Matthew Parris

‘Rape is rape’ serves no one well, least of all rape victims

The reason there are so many acquittals is that juries reach ‘perverse’ verdicts when they are uneasy about the law itself

6 September 2014

9:00 AM

6 September 2014

9:00 AM

When Mary Jane Mowat remarked recently that rape conviction statistics would not improve ‘until women stop getting so drunk,’ the retired Crown Court judge knew there would be a row. It followed.

The judge, knowing that only 60 per cent of rape charges that reach court end in conviction, was making a narrow point. There are big evidential difficulties in pitting the claimed recollection of someone who says she was too drunk to know what she was doing against the claimed recollection of someone who plainly wasn’t.

But the row spread wider, as it keeps doing, into the moral status of taking advantage of an inebriated woman. Rape need not involve forcing yourself on somebody, but can include other circumstances where there is no true consent: the alleged victim could have been asleep, unconscious or under a misapprehension as to the accused’s identity.

For a conviction for rape to succeed in a case where extreme drunkenness is involved, it is not necessary to prove that the alleged victim was insensible — i.e. comatose; only that she (or he) was so drunk that her (or his) failure physically or verbally to resist could not amount to true consent.

The relationship between alcohol and sexual consent is a vast and tangled question. Though the criminal offence has to be confined within the boundaries of a clear category, sexual consent can be resistant to sharp definition. The word ‘consent’, I’d submit, need not in its ordinary usage describe an all-or-nothing state of mind, wholly present or entirely absent. The law, however, treats it thus. That is the root of the problem.


A key effect of alcohol, and one of the reasons people take the drug and offer it, is that it relaxes us, lowers our guard and reduces inhibitions. Since our species first began its relationship with alcohol, people have been using it to lower the inhibitions of those they wish to make love to. You may not approve of this but I suggest it is so common, so anciently established and so widely tolerated that it would be pointless to try to outlaw or even stigmatise such behaviour. You might as well inveigh against candlelight. A drink can soften up the object of your intended advances. Two or three can melt resistance. Most of us have been on one end or the other, or both, of such a tactic. Women do it to men as well as men to women. We even do it to ourselves, seeking Dutch courage.

We will each of us have our own sense of the moral limits of such behaviour, and standards will differ; but few would suggest this should usually be a matter for the police. It is quite common for at least one of a coupling pair to be rather drunk, without anyone raising the objection that there is no consent.

Many men and women will feel that alcohol has on the whole been a friend to us in our exploration of sex; and most of us would agree that using alcohol as an aid to getting somebody into bed can in moderation be acceptable. But almost all of us, I think, would agree that if the object of another’s desires is ‘too drunk to know what’s happening’ (or stop what’s happening) then she (or he) has suffered some kind of assault. We would think that an outrage. It’s shocking and disgraceful for someone to suffer this. We probably do think it should amount to a criminal offence.

We may (many of us) think there has been some contributory folly by a victim who voluntarily drinks to excess, and we may think that relevant to the severity of the crime or sentence, but we certainly don’t think it legitimises the assault or negates the crime.

The problem — which was not the problem the judge was referring to, but is the problem people really want to discuss — is that we aren’t sure this should always be called rape, but that if it must be then we think the law should acknowledge that some rapes are ‘worse’ than others.

And this, quite apart from the problems of evidence, is one of the reasons juries keep acquitting when campaigners against rape think they should have convicted. There are at least three malign consequences. First, it assists men who have done something wrong to escape justice. Men whose behaviour has been abominable walk from court like some kind of latter-day Dreyfus.

Secondly, the woman who has made the complaint and probably been seriously wronged is made to feel like a criminal herself, whom the jury disbelieved.

Thirdly, subterranean public disapproval of the female complainant and muttering in the popular press about women who ‘ask for it’ insults and demeans all rape victims, including those who have suffered horrible physical attacks. The very word ‘rape’ has been weakened; and complainants as a class have been brought into disrepute. I wish feminists who lobby for the widest definition of rape would understand how ill they serve those who have known rape in its strictest definition.

It’s one of the functions of the jury system to reach ‘perverse’ verdicts when juries are uneasy about the law itself. If this becomes a pattern, that’s a danger signal, and the right response is not to berate juries, but to ask how the law may be getting out of kilter with ordinary conceptions of justice.

We need to rescue rape in all its horror from dilution by loose definition, rebellious juries and failed prosecutions. How this might be done is beyond my competence to hazard in one short essay, but somehow we should accept that there are degrees of consent and non-consent, that there can be contributory folly on a victim’s part, and that if we can acknowledge greater and lesser offences we stand a better chance of securing conviction in the lesser offences, while paying victims of the greater offence the huge respect they are due. As a slogan, ‘Rape is rape’ has proved the rapist’s friend.

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Show comments
  • Jackthesmilingblack

    “Since our species first began its relationship with alcohol, people have been using it to lower the inhibitions of those they wish to make love to.”
    Here’s to alcoholic beverages; the cause of and the answer to all of mankind’s problems.

  • Rik

    A brave sound well reasoned article i await with interest to see how much fury it inspires

  • tjamesjones

    I agree with the point that rape isn’t rape, but Matthew has slipped in something pretty sleazy – I don’t agree with “Since our species first began its relationship with alcohol, people have been using it to lower the inhibitions of those they wish to make love to.”

    That’s not cool. Drinking to relax yourself is fine, knock yourself out, but trying to get someone drunk so you can have sex with them? Sorry? That isn’t at all OK.

    • Rik

      I think there is a big difference between sharing a bottle of wine [or two} to reduce mutual inhibitions and trying to pour a pint of vodka down someones neck be it a man or a woman doing the pouring.
      The real issue is consent and too often drink or other substances blur the memory the following morning,i fear in our youth all too many of us men and women alike have awoken after a heavy night and been embarrassed by our choice of partner. That we have made a drunken mistake is not reason to cry foul.

    • Gwangi

      Are women 5 years old? No, they are grown ups. So stop infantilising them by saying ‘someone trying to get them drunk’. If women make the ADULT CHOICE to drink free drinks (which men don’t get, after all), then wake up with regret – well, it’s called a lesson in life innit?

      • Kaine

        If you’ve never been bought a drink as a man then, well, you’re doing it wrong.

      • Liz

        “Wake up and regret”. – rape myth spotted.

    • post_x_it

      Also, I can’t help thinking that the role of alcohol (specifically) is grossly overstated whenever this debate comes round. Some of the other substances people routinely consume on big nights out have far stronger effects on libido (up) and inhibitions (down). They are also more likely to induce feelings of regret the next day.

  • Kitty MLB

    Yes indeed alcohol relaxes people..but even in rather old films
    during more gentle times we see Terry Thomas type chaps ‘taking
    advantage’, of ladies after a glass of wine or two..although we assume not in the way you mention.
    The issue is now people abuse alcohol, are relaxed far too much..
    and girls become drunk much quicker then men and not all men
    are gentlemen..and will commit crimes for which there are no
    excuses.

    • Damaris Tighe

      The absence of dissent when comotose should not be taken as assent. Therefore dissent should be taken as the default position.

    • Gwangi

      Taking advantage? You mean the way women take advantage of men by making them pay for free nights out?
      Males do what males do. It is their RIGHT to try and seduce a woman in any way they want.
      If women make mistakes and have bad experiences – then GOOD. It’s a lesson in life.
      Do you SERIOUSLY think men do not regret sleeping with some people?

      • Kaine

        Again, even when not trying, I’ve had women offer to buy me drinks, and I’m nothing special. This weird, late nineties Manhatten version of courtship you have in your head might be your problem.

        • Gwangi

          You’re just weird. Maybe they thought you were special needs so buy you drinks? Y’know, like those bowls of water for dogs you see sometimes in pubs…

          • Kaine

            Says the guy who needed his mum’s assurance he wasn’t a rapist. Does she say you’re her special little guy too?

          • Gwangi

            What the F are you ranting about now, loonie? Go see your therapist and take a handful of Xanax, why don’t you? It’s weirdos like you who mean that some abusers walk free – because you are too extreme and accuse any man disagreeing with you of being a raypist. Twit!

      • getlost

        Rapist spotted. I know I’ve pointed you out a few times, but since you are a persistent commenter of pro rape comments, it seems fair.

        • Gwangi

          Nutter spotted. Sad lonely twisted hag who should be sterilised now to protect her unborn children from her bile and venom and abuse.

  • stag

    In the case you mention, where someone is so blind drunk they either don’t know what’s happening or are unable to take any measures to stop it, consent is still a black and white issue. Consent can be non-verbal. It could simply be active co-operation. Or perhaps a certain kind of smile. Establishing what consent looks like is difficult. But when someone is half-comatose on the floor, how can they possibly consent to sex, in any meaningful way? To suggest it might not be rape is, I think, irrational.

    To my mind, the theoretical question is easy. Rape is the forcing of sexual relations without consent. And in that sense, right across the board, rape is indeed rape. It could be exacerbated by violence. It is morally worse when someone is screaming “No!!”. But it is still the same thing. The difficulties arise around establishing what consent looks like, and (of course) finding witnesses.

    • Damaris Tighe

      The absence of dissent when comotose should not be taken as consent. Therefore dissent should be taken as the default position.

      • stag

        That’s right.

    • Kaine

      I can’t comprehend why someone would want to do anything with a completely unresponsive partner. That isn’t s ex, it’s masturbation.

      • stag

        Doesn’t matter whether or not you can comprehend it. If someone does it, it is wrong and it is rape.

        • Kaine

          Yeah, my point is that such actions aren’t in fact about sex as we understand it as a union of partners, but in fact an entirely narcissistic act of power domination.

      • Liz

        It’s necrophilia.

  • you_kid

    The interesting part of this article isn’t the article, it’s the sub header: Juries feeling uneasy about the law. Now what does that imply – Juries being incapable of reaching a verdict and therefore aquitting (who has not seen this happen) or the law allowing incapable juries of reaching a verdict and therefore leading to aquittal. Is this really the best option for ‘justice’?

    How you take the article itself is of course entirely dependent on your socio-cultural background.

    • Mike

      I think the law is skewed against men with lack of anonymity and most juries use common sense in that too many women regret their drunken escapade the previous night and try and put the blame on men. Some men also regret their dalliances in the cold light of day but accept that if drunk, you only have yourself to blame.

      • getlost

        Rapist spotted…

        • Damaris Tighe

          I’ve noticed your last few unpleasant posts. As a woman & pioneer feminist who likes men, I wish you’d live up to your name. You & wimmin like you have done feminism nothing but harm.

          Get lost, go away, return to the stone from under which you crawled very recently, & deal with your neuroses without blighting these pages.

          • getlost

            I am going to keep calling out rapists. Sorry you don’t like that. Shame you are busy trying to tone police and shut down people who call out rapists while comments from rapists don’t bother you.

            Never mind though, your attempt at shutting me down and ignoring the actual rapists won’t work 🙂

          • Mr B J Mann

            “I am going to keep calling out rapists. Sorry you don’t like that.”

            What’s not to like?!

            Even though you’ve never even met them, never mind been penetrated by them.

            Keep on proving that when a woman calls out a rapist she is a fantasist who is making it up and falsely accusing them.

            “Keep it up”, as they say.

            And “Enjoy :)”!

        • morbidfascination

          You are Harriet Harman and I claim my £5.

          I assumed your comment was tongue-in-cheek – albeit a bit tasteless – until I noticed your reply below. Your abuse of the term “rapist” is a massive insult to, and ill-serves, victims of true rape. Just as Mr. Parris points out in his last sentence.

      • Gwangi

        And the very few women who are proven to have made false raype accusations get 6 months on probation max!
        Plus a jury in a raype trial is not allowed to be told that a woman accusing a man of raype has falsely done that before and been convicted. Yes, really! Incredible.

  • Jackthesmilingblack

    Women that fail to grasp the quid pro quo component of a hetrosexual relationship, tend to use the term “rape” when they wake up with a hangover and a bad case of buyer’s remorse.

    • Livia

      Said the guy pulling data out of his arse.

      • Jackthesmilingblack

        Hell, luv, if this rubs your fur the wrong way, wait till you see my next contribution.

    • getlost

      Rapist spotted..

      • Jackthesmilingblack

        That’s a Brit for you. Always jumping to a negative conclusion on zero evidence.

        • Damaris Tighe

          No that wimmin for you (I speak as a woman).

          • Jackthesmilingblack

            White woman, presumably.

          • Damaris Tighe

            what’s skin colour got to do with it?

          • Jackthesmilingblack

            Because Caucasian women are a right royal pain in the donkey.

          • Liz

            Because hating white women is the acceptable face of misogyny. Because they’re white men’s softer target proxies.

          • Liz

            No you don’t.

    • Kaine

      What quid pro quo? If you want to have guaranteed sex because you spent a couple of hundred quid on someone get a prostitute. No one is required to sleep with you because you bought them dinner.

      • Archibald Heatherington

        Quid pro quo is a Latin expression that roughly translates as “this for that”; essentially ” You scratch my back, I’ll scratch yours “. The slang ‘quid’ has nothing to do with it.

        • Kaine

          Actually we get the slang quid from quid pro quo. I’m not asking what the expression means, I’m asking what he thinks he’s offering that means he gets sex in return.

      • Jackthesmilingblack

        “you spent a couple of hundred quid on someone get a prostitute” Yet another area where you`re getting ripped-off, Britisher pals.

        But seriously, this “cut to the chase” approach is worth exploring, as it does offer a far better risk-reward ratio. And if the brute is drained , surely he does present less of a threat.

  • Mike

    As usual its perverse and hypocritical that the left like Harman create a firstorm over aquittal rates on dubious white rape allegations but ignore Rotherham and elsewhere. Perhaps if these PC fascists actually took all those Jihadist / rapist to court years ago, the success rates in court would have soared !

    • Liz

      Men did a pretty good job of ignoring it too. And of perpetrating it.

      • Mike

        Agreed, I was making a political statement not a sexist one as I hold both sexes amongst the PC fascists equally responsible.

  • LordJustin

    Matthew Parris has the mindset typical of a politician turned journalist. He assumes that a high rate of acquittals in rape cases means that the forces of law and order are too “soft”, and “criminals” are “getting away with it”, when the contrary is true.

    Our criminal laws and punishments concerning rape are some of the strictest, and most strictly enforced, in the world. And (in terms of numbers rather than percentages) our conviction rate is also one of the highest. But there is no point in ruining a good headline or political rant with the truth.

    The reason why there is still such a high percentage of acquittals in rape cases is that prosecutors, who are generally over-sensitive to criticism from politicians and the media, prosecute cases resting solely on consent – ie without independent corroboration – that should never have got near a court room. After all, it’s better to have a punt and blame the jury if it goes wrong rather than risk public opprobrium by exercising the correct judgment at the outset.

    The real problem with our present rape law is that conviction or acquittal usually depends heavily on the innocence and moral probity of the victim. Uniquely, the actions and motives of the offender are secondary considerations. It is the state of mind of the victim that determines if the perpetrator was committing a crime, or just accepting an invitation freely given.

    The present law gives an accused rapist every reason to plead not guilty. His name is immediately published in the media, often before he is charged. He is likely to be condemned to a lengthy prison sentence if convicted, even on a first offence. And, when he is released, his entry on the sex offenders register follows him to his dying day.

    So, his life is potentially ruined from the moment he is accused – and the only chance of retrieving his reputation is to have a punt on proving consent. So, both sides are gambling on a spin of the wheel of justice. Is it therefore any surprise that there are so many not guilty pleas, so many trials and so many acquittals?

    If you want more rapists to be convicted, and in particular more early guilty pleas, why not abolish the present definition of rape (which stands or falls on actual or reasonably inferred consent)? If you replace the definition of rape with a law of aggravated assault and battery, with unwanted sexual assault or penetration being only elements of aggravation, there would be less difficulty proving enough elements of the offence to send the offender to prison, and more likelihood of his pleading guilty.

    But, in order to achieve this, we would need to separate the practical business of taking criminals off the streets from our deep-rooted need for sexual politics and the resultant censorious morality. I’m not sure we’re ready for that just yet.

    • Damaris Tighe

      Some interesting points here. Your solution would be more acceptable if there were serious sentences for aggravated assault & battery – equivalent to those for rape.

      • LordJustin

        That’s what I would have in mind. The only change would be to remove the stand or fall status of the consent defence.

      • rtj1211

        If the sentences are equivalent, why do you need a different category?

    • morbidfascination

      But how are you going to prove it was “unwanted”? That comes back to consent.

  • liz

    So essentially female citizens can never ever exercise their legal right to get drunk in case male citizens decide to sexually assault them and they want to prosecute. Is what you’re saying.

    • tolpuddle1

      If a woman wants to get drunk, she would be a fool not to take juice-drinking friends with her as protectors.

      How can drunken slappers / ladettes expect the protection of the law if they won’t even protect themselves ? – they’re not five year-olds.

      And how can a jury possibly support the rape claim of a woman who was clearly too drunk to know or remember whether she gave consent or not ?

      • getlost

        Rapist spotted.

        • Damaris Tighe

          Neurotic nutter spotted.

        • tolpuddle1

          Don’t be an idiot. And don’t be libellous.

          • Damaris Tighe

            I’m incredulous that such an appalling comment has received 3 upvotes so far.

          • Gwangi

            one from Liz; one from Kaine; and one for their psychiatrist probably…

          • getlost

            I’m incredulous that anyone attempts to tone police people pointing out obvious rapists and isn’t bothered by comments from rapists.

            Oh, and I’m going to keep doing it 🙂

          • getlost

            Nice attempt at tone policing and trying to shut me down.

            I’m going to keep pointing out rapists anyway. Nice try though 🙂

          • morbidfascination

            You have serious problems. No, really.

          • tolpuddle1

            How very brave of you ! Do you want a medal as “Witchfinder General 2014” ?
            I’m trying to cut the incidence of rape – whereas you’re hoping that rapes will become more frequent so that you can dance around saying how dreadful it all is, while trying to convince yourself you’re a good person.
            BTW – don’t waste your time; you’re not.

          • Liz

            Witches don’t exist. Rapists do.

          • tolpuddle1

            I’ve seen self-described witches on TV – so much for their non-existence !

            Wicca is a growing religion, based partly on traditional witchcraft, which was simply the pre-Christian European pagan religion which co-existed with Christianity for many centuries and still does, especially in the remoter parts (e.g. the West Country).

          • Liz

            Those aren’t the kind that get hunted. The ones that got hunted and murdered in their millions were women who had no magical powers and were being systematically exterminated for being a threat to male religious authority. These men had much in common with rapists.

          • tolpuddle1

            “Millions” ? – no; the Witch Craze claimed 40,000 to 50,000 lives (some men included).

            It was caused by popular superstition and terror, not by the religious authorities. Those who were burnt posed no threat whatever to religious authority.

            Where the religious authorities were strongest – Spain – there were almost no witch-burnings; the male Dominicans who ran the Spanish Inquisition were immune to superstitious terrors.

          • Mr B J Mann

            Actually, wasn’t it down to hysterical wimmin falsely accusing their sisters?!?!?!?

            These wimmin had much in common with false rape accusation “victims”!!!!

            And as for the witchhunts against men who dare to threaten pseudo-religious PC feminist orthodoxy, dogma and authority!!!!

          • Mr B J Mann

            Witches must exist, hundreds of thousands of them have confessed to being witches.

            Under torture.

            Including the Medieval equivalent of water-boarding.

            So it must be true!!!!!

          • JamesChambers123

            “tone policing” -> Feminazi spotted.

          • Liz

            “Feminazi” -> misogynist spotted.

          • JChambers123

            Ooohh don’t! You’ll make me cry!

          • Jackthesmilingblack

            Providing you don’t libel someone with the means to retaliate, Spectator will not take action. Preferring to keep the looney around for laughs.

      • Tom M

        Quite. The analogy to me is parking your Ferrari in Tower Hamlets with the keys left in the ignition. Stolen? Who would have thought it? Shouldn’t happen but who would you blame?

        • Damaris Tighe

          You blame the thieves whilst castigating yourself for being so stupid. Otherwise you’d have to say that the Rotherham victims were to blame for engaging in risky behaviour, rather than the r*pists.

          • anyfool

            Not quite the Rotherham victims were by and large children, children especially the ones in care, have never had guidance in their lives.
            These children are doubly unfortunate because they live in an area where the children`s services are controlled by Labour Party run authorities.
            The people these children take a lot of their guidance from, are morally bankrupt slaves to the current party line on garnering votes, no matter the cost to others.

      • pointlesswasteoftime

        “slappers”… well, that renders your comment meaningless.

      • Liz

        Protect themselves from psycho toddler men who can’t take accountability for their own actions I take it.

    • Gwangi

      You have to take the consequences of your behaviour., If that means getting blind drunk and then you get attacked, mugged, whatever – well then YES, OU ARE TO BLAME for creating a context where crime is more likely to happen. That is the opinion of most women too, I believe, who are – as I am sure you know, far less likely to convict men accused f such crimes by some drunken sleeparound.

      • Kaine

        No, the person that attacked you is to blame.

        Most rapes are committed by someone known to the victim. Statistically a woman is less likely to get raped walking home after a night out on her own than if she accepts a lift from a male acquaintance.

        By your logic, women should all go live in female-only communes.

        • Lina R

          You’re right that the person who attacks is to blame. In the world we live in, however, there are people who will take advantage of anyone vulnerable – whether it be for sex or for money. If women want to get drunk, then it’s not unwise to make sure you know how you’re getting home. Rapists are opportunistic after all and drunk women are easy prey.

          • Gwangi

            Indeed, yet feminists and girl power have encouraged young women to get drunk, sleep around, walk home alone AS A RIGHT. They have created the context where bad stuff happens.

          • Kaine

            Walking home alone and not getting attacked is a right in a civilised society. Also, as I’ve pointed out, the woman who does this is statistically less likely to be raped than the woman who takes a ride home from a male acquaintance.

          • Jackthesmilingblack

            Close run thing, surely?

          • Mr B J Mann

            “Walking home alone and not getting attacked is a right in a civilised society. Also, as I’ve pointed out…..”
            If you live in a civilised city that’s been subject to an earthquake and all the wild animals have escaped: would you insist on your “civilised right” of “walking home alone and not getting attacked” and eaten?!?!?

          • Kaine

            Depends. Is my alternative getting driven home by a suspiciously hungry looking lion?

          • Mr B J Mann

            Depends. Are you twelve?

          • Mr B J Mann

            And we’ve already “discussed” your assertion that:

            “the woman who does this is statistically less likely to be raped than the woman who takes a ride home from a male acquaintance.”

          • Kaine

            Sorry, but my mum told me not to give my age out to strange men on the internet, particularly those that have dubious views on the issue of sexual consent.

          • Mr B J Mann

            So you are!

          • Jackthesmilingblack

            True, but no excuse for drag into the bushes rape.

          • Kaine

            How do you make sure you get home?

            I think there’s a business idea here for a taxi service with only female drivers, but Gwangi et al would probably claim this as evidence of the conspiracy against them.

          • Gwangi

            And it’s time for Kaine’s medication…
            There ALREADY ARE cab firms with female-only drivers, you twerp! It is not I who believe in craving victimhood, branding all men as abusers and making excuses for my stupid behaviour with conspiracy theories.
            But hey. why don’t women GROW UP and make sure they have a way home when they go out. The problem is the feminist industry encourages women to be irresponsible – to get blind drunk and walk anywhere and do anything. But it’s not the menopausal manhating professional feminists who get attacked then, is it?

        • Gwangi

          No, you have to grow up and take responsibility for putting yourself in contexts where crimes are more likely to happen.

          Same if I wander round sound London council estate with gold jewellery flashing cash – I would definitely be mugged. Getting into that situation would be my fault.

          I have got into bad situations when drunk in the past, MY fault, that. But how lovely it is to always blame your stupidity on nasty men – they’re all WAYPISTS y;know anyway! GROW UP will yer!

          Not my logic at all that hates men and wants women to despise them and live in manhating gynecentric communes. I think you’ll find that feminutsy’s wet dream actually.

          • Kaine

            Mugged you say? Well Mr Gwangi you have a long history of giving to the less fortunate, are you sure you didn’t consent?

          • Gwangi

            Dumb argument as you know. I did not say I had been mugged in reality but just giving a hypothetical example – called an analogy, and a good one too – so yet again you promote your mad fantasies onto me. I have never been mugged BECAUSE I take precautions! I do not flash cash or wander round vibrant and diverse neighbourhoods; I am also 6’2 and walk fast looking down and never stop walking when going home late at night in dodgy cities. That means muggers fear me! They don’t DARE attack someone who looks so sorted and handy.
            Look up COMMON SENSE and PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY.
            Then, ask your teacher what they mean and come back to us.

          • pointlesswasteoftime

            A woman has no choice but to walk around with a vagina. Leave your money at home or in a bank.

          • Mr B J Mann

            Few people have the choice to walk around without cash or cards, perhaps even a mobile for business, but they don’t have to flash it around like a sl!twalker!

          • pointlesswasteoftime

            Merry Christmas to you too. So all people with a vagina are a “sl!twalker”. Tell that to the Virgin Mary.

          • Mr B J Mann

            Trouble reading after all that sherry?

            Or just thinking!

          • pointlesswasteoftime

            I have trouble thinking like you. Your mind seems to have scarcely evolved since what there was of it in the first place emerged from the primordial slime.You’re basically a nasty and provocative creep to whom I should have known better than to reply in the first place.

            Your reply to me arrived in my in-box on Xmas Day. It was the first one. Set me up nicely for the day. Hence the Xmas references. Have a little trouble thinking yourself, do you? And no, that’s a rhetorical question. I don’t want an answer because you’re clearly a bit thick.

          • Mr B J Mann

            Is that what “liberals” like to refer to as “projection”?!

            Let me try again using your own words, rearranged:

            “A man has no choice but to walk around with money.”

            “Leave your vagina at home or in a bank.”

            Yes, it is possible, just don’t go out.

            Just like you argue men should somehow be able to have a life while leaving anything they possess that might be stolen, robbed, mugged or harmed in any way locked away at home or in a bank.

            PS I didn’t reply to your inbox.

            If you don’t want to be emailed, take control of your inbox instead of inviting in things you might, shock, horror, disagree with, or that, even bigger shock horror, you might find upsetting.

            I didn’t get your abusive, offensive, un-evolved, primordial slime, nasty, provocative, creepy, un-thinking, clearly a lot thick, ad-hominem assault in mine.

            Happy New Year.

          • pointlesswasteoftime

            I hope 2015 is good to you too.

            My original reply was to Gwangi, who said: “Same if I wander round sound London council estate with gold jewellery flashing cash – I would definitely be mugged. Getting into that situation would be my fault.”

            I was pointing out that he could leave his money and valuables at home if he chose to go to that area, but a woman could not do the same with her vagina. You could argue she should stay away from such an area. But what if she lives there? Works there (carer/nurse/social worker/teacher)? What if she is visiting a sick relative? Are you seriously suggesting that there should be “no-go” areas for women because of the threat of rape? Where would that end?

            I know you didn’t reply to my inbox, Disqus notified me – it was not the first thing I was expecting to see on Christmas Day. I may have gone over the top in replying to you , but I really don’t see how you can seriously be making the argument you make in switching the words around. Or do you really think women should be locked up at home? Are you arguing that women should be controlled in their social activities and the way they dress?

            Let’s stick ’em all in a burqa. Is that an answer?

          • Mr B J Mann

            “I was pointing out that he could leave his money and valuables at home if he chose to go to that area, but a woman could not do the same with her vagina. You could argue she should stay away from such an area. But what if she lives there? Works there (carer/nurse/social worker/teacher)? What if she is visiting a sick relative? Are you seriously suggesting that there should be “no-go” areas for women because of the threat of rape? Where would that end?”

            Are you trying to prove that all women are emoting hysterics and there is no point in trying to have a rational, logical debate with them?

            I have repeatedly pointed out few men can go out without money, car keys, mobiles, etc, but they don’t need to flash them about in areas where it would be unwise.

            And I have also repeatedly drawn the parallel that whilst women can’t avoid going out and about with their vaginas, even in dodgy areas, they don’t need to flash them about, as in a “s!litwalk”, where it would put them at increased risk.

            Are you being deliberately obtuse and I need to draw any further parallels in crayon for you?

            Or are you really a misogynist male trying to undermine any lingering residual belief in female intelligence!

          • pointlesswasteoftime

            Oh dear. You are an un-reconstructed obtuse idiot. what a woman wears does not make her responsible for being raped. That is a lazy, piss poor excuse used by misogynists to justify their own violence to women. Do you think rape only happens to women who are, what you no doubt would term “provocatively dressed”? It happens to all women, from all walks of life. Simply because they are women. Grow up for heaven’s sake.

          • Mr B J Mann

            Yes, of course it doesn’t dear.

            Just as muggings don’t only happen to people flashing their cash.

            And you don’t have to wear a copy of Lady Ga Ga’s meat dress into the lion’s den to get eaten.

            Feel free to carry on living in your PC Princess fantasy world.

            Attend as many Slutwalks as you insist it’s your right to.

            And dress and act as provocatively as you insist its your right to, wherever you insist it’s your right to.

            But when you provoke a real un-reconstructed misogynist, never mind a real rapist, please don’t go crying to daddy about how the nasty man hurt you.

            Let’s just hope you grow up before it happens.

            Because there’s one or two men who won’t try to help you when you tell them to grow up, never mind call them thick idiot.

            In the meantime, ask some of your PC right-on “liberal” metrosexual male mates if you can borrow a mirror:

            And try looking at yourself in it!

          • pointlesswasteoftime

            When I look in the mirror, (somewhat less often these days) the person approaching 60 who stares back sees a world that has changed, and a person who has changed with it. When I look around me, I see stilted, calcified misogynists who still live in the past, where men have an ascendency and secretly think women should be put in their place, do what they are told and clean behind the fridge. You, my darling, have shown where your sympathies lie. We have nothing more to say to each other.

          • Mr B J Mann

            You seem to be saying that you weren’t always this bitter and twisted, and could once have a sensible discussion with members of the opposite sex who weren’t “liberal” feminists.

            Apologies for rattling your cage, distracting you from your mirror, and getting you to parrot your PC platitudes.

            I’ve changed. Squawk. I’ve learned a new phrase to parrot. Squawk. The man has said something I don’t understand. Squawk. It sound similar to what he said before. Squawk. I can’t be sure. Squawk. As I’m only a PC Parrot. Squawk. It could be something stilted calcified misogynistic living in the past. Squawk. Where men have an ascendency and secretly think women should be put in their place. Squawk. Do what they are told and clean behind the fridge. Squawk. You. Squawk. My darling. Squawk. Have shown where your sympathies lie. Squawk. But I’ll parrot something different back this time. Squawk. Honest. Screech.

          • pointlesswasteoftime

            Fuck off. Prick. Got it now?

          • Mr B J Mann

            Still afraid to look in the mirror dear?

            I might be embarrassing myself in front of people like yourself, who insist that anyone who has a slightly different viewpoint from them, regardless of how fully and clearly and carefully and logically and reasonably they present it, are:

            “a loser… Truly pathetic, verging on the insane… I have trouble thinking like you. Your mind seems to have scarcely evolved since what there was of it in the first place emerged from the primordial slime. You’re basically a nasty and provocative creep… Have a little trouble thinking yourself, do you? …rhetorical question. I don’t want an answer because you’re clearly a bit thick… You are an un-reconstructed obtuse idiot… misogynists… justify their own violence to women… stilted, calcified misogynists who still live in the past, where men have an ascendency and secretly think women should be put in their place, do what they are told and clean behind the fridge… You’re embarrassing yourself…”

            But others will have spotted that your “contribution” to the “discussion” amounts to:

            “well, that renders your comment meaningless”

            “Leave your money at home or in a bank.”

            “Hmm… are we seeing men spiked with Viagra as a date rape drug? Who knew?”

            “what a woman wears does not make her responsible for being raped. That is a lazy, piss poor excuse”

            “Grow up for heaven’s sake”

            “Let’s stick ’em all in a burqa. Is that an answer?”

            And come to the appropriate conclusion.

            At least “getlost” is “consistent” and probably has the excuse of youthful inexperience and “modern” indoctrination.

          • getlost

            Rapist spotted.

          • Jackthesmilingblack

            The copy-and-paste kid.

        • Mr B J Mann

          How many men are to blame for domestic violence in lesbian households?!!?

          Having said that, some unbiased, independent researchers without an axe to grind believe that there are more male victims of rape then female (due to what goes on in the male-only communes called men’s prisons!).

          Oh, and the “studies” on rape from those wimmins studies professors who get such inflated figures to beat up the male sex with use “research” that collates “evidence” such as wimmin claiming they’ve felt “forced” to have sex with their partner when they “didn’t want to” because they “were afraid” that if they didn’t their partners would stray, or even leave them.

          No wonder “Most rapes are committed by someone known to the victim”.

          There’s a reason they call it “hysteria”.

          • Kaine

            Citation needed for your conspiracy theories over research into domestic violence and sexual abuse.

            Institutionalised abuse within the prison system is horrendous. What’s the relevance to this discussion?

          • Mr B J Mann

            Citation needed for your “conspiracy theory” claim.

            If you’re such an expert why aren’t you telling us the truth instead of spouting propaganda?!

            As I said:

            “There’s a reason they call it ‘hysteria’.”!

          • Kaine

            You said the research is deliberately skewed. That’s an allegation of conspiracy, and up to you to prove.

            They call it hysteria because our ancestors weren’t great at biology. We still call people phlegmatic, doesn’t mean they’re snotty.

          • Mr B J Mann

            You asserted:

            “You said the research is deliberately skewed. That’s an allegation of conspiracy, and up to you to prove.”

            If you claim that I “said the research is deliberately skewed”:

            “That’s an allegation of conspiracy, and up to *YOU* to prove”.

            .

            You also asserted:

            “Most rapes are committed by someone known to the victim. Statistically a woman is less likely to get raped walking home after a night out on her own than if she accepts a lift from a male acquaintance.”

            And:

            “Citation needed for your conspiracy theories over research into domestic violence and sexual abuse.”

            Which you still haven’t justified with proper, scientific, independent proof.

            Social “science” polls by man-hating feminists, regardless of their high-falutin “degrees” or even “professorships” don’t count.

            Neither do reports by or for feminist ministers.

            Nor self-serving studies by organisations looking for an easy way to score brownie points with right-on vocal minority lobby groups while improving their ability to hit targets without putting in any effort.

            But if you want to dismiss that as “conspiracy theories”, feel free to remain blinkered to the truth.

            But, to quote you again:

            “That’s an allegation of conspiracy, and up to *YOU* to prove”.

          • Kaine

            No true Scotsman argument. Any evidence that is cited to contradict your claim will be judged as “feminist” and dismissed, regardless of the source.

            And you’ve proven my point, you allege in your post a combined effort by lobby groups, ministers and social scientists to put out data which is flawed. That is, by definition, a conspiracy, and if you believe it is so you are a conspiracy theorist.

            Now conspiracy theories are sometimes right, but they need evidence, and you have produced none. That which is asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.

          • Mr B J Mann

            Scotsman argument?!?! Is that wacist?!?!?!

            And I haven’t proved your point, I didn’t allege any kind of combined effort, never mind any conspiring.

            You can assert anything you like, and you do, it doesn’t make it true!

            Clearly you believe that if you tell a really, really big lie people will believe you!

          • Mr B J Mann

            By the way, do you know who the main perpetrators of sexual assaults in wimmin’s prisons, and juvenile correctional facilities are?

            Wimmin inmates in the former and wimmin guards in the latter!

            And you haven’t told me who the majority of perpetrators of domestic assaults in lesbian relationships are!

            Or were you waiting for a citation to independent research on that too?!?!?!

          • Kaine

            I’m sorry you get defensive when asked to justify your nonsense.

            “Wimmin” isn’t a word, so your question can’t be answered.

            Domestic abuse in same sex couples is irrelevant to the question discussed, and a poor attempt at derailing. Sorry babe, you need to do better than that.

          • Mr B J Mann

            I’m sorry you get defensive when asked to debate logically.

            You asserted:

            “Most rapes are committed by someone known to the victim. Statistically a woman is less likely to get raped walking home after a night out on her own than if she accepts a lift from a male acquaintance.”

            To quote you:

            “Citation needed for your conspiracy theories over research into domestic violence and sexual abuse.”

            And:

            “I’m sorry you get defensive when asked to justify your nonsense……

            …..a poor attempt at derailing. Sorry babe, you need to do better than that.”
            .

            100% of domestic violence in lesbian households is committed by women.

            100% of prisoner on prisoner and female guard on prisoner sexual assault in women’s prisons is committed by women.

            100% of sexual assault and statutory rape on vulnerable and underage institutionalised boys by females with a duty of care towards them is committed by women.

            30% to 50% of domestic violence victims in heterosexual relationships are men.

            And some studies put men as the majority victims of rape (albeit mainly victims of other males).

            Your being brainwashed by feminist dogma, ideology and propaganda doesn’t alter the facts.

            Neither does your closed mind to, nor your ignorance of, them.

            Happy, now, dear?

    • Tom M

      Yes they can but reading the article it would appear that considerable attention is paid during a rape trial as to how drunk or not the lady was and this is used as a supporting factor for the perceived level of consent.
      If she can claim temporary mental failure of the normal limits due to alcohol then that defence should also be available to the man.

      • cartimandua

        Surely the rule is that she cannot consent and therefore consent was not given.

        • Tom M

          Good morning Carti. haven’t seen you for a while.
          Your logic is impeccable, consent is consent.

          I’m only making the point that if the law recognises that she cannot make an informed coherant decision because of her alcoholic state then perhaps the law would like to extend the same lack of coherance to the bloke. After all he might well be engaging on something induced by alcohol that he otherwise wouldn’t do too.
          I’m not seeking to absolve rape only making a legal equality point.

    • morbidfascination

      I think that the original comments from the judge were that women were so drunk they didn’t really know what had happened. Hence their evidence was unreliable and undermined the case (let us not forget the “beyond reasonable doubt” test). This is not just a technical point about their ability to withstand cross examination – they may indeed be mistaken about what occurred.

  • liz

    Rape is rape is rape. Only one thing has to be present for something to be rape and that is penetration by a penis of a vagina, anus or mouth without consent.

    All the other stuff about knives and gbh is additional crimes.

    • ” Only one thing has to be present for something to be rape and that is penetration by a penis”

      How convenient that your feminist inspired definition of rape precludes the possibility that women can be perpetrators.

      Rape is more appropriately defined in gender neutral terms as ‘the unlawful compelling of a person through physical force or duress to have sexual intercourse’, which allows for the possibility that men can be coerced against their will to perform sex acts, and that women can be the coercive party.

      If you are coerced into sexual intercourse of any kind – you are a victim of rape, whatever the sex or gender of the respective parties.

      Unfortunately, in the UK and the USA, the legal definition of rape still doesn’t allow for this possibility, so that a woman can not be charged with rape, merely sexual assault, unless she penetrates her victim with an object.

      The law is biased, and needs to be changed in order to provide justice to those whose victimhood is currently not fully recognised, and to fully punish those who are guilty.

      Perhaps you think it’s OK that perpetrators are allowed to get away with a lesser charge and punishment, based solely on their gender, and that some victims are less equal than others.

      When Men Are Raped

      A new study reveals that men are often the victims of sexual assault, and women are often the perpetrators.

      http://www.slate.com/articles/double_x/doublex/2014/04/male_rape_in_america_a_new_study_reveals_that_men_are_sexually_assaulted.html

      • pointlesswasteoftime

        Hmm… are we seeing men spiked with Viagra as a date rape drug? Who knew?

      • cartimandua

        Men get raped too you know. Not long ago a married hetero man was walking in a country lane in a nice village and several men jumped out of a car and raped him at knife point.
        But I guess he was lying and he “wanted it” yes?

        • Gwangi

          Ah yes but not be women eh because a woman cannot be convicted of raype.
          I dare say you are campaigning hard to change that law – for the sake of equality for women.
          Also, anonymity or lack of it should apply to all equally.
          Now, if you wanted JUSTICE and GENDER EQUALITY you’d want that. Of course, you’re a feminist, so an utter secksist hypocrite.
          Women proven to have falsely accused me of rape to get a life prison sentence seems fair to me.

          • cartimandua

            They can and they have been but it takes tying man down and that doesn’t happen often.

          • Liz

            Women can force men to penetrate them, it’s called sexual assault, not rape.

      • Liz

        It’s not my feminist inspired definition. It’s the legal definition. Are you saying that the British legal system is feminist?

  • Sean Grainger

    Mr P I have occasionally wondered whether I really have had a sheltered life and/or whether I am a repressed straitlaceder and your sixth par had me yelling at the Spectator. I have never bought a — in my case female — friend or more likely new acquaintance a drink in the calculating expectation that it would increase the odds of her getting her knickers off later. And I find the idea monstrous — what would the right phrase be? ‘Go on have another pet, you’ll relax?’ I was once leaning out of my Belsize Park flat on a balmy night when a nice dark-haired young lady walked by having had an audible row with boyfriend just up the road and I said ‘Would you like a glass of wine?’ She came in not knowing me from Adam of course we had a nice chat I propositioned her she said no and tant pis. Is that what you meant? And in today’s habits of the idiotic mass consumption of rounds of shots surely it’s been overtaken by events. My obviously limited experience of this lot is that if you got lucky on Friday night and met someone you got on with drinks were bought in turn — or is that desperately middle class? — and sex might or might not follow.

    But I agree with your general theme and below is wot I sent the not very impressive judge.

    To Mary Jane Mowat. While I was very glad to see a judge given a half page in The Times I thought your piece was a bit logic light which is a bit of a worry in a judge. I was also concerned that there was no reference to other countries in Europe or to America for comparative data. Also a concern is that you didn’t produce any data for the increase in “date rapes”, indeed you said: “it is my impression”. I won’t bore you with the Shorter Oxford English definition of burgeoning which I checked this morning but suffice it to say it would have been better to say increased or grown.

    You also adduced no data to attach this to the Labour Government’s relaxation of the licensing laws. People bang on about this but the fact is it’s near impossible to get a drink in central London after midnight other than in a club. I have not experienced the much reported lawlessness in small town centres but my own dreadful Maidstone was pretty bad even in the Sixties.

    Without question we disagree on the next point but it is blindingly obvious to everybody except the authorities and femmy groups that the reported case about 10 years ago in a northern city of a man yanking a girl by her hair into an alley ripping off her underclothes and forcibly penetrating her with threat of violence is some way from two young people ending up naked in bed together having sex and she deciding at some point sometimes the next morning that she hadn’t consented.

    For the avoidance of doubt I couldn’t agree more that it is a heinous thing to do to set out to penetrate a woman without her consent. But me and I suspect 80 per cent of the population think that once a female has decided to get undressed and join a male in bed he probably being priapic at that point it is likely to end in full sex.

    While it’s not quite the same as the scene described in the great Joe Turner’s song Rebecca

    Baby baby let’s go down in the woods

    We won’t pick no berries

    But we’ll come back feeling good.

    It’s close.

    According to the Ministry of Justice in 2012 2,596 men were proceeded against for raping a female. Yet the Rapecrisis website says: In January 2013, the Ministry of Justice Office for National Statistics and Home Office released its first ever joint Official Statistics bulletin on sexual violence, entitled An Overview of Sexual Offending in England and Wales. It reported that: Approximately 85,000 women are raped on average in England and Wales every year.

    That is a huge gap to close.

    I accept your experience may demonstrate to you that I’m wrong but I don’t think the average young man goes out and–your word–targets a young woman to attack sexually. I think he hopes to get lucky as we all did at some point.

    I was also surprised by your phrase “in the frequent absence of independent evidence”. This seems akin to as I understand it the Islamic requirement for a stoning sentence for adultery that the act be observed by four independent males.

    Your use of the phrase sexual predators does not accord with the social interaction I watch happening in the pub. The boys and girls all set out for a night out with the idea that concluding with sex is at least possible. This is not acting as a predator.

    I may have got hold of wrong stick and you are talking about one thing I’m talking about another but I don’t think so.

  • Jackthesmilingblack

    Here’s a line you could try, guys: “You have to promise me something, right. No sex.” Really puts chicks on the back foot; all their adult life and even earlier, that’s the premise they’ve been working on. Because essentially that’s all they have to trade with. Especially when they’re so thick they literally don’t know what they don’t know. More than a little humiliating however you dress it up. “Of course I respect you as a person.” Thinks: “Gimme a *ucking break, dimwit.” Really it’s all about supply and demand, which is why you guys in UK are so in the loser’s corner. Be honest, how often have you made a sensitive approach only to find she’s gone deaf and you’re invisible? She’s always waiting for a better man to walk through her door. So ship yourselves “somewheres east of Suez” (non-Muslim obviously), and you’ll think you’ve found the key to a parallel universe. Once that supply and demand ratio runs in your favour, you too will be saying, “White women, who needs um?” Unless you’re one of those racists for whom 100% Caucasian children is a requirement written in stone. Just rattling the bars of that feminist cage.
    Jack, Japan Alps

    • pointlesswasteoftime

      Couldn’t cut it on the local scene, huh?

      • Jackthesmilingblack

        I knew that was coming, I just knew it. You guys in Britain simply don`t realise how short-changed you are being in the home comforts department. Next stop, “Asian bimbos stealing our men.” Not your men for much longer, luv. You had your chance and you blew it.
        Final hot tip; combine emigration with new spouse acquisition. Especially for those men emerging from a messy divorce. So obvious when you think it through. Clean passport, fly the coop.
        Jack, Japan Alps

        • pointlesswasteoftime

          Happy to have obliged. I don’t think you, from your vantage point in the “Japan Alps”, can know what a woman really wants unless you talk to her. Even then, she can’t win. If she wants sex, she’s a “slapper”, and if she doesn’t, she’s a “frigid bore”. Maybe she wants sex sometimes and maybe not at other’s? Not all women feel the same thing all the time.

          • Jackthesmilingblack

            other’s?

          • pointlesswasteoftime

            When losing an argument, pick on the punctuation.

            You’re still a loser. An ex-pat denigrating the women of his own country while he runs into the arms of a woman who might regard him as somewhat exotic, though hopefully she has more sense than to think he is representative of all British males.

          • George Smiley

            He is not a British expat but a Japanese creep (with some serious psychiatric problems and learning difficulties) pretending to be and parodying some kind of a sex-obsessed stereotypical British expat in Japan. He is not fooling anyone but himself! The obvious childish sexual immaturity is surely one tell-tale sign.

        • George Smiley

          Not interested. You are just a Japanese creep. No-one really bothers with most of your textual-commentary diarrhea these days because the regulars know that you are just a bored Oriental, trolling your way into your 40s.

          • Jackthesmilingblack

            When you belatedly realise that I’m not Japanese, but British all along, how do you propose to make amends? I was hoping that in a fit of remorse, guilt and shame, you’d do the honourable thing. But do leave instructions to be buried at sea. You don’t want to be responsible for turning Rochdale cemetery into an open sewer, now do you?
            Jack, the Japan Alps Brit

      • nope

        You see these guys with these poor women from time to time. You always know the look, the “I had to sell myself to some old creepy bloke from abroad to feed my family” look. She’s nearly always half his age and twice his attractiveness. Shudder. When you think what these poor souls have to put up with…

        At least most men who have to resort to purchasing a wife don’t boast about it, they know how humiliating it is and try to dress it up as love.

        It’s always sad too when guys like that try to convince themselves all men are like this. They must really hate men.

        • Jackthesmilingblack

          Japan has a high GNP that UK.

          • pointlesswasteoftime

            “that” UK?

            In light of your earlier pointing out of my typo, may I just say : “hahahahahaha”.

          • George Smiley

            Jackthesmilingblack” is of course a Japanese Walter-Mitty, fantasist idiot with dodgy English.

          • George Smiley

            Which is none of your concern or business anyway unless you are a Japanese; and if you are, kindly sling your hood, please! Which part of “.co.uk” do you not understand?!

          • Jackthesmilingblack

            “sling your hood”
            Try again. Idiomatic expressions can be really difficult for non-native speakers like you, Jonathan Foreigner.

          • George Smiley

            But you are a Troll, so you have a hood, not a hook.

      • George Smiley

        But his local scene is Japan! Who says that he is British?!

        • Jackthesmilingblack

          On a scale of one-ten, how certain are you that I’m not British?
          Care to put your arse where your mouth is? Because if you do you’re on a hiding to nothing.
          Jack, the Japan Alps Brit

          • George Smiley

            It is for and up to you in Japan to prove that you are a British citizen and not for or up to me in Britain to prove that a person who lives in Japan is not a British citizen (the Immigration Act 1971 c. 77). The presumption in British immigration law since at least the year 1971 is that a person is lying unless being able to prove himself otherwise.

          • Jackthesmilingblack

            Backing away now are we, Mr. Chickenshit MacDonald?
            Put you arse where your mouth is or shut the fuck up.

          • When being cornered, just talk pure Gibberish!

  • Zimbalist

    Juries aren’t stupid. They can usually see what’s gone on, with all of the evidence having been presented, and assessing on a factual as opposed to ideological basis.

    • cartimandua

      Most reported rapes never get to court.

      • Liz

        Most rapes are never reported.

    • cartimandua

      The married man raped at knifepoint in a country lane couldn’t “prove it” either.

  • getlost

    Since men are the generally the ones who rape, we must curfew them, home by 9pm, and ensure they drink no more than two alcoholic drinks in an evening.

    What’s that? Gross infringement on human rights? Oh, but you’re ok with women having their rights grossly infringed? I see.

    Women who wear burkas and sit in the house all day get raped.

    Do you know what stops rapists from raping? Rapists deciding not to rape because the penalities are too huge. When society ACTUALLY condemns rape instead of giving lip service to it, we can expect all but the die hard rapists to stop raping.

    Do you know what never stops rape? Staying sober. Because if he doesn’t rape you, if you are lucky enough to avoid him raping you, he will rape someone else instead.

    And unless you have NEVER taken a single risk in your life, you don’t get to lecture women on taking risks when exercising their human right to freedom.

    Here’s an excellent article on victim blaming. .
    http://www.womensagenda.com.au/talking-about/opinions/to-the-unconvinced-the-perpetrators-of-crime-are-responsible-for-crime/201310213080

    • Kaine

      When we see those stories of elderly women being raped in their homes I wonder what the victim-blamers come up with then.

      • Liz

        No they’re good rape victims: not sexual, maternal, domestic, no threat to men’s position as owners of all they survey.

        It’s only attractive females, particularly those with careers, particularly in non-traditional spheres, between the ages of 14 and 42 who are culpable in their own assaults.

    • Lina R

      I like your comment and don’t disagree with your central point, but in the same way we don’t leave our back doors unlocked or walk down the street waving wads of cash, women still have to prevent putting themselves in situations that could be dangerous, and yes, I get girls/women get raped at home, during the day, completely covered up, sober et al. It’s called the world we live in.

      • Liz

        For fuck’s sake, your house doesn’t have rights, you do! Your body doesn’t come with locks on it.

        • cartimandua

          And women have a right and a positive duty to be present in public space. To say women “deserve it” is also to say all the young men who get attacked/ beaten up “deserve it”.
          Do we have a safe country or not?

      • getlost

        Your house is not your vagina. My central point stands. Please read the article on victim blaming.

        Rapists rape because they are rapists. Not for any other reason.

        • rtj1211

          Actually, they probably rape for a variety of reasons, mostly associated with an incorrect formulation in their minds of what sex is about, what consent means and how they should act in the presence of women.

          There are a million ways for that to have emerged from a new born baby, who is undoubtedly incapable of rape. At what point do they become capable of rape?? When the six year old doesn’t say ‘I’ll show you mine if you’ll show me yours’, instead says: ‘Get yer knickers off or I’ll duff you in’?? Where did they learn that sort of aggression eh?? Was it living in a home with a dysfunctional set of parents, where domestic violence occurs?? Well, is the child responsible for that, being exposed solely to unacceptable adult behaviour?? Are they??

          What if their school is full of adolescent boys egging each other on about sex and their sexual prowess, full of stories of how big their cock is, how many girls they’ve already screwed (most of which will be lies, as boys will be boys….)?? How do they get the experience without being ostracised?? How much do they need to be included and where is the restraining male role model to teach them the way to act?? What if they aren’t there?? Is the child responsible at that stage for society’s llls??

          It’s all a very slippery slope deciding at what point an innocent infant transforms into a vulnerable child, into a person for whom conscience exists but situational understanding is lacking, to being a fully fledged responsible adult who couldn’t rape a woman as a matter of principle, isn’t it??

          There are huge numbers of branchpoints where things can go wrong and some of it is the responsibility of the child and some of it is the responsibility of adults either in- or not in their lives.

          Unless someone has the evidence which stands up in court that rapists are born rapists (which I have yet to see presented), your argument is somewhat simplistic in nature and unlikely to be a tool to gain mass convictions…….

          Just as ‘do as you’re told’ as your sole means of disciplining, controlling and influencing children is likely to fail more than 40% of the time due to it being the inappropriate influencing tool for a particular child at a particular point in their life…..

          • getlost

            Nobody said anything about them being born rapists, or even implied it.

            The key point is, rapists rape because they are rapists. Women are not to blame for rape. And it is always a choice to rape unless you are so psychotic and mentally ill that you need to be locked up for treatment.

        • Mr B J Mann

          But a house-owner has ‘uman rights, or is it only vagina-owners who deserve to be treated as ‘umans?

          And if a house-owner wants to minimise their chances of their ‘uman rights being infringed they lock their doors and windows before going out.

          And if the owner of a wad of cash or a bunch of bling wants to minimise their chances of their ‘uman rights being violated they don’t flash the cash when going out.

          Similarly, if you’re concerned about your ‘uman rights, don’t flash your assets about when you go out, and take the elementary precaution of not getting drunk and incapable.

          Because if you’re not bothered about protecting your ‘uman rights – why should anyone else?!

      • cartimandua

        Most rapes are not rapes by a stranger or of drunken hook ups. That’s a misogynists myth.
        Most rapes are by men the victim knows and happen in a domestic setting.
        Soo you should never let a neighbour in /workman/or trust a work colleague or a male friend?

        • Mr B J Mann

          “Most rapes are by men the victim knows and happen in a domestic setting.”

          Because most “rapes” are wimmin feeling “forced” to have sex with their partners when they “didn’t want to” because they were “afraid” that if they didn’t “submit” they might stray or even leave them.

          Or the wimmin realised years afterwards, after being “educated” that their partner had only said they loved them to get into bed with them, and they now regretted letting them coerce them into bed with flowers and chocolates, maybe even a ring, or perhaps half a bottle of wine!

          • cartimandua

            Domestic rapes are done in the context of domestic violence.
            There are still men who believe they have rights over their wifes body. There are even cultures with laws which support this.

          • Mr B J Mann

            It generally helps, when replying to a comment, to actually read the comment first!

          • Mr B J Mann

            First of all, that’s in another culture.

            And if that culture has been imported into this one, it’s because trendy “liberals” insist we become multicultural, so what’s not to like?

            Or is there something else about diversity they bring, apart from cheap nannies and plumbers, colourful clothing and interesting cuisine?!

            Secondly, who commits the domestic violence in lesbian households, as I’ve already asked.

            Thirdly there’s as much domestic violence, if not more, directed at men as women in heterosexual households, or did I forget to mention that?

            Finally, it doesn’t matter how you spin it, if a woman feels “forced” to have sex “when she doesn’t want to” because she’s “afraid” her partner will stray or leave, that isn’t rape, nor is it domestic violence.

            Just like sweet-talking a woman into bed isn’t coercion.

            Nor is a woman deciding after the fact that a man didn’t really love her so she didn’t really willingly go to bed with him.

            Feminists do real rape victims (of both sexes) an enormous dis-service and all but a tiny minority of men an enormous injustice.

          • cartimandua

            While undoubtedly there are women so deranged they “want to drop a man in it”. Most rapes go unreported because women take more responsibility for being in the wrong place than they should.

            Even in the UK 1 in 4 women suffer domestic violence.

            It is “real rape” if a date says no or a man has sex with someone too drugged drunk or ill to consent.

            Women who don’t consent still risk disease and pregnancy even if the rape didn’t mean being beaten black and blue.

            http://www.cps.gov.uk/news/latest_news/vawg_report_2013/

            “Similarly, the considerable rise in the proportion of rape cases that we charge indicates that we are building stronger cases which lead to more guilty pleas – which not only saves the court time and resources, but more importantly, spares the victim the need to relive their experience in court.”

            In domestic violence cases the proportion of guilty pleas rose to 68.5% of all cases charged, which means 92% of convictions are now the result of guilty pleas. Cases charged which were unsuccessful due to victim issues also went down this year (13.5% to 13.2% in 2012-13) which indicates that efforts to improve victim confidence are working.

            Of rape cases referred to the CPS by police, a noticeable improvement was the increase in the proportion which are charged (42.1% to 47.2% in 2012-13) which may reflect the shift in approach taken by prosecutors more recently.”
            “Victim” issues don’t mean “she was lying”. It means she was too scared to continue or not coherent enough.

    • Mr B J Mann

      “Do you know who cannot control themselves and just has to [CRY] rap[ist spotted]? Nobody. Oh, maybe a couple of psychotic, delusional and genuinely mentally ill people.”

      Plus a load of other feminists.

  • SexyIsntSexist

    Why is a 60% conviction rate somehow seen as lacking? This is in line with other conviction rates

    • Gwangi

      UTTERLY true.
      The feminist industry promotes the LIE that raype statistics are lower than they should be. They are not.
      Unless you want to convict men on NO evidence and just the word of some woman, who was drunk, and who is ashamed of her behaviour and craves victimhood, then the conviction stats will remain what they are.
      EVIDENCE is needed in law. That is the point.

      • cartimandua

        There is no greater false reporting of rape than false reports of other crimes.
        So that little myth is rubbish.

        • Gwangi

          IMPOSSIBLE to know that. YOu are just parroting feminist propaganda. Plenty of PERCEPTIONS of women which allege raype when most sensible people would juust say it was drunken youthful fumbling. Feminists always blame men here – but if a young man is clumsy, then that is understandable, esp with the mixed messages being given off by young women these days. Imagine if a young man accused of raype because a young woman

          • Liz

            I think you’re projecting.

        • SexyIsntSexist

          It’s actually much more complicated than that and depends in what data you are looking at. It’s very difficult to gauge and very much depends on exogenous environmental factors.

          I’m a researcher in human sexuality. I have to keep an open mind, so I’m an egalitarian not a feminist. I find feminist theory lacking in nuance and complexity (I have studied feminist theory as well), too dependent on archaic, unfalsifiable hypotheses, too narrow minded and cynical, to offer any useful insights into human sexuality. I am fascinated by both male and female sexuality and my research has shown me that one sex cannot be understood in isolation from the other. Picking a side doesn’t appeal to me.

          I want to encourage understanding between the sexes not divisiveness

          • Damaris Tighe

            Well put.

        • Mr B J Mann

          How much false reporting of murder is there?

          Or real actual violent harmful assault?!

          Or even burglary?

          And if there is, it divides into mainly false reporting for financial gain, with a few mistaken reports – leaving a door open, thinking something’s missing, reporting a break in – and a few malicious ones – fingering someone you’ve got a grudge against.

          You don’t have a whole movement trying to convince householders all open doors are burglary, all men are burglars, all entries over your threshold are burglary, even if you’ve forgotten inviting them in, or you were so drunk at your houseparty you couldn’t remember who you’d invited, or whether you’d given them something.

          You don’t have “Professors” and “Doctors” of Burglary-victim Studies asking householders if they have ever given someone who told them they loved them a personal possession, and then, years later, wondered if they had really loved them, and then asking them if they now regretted giving them something, and didn’t they now feel they had actually been robbed all along?!?!?!

          Or indoctrinating half the population with such carp!!!!!

          • cartimandua

            There are no more false reports of rape than false reports of other crimes.
            Is it just women who you think lie? 1 in 10 rapes are of men and no not “just” gay men.
            The % of men raped by women is .03
            Or to put it another way in the USA the lifetime risk for women in 1 in 6. For men it is 1 in 33 and its likely to be rape by a male not female.

          • Mr B J Mann

            “The % of men raped by women is .03”

            Is that because only 0.03% of wimmin are born with a penis as well as a vagina?

            Other, less sexist statistics put the figure at 5 in 10 rapes are of men.

            So your point is?

            And what proportion of domestic violence is perpetrated by men in lesbian households?!

          • Mr B J Mann

            All depending on which reports you believe.

            But as most “rape” definitions are, by definition, by a man, of a woman, by penile penetration, it’s hardly surprising that most “studies” come out with such “statistics”.

            Especially as so many are generated by feminist activists and women’s studies academics.

            As for the false reports, there aren’t many men that regret having consensual sex, with any woman.

            They might regret the consequences, but they don’t try to claim they didn’t consent.

            Women, on the other hand, have all sorts of reasons for wanting to convince themselves they were “forced” into it.

            Anytime from the morning after a one night stand when they feel regret, remorse, guilt, embarrassment, shame….

            Though to months later when they fall out with their partners…..

            Up to years later when they are “taught” what “rape” is.

            Like their feminist peers or tutors telling them all men are evil, sexist, chauvinist, pigs and all sex is rape, all sexual assault is rape, all banter, wolf-whistling, lookin, sayin mornin luv, is sexual assault, so that’s rape too……

            (How often do you hear that all pedestrians are burglars, or all motorists are whiplash scammers…..?)

            Not to mention all those who use the allegation as an excuse to a partner, friend or family, a weapon against a partner, as a way to get compensation, or because they are sick fantasists……

    • cartimandua

      Because so few rapes actually get taken to court. A great many women who have the courage to go through the hideous process of reporting it. actually get any justice.
      They should just put up posters saying so and so is a rapist.
      A civil prosecution has a lower threshold.

      • Gwangi

        BECAUSE there is no evidence, silly!
        Would you be happy for you 18 year old son to be convicted and sent to prison for life just because some young woman has accused him of crossing a line?
        You clearly have NO empathy for the dilemmas faced by young men these days.
        Or maybe we should make it compulsory for women to sign CONSENT contracts before anything happens?
        In the end, secksual relationships and NOT clear cut – they are messy and esp when alcohol is involved.
        You MUST NOT convict without evidence. Perceptions and pity parties by young women who want to pick and choose when they want to infantilise themselves as victims to get what they want should NOT lead to even ONE conviction.
        You are an extremist nutjob. How about posters put up showing women who are sleeparound liars likely to make false accusations because they crave victimhood and want the compo? Brave? HA! Liars are not brave – they are manipulative bii-itches and should be sent to prison for 20 years if proven to have falsely accused people of abuse. Men falsely accused are brave.

        • cartimandua

          There are far more men ending up Fathers or diseased than there are “falsely accused”. The latter situation is no more frequent than false allegations of other crimes ie very few.
          Consent is not difficult. If she is drunk or drugged or terrified
          she (or he) cannot consent. So your its her (or his fault) he was off his or her face is exactly backwards.
          It is proof of lack of consent.

      • SexyIsntSexist

        Your talking about the attrition rate, which is actually also on par with other crimes. This is the 6-10% stat orthodox femnists have been touting as the conviction rate for years and only ceased after The Stern Report which explicitly said that it was this misrepresentation that was affecting low reporting more than anything else. Orthodox feminists disseminating a rape myth. Who would have thought. Putting the rhetoric of “rape culture” before rape victims, who need help going through a traumatic process not political indoctrination at a exceptionally vulnerable time.

        Any process through the courts is not pleasant. But people do it when they want justice. Orthodox feminists (aka radical feminists) do not want justice for women (or men) however, they want liberation from the “status quo” and “patriarchy”.

        And what of the instances where the police and CPS get it right? Are orthodox feminists helpfully reporting these instances? No. Because this doesn’t fit their negative agenda.

        The law works fine. If I, or any of my children had been raped, I would want the full force of the law brought down on their attacker. not some politically motivated kangaroo court.

      • Mr B J Mann

        Perhaps men should go around putting up posters saying so and so is a neurotic, hysterical false rape accusist?!?!?

        • cartimandua

          The number of rapes reported is a fraction of the reality. Even from taking it through court (with evidence) there are very few successful prosecutions.
          Soo the married man raped by 3 men at knifepoint in a country lane “wanted it” did he? Or did he just invent his trauma?

          • Mr B J Mann

            Or, alternatively, your claimed reality is a figment of the imagination of hysterical feminists who inflate and conflate feeling “forced” to have sex when you don’t feel like it for “fear” of you partner straying with “rape”.

            Who convince women that if a man talked them into bed with chocolates and flowers they were coerced.

            If they went to bed with their former partner because he said he loved them it was all a trick to get into their nicks and so it wasn’t consensual, it was rape….

            And what’s this “evidence”?

            Video with audio?!

            Or a woman’s allegations?!?!?!

  • James

    Given the term “domestic violence” in effect refers to anything which displeases a woman, it was inevitable that rape would follow the same course.

    • getlost

      Women beater and Rapist spotted.

      • Damaris Tighe

        Neurotic nutter spotted

      • Lo Bin Sun

        That’s very heavy, getlost. You could find yourself in a lot of trouble making such a false accusation.

        • getlost

          Nah. I’ll just keep telling the truth and there is nothing whatsoever you or anybody else will do about it.

          Nice try though 🙂

          Now, be sure to keep focusing on the person pointing out the wife beaters and rapists, tone policing and trying to shut them down rather than worrying about the fact that wife beaters and rapists are commenting on this thread.

          • morbidfascination

            Actually, no-one needs to police you as you are just making yourself look stupid with your petulant responses to – in some cases – intelligent posts.

            But I suspect you are safe from any libel claims. Your comments are so palpably absurd it would be hard for anyone to claim that harm had been caused to their reputation.

          • SexyIsntSexist

            Yes. Sunlight is the best anaesthetic 😉

        • cartimandua

          Gwangi is a constant apologist for rape.

          • Liz

            He used to go under the name of Eddie, have a scroll through his past comments before he had to register to comment foe a true picture of his danger to women and teenage girls (or sluts who ask for it in his lexicon). I suspect his mother, who’s sage advice on women he often refers to, may be of the Mrs Bates variety.

  • phil davis

    Matthew Parris is an establishment bore with nothing to say. Piss off.

  • Gwangi

    Spot-on! My mum says the same thing exactly – that the way young women these days get so drunk means THEY get themselves into the contexts where bad things can happen. You cannot blame young men for being young men either. It takes two to tango.
    Also, just to point out the FACT – a sparkling diamond in the dunghill of feminutter manhater propaganda: the number of convictions for rape is around the same as other crimes. You see EVIDENCE is needed, not just vague beery memory of someone who’s had so many one night stands she has not only forgotten the names but the faces of the hordes who have had her.
    Time for women to grow up. Take responsibility for yourselves and stop blaming males for anything bad in your lives.
    Do you SERIOUSLY think men do not have secksual experiences they regret? But then, they don’t have the option of claiming raype or pretending their drinks have been spiked.
    Everyone – males and females – deserve the law to be FAIR. That is. for it to require evidence to convict. With personal relations where alcohol and different perceptions are involved, that will always be an issue.
    And feminists are out of step here. Just HOW many women would want their sons convicted for a bad one night stand with some sleeparound at university who then claims raype.

    • Kaine

      What exactly does ‘acting like young men’ mean? The entire point of feminist analysis is that what we see as ‘acting like young men’ is a social construct which we can change. That the whole point.

      Also, you seem rather… personally… invested in this.

      • Gwangi

        And that is a super explanation of why feminism is bankrupt as an ideology – it refuses to acknowledge innate gender difference; it blames everything on the patriarchy; it infantilised women as and when it wants to – expecting special treatment – yet when it wants to demands equality. This Social construct nonsense is skollobs!
        You’re a real throwback to 1973, ain’t yer?
        Personally invested? BRILLIANT – now you are insinuating I am a WAYPIST.
        You are sick, and if you are a man, I pity you.

        • Kaine

          There are plenty of young men who don’t treat women like prey animals. That you can’t overcome your own problems fulfilling your urges doesn’t indict our entire gender. The vast majority of men are perfectly capable of talking to a woman without wanting to rape her. Your argument is that of the Wahabiist nutters that all women should go round in burkhas so as not to tempt men.

          And you pity me? Pal, I’m not the one who needed his mum to tell him he wasn’t a rapist and all those bad girls really do deserve it.

          Is your real name Norman Bates?

          • Gwangi

            You are a sick and twisted and VERY sad individual. Nuff said really.
            Now go raipe a mushroom, Betty, and leave the serious debate to those mentally equipped to debate in a mature and intelligent fashion.
            Maybe when you could one day actually TALK to older women and hear how they deplore the vile drunken sluuttish behaviour of young girls these days. I mean, really – what child wants his mum to spread her legs for scores of men every weekend when she’s drunk?
            And it IS different for men. That is biological fact – accept it and you’ll be much happier.

          • getlost

            Rapist spotted.

          • Damaris Tighe

            Neurotic nutter on steroids spotted.

          • Liz

            Part of the problem spotted.

        • cartimandua

          Males (or little boys) can equally end up Daddies or with lethal STIs if they have so little judgement they sleep with a stranger or an incapable woman.

    • pointlesswasteoftime

      Truly pathetic, verging on the insane. It’s really easy for a woman to rape a drunk/doped man, isn’t it? Er, no. He wouldn’t get it up. If men have sexual experiences they regret, their penises seem to be doing well out of it.

    • Liz

      Nobody gets themselves into a situation where rape occurs except rapists.

      You can’t rape yourself with alcohol. Moron. And so is your stupid mother.

      • cartimandua

        He is too stupid to notice that having se* with a drunk or drugged woman could end up with a lifetime of child support or a lethal STI.

      • Kaine

        No but Liz, the fact no woman has ever bought dear Gwangi a drink is a massive social injustice that means all women and girls get what they deserve.

    • getlost

      Rapist spotted..

    • cartimandua

      Sons need to learn that having se* with an unconscious woman is rape. It is also stupid as it could result in 21 years of child support or an STI.
      Men don’t “have” to have it. Its why God invented wan****.

      • nope

        His mum says it. Oh my God. You can’t make this stuff up.

        • cartimandua

          I imagine the Mothers of all the child groomers and rapists at some point
          denigrated white women.

          • getlost

            Not necessarily. It could have been the mothers were victims of and the fathers were doing the grooming. Hard to say in each individual case. .

  • trace9

    Arranged marriages with a reluctant partner are obviously rape. Glaringly, & now ‘British’ (again). No mention above or prob. below – shall we say, for ‘Rochdale Reasons’..? Matthew’s such a nice non-racist, & aren’t we all, sigh…

  • Gwangi

    It reminds me of the ‘No means No’ nonsense false argument.

    Any simpleton with a smattering of literary knowledge must know that writers have for centuries shown how what people say is NOT what they mean at all – in fact they often mean the opposite!

    From Iago to 10CC’s I’m NOT in Love (a song stating how desperately a man IS in love), saying the opposite of what one means is fundamentally human – people do NOT mean what they say or say what they mean.

    The literalists who think people do talk and behave like that are as dim as the Islamists who think the Koran the literal word of God.

    • Liz

      For example when I say what you write is sometimes worth reading, it’s the opposite of what I mean.

    • getlost

      Rapist spotted.

  • global city

    Parris raped the human value of the good people of Clacton is the Times.

  • Terence Hale

    Hi,
    Raphael’s “The Sacrifice at Lystra” would have been more condescending.

  • getlost

    I will be back later today or tomorrow or whenever I get time to call out rapists as I see them.

    All the hysterical shrieking, name calling and attempts to shut me down are like water off a duck’s back. I find it encouraging that my statement of the obvious is having such a powerful effect. So, go it 🙂

    Genuinely interesting that some people are offended by my stating the obvious and have attempted to tone police me and shut me down for pointing out rapists (and one wife beater). But they are fine with people making pro rapist and wife beating statements. Odd.

    If you don’t want to be called a rapist, don’t make pro rapist statements.

    And if the truth offends you, I am afraid the problem does not lie with the truth.

    • cartimandua

      The Internet is a masculine club.

      • getlost

        Unfortunately true. And some of the women commenting are either a) not women or b) have internalised sexism to such an extent they will acts as cheerleaders for sexists and rapists. Damn shame.

        I also do not believe most men are the shrieking, hysterical sexists that we commonly see on forums like these. But sadly the ones with mental health issues and the ones who are simply sexist and have never been educated on the topic are the ones who comment the most. We need decent men to speak up. Decent men, unfortunately, often just don’t think about or realise what women are facing online and in everyday life.

        I learned long ago to completely ignore attacks on me by venomous sexists and their cheerleaders. And every couple of months I shut my ac down and open a new one, as otherwise you get stalkers and right now Disqus doesn’t allow blocking.

        But I will keep speaking the truth and putting it out there and encouraging women and decent men to speak up, despite the avalanche of hate speech and sexism they are forced to endure.

        By allowing these sexist statements to pass unchallenged, we are allowing those who think attacking women and blaming women for being raped is acceptable to seek comfort in confirmation bias. They are not in the majority and I won’t let them pretend they are.

        Now, I am off out with family and friends 🙂

        • Kaine

          *applause*

        • Liz

          The Spectator acts as a host for a fair amount of it.

          • getlost

            It sure does. Sigh.

      • terence patrick hewett

        Actually it is a club which anyone may join.

        • Liz

          I guess you’ve never read: Idealism and Discrimination in Cyberspace by Professor Mary Anne Franks.

          • terence patrick hewett

            I guess you’ve never read “An Anglo-Saxon Primer” by Henry Sweet.

  • Liz

    When people advise women to take precautions (around men), what they actually mean is women should have fewer liberties than men, have fewer civil rights, have fewer human rights. Those precautions concern their right to free association, their right to travel, their right to choose their own clothing, their right to drink, their right to a sexuality and to exercise it.

    Not only is it spectacularly self-entitled of men to tell other people they should have reduced freedoms so men don’t get held accountable for their actions, it is also illegal discrimination.

    Rape isn’t inevitable, it is the direct result of our social and legal policies and women have had enough of living restricted lives because of it. Get your house in order.

  • Terry Field

    The British environmemt, political, economic, social, cultural, and legal is experiencing rapid collapse.
    The State exists as a sexual, social, religioscultural, and economic failed experiment.
    All that has bee done since 1945 has ended in failure.
    The direction continues, the decline becomes unbearable, and the result? Bitter puritanism. Angry intolerance, rabid lying about responsibility.
    The call for rammed-through convictions is the same as the Cameron suggestion of the effective suspension of habeus corpus to remove citizenship by arbitrary conviction for attendance in foreign fields of conflict.
    It now seems almost certain that the architecture of lying and manipulation we have all become so used to via the actions of the National Propaganda Centre, known as the BBC has reached its nemesis, with the Scots saying goodbye and to hell with the manipulation.
    Rape needs to be proven.
    The judge who said paralytically drunk women cannot expect to have their stories believed when they were insensible is simply expressing common sense.
    If it cannot be proven, then the defendant should be discharged.
    HAs any work been done to see if the super-sexualisation and often quite grotesque flaunting of body parts by so many ill-controlled and hedonistic British women is correlated with the suggested incidence of rape?
    No?
    I wonder why?
    Aaaah……..of course, urban warrior political correctness mixed with leftie slob-culture!
    Of course.
    Now I see.

    The Law applies the appropriate evidential standards to stop mob-justice and lynch-mobbery.
    That may become a victim of the headlong collapse in British civilisation.
    It really is like Rome in the late third century.
    A catastrophe.

  • cartimandua

    Recently a talk was given by a person in authority at a University.
    “Gentleman don’t set the bar low. Don’t just look for “consent” look for enthusiasm.”
    If you don’t know a person and do not know their history and their health situation don’t have se* with them.
    Or it could be a lifetime on retrovirals or 20 years of child support.

  • SexyIsntSexist

    Carol Tavris and some excellent real world observations on human sexuality. Watch it all, it is very much worth it 🙂 http://www.skepticink.com/incredulous/2014/08/06/carol-tavris-video-brings-clarity-sense-sexual-assault-discourse/

  • Liz

    “I wish feminists who lobby for the widest definition of rape would understand how ill they serve those who have known rape in its strictest definition.”

    “We need to rescue rape in all its horror from dilution by loose definition, ”

    How would you like to define rape, Matthew?

    “The word ‘consent’, I’d submit, need not in its ordinary usage describe an all-or-nothing state of mind, wholly present or entirely absent.”

    So a little bit of unwillingness or reluctance can be overcome? With what – charm? Force?

  • Liz

    “We may (many of us) think there has been some contributory folly by a victim who voluntarily drinks to excess, and we may think that relevant to the severity of the crime or sentence.”

    You think that the crime is less serious and the sentence should be less severe if the victim is drunk? How about if they are an alcoholic? Or on drugs? Or prescription drugs? Or hungover? Or over-tired?

    You think if a boy is drunk and somebody stabs him, he contributed to it? Or if somebody is asleep in their bed and they get burgled they didn’t have their wits about them and brought it on themselves a little bit? What about if they were drunk? How about if it was for a good cause like their 21st?

    Is that like bad Aids (homosexual) and good Aids (blood transfusion)?

    Or does this only apply to females and sexual crime and male perpetrators?

  • Liz

    Hard as it is for men to get their heads around, women have precisely the same rights to drunkeness and a sexuality as straight men do, as homosexuals do.

    This sobriety you recommend for women, you get that it doesn’t just apply in dark alleys or dorm rooms right? That rapists don’t have a favoured spot which women can avoid. That sexual assault is an ever present threat, anytime, anywhere therefore sobriety is a permanent code of conduct for women.

    How about instead of policing women’s behaviour, we start policing men’s? How about you guys start taking some god-damn liberty-sapping precautions so you don’t end up raping people?

    • Damaris Tighe

      If a man gets blind drunk, he’s vulnerable to assault & robbery. If a woman get’s drunk she’s also vulnerable to r*pe. It isn’t a gender thing. Getting out of your head is generally a stupid thing to do in this bad, bad world.

      • Liz

        Rape certainly is a gender thing seeing as rape is primarily perpetrated by males against females.

        Robbery isn’t a gender thing, it affects us all equally. If anything, women are more susceptible and targeted more often.

        Robbery is likely to happen only in a few discreet scenarios, it’s possible to love a full life whilst avoiding it and being drunk in those situations. Not so rape, it can strike anywhere, anytime, the most likely place is at home and by a husband or boyfriend. When people advise people not to get “blind drunk” in case of rape (very few accusations are made by blind drunk women in comparison to those who have just been drinking socially) what they are suggesting is for women to always be sober.

        • Damaris Tighe

          I’ve posted my full position on the subject at the top of the page.

          • Liz

            I suspect women wouldn’t mind taking all these extra precautions ( and it’s not a short list believe me) if they felt anything was being done to sort the problem out so they didn’t need to in the future. But it looks a lot like men are using it as an excuse for inaction against one another’s rights to act with a certain level of impunity. Why should women put up with this? Don’t you think we want to be able to relax and let our hair down and have adventures and have sex too?

          • Damaris Tighe

            The trouble with me is I’m a bit of a prude. I don’t agree with blind drunkenness & casual s*x for anyone so my heart isn’t in what you suggest.

          • Liz

            That’s fine, nobody is forcing you to…

            This whole blind drunk business is a red herring. Matthew Parris is muddying the water. When rape victims are reported as having been drinking, most of the time it’s just social drinking and largely irrelevant to their ability or inability to give consent.

          • Damaris Tighe

            Ok, I accept this. But anyway, if a woman is blind drunk she clearly can’t give consent, & if it’s just social drinking I assume she’s in a position to say ‘no’. So either way, it’s r*pe.

          • Liz

            Exactly.

      • getlost

        2 options.

        1) Rapist pretending to be a woman spotted.
        2) Woman who enjoys the rape of other women spotted.

        • Damaris Tighe

          You are a neurotic on steroids who makes false r*pe claims. Men should avoid you like the plague.

          See what it looks like when you make libellous statements simply because you disagree with a post.

  • Liz

    “The very word ‘rape’ has been weakened; and complainants as a class have been brought into disrepute. ”

    I think it’s been strengthened, it’s been widened to include marital and other domestic rape, date rape, drunk rape, rape of prostitutes. Gradually the definition is moving away from what it used to be (a property crime committed against the male father or husband who benefitted from the value placed on a woman’s chastity and honour) towards being a crime against women’s sexual autonomy.

    Complainants as a class have always been in disrepute. For much of history they faced social ostracism, the option of suicide, disbelief and blame and even punishment, the vast majority in this country and abroad never tell anyone. Today we hear of raped girls found hanging off of trees, the suspicion is by their own male relatives. In this country we have to offer them anonymity so that they are further harassed and abused by the public as Ched Evans’ victim was. What doesn’t bring them into disrepute is brave girls pressing charges in situations many in the past have excused as boys being boys.

  • rtj1211

    Actually there is another huge problem involved here: the effect on the rest of a man’s life if he is accused of ‘rape’, whether convicted or not.

    If we are talking about the boundaries that this article discusses, let us assume that there will be plenty of cases where the woman is certainly not comatose but is also certainly drunk. Let us assume that the man is not sufficiently inebriated to suffer from brewer’s droop, but is also clearly not sober.

    This really has nothing in common with kidnapping a 14 year old girl, having a gang of men rape her at will and leave her half dead whilst going off to brag about the tart you shagged whilst getting too drunk to rape her again.

    Do you seriously think that a 10 year prison sentence should be doled out to a man who was operating on the boundaries of consent?? What about Big Brother Surveillance for the rest of his life?? What percentage of men will ask women to conceive by IVF to protect themselves from such a life?? You need violent gang rape with kidnapping, you need violent rape alone, you need to take into consideration the age of the victim, you need to take into consideration the levels of calculation required to engineer the situation and you need to consider the nature of the acts carried out once the situation has been engineered. That is a huge variety of scenarios with proportionately different appropriate sentences.

    Do you think a man/woman operating at the boundaries of consent should be ostracised for life, whilst politicians who supinely vote for mass murder without doing due diligence on the intel are to be honoured as societal icons?? I don’t. I actually think a man/woman’s first offence should be 6 – 12 months in prison, 3 years of being out on probation and then the slate is wiped clean if they have shown that they represent little or no risk of re-offending. A second offence, you up the punishment considerably with far less likelihood of being truly free again. As for politicians for whom 100,000 dead far away is ‘just one of those things’, I’d like them banned from public life for life. Forever. Never in a position to wipe out human life again due to responsibility that never grew sufficiently to ever become ‘diminished’ in nature…….that’s far more humane that wiping out their own families to teach them human responsibility, isn’t it??

    I very much doubt such a position would ever be reached. It would require judges to exercise sound judgement, which does not appear to be a feature of British judiciaries, which is why they have to be tied to ‘precedent’, since 95% of those sitting in judgement over us are too immature to act with sense, proportion and understanding. It would also require the media to act similarly, which has a zero percentage chance of occurring so long as the media is run by those who make money from celebrity ego-wanking, after all.

    It would also require politicians to take appropriate responsibility for their own actions, inactions, nazi orderly-esque ‘doing what they are told’ etc etc.

    All that will happen the day the sun rises in the west, as they say in China…….

    • Liz

      Kidnapping a 14 year old, gang raping her and leaving her for dead is your benchmark for prosecution? Jesus Christ, you might want to lower the bar a bit.

    • getlost

      Rapist spotted.

      • Jackthesmilingblack

        Shut the fuck up and get lost.

  • Damaris Tighe

    Let’s instil some common sense into this discussion.

    R*pe is r*pe. If a man has s*x with a woman not able to give consent because she’s totally out of it, then he’s violated her. A woman’s default position is not ‘yes’ but ‘no’. A woman (or man) should not be seen as perpetually available for s*x who only has to have her consent button turned off.

    However, OUTSIDE a court of law (ie it’s no defence for r*pe) it would be valid to comment that if the woman got herself blind drunk & was wearing a skirt up to her b*m & a top down her navel, she’s contributed to it. To say anything else is to treat her as a child without adult responsibility.

    Just as if my car is stolen, the thieves are no less thieves because I left the keys in the ignition. But outside a court of law you’d be entitled to say to me, ‘what an idiot’ & ‘you made it easy for them’.

    • getlost

      2 options.
      1) Rapist pretending to be a woman spotted.
      2) Woman who enjoys the rape of other women spotted.

      Yep. Am just going to keep calling out rapists. You’re welcome 🙂

      • Damaris Tighe

        You are a neurotic on steroids who makes false rape claims. Men should avoid you like the plague.

        See what it looks like when you make libellous statements simply because you disagree with a post.

        I am a woman. Proud to be a pioneer in male bastions when you were in nappies or before you ever blighted this planet with your presence.

    • Liz

      Adult responsibility for what?

      You have a low opinion of men if you think their default response to a vulnerable or underdressed female is to assault her. Is that what you meant – you want women to treat all men, including you as a potential rapist? To not trust men? Or did you mean all other men, not you? That’s what all men say.

      Women have a right to flirt and be sexual, that’s not a crime, there is nothing a woman has to be responsible for in that situation except treating herself and the other person with respect. It is absolutely not an invitation to men to mistreat or abuse her, that isn’t a right men have around women. And only a misogynist would think that would be a normal response to arousal.

      • getlost

        This commenter belongs to the “pretending to be a woman” club.

        • Damaris Tighe

          Why don’t you answer my points (most of which you’d agree with) like Liz rather than making a complete fool of yourself with abusive comments?

          • getlost

            Well, since you are busy telling everyone men are animals who choose not to control themselves and women are to blame for men choosing to rape them, I very much have answered your “points”. If you mean the increasingly enraged and bizarre temper tantrums you are throwing and your ever more desperate attempts to silence my honesty, I’m afraid those futile endeavours are only making me laugh.

            So to sum up, I have answered each and every one of your “points” correctly with the following:

            2 options.
            1) rapist pretending to be a woman spotted.
            2) woman who enjoys the rape of other women spotted.

            And I will continue to do so, as I choose, when I choose.

            You’re welcome 🙂

          • Damaris Tighe

            I’ve said the very opposite. You are truly a demented nutter.

          • getlost

            *buck, buck, buck…cheep, cheep*

            That’s *foul* abuse. You’re welcome 🙂

          • getlost

            Nice to see you took my advice on that, as well as backing down on the pro rape statements. See – pointing out when people get it wrong IS effective 🙂

        • Liz

          Along with SexyIsntSexist.

      • Damaris Tighe

        Liz, what makes you think I’m not a woman just because I say a few things you don’t agree with? Why do people on these & other pages question my identity because they don’t agree with me, rather than simply answering me? I’ve been called a muslim, a jew & now a man simply because people disagreed with me.

        Very collectivistic: impute a collective identity rather than discuss.

    • Liz

      The only person who has responsibility for rape is the rapist. He is a morally competent man. He makes a choice to rape. He needs absolutely no help shouldering the burden of his choices.

      It’s men who need to start taking responsibility for THEIR behaviour instead of constantly palming it off on women.

      • Damaris Tighe

        I agree. But it’s a bad old world & knowing this men & women should take precautions. That’s just reality. Work to change the reality.

        • Liz

          I do work to change the reality. The reality will change when men’s minds do. It could change tomorrow if men wanted it to. It starts with accepting that women have as much right as they do to have sex without being abused.

          • SexyIsntSexist

            Producing reactionary radfem rhetorical diarrhoea is not “work”. More and more women are moving away from feminism and towards egalitarianism. You are not changing minds.

          • Liz

            No they aren’t. More and more MRAs wish they were.

          • SexyIsntSexist

            That’s a rhetorical fart not an argument.

          • Liz

            It’s a fact, dumbass.

          • SexyIsntSexist

            Classy.

            Actually facts come with evidence. If you have some show it

          • Liz

            You’re boring. And have you asked that poor girl who’s picture you are creepily using to try to pass yourself off as female whether she minds being associated with your dumbass comments?

          • SexyIsntSexist

            Haha.

            no evidence then.

            Thanks for the compliment too 🙂

          • SexyIsntSexist

            It’s very telling that radical feminists cannot believe other women are rational and accuse them of being men. How sexist is that?

            SexyIsntSexist is my Twitter handle alongside my name Paula Wright. I’m not hiding in the shadows. I am out there, I am a published researcher, I am a professional actor. I challlenge radical feminist nonsense everywhere because I believe in real egalitarianism.

            If feminists were also egalitarians, they would have no problem with the term, and why more men and women chose it over “feminism”. That they don’t is telling.

            Please tell me I’m boring again and am a dumbass. They do the job of exposing your spite and cynicism so well.

          • Liz

            You’re boring and a dumbass.

          • SexyIsntSexist

            lol. Thanks. You put on a good show

    • Liz

      Women can’t take the keys out of their ignition.

      I’m getting really tired of men comparing women’s sexuality to possessions they have and can put away and lock up out of harms way. Put your own sexuality under lock and key!

      • Damaris Tighe

        I’m not a man, I’m a woman. I’ve made it clear in my main post that a woman is not a lump of meat who should be assumed to be constantly available if only her consent button were switched off.

        • Liz

          I’m getting tired of women doing it too.

          We can’t lock our bodies or our gender or our sexuality up safe and sound and go about our business. If we lock them up, we lock ourselves up.

          • SexyIsntSexist

            Oh, masterful example of post-hoc rationalising so’s not to have to back track or apologise in good faith for making a sexist assumption

          • Liz

            The assumption was right the first time. I chose not to embarrass him that’s all.

    • SexyIsntSexist

      You cannot talk common sense with a radical feminist. Is this not obvious by now?

      • Damaris Tighe

        Yes. The conduct of this thread has been shocking. I’m amazed the Spectator didn’t take down the libellous comments – they’ve censored far less.

        • SexyIsntSexist

          Sunlight is one of the best anaesthetics. The ignorance of most radical feminists needs to be exposed not hidden

          • Damaris Tighe

            Yes, but the nasty interventions (I’m referring to gelost only) resulted in, at one point, all dissenters fleeing leaving the thread to the mutual m*sturbation of getlost & her friends. Which is what she wanted.

          • SexyIsntSexist

            Well that has to stop

          • Damaris Tighe

            It’s difficult. People like me don’t like abuse dropping into their in-boxes & the easiest thing to do is cut & run rather than confront. I chose to confront but didn’t enjoy it one bit. Sociopaths like getlost don’t care.

          • SexyIsntSexist

            Someone messaged you personally? Who did that? Saying what??

          • Damaris Tighe

            No – I mean when a disqus reply goes to my inbox.

          • Liz

            Oops.

          • SexyIsntSexist

            Can we get The Spectator mods to look into this? See how pervasive bullying and intimidation is via personal messages?

            It is in the public interest to expose these people for what they are.

          • Damaris Tighe

            I would rather the Spectator looked into the practice of calling dissenters ‘rapist’ & similar. That crosses a line.

          • SexyIsntSexist

            Just because an idiot stranger calls someone a name doesn’t make them that thing. Taking that kind of thing personally just gives them power. It doesn’t matter to me what a stranger calls me. They are strangers. It’s a fantasy ad hominem attack. Intelligent people reading know this and the person doing it reveals the weakness of their argument by doing it.

          • Liz

            The oops was for you and your false assumptions that you don’t even have the grace to backtrack from, dumbass.

          • SexyIsntSexist

            Really Damaris, these things should be exposed. The fundamental dishonesty and hypocrisy. It reveals them for what they are. Did GetLost or Liz message you?

          • Damaris Tighe

            No – you misunderstood my post. I meant disqus messages sent to my inbox. It was a turn of phrase, that’s all.

        • Liz

          What libellous comments?

  • Liz

    When Mary Jane Mowatt remarked that she only knew of a few situations where a rape drug had been administered to a victim she’s apparently not accounting for the fact that loads of women report that they suspect they’ve been the victim of this, have reported it to the police and been treated dismissively, no samples taken.

  • getlost

    So, to reiterate my post from a day ago which respond to any an all attempts to victim blame and shift responsibility:

    Since men are the generally the ones who rape, we must curfew them, home by 9pm, and ensure they drink no more than two alcoholic drinks in an evening.

    What’s that? Gross infringement on human rights? Oh, but you’re ok with women having their rights grossly infringed? I see.

    Of course, I would never suggest such a gross violation of men’s rights, despite the fact that many are happy to suggest massively curtailing women’s rights.

    Women who wear burkas and sit in the house all day get raped.

    Do you know what stops rapists from raping? Rapists deciding not to rape because the penalities are too huge. When society ACTUALLY condemns rape instead of giving lip service to it, we can expect all but the die hard rapists to stop raping.

    Do you know who cannot control themselves and just has to rape? Nobody. Oh, maybe a couple of psychotic, delusional and genuinely mentally ill people. That is why we do not see rapists raping women in coffee shops. They exercise control. Rape is a choice.

    That bears repeating. Rape is a choice. And that is why rapists wait and do not rape in malls, coffee shops and supermarkets. They exercise control and choice.

    Do you know what never stops rape? Staying sober. Because if he doesn’t rape you, if you are lucky enough to avoid him raping you, he will rape someone else instead.

    And unless you have NEVER taken a single risk in your life, you don’t get to lecture women on taking risks when exercising their human right to freedom.

    Here’s an excellent article on victim blaming. http://www.womensagenda.com.au/talking-about/opinions/to-the-unconvinced-the-perpetrators-of-crime-are-responsible-for-crime/201310213080

    • getlost

      And as I said a while back, I will be back later today or tomorrow or whenever I get time to call out rapists as I see them. If you don’t want me to call you a rapist, stop posting pro-rape comments. Easy.

      All the hysterical shrieking, name calling and attempts to shut me down are like water off a duck’s back. I find it encouraging that my statement of the obvious is having such a powerful effect. So, go for it 🙂

      If and when I choose to stop commenting it will be because I feel my point has been made clearly enough. Never because a rapist or cheerleader for rape is trying to prevent me from telling the truth.

      It is genuinely interesting that some people are offended by my stating the obvious and have attempted to tone police me and shut me down for pointing out rapists (and one wife beater). But they are fine with people making pro rapist and wife beating statements. Odd.

      Again, stop making pro rape statements and I will not be forced to keep pointing out rapists. Or, keep going. And so will I.

      And if the truth offends you, I am afraid the problem does not lie with the truth.

      And with that, I have other things to attend to.

      Feel free to get stuck in. I can see I am making an impact 🙂

      • getlost

        Oh, and a quick pre-emptive on tone policing. Occasionally, people try to pretend that they were really your ally till the tone of discourse changed their mind.

        Nope. Those who are anti rape and anti victim blaming could not have their minds changed in a hundred years to being pro rape and pro victim blaming, regardless of tone of discourse.

        To quote from this clever little blog post: http://www.patheos.com/blogs/sarahoverthemoon/2013/07/privilege-oppression-being-nice/

        >I’ll be hurting from oppression, or I’ll see others hurting from it, and we’ll speak out through frustration and pain, and someone will tell us that if we don’t “play nice” we’ll never get what we want.

        How sadistically evil does that sound when you really stop and think about it? What are these people really saying?

        “I’m perfectly capable of treating you as a human being, and I fully recognize how much you’re hurting, but I’m going to hurt you even more because I don’t like your tone.”

        “You want power in this system. But before I give it to you, you’ve got to bow to my standards of tone, so I can remind you who’s really in charge.”

        “If I’m oppressing you, it’s actually YOUR fault.”

        So, yeah. Tone policing has no effect whatsoever on me. Except now and then it makes me laugh.

        Ciao.

        • Damaris Tighe

          I’m willing to bet that if asked you would say how evil bullying is & how much you oppose that too

          So please explain me how you defend your bullying here of anyone whose post doesn’t 100% fall in step with your own views?

          Because that’s what you’re doing, aren’t you? You just make your statements, enjoy any 100% agreement, & then smugly flit away. But you never have a proper convo. You just bully everyone else who are less than 100% behind you with the worst kind of name-calling & libel.

          I had a convo with Liz & she opened my eyes to an aspect of the subject I hadn’t sufficiently appreciated. But all you want to do is chase me off the thread with name-calling. Because you’re a bully.

          And I’m going to call YOU out.

          • getlost

            Nah. Only people making pro rape statements got called rapists. Lots of other people didn’t. Including you. I completely ignored your dozen or so other bizarre attacks on me right up until you started making pro rape statements and would still be ignoring your hysterical adolescent insults if you hadn’t started promoting rape.

            One thing got you on my radar. Blaming women for rape. Nice to see you backed down on that because I called you out on it though. See how that works?

            Cue feeble attempt to pretend otherwise and further bizarre statements 🙂

            I get it, you really really hate that you think and talk like a rapist and are going to keep squealing about it in desperation.

            And every single time you make a pro rapist comment I am saying this:

            2 options.
            1) rapist pretending to be a woman spotted.
            3) woman who enjoys the rape of other women spotted.

            Nothing more to say to you, so I won’t be. You are free to keep up the hysterical trolling though and see what other bizarrely abusive epithets you can come up with in an attempt to remove attention from your and other pro rape comments.

            The only thing I will be saying to you from now on will be to call you a rapist when you make statements promoting rape.

            You’re welcome.

          • Damaris Tighe

            I can say with categorical certainty that nothing you have said has changed my mind on anything. My earliest post here said that the default position is always ‘no’ in any situation.

            In fact your approach to this argument has the opposite affect on me because I will not be moved by bullying. And I don’t read what you say because your bullying removes any interest in what you have to say.

            You have a paranoid totalitarian personality. If someone doesn’t agree with you 100% you bully them. If they agree a bit with you, you accuse them of pretending & bully them.

            You are a totalitarian & I’m calling you out on this. Ciao. Sleep well sweety pie.

          • SexyIsntSexist

            Pro rape statements on this thread? I can’t see them. What are they? Rape is great? Rape is good? More rape please?

            Disclaimer, no one was raped in the writing of these statements

          • Liz

            No, they’re saying rape is inevitable and the only thing we as a society can do about it is tell women to stop it happening to them, if they really want to.

          • SexyIsntSexist

            Some degree of rape is inevitable, just as is murder, theft, assault, cancer, diabetes. The only thing a responsible society can do is tale steps to lessen risk. So obese people are told to loose weight to lessen the risk of diabetes and heart disease. Psychopaths and sociopaths are born not made. These are the people who are responsible for the majority of rapes. They are opportunistic predators. I don’t live in fear of rape. Being told to be responsible is not victim blaming. Telling women (and men – well no fool tells men this because they already know it isn’t true) they ought to be able to go anywhere and not EVER come to the attention of predators is irresponsible and foolish. More than that, it is putting young women in harms way and ensuring they will learn about life the worst way possible. There is a perfectly reasonable middle ground here. Feminists have a duty of care towards young impressionable women which they flout in the name of ideology. It’s immoral

          • Liz

            Not a single solitary rape is inevitable. Not a single one.

            Men aren’t forces of nature, they aren’t wild animals, they aren’t natural disasters or acts of God, they aren’t a speeding car, or a disease, they are morally competent human beings who make choices. They choose not to rape you in a supermarket, or when there are witnesses around, they choose not to rape strippers and lap dancers or drunk people in crowds.

            They tell us they’re more morally competent than us and therefore have to be in charge of everything.

          • SexyIsntSexist

            Your understanding of human psychology is masterful. Give Liz a PhD!

          • Liz

            SexyIsntSexist. Give the fake woman a guitar.

          • Liz

            Being told to be responsible for another person’s actions is the very definition of victim blaming.

          • SexyIsntSexist
          • Liz

            Idiot who can’t tell the difference between diabetes and human beings.

          • Liz

            Cancer: caused by a non aware, non morally competent disease process
            Diabetes: caused by a non aware, mon morally competent disease process.
            Rape not caused by a non-aware, non-morally disease process. Caused by adult male human beings’ choices. I’m not sure men would be all that grateful to be compared to a disease,

          • SexyIsntSexist

            The vast majority of rapes being carried out by psychopaths and sociopaths who don’t have a functioning theory of mind, I don;t think they will care very much. And that’s the point. Most men have a very well functioning theory of mind and are not rapists.

          • Damaris Tighe

            I doubt Liz & her little friend getlost know what you mean by ‘theory of mind’!

          • Liz

            Absolute bollocks.

          • Liz

            Where do rapists hang out? What precautions guard against rape? Avoiding dark alleys and not getting drunk with strangers, is that it? Or should we add a long list of other things women shouldn’t and don’t do that men take for granted? Like not jogging on canal paths or through woods or in the early morning or evening, not getting mini cans, black scabs, walking, driving long distances alone, not breaking down, not accepting help, not hitch hiking, not leaving their drink unattended, not accepting a drink off somebody, not being sexual, not flirting, not dancing, not kissing, not having sex, not living in a ground floor flat, not living in a first floor flat, not leaving the windows open at night, not leaving the back door unlocked in the day, not letting tradesmen in without ID, not travelling alone, but not being too paranoid to travel alone, not sitting by the river on a summers day, not laying on a deserted beach, not skinny dipping, and on and on and on it goes. Until women wear the burquh and font make any noise while walking and never leave the house without a chaperone and STILL the get raped.

            The answer to rape has never been and never will be female precautions. It will be women getting our of the house and taking up space, demanding their rights and liberties, refusing point blank to take ANY responsibility for men’s bad behaviour and instead holding them fully to account.

            Don’t give into terrorists and not give into bullies and font give into rapists.

          • SexyIsntSexist

            “Is that it?” The limits of YOUR imagination do not mirror what this society does to limit rape. The limits of an imagination so biased and practiced in post-hoc rationalising. The diarrhoea that spills out being held up as “thought”?

            No, that’s not it. If we depended on radical feminists for anything truly progressive…well, Paglia was right. We would still be living in caves.

            And please let me remind you, a conviction rate of 60% is MORE than many other crimes. The attrition rate is also on a par with other crimes.

          • MrsDBliss

            I’ve read through these posts and – although I know my integrity, sex, honesty everything is going to be questioned by you in a juvenile manner I just have to comment.
            I was raped in the manner in which Damaris describes.
            I was incredibly drunk – I’d intended to get drunk, but didn’t realise just how bad I was as I was drinking cocktails. A friend arranged for a sober friend to drive me home; he hadn’t had a drop all night. As he drive me home I was so far gone that he had to pull over and allow me to throw up. He never asked me for my address, obviously never intending to drive me home. When we went into his house I actually stood up fully clothed in the shower in an attempt to sober myself up. The last I rmember was him lying on top of me and me trying to push him off but my size in comparison to his and the amount of my innebriation made it impossible to do. After trying for some time I finally checked to see if he was wearing a condom and gave up exhausted.
            I don’t find Damaris’ comments at all offensive. I have no doubt that she’d agree with me that I was raped by her previous comments, I also agree that it was stupid and irresponsible of me to put myself in a position of danger – just as it would be if I’d got myself so drunk that I couldn’t protect myself from being mugged. Like Damaris has stated though, repeatedly, this doesn’t negate this man’s rsponsibilities for his actions – particularly as he was sober.
            The fact is if I had met her before hand and shed been able to give me advice, and I’d taken it, I would have had to live with it. It’s good advice.
            The bahviour I find of offensive is yours. Your immaturity in discussing this is actually making a mockery of rape.
            I also find your complete dismissal of any responsibility a woman has for her own protection patronising to women – as Damaris hasn’t stated it negates any responsibility of the perpetrator.
            Now go ahead and insult me. Should I be ending my post with a smiley face too? Apparently it improves an argument so much.

          • Liz

            It was stupid and irresponsible of you to do what?

            Drink? No, it’s your legal right, a right people in this country have always had, it’s fun, it’s relaxing, men do it ALL the time. This magazine gives away booze as prizes.

            To accept a lift home? What would you do instead – walk? On our streets? Get a minicab? The ones in which 1000s of rapes occur every year? A black cap? The ones in which women were drugged and raped by a serial attacker? Get picked up by a male family member? Assuming they aren’t one of the group most likely to rape women (husbands and boyfriends), what if you don’t have somebody like that to ask? What if you don’t have a father or a husband, and like men, you work away from home and family?

            To trust men?

          • MrsDBliss

            It IS stupid and irresponsible to get so drunk you are unable to function.
            As I and Damaris have said that doesn’t mitigate the actions of the man involved.
            Adults can differentiate between the two; it’s not victim blaming, it’s being aware that we live in a world where evil exists and taking reasonable precautions against BECAUSE the outcome of being a victim is so awful it is best to avoid it by making yourself unduly vulnerable.

          • Liz

            Oh loosen up. Everyone gets blind drunk from time to time. It’s not a crime. It doesn’t deserve a sentence of rape.

            Rapists CHOOSE to rape. Rape isn’t some dark demonic force stalking the land that women have to be in a constant state of readiness for. If he hadn’t raped her he’d have raped somebody else. There wouldn’t be one less rape.

            You can’t be irresponsible if you’re not responsible for something. Women are not responsible for men’s actions. Men are.

            And seeing as two thirds of rapes are of stone cold sober women, it would be more stupid not to drink.

          • MrsDBliss

            The only victim blaming round here actually comes from you. Apparently I’m not allowed to have an pinion over the responsibility if my past behaviour without being lectured at – so much for modern feminism liberating women. This is exactly why so many young women are rejecting it.
            I would like for you to quote where I implied/said that my behaviour was ‘punished’ by a rape or that I implied in anyway that he was responsible. I actually stated clearly that my behaviour didn’t mitigate any of his actions.
            I would also like you to quote where I said I or anyone else shouldn’t drink. I clearly said it was irresponsible to drink so you can’t function.
            But hey, why argue with what I’ve said when you can just put words in my mouth. Funny, you pretend to be the defender of women yet you demean and misrepresent those who disagree with you in order to prove a point. But if you need to do this you have a very shaky point.

          • Damaris Tighe

            well said

          • Liz

            You said clearly that your actions didn’t mitigate his actions. But you also said you should have taken more responsibility on yourself to prevent his actions. Passing any responsibility from perpetrator to victim is victim-blaming. You had NO responsibility for his choices and his crime. Ergo you can’t be irresponsible by not doing so.

          • MrsDBliss

            I have responsibility for myself and my well being. Not being able to function and express my will in the situation was irresponsible. Your way gives all the power to people who would abuse, my way gives power to me.

          • Liz

            Your way keeps you in a constant state of pre-rape.

            How much responsibility do you take for avoiding terrorists? Do you stop travelling by tube or bus? Do you stop dressing like a westerner?

            What other steps do you take to capitulate to bullies?

            If you couldn’t function you’d already expressed your will. Being able to vocalise it wouldn’t have made a damn bit of difference. Being sober wouldn’t have made a damn bit of difference either. One way or the other he was going to rape somebody, sometime.

            Millions of women drink, flirt, go home with men and don’t get raped. The responsibility lies with him and nobody else for what he did.

          • MrsDBliss

            No, it really doesn’t. I live my life quite happily and do drink, not to excess. That’s the difference between what you’re saying and my ‘capitulating to bullies’. One is a reasonable concession to make to protect myself, the other would be unreasonable.
            Your terrorist scenario is interesting. After all we do go through the airport security checks, but we still go on planes. We all take reasonable precautions against bad people.
            Your second point is incorrect; I didn’t express my will in my state, I was unable to give consent and therefore it was rape. However if I hadn’t been so drunk I’d been able to smack him with something heavy and run away.
            Again I haven’t said the responsibility of his actions lie with me, but it is irresponsible in a world that has bad people to make yourself additionally vulnerable.
            I’m afraid you have to keep twisting what I’ve said in order to prove your point, which kind of shows it’s not a very good one.
            You also appear to hold ‘rape’ in a different class to all other forms of crime as, even after a terrorist attack, one of the first things we ask is ‘what could we do to prevent it happening again’. When we talk about gun control after a massacre we are not blaming the victims – we are considering what we can reasonably do to reduce the amount of victims.
            I think you need to consider what your agenda is.

          • Liz

            Then you aren’t taking enough precautions and you’re still being “irresponsible”.

            We ask as a society what we can do to reduce terrorist attacks, we don’t ask as individuals. My agenda is that rape should be treated in the same way. There is a hell of a lot society and law enforcement could do to reduce rape, none of which it is doing. Instead we rely on potential victims to make amateur haphazard attempts to avoid it happening to themselves – every woman for herself, and a fifth of them fail.

            Were you or were you not responsible for what he did?

            Tell me, if you raped somebody, would you hold them a bit responsible for it?

          • MrsDBliss

            Again, your twisting my words. I don’t hold myself responsible for the rape. I hold. Hold myself responsible for drinking to excess which left me vulnerable.
            I’m afraid Liz that I can see that it is a waste of time talking to you. You are insistent not on honest debate, but on repeatedly twisting my words, stating things I’ve said that I clearly haven’t said.
            I believe you do this because your agenda is not to aid women but to feel superior. You demonstrated that in your earlier comment about deciding to come on this board to regulate what others said. You show a totalitarian nature that I don’t have respect or time for and your vitriol is irrational. If you reply I’m afraid I won’t be responding again as I find it offensive and patronising that you continually twist what I’m saying.

          • Liz

            All kinds of things leave us vulnerable, it’s called living life. Life is risky. If you don’t want risk then just cower away and let the bullies win.

            My agenda is to get women up off their knees and demanding the right to live their lives with a reasonable level of risk, as men do. There is a hell of a lot that can be done to reduce the risk to women of sexual violence, and frightening women into turning down alcohol when their male friends offer isn’t one of them. Two thirds of rape victims are sober!

          • Liz

            We go through security checks to check WE aren’t terrorists. Not to make sure we aren’t terrorist victims. So that potential victims can travel safely and go about their lives. That is the complete opposite of what we do with rape. Nobody is tested for being a potential rapist so that potential victims can live their lives in peace. That should happen, but it doesn’t. Exactly my point.

          • MrsDBliss

            No, we submit ourselves to the checks to remain safe.

          • Liz

            They are checking for perpetrators, not victims! They ban dangerous substances that can be used to harm others, not substances that could make you more vulnerable to harm.

            What checks do rapists submit themselves to?

            Our approach to sexual violence is the opposite of our approach to other forms of terrorising.

          • Damaris Tighe

            As you can see MrsD, the person you sent your post to, getlost, is not interested in answering. She specialises in shouting at & abusing people, not discussing.

          • MrsDBliss

            At least she hasn’t chosen the path of abuse at this time.

            I remember using those arguments when I was younger too. Life teaches you nuance.

    • Liz

      Those “Women: don’t drink or men might rape you” posters produced by the state tell is in the small print that a third of rapes targeted drunk victims. Two thirds didn’t. Ergo: don’t want to be raped? Stay drunk.

  • Liz

    I don’t know why Matthew Parris is talking about a spectrum of giving and receiving consent (whatever that means).

    Mary Jane Mowatt wasn’t talking about alcohol’s effect on consent, she was talking about its effect on being a reliable witness in a trial. She was advising women to remain in a perpetual state of rape readiness or pre-rape in case they are ever called on to give evidence.

  • Liz

    Homosexuals should stay sober in case they have to give evidence of a homophobic attack.
    Are you black? Then just say no when a white friend offers you a drink if you want the conviction for race-hate crimes to climb.
    Disabled? Don’t get drunk or kiss legal protection goodbye.

  • Liz

    “We need to rescue rape in all its horror from dilution by loose definition”

    Don’t keep us in suspense, Matt – what’s the tight definition?

    • whattheflip

      Some, brain-washed feminists preach that all PIV is rape. Going by your comments and your preachy tone, you strike me as someone who would tolerate such a definition?

      • Liz

        I obviously don’t think all “Penis in vagina” sex is rape. Nothing I’ve written could lead you to this conclusion, so I can only assume you were eager to write this comment and hung it off any tentative hook you could find. A very small minority of feminists believe this, but it’s one of those popular tropes of the dishonest MRA movement.

        All penis in vagina, anus or mouth of a male or female without consent, or child, or animal is rape. And when I say consent, I mean consent according to its legal definition.

        It’s really not a tricky concept it is? So beautifully simple in fact. Simple enough for even men to understand and remember, though you’d be amazed by the lengths they go to to make it more complicated and accommodating to their predilections.

        • whattheflip

          Yuck!

        • whattheflip

          “Simple enough for even men to understand and remember”.

          It is nasty, small-minded, bigotted morons such as yourself who give a feminism its reputation as a collective term for delusion and hypocrisy. Enjoy your wasted existence.

          • Liz

            Obviously I was being sarcastic when I said it was simple enough for men to understand and remember, judging from the 88,000 rapes each and every year in the UK alone. Bright sparks they ain’t.

          • whattheflip

            OH! That’s ok then. Were you also being sarcastic when you wrote about men’s predilections for rape? You aren’t being sarcastic, you were being hateful, nasty and vicious, which is typical of the femo-man-hater. I don’t know where you get your figures from but whatever the true figure is, it has NOTHING to do with me and the vast majority of men. Your libellous accusations are cheap and just shows you up for the pathetic, bigoted coward that you are. People like you should concentrate on the real threats facing our society, but you won’t because you would rather try to bully innocent men because it suits your sexist, hating agenda. Shame on you!

          • Damaris Tighe

            Well said.

          • whattheflip

            You’re evidently, not very intelligent either. Bigoted and hateful yes, intelligent? NO! Oh and were you also being “sarcastic” when you talk about men’s “predilections” for rape? That is a plainly abusive comment, typical of the leftie, femo-man-hater. To people like you, it doesn’t matter who the culprit is, just find someone weak to blame. The tactics of a coward.

  • Jackthesmilingblack

    Talk to single women for a bit and they`ll lay it out for you, from best to worst.
    -Regularly being taken out by a gentleman friend, preferably rich, straight, currently unmarried, good-looking, educated, sophisticated. Essentially putting her on stage. Nice personality guy who makes her laugh. Because if you can`t make um laugh, guys you`re out of the evolution race. Kind of a long wish list, so a few compromises are inevitable.
    -Going out in a mixed group. Competition tends to bring out the worst in people.
    -Going out with an all-girl group. A let your hair down evening where you start to look like a bunch of dykes (technical term).
    -Going out alone and risk coming off like a real loser, in fact staying home could be the better option.
    So there you go. Obviously supply and demand play a role, but if she doesn`t put out after three dates… Then ask yourselves, considering the drain on capital, time, mental and physical energy, is the game really worth the candle? Wouldn`t it make more sense to spend the considerable savings on taking yourself “somewheres east of Suez” two or three times a year? I mean when all is said and done, we are talking Brit chicks. Shop-soiled doesn`t come close. Talk about raising their prices in a buyers` market.
    Jack, Japan Alps

    • Liz

      It’s true there are men who see relationships as an outlay in capital in return for sex. These men are known as misogynists.

      • Sasha

        Yes, and there are women who see relationships as an outlay of sex in return for capital. These women are known as ‘gold-diggers’.

        • Liz

          Gold diggers go for rich men, not sad old misogynists who think a night out in a Harvester is the price of a blow job.

      • Jackthesmilingblack

        Try realists.

        • Liz

          No, they’re called sad old misogynists who prefer to stick to brides they can buy online and Thai kids.

        • George Smiley

          Try using proper English, my Japanese troll friend!

      • SexyIsntSexist

        There are women who see relationships as an outlay for resources. It’s called sexual economics. Free access here http://psr.sagepub.com/content/8/4/339.short

        While we’re at it, have a look at The Cultural Suppression of Female Sexuality – by other women! http://www.femininebeauty.info/suppression.pdf

  • Diggery Whiggery

    “The judge, knowing that only 60 per cent of rape charges that reach court end in conviction, was making a narrow point. ”

    Has anyone considered that the other 40% might not have been guilty, or are we pushing for 100%? If we manage it we can skip the need for a trial altogether and save the justice system some money.

    Even in this libertarian age, most sex is between two people and so it comes down to one person’s word against the other unless there are signs of violence or witnesses. I really don ‘t see how we can get to a place where conviction rates ‘improve’ (against what criteria) without severely slanting the justice system to the complainant. It’s already partially the case as the complainant gets anonymity but not the defendant.

    The issue of consent or ‘true consent’ is so blurry and difficult to prove that it’s getting to the point where both men and women should almost sign a contract first to avoid any doubt, which of course is what marriage basically was way back when.

    Today however, we have contraception to avoid mistakes and abortion to erase mistakes so we only need a contract for the act of sex itself, thus avoiding old fashioned concepts such as long term commitment and mutual responsibility etc.

    How about including a small standard contract to sign in every condom packet?

    • Liz

      The legal system is far from perfect. Improvements can be made in the recording of crime, the gathering of evidence, the trial system ( juries and judges need educating, the adversarial system is inappropriate for traumatised witnesses), it’s too prone to witness intimidation.

      And a great deal more could be done to prevent rape occurring in the first place: compulsory sex and relationship education in schools including on consent would be a tremendous start. If Matthew Parris had had the benefit of this he wouldn’t be writing rape-apologia articles for a living.

  • Nice to know the Brits are having the sexual consent issue
    forced into public discourse as we are as pointed out in the piece linked below
    .

    I agree that broadening the definition of rape has the effect of
    trivializing the real thing. As discussed, before the feminists took over the
    issue, rape was classified a capital crime in most us states (meaning the
    rapist was eligible for the death penalty, now banned in UK). Under today’s
    viragos, a nearly equivalent punishment is meted out to college boys for
    doing what comes naturally, including staining their reputations and expulsion
    from school.

    As for the nectar of the gods called into service to break down
    barriers, even married couples often rely on alcohol to ratchet up sex. Perhaps
    if the US returned to practical drinking age restrictions, college students
    would learn to imbibe socially and refrain from binge drinking. Girls
    today are not simply courted with alcohol by horny boys, they drink to excess
    with no coaxing required, putting to pasture the archaic reference in the
    modern argument that boys are seducing innocent girls with alcohol to have
    their way with them as if it was 1955.

    Au contraire. College girls in social situations are quite used
    to managing their own high on their own. Often, they pick who they wish to hook
    up with. It’s afterwards they feel remorse and lay the blame on the pig-brained
    male who never knew what hit him. Let’s face it, the age of the prim maiden student
    went out with the Edsels. And, as men finally learn much too late, they were in
    charge of sex even back then. It’s time to re-jigger the paradigm, as the
    radical professors preach.

    • Liz

      Can you clarify what the real thing is?

  • Here is piece I wrote for US audience on sexual consent dust-up

    http://www.nationalreview.com/phi-beta-cons/386627/have-some-madeira-my-dear-bernie-reeves

    • Liz

      Nothing warms a woman’s heart more than a man telling her how much he can rape her before she’s allowed to call the cops.

    • SexyIsntSexist

      Christina Hoff Sommers debunks the 1 in 5 campus rape stat https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lNsJ1DhqQ-s

  • Liz

    “‘Rape is rape’ serves no one well, least of all rape victims”

    Who else apart from rape victims is it meant to serve?

  • George Smiley

    Note to other commentator: “Jackthesmilingblack” is an attention-seeking Japanese gamer character and troll (with some learning difficulties) coming out of the Japanese 2chan troll site. Replying to his argument would only encourage him to troll more.

    • Damaris Tighe

      There’s not much that can be done about ‘false flag’ commentators. The Spectator is full of them. It’s a hazard of the commentating game – but thanks for pointing out this one.

      I would however like to see the Spectator take action against the libellous posts made on this thread. I’m amazed they’ve been allowed to stand.

      • Jackthesmilingblack

        If you believe the unsupported word of a serial liar and fantasist, namely “George Smiley” (what an unsuitable user name), then more fool you. For some 10 years and literally hundreds of times, this Rochdale based lunatic, has insisted that I’m Japanese (or Korean or Indian…). Obviously I am Caucasian British, born in UK, British passport, but that aside, his compulsive obsessive behaviour doesn’t speak well for his overall mental state. But then he is from Sister Shagging Rochdale.
        So that’s the Spectator for you. Keep the nutter around for laughs. If you want to take sides Dam, you have most decidedly backed the wrong horse. But then perhaps you’re as deranged as him. They do say insanity is contagious.
        Jack, the Japan Alps Brit

        • Damaris Tighe

          Well I don’t know & as you & I rarely if ever convo I don’t really care! I must say your perfect English inclines me to believe you.

        • George Smiley

          Only a foreign idiot playing the Troll (and this one comes from Japan) would think that using a slur more fitting for Norwich and Norfolk to apply it on Rochdale is not daft or naff! He is so British that he can’t even get the Lingo or the banter right!

          This clown calls himself “British”, but he never likes football, and we never hear him mutter a single word about cricket or rugby, because he probably knows nowt, and football is all he knows, and he thinks that he is suddenly all an expert after watching “The Football Factory” and “This is England” a few times)—right. Only a Japanese person (with serious mental-health problems) can possibly think that “Japan Alps” and “Brit” is not both as contradictory and as ridiculous as a Irish-Gaelic-native-speaking Mick with the broadest Connaught calling himself a “Connemara Brit”!

  • Liz

    Watch A Psychologist Tell Us What No One Ever Told Us About Sex Offenders
    http://www.upworthy.com/watch-a-psychologist-tell-us-what-no-one-ever-told-us-about-sex-offenders?c=hpstream

  • Liz

    “but somehow we should accept that there are degrees of consent and non-consent”

    We should? There are? Can you give an example?


    “that there can be contributory folly on a victim’s part”

    Contributory? Can you give an example? Like say raping them first? Poking them with a pointy stick and telling them to rape you until they snap? Or are we talking about being female and enjoying the same rights as a man?

  • Mr B J Mann

    One person here has accused half a dozen people being rapists, one of them several times.

    People they’ve probably never even seen, never mind met!

    Is it any wonder that there are supposedly so many rapists about?

    And why is it surprising so few of them are found guilty?!

    I wonder if “getlost” has also been subjected to sexual experiments on UFOs?

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