Do explain !

          • Llamedos2

            Ovida – yes of course there is, and there is very likely to be more. Everyone else, except the indigenous English, have had their say. We, are called ‘racist’ when we say anything at all that someone else doesn’t like. Nobody is ‘entitled’ to NOT be offended – we all have to cope with that, in all ways. Part of life.

          • monsieur_charlie

            Yes, I suppose the Indians who live here probably still practice it.

      • Ovid

        My grandmother visited the Disunited Republic of Formerly Great Britain in the early 1950’s. She told me how she met Indian gentlemen and ladies who spoke English with what she called a “sing-song voice”. Flawlessly articulate pronunciation, the Queen’s English as it was meant to be. They had come from tea plantations in the days of the Raj, as well as from Raj administrative offices. I sometimes think how the grandchildren of these men and women probably saunter around London with a sort of “innit” speak. Not to mention the fact that they like the natives probably wear Nike tracksuits 24/7 for all occasions. I’ve got no intentions on going home to Mother England, even for a visit. I’m well aware of what is going on there, but it would break my little heart to see it.

        • Hegelman

          It would break our hearts if you dropped in.

          • Ovid

            من غير المرجح

          • alframseyssexdungeon

            Yes, it would be terrible for someone who isn’t on-message to come here suggesting things might have been better before we headed to the sunlit uplands of unfettered multiculturalism.

            Quick, organise a twitter mob to call them a raaaaycisst. They might even apologise for telling the truth..

          • Jody Taylor

            I’m sure there’s a suitably glib hashtag available to “go virus” and express these ideas. Such depth……real poetry in our world today. Why bother with the full sentence when you can expostulate all your dreams via Twitter.

          • Paul Wonnacott

            I like that 🙂 Twitter only good for “soundbites” and catchphrases, the limit on characters doesn’t allow for fully reasoned debate

          • Cyril Sneer

            You forgot to call him waaaaaycist.


          • Ed  

            If you heart is that easily broken, pass it here. Thanks. ‘SNAP’. Oops, sorry about that.

        • willshome

          Always let ignorance be your guide Ovid. You’ll never taste the unsettling nature of reality.

          • Ovid

            Unsettling nature of reality?
            Seeing as we’re commenting on an article about Enoch Powell let me ask you. How many beheadings/shootings/riots/hostage situations make a river of blood?

          • Ovid

            Seems Spectator deleted my comment. Too “far-right-neo-nazi-evil-extremist-UKIP-reactionary-fascist” for your tastes Mr Moderator? That’s ok, I was increasingly embarrassed to ask for your glossy mag at the news agents anyway. If you’re curious willshome, I alluded to a certain prophecy by Enoch Powell which I believe has been fulfilled dozens of times, several in the past week. But I guess that was a bit too spooky for this rag.

        • Penny

          I can’t speak for London, but I live just a few miles from Luton where there is a fairly large Indian community. I don’t see the younger generation in tracksuits or saying “innit”. I’ve always found that the young women have a certain grace and feminity about them, and the boys seem decent lads who tend to do well at school.

        • SeaBeeUK

          They wear knock-off copy Nike tracksuits.

        • Arturo Franks

          Yes, please don’t visit. We have more than enough pig-ignorant expats laying down the law as it is from the safe distance of whatever God-cursed hellhole they are pleased to call home. “Mother England” my backside.

          • Ovid

            “God-cursed hellhole”
            Considering the UK barely makes it in the top 15 rungs in the HDI index, and that people are fleeing the UK for the Anglosphere, your comment is a bit rich. And it gives me no pleasure to say it but you’re the one on the sinking ship. Now do be careful not to lose your head, over this, old chap.

        • Llamedos2

          Ovida – if your grandmother visited the UK that means you/she are not native to the UK, and that is why you are being hostile because you don’t understand our feelings. But that is perfectly ok … we do not need your presence or your approval.

          • Ovid

            “you/she are not native to the UK”
            I guarantee I have a greater claim to being native than 20% of the current inhabitants of that sceptered isle. In fact half of the under 25 population of my family died in two world wars for an empire you decided you didn’t need two years afterwards, and a country you decided to sell down the river. And you may not need my presence or approval but God knows you beg of it from virtually everyone else.

          • phaasch .

            Oy! Less of the “didn’t need it”, thank you- thanks to the Hitler Show and it’s aftermath, this country was exhausted and bankrupt- we couldn’t hang on to the Empire. Everything we produced was going to rebuild Europe, or repay America. That was the price of “freedom”. And we didn’t sell it down the river, it was sold from under us.

          • Ovid

            That might be the high school history class version of events, but the Yalta, Tehran and Potsdam conferences tell a different story. The ol’ bulldog fought with blood, sweat and tears to hand Europe from Hitler to Stalin and Roosevelt. Also the role J.Kennedy Snr had in the “lend lease program” is interesting. When he wasn’t intentionally running Britain into huge debt he was funding the IRA. History is a lot more interesting when you find out what your old textbooks omitted.

          • phaasch .

            No news there. Like you, I prefer to do my own digging, even if it is just balancing out differing accounts and arriving at a gut impression, at times. Ask anyone who lived in this country through the late 40s and well into the 50s- it was bloody miserable. No food, no housing, no money and not much hope- we were a nation on its uppers, unlike large swathes of Europe who were being rebuilt by us and America. If we couldn’t feed ourselves, how on earth were we expected to run an empire, plus dealing with all the wars of independence breaking out everywhere? You tell me.
            As for Joe Kennedy, you may be surprised to hear that it is fairly well known what a two handed shyster he was. It even gets into mainstream tv drama!

      • Mode4

        Yes and that’s the way liblabcon like it. It works for them.

      • Peter Shaw

        …and you have evidence for this supposition? I’m sure you can provide the wealth of evidence to back up this assertion…

      • Damaris Tighe

        The same applies to many of the first generation West Indian immigrants. They were bitterly disappointed with the British schools their children had to go to.

        • Drew

          they bitterly disappointed that their children had to go to school in britain

          • Damaris Tighe

            WI schools were very traditional. Their products were well versed in Shakespeare, Keats & British history. They identified strongly with British culture. In the comps their children were taught they were Africans & compared with the WI there was little discipline or traditional education. These comps churned out the hoodies we see on the streets.

          • MalikHills

            I was visiting the Bahamas a few years back and at first glance it resembled a part of America, with the cars (driving on the correct side of the road admittedly) and dress but what struck me as very British in the old-fashioned sense was the schoolkids.

            They were immaculately turned out in neat traditional school uniforms and walking in the streets with pride and respect, both for themselves and others. I couldn’t help but think with despair how such kids would have looked if they were being educated back in the former “mother country”.

          • Damaris Tighe

            Yes, exactly.

      • Cyril Sneer

        You know an awful lot of people….

        “white natives”

        The English you mean.

        • Martin Davies

          Britons were the people who spoke the Insular Celtic language known as Common Brittonic. They lived in Great Britain during the Iron Age, the Roman era and the post-Roman era. After the arrival of the Anglo-Saxons the population was either subsumed into Anglo-Saxon culture, becoming( “English”;) retreated; or persisted in the Celtic fringe areas of Wales, Cornwall and southern Scotland, with some emigrating to Brittany.so the white native’s er”” are not the english

          • Ricayboy

            Where did Britons/Celts come from? The Iberian Peninsular. When are you packing your bags?

          • Cj

            Yep and who wiped out Neanderthals again?

          • wiley789

            How can you say they arent natives, you yourself just said, the population subsumed into the anglo saxon CULTURE, just because their culture adapted and changed doesnt mean they are suddenly foreign to these lands. Im scots and even I can understand that, and if the white natives are NOT the english, who. or what identity have these white natives…..???

          • Neil Saunders

            Yes we are. You’re Welsh, not English. England didn’t exist until the English (the Anglo-Saxons) came.

            The politically-correct theory that claims the Anglo-Saxons were only a ruling elite fails to account for the virtual absence of Celtic words in the English language, and the complete predominance of Anglo-Saxon or Norse place-names and personal names in England.

            If the Celts had survived in England in any numbers, we could reasonably expect English to be some kind of Anglo-Brythonic creole ,which it isn’t, or for Welsh to have survived here alongside English (rather as Irish survives in Ireland), which it doesn’t.

            And if Anglo-Saxon men had been compelled to take Celtic women as wives, again, the complete dominance of English would remain a mystery, since women are the carers and educators of children, and would speak (at least some of the time) in their own language (or “mother tongue”).

            We don’t have to demonstrate absolutely pure Anglo-Saxon or Viking bloodlines to claim our English nationhood (although our alleged mongrelism is exaggerated for propaganda purposes); we just have to affirm our allegiance to the culture and nation of England.

      • Cobbett

        Piss off.

      • Nicky Christian

        “white natives”

        Rather a racist and bitter comment, Hegelman. It takes more than just being able to speak and write a language in order to belong.

      • HappyNewYear

        that’s not my experience in the UK or India

    • willshome

      It’s only appalling if a) you think other ethnicities are “appalling” and b) a gathering of people of other ethnicities are a “ghetto”. If you see people rather than race, any thriving community is rather uplifting, I find.

      • alframseyssexdungeon

        Race is a dangerous card, I grant you that. 20th century history shows us that. More important is what’s between the ears.

        All that is being discussed here is the leftist canard about massive influxes of immigration over history – something which DNA studies show to be massively overstated. Indeed, the number of times the example of huguenots is used in defence of current immigration levels is staggering. But they numbered around 50,000 (an insignificant fart in a storm compared to today’s figures).

        Lastly, I wouldn’t be bothered if the UK were more racially mixed. That isn’t the issue. Culture is.

        • Paul Wonnacott

          50,000 then was the equivalent of 300,000 now, and don’t forget the Flemings, these people both brought skills and technology essential to Britain’s place in the forefront of the Industrial revolution

          • bunty

            They were also paid thugs in the twelfth century, who happily killed an pillaged etc to the highest payee.

          • Llamedos2

            Bunty – to be honest I don’t think what the 12thC thugs did at that time is important to the immigration question right now. We must get out of the EU – completely stop immigration – stop benefits for immigrants, legal or otherwise. And perhaps more importantly, we English must admit our Englishness and reply, Yes, I am English and proud of it! (I have always written ‘English’ on all the forms required and on my passport).

          • Kennybhoy

            Spot on.

          • Neil Saunders

            The Flemish were barely distinguishable racially or culturally from the English. You can’t compare them with more recent (and larger) waves of migration from far more alien cultures and races.

          • Damaris Tighe

            I think we’d all be very relieved if the current immigration numbers were only 300,000.

        • Kennybhoy

          “Lastly, I wouldn’t be bothered if the UK were more racially mixed. That isn’t the issue. Culture is.”

          Wholeheartedly agree. Immigration as such is not the issue. It is immigration + multiculturalism. Immigration absent assimilation is a species of colonialism or invasion. The more self-confident Britain of the past would, with some teething problems, have swallowed up significant numbers of immigrants.

    • global city

      and what makes cosmopolitan cities interesting and exciting is their rarity. when every hamlet and village is fully ‘diversified’ a whole culture will have been eradicated.

      You do not have to be a fully paid up member of the blood and soil fraternity to understand it as a cruel affliction. Stupid lefties can see the horror in that, but only when applied to other, foreign lands.

    • SqueakyBrakes

      Assimilation and integration are key and something that happens over a number of generations. Mass uncontrolled immigration is as destructive as an invading army.

      PS: Islam doesn’t do integration – full stop.

  • Arthur Ascii

    .”The largely working-class communities among which many immigrants were settling were broken-hearted at the theft of their collective identity in the places where they had grown up and at being told to be ashamed of their resentment.”

    I have made this point myself many times. They were shouted down as racists by those they had elected to represent them i.e. Labour, for daring to question what was happening to their communities without their consultation nor consent.

    • willshome
      • William Cooke


      • wallylad

        Owen Jones is a complete prat and needs his head flushing down the toilet!

      • Johnnydub

        “Chavs – the demonization of the working class.” The little prick can’t even get the title right… Chavs don’t work; they’re the benefits lounging underclass…

      • Neil Saunders

        Please don’t. Recommend a far better book, “The Likes of Us: A Biography of the White Working Class” by Michael Collins. (Funny that Collins hasn’t been lionised by the popular media, or become a regular talking head on TV, unlike Jones, eh?)

      • Ed_Burroughs

        Chav =! working class. Therefore the book falls before the first hurdle.

    • Kennybhoy

      “…were broken-hearted at the theft of their collective identity in the places where they had grown up…”

      To be fair, this particular phenomenon date back to ancient times in great cities.

      • Arthur Ascii

        In far fewer numbers and at a much slower rate. The impact on communities was gradual, and it wasn’t forced upon a single generation as is the case today with mass immigration of hundreds of thousands.

      • Llamedos2

        Kenny – please can we stop harping back to ancient times! It is NOW we are having trouble Ken – NOW …. and NOW is the time for our idle MP’s to start listening to us. We want out of the EU and to retrieve the governance of OUR country.

    • Llamedos2

      Arthur- well said, carry on making the point – and don’t let them shout you down.

    • LastmaninEurope

      This paragraph jumped out at me.
      It had an uncringeworthy pathos about it.

  • Malcolm Stevas

    A far more valuable and straightforward discussion of the topic than we are accustomed to anywhere in the UK mainstream press – thanks, Tom Stacey. Your first three sentences are spot on. And absolutely yes a thousand times, ethnicity does matter. Of course it bleedin’ well does. Everyone and his dog knows this, and observes the difficulties worldwide arising from its being ignored, but our political class is as gutless and short on patriotism as it is incompetent – so a fundamental truth is sidelined.
    I disagree that Enoch Powell “queered the pitch and blighted the language”: he was a great man who spoke the truth, but his message and his memory have been wilfully, designedly traduced through the treachery of the Left and their useful idiots on the so-called Right.

  • will91

    Enoch Powell – The bravest, most principled politician Britain has seen in modern times.

    • Cooper1992

      I don’t think that simply calling him plain old ‘Enoch’ should do now.

      I think from now on we should be calling him the ‘Prophet Enoch’.

      • will91

        Watch the superb documentary “Odd Man Out”. Here Powell speaks, just a few years before his death, about his valiant but ultimately doomed rearguard action against a prevailing status quo.

    • Mode4

      He was one of the few politicians that supported his people, the others support their own financial interest.

    • Jody Taylor

      #Ich bin Enoch

      • vieuxceps2

        Je suis Enoch.Pity we were’nt all Enoch.

  • Mr. Billckston

    According to some estimates, about 64,000 Federal inmates are illegal aliens.

    • Jody Taylor


  • sfin

    An excellent article, which should be required reading for every politician or would be politician in the land.

    Whenever I hear yet another political idiot mouth: “Britain is a diverse, multicultural society…” as if it is self evidently righteous, I always think: “Which absolutely nobody voted for.”

    • Andy Capp

      Yes, but notice how the House of Commons is still “outrageously white” (to paraphrase Greg Dyke). And I bet they and their families live in “outrageousoy white” neighbourhoods.

      • Richard

        No, he said “hideously white”.

        • Jody Taylor


    • Jody Taylor

      Boy, there’s real truth in this comment. Read “Democracy in Decline” by Professor James Allan (Garrick Professor of Law, Queensland University, Australia). Majoritarian democracy has nothing whatever to do with the kind of society to which you belong. Read this disturbing book and weep!

  • Leftyliesrefuted

    I agree with much of this article. But I’m sorry that Mr Stacey repeats the old canard that Enoch Powell “queered the pitch and blighted the language …”.

    Given that opinion polls taken at the time showed overwhelming support for Powell’s views (as did his mailbag), how did he “queer the pitch”? Surely his popularity was at least partly the result of the fact that no other front-line politician was prepared to talk about the problems associated with mass immigration? And, therefore, if Powell had not spoken out, even the subsequent restrictions on immigration might well not have been implemented. So, without his intervention, we would have had an even bigger immigration problem than we in fact had.

    Enoch Powell was a brave, far-seeing prophet and statesman, and if we had more politicians of his stature and wisdom, this country would be in a much better state than it is today.

    And of course, had Powell been successful in his attempt to keep the UK out of the EU (and, in no small part thanks to his efforts, the Second Reading of the European Communities Act of 1972 was passed with a majority of only 8 votes), the problems of mass immigration from Eastern Europe in the past decade or so could have been avoided.

    • Colonel Mustard

      Most politicians today are mediocre, bland, cowardly products of managerial careerism slithering along greasy poles. They are terrified of the various vociferous lobby groups that dominate the country’s narrative.

    • Jabez Foodbotham

      I agree with much of this article. But I’m sorry that Mr Stacey repeats the old canard that Enoch Powell “queered the pitch and blighted the language …”.

      Indeed. This self-serving canard has been so widely adopted and regurgitated by politicians and commentators seeking to excuse their years of inaction and complaisance on the immigration issue that it now has life of its own.

      • AverageGuyInTheStreet

        It is a lie, because those in power wanted mass immigration to happen against the wishes of ordinary people.

  • Nothing new under the sun

    A useful contribution to the debate, though at the risk of labouring the point and it can hardly be said to say it all. Paul Collier made similar points, and more, in his 2013 book Exodus: How Migration Is Changing Our World

  • artemis in france

    If there is one watchword which should apply to any activity or movement in the human sphère it is “modération”. If we exercised it the evils of today would be practically non-existent. Not too anything, in other words. Not too much or too many of anything. Why is it that when this is called for over immigration there are some who condemn such demands? Surely they would not do so if we asked for modération in alcohol or calorie consumption? Whjy is it sensible to call for modération in everything but the importation and introduction of foreigners into any native culture?

  • Richard

    Britain is a strangely oppressive place. In form it is not so, because its repression exists in a way that is not legalistic, necessarily, though Labour’s last emperors started to change that. It is oppressive in that it ostracises people, denies them validity, will not discuss what is not presented on the ruler’s plate for them to discuss, and makes a fetish of “cool”.

    The latter of those has become particularly entrenched since 1997. “Cool” now applies to politicians and political opinion, too, not simply to clothes and actors and restaurants. It embraces whatever makes a “decent person” or “worthwhile person” in modern Britain. Not being “cool” is like not being mentioned on search-engines: you simply don’t exist.

    So, to be cool in Britain means that you shouldn’t be too bright (or certainly pretend you aren’t: have you noticed that even educated people are expected to use poor grammar), not too critical, have no judgements about others, dress in a certain way, vote in a certain way (and that has to be Left), embrace other cultures more than your own (and their ancillary racial identities), be somewhat ashamed of your own culture, not be poor but pretend that you are, use certain products, the list goes on and on. Of course in the past, there would have been other criteria, and other behavioural norms that would have been acceptable, but they would have been predicated on other things, like loyalty, or religious belief. “Cool” is something far more pernicious, because it is not amenable to analysis or existential change. It is the reduction of life to some sort of advertising ideal.

    The particular mindlessness of Britain means it cannot be salvaged. In truth, what is there left to salvage? Britain stands for nothing, not a religion, not an ethnicity, not a particular philosophy, not a way of life. It stands for the absence of these things, a sort of negative space which is craving to be filled. You might say it is the female in a never-ending search for a male. Not for nothing are most ethnic minorities represented male, and not for nothing is the white female/black male stereotype the most popular, from Danny Boyle’s Olympics opening ceremony, to advertisers selling furniture. If you need any evidence of this, just on the television.

    And, of course, Third-World immigrants love it, because there are no expectations or demands made of them. They are fetishised. They don’t have to up their games. In fact, there is pressure on them to remain poor and alien, so that Labour can harness their votes. That is why Labour doesn’t care much about Hindu Asians, but only their poorer Muslim brothers and sisters. And that is why media adverts are so obsessed with blacks, because they represent all that is “cool”.

    We live in a sick country. A legium pro Britannia, certainly.

    • Jody Taylor


      • Richard

        Send your cheque to (address supplied)…

        As my wife always says, that and a dime will get you a cup of coffee!

    • Kennybhoy

      Sound. Although…

      “The particular mindlessness of Britain means it cannot be salvaged.”

      It makes it very difficult rather than impossible. Fatalistic determinism is unbecoming in one so otherwise insightful! 🙂

      • Richard

        I think it’s something genetic, not sure if the Norman strain or the Saxon, or the combination of the two. God knows I’ve tried to “wake” people up in the UK, but the glazed look is something to behold.

        • Paul Garland

          Hi Richard,

          Studies show we ‘English’ have the short form of a
          certain gene which is essentially ‘dour’ (depressive) in it’s
          expression. . . The Danes allegedly have the long form which is the opposite in expression.
          Research into epigenetics / evolutionary biology / psychology shows that over a long time gene expression can and IS affected by environmental impacts.
          So, it is possible that thousands of years of servitude and malnutrition can and does produce a subservient and depressive response.

    • phaasch .

      What I have always wanted to know is- who sets the bar each year for what “is” and what “isn’t”? It must be the media. And what staggers me is just how many stand and swallow it all. Are we ALL sleepwalking sheep?

      • Richard

        I think there is a brain, but it’s covered with so much political cr*p that it can’t work properly. Somehow there is a disconnect between reality and thought. Life in the UK and Europe is very much filtered through culture, unable really to see reality. People are interpreted through local cultural norms. You have to see Africans through their own culture, Muslims, etc. Not everybody lives in Telletubbyland, where there are group-hugs and misdemeanours are punished with peltings of marshmallows. When I went to live in America years ago, it was a matter of “straighten up and fly right” or “shape up or ship out” and don’t expect favours or us to conform to you. I didn’t like it and left, but I certainly didn’t feel hard done-by, and certainly didn’t expect contributions to be made towards my welfare. But Britain isn’t like that. It misconstrues the whole notion of migration, as somehow being its responsibility. The law is far too soft (why do you think the countries from which so many of our criminals come – mainly black and Muslim – have such harsh penal codes?) and the desire to be “fair” is anything but.

        However, the whole exercise is dominated by the Left, who want as many Third World immigrants as possible, because they vote for them. They become ground troops for the Leftist cause immediately. This is so obvious to anybody looking on, but Brits simply won’t acknowledge or admit it. They also won’t acknowledge or admit the deep damage being done to their societies by these primitive people. They have fetishised the notion of “equality” without even understanding what it means. There is just no thought, things trundle on, patches are placed over problems, lies are told to hide the truth to keep the whole edifice in place.

        It’s just an impossible exercise, like trying to move a dead body, or herding cats. For myself, I can only watch on and shake my head.

        • phaasch .

          I think that pretty much covers it. It’s like watching a favourite relative slowly lapsing into dementia. There’s a brain in there somewhere, but it’s getting harder to find, or a mass brainwashing by some doolali religious cult.
          “Lessons have been learned”- that favourite phrase used by jobsworth civil servants, when someone has died as a result of sheer incompetence/ political correctness/ box- ticking culture. The trouble is, you know full well that nobody has learned a thing. Way back in 1968, Alan Bennett, with chilling prescience, said ” We have become a battery people, a people of under-privileged hearts, Fed on pap in darkness, bred out of all taste and season, to savour the shoddy splendours of the new civility” Amen.
          It’s time to wake up, but my God, it’s going to take some doing to shake off the anaesthetic.

  • Damaris Tighe

    This is brilliant Tom, & long overdue. But please could the eds break the piece up into paragraphs?

  • Damaris Tighe

    “[T]he soul of the nation”: this truth is so counter-cultural & hasn’t been spoken for seventy years. It was central to the first philosophers of nationalism such as Herder. Unfortunately it was language also used by the national socialists & so became taboo.

    The cloud of defeated national socialism that still hangs over Europe has penetrated every part of our political language. There are certain things we’re not allowed to say simply because the language was once also used by psychopaths. It is guilt by association applied to ideas. The price we pay is a hard, empty, soulless political discourse which will have no truck with ethnicity, history, cultural solidarity & all the other intangible things that make a true nation.

    The lack of such language has made possible unopposed mass immigration, contempt for the national culture & the fragmentation of the nation. Well done Tom Stacey, for having the courage to speak this way again. It’s truly liberating to read such an article in the Spectator.

  • pobinr

    Vote for the LibLabConmen if you want more of this;

    * Low wage immigrants entitled to more than they pay in tax from child benefit, social housing, family tax credits, NHS, subsidised nursery care, translators etc
    * People entitled to come here & work on low wage then go on benefits forever
    * Poor low population density countries made poorer by losing their workforce
    * Every other name on Southampton Maternity unit cots is East European
    * Cheap imported labour that drives wages down & take jobs from locals
    * Classes full of kids that need special lessons in speaking basic English
    * Being told it’s just Daily Mail fiction when we see it with our own eyes
    * A trojan horse of thousands of Islamists who hate & want to kill us
    * Free pension top ups for EU migrants that have been here a year
    * £600k a day going in child benefits to children in Eastern Europe
    * 28,000 or is it 5,000 Romanians I don’t care, held for crimes
    * EU grants to move UK factories to Eastern Europe & Ireland
    * Being told how to run our borders by an unelected Maoist
    * Eight year waiting list for social housing in Southampton
    * People free to come & go from disease ridden countries
    * Higher house prices & rents due to increased demand
    * Higher crime per capita commited by immigrants
    * 80% of fish that swam in our waters given away
    * More crowded surgeries & longer NHS queues
    * More dependance on food & energy imports
    * More & more centralised control by the EU
    * A new house needed every 7 minutes
    * Worst housing shortage since WWII
    * More & more houses on greenbelt
    * Oversupply of unskilled workers
    * Overburdonned infrastructure
    * More & more road congestion
    * More risk of power cuts
    * Child grooming gangs
    * People traffickers
    * More pollution

    Summary = We’re overruled & overun
    They’ll keep coming here until we’re as poor as them
    Being in the EU with open borders to poor countries is the equivalent of taking the locks of your front door & then being told how to run your affairs by your neighbours

    So vote UKIP, the party not of the left or the right
    Simply the party that’s right !

    How the EU is dismantling democracy in Europe;

    EU new Soviet Union ?

    Nigel Farage of UKIP exposes the unelected crooks & recycled Communists running the EU >

    Nigel Farage of UKIP Confronts the EU Commissioners >

    Remote control by the EU >

  • Ed  

    Stephen Harper consistently shocks right-thinking opinion by talking about “Canadian values”, which sails very close to the wind on this point. The media hate him for it, and it wins elections. Cameron could do worse than to study this.

    • Johnnydub

      Cameron is an establishment shill and hasn’t got a conservative bone in his body. LIbLabCon are simply three cheeks of the same metaphorical arse.

  • pobinr

    Farage savages Gordon Brown > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=evHrkZM33H8

  • WFB56

    Maybe in the 1960’s they didn’t have paragraphs or maybe the Spectator doesn’t have editors?

    • bengeo

      My God. It’s cut and paste gone mad!

  • Colonel Soup

    Excellent article. If only it’s deep wisdom were taught in schools and figured centrally on the BBC, but both organisations are dedicated to eradicating its message.

  • Patricia

    “Our sense of ‘us’ ……. it cannot be ignored or eradicated. It is, in sum, an issue of soul. And if our political masters do not demonstrate their grasp of that, they and we will rue it.”

    A brilliant summing up. This article should have been written 20 years ago and been made compulsive reading for politicians of all parties.

  • pobinr

    If you watch Enoch vids you’ll see he was a highly intelligent educated man who simply stated the truth > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IiNO7ptBWNw

  • tomgreaves

    This excellent summation of the problems faced by indigenous populations in the wake of mass immigration is long overdue. The media hysteria licensed by political correctness whenever immigration is debated is a poison that kills rational debate. A terrible sense of betrayal if felt, a betrayal that cannot be voiced for fear of ridicule, shame and humiliation, let alone fear of criminal offence. Huge emotions sit under the surface of millions of people, emotions that are incendiary and easily ignited. It is absolutely true that the soul of the nation has been driven out of national thinking, and it is also true that our sense of cultural identity has been starved to death by the Inquisitors of political correctness and an establishment that has sleep-walked into a nightmare.

    • Jody Taylor

      Yes, political correctness IS a poison. It didn’t start that way, but it has been used to trammel dissent and create massive censorship in the great free world (irony alert) democracies. Stop being taken for mugs!!


      • Neil Saunders

        What makes you think that political correctness didn’t start as poison? As soon as I became aware of it I could see how evil it was.

  • grammarschoolman

    If you’re an experienced journalist, why don’t you use paragraphs?

    • Jody Taylor

      I’ll quote Rhett Butler (to Scarlett)…..”a minor point at such a moment”.

      • grammarschoolman

        At least ‘Gone With the Wind’ is readable…

        • Damaris Tighe

          This post is still very readable but you need patience. Maybe you need your reading to be broken up into two sentence paragraphs?

  • Roy

    One would think, at the time of Enoch Powell or later, that an argument for the prevention of the virtual swamping of England by newcomers was a perfectly sober question. It wasn’t as though the country was scarcely populated and needed a few more million. In any case the immigration of other European peoples would have been far more preferable (how’s that to raise eyebrows). The second generation would be indistinguishable, and no problem. But no. The decisions made would make sure the biggest variations immaginally possible, religious and colour, is the way to go.

    • Jody Taylor

      And the slogans and jingles that accompanied that tidal wave of new arrivals are part of what get up my nose. We are a “tolerant” (I think that term really means “I don’t like you but I’ll put up with you”), “pluralistic”, “freedom-loving” (yeah, that one’s a hoot!) and liberal nation.


      • Damaris Tighe

        … diverse …diverse ….diverse ….diverse ….

        • Penny

          I am still in contact with my one-time political colleagues who pick up buzzwords like a hoover in a bowl of dust. They are always on-message: relishing multiculturalism, praising diversity, rejecting any notion that perhaps not all is as rosy as they claim. It is ironic to my mind, then, that their favourite buzzword term is “social cohesion” and that they involve themselves in “promoting harmony” initiatives. Neither of which would have even been dreamed up if not for a need which would appear to be contrary to their claims. And I don’t doubt for a moment that both these terms are common to most councils in the UK.

          • Damaris Tighe

            Every one of these buzzwords is Orwellian & indicates the exact opposite of their conventional meaning.

          • Colonel Mustard

            A very pertinent point. The ‘harmony’ is being artificially coerced and I think there are many who resent the coercion rather than the fact of diversity.

  • Jody Taylor

    You know something? I wouldn’t come with 100km of the UK for any reason at all. The multicultural Britain is not one which interests or fascinates me in any way. I was last there in 1971 and I prefer to keep the memory of that intact. Today, it’s well…….. (you put in your own derogatory term here).

  • Peter Shaw

    This is one of the best articles on immigration and its effects that I have ever read. The writer is someone of deep intellect who has clearly thought about this subject in depth from personal experience. Every single left wing liberal should read this article and reflect. The questions this poses are:

    (a) Has immigration left us stronger or weaker? In my opinion much, much weaker.
    (b) has immigration laid the seeds of widespread ethnic tensions that will cause civil war in the UK in the next twenty to fifty years? In my opinion without a doubt.
    (c) Could this all have been avoided by a sensible approach to immigration rather than the great flood we now have? Without a doubt the answer is yet this could have been avoided.
    (d) Are we watching the slow motion car crash of Europe? Most definitely yes…see Sweden and France for the advanced state of this car crash…

    God help us all….for what left wing liberal politicians have done in our name!

    • Jackthesmilingblack

      Game over, Britisher pals.
      Hate it and leave it.
      Jack, Japan Alps
      Currently wintering in warmer climes

  • Bonzo

    An excellent piece. As you rightly say, there can be no true debate about immigration unless it is accepted there is such a thing as a uniquely English culture, as there is a uniquely Scottish, Indian, or any other. We should value and protect cultural identity and allow it to change and develop at a rate decided by the people of that culture, not forcing change and cultural destruction by mass importation of other cultures. What is the alternative? One homogeneous world culture – a cultural grey gloop?

    • Colonel Mustard

      That is the key point. Up until about the 1990s the multi-ethnic character of the British had evolved fairly naturally. Then it became a top down imposed and managed “change” of “multi-cultural” ideology, controlled language and social engineering without the consent of the people.

      • Richard

        Once they got a taste of it, they loved it. They voted for it three times, after all. The true nature of Brits. We’ve seen the real character, stripped away from all that guff about the War and Churchill’s speeches. This is a sustained revelation of character, interrupted only by recession in 2008, or we’d still have Labour in power, and would still have their social engineering. Brits are quite willing to sell their country down the river for a few extra bob at the end of the week.

        • Kugelschreiber


          It was our undemocratic First Past the Post electoral system (as opposed to Proportional Representation) that prevented people from voting for Nationalist parties.

          For people were FORCED to vote STRATEGICALLY , instead of for the party they REALLY supported, simply in a desperate attempt to get rid of the latest dreadful extremist Labour/Tory party

          The LibLabCon politicians know this full well & don’t give a d..mn.

          • Kennybhoy

            Actually the Lib in LibLabCon has advocated and campaigned for PR for generations.

        • Kennybhoy

          Well and succinctly put. Been saying this since the late noughties in these forums, but good luck with this hereabouts. 🙂

        • Kennybhoy

          One proviso though. Just like individuals a people can wake up to themselves. Or at the very least they can be forced by hard, exigent reality to confront the consequences of their actions. Even if they refuse to admit to their own part in getting themselves into such a mess. A tipping point will come…

        • Neil Saunders

          Only they didn’t vote for it. Do you understand how the first-past-the-post electoral system works, or how it hands large parliamentary majorities to parties with a minority of the popular vote (even among those who actually turned out to vote)? This is one of the major sources of our present-day woes.

          • Richard

            The ones who disagreed didn’t vote. That says all it needs to.

          • Neil Saunders

            No. You misunderstand. The FPTP electoral system distorts the voting intentions of many of those who do vote.

          • Richard

            No, I understand, I really do. But it isn’t as if 20% voted Left and 40% didn’t. There is a margin, but even with urban weighting in favour of Labour, it would still take a fairly evenly-matched distribution.

          • Neil Saunders

            I barely understand a word of what you’ve just written, but I note that it bears no resemblance to what you previously wrote.

          • Richard

            Not really. Abstention from voting is also a type of voting. It says that you don’t care, or won’t commit. So if there are low turnouts, which I think has been the case quite a bit during Labour wins, it means that people who are opposed to your policy couldn’t be bothered, whilst those who agree with it could be. If Brits really were against what Labour was doing, surely they would have voted against it? Isn’t that how it works in the Westminster system?

          • Neil Saunders

            You’re chasing your own tail. Not voting also means that the would-be voter finds none of the “alternatives” on offer remotely palatable.

            Are you American, by the way? “Brits” is a term that the British (and particularly the English) seldom apply to themselves. This might explain your weak grasp of British politics.

          • Richard

            No, not an American, though made as foreign by British law and sentiment.

            I remember the snake-oil salesman charm of TB, but he was still preferred over Major by the UK populace. I have a long association with perfidy and betrayal where Brits are concerned. Rhodesia and similar may be before your time.

      • Kennybhoy

        ” Up until about the 1990s the multi-ethnic character of the British had evolved fairly naturally.”

        You think Enoch Powell was wrong then? Genuine question. Not trying to trap you. For the record I agree with your chronology and agree with Tom Stacey about Powell.

        • Colonel Mustard

          Not really. But there were two factors that overtook events that I’m not sure he predicted:-

          1. The way immigration was “weaponised” as part of a broader domestic agenda; in Powell’s day the immigrant population itself had not been so politicised, although to an extent its cause had

          2. The way that the subsequent rate and scale of immigration, as well as intermarriage, would itself diminish the notion of an identifiable settled “us” and arriving “them”. Once the concept of a multi-cultural society had taken root the English became just another identity group, not even recognised in official forms, and it was then relatively easy to characterise any attempt to maintain a predominant identity and culture as “racist”, etc.

          PS I’m not explaining this very well tonight, sorry.

    • Bonkim

      Already taking place if you care to look around the world.

    • Johnnydub

      The point is the elites have decidced that the World Wars were due to Nationalism, and thus the nation state (and by extension National Identity) has to be abolished.

      See when the mask slips: Peter Sutherland, a former Goldman Sachs banker and now an UN apparatchik:

      “EU should ‘undermine national homogeneity’ says UN migration chief”


      • Neil Saunders

        Peter Sutherland should be forced to live for five years on the minimum wage (with no additional, outside help) in the most “enriched” parts of a European city – say, the Sint-Jans-Molenbeek or Schaarbeek neighbourhoods of Brussels, the top floor of a tower-block in Peckham or Tottenham, the most Muslim part of Malmo, or one of the “banlieus” around Paris.

        It would be interesting to see how long his enthusiasm for open-door immigration and multiculturalism survived such an experience.

        The man is a banker! How is it that the left have become useful idiots for such people, and the organisations/corporations that they represent?

  • Colonel Mustard

    When the UN made its declaration about the Rights of Indigenous Peoples the UK Ambassador and Deputy Permanent Representative to the United Nations, Karen Pierce, “emphasized that the Declaration was non-legally binding and did not propose to have any retroactive application on historical episodes. National minority groups and other ethnic groups within the territory of the United Kingdom and its overseas territories did not fall within the scope of the indigenous peoples to which the Declaration applied.”

    If the English were to be considered an indigenous people then the UK government has certainly breached those rights in several particulars.

  • ItwasBlairwotdunnit

    Is it about ethnicity, or just religion? We had some fairly unsavoury perspectives on life from Christianity over the years which we manned-up and addressed. Witch-burning in the past, and banning Helen Ukpabio, an unsavoury Nigerian preacher, recently. Maybe we need the same perspective brought to Islam. We were happy to restrict religious intolerance in Christianity, but welcome the Saudis building mosques here, with a brand of Islam which is poles apart from the vast majority of moderate Muslims. We NEED to be setting the agenda here, as we did with our own “indigenous(ish)” religion. Most aspects will be tolerable, others need to be “haram”.

    • Colonel Mustard

      Too late. The government, central and local, surrendered the “indigenous” prerogative when they decided on a policy of multi-culturalism that almost expressed shame at the country’s former character, culture and traditions. It did not help that various non-indigenous public figures who had sought refuge here began to throw their weight about and were quickly aided and abetted by the subversive left, intent on breaking down our society for their own revolutionary purposes.

      Remarkably the government appeared to pander to, or at least appease all that. Certainly it seemed to have little confidence in the “values” it has recently re-discovered. It is now back-pedalling on multi-culturalism but not unequivocally and still sending out duplicitous, ambiguous and mealy mouthed messages about who and what we are. They can’t even keep the constituent nations of the UK united.

      The foolish decisions and policies of a succession of mediocre, incompotent governments have created a potential sectarian tinder box here. They have woken up to it but it’s too late and their actions will now be restricted to applying sticking plaster and fingers in the dyke, no doubt with further unintended consequences for our national heritage, culture, traditions and civil rights.

    • AverageGuyInTheStreet

      Is it about ethnicity…. looking at the pictures of the thousands of terrorists, criminals, and paedophile monsters that have enriched our world over the last couple of decades there is one MASSIVE elephant in the room. But we are not supposed to notice it. Until we do, things will continue to get worse.

  • Graham Pearson

    The famous encounter between Gordon Brown and Gillian Duffy (a labour voter) highlighted the contempt politicians have for the views of ordinary people on the subject of immigration.

    Thank you for an excellent piece.

    • Jackthesmilingblack

      Brother Gordon really shot himself in the foot, didn’t he!

  • The Tories had a decade to deal with this before the tragedy of Labour narrow ’64 victory, and their subsequent landslide in ’66. Churchill was planning to go to the country with the slogan ‘Keep Britain White’ in the ’55 election, but was forced to resign/retire through ill health. Eden and Macmillan could see what was happening but didn’t act. It was by far the biggest disaster in our history. I can’t see we’d be worse off now if we’d surrendered in 1940. We’d still have been a nation. We won’t be for much longer as things are

    • Richard

      Very sadly, and perversely, the winning of the War by the Anglophone countries has ensured their ultimate destruction. Not only theirs, but the whole of the Western World.

  • willshome

    As someone once said…

Some for religion came, and some for bread:

    Two hundred thousand pair of wooden shoes,
Who, God be thank’d, had nothing left to lose;

    To heaven’s great praise did for religion fly,

    To make us starve our poor in charity.
In ev’ry port they plant their fruitful train,

    To get a race of true-born Englishmen;
Whose children will, when riper years they see,

    Be as ill-natured, and as proud as we;

    Call themselves English, foreigners despise,

    Be surly like us all, and just as wise…

    No Roman now, no Britain does remain;

    Wales strove to separate, but strove in vain:

    The silent nations undistinguish’d fall,
And Englishman’s the common name for all.
Fate jumbled them together, God knows how;
What e’er they were they’re true-born English now.

    The wonder which remains is at our pride,

    To value that which all wise men deride.
For Englishmen to boast of generation,

    Cancels their knowledge, and lampoons the nation.
A true-born Englishman’s a contradiction,
In speech an irony, in fact a fiction.

    • Colonel Mustard

      And he wrote in 1703 “If foreigners misbehave in their several stations and employments, I have nothing to do with that; the laws are open to punish them equally with natives, and let them have no favour.”

      Now it is different. The rule of law is selectively enforced in the interests of “multi-culturalism”.

    • Ricayboy

      Are we supposed to be impressed? Who’s claiming that the English are ethnically pure any more than any other nation?

      As for me, I am a true born Englishman because I was born in England and identify with a nation called the English – whatever their ethnic composition.

    • Neil Saunders

      Written by a mischievous Anglo-Irishman.

  • Sean L

    In Scottish nationalism we witness the same dynamic in operation as sustains multiculturalism. The idea behind devolution was to contain nationalism. But all too predictably it gave it a new lease of life, inaugurating a new class of politicians dedicated to the nationalist cause, more or less equivalent to the emergence here in England of what the former Member for Wolverhampton, long before their actuality, promised would follow, namely what he called *agents provocateur* or as they’ve come to be known, ‘community leaders’, a handful being now MPs. And of course that prediction was based on *far* fewer numbers than there are now. According to him it’s long past “immigration” being the issue. For even in the late 60s he was advocating voluntary repatriation to prevent the development of separate political constituencies based on imported group identities.

  • Bonkim

    Mr Stacey – the notion of nation-states only gained significance in the late 19th/early 20th century, as Empires started breaking up and throwing various ethnic, religious and cultural groups were thrown into a state of self-doubt and social conflict – refer to recent events in ex-Yugoslavia when the Croats, Slovenians, and Bosnians had to invent an instant history and nation heritage to replace the joined up Yugoslavian socialist brotherhood. National, religious, and ethnic groups have been evolving, merging and separating all through history and the process will continue – only modern technology, air travel, and fast communications have accelerated the process not allowing the groups to interact and gain stability in a new identity.

    What was defined as British values and code of behaviour say a hundred years back had already changed considerably by the time of WW1 and 2 – and an Englishman suddenly appearing in an English city will have great difficulty understanding the spoken and written language and the mindsets of the people living today. That is even without the new immigrants in Britain.

    • Colonel Mustard

      “the notion of nation-states only gained significance in the late 19th/early 20th century”


      • Bonkim

        Read up world history and list how many nation states existed in the 18th and 19th centuries and how tribal and state governance was organised all through the dark and Middle Ages following the break up of the Roman Empire in Europe.

        • Colonel Mustard

          You read up world history. What you are suggesting is just a theory peddled by ideologue “historians” like Hobsbawn.

          • Bonkim

            Which century did you serve as a Colonel Colonel?

          • Colonel Mustard

            The 17th. And it was for a nation state . . .

          • Bonkim

            Which side did you fight in the 30 years War and the English Civil War?

          • Colonel Mustard

            Whichever paid better at the time. But I remained English.

          • Bonkim

            An English Mercenary?

    • Neil Saunders

      Not true. Nation-states have existed for centuries (even if nations, then and now, did not always correspond to political frontiers, or emerged after decades or centuries of struggle). Their legal status was strengthened, of course, by the Treaty of Westphalia, but they pre-dated this.

      • Bonkim

        Nations evlove as all other features in human groups – some die off new ones are created – some were invented for particular purposes in history and took off, some formed by smaller tribes joining together or by migration, conquests or other ways that human groups gel. New ones have been created in recent centuries/decades by the break up of large Empires. The story continues. Nothing is fixed in stone – ever evolving.

        • Neil Saunders

          Where did I say that anything was fixed in stone? But in addition to organic evolution of the kind you mention, there are sudden upheavals and imposed changes, and it is these that are pertinent to the current debate.

          • Bonkim

            .. and there will be opposing forces in social interactions and as in nature the resultant trajectory will be defined by these interactions. I don’t see nature or human societies and there values in black and white or fixed norms – and yes we live in a time when changes are accelerated by technology, instant communications and speed of travel. Numbers can be overwhelming and giving rise to the concerns expressed which I share. However the objective should be to find solutions without destroying the values we are fighting for.

  • Terry Field

    Powell was, and his memory is a national treasure. The left is a social disease. We should no longer tolerate the poison of socialism and the fascism of the left.

  • Wobbly One

    A brilliant lesson to all.

  • Julie

    The nation state is a racist social construct as it naturally discriminates against non-citizens, which people like Tom Stacy might like to reflect on before they start blathering on about the “soul of a nation” and the so-called evils of immigration. Stacey’s apparent adoration of bigot’s like Enoch Powell is truly sickening.

    • Sean L

      Enoch Powell was an astonishingly accomplished man. Translating Ancient Greek at the age of seven, he became a University Professor at 25. The only man who earned that honour at a younger age was the philosopher Nietzsche who pipped him by a few months. During the war he rose through the ranks to become Brigadier. Stationed in India, such was his love of that place and its culture that he became proficient in Urdu. What do they know of England. . . Far from a bigot he was a Christian with friends and admirers across the political spectrum, Michael Foot and Dennis Healey to name a couple. The latter reckoned Powell’s speech on Kenya was the finest performance he’d witnessed in all his years in the House, however he might have opposed his overall political stance. Your spectacularly stupid remark scarcely merits a response and I’d imagine, hope, that you’re still very young. . . but I can’t bear to see the man’s name traduced like that. By all means argue against him, he’d relish that. But just to slander the man like that does you no credit. Check out his Wiki page for good potted bio. A nationalist absolutely, a bigot or racist never; a staunch Tory, but a man who forty years ago campaigned for the Labour Party; who told Margaret Thatcher that he’d fight for this country even if it was communist; as far from the popular conception of the modern Conservative as you could imagine, his name effectively verboten in the party today needless to add. And the media. All the more reason to at least give him a hearing, at least for persons of reason. As district multiculturalism. The idea behind devolution was to contain nationalism. But all too predictably it gave it a new lease of life, inaugurating a new class of politicians dedicated to the nationalist cause, more or less equivalent to the emergence here in England of what the former Member for Wolverhampton, long before their actuality, promised would follow, namely what he called *agents provocateur*, or as they’ve come to be known, ‘community leaders’, a handful being now MPs. And of course that prediction was based on *far* fewer numbers than there are now. According to him it’s long past “immigration” being the issue. For even in the late 60s he was advocating voluntary repatriation to prevent the development of separate political constituencies based on imported group identities.As distinct from bigots. . .

    • Sean L

      Enoch Powell was an astonishingly accomplished man. Translating Ancient Greek as a child, he became a Univerity Professor at 25. The only man who earned that honour at a younger age was the philosopher Nietzsche who pipped him by a few months. During the war he rose through the ranks to become Brigadier. Stationed in India, such was his love of that place that he became proficient in Urdu. What do they know of England . . . Far from a bigot he was a Christian, with friends and admirers across the political spectrum, Michael Foot and Denis Healey to name a couple. The latter reckoned that his speech on Kenya was the most moving performance he’d ever witnessed in all his years in the House, however opposed he might have been to Powell’s overall political stance. Your fatuous remark scarcely merits a repsonse . . . but I can’t see the man’s name traduced like that. By all means have a go, put an arguement – he’d relish that. But just to slander the man like that does you no credit. Check out Wiki page for reasonable potted bio. A nationalist for sure, a bigot or racist never; a staunch Tory but a man who forty eyars ago campaigned for the Labour Party; who told Margaret Thatcher that he’d fight for his country even if it was communist; about as far from the the popular conception of the modern Conservative as you could imagine, his name effectively verboten in the party today needless to add. And the media. All the more reason to give him a hearing. if your’e a person of reason, that is. As distinct from a mere bigot. . .

      • Bonkim

        A brilliant man and his view on large scale immigration and resulting break up of social organisation is all too valid. Small numbers can be assimilated but if incoming numbers exceed a certain level assimilation is replaced by self-sustaining national and cultural groups that the exist in virtual apartheid from the rest.

    • Colonel Mustard

      Tripe. That the nation state is a “racist social construct” is a bigoted left wing construct contrived to subvert it.

    • Bonkim

      Human groups always discriminate against others with different belief and cultural systems. In a world organized along national/religious/ethnic lines it is inevitable that outsiders would not be made welcome – that is reality. Whether immigration is beneficial or a handicap is another discussion – look at the real world.

    • Neil Saunders

      When I want to hear direct quotations from the Puffin Book of Political Correctness, Julie, I’ll ask.

  • Michael Worcester

    the left wing shouting ‘racist’ to close off debate just held back a debate so that when immigration could be debated all the pent-up anger came out. No account of the rate of integration was and still is not taken into account with looking at where we would want immigrants to come from plus the numbers were sufficiently high enough to form ethnic ghettos. Labour still avoids the discussion and talks about having more border guards to count them in and out and no-one is fooled. Looking closer at the reason it is not just votes that stop them from acting it is that Labour is compromised with cultural and religious bias. If you need evidence just look at the councillors for Birmingham for evidence http://www.birmingham.gov.uk/members.

  • sebastian2

    I think the popular view of Enoch Powell then and now wasn’t that he blighted the language of the immigration debate, but that he gave voice to the common sentiment. He told it as it was. It was the candid expression of constituents’ feelings that offended the elite rather than the commoner. “We can’t allow this!” they said. And so they didn’t. He was hounded and denigrated.

    But what have the hounders and denigrators allowed instead? They’ve allowed the airing of opinion that we should’ve had to be silenced – on pain of “racism”. They’ve allowed a certain situation so to grow and enlarge, as to cause genuine consternation and anxiety leading to resentment and suspicion. But it was “racist” to mention it. They’ve permitted borders to become hardly borders at all, with derisory controls and checks. To ask for improvements was “racist”. They’ve consented to – as Nigel Farage correctly stated – the establishment of a 5th column, which it’s “racist” to admit to. They conceded – at best by benevolent negligence or wishful thinking or at worst by cynical design – to the cultural and religious fragmentation of our country and forbade us to mention it, because that would be “racist”. But the same people all but licenced a certain group’s hate speech and their rhetoric of partition; though it was “racist” to object to it. If all this isn’t blighting the language – the proper, open discussion – of this topic then I don’t know what is.

    A debate? We’ve never really had one. It’s not the language of it that was blighted, but the whole notion of talking about it at all: blighted by the people who prohibited dissent. Blighted by those who won arguments by banning them.

    Enoch Powell sought to open the discussion up – he was perceptive and vividly lucid. He never blighted anything. His opponents did, which is partly why we’re in our present mess.

  • red2black

    Perhaps unfortunately, the only Virgil that a lot Mr Powell’s working class supporters have ever heard of is the pilot of Thunderbird 2.

  • John Croston

    These quotes by the treasonous but typical Roy Hattersley are examples of how British electorate have been betrayed by their politicians over the years –

    “Should I, in 1964, have called for what a clear majority of my constituents, and most of the country, undoubtedly wanted – the repatriation of all Commonwealth immigrants?”


    “For most of my 33 years in Westminster, I was able to resist Sparkbrook’s demands about the great issues of national policy – otherwise, my first decade would have been spent opposing all Commonwealth immigration and my last calling for withdrawal from the European Union.”


    Without a doubt this importation of alien peoples was the greatest betrayal of the British people in the entire history of these islands. And the worst is yet to come.

  • Baz

    Sorry Enoch we should have listened.

  • Anabel Torres-Regala

    America r non WHITE origin, Australia r non WHITE origin.. Canada r non WHITE origin.. the world r over populated by WHITE people.. so stfu white british people.. that what it feels like being taken over by other nation..

    • Bonkim

      Which hell-hole did you crawl out of? Human beings have always migrated/colonized/taken over all through history. White/non-white has no meaning in that context. Yes socially better organised, and technologically and militarily superior humans do tend to dominate – haven’t you heard ‘survival of the fittest’? But that does not mean white will always dominate – what matters is social organisation, and technological, and military fitness – Colour does not come into it.

  • Wiggi

    Time has gone by and many have missed the point. You first have to look and reason why anyone should want to migrate. Most people leave their place of birth and move to another country to seek a new and better life, either for themselves or their family! What many who do so, do not take into consideration, is the one of integration! Like many of our commonwealth countries you have to have a job to go to! No lies or gimmicks on this, as prosecution can take place if you are lying, Sponsorship by an employer together with approval by the Host Country that first seeks any criminal case brought against you! The integration bit covers many items in everyday life. The migrant must obey Local Laws and Government ones. Our Country is generous in almost all area’s but we should demand loyalty! The one big section in Migration that come to our shores defy so many of our laws and ruling that we tend to not take to task. Education for both sex students without discrimination (always on the agenda), Marriage laws cannot be forced upon any individuals (Still going on) if they are members of this country, marriages should be made here!
    Genital Mutilation! (This also is still going on) Planning traitorous action against the state,(Known by our security services) all these and possibly more we should expect and demand! The braking of them should lead to deportation of origin! Or in cases of Religious opposition to our laws to any Country of that Religion. Not once have I stated what Religion! We all know and so do our Political Parties. We need to go back to basics! Ignore Europe’s Human Rights and design our own in Remembrance of 800years and the beginning of Englands laws stated in Magna Carta that gave freedom to the World. If people come to our Country and do not like the way we conduct our lives they are free to leave.

  • VSP

    At the run up to elections , I cannot praise enough the words of this author. We are the very opposite of a theocracy with values derived from both a Christian and Enlightenment ethos. Values for a free society and expression.Do we really have the right democratic minded leaders in charge of western values today.

    What did they know of Mohammedism or Islam when allowing vast numbers to migrate here?

    It took me less than a few days to find and read up about what Mohammed advocated to Muslims in none Muslim lands. It fitted exactly with what we have witnessed with abuses of women , lies about being peaceful, and turning democratic values to be used against democracy. It also spoke of taking for free what they can. Yet we still have apologists for the burdens they have created and attacks upon our centuries worth of wars and struggles for freedoms. It simply is not good enough. How can you trust a none democratic people prepared to be deceitful. Islam has no place in the west. We should not tolerate deceitful politicians either.
    Thank goodness we still have such a voice being published, and real truth to expose the charlatan politicians.
    Know now, when deceit masquerades as truth

  • Wiggi

    Just wasn’t he so right? A man born well before his time! At that time all the press and Politicians gave him hell…..accept the public who had been overwhelmed by Migrants and feeling the pressure!

  • VSP

    t the run up to elections , I cannot praise enough the words of this author. We are the very opposite of a theocracy with values derived from both a Christian and Enlightenment ethos. Values for a free society and expression.Do we really have the right democratic minded leaders in charge of western values today.

    What did they know of Mohammedism or Islam when allowing vast numbers to migrate here?

    It took me less than a few days to find and read up about what Mohammed advocated to Muslims in none Muslim lands. It fitted exactly with what we have witnessed with abuses of women , lies about being peaceful, and turning democratic values to be used against democracy. It also spoke of taking for free what they can. Yet we still have apologists for the burdens they have created and attacks upon our centuries worth of wars and struggles for freedoms. It simply is not good enough. How can you trust a none democratic people prepared to be deceitful. Islam has no place in the west. We should not tolerate deceitful politicians either.
    Thank goodness we still have such a voice being published, and real truth to expose the charlatan politicians.
    Know now, when deceit masquerades as truth

  • Paul Wonnacott

    There’s an almost subconscious fear, even in those that don’t know their own history, in the British, due to our history as a nation, we are a nation of immigrants, most coming here as peaceful settlers, going back thousands of years
    The fear is because the first Christians who came here were refugees fleeing persecution from Rome, from a very small minority, their religion came to be the dominant one, so who’s to say the same will not happen with Islam?
    Not in our life times, but in historical terms our individual life spans are small, but things can change fast we you look at history in a “Big Picture ” context, say 200 years
    In fact the only people who are helping maintain a sizable British Population are the irresponsible poor teenage mums, keeping the numbers up with children they can’t afford…. who can’t get a job that gives them STATUS
    This is the big issue STATUS in a society that this is the be all and end all, being a criminal gives that, stacking shelves in Tesco’s doesn’t, working in a factory used to, being a miner had status, our military is a third of the size it was 40 years ago, that gave many people status

  • Edward1

    A 2014 University College report stated that immigrants from Europe since 2004 had made a positive contribution to the economy but ones arriving from outside Europe since the 1990’s had cost our economy £120 billion. The latter conclusion was buried in the small print! You do not need to talk about race or soul to conclude that mass immigration from outside Europe has been an economic disaster.

    • Neil Saunders

      What is meant by “a positive contribution to the economy” though? If you import warm bodies you create a labour surplus that helps to depress wages, while at the same time you expand the consumer base. In this sense, the economy grows. But are the financial costs to the society factored in (such as the impact on infrastructure)? More to the point, are the (inherently unquantifiable) social costs considered (such as overcrowding, loss of identity, tensions between different races, religions and nationalities, etc.)?

      As always, the key question is this: Cui bono?

      • Edward1

        I cannot answer for University College but it is significant that a left leaning body has highlighted the negative contribution of immigrants from outside the EU of £120 billion.

        • Neil Saunders

          Probably because said left-leaning body knows that very few ordinary people will be aware of their findings, and even fewer will understand the implications.

  • knightmt

    Hilarious comment stream. I liked the article but could not understand all of it:(

    • red2black

      They missed out the bit about Mr Farage being Mr Powell’s chauffeur. Classical composers need to stay in their own countries and learn a bit of Ancient Greek, and people who don’t mind immigrants are racists. Something like that, but I’m not sure.

  • Trevor Grimbrew

    Integration has never happened, take a look at no go areas in this country. Those that deny this–are a bunch of Ostrich heads

  • Paul Wonnacott

    Also note that out of the waves of immigrants then only the Islamic ones have failed to integrate, the Sikh and Hindu people have all moved out of ghetto’s like the Jewish before them, none of them ever tried to preach , convert or spread their beliefs, Far from it, you can’t just decide to convert to Judaism or Sikhism etc, so many hoops to jump through few ever try
    Like our Afro Carib brothers and sisters these came here wanting to be British, many had worked for the colonial establishment especially the military and to an extent we actually owed them
    In fact there would not be many white Christians in England if the Irish hadn’t been coming here for the last 300 years in huge amounts
    Given human nature, I can see overcoming the quantum paradox that is time travel will happen before peace on earth

    • WTF

      I agree and it can only be Islam that has created the problems that Muslims have and by definition, the problems they give us.

      It obviously isn’t the colour of skin that is an issue as Asians (as the media conveniently use when it suits them), are generally tarred with the same brush no matter which country they come from. Coming from the same land mass its obvious visual appearances will be similar so that doesn’t explain the difference in attitude between Muslims and all other Asian groups.

      Similarly it can’t be culture as culture in a specific area of the world will be similar unless there’s a force that prevents it (Islam anyone). Asian culture amongst non Muslims are all very similar to each other however Muslim culture is one on its own.

      So discounting both appearance and culture the only thing left that explains the gulf between Muslims and the ROW has to be the Islamic religion. Elsewhere, I also compared ethnic minorities like Jews who had succeeded with Muslims that haven’t and it’s clear that many other ethnic minorities have succeeded in improving their lot and aren’t stuck on welfare in their ghettos with a mega chip on their shoulder.

      1st generation Muslims who escaped from places like Uganda seemed to appreciate what the UK offered them but its subsequent generational male Muslims that are generally have a problem. They carry an attitude that everyone else should treat them with respect when they lack any self respect themselves. Islam suffocates them or radicalises them and they look for someone to blame. Until they can grow up and release the religious shackles that are strangling them, nothing will change.

  • John Hamilton

    I live in Margate. Cliftonville was once the top place to Holladay. I brought a house there it was so nice. The place was alive with Holladay makers enjoying the shops, cinema and other attractions. Then thy opened up the flood gates To quote a politician. its a slum now thanks to our Eastern block friends. Before there arrival I had a lovely house in Cliftonville. When they arrived it made life a living hell. Prostitution, drugs, and a Muffler. It gave me a nerves breakdown so I had to sell at a match reduced price. I have no objection them entering UK. But thy take on our culture. Cliftonville is a violent place to walk at night. I hope Ukip can sort it out.

    • Bonkim

      Have a gud Holladay in Kliftonvil.

      • Neil Saunders

        Haven’t you got any useful contributions to make, Bonkim?

        • Bonkim

          You might well ask that to yourself.

          • Neil Saunders

            I was asking you, with reference to this specific context. You might have noticed that I’ve “liked” other remarks you’ve made, which I believe to have made a useful contribution.

          • Bonkim

            I see these discussions detached from personal biases although we are all swayed by our belief systems. As such try to comment without reference to other/previous comments – except where they stand out. Bringing personalities destroys the discussion.

          • Neil Saunders

            I wasn’t “bringing personalities”, Bonkim (whatever that might mean); I was pointing out that criticising someone’s spelling in order to discredit their argument is a cheap shot.

          • Bonkim

            all in good humour – no malice. Some of the spelling appear to be mis-spelt deliberately – I am sure Mr Hamilton has a sense of humour. UKIP supporters are all jolly good chaps.

    • Neil Saunders

      Your only mistake (other than the typos that Bonkim cruelly and smugly points out) is to “have no objection to them entering UK”. This is the crux of the problem.

  • PAUL



  • AJAX


  • helmckie mcdonald

    Mr Enoch Powell was way ahead of his time & gave great advice to the government who choice to ignore it now the horse has truly bolted this country still has not shut the stable door & our own identity is disappearing along with all our assets & policies to govern ourselves thanks to E.U interference & a very weak back-boned government + other so called leading political parties

  • AJAX

    Nice mini-essay, but it’s quite wrong in airing the myth about Powell’s ‘Rivers of Blood’ speech poisoning the waters of the immigration issue for a generation & making it untouchable for the politicians.
    The politicians on watch from the 1950s-2000’s who could perceive the threat (many couldn’t to begin with) that the Melting Pot Society model entails kept quiet not because of anything Powell said in that Wolverhampton Address, but because there was a powerful intellectual dogma ruling the roost on this issue which combined: Socialist ideology, cultural propaganda coming out of the USA (via literature & movies) relating to that society’s black civil rights struggle, & the horrifying spectre of the Hitler’s racial ideology & mass murder of Europe’s Jewish populations.

  • anon

    enoch powel was righ, so is nigel farage, yet gov after gov choose to ignore, why because they would be deemed racist, wake up gov, I have said to my friends in years to come in uk we will be fighting in the streets unless we stop immigration/asylum seekers/illegal immigrants.

  • Ovida Yosef

    I reccomend that everyone in this country reads a book by one Robert Winder entitled ‘Bloody Foriegners’
    Many will be surprised to find that we ‘Brits’ are in fact a nation of Immigrants,the southern tribes that welcomed the Romans had hardly stopped speaking the continental languages they came with ,then of course the romans themselves were mostly from the provinces of Empire,first recorded existance of black people in Britain ? is on Hadrians Wall near Newcastle where a plaque say’s”this bit of wall was built by Nubians” then of course came the Angles[from where we get the name England]the saxons and Jutes,for two hundred years the country was diveded into Saxon law and Dane law,which brings us to the Normans,themselves a Viking clan that settled in northern France,this gave us ‘English’ kings who spoke French until 1400,in 1312 there were riots against the Flemish and Walloon weavers,in 1290 all the Jews of Britain were expelled,by the 15th century it was Itallians coming to satisfy our need for glassware,then the Heugenots,Germans,more Dutch King William of Orange was Dutch,he was followed by a whole dynasty of German Kings,a quarter of Nelsons crew at Trafalgar were not British and one tenth of his crew were in fact black,we have persecuted people for being Pagan,Protestant , Catholic and of course Jews,we have persecuted people for not being the ‘right sort’ of protestant,Arabs and other Muslims have lived and traded in Britain since the Crusades,so beware whom you persecute,it may backfire on you

    • Ricayboy

      Once again an attempt to belittle and deny English identity. You could make a similar case for every other European country.

    • Arthur Ascii

      Thanks for the history lesson, but I think you’ll find we’re already aware. Once again you’ve made the mistake of confusing small scale immigration with the problem of today – uncontrolled, mass immigration creating a clash of cultures and ghettoes within cities.

      Leaving aside for a moment the fact that, when the Romans withdrew a lot of those Nubians and others went south, never to return, those invaders who took decades and centuries to conquer small parts of the east of England and who did stay added to the gene pool. Over the centuries, Britain’s identity was established. It’s been over a 1,000 years since the Norman conquest and they were practically cousins anyway, so culturally they weren’t so dissimilar.

      The descendants of all the people you mention, who can trace their ancestry back and who live in Britain, would consider themselves British and loyal to Britain.

      Vast numbers of people (not all of them, but many) who have arrived in the past 20 years feel no loyalty to Britain and see it as a place from which they can take as opposed to somewhere to which they can contribute and to which they feel loyal.

      • Bonkim

        Particularly from EU nations all having strong sense of their own nationalities – Europe is much more race/religion sensitive than Britain.

  • anon

    our border force is a joke, no disrespect to those doing their job, it has been done on the cheap. our police force decimated, what chance do we have in saving lives if terrorist attack, okay if you live in London, fast armed response but what about the rest of us, how long would it take to get armed response in northern city?

  • HappyNewYear

    nice to see a well written article looking at the real issues of immigration – the economic ones are well rehearsed and currently crushing the NHS. Like the author I see conflicts around the world playing out local race issues and I have no doubt that the UK and/or Europe could see the same. A quick look into European history can see that it is possible if not probable. My view is that the immigrants are not British but have been dumped here by Governments for a number of reasons – economic, the delusion that different people’s people can live together in harmony, and by the Labour Party to cynically create extra votes for themselves. I have looked into these reasons and the only one that has any validity is for their to be limited immigration for purely economic reasons. The other reasons will just create conflict.

  • Bernard Koppes

    I am a native Luxembourger, and I lived in Britain for 11 years, very happily. I went to uni, got a job, started (successfully) 2 companies, before moving abroad (to Dubai actually), with my wife (who is English) who I met in London.
    I find quasi every detail in this article either irrelevant (why does this matter anyway?), or misleading (anomalous Luxembourg? What? Have you ever been there?), plain elitistic, and, let’s be frank, borderline racist, and factually even wrong.
    London, which has received about 90% of all inwards European immigration, is the one city where UKIP doesn’t get a foot on the ground. Maybe through frequent contact, English residents of London have noticed that there is only one soul: the human one. We are all equal as humans, and our presence as foreigners didn’t/doesn’t hurt the English soul, far from it. It is enriching it, as it has for centuries. The fish and chips was introduced by European Jews, and now the curry is the national dish. 20-30% of the NHS is run by foreign nurses and doctors, so how can we be a “drain” on resources? It just makes no sense.

    I think the author has produced a big blob of bla-bla here, with no relevance to modern Britain in 2015 (which might be why noone talks about it in those terms), and quite frankly, it is belittling the intelligence of the majority of open-minded and self-confident Brits who do not think that the odd Polish plumber or German banker poses a risk or unjury to their soul or identity.

    Just as the Luxembourgers think nothing wrong of the approx. 20,000 Brits who live in Luxembourg by the way.

    But maybe that is the anomalous aspect that the author was referring to. If that is the case, then I don’t mind being anomalous. I call it decent, if you ask me.

    • Ricayboy

      UKIP doesn’t do well in London because of the large number of people who are either immigrants or of immigrant extraction.

      Luxembourg is a completely different country than England and the pressures we face here can’t be compared to what you experience there.

      As for the NHS, if there were fewer immigrants we’d need fewer health care workers.

      • Bernard Koppes

        I have thought about it, and I think you are right. I was 100% a problem in England. I will not return, as I feel very guilty for having hung around, offending so many English souls.
        I feel less guilty for not paying GBP50k a year in income taxes in the UK anymore, and not taking anything out of the system (I even paid for my studies). But that doesn’t matter. Lots of English souls can pick that up, no problem.
        Good bye.

        • AverageGuyInTheStreet

          Our problem here is we’ve had virtually uncontrolled immigration with no quality control over who comes in, or any control over numbers. The result is millions of useless leeches have washed up on our shores.

        • Ricayboy

          Bernard, nobody wanted to offend you and nobody begrudges you your time in England. I admire you for making it such a success.

          Nobody is saying that we don’t want any immigration at all but there have to be sensible limits on the quality and quantity of immigrants we take in. Our country is crowded and has finite resources. We have our own culture and want to live in a country that resembles the land we grew up in, not a mish mash of foreign cultures. We want people who live here who love our country, not just to come here and use it for their own selfish purposes.

          If you love your own country you’ll surely understand that sentiment.

    • Neil Saunders

      In other words, you’re precisely the kind of rootless, international carpet-bagger who doesn’t care about national identity as long as you’re enjoying a high material standard of living.

      Just like the dullards in Westminster and Brussels, who can’t understand why a poor, white English person might resent being dispossessed by immigrants.

      • Bernard Koppes

        You are guilty of attempted murder! Murder by laughter! 😉

        The funny thing is … if you and I met in a pub, we’d probably have a jolly chat, and you’d walk away thinking “what a lovely chap, nice guy”. You’d probably not even notice I am a foreigner.
        Yet here, in the net’s anonymity, you go ahead and call me names.
        But what can one expect from a bitter poor white?
        If one feels “poor”, then one has 3 options:

        – cry for a cuddle
        – get up one’s lazy arse and do something
        – blame someone else for it, ideally a hardworking foreigner from Europe and say he “dispossessed” you (how he did that remains quite elusive, but anyway, let’s just say it and vote UKIP)

        I got up my arse about 18 years ago, and got going. I never blamed anyone.

        PS: yes, I have done well for myself. And I feel no remorse for it. And yes, you are right in one way: I feel I deserve a lot more than just being a national of some country. No country defines me. I define myself. That’s called character. A man’s gotta be a man.

        • Neil Saunders

          I can’t be held even indirectly responsible for your having an infantile sense of humour.

          “[P]oor bitter white”. Imagine the howls of righteous indignation from the PC brigade (yourself included, I’m sure) if you referred to any other racial category in this way!

          I think you’re an idiot, and I’m pretty sure I’d find you obnoxious if I encountered you in any social situation.

          My anger about the importation of cheap labour from outside the UK is directed at the elites and their useful idiots among the left, rather than the immigrants themselves (“hardworking” or otherwise, although I suspect their USP is more to do with being “cheapworking”).

          So you define yourself (and follow the money)? In other words, you’re guilty as charged (to develop your legal metaphor) of being a rootless, international carpet-bagger. We can do without people like you, if you think you’ve “gotta be” that.

          • Bernard Koppes

            I didn’t call anyone anyone names, not even you, right after you called me (for no reason) a carpet-bagger.
            But I sense that I have touched on a touchy subject here.
            How can I be a cheapworking foreigner if I paid up to 50k in taxes to the UK government? Makes no sense to me.
            On average, EU immigrants are the ONLY social group in the UK that pays in more in taxes than they take out (it’s about GBP2100 net per year more than they take out. This is an official ONS figure, so it is not my opinion, just a fact.).
            In other words, for every EU immigrant, the Englishman is actually better off, as they are subsidised directly.
            One of the key reasons why the UK does so well is BECAUSE it is such an attractive place for doing business, and EVERYONE has been better off for it. It is a win-win situation.
            I will not allow myself to be dragged down to the level of name-calling, because that is a level where I will be beaten by everyone who is more experienced at that level.
            Oh, and when it comes to personal encounters: I still think you’d be a lovely guy, and I still don’t think you’d think of me as an idiot. Honest. And no, I do have an identity, but I determine that one. I will not be told who I have to be by any nationalist. So here is my identity: a human being. That’s all. I think that’s good enough. I am happy wherever kind people live, and thank God, that’s the case in most places.
            Let’s all take it easy and be kind to each other. Noone’s done any harm to anyone, even if Nigel Farrage is trying to feast on individuals’ personal disappointments. A pathetic guy in Germany 75 years ago also did that, and see how that ended.
            We have fought (and died) enough over the last centuries for no other reason than hate and name-calling.
            Let’s stop that circle for good.

          • Neil Saunders

            I called you a carpet-bagger (and not, incidentally, a “cheapworker” – I suspect you’re strictly white-collar and salaried); now you’re calling me (and people who broadly share my opinions) Hitler.

            Open borders depress wages and create social tensions. The real left has traditionally been protectionist, but the new-model PC “left” are happy to be cheerleaders for globalisation (under the utopian banner of multiculturalism).

  • Patriot = Victor Meldrews Brot

    Powell’s speech, if often taken a bit out of context, was right, and although in todays so Politically Correct Britain, where anyone who speaks the truth is a pariah, a bigot or a UKIP member etc, the truth is that Multiculturalism (generally) has not produced the Utopia dreamed of by the Human Rights, Left wing, do-gooder brigade.
    These people, who see no bad in anyone, even if they hate us and all we stand for, expected that massive immigration would achieve integration, cultural harmony and social inclusion (all fine words invented to achieve this aim), where a society where everyone, no matter who you were, where you came from, what Religion you followed (or no Religion) what ever colour, belief, sexuality etc would achieve a Society of respect, understanding and tolerance for everyone.
    Was this a naive philosophy? could this philosophy actually have achieved what had never been achieved in the past, this aim of uniting all people of the world together?
    After the last World War, Politicians and thinkers came up with this ideal, primarily to avoid future conflict, but now we are paying the price of this folly.
    It’s not unfair to say, or is it untrue, that if the West had not ‘interfered in Islamic Lands, that we would not be suffering under the hands of Jihadist Terror merchants, as it is folly to suggest it would not have happened.
    The truth is, Muslims have killed far more Fellow Muslims than all of the West’s ‘interventions’, that most of the Islamic Nations are vastly corrupt, they have invented little, are far to insular and I am afraid our Churchill was right when he said
    “Individual Moslems may show splendid qualities – but the influence of the religion paralyses the social development of those who follow it. No stronger retrograde force exists in the world. Far from being moribund, Mohammedanism is a militant and proselytizing faith. It has already spread throughout Central Africa, raising fearless warriors at every step; and were it not that Christianity is sheltered in the strong arms of science, the science against which it had vainly struggled, the civilization of modern Europe might fall, as fell the civilization of ancient Rome.”
    And this was years ago!
    Enough said.

  • Nymeria Meliae

    There has never been a ‘we’ that represents a national identity… currently we define ourselves against immigrants and Muslims – often mixing the two distinct categories as one and disenfranchising an entire generation of British of their national identity and force them into their religious identity. Before ‘we’ defined itself in comparison to the poor, to women, to homosexuals, to the Irish, to the Scots, to the Welsh, to the Geordies, to the Scousers, to the Northerners, to the working class, etc. etc. etc. etc.

    ‘we’ has always meant those with wealth and power and while it includes others when convenient it actually excludes the vast majority of the nation.

    • justsomeone

      What was it a Muslim immigrant with pro-Jihadist views said when asked if he considers himself British? “Just because you’re born in a stable doesn’t make you a horse”. The number of those who see themselves as a separate nation is bound to grow. They don’t see British history as having anything to do with them. They haven’t embraced it. This is the crucial aspect of identity.

      • Nymeria Meliae

        ‘they’ are denied it… born in this country to parents who were born in this country… speaking English with a local accent… many not even having the wealth or means to travel abroad… educated in English schools… but ‘we’ still call them immigrants? ‘We’ still refer to them as Asian and not European… and when ‘we’ do allow them the ‘British’ tag it comes with a qualification such as ‘British Muslim’ ‘British Asian’ etc. not given to the ‘we’ which is simply referred to as ‘British’ because of the shade of their skin tone.

        In the 1960s the Tories defined an immigrant according to the colour of their skin… people from Canada, Australia, Ireland etc. were not defined as immigrants… people from British colonies in the Middle East, Caribbean, Africa, and Asia were defined as immigrants. It was a pure matter of racialism on who was defined as an immigrant and who was exempt… a definition that continues today. The leaders of all political parties have immigrant blood in them and a Royal family with immigrant blood in them… and while the republicans may sometimes have a dig at the Royal family being German – a dig from the times of King George I – ‘we’ rarely have a dig at Charles over his father’s origins. No, the political elite are exempt from the immigrant tag because their skin tone is white… but ‘we’ do not exempt those of a dark skin tone… no matter how many generations ‘they’ are born in this country, ‘they’ will never be simply British.

        • justsomeone

          Get real! They aren’t denied anything. The bulk of them don’t want to join the rest of society, a society they scorn. They embrace others who come from Pakistan and Muslim countries because they see these people as their countrymen – which is natural when there are so many of them here – coming from the same place and sharing the same culture. We’ve spent a fortune on them and we’re accused of racism.
          I remember Muslim immigrants born in France who attacked a group of French pupils, stole their phone and said “We … those stupid Frenchies”. They don’t regard themselves as French but as Algerian, Moroccan, Tunisians despite being born in France and they want to conquer France. The worst part is that this is natural. The fault lies with France for bringing them over in massive numbers.

          • Nymeria Meliae

            so you are just going to ignore the history of ‘coloured’ immigration – the signs in the windows that said ‘no blacks’, ‘no coloureds’ that forced migrants into poor run down areas and into low paid jobs regardless of qualifications? You are going to ignore the school catchment areas that prevent attending the better schools thus perpetuating poor education, low paid work, poor area and the ghettoisation of non-white migrants.

            You are just going to ignore the definition of immigrant by the Tory government of the 1960s that labelled all white immigrants as not being immigrants but labelled non-whites as being immigrants.

            You are just going to ignore how someone born in this country to parents born in this country who has never been to a foreign country in their life still gets labelled as being an immigrant. Is still called Asian or Algerian despite having never left Europe.

            You are just going to ignore that Tony Blair’s ten point action plan to defeat terrorism after 7/7 talked about all Muslims being part of the problem and all Muslims being immigrants despite that Islam has been in the UK as a recognised religion since the mid-nineteenth century and that the first institutions were built by white European converts to Islam – most of them British in every sense of the word.

            Are you then going to seriously say that these people have a choice… these people who are called names by the public from the day they are born, these people who are disadvantaged at every turn, these people who are condemned by the media, these people who can never be part of ‘we’ because ‘we’ uses ‘them’ to define what ‘we’ means.

          • justsomeone

            Been happening recently, has it?

            The Indians and Pakistanis I saw were never discriminated against.
            And you will notice that Hindus from India aren’t causing the kind of mischief that Muslim Pakistanis are. No “Hindu State” Jihadis, no Hindu rape-gangs, no Hindu extremist teachings in schools. No Hindus blowing people up in Britain. Their skin colour is no different so perhaps it’s not about how we treat the immigrants but about their culture and their attitude towards us.

  • Cj

    If you vote LibLabCon and don’t like what they have been doing, I suggest you look in the mirror if you want to see one of the people responsible.

    • Neil Saunders

      I suggest you consider the unrepresentative nature of the FPTP electoral system.

      • Cj

        Representative Or unrepresentative it is not an excuse for those who vote LibLabCon.

        • Neil Saunders

          Agreed. But when I look in the mirror I see someone who didn’t vote for LibLabCon. So do millions in the UK.

  • Kugelschreiber

    This is a great article that brought tears to my eyes. It is a very POSITIVE account of NATIONALISM.

    I suppose I am a moderate nationalist, but I dislike and despair of those NEGATIVE NATIONALISTS who express themselves by sneering and putting down other nations and their people. (when we should be RESPECTING those other nations )

    I suppose these NEGATIVE NATIONALSTS are just nasty pieces of work or morons and you find them everywhere, unfortunately.

    These pests contribute to PREVENTING the nationalist parties from becoming more successful.

  • justsomeone

    The article is too puritanical. The English are a mix of various ethnicity, which would never have mixed if this puritanical doctrine were followed. And for all the love towards other European nations as representative of ethnic identity, Nigel Farrage’s wife is German yet their offspring would be as English as anyone else and might write a poem the article’s author would explain could only be written by an English soul. Nigel’s ancestors were French.
    For that matter, there wasn’t a real problem with EU immigration, other than some economic problems with immigration from Europe’s poorest countries. The issue is one of cultural assimilation. The bulk of the Muslim immigrants have not assimilated, will not assimilate, are even hostile to our values, care little for our culture. And that is what we find revolting.

    • phaasch .

      Well put. Oh to go back to the gentle, steady drip of assimilation.

  • phaasch .

    At last, an intelligent take on the issue that dare not speak its name. I am inclined to believe that the EU’s unrestricted immigration policy is a quiet attempt to divest the citizens of member states of their sense of national identity, so rendering them more susceptible to change, or homogenization if you like, a rootless, rudderless, stateless mass of individuals being far easier to manipulate.
    As English, British, whatever, the identity of its people has always changed gradually, imperceptibly over generations, as others from overseas have come to settle here, be it from choice, chance, or to escape persecution. They have assimilated themselves into the fabric if this country. That is how it has been since William 1st.
    But this uncontrolled deluge is stripping our sense of being. Our soul. Of who we are.
    Human nature needs identity. And now human nature is starting to make itself heard.
    And to whomever thinks me a racist for voicing my feelings, so be it.

  • Mike Powell

    This is so true. Unfortunately politicians see the immigrants as voters to retain themselves in power so they will sacrifice the soul of the Nation for their own selfish goals by appeasing them.

  • satbachan dhanjal

    enock powel was right all the way

  • satbachan dhanjal


    • Ed  

      Did you take all your pills today?

  • satbachan dhanjal


  • Giles Ellis

    i Used to live in Italy, Resident with Italian Driving licence, Italian Identity Card, from the age of eight; go back to the late nineties, when I stopped working for a French company always resident in Italy, I could not get a Job unless I had a work permit, I could not get a work permit unless I had Job, fortunately I managed to get a letter of intent, Trials and Tribulations of the so called free movement of Individuals; The Law is subject to whims of those who Administer it. so much for European Union

  • reddog694uk .

    This country has expended millions of lives in the name of Freedom, defending our borders from invasion and keeping the hordes from our collective doorsteps. Now it is our policy to subvert the security of the British people by importing the invaders as efficiently and quickly as our technologies, infrastructure and political agendas can manage. This simple fact has made a mockery of the sacrifices that generations of Brits have made to keep our country safe. Our leaders should hang their heads in shame.

  • Bill

    Yes, Enoch Powell was right and no one took any notice of him. Now its all proving to be true.

  • Llamedos2

    Tom Stacey – This is an excellent piece of writing – it says all that we are and what we would like to say if we had the chance. I think the last time the sense of ‘us’ was around in England, was during the WW2. Since then successive governments have done their best to destroy our feelings of belonging – these days it is called ‘being racist’. Well I am old enough to remember things as you have said, even as a young child – in the later part of war-time. We must do what we can Tom to revive that feeling and be proud of it. You are in an ideal position to reach out to us with your writing – so keep doing what this article tells us – and we will join you.

  • joboost

    Correct – in principle.

    Still, however, missing the point of human mobility.
    What shall we do with those who come to us.
    The question should be: Do they want to be part of ‘us’, or live as ‘they’ among us.
    It is this latter part of the story which we have failed to recognize and work out.
    Mainly, we -or more: our politicians and political correctness-mongers- did not want to recognize it.
    To them, each newcomer was an “enrichment” in the “MULTI”Ideology that should be in everything:
    In language, custom, law, family, even sex – all to be there, in one home, in harmonious multiplicity.
    That is as good as having a joint Celtic and Rangers fan club house, or a Catholic ‘Chapel’.
    Let’s face it: At least, Celtic and Rangers fans have one common interest: Football.
    And Catholics and puritan-leaning Protestants have one Saviour, the man from Nazareth.
    But what do all the “diversified” masses bring?
    And I am speaking of ‘masses’, as one or a few just lose themselves in ‘us’.
    Not that they are lost – they can bring good new things with them – and be loved for it.
    But they live with us, in the midst of our language, our law, our customs to which they adapt
    – they do not have to take our faith, but may come to enjoy our church bells, for:

    These bells are part of us, and not to be taken away.
    They tell us time, and festive days, and mourning:

    They’re part of us, and this is our home.
    Thus, come to live WITH us – and not AGAINST.
    That we should have taught – and yet: We missed it.
    And we took part in wars against their homes
    – That made them hostile

    – not all of them, but those we gave no home to
    – whom we allowed to live in Istambul/Lahore on Thames.
    In real homes, there are no Ghettos within their walls,
    but our “multiplicity”, “diversity” created them in “political correctness”.
    These were the wounds we have inflicted on ourselves,
    and hard they’ll be to heal, our home to mend.

  • Svenski

    The story of Britain is one of invasive forces, and disparate religions at loggerheads. It is a story of greed, desperation, and violence. There is nothing happening now to suggest that will change.

    • Bonkim

      That is what gave the British ability to adapt and change and consequent stability for centuries compared with the forever warring Continentals.

      • Svenski

        You seem to have the Anglicans confused with a peaceful race.

        • Neil Saunders

          You seem to have confused the Empire-builders (who came from Scotland, Wales and Ireland as well as England) with the English.

          • Svenski

            History repeats itself.

          • Neil Saunders

            Does it? In what way? And, if so, how is that relevant to the present discussion?

    • Colonel Mustard

      Tripe. Compared to other nations it has been one of the most peaceful and politically stable on earth.

      • Svenski

        History, Major?

      • Bonkim

        I would second that Colonel! would add most tactful, adaptive to situations and ability to maintain the stiff upper lip to get results.

    • Neil Saunders

      You should read “The Population of Britain” by Eva M. Hubback, published just before the 1948 Nationality Act opened the floodgates. (It’s an easy book to find in secondhand bookshops, or online.)

      This will show you what the true story of immigration to Britain was over a period of centuries. Hint: it was nothing like the galloping erasure of our national culture, and replacement of our indigenous population, that has been occurring in recent decades (and especially after 1997).

      • Svenski

        Immigration and cultural change can’t really be a moral problem, as nature has no consciousness.

        • Neil Saunders

          And what the hell does that mean in plain English?

  • cmason

    Unfortunately’ those being groomed and radicalized’ in madrases by radical Imams, have no soul!

  • Ninadoescare

    This is a really important piece that reflects the way a lot of people feel in this country, unfortunately I have read the most unpleasant comments below which has been dragged down to a level of abuse and personal comments. As a nation we should take these comments on board and respect the opinions of all, I am English and proud of my heritage and culture. People that come to England from other countries are proud of their heritage and culture too, this just highlights that is a natural part of being human, we like to belong. With this pride comes ownership a feeling which is not wrong, when new people come into a group no matter how large or small there is always a struggle with territory, we are part of the animal kingdom and this is apparent in all species. I am concerned that the fact that we are an island with far too many people from all walks of life are diluting the cultural heritage of the British people, they feel threatened, so why oh why are people unpleasantly forcing the issue of integration?! The British people who are fighting back are feeling pushed out, told that they and their views are unimportant, everyone must be accepted and that has to be accepted whether they like it or not! Some of the British people are shouting back, frustrated that their families of generations who have fought, shed blood, worked beyond belief to build the Britain that we know and love. The Britain that is here today is a product of what the British people has created (with various influences from other countries), and the people of Britain have every right to feel protective of their roots. British people are generally welcoming and due to forced acceptance, this is turning sour. British people have backbone and that is why Britain has had the strength to have been built to being such a brilliant nation. The dilution of the strength of British people by introducing so many new people to the country and in turn diluting the strength of communities I feel is part of the grand plan of world leaders to remove the greatness of Britain and bring it to it’s knees, getting in through the back door. Our government is selling off land and homes to foreign investors, allowing millions of immigrants, we will own nothing, the British people are becoming powerless and defenceless, the government does nothing to protect anything that we love. I am devastated to say that the Britain that I have grown up in is nothing like the Britain I was born into in the seventies, we have been sold off / are being sold off piece by piece, no wonder there is deep anger and resentment rising, I am very worried where this is going for all involved, because the Britain I know and British spirit is not one for taking things lying down, I suggest the government starts protecting it’s own before the people take it’s own route.

    • Bonkim

      Sound analysis but the world is changing, modern technology has brought people and ideas even closer – go back to an era of rural Britain when travel was slow and news from far of lands and people took months. The price of international trade and prosperity post WW2 is what you are lamenting about.

      Britain is 75% dependent upon the outside world – and cannot shut itself out. Mobility of capital and people are part of the new economic liberalisation. It is natural that people are concerned about the demise of the old certainties but British lifestyles have changed beyond recognition – and not just because of people and cultures from other parts of the world – trying to create their own environments. Most communities object to building more houses in their midst and having new people move in destroying their surroundings and way of life.

      The world is much more interdependent than it was say 50 years back, populations are exploding and resources running out. Unless politicians start thinking about reducing world population and consumption – the situation will accelerate – all things in nature follow the life-cycle theory and we are probably at the end of ours.

  • Joe Bloggins

    The English are of mixed ancestry? Yes, and it was made up of white, northern European peoples who shared a similar language, culture, beliefs, etc, and then amalgamated into one people – the English. Oh, and please don’t quote Oppenheimer and his DNA studies at me – a paediatrician who took the results of other people’s studies and came to his own conclusions. It’s ironic that there are those who will wheel him out as some kind of proof that the English are made up of people living here since the Ice Age when you realise that his studies are now regarded as incorrect in many of their conclusions. We’re an Anglo-Saxon people – i.e. a people made up of several northern European sea tribes. No doubt some ‘Celt’ (always used rather inaccurately, seeing as it refers to a language rather than a people) has crept in here and there, but not enough to make us some nondescript ‘British’ people – a term I find obnoxious, and usually banded about by civics who believe in the nonsense of a one-size-fits-all identity. ‘Englalond’ (land of the Angle) was named after the English, not them after it, therefore people are not English just because they re born here – no more than I’d be Chinese or regarded as such if I had been born in China. The Chinese (to use just one example) are Chinese wherever they settle or are born in the world, and no-one seems to have a problem with it. Only the English are sneered at for wanting the same as others – a defined, recognisable ethnic/racial identity. What’s that I hear you sneering civics say? That we can’t regard ourselves in the same way because we’re made up of several ancient northern European peoples?? Yes, and not many people could tell the difference between Koreans and Chinese people, yet they are regarded as individually identifiable nations of people. Non English people are not English by being born here or by wishing to regard themselves as such – no more than I could regard myself as being a native American Indian by moving to, or being born in America. We are who were are and others are who they are. Nothing to do with racism (another worn out phrase) but everything to do with the common sense idea that we are a people in our own right. Civics can bleat about it all they like, but the ‘Englisc’ (English) were calling themselves ‘Angelcynn’ (English nation) many centuries before you decided it was okay to give their identity away to those of non English origin. I’m English. Don’t like it? Too bad, as I just don’t care. My patience is at an end regarding the anti-English brigade, along with the self-haters. We English are a tiny fraction of the total 8% of the world’s white population, and yet we have vile cretins who think we need dissipating even more by the use of mass immigration, etc. If anyone are racists then it is they – the very worst kind.

    • Bonkim

      You are losing confidence – the English are superior and absorb all – that is their strength. English is not skin colour or genetics it is a mind-set and don’t despair. English is the premier language of communication across the globe, English Law that for trade and commerce. You should celebrate that. Go back to the Empire days – the handful of native Brits did not build the Empire on their own and would not have succeeded if all around did not join in and wanted the enterprise to succeed. True English are confident that their culture lives on regardless of skin colour or religion/s.

      • Neil Saunders

        You’re over-confident, and the twaddle you contribute to this thread proves it.

        • Bonkim

          There is Twaddle and Twaddle. Try to use your brains a little and throw in a dash of humour. You will enjoy life more. Much of your posts on the subject is narrow-minded bigotry with little intellectual content.

          • Neil Saunders

            Why must you assume that an absence of agreement on certain points equates to an absence of humour in general? This is a non sequitur.

            Again, you have made genuine contributions which are not twaddle.

          • Bonkim

            We all have different perspectives and give weight to different aspects – that is what discussion is about – and accept/recognize others will see things differently.

    • Ricayboy

      Well said mate.

    • Neil Saunders

      This is the best comment on this thread.

  • Agreed, the ultimate expression of free association.

    The crucial feature of indirect democracy is the perception of representation,
    the collective trust in shared aims and expectations that allows the
    people to put their destiny in the hands of another, safe in the
    knowledge that even if ‘their’ man doesn’t get the job then the other
    guy will still be looking after their best interests.

    The manner in which this trust is built is the knowledge that you and
    ‘he’ have a history of cooperation, and that your respective families
    likewise have a shared social and cultural history of cooperation, all
    of which allows you to trust that when adversity strikes ‘he’ will act
    in a predictable and acceptable way.

    There are many varieties of trust networks including religion and
    ideology, but we neither live in an authoritarian theocracy or a
    communist dictatorship, and thus the most relevant network of trust in
    western europe is the sovereign nation state, as it can make the most binding claim to a common identity that gives birth to a trustful Demos.

  • Steve Gwynne

    I think part of the problem is that the British soul is multi-dimensional in that from a working-class perspective there is one dimension of the British soul, from the middle class there is another and from the upper class yet another again.

    Probably the class least affected by immigration or in other words, the slow but sure dilution or mutation of the British soul, is the upper class, who as we know dominate British politics and British vested interests and limit social mobility into their class more than any other socio-cultural institution. They are also the class that most benefits from the cheap labour coming from abroad which is largely reaped through the profits made from warehouse factories built on green-belt land or reaped in the form of profits made from cheap-build suburban housing estates, both of which destroy the green and beautiful countryside, i.e the green foundation of the British soul.

    So the immigration debate is really about how the rich upper classes profit from immigration and so promote and support an EU wide policy, whilst the rest of us are left to deal with the reality of influxes of cheap labour causing reduced wages, reduced standards of living, increasing living costs, more pollution and less countryside.

    • alframseyssexdungeon

      Yes, yes… and yes.

    • Oh God – all the fault of the toffs, blah and more blah!

      • Steve Gwynne

        Another boring troll with nothing constructive to say. No wonder you live in your make believe child reality of Batman. Lol.

        • I think the make believe element is the one referring to Class Warfare and down-trodden working people, lol.
          Thanks to years of pork barrel politics, and brought to an art form by Blair and Brown, most of the Labour Client State, the ‘hard working families’ of the UK, really DO believe they’re ‘wurf it’ and that it’s their ‘yooman rite’ to have all the widescreen TVs they need, the well paid jobs, (ha ha) and the free ‘elf serviss’.
          ‘Twas never the case – there was never enough money, and we’re still only halfway through eliminating the last Labour mega-overspend.
          Deal with it old sport, it’s called basic arithemetic.

          • Steve Gwynne
          • zoid

            ….becasue cpag and the equality trust aren’t quangos at all…

            …it’s impossible to take seriously any research carried out by a public funded charity, as they are always stuffed to the gills with compliant labour apparatchiki……having worked in a couple, i know.

            class war is the left’s equivalent of racism for the far right…..’toffs’, ‘the rich’, ‘the 1%’ provide a group for lefties to hate and they get away with being able to spew hate filled invective towards a part of the population without getting any criticism.

          • Steve Gwynne

            Typical narcissist trolls in that you have to deny everything other than your own self-obsessed twaddle. It is interesting watching how two narcissists construe all sorts of imaginary realities out of a statement of fact. Next you be telling everyone that trickle down will cure all the world’s problems.

          • zoid

            ‘narcissist trolls’….’deny’…self-obsessed twaddle’….all of which could be applied to you.

          • Steve Gwynne

            Except that I am referring to statistics professionally compiled and you are just referring to yourself !!!

          • OK – let’s play burst the bubble.
            Raising someone a penny above an arbitrary poverty line solves nothing, as Gordon proved by widening the gap between rich and poor via his tax credits and his transformation of charities into Government spending.
            Then there is the interesting theory of the welfare state – Labour again demonstrated this concept does not work, is openly abused, and is counter productive.
            Tough love, market forces, aspiration instead of dependency.
            It’s working.
            Despite the pseudo class warfare peddled by inaccurate and irrelevant references by the likes of yourself.

          • Steve Gwynne

            Well trolling seems to be your full-time occupation and dispensing of political fiction for your own narcissistic mind. If you can show any relevant references to your self-obsessive waffle then maybe you might convince someone other than yourself that you do have a reality outside your plastic bat cave. For example, what is working? Your use of the words Inaccurate and irrelevant simply reflects your own waffle based rant.

          • Good mix of ad hominem and straw man policy.
            What’s working – employment is at a high, and unemployment at a low.
            The deficit is (slowly) coming down.
            With luck and a Tory Government, we’ll see proper reform of the NHS, a balanced budget and some more decent Union Reform.
            THAT is what’s working.
            I understand why some people may feel they deserve more – the reality is that they don’t.
            Remember Liam ‘There’s No Money Left’ Byrne?
            He was technically wrong; thanks to the Great Labour Crash, not only was there no money left, there’s a sizeable current account deficit and a growing debt. You need to deal with it instead of dreaming foolishly about a money tree – you could always try the tooth fairy, I suppose.

          • Steve Gwynne

            Oh god the worst logical fallacy of them all, to accuse the other of using logical fallacies which have just been deployed by the accuser aka narcissistic projection.

            True about unemployment http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/10604117
            but this does not provide a worthwhile measure of the health of an economy as my previous evidence shows. Standards of living are down as costs of living have been driven up.

            Obviously you didn’t check my evidence which shows that debt is still increasing, even as we speak. Show me your evidence.

            Obviously in your bat cave reality, you believe people do not deserve equality. Your extreme hierarchical mentality really is what is causing the fragmentation of the British soul.

            Selfish narcissists like you are the problem. Go to the US where you obviously belong Batman and take your puerile attitude with you.

            A Tory majority government with UKIP yappying at your heels, no way. Tories have just got too elitist.

            I have been finding it amusing that you assume I am a leftie. Simple minds eh!

            Your fantasy about the Tories healing all the problems is about as dreamily foolish as you can get. It can all be dealt with by a good dose of equality and a lot less hypocrisy.

            Are you a banker by any chance?

          • Steve Gwynne

            Oh god the worst type of logical fallacy, to accuse the other for using them after having deployed them oneself. Boring!

            Unemployment is reducing but that is no measure of the health of an economy in terms of standards of living which are falling whilst costs of living are rising for the majority, but not the minority, of people in the UK. Similarly the ecological footprint of our economy is 2.5 times greater than what can be presently renewed.

            And you call this working. My god!

            No chance of a Tory majority. They’ve turned the NHS into a basket case. Also people know the corruption being perpetrated by the elites, which is why you couldn’t get a majority in the first place.

            The Tories and Labour have turned Britain into a sordid, reckless, resting place for rich foreign elites who don’t give a damn about the British soul.

            Obviously people do deserve more, but the rich elites (and you) are too selfish to acknowledge it.

            You seem to be well and truly caught up in left/right politics when this division has not existed for decades, at least in terms of mainstream politics, but then I guess you have been in your Batcave since god knows when!

            You are obviously a fool to believe that the Tories are better or worse than Labour, especially in terms of the debt problem which has been exacerbated by both parties since the late 70s. They are both a blight on the British soul and have no cares other than for themselves and their corporate allies. In the main, they are both a bunch of knee-jerking self-serving disingenuous unpatriotic imbeciles that seem hell-bent on driving everyone into the ground with them. And idiots like you seem to fall head over heels in love with one or the other when in truth or reality or whatever idiotic fallacy you want to deploy next, they are as bad as each other.

          • You have my sympathies – it must be truly difficult being unable to accept that market forces cannot be bucked, and that every Labour attempt to do so ends in disaster.
            I understand your personalised criticism based on the frustration that the world cannot be made to fit your model, and that the returns you feel you and yours deserve cannot be attained.
            The amusing piece, however, is that it matters not who gains No 10 in reality; even a Labour Government will be constrained by the markets, and forced to choose between Greek disaster, Franco / Spanish / Italianate recession, or the austerity now dictated by decades of overspending and the recent Great Labour Crash.
            As Saint Margaret elucidated so elegantly and accurately:

          • Steve Gwynne

            You seem obsessed in creating a false dichotomy between left and right and also seem obsessed with the notion that the invisible hand is orchestrating the social and economic lives of humans. You seem to have a particularly naive view of the world to think that there is no alternative. Of course there are alternatives but when the balance of power is in the hands of a few then it might appear that way.

            In reality all markets are fixed in one way or another and it is the elite that benefits. Bank bail-outs, housing bubbles, quantitative easing are all examples of that.

            Finally you seem to get the picture that the state rumbles on no matter who is in power and each government has to deal with the legacy left by all the previous governments.

            It is completely facile and dimwitted to continually focus on a select few incidents in our political past and then play the blame game. You seem more like some Tory groupie than an interdependently informed individual. In that respect you have my sympathies. You seem thoroughly deluded and resigned to a crass and puerile future.

          • No Steve, I am obsessed with the odd notion that you can only purchase what you can afford.
            We cannot afford the sacred cow called the NHS in its present form, which is not the form for which it was designed.
            We cannot afford a Labour Government again. Period.
            We cannot afford anyone who thinks borrowing is the answer – try your theories on your bank manager on the grounds you deserve a new Jaguar, or you believe you should do your grocery shopping in the Harrods Food Store, and that the extra spending will somehow fund your borrowing.
            As the Blessed Margaret so often, correctly, stated:
            The Facts of Life are Conservative
            Regrettably, no matter which government is extant from May, you will need to deal with reality. The truth is – you are NOT worth it, none of us are.

          • Steve Gwynne

            Well Tina I can’t say I disagree with what you have said there since my life is one of self-imposed austerity with no debts including the debt of mortgage. Obviously this is a very different reality to most people who do have debt in one form or another.

            In ecological terms we cannot afford a Labour, a Tory or a Liberal government again but people still vote for them. Call it brainwashed, afraid of being independent, a conformist, either way the majority will continue to vote for economic servitude and then pay for the consequences of that in terms of their physical health what with diet/nutrition related diseases, cancer, stress, depression.

            In this respect I find it a complete joke to criticise left or right – as you still seem obsessed with doing – when in truth the system is fucked and no government in the near future is even considering how to fix it. Therefore all we are left doing is waiting for HMS Britannica to run aground like all the other countries duped into neo-liberalism.

            As I say it is regrettable that you and probably many others have been convinced by the virtues of neo-liberalism and in the process seem to have acquired a huge deficit in self-worth. It seems that ‘their’ tactic to completely demoralise has worked on you at least.

          • Johnnydub

            One problem is the Tory Party is no longer conservative.

          • I disagree – it’s been hampered by the realpolitik of Coalition.

    • Bonkim

      What is ‘British’ as generally understood around the world is upper/educated class – the Plebs don’t set standards of behaviour, language, or codes of conduct. Doubt if Britain is known for its Saturday night raves or drug culture or drunks getting sick on the streets.

      That is true in all cultures. Not many would wish to copy the Hoy poloy. Sorry but class is a human condition and all are not made equal or contribute equally in any walk of life. Classless society failed even in the Soviet Block and China.

      • Steve Gwynne

        There certainly wasn’t a classless system in Russia or China and probably there never will be.

        Also, class diversity isn’t necessarily a bad thing if there is some semblance of equality between them. A British soul or identity will be more or less integrated, even in terms of its differences, depending on the sense of equality between those differences.

        The problem at present is that the British identity is so disparate and fragmented and in some ways corrupted, that a sense of equality is almost imperceivable. Take the mega-rich Russian oligarchies who are driving out the British from Inner London, all of which is being sanctioned by the mega-rich British wealthy elites. In other words, they don’t give a f**k.

        At present, this seems to becoming more and more the case, hence the existential crisis of the British identity.

        The perception of whether contributions are considered more or less equal is always down to perspective and not the black and white (right/wrong) way you seem to portray it. E.g when an economy is viewed from the perspective of inter-connectedness and the intrinsic reliance of one contribution on another, then all contributions can be seen as equally important.

        I guess from your perspective, you have a view of hierarchy and in particular a hierarchy of worth which you have overlaid upon the equally important inter-connectedness within all systems. In this respect, I agree, this projection is a self-created and essentially illusionary condition that has been imposed by the human condition alone.

        However again, I don’t share your black/white (right/wrong) analysis of the cultural inter-connectedness going on within national identities. High, medium and lower classes are always informing each other in varying ways and their sum total will be portrayed differently in different situations. E.g in the Army, the British were perceived as something different to how the British are perceived in Ibiza or Koi Samui and probably different again within International Development circles or Diplomatic circles.

        Everything is Relative.

        • Bonkim

          I have to go along with much of what you say and add that there are no absolutes. Extreme nationalism or religious/sectarianism thrives on narrow definitions of identity concentrating on superficial and transient differences ignoring the fact all societies/culture change -as stated previously, someone from say 1930s Leicestershire dropped into today’s Leicester would be dumbfounded by the lack of manners, morals, and fall in ethical and work standards even allowing for the new immigrants that have come in numbers.

          Historically, sense of identity was based on local kinship, language, religion, work-place, Church, class and club-membership, and affiliations to professional, sports, garden, or other groups, even which pubs you went for a drink. Things were fairly stable until recent decades – most of these affiliations or common themes have disappeared from British life as lifestyles have become diverse, fast, and highly individualistic,and costly. People can now disappear into their make-believe worlds created around their computers/tablets which require little human interaction. Life-time employment at a fixed works or office has disappeared, people today have multiple identities depending on lifestyles and distances/locations covered by these. So even without the new immigrants and other diverse cultural/economic in their midst people feel rudderless. Old certainties do not exist and hence the lament and hatred of alien invasion in these columns.

          • Steve Gwynne

            Nicely put. So if the British soul is to feel integrated then not only are adjustments required to assimilate post-modern or hyper-modern lifestyles and the globalisation of these lifestyles, but also mutations are required to engender a sense of equality between all the different components of the British soul.

            Typically all that the Tories, Labour and the rest of the political/corporate elites care about is more wealth in their pockets. So for them their only concern is more inequality which makes me wonder just how conscious they are in terms of the social and cultural impact of their lavish desire for money and power.

          • Bonkim

            The British mindset has always been dominated by the profit motive – puritanical work ethics, and mercantilism. The British mindset was always mercenary – ‘nation of shop keepers’ – the colonial enterprise gave many in Britain a taste of the profits to be made and a taste of adventure and risk-taking. Britain succeeded and got better at the game compared with their continental competitors resulting in the Empire.

            The present doubts/loss of confidence and unease is at the loss of position in the world – whereas the continentals were mostly satisfied by their post-war affluence with US/Britain keeping the peace around the world at great expense.

            Britain essentially looked outwards looking inwards was what the continentals did best as they did not have the same exposure. The French made a hash of their Empire and had to withdraw in disgrace from most of their colonies – French Indo-China, Algeria, Tunisia, etc.

            Getting into Europe and having to forfeit the old certainties within the Empire and Commonwealth was a bad thing for British morale – and the situation still festering – unsure whether we are Europeans or have a wider role in the world. Some of the indicators were already showing – Iran, Suez, Kenya and the Mau Mau, Aden, Rhodesia, etc, where Britain made a hash which lowered confidence even more.

            Immigration and Enoch Powell – Powell was a brilliant mind and in reality old school and a realist I would not call him a racist in the way many ill-informed are commenting. In fact he had great understanding of the different cultures that existed within the Empire and respected most.

            He did however foresee the pickle society will face with the massive changes taking place and that Britain had attracted huge numbers from its previous Empire. Whilst Adam Smith’s Invisible Hand involves free movement both of capital and people for perfect competition to take place, humans are not perfect and do not really want competition when it comes to the crunch.

            Social organisation is paramount for success – conversely a society that does not have common values and aims usually fails. Post Empire confidence and feeling of superiority (I must say justifiable to an extent) in the ruling classes (regardless of political ideology) and also rising living standards promoted liberalism, sense of equality and tolerance – Post 2000 and rude awakening that the EU was on track to political union and subsequent economic downturn – people and politicians have to invent reasons for their loss of power and the growing economic and social uncertainty. Foreigners of all colours are easy to blame – On a global scale – the earth is grossly overpopulated, and resources running out (ignore the temporary fall in gas and oil price because of reduced consumption and new cheaper sources particularly in the US) – the situation today is no different from the uncertain times of the 1929 depression and rise of militarism only that the scale of economic activity and consumption is keeping some parts of the world consuming and other parts supplying the demand at low cost – a situation unlikely to last long as the low-cost producing countries get rich and consume more.

            I have no answers but following the life-cycle theory – all good things come to an end, human societies have periods of ascendancy and decline, failed and failing societies should be allowed to die off – not kept on an aid-lifeline.

            Britain has a dependency index of 75% and relies on external trade to a much greater extent than say the US, Russia, China, India, or other underdeveloped/poor countries of Asia and Africa. It would be necessary to cut our suit within the cloth available – some measure of traditional Protestant work ethic and prudence that built an Empire will not go amiss. Most would however blame the government for cutting benefits and immigrants instead.

          • Steve Gwynne

            Yes I’m not sure how many Brits would identify with “Rule, Britannia!” any more or even the national anthem.

            I agree many Brits are still dealing with post-colonialism and the multicultural dimensional to our now multi-ethnic national identity.

            Even the likes of fair play and other quintessential British traits like politeness, love of the countryside, reservedness, the class system and aloofness do not seem to apply anymore and have been replaced, as you mentioned, with an identity complete with a consumerist type branding with strong sporting affiliations.

          • Bonkim

            Young people are not surrounded by adults that have the values you list. Role models have changed.

          • Bonkim

            Colonial history – not many know or understand what the Empire meant, just the glory bit not the hard work that went in building and maintaining and the British values that played their part in the enterprise – going by the standards of British foreign policy and the Iraq/Libya/Afghanistan fiasco one wonders if any one in the foreign office or the political classes know/understand Britain’s colonial history either..

          • Steve Gwynne

            Makes me think how Americanized our identity is these days.

          • Bonkim

            Worldwide old stereotypes of cultures and lifestyles are changing fast – an international hybrid culture is evolving fast – travel around – hotels, shopping malls, and public places are all now international with minor touches of the local cultures.

            The English language too – is now internationalised – jargon few will understand in Britain.

            Nothing new in this – medieval England adopted many Middle-Eastern touches – veils, flowing robes, etc, see some of the medieval paintings of noble families.

            People follow/copy what they see as more successful or elegant than what they are used to – Jeans is the universal garb all over Asia, and women also shedding their local dress codes and copying Hollywood and Bollywood fashions. Have you seen many wearing overcoats, suits, ties, and hats in Britain or the US in recent years – some still do in Europe but even there disappearing – universal smart casual has replaced all that even in winter. M&S has stopped selling many items that were in vogue over the century. Clothes, food habits, religion, social behaviour – distinguishing cultural totems are all getting homogenized.

            Talking of ethnic and cultural nationalism based on past lifestyles will become increasingly difficult.

          • Steve Gwynne

            Globalisation > globalised culture

    • Neil Saunders

      This is an essentially American, money-stratified analysis of class. I think that by “upper class” you mean the super-rich, who are not necessarily the same group at all.

      Stil, there’s no denying that the super-rich, whether individuals or corporations, are the principal beneficiaries of mass immigration, while the indigenous white working class (or their successors) are the principal losers.

  • Richard Eldritch

    It’s deeply depressing, A cowardly press pretending that they’re “Charlie” despite not having the stones to print the mohamad cartoons in case they’re murdered or worse offend some religious nut cases. The fact is all these craven politicians and press would have hounded the magazine out of existence before it reached issue two.
    The press, journos, and politicians then have the cheek to turn the debate into one about “The far right” and it’s non existent threat to muslims.
    I’ve never seen a greater gulf between what the press and the politicians promote and how the British people feel. It’s frightening how they’ve turned from representing and reporting to dictating agendas.
    I hate what this country has become; Cowards and lairs all.

    • Lot of truth in what you say – good post!

    • Colonel Mustard

      Not much consolation but you are not alone.

  • tomasz

    Current immigration is direct effect of British rich class rule. First they benefit from conquering other economies, then through (of course) independent parties telling you its the immigrants to blame. Cuts in NHS are of course immigrants fault – despite more contributions via taxes. Immigrants are good excuse for greed rich class. How is it possible, more taxes are being paid and prices still rising?

  • mattghg

    “The largely working-class communities among which many immigrants were settling were broken-hearted at the theft of their collective identity in the places where they had grown up and at being told to be ashamed of their resentment.”


  • cromwell

    Why are the our leaders allowing mass immigration into the UK and Europe? Heres a clue, Peter Sutherland non-executive chairman of Goldman Sachs said in the the British house of lords in 2012, “The EU should “do its best to undermine” the “homogeneity” of its member states” “however difficult it may be to explain this to the citizens of those states”. “shift from states selecting migrants to migrants selecting states” http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-18519395

  • Douglaswinwon

    You shouldn’t get murdered for being “disingenuous”. No violence
    followed the cartoon/lampoon of General de Gaulle. The
    reputation of the British wasn’t enhanced when callous groups had
    street parties and danced upon hearing about the death of Lady Thatcher, no
    violence or police action followed this tasteless demonstration.

    If an Imam or priest has the right to stand and preach about his
    beliefs; without retaliation or inviting discrimination; then an
    agnostic or atheist has exactly the same right. Some people actually
    refuse to believe in a talking snake, an individual living in a fish or a
    God that could choose such a flawed individual as Noah to re populate
    the world. In short the right to disagree and the right to free speech
    is as fundamental and as sacred to some people as faith and religion are
    to others. It makes sense to discuss a subject with intelligence and
    dignity whilst its equally obvious that its self-defeating to throw a
    tantrum and lash out.

    • Smug_b

      Well said. Everyone goes on about protecting people’s freedom of religion, but they always seem to neglect the notion of freedom FROM religion. If people have religious beliefs, fine, but they can keep them to themselves; other people, who don’t share those beliefs, are free to believe what they want, too.

    • Bonkim

      You are free to speak-agnostic if you want – no one is stopping you. Religion – all religions are superstitions and bunk.

  • Grumpier Old Woman

    Hits the nail squarely on the head. Our sense of identity as a nation has been completely undermined by other cultures who have come and in many cases arrogantly established their own cultures and religions to sit above our own. We are a beleaguered people inside what was once our own country.

    • Bonkim

      Doubt if your grand-daddy will feel comfortable with the prevailing language, lifestyle, greed, and hedonistic culture you appear to be worried about. Have you travelled around the globe and seen the ghettos that Brits established there? Britain is not belegured and its future is in the hands of people that do not despair, are energetic, and able to adapt and change – the basic strength that made Britain great in the past.

  • Lynn Grace Corbin-Lohmanns

    If you keep pouring water into soup it ceases to be soup.

    • Smug_b

      Unless it’s homeopathic soup. Sorry, I just couldn’t resist that one.

      • zoid

        or weightwatchers soup…

  • tomasz

    current immigration is the effect of the colonialism and later economic expansion that is new form of old thing. Exploit and kick out. Then surprise. What this bad terrorist want from us?

    • Penny

      tomasz – there have been many empires in the past. You don’t see Turks fretting about the Ottoman empire which collapsed not long before ours. You don’t hear of the countries it dominated sending jihadists to avenge Turkey’s past actions.

      Colonialism and/or war may be used to provoke young people into radicalism but if you listen to Arabic speeches from the ME, you will learn that our history and our foreign policy isn’t the rationale they give for jihadism. It is the purity of Islam, the wil of Allah that it be spread across the earth and the glories of a caliphate.

      • Bonkim

        The Turks lost following WW1 and lost their Empire. Dark-ages Islam appears to be taking over and Kemal Ataturk’s vision fading. Post WW2 all humans are seen to be equal and human rights forced upon – so equality of opportunity prevails. Europe/the world economy expanded and following Adam Smith’s invisible hand humanity concentrated on material prosperity which accelerated movement of capital and human resources across the globe. You have to accept the consequences or retract the material progress of the past decades..

    • Neil Saunders

      Write that in English, please.

  • AF63

    Firstly I see my self as a human being, secondly I happen to be white, born in Scotland with Italian/Scottish parentage.
    I’m not a religious human but my parents forced me into being a catholic, I hold no grudge and do not hide behind anything and am appauled that people hide behind something that is their belief system in a way that this is all their is!!!.
    I am a good person kind, have compassion and faith!
    But I feel I don’t need something as a religion to divide me from another person because of what I believe in.
    Using a line that Jesus christ had supposedly quoted TREAT THY NEIGHBOUR AS I WOULD TREAT THYSELF.
    Where does religion come into this? and scripts are written by men who are voted in to a position by other humans and then call themselves a disciple of the church but we have been misconceived by our governments who lead people as a whole and because of this deep brain washing process which has been living for thousands of years
    And at one time the church was the law, how messed up is this.
    But we still live it today and look what it has done and is still doing to society through killing each because of colour and man made religious beliefs.
    Believe what you feel you need to, we are all one.
    It’s the people in charge of our world, or people in charge of their clan, group village town through their own using a gods name to say their way is the only way.
    All this is is a selfish belief fired on people who are intimidated in to believing this is the only way.
    Come into this world, walk your path, be kind and show kindness, don’t show hate or jealousy no matter how bad your life is or gets, we are all learning good or bad.
    Educate where allowed and learn through people’s ignorance towards you very self.
    Show compassion, have faith and always be positive.

    • Bonkim

      Sound logic but the jungle is full of animals and you have to sometimes keep the animals at bay for self-protection..

  • Terry

    50 years from now,
    England will be a Muslim country. Unless our fearless leaders step-up
    to the plate now, somehow I don’t think that’s going to happen, So
    all you young ones had better start leaning Arabic.

  • david

    Well said!

  • polistra24

    EXCELLENT article. “At its own pace” is the key point. Us-ness will accommodate newcomers slowly…. but ONLY if the newcomers understand that they are newcomers and adapt their own ways FIRST.

    A major part of the modern problem is our refusal to recognize any sort of innate differences, which means we never require the newcomers to merge slowly. We encourage them to crash into the building.

  • olliebear1516

    It is time the Left’s vilification of Enoch Powell is challenged, and indeed, ended. He was right – and they were profoundly wrong.

  • helen dickinson

    Correct me if this is false—— go back to the middle late fiftys the tory pary was in power.
    MR MACMILLAN WAS PRIME MINISTER.,at this time gt Britain was very short of labour. now a meeting of all the cabinet, it was agreed, round the the table.
    something had to be done YES.
    , the the transport minister, MR MARPLES— AGREED— on the good folk of the
    west indies, should be employed on the buses, the tube, the trains.
    porters nurses docters lab tec s ect.

    • The_greyhound

      Got to love the way potty folk always capitalise everything.

  • perdix

    “Without this identity, man is without root.” Says it all really.

    • 350 single

      ..and without roots cannot grow leaves…

  • Lee Morton

    You reap what you sow

  • Carter Lee

    Britain, France and Germany and a host of other former European countries are in the process of ‘cultural’ self-immolation.

    Two thousand years of civilization being swept away and they have no one to blame but themselves. In a century or less all these countries will all be indistinguishable from one another.

    Being a Dane will be little different from being a Spaniard or a Belgian. Europe will be one homogenous boring cultureless muddle whose only distinguishing feature is sameness and economic angst.



  • Jennifer Foster

    I grew up hearing cries of Brits out from the old Empire & I understood their feelings but now I feel I have lost my ancestral homeland & as my roots here go back hundreds of years can’t even claim to belong in the “We’re all mongrels here” camp

  • evad666

    The current situation has been engineered by the illiberal left based on state sanctioned apartheid.


    The current situation helps neither the original inhabitants or those newly arrived merely fueling tensions the illiberal left desires to exploit.

  • BoiledCabbage


    The problem people are already here. And they are not from Eastern Europe.

  • Dogsnob

    Nailed it.

  • WarriorPrincess111111

    Long before the floods of immigrants came to the UK, I would travel up to North Wales. I loved the country, the countryside and the people – I wanted to spend as much time there as I could. So why did I not move there? Oh, I would have done except………..I knew that if I, and everyone else moved to the region it would no longer be the place that I loved. It’s character, it’s people and the whole lifestyle would change – I did not want that, so I still continue to visit because North Wales is as it is, as it was and hopefully as it always will be.

  • JP

    Enoch was right, the only thing to discuss is how the European establishment will fully acquiesce to the demands of the terrorists. Islamification and Islam inspired violence are a reality that aren’t going away. The terrorists already know how it works: repression, counter-insurgency, stalemate, with a buy off at the end a-la Northern Ireland.

  • Whangdoodle

    Our natural, evolved human instinct is to seek “like”, both for company & safety. We build communities, countries & nations and cultures that are inextricably rooted in our kith and kin. That’s only natural and it is the reason that so-defined nations thrive and survive.

    When change is unchallenged and laws are introduced that refuse to acknowledge expression of our natural instincts, resentment naturally and rightly builds up. Instincts are not eliminated but they may be suppressed. Repressed instincts simply gather force and one thing is sure – sooner or later, they will break loose and express themselves. The longer that takes, the more violent will be their appearance.

    We’ve had the best part of 50 or 60 odd years of being told that we must be “tolerant”, we must understand and accept “differences”, whatever threat they pose or changes are made to our traditional ways. As a country, we are not, never have been, particularly tolerant. On the contrary, what we have done is “forbear”. Forbearance is not tolerance: it is just putting up with something – until the time arrives when it will be sorted out. That time is coming. When Enoch Powell referred to “rivers of blood”, it was a Shakespearean allusion. How right he was.

    • Bonkim

      Birds of a feather flock together.

  • John Andrews

    Your country should strike a medal in your honour.

  • Morgoth

    Very impressive article!

    I would say, however, that our ethnicity is precisely what is under attack, it isn’t that the destruction of our identity is a natural or accidental outcome of immigration, but the whole point of the immigration. For example:

    *The massive increase in Hate Laws and Racism offences.

    *The fact that we have ethnic quotas in employment and ”diversity” is also encouraged in schools, diversity meaning less White, of course.

    *The massive propoganda promoting Multiculturalism, not just by Lefties in the Public sector but by Big Business.

    *The creation of street movements to attack resistance by the Natives

    * The promotion of Leftist lies such as ”we are a Nation of immigrants

    * The complete sidelining of Anti immigration sentiment by the Natives

    * The cover up of the mot disgusting crimes committed against White Girls.

    I could go on and on, but the point is that the Multicultural project is specifically designed to break the back of ethnic Europe, why? is another matter.

    But all in all a fine article.

    • usura

      Excellent article. I have always thought that Edmund Burke and Tom Paine reflected two differing responses to the French Revolution. Burke lamented the fall of deep rooted organic traditions and hierarchies of thought and Paine celebrated the radical up-rooting and reorganising of society along the lines of logic and materialism. The world opinion has largely gone with Paine and today we have a deracinated people completely severed from it’s grounding in tradition. A tragic moment in history of the West but celebrated as the founding of a new humanity. Nations with no natal connection, patriotism with no patriarchal heritage. Absurd cardboard cut-outs.

    • Johnnydub

      I’m reporting this from earlier in the comments, but it answers your question – Why?

      The point is the elites have decided that the World Wars were due to Nationalism, and thus the nation state (and by extension National Identity) has to be abolished.

      See when the mask slips: Peter Sutherland, a former Goldman Sachs banker and now an UN apparatchik:

      “EU should ‘undermine national homogeneity’ says UN migration chief”


      • Morgoth

        Yes the War did have an influence in that regard but it is not the primary reason, the elites are not doing it for our own good. For example Peter Sutherland is arguing from the perspective of Global Finance, abolishing borders and bringing in millions of new consumers is necessary, it is ”Globalism”.

        Another strand would be the Utopian Left and their Brotherhood of Man fantasy, another is the emergence of a Western Elite who are totally detached from their Nation, another would be a small but very powerful ethnic group who have a grudge against Europeans.

        All of these forces converge and are all complimenting each other.

  • joe bloggs

    took me so long to log in forgot wot the fuk i was going to say

  • Steve Gwynne
  • Very good article. Even so, I think it is unfair to blame Enoch Powell for raising the issue of immigration in unapologetic terms nearly 50 years ago. Such shifting of the blame reminds me of the way Nick Griffin drew attention to the Muslim paedophile gangs years before the whole sorry story came out. Some people then blamed Nick Griffin for having been the one to blow the whistle. Allegedly, after he had become involved with the story it became untouchable by ‘good’ people. Personally I think Enoch Powell and Nick Griffin are the scapegoats that salve other people’s bad consciences. “We would have done something if only…”. Yeah, right.

    • 350 single

      I could not agree more…

    • Neil Saunders

      Yep, shoot the messenger.

  • John Moore.

    1968 was the year that the Plowden Report was enacted and the education system changed to “child centred learning” — which meant that the children in primary schools particularly were made to sit at little tables for four which meant that two had their backs to the teacher. It was the start of pupils believing each other rather than adults. I know because I took a nine year old out of his primary school and put him into a private prep school with comparatively old fashioned teaching. He is still thanking me to this day.

  • Ambientereal

    Here it happens the same as by cooking. When you cook meat for instance, your food consists mainly of meat seasoned with some species in different proportions according to the taste of the cook. But surely it will never consist of a huge amount of species and only a little meat. Replace meat with native British and species with foreigners and you will see what an unpalatable dish is being cooked in our beloved country. By the way, the building of ethnic ghettoes is due to the fact that people doubtless need a homeland with “national soul”.

    • Bonkim

      a homeland and national soul which have to be imagined as the locations these people left have transformed and changed beyond their comprehension. Time forgets those that live in the past.

  • Lt. Wolfe

    Each of us must communicate the basics of responsibility, liberty, and prosperity. This helps: http://bit.ly/theLanterns

  • Roger Hudson

    Read the transcript not the spun quotes.
    Powell was very badly treated by Heath. I once (66?67?) heard them on the same platform and you could just see how Heath was wary of Powell’s power with an audience.
    A version with a tube tunnel ‘foaming with much blood’ might resonate with a modern audience. And modern Wolverhampton? need we say more.

    • William_Brown

      Quite. It is shameful how E.P. has been marginalised and misrepresented.

  • William_Brown

    I think that the French showed a bit of National Soul the other day. I don’t, however, think that it would be allowed to take place in the UK without the Police ‘kettling’ marchers in case of riot – instigated by their own undercover protagonists, the UAF and/or HNH.

  • 350 single

    I do not agree that Powell’s speech at Birmingham in 1968 ‘queered the pitch’ – he was reacting to the severity of the future problems he foresaw if the then ‘Immigration Policies’ were continued – To have represented his and his constituents concerns in any other way would have been wholly dishonest – a shock speech was exactly what was needed at the time – It was the then Prime Minister Heaths response that caused the problem – he used the predictable reaction from the Left to sideline his main political rival and remove him from the cabinet, in so doing gave the impression – that still rules today – that anyone that approaches the subject of Immigration is somehow unsavoury of mind, a ‘Racist’, to be despised, reviled and shunned by ‘decent’ folk…
    We were, in 1968, still largely in charge of our own destiny – changes in policy and further frank discussions on the subject would have been entirely possible – the gathering ‘Left/Liberal’ influences, then as now, did not of course want public opinion to be represented in their policy – they had their ‘Socialist’ dogma to guide them, they had their blinkers on – ‘Political Correctness’ was gradually ushered in and the pink and fluffy ‘Nirvana’ of multi-culturalism forced upon the population whether it liked it or not in the ‘Socialist’ tradition – the Soul of this Nation ? I don’t believe there is one any more….

  • oopiop

    Excellent piece! We need more like it.

  • Dave Morgan

    And what about the ‘us’ that
    consider ourselves European? Sure, we all like to belong in our
    neighbourhood… but we all move home now and again and join a new
    neighbourhood. ‘We’ are all going to visit Mars soon and we are going as the
    human race. Britains ‘us’ is the collective sum of the multicultural community
    that make it up today…not tied irrevocably to the sodding Norman conquest of
    the past. We Brits love curry and gave the world the Balti culture through
    embracing our multi cultural culinary strengths. A societies culture and
    identity are continually changing as the sum total of the beliefs, views,
    values and thoughts of everyone in it right now…if you wish to live in a pox
    ridden feudal past join a historical re-enactment society.