The war on Christians

The global persecution of churchgoers is the unreported catastrophe of our time

5 October 2013

9:00 AM

5 October 2013

9:00 AM

Imagine if correspondents in late 1944 had reported the Battle of the Bulge, but without explaining that it was a turning point in the second world war. Or what if finance reporters had told the story of the AIG meltdown in 2008 without adding that it raised questions about derivatives and sub-prime mortgages that could augur a vast financial implosion?

Most people would say that journalists had failed to provide the proper context to understand the news. Yet that’s routinely what media outlets do when it comes to outbreaks of anti-Christian persecution around the world, which is why the global war on Christians remains the greatest story never told of the early 21st century.

In recent days, people around the world have been appalled by images of attacks on churches in Pakistan, where 85 people died when two suicide bombers rushed the Anglican All Saints Church in Peshawar, and in Kenya, where an assault on a Catholic church in Wajir left one dead and two injured.

Those atrocities are indeed appalling, but they cannot truly be understood without being seen as small pieces of a much larger narrative. Consider three points about the landscape of anti-Christian persecution today, as shocking as they are generally unknown. According to the International Society for Human Rights, a secular observatory based in Frankfurt, Germany, 80 per cent of all acts of religious discrimination in the world today are directed at Christians. Statistically speaking, that makes Christians by far the most persecuted religious body on the planet.

According to the Pew Forum, between 2006 and 2010 Christians faced some form of discrimination, either de jure or de facto, in a staggering total of 139 nations, which is almost three-quarters of all the countries on earth. According to the Center for the Study of Global Christianity at Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary in Massachusetts, an average of 100,000 Christians have been killed in what the centre calls a ‘situation of witness’ each year for the past decade. That works out to 11 Christians killed somewhere in the world every hour, seven days a week and 365 days a year, for reasons related to their faith.

In effect, the world is witnessing the rise of an entire new generation of Christian martyrs. The carnage is occurring on such a vast scale that it represents not only the most dramatic Christian story of our time, but arguably the premier human rights challenge of this era as well.

To put flesh and blood on those statistics, all one has to do is look around. In Baghdad, Islamic militants stormed the Syriac Catholic cathedral of Our Lady of Salvation on 31 October 2010, killing the two priests celebrating Mass and leaving a total of 58 people dead. Though shocking, the assault was far from unprecedented; of the 65 Christian churches in Baghdad, 40 have been bombed at least once since the beginning of the 2003 US-led invasion.

The effect of this campaign of violence and intimidation has been devastating for Christianity in the country. At the time of the first Gulf War in 1991, Iraq boasted a flourishing Christian population of at least 1.5 million. Today the high-end estimate for the number of Christians left is around 500,000, and realistically many believe it could be as low as 150,000. Most of these Iraqi Christians have gone into exile, but a staggering number have been killed.

India’s northeastern state of Orissa was the scene of the most violent anti-Christian pogrom of the early 21st century. In 2008, a series of riots ended with as many as 500 Christians killed, many hacked to death by machete-wielding Hindu radicals; thousands more were injured and at least 50,000 left homeless. Many Christians fled to hastily prepared displacement camps, where some languished for two years or more.

An estimated 5,000 Christian homes, along with 350 churches and schools, were destroyed. A Catholic nun, Sister Meena Barwa, was raped during the mayhem, then marched naked and beaten. Police sympathetic to the radicals discouraged the nun from filing a report, and declined to arrest her attackers.

In Burma, members of the Chin and Karen ethnic groups, who are strongly Christian, are considered dissidents by the regime and routinely subjected to imprisonment, torture, forced labour, and murder. In October 2010, the Burmese military launched helicopter strikes in territories where the country’s Christians are concentrated.

A Burmese Air Force source told reporters that the junta had declared these areas ‘black zones’, where military personnel were authorised to attack and kill Christian targets on sight. Though there are no precise counts, thousands of Burmese Christians are believed to have been killed in the offensive.

In Nigeria, the militant Islamic movement ‘Boko Haram’ is held responsible for almost 3,000 deaths since 2009, including 800 fatalities last year alone. The movement has made a speciality out of targeting Christians and their churches, and in some cases they seem determined to drive Christians out altogether from parts of the country.

In December 2011, local Boko Haram spokesmen announced that all Christians in the northern Yobe and Borno states had three days to get out, and followed up with a spate of church bombings on 5 and 6 January 2012, which left at least 26 Christians dead, as well as two separate shooting sprees in which eight more Christians died. In the aftermath, hundreds of Christians fled the area, and many are still displaced. Over Christmas last year, at least 15 Christians are believed to have had their throats cut by Boko Haram assailants.

North Korea is widely considered the most dangerous place in the world to be a Christian, where roughly a quarter of the country’s 200,000 to 400,000 Christians are believed to be living in forced labour camps for their refusal to join the national cult around founder Kim Il Sung. The anti-Christian animus is so strong that people with Christian grandparents are frozen out of the most important jobs — even though Kim Il Sung’s mother was a Presbyterian deaconess. Since the armistice in 1953 that stabilised the division of the peninsula, some 300,000 Christians in North Korea have disappeared and are presumed dead.

As these examples illustrate, anti-Christian violence is hardly limited to a ‘clash of civilisations’ between Christianity and Islam. In truth, Christians face a bewildering variety of threats, with no single enemy and no single strategy best adapted to curb the violence.

Though fellow believers in the West may have special reason for feeling concern, the reality is that no confessional convictions at all are required to justify alarm over this rising tide of anti-Christian animus.

Because the bulk of the globe’s 2.3 billion Christians today are impoverished and live in the developing world, and because they are often members of ethnic, cultural and linguistic minorities, experts regard their treatment as a reliable indicator of a society’s broader record on human rights and dignity. Just as one didn’t have to be Jewish in the 1970s to care about dissident Jews in the Soviet Union, nor black in the 1980s to be outraged by the Apartheid regime in South Africa, one doesn’t have to be Christian today to see the defence of persecuted Christians as a towering priority.

Why are the dimensions of this global war so often overlooked? Aside from the root fact that the victims are largely non-white and poor, and thus not considered ‘newsmakers’ in the classic sense, and that they tend to live and die well off the radar screen of western attention, the global war also runs up against the outdated stereotype of Christianity as the oppressor rather than the oppressed.

Say ‘religious persecution’ to most makers of cultured secular opinion, and they will think of the Crusades, the Inquisition, Bruno and Galileo, the Wars of Religion and the Salem witch trials. Today, however, we do not live on the pages of a Dan Brown potboiler, in which Christians are dispatching mad assassins to settle historical scores. Instead, they’re the ones fleeing assassins others have dispatched.

Moreover, public discussion of religious freedom issues often suffers from two sets of blinders. First, it’s generally phrased in terms of western church/state tensions, such as the recent tug-of-war between religious leaders in the United States and the Obama White House over contraception mandates as part of health care reform, or tensions in the United Kingdom over the 2010 Equality Act and its implications for church-affiliated adoption agencies vis-à-vis same-sex couples. The truth is that in the West, a threat to religious freedom means someone might get sued; in many other parts of the world, it means someone might get shot, and surely the latter is the more dramatic scenario.

Secondly, discussion is sometimes limited by an overly narrow conception of what constitutes ‘religious violence’. If a female catechist is killed in the Democratic Republic of Congo, for instance, because she’s persuading young people to stay out of militias and criminal gangs, one might say that’s a tragedy but not martyrdom, because her assailants weren’t driven by hatred of the Christian faith. Yet the crucial point isn’t just what was in the mind of her killers, but what was in the heart of that catechist, who knowingly put her life on the line to serve the gospel. To make her attackers’ motives the only test, rather than her own, is to distort reality.

Whatever the motives for the silence, it’s well past time for it to end. Pope Francis recognised this in remarks during a General Audience last month.

‘When I hear that so many Christians in the world are suffering, am I indifferent, or is it as if a member of my own family is suffering?’ the Pope asked his following. ‘Am I open to that brother or that sister in my family who’s giving his or her life for Jesus Christ?’

In 2011, the Catholic Patriarch of Jerusalem, Fouad Twal, who leads a church with more than its fair share of new martyrs, phrased the same questions more plaintively during a conference in London. He bluntly asked: ‘Does anybody hear our cry? How many atrocities must we endure before somebody, somewhere, comes to our aid?’

There may be no question about the destiny of Christianity in the early 21st century more deserving of a compelling answer.

Got something to add? Join the discussion and comment below.

John L. Allen Jr is author of The Global War on Christians: Dispatches from the Front Lines of Anti-Christian Persecution.

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Show comments
  • The caption reads, “The global persecution of Christians is the unreported catastrophe of our time”

    That’s because it is the West for some inexplicable reason that is placing into power “Islamist” clients who then go about persecuting Christians.

    • Bonkim

      Christians have been persecuting others for centuries, time the tables were turned.

      • Robert Mitchum

        You advocate the persecution of Christians? I am truly glad I do not inhabit your skin or have my thought processes governed by your brain.

        • Bonkim

          why should you expect others to be in your mould? I don’t expect you to be in mine.

          • AffanGul

            Thank you for small favors

      • Keith D

        What a disgusting comment

        • Bonkim

          No different from your call to a new Crusade – millions are getting killed in many lands from ethnic and sectarian conflicts – not just Christians.

      • Pootles

        Do you recommend any particular type of persecution – beheading, stoning, acid? Or ‘just’ bombing, like in Peshawar, or burning and destroying churches, as in Egypt and Syria? Interestingly, the Christians of Syria, Iraq, and Pakistan have never persecuted anyone. In fact, almost all Pakistani Christians are stunningly poor, and that in a country that has much than its fair share of poverty. Your comment, by the way, must rank as one of the most nauseous to have appeared on the Speccie’s website – well done.

        • Bonkim

          All religions are superstitions and no one is condoning killing innocent Christians or Muslims or others – simply that political reality that minorities are persecuted all over the world – Christendom persecuted Jews and Muslims, and others for centuries and now the tables are turned as the nominally Christian Empires have collapsed and their supremacy is weakening. Christian missionaries have conned ignorant populations across the world to convert to their brand of superstition – and as you say Islamic bigots are forcibly converting others to their creed.

          If you go back a little in history and the Catholic Church and its treatment/massacres and forced conversions in the Spanish and Portuguese Empires – you will understand that man has always used religion as a pretext for barbarity.

          So Christians are naturally persecuted in Islamic lands as Islam believes in a world inhabited by Muslims – however crazy it is – and all religions are crazy.

          • Pootles

            This is, of course, not what you said in your original post. What you said was ‘time the tables were turned’ – with its clear implication that you were glad to see ‘the tables turned’. Either you need to be clearer in your posting, or you need to apologise for that post.

          • Bonkim

            Not going to argue over the toss – makes no difference to me who the victims are in such sectarian spats that have been going since early man. Tables turned or the boot on the other foot – history repeats itself. No apologies and you are obviously a bigot giving importance to your own viewpoint. I don’t take sides – commenting on what I see – a total hypocrisy. Britain and modern states don’t go to war to save religions.

          • Pootles

            What? Why am I ‘obviously a bigot’ ? And you are obviously unable to address the fact that your original post very strongly suggested that you were quite happy to see the Christians persecuted. However, I hadn’t realised that you are some kind of god-man, an Olympian who sits above the feeble doings of mankind.

          • Bonkim

            Now you know.

          • Pootles

            I’m honoured to have been insulted by such a great one.

          • Robert Mitchum

            Pootles (and others) please do not get involved in spats with such a person. Let us keep our minds on far more important issues – like this article and what it describes.

            You should starve a noxious weed of nutrients, not feed it.

          • Icebow

            Quite so.

          • Your ability to hurl insults doesn’t prove that you know anything.

          • Bonkim

            I don’t have to prove anything to anyone – just comment on the report – not pick on others’ comment.

          • Since early man? Assyria was clearly not an empire that was established because of religious differences. The same is true of the Empires of Alexander and of the Romans. Britain did not come to dominate India in order to Christianize its people. No, modern states like Britain do not go to war to save Christianity or to spread it, but given all the BS about human rights that liberals pout, they might give a thought about the injustice of it all.

          • Bonkim

            Religion although not the main reason played an important part in all Empires – to legitimize, regulate behaviour and to provide support – and the conquered people usually adopted the incoming religions either they were forced into or because they saw some advantage/protection in doing so. Same in Europe through history. Missionaries went out to the far corners of Empire and were in some way protected by the ruling classes. Same in Islamic Empires. The butchery was most violent in Spanish America.

            Spouting human rights – you can only control what happens within territory and amongst people you are in control of – Christians are spread out far and wide and as the report says – many are in the lower rungs of society living amongst poor and exploited there. Very little the British and US can do in such circumstances. Converts are also seen as agents of foreign powers, and missionaries and conversions are banned in many countries and missionaries often break the law, The situation in Orissa India arose because of the activities of Australian missionaries that the locals resented. You can say this is how localism works in many parts of the world as people are surrounded by uncertainty, poverty and exploitation and violence and persecution of perceived outsiders their only way out. they just don’t have the luxury of being able to think detached from their daily grind and exercise liberal tolerance that you and I have.

            See the parallels with the rise of the Golden Dawn and killings of immigrants and asylum seekers in Greece where people are faced with great uncertainties and that their way of life is threatened by aliens from outside.

          • AffanGul

            It makes no difference to you? Certainly it would make a difference to you if it were smug, amoral, atheist hypocrites instead of “religious” hypocrites being oppressed and murdered, wouldn’t it? Hypocrites who live in glass houses shouldn’t toss accusations of hypocrisy around so lightly. After all “secular” atheists are responsible for the biggest and most monstrous mass murder genocides of the 20th Century, ergo, in all of History. But of course the smug, amoral, atheist secularists of our time bear no responsibility, eh? Your fig leaf is inadequate to mask your everlasting shame.

          • Bonkim

            AffanGul – people will kill each other wherever they face opposition to their strategic or commercial interests – nothing to do with religion – but religion, and ethnic/social flags come in handy to gather together and march on the rampage – was it any different for the Seljuk Turks or other branches of the Central Asian tribes that expanded into all parts of Asia and parts of Europe in the Middle-ages and around the mediterranian?

            Most conflicts through the ages had some connection with ethnicity, religion or sect, three main determinants of tribal affinity and of course territorial familiarity. Secularists don’t need to hide behind any cover to act – they are rational and often take advantage of the weaknesses inherent in tribal or sectarian loyalties. Apart from that not clear what you are driving at and which secular group you are pointing your finger at – is it Kemal Ataturk who pulled Turky from the deep mess it was in after WW1 and are you suggesting that a return to fundamental Islam would be good for Turkey?

          • This is the same rhetoric used by radicals since the French Revolution to persecute Christians, to slaughter those who resist the doctrines of the Enlightenment.

          • Bonkim

            Yes the same logic the Catholic Church/inquisition imposed on natives being burnt alive – to recant their sins. Enlightenment is interpreted by those who believe in the one showing the light. To others it is blind belief.

          • For Christians the burning of witches and heretics is an abberant behavior just as the bombing of Hiroshima is an abberation of a democratic nation. The human sacrifices by the Aztecs and by the priests of Baal were a normal part of their worship. The Conquistadores, accustomed though they were to the cruelty of the wars with the Moors, and including men like Guzman, were as shocked by those sacrifices as the American troops were by the German concentration camps. Human perversity can take many forms, but sometimes the light shines through. Cabeza de Vaca, who began as an ordinary, even brutal Spanish soldier, was transformed by his experiences and returned to Spanish society as the protector of indians from men who were the likes of him at the start ofd his long journey.

          • Bonkim

            I suppose we can rationalize on past crimes – wasteful discussion justifying the past one way or the other.

          • Reasonforall

            Practically everything that allows you to participate in this online debate right now was brought to you by science, not religion. Science as well as liberal democracy are products of the Enlightenment. Antibiotics and vaccines (science!) saved the lives of hundreds of millions worldwide during the course of the 20th century. Why didn’t religion create these life-giving treatments? Science was a major factor in the doubling of life expectancy from 1900 to 2000. Prior to the great advances of science, we humans – when we weren’t dying from warfare or infectious diseases – regularly died from hunger and malnutrition. Scientists, not angels in the sky, have developed modern agriculture technologies that for the first time in human history allow us to feed the entire world (starvation/malnutrition still occurs today because of broken politics not insufficient food supplies). I could go on and on and on about the measurable achievements of Enlightenment ideas and practices – i.e., genuine human progress without supernatural intermediaries – but it’ll make no difference to most people still pining for the Dark Ages.

          • Science is a word than comes from the Latin word for “to know.” You imply that the only way to know is by what we call “modern science,” because it certainly did not spring out from nothing in the year 1600. Since one cannot “know” a human person through “the scientific method,” the claim by Popper and others that this is the only means of knowing, or knowing “certainly,” is itself a leap of faith. Dick Feynmann points out somewhere that one cannot reduced everything to a set of differential equations. Math itself, the foundation of modern science, is a kind of mysterious thing. Is it –to extend the claims of the pythagoeans– the only existent thing, or is it just as tool invented by the mind, as Newton invented the calculus to further his research? Now, as to religion, that you have to define before you can so blithely drive it from the stage of human life. For Christians and others for that matter, religion is about matters important to human beings that cannot be reduced to measurement. Death, for instance. And life, which death ends, or seems to end. Whether it ends of not is something people wonder about. Even people who want to die wonder about the possibility of their surviving it, because it involves also the end of society, of the human relationships that make up that society. Even scientists , qua scientists, cannot ignore the plain fact that religious is something human, it is the human effort to answer questions that cannot be answered by measurement, by propositions based on measurent, or even through the means of discourse we call philosophy.

          • jaybird1951

            I am curious about this Christian persecution of Muslims charge. Aside from Spain after the Reconquista, I can’t think of a single place on Earth where Christians were ever in a position to harm Muslims from a position of power. It has always been pretty much the other way around. Even when colonial powers conquered a Muslim country, they did not persecute the Muslim inhabitants. The Crusades don’t count as persecution since they were a military expedition to reopen the way to the shrines in the Holy Land and keep them open. Muslims were no persecuted by the Crusader kingdom and were allowed religious freedom (believe it or not).

          • Bonkim

            Yes not many places in the world left now with Christian majority that persecute Muslims and others – but look up Phillippines. Crusades aere wars – more plunder and pillage along the way – Christians on Christians – and at the time the Islamic Empires were on the ascendancy and persecuting all others. My point was religions – all religions when in a majority persecute/discriminate against others that are a minority. The North and South spat in Nigeria for example is Christian/Muslim following on from the Biafran civil war and Muslims (now Boko Haram) wishing to establish Sharia ruled territory. The break up of Empires left pockets of Christianity in places where now they are a minority and persecuted – that is how religious persecution works – I am not taking sides simply pointing to reality. Historically political Christianity has committed many atrocities only since the reformation the links between religion and the state had weakened and after WW2 and the new order more or less gone – but most of the world particularly Islamic countries are still living in the Middle-ages and one should not expect the same standards there as we do in the West.

            Both Christianity and Islam are conversion religions and the zeal/bigotry of the converted religions stronger. Similar situation in Europe a thousand years back when various brands of Christianity were spread often forcibly and through wars and conquests on the local people.

          • The Christians in Iraq, Syria and Lebanon have been there since the time of Christ. China had “pockets” of Christians, a few million , in 1949, but today has maybe 100 million Christians who are tolerated but oppressed by the Communist government. It is growing despite all this discouragement. It is growing in Africa even paster than Islam. Where it is not growing is in the West, where the Establishment has abandoned Christianity and secularized its institutions.

          • Bonkim

            Good! that is why the West has progressed. Tyranny of the Church was no different from the tyranny of the rich and powerful war-lords.

            Christianity in Asia, and Africa gave the poor and exploited underclass a sense of belonging and hope, not unlike that from adopting communism or Nazism.

            It also brought economic benefits; these societies were/still are pretty exploitative, and corrupt. Many in such societies have also converted to Islam – as both Christianity and Islam profess equality and brotherhood of man, and one nation before God whereas non-Christian religions have deep-seated class and privileges based on birth.

            I have nothing against any religion – all as good or nasty as made up by those who profess heir religion in battle or exploit others.

          • We have “progressed” to tyranny by elected politicians who are not bishops, or princes. This is progress? Barack Obama has far more power than Ghengis Khan.

          • Bonkim

            Power from the people. Pity Obama did not use his power to get rid of Assad – he did today mounting missions against Islamic terrorists in Libya and Somalia – hope he succeeds. Personally would carpet-bomb the whole of the Somali coast and the pirate-strongholds.

          • Bonkim

            Persecution increases ones capacity – tell a child it is wrong to smoke and it will. Converts are more zealous than those that were born into a religion – any religion. Christianity is dead in the west – and rightly so as it has gone beyond its sell by date. – Rational man does not need God – Christian, Muslim or any other and it is usually the weak-brained that cling to religion to find find answers to their unknowns.

          • Noe you are descending to liberal clap-trap. Persecution is what the men to do bend the will of others to their own. A religious person may or many not be more desirous of doing this than a non-relgious person. One must take each case as it comes. Each man’s reason is founded on certain premises. Who is more likely to be a killer of other men, a sincere Christian or an atheist? It depends on all he believes to be the truth, not just some propositions. But somethings are foundational and more determinative of a person’s actions. Francis of Asissi was a most sincere and orthodox Christian; Lenin was a most sincere and “orthodox” Marxists. Who was more likely to wan to kill other men?

          • Bonkim

            the zealot in either case to establish supremacy and to eradicate enemies as they see fit. Having see life in the US (land of Freedom) and Eastern Europe behind the iron curtain – those in Eastern Europe were more educated, cultured, egalitarian, and happier. US was still lynching blacks – despite all the tele-evangelists.

            Christian Europe = genocide of native peoples in the New world, and Australia, etc. as said before religion does not always equate to truth and justice.

            and many Christians and Jews now in the US were fleeing religious persecution by their fellow Christians in Europe.

          • Reasonforall

            Christianity is nowhere near death in the good ol’ USA.

          • tolpuddle1

            Now that Christianity has lost its power, it’s reverting to the goodness of its founder, Jesus Messiah.

            Now that Islam is powerful, it’s reverting to the bloodstained methods of its founder, Mohammed.

            Jesus accepted the Cross; Mohammed seized the sword.

            All religions are NOT the same.

          • Bonkim

            By the fruit you will recognize the tree I suppose. Good luck and keep the righteous path – don’t engage in politics of the devil – and remember all vengeance is Gods.

          • Reasonforall

            How any enlightened being can worship a vengeful god is beyond my ken.

          • Bonkim

            Jehovah the God of hosts – be jealous of your faith – and those who worship false Gods will face the final judgement. A threat God-fearing beings – Christians or Muslims dare not disobey.

          • Reasonforall

            You are wasting your limited time here in this magnificent universe by living in the shadow of fear.

          • Bonkim

            Who is afraid of Jehovah? and for the magnificent universe depending on where you are – it is grossly overcrowded and populations exploding. Water, land, energy and mineral resources depleting fast, economy base on continued expansion and consumption – so Jehovah the Lord of hosts will surely destroy all – Christian persecution or not or whether you are a believer or not.

          • But a god who did the impossible: he purposely died a cross for the sake of mankind.

          • Bonkim

            Look a little deeper into your religion – Jesus is not God, and he did not die on the cross – Stauros means a stake. The cross is a made up job -good PR. and Jesus himself asked his followers to worship idols and imagery.

            Much of Church and popular Christianity is a con-game invention of a blind Church to dazzle the ignorant at a time most were illiterate and ignorant – no different from those forcing Islam on the ignorant people today.

          • Margaret

            You are wrong about the cross being a stake, Bonkim, as you are wrong about everything to do with Christianity. True, stauros did mean a stake in classical Greek, but by the time of Christ it had meant for about 300 hundred years the kind of cross on which Jesus was crucified. Words change their meanings you know, even in ancient languages.

          • Bonkim

            Hello Margaret, Nothing right or wrong in faith – both you and I were not there or witness to the evolution of Christianity and adaptation of the symbols, feasts, and othet trappings of so called Christianity that has evolved over the centuries and also in the cultural contexts of the locations where it evolved.

            There are many interpretaions I am sure – but there is strong historic evidence that Christianity, and also other religions borrowed from popular mythology and prevailing cultural practices as they went along. One example:

            “The Cross, an Aryan and not a Christian Symbol

            It is time now to explode the myth that the Cross is a Christian symbol. Like much of the outward trappings of Christianity the Cross is an importation from Aryan solar mythology.

            Acharya S writing in her Suns of God Krishna Buddha and Christ Unveiled discusses on page 257 of her book: “As the Catholic Encyclopedia points out, Christ was not represented in iconography until the 6th-7th centuries CE. CE further relates that even though[according to legend] the Emperor Constantine supposedly instituted the “outline of the `chrisme`, ie., the “Greek monogram of Christ”, chi-rho, the image of Christ crucified was at that time “a Christian emblem…as yet practically unknown.” The “chi-rho”[X + P] itself resembles a human cruciform, as CE implies, and examples of it may be found in ancient masons` marks, such as at the palace of Phaestos on Crete, dating from the third millenium BCE.”
            The crucifix according to the archaeological record is a late Christian development borrowed from Aryan mythology.
            The Romans worshipped their crucified Sol on the 25th of December:”

            Many symbolisms in Catholic brand of Christianity are pagan – Mother and Child, Holy Mary, Easter, Christmas, etc, etc, the Catholic Bible contains many non-standard texts apocrypha that were inserted from prevailing mythology, and in any case the Bible was not written down for two or more centuries after Christ’s death and long after any eye witnesses to testify the shape or construct of the device. Gehenna was place where they executed criminals and difficult to imagine the authorities will go the great length to construct an artistically designed cross to execute a criminal. They would stake him on any thing they could erect which would be stumps of trees.

            Anyway arguing who is wrong or right is totally inappropriate – and at the same time you have every right to believe in your symbolism – as I have of looking at such things in a sceptical manner.

          • Inane Rambler

            You are a contemptible little slug trying to justify your disgust for Christians under persecution.

          • suibhne

            A stake or the upright post of a cross. It was used for both purposes at the time. But the shape of the gibbet is irrelevant to an execution.

          • Bonkim

            Quite so – the cross was a symbol introduced later into Christianity – carry over of pre-Christian symbol – and true Christians don’t worship idols, and imagery.

          • crosscop

            All gods do the impossible – that’s why they’re gods.

          • Reasonforall

            Tautology is not a persuasive response.

          • Reasonforall

            Never understood the “cross.” And the idea of The Creator of this Unbelievably Huge Universe – the size of which reduces our galaxy, let alone our humanity, to something less than nothing – that that Creator somehow became flesh-and-blood here in this darkest of corners of the universe. What a small god, indeed.

          • Fergus Pickering

            Your ken doesn’t extend very fr then. Give thanks to God that you have never suffered persecution and that your children have never had their throats cut in front of you..

          • Reasonforall

            How can you assume that I have not? Do you read minds?

            Oh, and what kind of a god allows his followers to be persecuted and innocent children to be brutalized so?

          • crosscop

            “Oh, and what kind of a god allows his followers to be persecuted and innocent children to be brutalized so?”

            Allah? According to Islam, nothing happens – good or bad – without Allah’s consent. He even decides who accepts or rejects Islam, too – there is no free will according to Islam. So, after making the decision to make some people reject Islam by “blocking their ears,” good old Allah burns them in hellfire for all eternity… for rejecting Islam. Allah the Merciful, eh? What a nice god he is.

          • Reasonforall

            Your rage prevents you from making persuasive arguments based on facts. The “problem of evil” is a longstanding question in religion and philosophy. Educate yourself a bit.

            Allah in Islam is the God of Abraham, Moses, David, Jesus, Muhammed, et al., A primary source of the Quran is the Old Testament. If you had read both books, it would be obvious that one book borrows quite a lot from the other. Is the god of the Old Testament any less vicious than the Allah you describe above? Hardly.

          • Margaret

            Allah is NOT the same as the God of Judaism and Christianity, but I don’t expect an atheist to accept that fact. As for the Koran being derived from the Bible, it does contain twisted, mutilated versions of some stories, and yes, I have read both books.

          • Reasonforall

            You and I clearly have not read the same books. As for which “facts” I accept or not, the lady doth presume too much, methinks.

          • crosscop

            I have read both books and I agree – Jehovah is hardly less vicious. But nobody takes the Bible’s bloodthirsty, barbaric passages as instructions on how to behave, do they? However, all too many devout Muslims do take the Koran’s bloodthirsty instructions to heart and act accordingly – as Lee Rigby found out.
            BTW – Allah is arguably not the same god as Jehovah. He was just one of 360 pagan Arab gods worshipped in Mecca before Mohammad chose him to be the One God and invented the story of Abraham visiting Mecca to give his new religion a bit of background. (The idea is as fanciful as the tale about Jesus going to Glastonbury). The Arab pagan Allah had a wife and daughters – who are at the centre of the Satanic Verses (not the novel) controversy. I have heard it argued that Allah is no more the god of Abraham than Zeus or Odin are.

          • Reasonforall

            So your God is real and has a basis in reality and Allah doesn’t? It’s all middle eastern mythologizing and one hopes that some day (soon) our children will be studying the stories of the Abrahamic faiths along with stories of Greek Gods, Hindu Gods, Nordic Gods, Roman Gods, etc…

          • crosscop

            My god? I am an atheist. There are no gods. Apart from Thor, of course – I saw him in the Avengers film.

          • suibhne

            As a Christian and a monotheist, I would have said that of course God is God, whatever his/her/its worshippers perceive it as. In the sacrifice of Odin as told in the Thrimsvitha (I think), 9 days on the world tree, himself to himself until ‘the runes seized [him]’, there is of course a certain parallel with the crucufixion. Beyond that, though, there’s a human reponse to a religious experience, interpreted in the culture and faith system in which the person experienced it. Even the purest experience of the divine is filtered through the beliefs, language, concepts, education and so on of the individual.

            Certainly the Abrahamic faiths have widely differing interpretations of the divine, but that does not invalidate the commonality of our shared heritage and shared (one) deity.

          • suibhne

            Thrimskvitha sorry

          • Inane Rambler

            You entirely missed the point. If Christians believe in free will, and with the exception of Calvinists they generally do, then God cannot prevent suffering, as that interferes with free will.

            People have the will to inflict harm on others, the capability. Theologically, that cannot be prevented. If you are too ignorant to understand it then don’t critique it.

            One doesn’t have to believe in God to understand the theology, and if you’re going to make a bad argument against God, you are not doing anyone a service, nor are you using reason.

          • Who says that God is vengeful? John said God is love.

          • crosscop

            Vengeance is mine, sayeth the Lord. I think he was pretty vengeful when he drowned all those Egyptian squaddies and turned people into pillars of salt just for being gay.

          • Reasonforall

            Many of those who have been on the receiving end of Christianity’s beneficence – such as, to name just one obvious case, the native peoples of the Americas – may beg to differ. I have many more recent examples (e.g., the Catholic Church’s complicity in the Rwandan genocide, the Eastern Orthodox Church’s complicity in the mass murder of nonSerbs in the former-YU, etc…) of Christian folks going back to the goodness of Jesus.

            Further, the idea that Christianity has lost its power is utter nonsense. You are either willingfully ignorant or dangerously naive.

          • tolpuddle1

            Few would claim that the Conquistadors were sincere Christians. And the bible-punching Puritans who conquered North America always put land and money (not God) first.

            Rwanda – some Catholic clergy and laypeople were complicit; the Church wasn’t or are you saying that the Vatican was involved ?

            You choose to forget that all the victims were also Catholic; and that some Hutu Catholics suffered martyrdom trying to prevent the massacres.

            Christian is, as Christian does.

            Christianity HAS lost its political power and (in the West) even its social and cultural power. There are almost no places on earth (excepting, perhaps Malta, Poland, the Philipines) which can now reasonably be described as Christian, as all of Europe could in past days (even the 1950’s).

            Where I fear you are dangerously naive is in imagining that the West will continue in existence now that it has lost its Christian foundations. It will cease to exist either through Islamisation or total collapse. Since the Millennium, this has already started to happen.

          • Reasonforall

            You sound very fearful. A large dose of critical thinking and a science course or two might put you at ease.

          • tolpuddle1

            Anyone who isn’t very fearful in the current world situation – or in the current state of the UK for that matter – is, very clearly, an imbecile.
            Anyone who thinks a reasonable fearfulness can be counteracted by “a science course or two” is very clearly (how can I put this politely?) an optimist; Science (scientia, knowledge) cannot solve the problems of the world, since these are at root caused by the problems within human nature, the diseases that afflict all individual human souls.

            Science cannot heal a wounded soul or convert an evil soul or give anyone a reason to be hopeful (since Knowledge cannot heal the world), let alone good. Science cannot provide a code of morality or advise people how to tackle life or even give them a reason to remain alive – the tragic case of the late Tony Nicklinson (a convinced atheist) is a case in point, though many people in modern Britain are tempted to suicide (sometimes fatally) simply because they can no longer see any point in bothering to live. (and in an aimless, secular place like today’s Britain who can blame them?).

            Hitler’s Germany and Stalin’s USSR were advanced, modernising, scientific societies refreshingly free of religious belief – yet monstrously cruel.
            The root of your error is a political one – you imagine that the West will continue its trajectory of the last three centuries and thus become increasingly secular, scientific and, above all, prosperous, since without affluence (or the hope of affluence) a secular and scientific society cannot hope to survive.

            But empires fall as well as rise – anyone can see the West is decadent and increasingly impotent; it counts for less and less in the world. Before there are unstoppable reasons – demographic, social, economic – why the West itself will cease to be “Western.” No second Enlightenment can occur – we’re not living in 1713, but going down the other side of the hill (with increasing speed !).

            You recommend “critical thinking”, but as someone who has done little else but think critically the last 40+ years, I have become exceedingly critical of the Accepted Wisdom (atheism, secularity, scientism etc) advocated by people such as yourself – I consider this “wisdom” to be cruel and stupid beyond belief, both in the personal field and socially.

            Fortunately, it is doomed. Deo Gratias. All wickedness fails.

            Fear – in myself and my fellow Christians – is overcome by hope. We scent the wounds of our adversary and sniff its forthcoming death on the breeze.

            Our remaining foe will be Islam – but there, only God can help us.

          • Reasonforall

            You live on “hope” yet simultaneously criticize “optimism.” Hope is surely a form of optimism. Your 40 years of critical thinking clearly have not served you well – nor have your religious beliefs. You remain petrified, resentful, and angry. I recommend opening up your heart and mind, and perhaps you may find in every living person something, perhaps a trifle, that reflects our common humanity.

          • tolpuddle1

            I fear you are confusing hope with hopefulness, i.e. optimism.

            As the poet Ruth Pitter wrote, in a real crisis, “All but divine and desperate hopes go down.” This is true not only of individual crises (terminal illness, addictions, a long prison-stretch), but also of national crises. It was divine and desperate hope that kept Churchill and the British people going in 1940/1 when – by any sane calculation – Hitler was bound to win (as the American think tanks and wise men of the time constantly pointed out).

            After a great evil of the world has been defeated, “there is a respite, then the Shadow grows again.”

            We are now again in a world as evil – though in a subtler, less visible way – than that of 1931 (Japanese invasion of Manchuria, starting WW2) to 1945. This time the evil is not in politics, but in the hearts of individuals, thinly covered and held in check by legal and social constraints. When crisis comes, as it always does (and it will do so shortly, if you believe “Money Weekly”!) we shall see what we shall see; in such situations it is no longer possible to hedge one’s bets or be Mr Average Nice Guy – people choose within their own hearts to line up for Good or for Evil, there no longer being any middle ground. In many ways, Britain and America are much worse off than in 1939, because of the collapse of their family life, their industrial power, their infrastructure, their morale, now being populated mainly by selfish and decadent people pitifully unprepared for hardship (unlike the people of the Thirties). And in saying all this, I’m not being self-righteous, since I recognise only too clearly the above symptoms in myself.

            Clearly, only an imbecile or an ostrich would not feel apprehensive given the above situation, which is not merely my own analysis but that of many others. I pray that I may become a much better person and Christian than I have been in the past, and thus capable of facing the practical challenges ahead – and of lining up with the good and generous, rather than the selfish and evil. But I’m not petrified; merely braced.

            It is my Christian duty not to remain angry with individuals; but I have a perfect right to feel anger against all the atheist and semi-atheist ideas that have conquered the West since about 1700 and in particular since 1963. Atheism in particular, I regard as crueller and more horrifying than Nazism; the latter seeks to destroy only people’s bodies, but Atheism seeks to deny (and thus for everyday practical purposes, to destroy) people’s immortal souls – and thus destroy any REAL possibility whatsoever of human hope (look around Britain 2013 if you doubt me). Though, as Pope Francis recently pointed out, individual atheists and non-believers are not denied God’s grace and may thus be good people.

            My religious beliefs have served me extraordinarily well – they have enabled me, so far, to live over thirty years longer than I could otherwise possibly have imagined. In Britain, such an experience is the exception rather than the rule (though becoming more common as the UK implodes, socially and economically; don’t trust the Bernanke Boom!). Among the Poor of the world, there are of course very few people who would last a day without religious faith.

          • Reasonforall

            The only interesting point you make is the last line: “Among the Poor of the world, there are of course very few people who would last a day without religious faith.” If you and other Christians truly lived in according with the precepts of the Jesus described in the New Testament, then one wonders why poverty – the alleviation of which is a core teaching of Jesus – continues to rage worldwide, even in countries that are primarily Christian. The US is a great example of a country filled with lots of Jesus-loving people who nonetheless hate the poor – which may explain in large part why there is always so much poverty, hunger, malnutrition, and mental illness in the wealthiest nation the world has ever known.

          • tolpuddle1

            “The last Christian died on the cross”, wrote Nietzsche bitterly, and there’s some truth in the remark. It’s because human nature is so fallen, that Jesus sacrificed Himself on the Cross in order to redeem us – but everyone, churchgoing or not, is very slow to let this redemption soak into them so as to change them. Christian theology has always maintained that we cannot be compassionate (or even want to be, except by God’s grace (open to all people of goodwill, atheists included).

            Nevertheless, Jesus works on the basis of “Christian is, as Christian does” – as He said: “It isn’t those who say to me ‘Lord, Lord’ who will be saved, but those who do the will of my Father in Heaven” – i.e. to be good and kind. Faith isn’t unimportant (those who won’t become Christians will need a good reason for this when they meet Jesus Christ), but faith is unavailing unless it leads to compassion. Too many of us Christians in the West, myself included, have for a long time been fence-sitting, trying to be Christians but , equally sincerely, trying to be prosperous Western people.

            What you say of (most) USA Christianity is horrifyingly true; American Christianity (and the USA itself) have always been built on the basis that we CAN serve both God and Mammon, despite Jesus of Nazareth’s having said the reverse – but then, what would He know ?

            Since 1979, the poisonous right-wing attitudes of many Americans have percolated into the UK (and getting worse since the boom ended). It’s why many of us hope that the biblical prophecy going the rounds (“The nations will be shaken”) will come true, and soon.

          • Reasonforall

            You need to calm the f**k down and read some history (and not just the history of war, but histories of the arts and sciences). You’ll soon discover that we are living during an incredible time in human history. We’re very, very fortunate. Don’t let ancient superstitions prevent you from taking advantage of this glorious thing called life. Peace.

          • tolpuddle1

            Good and evil are always duelling, so – as John Paul II pointed out – good and bad things are thus happening simultaneously.

            It is an incredible time in human history and we are in many ways fortunate to live in it; but Dickens wrote of France on the eve of the Revolution: “It was the best of times, it was the worst of times.” The list of horrible things about today’s world (the West included) is extremely long – and the stakes have never been higher for the world.

            Your mention of “ancient superstitions” suggests you imagine that the supernatural doesn’t exist. As someone who has personally experienced both sides – Good and Evil – of the supernatural, I can assure you with the greatest sincerity that it does. This being the case, what makes you think that religion is superstitious.

            The Christian faith, like other faiths, has an austere side to it, requiring sacrifice; but no pain, no gain. “The aim of sacrifice is to gain something better than the thing sacrificed” – in Christianity, the good aimed at, is the Resurrection Life of Jesus; as He declared: “If the Son sets you free, you shall be free indeed.”

            St Irenaeus ( a martyr of the Early Church) said “The glory of God is a person fully alive”; all the evidence shows that religious believers live longer and happier lives than non-believers.

            Religion is about choice between good and evil and thus has a scary side; nevertheless “if your religion doesn’t make you cheerful, you’ve got your religion wrong.”

            Of course, over the centuries, some of those teaching Christianity have been authoritarians seeking to keep people in order (or in some cases, sadists trying to terrify them), but the Christian faith survives despite these (conscious or unconscious) betrayals.

          • Well, some conquistadors were good men, just as some politicians are good men. And even the bad conquistdores arguably were better than the Aztec priests who cut out the hearts of still living men.

          • tolpuddle1

            I agree with both your remarks, but the Conquistadors were as a breed bad (though sometimes remorseful) people. As they were devout, indeed fanatical Catholics, their behavior has tarnished Christianity and poisoned the minds of many against it.

          • Reasonforall

            Shameless and ignorant.

          • Reasonforall

            Perhaps the appropriate folks to ask whether they live in a “Christian” nation are the non-Christians in that society. Their answers would not please you.

          • The complicity of Christians in murder means that they are acting contrary to the way that human, Christians of not, ought to act, Likewise woman who aborts her child is acting ing a way contrary to the way that a mother ought to act.

          • Reasonforall

            This is an old argument almost always made by apologists of mass murder.

          • AffanGul

            Bear in mind also, that the Muslims in Spain were never really a “persecuted minority” except at the very end. The Muslim Caliphates in Spain were a ruling class that exacted all manner of depredations on the Christian natives. Murder, pillage, rapine, slavery, ruinous taxation and theft on a massive scale were inflicted upon the Christian natives for hundreds of years. Let us never forget, that the Reconquista was not a campaign of oppression against “innocent” people of goodwill, it was a war of liberation against a tyranical foreign occupier. A murderously oppressive one at that. Even the Crusades were a reaction against the flood tide of Muslim aggression all over the western world. Regardless of one’s feelings about Religion as a whole, certainly we can agree that Barbarism under whatever guise is unacceptable and must be resisted, can we not? The Christians are now the canary in the coal mine. Will we heed the alarm?

          • Reasonforall

            Got it: Christians good, Muslims bad. End of story.

          • Reasonforall

            In the 1990’s nationalist Serbs with the blessings of leaders of their Eastern Orthodox faith and nationalist Croats with urgings from local Catholic institutions together committed genocide, crimes against humanity, war crimes, (all crimes are set forth at the ICC at The Hague) against the native Bosniak population (ethnic south Slavs who practice Islam) for the primary reason that they are Muslims. Remember that (horrendous) euphemism “ethnic cleansing” – well, that’s what contemporary European Christians achieved in their was against Islam just a couple of decades ago. I could give you other recent examples – try reading a bit about the treatment of Muslims by Christian Russians both within post-Soviet Russia – Chechnya anyone? – and in the former republics of the Soviet Union. Stalin eliminated or exiled tens of millions of Muslims for practicing Islam – sure, they were commies, but if you believe that Soviets veered far from their Churches, you’d be misinformed.

            The problem with hate is that it blinds you to the good in others and the evil in your midst. Your dismissal of crimes committed by Christians against Muslims is inconsistent with historical facts and with reason.

          • tolpuddle1

            Like many Western anti-Christians and anti-theists, you fail to realise that you’re next on the Islamist hit list.

          • Bonkim

            Agree with you – the Taliban fear and hate Godless creatures like I than they do Christians and others of faith. We are their Public enemy No 1 – sowing seeds of dissent, and destruction. put it this way – not sure if it would be a painless death if shot by a Christian bigot or an Islamic one. May be one from each would be a quicker way to heaven – in many parts of the world Taxi-drivers carry pictures of Holy Mary, Jesus or the Cross, and that of the Muslim kissing rock in Mecca. May be it would be safer for me to have dual religions – now that will provide double protection for half the price. I just can’t bring myself to persecute my Islamic half.

          • Reasonforall

            Not likely I’m on an Islamic hit list, as you call it. Far more likely that my own government (Go USA!!) has – not one but – copious lists of its citizens on which I’m sure I can be found.

            Honestly, I’m more afraid of the lunatic Christians – who as I write – are determined to overthrow our democracy and plunge the world into economic free fall. They’re completely devoted to Jesus and whatever they can do to bring in the end of times it just great by them.

            Oh, I lived and worked in Manhattan on 9/11 close to the mayhem and still I don’t fear Islamic terrorists as much as the American ones.

          • ClausewitzTheMunificent

            Ach now, you see Christianity as a motivation for Empire, when actually Empire provided an opportunity for expansion. Moreover, you seem rather too gleeful to be a detached observer.

          • Bonkim

            The Great Roman Empire – and its successor – the Holy Catholic Empire – with a Ceasar at its Head, now turned into Holy Father. Yes Empires both. Some Popes took their title literally, prosecuted wars, took possession of conquered lands and dispensed arbitrary justice. Also sold dispensations from earthly sin, and tickets to heaven.

            Gleeful? No! Liberated from blind faith.

          • Fergus Pickering

            What is it that you believe in then? I do hope it is not Reason. Robespierre worshipped Reason.

          • Bonkim

            Absolute Reason as I see it – and being rational have to admit you see your own reason or faith as true reason.

          • And of course he is not detached at all. No man is.

          • parwaters

            “Time the tables were turned.” Certainly sounds to me like you were “condoning killing innocent Christians.”

          • Bonkim

            much water has flown under the bridge – read up the rest. Should I have said every dog has his day?

          • Fergus Pickering

            All belief systems are crazy by the same token.What is your particular craziness and does it help you in your time of trouble?

          • Bonkim

            You are talking about a faith that gives you strength to face trouble – which by implication is blind faith and has no rational basis. Some take to drink or drugs, go to the races or buy a lottery ticket thinking tomorrow will be better than yesterday. Now if that is the world you like, must say how shallow. Then again the vast numbers on earth think like you do and like the frog in water heated gradually perish without knowing what hit it. The trick is to understand trouble is part of life – something to be overcome and not worry about. You don’t need any crazy religion then.

        • I think we ought to forgive “Bonkim”, for “he knows not what he does”.

        • Miguel

          Nor have India’s Christians. Youtube ‘Persecution of Christians in India’. Be warned – you will be disturbed. The HIndus obtain funding for such persecution from Hindus settled in the United States, the United Kingdom, and other Western nations.

          The Vishwa Hindu Parishad (World Hindu Council) operates as a charitable organizations in these nations and funnels money to fund persecution in India.

          • Pootles

            How utterly depressing. Bloody hell.

          • Miguel

            I know 🙁 Luckily, the news is now spreading out West. Please let people know – Westerners aren’t aware of how Anti-Christian the majority of Hindus actually are.

            They’re allowed to settle and practice their religion freely in Western nations while funding persecution against Christians back home.

            Thank you for caring and God Bless!

      • Now, behave yourself, Bonkim!

        By the way, the current “persecution” of Christians in Muslim nations has nothing to do with religion, it has more to do with other reasons. For those reasons, read some of my previous comments concerning Western political parties being co-opted by Moscow & allies decades ago.

        • Bonkim

          Agree with you – Christians, Muslims, and Jews have lived amicably together for centuries – today’s situation where all the factions are jittery and the whole region is insecure and in civil war situation – simply worrying about a small section in trouble therefore is absurd. Christians siding with a murderous tyrant would not be looked as trustworthy by anyone and Islamic bigots are a nasty bunch.

          • “…and Islamic bigots are a nasty bunch.”

            Muhammad had a name for them…hypocrites, meaning unbelievers pretending to be Believers. And the propaganda they spew concerning Christians is laughably bad.

          • Bonkim

            All bigots are dangerous – and if you look around – bigoted Buddhists are killing Muslims and others in Burma, Sri Lanka, bigoted Christians are persecuting Muslims in the Phillippines, and vice versa, bigoted Catholics have burnt native Indians in South America or you name it – bigotry prevails in all religious and ethnic groups. Not sure abot Muhammad as I don’t believe in any religion – may be you can call me an anti-religion bigot – quite happy being one.

          • Liberal bigots are a danger if their minds are closed to an evidence that proves them wrong. The Jacobins turned reason into a goddess and slaughtered hundreds of thousands before they themselves were destroyed.

          • Bonkim

            Liberals by definition are not bigots – able to look on both sides without and preconception.

          • By self-definition maybe.

          • Bonkim

            We all interpret things in our own image – don’t you?

          • crosscop

            Nonsense. Hypocrites, according to the Koran are those Muslims who will not fight against the unbelievers. Muhammad was actually Islam’s first Islamic bigot.

          • Mohammed himself, then, was a hypocrite.

          • crosscop

            “Christians, Muslims, and Jews have lived amicably together for centuries.”
            No they haven’t – apart from in your imagination. Not in the Middle East, not in “Golden Age” Spain, not anywhere, ever. The entire history of Islam is one of massacres (from the Banu Qurayza to Nairobi), enslavement and forced conversions of non-Muslims.

          • Bonkim

            You can say the same about Christianity over the centuries – continued sectarian warfare, killings and persecution of non-Christians.
            Don’t make any distinction between Muslim and Christian or Buddhist persecutions – all the same to me.

            In the context of the report, there are greater numbers of murders taking place in many countries of minorities than the handful in Pakistan or Syria and the Syrian Christians have a vested interest in promoting the cause of Murderous Assad as they have sided with him against the majority of Syrians.

            All persecution is evil and criminal but no point taking the side of one set of victims against the other. You obviously are a partisan and don’t see the bigger picture.

          • crosscop

            You made the claim. The claim was quite obviously false and betrayed your woeful ignorance of Islam’s history. And why was I not at all surprised by the “whataboutery” of your reply?.
            And I do make distinctions between Buddhist, Christian and Muslim persecutions – on the basis that neither Buddha nor Christ ever justified the persecution of others but Mohammad (a mass murderer, torturer, rapist, slave-dealer and war criminal) blatantly did. Muslims are urged to live their lives as Mohammad did – and that’s a scary thought.
            BTW – No point taking sides? One set of victims against another? I am not in the least religious, but in what way are Middle Eastern Christians persecuting Muslims? The Copts, for instance, have been on the receiving end of Muslim persecution for 1400 years. Come on, when did they persecute the Muslims?

          • And what about the persecutions by atheists and freemasons who in Mexico in the 1920’s suppressed the nascent Catholic political parties, provoking a savage civil war before establishing a one-party state that held power for the next seventy years?

          • Bonkim

            Are Christians supposed to engage in worldly politics? look up your Bible – so if Catholics engage in political parties, expect to be treated as any other political adversary including suppression by violent means in non-democratic tyrannies.

          • Why shouldn’t Catholics indulge in politics? We are subject to the rule of other men and unless we take part in politics, these men will impose their will. Madison says that the very existence of government is a judgement of human nature. The will to dominate is an unfailing part of human nature. Which is why we have government. which is why we must share in government, why pacifism is foolishness.

          • Bonkim

            Yes agree with you – what you are defining is Christianity made up by man. That is totally un-Christian – the Popes themselves have initiated and supported various wars, invasions, plots, and colonization adventures that involved skulduggery, and wholesale destruction of humans; so don’t bring that into a discussion on religious persecution of Christians by Muslims or secular governments.

          • Fergus Pickering

            What has the Bible to do wit Christianity. Most of it is a Jewish book. Catholics do not look tothe Bible for their religion. I supppose you are a lapsed Protestant. Dangerous people, those.

          • Bonkim

            I have to agree with you there Fergus – Yes the Catholic Church is simply a continuation of the Roman Empire and as political and wicked as the previous Empire.

            Your anti-semitic slip is showing and you have little understanding of the Bible, and Christianity – so why are you worried about persecuted minorities in other lands?.

          • AffanGul

            Playing whatabout? Okay what about the secular atheist National Socialists responsible for 20 Million Deaths in Europe, including wholesale Murder of 6 Million Jews? What about the secular atheist Stalin murdering upwards of 60 Million in mass starvations, purges and political murders? How about the atheist Mao. how many tens of millions did he murder in the name of Communism? Pol Pot? Che Guevara? How many hundreds of millions of forgotten victims have been murdered by cynical atheist leftists with a political grudge? I’ll take the Pope any day.

          • I failed to see the places where Christians, Jews and Muslims have lived together amiably. Certainly not in Muslim lands. It is a bit like saying that southern slaveowners lived amiably together on their plantations until the abolitionists got everyone all fired up.

          • Bonkim

            Yes they did – one should not judge history by today’s standards – people adapt to the prevailing power relationships and once accepted live amicably. To look up the situation of slavery – don’t forget that society was unequal, not just slaves but there was a pecking order even in European society and many people went as indentured servants to the new world.

            Many parts of the Islamic Empires had people from many religions living peacefully, engaged in their respective trades – check history – many European (not all Europeans had adopted Christianity either until recent history) men and women lived in Islamic lands either voluntary or taken as slaves during the periodic plunder and pillages that were common practice of the day but then settled, often marrying into high society.

            No society wants continuing strife and find ways to resolve conflicts. History is full of rulers and wealthy merchants helping and liberating minorities from oppression. Look up history.

            You don’t have to go to Islamic countries to face discrimination – many fundamentalist Christians face prejudice and persecution in nominally Christian countries simply because they do not conform with the accepted norms as set by the local church of the Pope or do not participate in nationalistic and other rituals. In some parts of the world where Christianity is dominant they are actively persecuted and barred from the normal channels of justice.

          • The Muslims came as conquerors and established an empire with themselves as its masters. They were no different from the Romans. They exploited the subject peoples and if the people wanted liberty, as in the case of the Jews, savagely crushed and enslaved them. The Muslims did the same, and have into the present century. The Armenian genocide by the Turks is the most recent instance.

          • Bonkim

            Absolutely – that is how history operates – and the US genocide of the native Indians, or the British convicts getting rid of the aborigines or taking pot-shots at the Tasmans simply because they missed their fox-hunts back back home.

            What is wrong with Islamic invaders plundering and pillaging their way n horseback and taking the women and children on their path? After all they are barbarians and have to play their part.

            Armenian genocide in the 1920s – the break up of the old Empires left huge minority populations all over the place – believe it or not there are still many millions of Greek and other European origin trapped within some of the Central Asian Republics – luck for them the October revolution and being within the Czarist Empire. The Armenians were unlucky the Turks lost and there was general resentment against the Christians that defeated them. Many more Christians came unstuck in the spat between the Eastern and Roman Churches and they are not on speaking terms even now. old enmities are never forgotten, at least in the middle-East.

        • Of course the persecution has to do with religion. I can only think you think this because you forget the connection between religion and culture. Religion is not like philosophy, simply a matter of personal opinion.

      • Treebrain


        Now we are starting to see you in your true colours, you are actually in favour of Christians being persecuted today because of events that took place in the past?

        Do come clean and have the courage of your convictions, does your comment above mean that you endorse the persecution of Christians as discussed in the article?

        • Bonkim

          Keep guessing.

      • Er, ummm, Bonkim old fella, I am not quite sure that we and you are inhabiting and reporting on the same planet’s religious affairs.

        Also, if the Christian God was not an all-loving, all-forgiving God, then our lawyers would be sitting opposite your breakfast table together with the British Police tomorrow morning, for hate-speech (which GFNs invented – google a GFN) and we hope that you would at least gain wisdom from the experience, if not perhaps profit much from it.

        • Bonkim

          Now what makes you waste your time? and what is your take on support for Assad? If people stop giving out bigoted opinions perhaps discussion would be a lot more interesting.

          I suppose the report was there to instigate controversy.

          Hate Speech ? It is in support of getting rid of tyrants like Assad and blind religious bigots inhabiting this space.

          • No, all religions do not spew up love and kindness.

          • Bonkim

            Read between the lines – Christianity is intolerant of all others – otherwise there will not be just one true God – and those without the true God need not be tolerated – don’t take today’s liberal social norms in the west as Christian – they are simply a practical adaptation to defuse social conflict – a politically convenient environment.

            True Christians are intolerant of all others including the diverse established Churches including the Church of Rome which they consider heresies. In the past violence was the norm against heretics and there are gun-toting Christians in many parts of the world that will do the right things..

          • AffanGul

            Your assumptions are faulty. You project your own cynicism where it does not exist in order to rationalize your own biases. Christians do not persecute heretics in the 21st Century, whereas Muslims kill and ethnically cleanse Christian minorities all over the world. By your comments you have indicated that you are in favor of this as some sort of revenge. This is a morally indefensible position. You aim to provoke, and successfully so, but your cynicism convinces no one. It is provocation for its own sake.

          • Bonkim

            are we just talking about the 21st century West? Minorities are at the receiving end Christian or Muslim, Budhhist or any other. Religion is a provocation to many.

          • Fergus Pickering

            How dare you presume to know who true Christians are?

          • Bonkim

            By comparing practice of those who profess to be Christians with the concepts that are contained in the Bible.

        • Rebel Druid

          “if the Christian God was not an all-loving, all-forgiving God, then our
          lawyers would be sitting opposite your breakfast table together with the
          British Police tomorrow morning, for hate-speech”

          And you’d be slapped in the face with a charge of wasting police time. Bonkim isn’t committing hate speech; he’s pointing out inconvenient truths.

          Christians are just as ready to persecute non-Christians under the right circumstances. Look at Uganda. Christians are trying to bring a ‘kill the gays’ bill through their Parliament. A lot of the commenters here are saying it’s horrible that Christians are being persecuted the world over and they’re right. What I don’t like is the fact that they’re so willing to gloss over the fact that Christians have performed plenty of persecutions against non-Christians (and fellow Christians) over the centuries; they’re still doing it today (not so much with the fellow Christians now).

          • The argument is that Christians are being persecuted just as others are, and in greater numbers, but that the fact is being ignored. As for gays, what Uganda is proposing to do is what Islamic states generally do.

          • Bonkim

            you will be surprised – the Russian Orthodox Church and Putin have now re-discovered freedoms to persecute all other religions including the Catholic and other Christian Churches. The USSR and Stalin persecuted all religions or not allowed any to dominate the others.

      • I think “Bonkim” has rather too much time on his hands. He’s replying systematically to too many comments.

        I think that “work” will make him free, if it is offered.

        • Bonkim

          Getting into the habit I see.

      • Isabel Gabriela Rodriguez

        Oh yes, you did this to me, so I’ll do the same to you. Is that not so smart.
        Answer to hate and violence with hate and violence: the best idea ever, of course.

        • Bonkim

          not my idea – simply that is how those at the receiving end see things – most of the world face life on the raw, their self identity is made up of ethnicity, religion and culture – and they believe in blood-feuds. People don’t act rationally and reason is different to different people – just look at the posts here.

      • You are confusing the spread of European colonialism with the spread of Christianity. That came to an end no later than 1960. Further, the spread of Islam, far more than the spread of Christianity has been achieved by force. From 632 to 1683, that spread was pretty much unstoppable. The after September 12, 1683, with the relief of Vienna by the Christian armies, the tide began to return. By the 1790s, when Napoleon invaded Egypt, Muslim military power was on the retreat alway everywhere. In 1919, the Ottoman Empire–one the greatest power in Europe–was dissolved. Ironically, at the same time as the Austro-Hungarian Empire which had blocked the Turkish advance into Europe in 1683.

        • Bonkim

          No confusion and not disagreeing with historic facts you state – military power and God go hand in hand – one is protected by the other – my God is stronger than yours is the message. the same logic Christianity spread in Europe, and Islam all over the Middle-East and Asia. European culture and religion destroyed much of that prevailing amongst the indigenous people in the Americas, and the process involved much bloodshed – same as the spread of Islam in central and South and central Asia. You may argue which was more or less violent – but both religions spread with the backing of military power, the same in Europe where the Pope or their anointed Kings went forth to conquer and Christianize the heathens..

      • Nowistherighttime

        Really shown your true colours. I can’t take a single comment of yours seriously with such a disgusting attitude.

        • Bonkim

          Did I ask you to? Or is this a warning from Jehovah – about to be struck down from above?

          • Nowistherighttime

            There was absolutely no religious connotations in my comment. You’ve posted onto a public discussion, you don’t have to ask me anything. Your comment was disgusting and foul.

      • Fergus Pickering

        That is a peculiarly odious remark.

        • Bonkim

          Get real – look up at the wholesale destruction/corruption of local cultures and societies across the Globe by migration, military conquests and Christian Missionaries marching hand in hand in the Americas, Africa, and Asia over history – no different from the Islamic invasions that ravaged much of Asia and parts of Europe over the centuries. One as evil as the other.

      • “Christians have been persecuting others for centuries, time the tables were turned.”

        You are just a nasty piece of scum.

        • Bonkim

          What an unchristian comment Petra. I will have to pettition the Holy Father to excommunicate you.

      • Oh, really? Did you stop to think about how disgusting that sentiment is? What did I have to do with any of the religious wars of the past, promulgated by people who I would not recognize as sharing my faith? (In fact, they persecuted true Christians then, cut out their tongues, burned their eyes out with hot irons, and broke their hands on the thumbscrews, among other delights.) You betray nothing more or less than a hatred for people who never did you any harm with such talk. The sad thing is, the day will come when people like you get your wish and we’ll be rounded up again. But as Jesus said, “Do not fear those who can only kill the body but cannot touch the soul, for after that they have no more power to hurt. Fear Him who can throw both body and soul into hell.”

        • Bonkim

          Yes keep steadfast in your faith and all the world’s Satans cannot hurt you.

      • sambar2

        I must say, it’s very helpful when someone makes a statement of such astonishing ignorance so that you know, without a doubt, never to take anything else they say seriously.

        • Bonkim

          You are supposed to read/comment on the report – not others’ comments. A few Christians getting persecuted/massacred – when many minorities are persecuted and killed all over the world – where persecution of minorities is endemic, genocide continuing unopposed – Syria, Burma, Sri Lanka, Pakistan, Congo, Somalia – thousand getting killed in sectarian violence in Iraq every year, it is pathetic that Christians alone should get attention.

          • sambar2

            Again, your ignorance is so astonishing I’m not sure why I’m commenting but I guess I’ll oblige…

            Show me where in the article it says “that Christians alone should get attention”. The point is the martyring of Christians is massive and continues to grow but you don’t hear a peep about it from the vast majority of media outlets. On the other hand, the persecution of minorities is reported constantly. As it should be.

            The blatant double standard in reporting can be likened to the situation in the US where black on white crime is increasing at an appalling rate, but since the media refuses to cover it, and the DOJ refuses to acknowledge it, the general public remains unaware. Yet, if one “white hispanic” kills a black guy in self defense, it dominates the MSM for the better part of two years and black race-baiters, assisted by the media, declare it’s “open season” on blacks.

            This article is trying to point out basic and irrefutable facts. That you can’t see that just speaks to your overwhelming ignorance, and the fact that you somehow try to justify the violence against Christians speaks to your overwhelming immorality.

      • justejudexultionis


    • Bonkim

      Didn’t you realise the West is no longer ruled by the Pope or the Churches and Christianity is no longer the political power it was when the Pope called for Crusades. If you look up history – sectarian violence in the so called Christian lands have killed more Christians than the numbers in Islamic or other lands. By Christians I mean those who call themselves Christians – not those following the Bible.

      And those dying from Christian persecution, and the Inquisition – Jews, Gypsies, South American and East Asians – no one has kept their tally.

      • “Didn’t you realise the West is no longer ruled by the pope or the Churches and Christianity is no longer the political power it was when the Pope called for Crusades.”

        And thank God for that, for a particular reason I’m sure you’re unaware of!

        • ClausewitzTheMunificent

          Actually, the Pope was never as powerful as many commonly assume. The papacy reached the apex of its power in 800-900 AD whereupon its influence declined fairly steadily. Furthermore, the Western Europeans had their own motives for joining the crusades, none religious. A progressivist historical reading causes much confusion and is terribly patronising of past people, who weren’t any less intelligent or capable of self-interest than ourselves yet who are sometimes rather conveniently portrayed as totally in thrall to “inferior” ideology.

      • Treebrain


        Do be careful, you are starting to sound an awful lot like GantsehMacher!

        • Bonkim

          Don’t know who your friend is – don’t care much.

          • Treebrain

            Well he has a very similar style, starts with faux politesse, becomes unhappy if you do not agree with him, ad hominem attacks follow, then personal abuse and finally the usual accusations about being an anti-semite.

            Can you not see why someone might not recognise a certain similarity with your very own comments?

          • Bonkim

            it does not bother me if you agree or disagree – simply pointing out facts. Good luck and you have every right to posting your views as I have of mine.

      • carlolancellotti

        A mythical view of history. How do you know how many people died of intra-Christian sectarian violence? Do you have a reliable head-count? Apart from a brief period in the 100 years after the reformation, during the remaining 1900 -plus hundreds years of Christian history, very few.

        • Bonkim

          Pass – Sectarian violence among Christians has been noted from the time of the first Christian schisms to the present day.

          You do the research to count the dead and maimed. Almost all Wars in Europe had a sectarian element – so there again check the body count – assuming those in power kept records.

          Some of the Crusades involved butchery between the Catholics and the Greek Churches, Look up


          and speak to someone in your nearest Library or university History department.

          • carlolancellotti

            “Almost all Wars in Europe had a sectarian element”

            That alone is an absurd statement. I am European, and I know our history very well. If we had time to write hundreds of comments, we should play a game. You list a war that was motivated by sectarianism, I list one that was not. I would win hands down.

          • Bonkim

            Don’t waste your time playing games – People often overlook their own dark past and Europeans are pretty insecure about their identity and narrow-minded nationalists with a provincial mindset over most of known history.

            Just one example:

            “In the St. Bartholomew’s Day massacre followers of the Roman Catholic Church killed up to 30,000 Huguenots (French Protestants) in mob violence. The massacres were carried out on the national day celebrating Bartholomew the Apostle. Pope Gregory XIII sent the leader of the massacres a Golden Rose, and said that the massacres “gave him more pleasure than fifty Battles of Lepanto, and he commissioned Giorgio Vasari to paint frescoes of it in the Vatican”.[30] The killings have been called “the worst of the century’s religious massacres”,[31] and led to the start of the fourth war of the French Wars of Religion.”

          • tolpuddle1

            30,000 Huguenots were killed ? Small beer indeed compared to the tribal warfare of the world wars or the massacres by Hitler and Stalin.

          • Bonkim

            Yes Tolpuddle – and both Hitler, and Stalin were nominally Christians. Explain that to Mr carlolancellotti .

            I did not start to count the bodies in the 116 year Hundred years’ or the shorter 30 years’ war.

          • ClausewitzTheMunificent

            Yes, but none of this was religious Bonkim. You appear to have a very skewed way of viewing the world. Political and economic motives were the driving force for both wars you mention, while the Huguenots spent too much time plotting.

          • Bonkim

            No one goes on a killing spree just for fun – yes economics, and quest for power come into play – you will find the same regards minorities that the others are envious/some areas of competition in earning a livelihood – but religion/culture defines the separation accentuating the justification for getting rid of the enemy. Check on all ongoing conflicts – India/Pakistan, Russia in Chechnya, various conflicts in the Mid-East, Nigeria, Congo, all have underlying religious/ethnic/cultural hatreds that drive once some minor trigger point not related to religion is crossed. Or it becomes easier to drop a bomb say on heathens rather than on your co-religionist. Easier to define them and us.

          • Lea

            Muslims go on a killing spree and appear to be enjoying every minute of it, and they feel sanctioned by their unholy god, allah, the greater of the 360 pagan gods of the kaaba. Islam is not a religion it is a militant political ideology that is hellbent on wiping out all other religions and making the world for satan, allah, only. This is the only reason we see wars, because of the muslims practising islam in their perpetrual jihad on the rest of humanity, and muslims are the greatest victims.

          • Bonkim

            Have you just woken up from sleep and catching up with your thoughts?

          • Bonkim

            So what are you doing to eliminate ISIS?

          • parwaters

            Okay — I grant you there was certainly a religious element to the 30 Years War. Absurd to deny it. But I don’t see how a 116-year squabble between two French-speaking, Catholic dynasties rates as a religious war.

          • Bonkim

            Look up my other comment on the 30000 hugenots killed – just an example – sectarian wars and massacres were endemic in Europe and rest of the world – for centuries. just Google the topic.

          • Lea

            The only thing you are really observing is the Roman Catholic Church Pope acting like he is God and killing the true Christians. All true Christians do understand that the RCC is a pagan cult and very similar in many ways to Islam.

          • Bonkim

            So do you want to destroy RCC as well as the Islamics?

          • Lea

            You plaster your supposedly pragmatic non absolute drivel all over this page, and then you go and ask a pathetic question like this? The only idiot here who is so puffed up with his self importance, is you.

          • Bonkim

            Didn’t you say the Pope was not a Christian? Your earlier comment –

            “The only thing you are really observing is the Roman Catholic Church Pope acting like he is God and killing the true Christians. All true Christians do understand that the RCC is a pagan cult and very similar in many ways to Islam.”

            Don’t worry I won’t tell on you to my buddy Jehovah. He won’t visit his wrath upon you and 14 generations after you. How is that> We are good friends aren’t we?

          • Lea

            Muslims like JWs too, since they both deny the Son of God and are antichrist.

          • Brian Wilson

            I’m puzzled by the statement that both Hitler and Stalin were nominally Christians. Stalin’s implementation of Marxism was, surely, very aggressively atheist. Hitler may have had experience of life in church, but had only use for religion where he could manipulate it for Nazi ends. (Witness his wrath toward the few brave churchmen who stood up to him – Bonhoeffer, Martin Niemoller, etc.)

          • Bonkim

            Is there anything absolute in life/ We all absorb traits from our surroundings and people we come across – brainwashing starts when you are a child. I am sure both Stalin and Hitler were influenced by the prevailing religious and cultural ethos, and if you know your environment intimately can make use of that to further your objectives even more.

            Deep inside, evil-doers suffer from the delusion that what they are doing is for the common good – greater cause.

            The Jesuit Father praying for the heathen soul just before he is set alight or the Mujahadin slaughtering a non-believer or Mr Assad unleashing Sarin on his fellow Syrians – all one way or the other believe their actions are for the greater good.

            What is amazing is that many on this blog-site think that an evil tyrant Assad is the saviour of Christians in Syria and that he has to be helped to overthrow the Islamic Mob opposing his tyranny.

            Rationalising or condemning acts we consider abominable to Christians or other minorities mean little – taking sides with a tyrant is no guarantee he will get rid of you when the time comes – in fact Christians were being lined up as human shields when US strikes were seen to be imminent.

            there will always be people driven by their causes and the days when gunboats were sent for collective punishment to protect a besieged minority are long gone.

            We seem to forget that the early 20th century was full of wars, political intrigues, and social, and religious tensions, creating great uncertainties, and terrorist acts across the known world. What is surprising is that the root causes of some of the present strife go back a hundred or more years and the break up of Empires which put disparate social and religious groups within loosely defined national borders.

          • Brian Wilson

            Thank you for the reply. I obviously disagree with your supposition that there is nothing absolute in life. However, I accept your point entirely that the supposition of support for Christians must never be used for justifying evil. While still respectfully thinking it factually incorrect to speak of Stalin as nominally Christian (the Soviet Union and Soviet block countries were renowned for the vigour with which they opposed any religious belief), I see some of your argument.

          • Bonkim

            There again the distinction between theory and practice. Despite the state being anti-religion in both the USSR, and China, various Christian and non-Christian denominations went about there business, often in private homes, and many Party members joined in and protected members from the officialdom. It was common knowledge in countries such as Poland that Party big-wigs went to Church in another village or town not to be recognized. Even fundamental Christian sects with bases in the US went about their work despite occasionally caught distributing literature or some other mission activity. The view that Churches were persecuted and treated harshly is a myth perpetrated by CIA propaganda – most went on and the Orthodox Church even became a friend of the state, and now has the upper hand in post-communist Russia bringing about oppressive laws against all other religions and denominations. The Orthodox Church is closely tied to a Nationalistic Russian state.

          • Brian Wilson

            Some of this is wrong. The reports of persecution did not just come from the CIA; they came from people imprisoned, etc. for their faith. (Or are these just fabrications?)

          • Bonkim

            No smoke without fire – the way laws operated in a vast and diverse land such as the USSR varied at local level, and also mixed with other local factors, petty envy, etc. And of course the persecuted always wanted their story to be heard.

            The recent report of the Syrian Nun exaggerating the anti-Christian persecutions and forced conversions was found out to be untrue and a put up job by Assad’s propaganda machine. She was an Assad supporter.

            In principle the Quoran forbids persecution of Christians and Jews as they are people of the book – and as long as they accept the supremacy of Islam and follow the local Laws, may be pay a non-Muslim tax, are allowed to get on with their religion and trade, unlike other non-Judaeo Christian religions which don’t have any rights. Most Christian communities I understand live in segregated communities or villages with their own protective guards/militias. Some in fact sided with the opposition. So it is not a clear cut case of one lot battling the other or Jihadists on the march forcibly converting every Christian they come across. Tensions and mistrust, rumours of course natural in a civil war situation as exists in Syria.

            The stories about persecution in other countries in Asia/far east and Africa – real but these are essentially communal riots taking place amongst deprived sections of the populations at the lower rungs of society – not an organised pogrom against Christians or any others and needless to say affected by local rivalries, corrupt officials, and an unworkable and weak legal system.

            In all these – Orissa in India, NWFP in Pakistan, Philippines, Nigeria, etc, such communal tensions are part of their politics and many more of other social and sectarian/religious groups fall victim than the numbers of Christians affected. These are poor and insecure communities playing out their frustrations. Fear and hatred of a foreign religion or culture come easy in these environments.

            the same I would suspect in Syria, Egypt, etc, where events of recent years have heightened communal distrust and insecurity sharpening the religious divide – Christians often seen as enemy agents, not unlike the fear of communism/enemy agents prevailing in the US in the 1940s and 50s.

          • Kevin Heward

            What a load off rubbish learn to read your book. Early in the Koran not to persecute but later can kill. The later takes president over the former is how Islam understands the book. So you can not select what you want it to say.

          • Bonkim

            you haven’t read the whole and we can only look at generalised and anecdotal narratives. We are also discussing a religion and culture in many lands stuck in the middle-ages. Christians are not the only lot persecuted in these lands – so not sure what you are driving at – and we both are not experts in religious texts or looking at the statistics of persecution and commenting on how we see the subject based on perceptions/knowledge if any.

          • Kevin Heward

            You can only be speaking for yourself there Bonkin Ihave read the whole as for my experteze you are right you have no right to comment.

          • Bonkim


          • Lea

            Muslims are killing everyone including each other at present. Syria is in fact a religious war between the shia and sunni and the same thing is starting up in Iraq. The Christians are deliberately targeted by Muslims. Even their blood is tapped and sold to rich Muslims. Islam is the beast rising from the sea and many Muslims are demon infested as we can clearly see from the evidence of their wicked abominations on the face of this earth in their psychopathic desire to rule the world.

          • Bonkim

            O.K – you missed out Afghanistan and Pakistan will be taken over by the Taliban now that the US is turning tail.

            Best not to travel there, let them slaughter each other – will reduce world population.

            The earth is overpopulated and resources running out – perhaps this would be a god way to reduce the earth’s resource dependency.

          • Lea

            Are you a freemason?

          • Larry



            Giancarlo Finazzo

            L’Osservatore Romano

            Weekly Edition in English

            13 April 1978, page 4

            Among the persons of Sacred History mentioned in the Koran,the Virgin Mary occupies an important position on the historical and dogmaticplane. In addition to being the object of as many as thirty-four direct orindirect references, Mary also gives Sura XIX its name and is its central figure as the mother of Jesus. The characteristic note of references to the Virgin in the Koran and, to an even greater extent, in Islamic tradition, can be seen both in the information about her genealogy and her childhood—a part of which is more detailed than in the four Gospels—and in the language and way of narration which are seen to be particularly significant. Without going deeply into the question of the validity of the information and of the vast Islamic exegetics or “Mariology” to which it has given rise, we will limit ourselves here to recalling that the sources of Moslem tradition are, in this connection, the Arab Gospel of Childhood, the Protogospel of James, the Gospel of Pseudo Matthew, the traditions of judaizing Christians and the Hadith.

            To confirm the extraordinary value of the person of Mary,
            the fact that to her, alone among creatures, and to her Son, is attributed a nature exempt from all sin, is sufficient. We know that the Islamic religion ignores the concept of original sin; it attributes to man, however, a natural
            defectibility which makes him impure and imperfect from birth. Nevertheless, in a famous Hadith attributed to the Prophet, it is affirmed that:

            “Every child is touched by the devil as soon as he is born and this contact makes him cry. Excepted are Mary and her

            From this Hadith and from verses 35-37 of Sura III, Moslem
            commentators have deduced and affirmed the principle of Mary’s original purity.
            God, in fact, according to the Koranic text, granted the wish of Anna who consecrated to him Mary, about to be born, and the One to whom she would give birth (III, 37). God predestined Mary and purified her, raising her above all women (III, 45).

            After this premise it is not surprising that the dogma of
            the Immaculate Conception, though only implicitly contained in verses III, 31, 37, is univocally recognized by the Islamic religion. The recognition arises without difficulty also from the repeated and always unanimous evaluation of the extraordinary person of Mary and of her pure life (III, 42; XXI 91; LXVI, 12) which set her, with her Son, above every other created being.

            Mary’s childhood, as seen through the Koran narration and
            Islamic tradition, is entirely a miracle. Mary grows under direct divine protection; she is nourished daily by angels (III, 32) and has visions of God every day. Everything contributes to making her and her Son a signum for
            mankind (V, 79; XXI, 91; XXIII, 50). But if the detailed narration of Mary’s childhood confirms the exceptional value of her person, it is necessary to stress that the greatness of Mary is completely related to the extraordinary event constituted by the birth of her son Jesus. The fearful and sweet vicissitudes that precede and accompany the birth and the childhood of her whom God chose above all women, are, in fact; nothing but the prelude to the coming of the Messiah (III, 40). Therefore, in the intentions of Mahomet and the whole Islamic tradition, the advent of the Man generated by the Word (III, 45) finds
            in the history of the little Mary the mysterious preceding fact that prepares the believer, even more than the Gospels themselves do, for an expectation full of awe and hope.

            This atmosphere, so charged with expectation and wonder,
            certainly does not disappear at the moment of the annunciation—a moment that for Mary is the highest and most mysterious one in her earthly life, and that reveals to her at last the significance of her function in the history of men.
            The Koran does not indicate the place in which this mystery was carried but (XIX, 16). It asserts, on the contrary, (III, 42 FF: XIX, 17) that God sent his Spirit under the semblance of a handsome young man who, similarly to what is narrated in the Gospel of Pseudo Matthew, was the Archangel Gabriel, often identified in ancient time with the Spirit of truth or with times divine Spirit (ruh ul-amin and ruh Allah, XVI, 102; XIX, 17; XXVI, 193). It. should be
            pointed out that in the Koran version Mary does not utter the fiat which expresses her responsible acceptance of the divine will. Here she merely asks:

            “How can I give birth to a son if no man has touched
            me?”; receiving the answer; “Just so! God creates what he wants: when he decides something, it is enough that he should say: let it be! and it is” (III, 147; XIX, 203). A version that confirms the typically Islamic sense of the absolute authority and power of God, and the complete submission
            of man to his will.

            The Koran then narrates that Mary, feeling the moment
            approach in which she would give birth, withdrew to a lonely place in the East.
            Moslem exegetics is not unanimous in recognizing Bethlehem as the place of the Messiah’s birth nor does it seem to have attached much importance to the question. It lingered, on the contrary, on the episode of Mary who, tired and sad, invokes death (XIX, 22-26). The Spirit of truth answers her once more, bringing to her both spiritual and material comfort. Here, in fact, is inserted the well-known and delightful story of the Virgin who quenches her thirst with the water of a stream that suddenly gushes out under her feet, and who feeds on the dates of a palm tree.

            The Koran gives no details about the birth of Jesus. It at
            once presents Mary who, returning among her people and showing them the Child, becomes the object of terrible slanders. The episode, brief but dramatic, is suddenly solved when the Infant, speaking unexpectedly from the cradle, takes his Mother’s defense and exonerates her from all blame (XIX, 30-33). This miracle, to which the Koran refers more than once (e.g. III, 46; V, 113), is
            among those that have made most impression on the imagination of Moslem believers and that are still alive in their conscience. The episode, however, has also a kerigmatic importance for Islamic theology, since the fact that the Child speaks from the cradle is a violation of natural laws and therefore bears witness to the greatness of the Spirit that is in him.

            The Koran does not give us any other information on the
            Virgin’s life, while tradition recalls various and partly conflicting versions of the last years of her earthly presence and of her ascension to heaven. But neither the Koran nor tradition give the story of the Transitus Mariae.

            Mahomet defended Mary’s virginity

            Those who do not know the Islamic religion may be surprised to learn that Mahomet defended Mary’s virginity, or that he recognized her as the woman chosen by God for a function that was to be unique in history.
            Mahomet’s commitment to defend her and exalt her, also explains his harsh condemnation of the Jews (e.g. V, 156), guilty of persisting in the slander and in refusing to admit Mary’s unique role. It is necessary to clarify, however,
            that, also for Mahomet, Mary is unimaginable if dissociated from her Son: the divine election and the purity of the Mother are directly proportioned to the qualities of the Son; the moment of their interdependence is greatly felt,
            therefore, since the historical greatness of Mary is conditioned by that of her Son, and the Son in his turn depends on his Mother, who constitutes the indispensable promise for his presence on earth. In the Koran Christ is called repeatedly Issa ibn Maryam—”Jesus son of Mary” (V, 19, 75, 81, 113; XIX, 34)—a name which if it will become perhaps the best known one in the Islamic world, will also be the one that characterizes most the figure of Christ. This correlation, which has led Moslem religious thought to affirm the indissolubility of the dual concept Mary-Jesus and to base its refutation of Christian doctrine on it, seems to have its foundation in the principle of necessity. The negation of Christ’s divinity finds its reason, in fact,
            precisely in Mary’s human nature; that is, in the genetic relationship which, entailing the transmission of properties, would exclude a leap of quality from Mother to Son.

            This conception, in which there is also inherent the idea of
            the primacy of the female line over the male line (in the Koran narration of Mary’s life, while the person of Zacharias, the Virgin’s uncle and guardian, is thwarted by the constant presence of the Angel of the Lord, that of Joseph is completely ignored), is due, in our opinion, more than to the influence of the apocrypha, to an ancient way of feeling that is characteristic of the Semites of Arabia. It is a way of feeling which, is also alive in Mahomet and which
            leads to mental operations of the analogical type, to a thought geared less to speculation than to the pursuit of parallelisms, to the concordance of diverse but congruent elements, and therefore to the vision of a firm reality, because it is founded on perfect and therefore immutable relationships, which seem to exclude the possibility of gradual evolution. What Mahomet and his commentators
            failed to grasp intellectually, is the concept that the presence of God can come about in different ways, realizing itself as a circumstantial and determined presence, without causing for this reason any alternation in God himself. This presence, furthermore, may have the character of a gradual and growing manifestation; and may mark a new temporal effect at the very moment in which God sets up a new relationship with his creatures. That Islamic theology should find it so difficult to grasp this concept, seems almost incomprehensible when it is remembered that Mahomet himself, in addition to affirming with unusual forcefulness the omnipotence of God, also perceived a certain development God’s manifestation of himself through his “messengers”, and recognized Moses, and particularly Jesus and himself, as having a role which, though not well defined theoretically, seems superior to that of the other prophets.

            In this case, too, mention should be made, for the sake of
            equity, of the doctrinal difficulties connected with the Arab social and religious environment in the sixth and seventh centuries, which Mahomet had to cope with and by which he was conditioned to no small degree. Also the historical figure of Mary raised problems for him. At the end of the century,
            in fact, precisely some Christians of Arabia had introduced the Marian cult which, in the time of Mahomet, had already degenerated into worship of the Virgin as the third person of the Holy Trinity. The inevitable disapproval and
            condemnation by the prophet of Islam, thus involved the historical person of Mary in new polemics.

            Taken from:

            L’Osservatore Romano

            Weekly Edition in English

            13 April 1978, page 4

            L’Osservatore Romano is the newspaper of the Holy See.

            The Weekly Edition in English is published for the US by:

          • Lea

            The Vatican Holy See is infiltrated by the serpent seed. It is not Christianity, but Christianity provides a cloak for its clandestine activities which are purely satanic. It has absolutely no authority over the Word of God although it claims it does and so withheld from the common Christian direct access to the Word of God for more than 1500 years, so that it could wield power and gain wealth.
            Islam is not a religion but a pagan death cult that also uses the Word of God to blanket itself as something that appears legitimate. It too is a form of sorcery that is used to programme people, manipulation equals witchcraft. Nothing in the quran is acceptable scripture since it is the drivel of a perverted depraved psychopath. We know he is a false prophet because Jesus told us that we can discern this from the fruit he has borne, and it is very evil stinking rotten fruit.
            Inform yourself on something relevant to today and useful for people to know since it may well be a matter of life or death, eternal life or the second death.

          • Lea

            Understanding islam is very easy when you realise it is based on the only authority in islam, mohammad. Whatever he did and said is what islam is.

          • Bonkim

            Have you been attending ISIS seminars in Mosul? Has Muhammad left any recordings of his speeches for his followers to listen to?

          • Hammerstrike

            “The recent report of the Syrian Nun exaggerating the anti-Christian persecutions and forced conversions was found out to be untrue”

            According to whom?

          • Bonkim

            tens of thousands are dead, millions homeless – a few Christians persecuted or caught up in the civil war is not news. They can look after themselves there and first stop supporting the murderous Assad.

          • Hammerstrike

            It is more than just a few christians.

            The kind of actions the so-called FSA takes against civilians in Syria would be deemed pure evil if it was done by Germans during WW2 but sinc ethey are doing it for democracy, your lamestreammedias are brushing it under the rug.


            Democracy, not Islam of course.

          • Lea

            Is it that the Muslims are to be made to appear as if they are the most victimised as they try so hard to do despite the fact that no matter how hard they try, hate crimes are the highest against Jews comprised 62.4% of the latter category and Muslims11.6%. This being another form of jihad as you deliberately spread your misinformation. Muslims are waging terror on all peoples and cultures.



            Sweden is one of the worst at present.

          • Bonkim

            The Jewish State has acted like war criminals on Palestinians – what do you expect – regards Sweden, don’t go there if you feel unsafe..

          • Lea

            Now your true Muslim colours are starting to show, ain’t they. What you are really saying here is that the poor Palestinians muslims are the biggest victims in the world and we can’t let the Christians out do the Muslims in the victim category, now that would just not do, would it?
            Secondly, what you are saying in your perverted Muslim way, is that the muslim crimes that are being waged on INNOCENT people in no way even related to the Palestinian Israel conflict are justified. You are a depraved demon infested Muslim.
            Thirdly, your arrogance supersedes you, Muslims are the ones who must get out of our civilised western countries and go back to their war torn hellholes and love their sharia for themselves. We don’t like you anymore.

          • Bonkim

            Write a letter to the Palestinian Times in Arabic – no one here listening to your mad rantings. I have never met an idiot like you before. But one always learns there are demented souls in all parts of the world.

            Normal British people don’t vomit such rubbish – so you must be an asylum seeker lost his way.

          • Lea

            No, we treat people like you with respect and decency that you obviously do not deserve, parasite.

          • Bonkim

            We? – are there more like you in the nut-house you sleep in? As stated – have you taken your tablets today?

          • Larry

            HI UP, LEA,


            No question about it!



            Their “HARRY POTTER” QURAN teaches them NOT to question, but to obey!

            Roman Catholics had the same problem through the Dark Ages & did the same savage acts to anyone who questioned Mother Church!


          • Lea

            True. The Arab Muslims are in fact one of the most successful colonialists of all time. As they did so they absorbed the culture and achievements of each civilisation. What they did not do through the sword they now do through stealth jihad.

            Take a look at this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WLyrpaTKCCE

            Have a look at Cyprus and compare this situation to that of Israel. Note how in many countries, even Russia the muslims are demanding segregation. Philippines are cracking under decades of terrorism from muslims in collaboration with Marxists.

          • Larry





          • Lea

            You are a lying Muslim. You are revising history to suit Islam. Just another form of jihad. The evil imams are currently inciting the Muslims to do this, in expectation of the caliphate that is supposed to be installed by 2028, 100 years after the West demolished the Ottoman Empire. This is the reason that Muslims have been indoctrinated to hate the West. The truth is that a Muslim wants to reign superior over all others. Islam is a pagan death cult. To obtain the evidence of the wicked evil deeds that Muslims are perpetrating on this world just take a look at the following websites:




            To the Muslim, fear of a foreign religion or culture does not apply when it comes to Christianity and Judaism. Furthermore, the quran does instruct Muslims to murder infidels and they are focusing in particular on Christians:




          • Bonkim

            How do you know I am a Muslim you idiot? Regards the other points – the Bible tells believers to go forth and multiply.

            The real question is whose God is stronger and whether Jehovah or Allah will ultimately triumph.

            I shall get out before the great battle of Armageddon between true and false Gods.

            Good luck to all, glad I am a heathen and an Atheist..

          • Lea

            Muslim liar. Met your type before many times. There is only One God and it is the God of Israel. Allah is a demon worshipped by Muslims like you.

          • Bonkim

            My God is Stronger and cleverer than yours any day and you are no son of Elohim the God of Israel.

          • Lea

            Depraved psychopathic mind of evil, for you worship a demon.

          • Bonkim

            A powerful demon – making me invincible – Bullet-proof monk you know.

          • Lea

            Please provide some references or evidences. I am waiting….

          • Bonkim

            I think you will be waiting for a long long time Lea for your answer – perhaps Jehovah will drop them in your ears if you wait long enough.

          • Lea

            As I suspected, you are a muslim liar.

          • Bonkim

            Is that any different from a Christian idiot? Doubt if you are a Christian though – your tongue is too twisted and brain jelly-fied for that.

          • Lea

            As if a muslim knows his arse from his face. You have submitted much information, but all of it is drivel and deceit.

          • Bonkim

            Have you taken your tablets today Lea? Please go home and ask your Mum.

          • Lea

            The only thing that russia does differently to the West is that it does not commit suicide through multi-culturistic political correctness. It will not allow subversive ideologies to flourish in its domain, like Islam, it is well aware of the muslim terrorist and their ideological allies, often jews, and take firm steps to subdue them. This is a good thing, while the West is destroying its own freedoms and principles by showing no backbone, Russia will remain strong in its Christian ethic. Russia may surprise us, since Turkey is in fact where the seat of satan lies.

          • Bonkim

            You sound like the Prophet earth-people have been waiting for two thousand years. The second coming!

          • Larry

            OH BOY,

            “Mr Assad unleashing Sarin on his fellow Syrians”




            55,000 DIED IN ACTION.



          • Lea

            Listen, Larry Boy, you are deceived. The people you are referring to are Freemasons and they do operate from the Vatican but they are not Christians, they are children of the serpent, satan who is right now riding the beast of Islam. Perhaps you are very concerned about the covert activities of these people. Please take a look at http://www.ICTSS.org and notice that the rest of us, the common Christian, who knows and loves Jesus Christ, and are sealed in his Holy Spirit, are trying to expose the great evil but do know this. The enemies are Marxist, Mason and Muslim and they are part of the Luciferian Masonic Vatican cult who worship satan. MMM. How’s that?
            And if you do have any ounce of insight you would know this by now. These are the elite we talk about.
            What would be more helpful and appropriate to post right now is the instances of terrible persecution that humanity is under by the Muslims.

          • Larry

            YO LEAH,

            If memory serves me right, Leah was the old spinster that Laban pawned off on poor Jacob (Genesis 29:1-30) after he working 7 years for Rachel.

            THERE IS NO SATAN!


            GOOD vs EVIL.






            STOP BS & LOOK UP JEREMIAH 17:9-10 & JAMES 1:12-27!

            MAN IS HIS OWN “SATAN”.

          • Lea

            You are very mistaken. There are only two races on earth and that is the serpent race and the human race. You quote the Bible as if to say something to support your rambling and then you deny the fact that there is a satan. Jesus himself cast out demons, one of his major pastimes on earth.

          • Larry

            “You are very mistaken. There are only two races on earth and that is the serpent race and the human race”.


          • Larry

            “You are very mistaken. There are only two races on earth and that is the serpent race and the human race”.


          • Lea

            Lucifer and company were thrown out of the heavens and landed on earth. When they started I don’t know, but when they began interacting with humans, breeding hybrids and altering the DNA of mankind was from Eden until prior to the global flood. The parables of the wheat and the tares, the goats and the sheep, are the separation of the two races. We can choose which side we want to be on. If you are not sealed in the Holy Spirit of Jesus Christ you are exposed and vulnerable to the serpent rising.

          • Larry

            YO LEA,


            Though so long dead, like the great nation of which it was the inspiration and life,—though swept away by Mohammedanism,—its influence remains, and has
            permeated both Judaism and Christianity. Christianity has probably received from it, through Judaism, its doctrine of angels and devils, and its tendencyto establish evil in the world as the permanent and equal adversary of good.

            Such a picture as that by Retzsch of the Devil playing chess with the young man for his soul, such a picture as that by Guido of the conflict between Michael and Satan, such poems as Milton’s Paradise Lost and Goethe’s Faust, could perhaps never have appeared in Christendom, had it not been for the influence of the system of Zoroaster on Jewish, and, through Jewish, on Christian thought. It was after the return from Babylon
            that the Devil and demons, in conflict with man, became a part of the company of spiritual beings in the Jewish mythology.

            Angels there were before, as messengers of God, but devils there were not; for till then an absolute Providence ruled the world, excluding all interference of antagonistic powers. Satan, in Job, is an angel of God, not a devil; doing a low kind of work, indeed, a sort of critical business, fault-finding, and looking for flaws in the saints, but still an angel, and no devil. But after the captivity the horizon of the Jewish mind enlarged, and it took in the conception of God as allowing freedom to man and angels, and so permitting bad as well as good to have its way. And then came inalso the conception of a future life, and a resurrection for ultimate judgment.
            These doctrines have been supposed, with good reason, to have come to the Jews from the influence of the great system of Zoroaster.

          • Lea

            The is only one truth. Scientifically you say it like this:
            Therefore, there is in fact no duality, it exists only in this dimension. It is possible that the original garden of Eden was not on this physical earth, but with the fall of man, which is the union with the serpent, it was necessary to be cast onto this earth which God specifically created for only a period of time, to give us all a chance to choose reconciliation with him. One plan, through One nation, Jesus Christ and an age of grace in which the Holy Spirit is freely accessible just for the asking, which seals us in Christ.
            Zoroastrianism is another man made cult with some truths in it that is why it does bear resemblance to the actual truth. To pretend that there is no duality is a dangerous game to play, since it rules out the reality that demons are jumping around us, on us and into us at any given time. Demons are real even though we cannot see them, but presently, as has happened before, there are some humans who are actively working to open the portals to the demons and assisting demons to take on a physical form as they did before the flood. This is one of the main reasons that Masons (Vatican, royalty, elite) and Muslims and Marxists major in murder, genocide and human sacrifice in particular that of children, for there is something in the power of blood that assists with the manifestation of demons to humans. The energy released from fear, pain and the horror of mutilations and torture feeds the demon.
            There is a vast amount of truth in mythology. Even so, there is still only one truth, we aint gonna figure it out until the promise of Jesus, where he tells us that all things will be made known, is fulfilled. God has chosen Israel through which to make himself known. Despite the many failings and brilliances of the Jews, that message has arrived in its entirety to humanity.

          • Larry

            Hi Lea,


            THE TRUE NAME OF GOD

            (The “Historical Evolution” of the Hebrew God,
            variously called Yahweh, Yaw, Yah, Yahu, El or Elohim)

            Yahweh is merely an amalgamation of various and multiple earlier gods and goddesses. The “Proto-Hebrews having imbued their God with the functions, epithets, symbols and achievements of many other earlier and contemporary gods and goddesses.

            It is a scholastically well known fact that many portions of the Old Testament are dedicated to establishing Yahweh’s superiority over the other Gods.

            Contrary to popular belief the Hebrews did not originally
            have a monotheistic religion. Theirs were the gods and goddesses of the land from which they were native; the hierarchy of gods and goddesses who included Baal, the god of storms, who made the land fertile, and Lotan, the seven-headed dragon, known to Old Testament readers as Leviathan.

            Ashera, identical to the Egyptian Isis, There is Yam Nahar, the god of the seas and rivers, and other pantheons and hierarchies of gods and goddesses. A little known fact is that the Hebrews also had twelve main deities and a multitude of minor ones.

            The Bible’s repeated uses of “Pagan” mythologies confirm for us that the Semites believed that other Gods existed. They simply used the myths of other peoples to argue the superiority of Yahweh.

            Strict monotheists would have felt no need to support a
            monotheistic viewpoint from “pagan mythology”.

            In every case where these references are used it is to
            affirm the triumph of Yahweh over the other “Gods”, the establishment of his rule on earth and his superiority over the other gods.

            These features can be found in Sumerian, Akkadian (later Babylonian and Assyrian) and even many Mesoamerican texts.

            The accumulation of these legends and stories and their
            eventual incorporation into a single coherent saga with a definite theological outlook was a product of the astonishingly creative period of literature in the kingdom of Judah in the 7th through 6th century BCE.

            The Bible’s owes a great indebtedness to the motifs found in the literature of surrounding contemporary and ancient countries.

            The literature created by the Sumerians left a deep
            impression on the Proto-Semites who in turn heavily influenced the Hebrews. One of the most thrilling
            aspects of reconstructing and translating Sumerian cuneiform script consists in tracing parallels and resemblances between Sumerian and Biblical literary

          • Lea

            It is thrilling indeed, and all through mankind’s history there as always been a thread, a thin sliver of unbreakable thread that bespeaks the truth about who we are and who God is and defines the rest for us. Every attempt that man has made to establish this truth has been undermined severely by the forces operating against the truth. Corruption always sets in and all these other gods and goddesses are mere manifestations of Lucifer and co.
            If you acknowledge Jesus Christ as your redeemer, you will receive the Holy Spirit of God and then you would step into a deeper relationship with your Creator. This makes everything else superfluous.
            Some say Hebrew was the original language and closest to cuneiform. Heard this somewhere. The Hebrews did come from that area.

          • Larry

            Yo Lea Potter,

            Now you are getting “caught up” in your La La Sunday school mythology.

            The Roman Pagan Catholic Constantine Cult PLAGIARIZED the teachings of Jesus of Nazareth & “created” a bastarded version of his Good News! And REMEMBER! All of Christendom has been tainted by their MYTHS & LIES.

            What was that Good News? There was No Need for Temple sacrifices! That our bodies were the Temple of God! That the Kingdom of God was WITHIN us. There was no need for QUIBLA (direction in praying), we can doing it lying in our bed.

            Jesus was following in the line of the Jewish Prophets, who had been abused & killed by TALMUDIC JUDAISM – OFFICIAL JUDAISM – TEMPLE JUDAISM.

            To get a glimpse at what he is teaching, study Matthew ch 19. See what he says about MARRIAGE (vs 4-9). It was MOSES that allowed DIVORCE. Jesus points back to a time before HEBREWISM – ISRAELISM – JUDAISM.

            It was the priest-scribe EZRA, who CORRUPTED the manuscripts. He edited them, just like the Council of Nicaea did with all the Christian Gospels & Epistles & produced their OFFICIAL BIBLE.


            There are 2 types of religion in the TANACH – PRIESTCRAFT & PROPHETIC. The Prophets preached against the SACRIFICIAL SYSTEM. Worship of God is ALL about OBEDIENCE!


            MYSTERY BABYLON!

            THERE IS NO SATAN!



            JEREMIAH 17:9-10,

            9 The heart is deceitful above ALL things,
            and desperately EVIL;
            who can understand it?
            10 “I the Lord search the heart
            and test the mind,
            to give every man according to his ways,
            according to the fruit of his deeds.”

            James 1:12-20

            12 Blessed are those who endure when they are tested. When they pass the test, they will receive the crown of life that God has promised to those who love him. 13 When someone is tempted, he shouldn’t say that God is tempting him. God can’t be tempted by evil, and God doesn’t tempt anyone. 14 Everyone is tempted by his OWN DESIRES as they lure him away and trap him. 15 Then desire becomes pregnant and gives birth to sin. When sin grows up, it gives birth to death.

            16 My dear brothers and sisters, don’t be fooled. 17 Every good present and every perfect gift comes from above, from the Father who made the sun, moon, and stars. The Father doesn’t change like the shifting shadows produced by the sun and the moon.

            18 God decided to give us life through the word of truth to make us his most important creatures.

            19 Remember this, my dear brothers and sisters: Everyone should be quick to listen, slow to speak, and should not get angry easily. 20 An angry person doesn’t do what God approves of.

            CAN YOU SEE IT?

          • Bonkim

            I War is much more refined now than it was in Viet Nam.

            Not sure whether you are now blaming Christians and the West carrying out war crimes in earlier decades.

            Yes at the receiving end does not matter if you area Christian, muslim or any other – evil lurks behind everyone and will engulf all some day.

            PLeasant thougthoughts

          • Larry

            YO BONKIM,

            Tell me if I.m wrong, but I think you are British & that your Monarch is the Head of your Church, which was founded by a serial ADULTERER & a serial KILLER.

            The same CLOWN left lots of money for Masses to be said for his soul in Purgatory.


            Moses PLAGIARIZED the 10 Commandments from the 42 Principles of Maat, the goddess of Egypt.
            His father-in-law Jetro, the Pagan Priest of Median, who worshipped VOLCANOS, mtaught Moses “the ropes” regarding running a religion. (Exodus 18:1-27).
            Human sacrifices were offered to Moloch aka The Golden Calf on Mt Sinai (Exodus 32:1-35; Amos 5:25-27; 1 Kings 11:1-13; Acts 7:42-43).
            Google Babylonian Jewish Talmud, Sanhedrin 64a-b & read about how to offer a HOLOCAUST to Moloch.

            Although they don’t say it, Muhammad learn’t certain things from Unitarian Christians in Arabia. His first wife & her cousin were Christians.

            Islam is symtomatic of what it was like in the Middle East around 600AD. There were lots & lots of Jewish & Christian sects, teaching their brand of religion. Is it any wonder an uneducated Arab picked up such a confusioned from them.

            OH YEAH!

            Billy LIAR Graham was a personal friend to so many Presidents of America, but I never heard him condemn Vietnam. MLK did & he was assassinated. JFK wanted to pull out his troops & he was assassinated & the COWBOY LBJ was mafde President & escaleted the war.


            Now regarding EVIL:

            Please study Jeremiah 17:9-10 & James 1:12-20-27.


          • Bonkim

            Without questioning what you have written – religions are all man-made. Not many take the COE or any other too seriously in Britain and also much of Europe, it is absurd for anyone to suggest that the Bible or Koran or any other religious texts are not man-made but given by the divine – if there is such a thing.

            Simple proof – if the Bible or Koran today was the same on their first days – and we all believed in the trash, we would all be living in the dark ages.

            If you define religion, God, etc, as infallible truth for ever – no one has a right to interpret or change that, and we would not be debating the point. Having said that the Muslims have a point – they think their God is better than any others and if you don’t accept that you have no right to live – in fact many have volunteered to get rid of non-believers so Allah does not have to get over-tired and can go to sleep with peace upon him.

            So yes the US or Britain, or any others that claim to be from any variety of the Christians – or Muslims or whatever are living in a perpetual illusion. Now how many varieties of Christians and Muslims and Hindus and Buddhists did you say there were across the Globe? No need to respond Definitely more than Heinz 66. I bet there is one God that is conning all these people – appearing in various colours and shapes – getting his 10% commission.

            But I love our Queen – the best person Britainever had.

          • Larry

            YO QUEENY,

            I KNEW YOU WERE BENT!





            Satan Attends Every Childbirth; He Touches Every Infant

            Except for Mary and her Son Jesus, all babies cry during
            their birth, because Satan touches them… (Sahih Bukhari, 4.55.641)

            Whenever a child is born, Satan pricks it; that is why the
            child cries. Only Mary and Jesus were not pricked by Satan…(Sahih Muslim, 30.5837, 5838)

            Say prayer during sexual intercourse, and Satan will not
            touch your child…(Sahih Bukhari, 4.54.503


            In a broadcast on the UK’s Fadak TV on May 24, 2012, Habib calmly and dispassionately asserts that all non-Shiite males — especially the Shiites’ Muslim rivals, the Sunnis — are sodomized at birth by the devil, and grow up to become “passive homosexuals”, i.e., the “bottom” of a homosexual pair who is penetrated in anal sex.


            Islamic cleric confirms Muslim men really are sodomites

            You know how some people insult Muslims by calling them
            crude names that are the equivalents of sodomites and bestialists (butt- and goat-f**kers)? It turns out at least the sodomite insult is true! We have it straight from the mouth of none other than a Muslim cleric — a London-based
            Shiite cleric named Yasser Habib.

            In a broadcast on the UK’s Fadak TV on May 24, 2012, Habib calmly and dispassionately asserts that all non-Shiite males — especially the Shiites’ Muslim rivals, the Sunnis — are sodomized at birth by the devil, and grow up to become “passive homosexuals”, i.e., the “bottom” of a homosexual pair who is penetrated in anal sex.


            “Anyone who consents to being called ‘Emir of the
            Believers’ is a passive homosexual. Omar Ibn Al-Khattab, for example, who willingly assumed this title, was, without a doubt, a passive homosexual. The same goes for the caliphs Othman Ibn Affan, Muawiyya, Yazid, and the rules and sultans of the Umayyad and Abbasid dynasties, as well as some of the rulers and sultans of our day and age.

            For example, the king of Morocco bears this title. This is
            how you know that he is a passive homosexual. This is in addition to the evidence revealed by Western media, which showed that the current king of Morocco is indeed a passive homosexual who belongs to the homosexual community. This was leaked from his palace by his assistants, his servants, and his ‘boys,’ whom he would penetrate and who would penetrate him. They fled to Europe, sought asylum, and exposed all this.

            Cleric Yasser Habib exposes Kalifa Umar.

            It is told (in the hadith) that Umar Ibn Al-Khattab had an
            anal disease, which could be cured only by semen. One should know that this is a well-known medical condition, which is also mentioned in sacred texts.
            Someone who, God forbid, has been penetrated in the anus, a worm grows within him, due to the semen discharged in him…

            A disease develops in his anus, and as a result, he cannot
            calm down, unless. he is penetrated again and again.

            The Shiites are undoubtedly protected from this disease,
            and from committing this abominable and hideous act. As for the Nasibis (who hated the prophet Muhammad’s family), they are definitely afflicted with this homosexuality.

            One of the devils is present at the birth of every human
            being. If Allah knows that the newborn is one of our Shiites, He fends off that devil, who cannot harm the newborn. But if the newborn is not one of our Shiites, the devil inserts his index finger into the anus of the newborn, who thus becomes a passive homosexual. If the newborn is not a Shiite, the devil inserts his index finger into this newborn’s anus, and when he grows up, he becomes a passive homosexual.

            If the newborn is a female, the devil inserts his index
            finger into her vagina, and she becomes a whore. At that moment, the newborn cries loudly, as he comes out of his mother’s womb. Note that some children cry normally at birth, while others cry loudly and incessantly. You should know that this is the work of that devil, according to this narration.”

            Islam is NOT a religion, but an insane political system and
            sex cult populated by the severely mentally impaired.”

            When cleric Yasser Habib “says ‘passive homosexual’,
            he is referring to the receptive, submissive, female-equivalent partner.
            Dominant, inserting male homosexual activity is universally accepted in Islam.
            He has no problem with that. It’s grown men ‘catching’ that he has a problem with.”

          • Bonkim

            Keep trying to attract the Devil by praising him and he will bless you with many children.

          • Larry

            YO BONKERS,


            Though so long dead, like the great nation of which it was the inspiration and life,—though swept away by Mohammedanism,—its influence remains, and has
            permeated both Judaism and Christianity. Christianity has probably received from it, through Judaism, its doctrine of angels and devils, and its tendency to establish evil in the world as the permanent and equal adversary of good.

            Such a picture as that by Retzsch of the Devil playing chess with the young man for his soul, such a picture as that by Guido of the conflict between Michael
            and Satan, such poems as Milton’s Paradise Lost and Goethe’s Faust, could perhaps never have appeared in Christendom, had it not been for the influence of the system of Zoroaster on Jewish, and, through Jewish, on Christian thought.

            It was after the return from Babylon that the Devil and demons, in conflict with man, became a part of the company of spiritual beings in the Jewish mythology. Angels there were before, as messengers of God, but devils there were not; for till then an absolute Providence ruled the world, excluding all interference of antagonistic powers.

            Satan, in Job, is an angel of God, not a devil; doing a low kind of work, indeed, a sort of critical business, fault-finding, and looking for flaws in the saints, but still an angel, and no devil. But after the captivity the horizon of the Jewish mind enlarged and it took in the conception of God as allowing freedom to man and angels, and so permitting bad as well as good to have its way. And then came in also the conception of a future life, and a resurrection for ultimate judgment.

            These doctrines have been supposed, with good reason, to have come to the Jews from the influence of the great system of Zoroaster.

          • Bonkim

            Yes the Great Ahura Mazda is the one and only true God of the heavens. Worship fire and you will be safe.

          • Larry

            YO BONKERS,


            “Keep trying to attract the Devil by praising him and he will bless you with many children.”



          • Bonkim

            You just did it and look at the Devil blowing himself up in the photo.

          • Larry

            Good night, Homer!

          • allymax bruce

            Hitler was wrong; he should never have attacked the poor Jews. The war-mongering Zionists were his real target, but because he couldn’t get to them, he obviously believed by wiping the Jews out, he was doing the world a favour. Wrong! Those poor people died, when they hadn’t done anything wrong; but the Zionists didn’t care!

          • Brian Wilson

            Am I saying the world was not right to care about the slaughter of the Jews? I certainly don’t believe that. Nor do I believe it is right to turn a blind eye toward suffering anywhere. What exactly is your point? So many innocent people are dying for all sorts of reasons anywhere – and it’s not right. I was only taking issue with this individual who described Hitler and Stalin as nominally Christian – I don’t think they can even be described as that.

          • allymax bruce

            Brian, first-of-all, the Zionists, aren’t Christians; conflating them, simply because the roots of the religion comes from the same source, isn’t applicable; especially when discerning the differences between all Abrahamic religions. For instance, Christianity, Judaism, & Islam, all have their roots in Abrahamic roots, but I doubt anybody would consider them alike in Nature. And, while you’re right about Stalin, being functionally Marxist, (of which has more fundamental beliefs in common with Zionism), I don’t think Hitler regarded Zionists as Christians. Therefore, in this debate, my point is, it doesn’t matter that Hitler was/wasn’t ‘Christian’, he believed he was fighting the Zionists, of which, don’t use Christian ethics neither. Therefore, Hitler, and Stalin, both were just as gruesome, as each other, and as their Zionist enemy.

          • Hammerstrike

            Your comment still causes butthurt.

          • Larry


            In the Babylonian Talmud, Sanhedrin 64 a – b Jews are taught how to offer HUMAN SACRIFICES to Moloch TODAY.
            THey started in Exodus 32 & you have to read Amos 5:25-27; 1 Kings 11:1-13; Acts 7:42-42 TO JOIN THE DOTS. You see HOLLYWOOD did a great job covering the FACTS as to why Moses had 3000 Israelites killed
            (Exodus 32:21-28).
            In Sanhedrin you will learn that Jews are INNOCENT
            of HOLOCAUSTING their victims, as long as they get someone else to do the HOLOCAUST.




            Rabbi Dr. Chaim Simons

            P.O.B. 1775, Kiryat Arba

            90100, Israel

            tel and fax: 02-9961252 (within Israel),

            972 2 9961252 (from outside Israel)

            e-mail: chaimsimons@gmail.com

            August 2007

            The Zionists FEARED that OLD, SICK & VERY YOUNG Jews would swarm into Palestine & destroy their Zionist Experiment.

            They also didn’t want them getting out of Europe. Then they got Rabbi Wise & CO to boycott Germany & that turned the German people against the Jews who couldn’t escape.

            This Plot was masterminded by Zionist Jews & carried out
            by demonic German Nazis & Marrano Nazi Jews.

            Herzl stated in his diary:

            “It is essential that the sufferings of Jews.. . become worse. . . this will assist in realization of our plans. . .I have an excellent idea. . . I shall induce anti-Semites to liquidate Jewish wealth. . . The anti-Semites will assist us thereby in that they will strengthen the persecution and oppression of Jews. The anti-Semites shall be our best friends”. (From his Diary, Part I, pp. 16)

          • Lea

            Your assertion that Jews are taught how to offer human sacrifices, you think that the Jews are doing this today. Do you have evidence or references to this actually happening. Or are you just making these statements off the chest so to speak. If so, you are not adding anything positive to the discourse at all, but in fact committing the sin of slander.

          • Larry

            YO LEA,

            It is clear to me that you didn’t Google:



            Rabbi Dr. Chaim Simons

            P.O.B. 1775, Kiryat Arba

            90100, Israel

            tel and fax: 02-9961252 (within Israel),

            972 2 9961252 (from outside Israel)

            e-mail: chaimsimons@gmail.com

            August 2007

            It is clear to me that you didn’t Google:

            Babylonian Jewish Talmud, Sanhedrin 64 a-b.

            It is clear to me that you didn’t research HERZL’S DIARY.

            The Babylonian Talmud Talmud says:

            On Passover Eve, they hanged Jesus of Nazareth. And the herald went before him forty days, and proclaimed ‘Jesus of Nazareth is going out to be stoned because he practiced sorcery, incited and led Israel astray.
            Whoever knows of an argument that may be proposed in his favor should come present that argument on his behalf.’ But the judges did not find an argument in his favor, and so they hanged him on Passover Eve.

            The Talmud describes torture inflicted on Jesus before His death. “All four legal methods of execution ­ stoning, burning, decapitation and strangling were employed”. The Talmud elaborates on “burning.” It involved Jesus being:

            “lowered in dung up to his armpits, then a hard cloth was placed within a soft one, wound around his neck and the two ends pulled in opposite directions until he was dead, forcing him to open his mouth. A wick was then lit, and thrown into his mouth, so that it descended into his body, burning his bowels.”

            Jesus, says the Talmud, was excommunicated for the thought of seducing a woman. In His ensuing grief and confusion, He fell down and worshipped a brick. The Talmud says Jesus “was a fool and we do not pay
            attention to what fools do.” According to the Talmud, Jesus is now in hell, writhing in eternal agony. The Talmud asks: “‘What is your punishment?’ He replied, ‘With boiling hot semen’”

            The Talmud defends the Jewish rulers who it says righteously executed four of Christ’s disciples: Matthew, Luke, Nicodemus, and Thaddaeus. 10 It considers His followers to be worshippers of a false prophet and
            worthy of death. References in the Talmud to Christ and Christians are often veiled by terms not understood by Christian censors in previous centuries. Two of the most common are “Minim” and “Minith.” The footnote to the Talmud in Abodah Zarah 16b (pg. 84) says that “Minith” refers to “heresy with special reference to Christianity.”

            Brotherly love did not extend to the Minim: Christians may be legally thrown into a pit to die. As Abodah Zarah 26b says: “‘idolaters and [Jewish] Shepherds of small cattle need not be brought up, though they must not be cast in, but Minim, informers, and apostates may be cast in and need not be brought up.’” In Shabbethai 116, Rabbi Tarbon says, “The writings of the Minim [New Testament] deserve to be burned, even though
            the holy name of God occurs therein, for paganism is less dangerous than Minith [Christianity]“

            According to the Talmud “Those who deny the Torah and the prophets of Israel [giving loyalty to the “false prophet” Jesus and the New Testament], the law is that they should be killed and those who have the power of life and death should have them killed. And if this cannot be
            done, they should be led to their death by deceptive methods.




          • Lea

            Herzl’s diary makes clear to me that the Jews were more than willing to compensate every single Arab that was relocated, handsomely.

            The Talmud as we have it today is more like the minutes of a symposium held over a few centuries, with the participation of scores of people over the ages. It is not law, the Torah is.
            We are all well aware that the Pharisees rejected Christ and many still do, nevertheless, the one true God reveals himself through One nation and that is Israel.
            What we can be sure of is that something dark and evil is rising upon the face of this earth right now and it is Islam. The Jews do not practise those things, except for the most orthodox they are tolerant of Christians.
            Islam is not a religion it is a pagan death cult and Mohammed stole his ideas and stories from the Torah and Gospels and corrupted them. It is also evident that he took many of his lines from the Talmud too as well as from pagan poetry.

          • Larry

            Genesis 29:16-17

            New American Standard Bible (NASB)

            16 Now Laban had two daughters; the name of the older was Leah, and the name of the younger was Rachel. 17 And Leah’s eyes were weak, but Rachel was beautiful of form and face.


            Just like your namesake, YOUR EYES ARE WEAK!

            You haven’t Googled:


            Rabbi Dr. Chaim Simons

            P.O.B. 1775, Kiryat Arba

            90100, Israel

            tel and fax: 02-9961252 (within Israel),

            972 2 9961252 (from outside Israel)

            e-mail: chaimsimons@gmail.com

            August 2007

            You haven’t studied the JEWISH STATE by Herzl.

            If you had, then you would have realized that it was a plot to eradicate ALL Arabs from Palestine, by hook or by crook.

            You haven’t studied the Babylonian Talmud & seen the FILTH that is written about Jesus of Nazareth.


            Many passages in the Talmudic books treat of the birth,
            life, death, and teachings of Jesus Christ. He is NOT always referred to by the same name, however, but is diversely called “That Man,” “A Certain One,” “The Carpenter’s Son,” “The One Who Was Hanged,”

            Concerning the Names of Jesus Christ

            1. The real name of Jesus in Hebrew is Jeschua Hanotsri –
            Jesus the Nazarene. He is called Notsri from the city of Nazareth in which he was brought up. Thus in the Talmud Christians also are called Notsrim – Nazarenes.

            Since the word Jeschua means “Savior,” the name
            Jesus rarely occurs in the Jewish books. It is almost always abbreviated to Jeschu ,which is maliciously taken as if it were composed of the initial letters of the three words Immach Schemo Vezikro – “May his name and
            memory be blotted out.”

            The Talmud teaches that Jesus was illegitimate and was
            conceived during menstruation; that he had the soul of Esau; that he was a fool, a conjurer, a seducer; that he was crucified, buried in hell and set up as an idol ever since by his followers.

            Furthermore, “In the secret books, which are not
            permitted to fall easily into the hands of Christians, they say that the soul of Esau came into Christ, that he was therefore evil and that he was Esau himself.”

            By some he is called a FOOL and INSANE

            In Schabbath, 104b:

            “They, [the Elders] said to him [Eliezer]: “He was a fool, and no one pays attention to fools.”

            Do YOU think that the God & Father of Jesus accepts these Talmudic Jews as HIS Chosen People?

            Are YOU a demented fool?

            Mohammedanism is all that you say it is & MORE & they are subhuman, but THE SAME SPIRIT is in BOTH these Cults.

            When you get the likes of Sarah Silverman FOUL MOUTHING the crucifixion of Jesus in her Act & no condemnation coming from Jews, don’t pretend that Jews are “nice”.

            KETHUBOTH, 11a-11b. “Rabba said, It means (5) this: When a grown up man has intercourse with a little girl it is nothing, for when the girl is less than this (6), it is as if one puts the finger in the eye (7), but when a small boy has intercourse with a grown up woman, he makes her as `a girl who is injured by a piece of wood’ “.
            (footnotes) “(5). Lit., `says’. (6) Lit., `here’, that is, less than three years old. (7) Tears come to the eyes again and again, so does virginity come back to the little girl under three years.” –

            Now compare that to what Jesus said in Matthew 18:6!

          • Lea

            First of all you presume too much regarding the name on this post. It is a shortened version of Leandrias. Furthermore, thank you for the Talmudic information, now I know where the Muslims got their nonsense from. Not even the Jews take this stuff seriously, but they sure do. This rabbi whose word you take as gospel, is a shirk. Don’t believe everything you read all the time Larry. Israel was, Israel is, and Israel will be.
            The Talmud reaction to Jesus is polemic, not historical facts. Judaism is not the Talmud but the Torah. Islam even takes the name of Jesus as Esau, just proves the Koran aint divine. The Talmud are discussions not laws.
            Your commentary is really disjointed.

          • Larry



            The Talmud was written by men who made an effort to
            further explain what was found in the torah. It offers commentaries on biblical passages along with guidelines on how to live your life. In it are things which are listed as acceptable and unacceptable, which using stronger language is viewed as legal or illegal according to Mosaic Law.
            It offers commentaries on Jewish ethics, laws, history and customs. It also offers opinions on what is known as Judaism’s Oral Law. Laws that were in theory, passed down through the generations to also offer explanations and directions concerning the written Mosaic Law.

            Whenever someone had a question about Mosaic Law,
            they would take the question to the rabbis in charge and the rabbis opinion (ruling) would become law. There are different opinions offered by different rabbis concerning the same topics, so the talmud contradicts itself in some areas. Not all opinions could possibly be followed and the talmudic writings have been codified giving what is
            accepted by those who follow the talmud a legal guideline to work from.

            QUESTION (1)

            Where did the authority come from to give these Rabbis the authorization to make rulings and writings that would be different from God’s own words? The answer is, they gave it to themselves.

            Consider the passage written in the Talmud, where the
            rabbis believe themselves so wise that their wisdom has replaced the wisdom of divinely chosen prophets.

            R. Abdimi from Haifa said: “Since the day when the
            Temple was destroyed, prophecy has been taken from the prophets and given to the wise. Is then a wise man not also a prophet?” 12 — What he meant was this: Although it has been taken from the prophets, it has not been taken from the wise. Amemar said: A wise man is even superior to a prophet.( Mas. Baba Bathra 12a. )

            The prevailing view of the Sages was that they had superseded and taken over the role of the prophet:

            These Sages went on to write a considerable amount of
            Jewish literature including the Talmud, Mishna, Gemara, and other Jewish writings. Today in some branches of Orthodox Judaism, talmudic rulings can take precedence over the torah. This is one difference between biblical Judaism and rabbinical Judaism.

            QUESTION (2)

            What Does The Talmud Teach About The Importance Of Its Writings Compared To The Torah?

            Raba made the following exposition: What is the purport of the Scriptural text: And, furthermore my son, be admonished:
            Of making many books etc.? My son, be more careful in [the observance of] the words of the Scribes than in the words of the Torah, for in the laws of the Torah there are positive and negative precepts; but, as to the laws of the Scribes, whoever transgresses any of the enactments of
            the Scribes incurs the penalty of death. In case you should object: If they are of real value why were they not recorded [in the Torah]? Scripture stated: ‘Of making many books there is no end’.(Eiruvin 21b (The Judaic Classics Library – The Soncino Talmud)

          • Lea

            Larry, the Talmud is a conversation that evolves with each generation. No one rabbi has the final authority. It is also quite evident that the Jews do not subscribe to every single word in the Talmud or precept that every Rabbi comes up with. It is not doctrine, the Torah is. At any one time there are numerous debates and arguments contributed to the discourse. It is not doctrine. Now you can ramble on in your misgivings about this forever if you like, I simply don’t care. What I do care about however is this:
            and since this is the manifestation of a death cult that is operating and growing at great speed and is a real threat to global security, I suggest you put your effort into informing people about something that is really relevant to what is happening right now.
            Whereas, the Jews do not make it their business to murder, rape and degrade, and destroy, this we know from experience.
            But the Muslims are a phenomenon that is doing this and much more, and they are doing it quite openly, yet it seems to be hidden from the social discourse such as major newspapers etc.
            The enemy of Israel is the enemy of your and me.
            Have a good life.

          • Larry

            ONE EVIL JEW:

            Billy Wilder

            Screenwriter and director, Billy Wilder, has had an enormous impact on the public, as substantiated by his numerous Oscars and other film awards.
            Responsible for famous films like Hold Back the Dawn, Five Graves to Cairo, Double Indemnity, The Lost Weekend, Sunset Boulevard, Stalag 17, Sabrina and
            The Apartment, Wilder’s cinema successes were granted him as he was just another pawn who was utilized with satanic acumen to help abolish society’s established code of ethics. His own authorized biographer who worked closely with him, Maurice Zolotow, wrote:

            “Of course, I did not know what I was getting into when I had started this. It became, as all such journeys have become, a journey to find out the secret springs of this most devious and perverse of Hollywood’s personalities.”

            Wilder loved to transport the viewer into the depravity of his own heart and did this by tricking the censors who sought to enforce the old Hollywood Production Code of Hollywood’s “Golden Age.” Wilder recalls, “We had to operate cunningly to outwit the censors and this made us write more subtly.” What subtleties did he scatter throughout his films? Perversion. In his movie, The Major and the Minor, Wilder admits that the motif was child sexuality, stating:

            “Ray Milland falls in love with Ginger as a twelve year old child.
            We had here the first American movie about pedophilia. The Major is sexually aroused by her. He can’t help himself. I was worried that audiences would be shocked by this story, but it seems that they were not.”

            This goes to show that if a story is entertaining and “cute,” it can bypass the normal reaction to such filth and translate into apathetic disregard on the slippery slope of corruption. Where did this movie minister of perversion receive his material? Wilder was given his creative material by another supernatural force. In addition to stating that he is “demonically possessed and slightly crazed,” Zolotow reports of Wilder:

            “He could not stop his creative machinery from functioning. He was enslaved by his art…One sometimes felt as if one were moved by powerful invisible forces. I forgot to tell you that Wilder never starts a new screenplay without typing two words on the first page: Cum Deo (‘With God’). He has a pantheistic feeling about the universe.”

            Demon possession leads many from the truths of God to the pantheistic lies of the New Age movement because Satan uses those who will serve him most faithfully in preparing humanity to embrace him as the god of this world. Wilder’s responses upon completion of his show make it readily apparent which god he aligned himself with. Scientologist screenwriter of the Sound of Music, Ernest Lehman, recalls:

            “He looked at the heavens and screeched F— you!” It was…a victory cry, as if he were calling out to God and saying, ‘I completed this picture despite everything you did to make me surrender.'”

            Dr. Lycurgus Starkey rightly announced on the NBC network: “His movies have overturned all the sexual mores, glorified promiscuity, glamorized prostitution and elevated adultery to a virtue.” Dr. Starkey was prophetically right in predicting the social effect and outcome of Wilder’s films that we currently face in our day. The atheist author of communism, Karl Marx, explains the reasons why this is so:

            “The ideas of the ruling class are, in every age, the ruling ideas: i.e., the class which is the dominant material force in society is at the same time its dominant intellectual force. The class which has the means of material production at its disposal, has control at the same time over the means of mental production.”

            The gross immorality in Hollywood that makes its way on the screen and thus influences the masses reflects the
            lives of those who operate within it. An intimate friend of the late Steve McQueen related:

            “He’d kill for a part in a movie…he’d suck anyone’s
            [expletive]…he’d get f—– or f— anyone who’d get him a part in a show…then he’d wish-he’d pray- that person would have a heart attack or a stroke and die, and then there would be no way for anyone to know how McQueen had got the part.”

            This disgusting ambition is what keeps the infamous casting couch warm and desirous hopeful actors willing. Hollywood insider, Phyllis Diller, clarifies this fact:

            “The casting couch is the name of the game in Hollywood. I know there are stars, especially women, who have made a career from sexual favors.”

            Would you invite a person whom you knew to be ethically bankrupt and an absolute moral degenerate into your home to influentially instruct your wife, your husband, and your children or loved ones? These are the very ones that America invites into their home every night via the television to submissively share their lives with.

            Biblically condemned spiritual conundrums regularly occur in Hollywood. Faye Dunaway said that the ghost of Joan Crawford is haunting her. Actress Jean Seberg
            believed that her “devils” kept her from ever being free.

            She stated:

            “The devils will stop that sort of stuff in a second. They ride right here. (Touching her collar bone with her fingers) Sitting here and here. There’s one on each side…these are both unfriendly influences. They tell me
            to run my car into other cars, or drive off a cliff.”

            A friend later reflected on her life and pin pointed the cause as the “acting classes at Columbia Studios…[which] had the power to influence Jean’s devils.” Like
            countless others in the Hollywood movie star system, this lead to psychiatric hospitals and suicide. Actor Sal Mineo was in regular contact with psychics and spoke of the “vibrations” of James Dean’s spirit that haunted him, stating, “I’ve got to get him off my back because I don’t want to join him down there.” Mineo was murdered under
            mysterious circumstances. Is fame worth the extorted fees that Satan demands of his servants of the silver screen?

            As Alan Alda declared:

            “There’s plenty of money to be had…But you also lose your soul.”

          • Lea

            Non Jewish Jews apostates. Can’t be a real Jew if you do not love the Lord your God with all your heart, mind and soul. True Israelites include Christians now, having been grafted into the one vine.

          • Lea

            Apparently the warmongering so-called Zionists were collaborating with Hitler, some say. Mere conjecture at this point, unless more evidence emerges. There is evidence that some Jews were not pursued by Hitler and some were even a part of his staff contingent – the judenrats.
            As for this Zionist thing, I think it is somewhat of a useless term nowadays since Israel has now existed for 65 years. The Muslim Zionists are the ones to look out for now for in their zeal they stop at nothing. The apostate Jewish bankers in control of vast sums of money are a part of the Marxist, Vatican Masonic, Muslim elite who are puppets of the serpent race.
            To try and blame the Zionists is disingenuous at best. The fact remains that Hitler was a psychopath and the Arab Muslims joined him because they did not want the Jews to return their ancestral homeland.
            It was the Christians that supported the Jews in restoring Israel, and they are also Zionists.
            The word Zionist is used as a dirty term but all it means is someone who supports the right for Israel to exist as a Jewish state. I am a Zionist. These conspiracy theories have no substance and so far I have found no evidence, only conjecture.

          • thawedcavebear

            Historical note regarding Nazi collaboration:

            Hitler promised the (former) Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, Islamic political leader of Palestine/Israel during the mandate (who oversaw the slaughter of Jews in the 1920s, helped expel them from Jerusalem, and in 1948, declared the spilling of Jewish blood ‘pleasing to history, god, and Islam’), during the 1940s, that he would implement a holocaust-style genocide of the Jews in Palestine once he’d finished the war in Europe. After this meeting, Haj Amin Al Huseyni (the Mufti) did Nazi radio propaganda for Hitler (in Arabic), and recruited Arab leaders to be trained in Berlin for what would come later. So there is indeed evidence of collaboration–quite conclusive, in fact–but running entirely in the other direction.

            Arafat was Haj Amin’s nephew (or perhaps cousin–genealogical records aren’t clear, and he was vague on the subject), and worked for him from 1951.

            The sole cooperation (actually only an attempt) I’m aware of between Zionists and Nazis is a single letter sent by a European Jewish organization before the war, when Hitler’s antipathy was becoming evident, asking Hitler and the Nazis to help Ashkenazim to relocate to the holy land and leave Europe, solving both their problems. The letter did not receive a response from the regime.

          • Giuliano Taverna

            Hitler was a catholic, his first alliance was with the Vatican, he talks about religion constantly in Mein Kampf, and the catholic church didn’t stop preaching that Jews are collectively responsible for the death of Christ until the 1960’s after they helped Nazis escape to Argentina.

            Oh and the Vatican state only exists because of a deal the church made with Mussolini.

          • Brian Wilson

            Fair enough. I’ve never read ‘Mein Kampf’ – and I don’t think I will ever bother doing so. But I think I’m right in saying that he sought even to manipulate the text of Scripture when the original did not suit his Nazi ideology.

          • thescottishpastor

            Hitler hated the church. But such was its strength in 1930’s Germany he knew he couldn’t stand against it. So he imposed his own Nazi leaders in positions of power to control the church. Brave leaders like Bonhoeffer broke away to form the Confessing Church. Bonhoeffer was jailed and then hanged.

          • Brian Wilson

            Thank you very much for reminding me of the facts about Hitler’s attitude to the church and of the Confessing Church’s break. The story of Bonhoeffer, Niemoller, etc. is indeed one of a courageous stand against Hitler. I have read Bonhoeffer’s biography and a little bit of his ‘Letters and papers from prison’.

          • Daniel W.

            so did King James

          • shawnsBrain

            please google Dietrich Bonhoeffer and then tell me how much Hitler loved Christians

          • Larry

            YO ALL,

            Go to You Tube & type in John Loftus, America’s Nazi Secret.
            You need to see this!

            Columbus & the Founding Fathers of South & North America, SLAUGHTERED the Natives, in the name of God.

            Why don’t Native American Indians celebrate Thanksgiving?

            Because they have NOTHING to be thankful for!

            But it goes DEEPER.

            When you study NATURE & remember that it says in Genesis 1:31,

            31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good.

            you will see things that will blow your mind!

            You will see WARS, SLAVERY, ETC.

            But when you begin to study Parasites, it really gets scary.


            Brainwashed by a parasite

            If you Google this site, you will be amazed at what Parasites can do!

            And if you are a Cat lover:

            The parasite, which is excreted by cats in their feces, is called Toxoplasma gondii (T. gondii or Toxo for short) and is the microbe that causes toxoplasmosis—the reason pregnant women are told to avoid cats’ litter boxes.
            Since the 1920s, doctors have recognized that a woman who becomes infected during pregnancy can transmit the disease to the fetus, in some cases resulting in severe brain damage or death. T. gondii is also a major threat to people with weakened immunity: in the early days of the AIDS epidemic, before good antiretroviral drugs were
            developed, it was to blame for the dementia that afflicted many patients at the disease’s end stage. Healthy children and adults, however, usually experience nothing worse than brief flu-like symptoms before quickly fighting off the
            protozoan, which thereafter lies dormant inside brain cells—or at least that’s the standard medical wisdom.

            Man & Religions have “created” their “gods” in THEIR image!

            The Supreme Being/Creator is far removed from man’s little “human” gods!

          • shawnsBrain

            exactly correct Brian Wilson

          • Brian Wilson

            Thank you – and thank you also for correcting Bonkim’s factual inaccuracies about Hitler and Stalin.

          • Thomas

            Aside from the fact that Hitler tried to change history by claiming Jesus wasn’t Jewish, and many Christians stood up to him eg Boenhoffer. Stalin was trying to set up a religion-free state!

            So when was the hundred years war a particularly religious war. It was pretty much the English wanting France against France wanting the rest of France. Yes they both invoked God eg Joan d’Arc but but both claimed the same God (that is with the same theology) and so merely let us use God as a good luck charm?

            The thirty years war, I’ll let you have it. That had more than a religious undertone.

          • Bonkim

            Hello Thomas, religion or sub-sects in religions had a key role in society until recent centuries. It was easier to kill off people that had different Gods – even the God of the Bible did not see much harm in destroying the evil Gods that the non-Jewish tribes worshipped.

            God or Gods sanctified the various Kings and Queens and sanctified their wars – so religion was an essential part in human conflicts from early times. Holy Fathers were in the theatres of war either boosting the morale of the fighters or sanctifying the dead so they went straight to heaven – how can you refuse an offer like that – is it any different to the promise of heaven and holy virgins for the suicide bombers?.

          • Lea

            As I have already pointed out, the RCC and Islam are similar. The RCC Vatican does not represent Christianity even if it masquerades as Christianity. Both Islam and the RCC originate from the pit of hell and this is currently being exposed quite clearly leaving very few of us in doubt. These two cults along with the Freemasons are Satan’s answer to Jesus Christ’s work on the cross, which is the only plan the On and Only God of Israel has provided for humanity’s redemption.

          • Bonkim

            Now you are talking – don’t forget most of the Christians battling with the Muslims in the Middle-East are either Catholics or Orthodox. Assume you consider all of them children of Satan.

            Good luck and may Jehovah save you from destruction.

          • shawnsBrain

            To say Hitler and Staling were “nominally” Christian or Christian to any degree is an outright denial of the truth and an attempt to smear Christianity. Even so, just Mao alone would overshadow Christian violence in world history.

          • Bonkim

            You are arguing which religion had inspired greater degree of murder and mayhem amongst its followers.

          • Brian Wilson

            Religions stand smeared – because humanity as a whole stands ‘smeared with infamous actions.’ You try to gloss over the fact that the irreligious and the anti-religious are also guilty in this matter. shawnsBrain makes the point about Mao – I had to give up reading a recent biography of him because it was a terrible record of someone who was quite simply monstrous.

          • Bonkim

            Today’s China would not have been there without Mao – you can look up history – made by wars, revolutions, genocide, murders and conspiracies – Monsters are the ones that shape history – there would not be a US or Canada today without the European immigrants committing genocide of the local inhabitants or importing slaves. Processes taking place in Africa and some other parts of the world today.

            Human survival/expansion is a no holds barred game and Britain has indulged in that for over two centuries building up an Empire – now gone. I don’t see Christian bigots any different from the Islamic brand – only now the Islamists are the terrorists.

          • Brian Wilson

            Not every person who has shaped history has been a monster – it is also the record of people who have stood up to monstrosity and had the determination to stop it. Are there no such things as virtue and peace? What about the convictions which led people eventually to outlaw and end slavery – that slavery which, as you rightly say, blighted history?

            Some of what you say also reinforces the point I was making – religions (including Christianity, Islam and every other) are tarnished because humanity has been tarnished.

            I am not, however, going to detract from the main factual basis of the article – the fact that this past decade has seen huge persecution especially of those whose faith has happened to be Christian by all manner of religious and anti-religious groups. And my support of that thesis is not driven by any political agenda in terms of Western civilization. There are many things about it which are dreadful – as well as things that are good.

          • Bonkim

            Don’t disagree – but the greatest danger is believing that the rest of the world follow your logic, sensitivities or sentiments.

            The pressures on the vast majority of global population that is bursting at the seams, resources depleting fast, and facing an uncertain future, is not conducive to rational thinking or charity for other faiths, other cultures. Many are driven by nationalistic or religious zeal and rabid animals.

            Hence my comment – the world out there is harsh, and the plight of a few in the midst of conflict zones like Syria or Pakistan where societies are still living by Middle-ages structures and mindsets – is just an impossible task to rationalise.

          • Justin

            Well for starters we don’t mutilate and murder our daughters, sisters, or nieces for hanging out with boys who are not related to them.

          • Justin

            Stalin was an atheist. And Hitler twisted Christianity to meet his ends. So your statement is false.

          • Bonkim

            Tell us you have the absolute truth on Christianity and in no way bent or twisted true Christianity to suit your own ends. Now also tell us what true Christianity is apart from enjoying your Christmas Turkey (or Goose, sheep or any other), and celebrating Easter the Pagan festival of the Goddess of fertility. When were your ancestors converted – forced or voluntarily.

          • Justin

            I don’t have to do any of that. So sorry. 😛
            However true Christianity is loving thy neighbor and helping people. Which is what I do. No bending or twisting done here.
            If you think that I was a Christian from birth, then you are dead wrong. I only became one recently.

          • essexpostie

            Stalin a Christian???

          • Bonkim

            Eastern Orthodox – but how do you define a Christian? By Acts – Most Popes will fail the Christianity Test.

          • rahul

            x in mid 1500’s=10x today

          • Hammerstrike

            Population was much lower back then.

          • elissalf

            In one day?

          • Sally Maxine Isaac

            You said it ‘dark past’ we have to live in the present in a more tolerant and civilised world.We can’t do anything about the past.So we must stop using it as an excuse to perpetrate crimes now based on past greivances!

          • carlolancellotti

            Exactly! You said it well:

            “Just one example.”

            You just proved my point.

          • TheWiz_71

            The two world wars in terms of death and destruction overshadowed, by far, all the other wars in Europe’s history put together. They were also distinctly secular, with secular causes, and people fighting on either side for secular reasons. Well, that is not 100% accurate, now I think on it. Hitler may have nominally been a RC, but what Naziism actually upheld was the divinity of the German nationality. It was, if anything, neo-pagan.

          • Bonkim

            Yes – those were industrial wars and naturally huge casualties across the world. The first WW however had religious connotations – Austro-Hungary and their supporters mainly RC. The British Empire forces were mainly WASPs. There was a similar broad division along the mainly Anglo-American and the European and Japanese – mainly RC and non Christian others. The Lutheran Northern Europeans mainly kept out (except German nationalists). Broadly speaking. Factors other than religion/sect creep in as societies get more sophisticated.

            Just look at the numbers supporting Assad and his murderous Shia supporters – the Hezbollah and Iranian irregulars in defence of a handful of Christians that are reportedly persecuted/eliminated in parts of Syria by Al-Khaida associates.

          • Sally Maxine Isaac

            What a load of rubbish,’till the present day’christians /jews do not kill each other now ,.Its just Muslim ‘so called extremists’who not only kill each other in massive numbers but also any one else who isn’t behaving in their narrow interpretation of ancient shariah rules.This of course includes Christians

          • Bonkim

            Yes – Good analysis – what is the solution?

          • Sally Maxine Isaac

            education education and more education.PLus more cooperation with intergration type groups.Plus the Mulahs being from the educated classes so there are more informed and modern teachers in the Muslim temples.

        • Valhalkarie

          so true, the “christian” elete murdered so many it’s not even possible to count.
          Corperate christians are just as insane as radical Islam.

      • tolpuddle1

        But you are living in the past – that’s precisely the point John Allen is making.

        • Bonkim

          The present comes from the past and future will from the present. If you read the various locations listed, societies in many parts of the world are still stuck in the past, poverty, exploitation, etc, etc, haunt the people and any religion – established or recently introduced another factor in their turbulent and uncertain life. It is natural therefore that minorities at the lower rungs of society get persecuted. That is today’s reality – not the politically correct world we seemingly live in Britain or other parts of the western/enlightened world. Just look at the situation in Greece and the rise of the Golden Dawn and the havoc that they are inflicting on asylum seekers, and immigrants. You need to look at the past to find answers for present problems – Change of century does not alter the basic mechanics of tribal society.

      • tuan


        Philip and Axelrod’s three-volume Encyclopedia of Wars, which chronicles some 1,763 wars that have been waged over the course of human history. Of those wars, the authors categorize 123 as being religious in nature which is an astonishingly low 6.98% of all wars.

        • Bonkim

          not going to spend $265 buying the book but will look the subject up – wars may not be initiated by religious differences but rides side-saddle with political or nationalistic causes – and nationalism is intertwined with territoriality, culture, history and religion – all close coupled. For example it is easy to pick an enemy based on cultural and religious differences although the initial cause may be economic or race for resources, or some political disagreements.

          Easy for example to send a gunboat or drone to take out a Taliban or Somali War Lord than say an equally dangerous gang nearer home. It was easy for the US to Nuke Japan and moral considerations were more lax given Japan was Yellow Peril. Much soul searching for example on fire bombings on German Cities but not much about the barbarities in the Eastern theatre or the activities of the CIA and allied forces in Latin America, Iran and other parts of Asia both during and after WW2. you will find religion/church and religion are part of the flag marching to war Chaplains bless those going to the front – mine is a just war and blessed by God – yours is blessed by evil Satan..

      • allymax bruce

        Bonkim, please don’t conflate Zionism, with the Jews; ok, it’s a Jewish ideal, but most Jews are not Zionists. In-deed, the Zionists, all throughout history, have ‘sacrificed’ their own people to make money; hence the wars, the suffering of Jews, and our (UK & USA) need to give the Jews their own Homeland by the ‘West’.

        • Bonkim

          No I shall not and understand the difference but Jews and Zionists need each other. Politics is never clean and money lubricates the political process, gets influence. The US political Parties live in fear of their funds drying up if they don’t play the Israel card right.

          Having said that is that not how human societies function – interest groups, material contribution and propaganda – Heaven on earth is light years away and people and politics will continue the muddled and often corrupt progress.

          Regards a homeland – I think the time of the nation state will come to an end as that of Empires in the last century. The future is uncertain and there will be no place for small nations as the fight for scarce resources engulfs all of us in a almighty war for what we can grab. the more populous or technologically advanced groups might just make it but even there population control and reduction in consumption a necessity for survival – the economical and political world designed in the 17th and 18th centuries social relationships coming to its end I suppose – interesting times ahead.

          • allymax bruce

            Bonkim, you said, “Jews and Zionists need each other”,
            The Zionists use their own people, the Jews, as capitalist war fodder; that’s exactly what Jesus was trying to tell the Jews. Jesus even told the Jewish people that they were on the wrong track, and that they needed to become Christians; he sent His Disciples to look for the ‘lost sheep’ of the 13 tribes; not the Gentiles! Doesn’t that tell you where he knew the problem was??
            The remainder of your comment shows you also regard your fellow human being, Jew, Christian, or Jedi Knight, as a commoditised worth for ‘use’.

        • Jaysonrex

          Actually, “allymax bruce”, ALL Jews are Zionists with some negligible exceptions that are kept apart since no one wants to be seen near such specimen. In other words, to be a Jew one has to by a Zionist.
          The anti-Semites are trying to create a division between Jews but they always fail. When the chips are down all 15 million Jews are in the same boat with Israelis. As we all know, Israel is the guarantee that the Holocaust will never happen again. Nor the pogroms, the ghettos or the Holy Catholic Inquisition.

      • Steve Miles

        End of day lets not argue over religion ! Lets acknowledge right now, , putting the past behind and take note, in this century christians are being killed and ponder why!

        • Bonkim

          Christians and many others from other faiths/cultures/ethnicities are being persecuted – this is a human condition all through history, only in the west in recent decades we have become sanitized into thinking life is beatiful – it is not and mankind is as barbaric as it was in earlier centuries, technology and faster communication and information make the effects much more instant and disastrous. Asking why will achieve nothing – the question should be what are the solutions if any.

      • Amonite

        The Crusades were a response to Islamic territorial aquisition – they had invaded and conquered christian areas about the size of France within 35 years or so preceding the first crusade and imposed their regime upon these formerly Catholic areas. Both sides committed atrocities in that war, and an estimated 2 million people lost their lives. In the thirty years war, between Catholics and Protestants but eventually becoming a power play in Europe, as many as 11 million lost their lives. These were mutually agreed on wars, however, and can’t be directly compared to targeted (one sided) persecution, or even battles where a superior force went in to slaughter a group.


        About 300,000 were tortured or killed during the Inquisition, and 24 people during the Salem which trials, with another several hundred thousand ‘suspected witches’ up through 1750. The Catholic church has in the past targeted christian groups and pagan groups alike. Thousands of pagans were killed from the 4th to 8th century, and over a million christians (usually on charges of heresy).

        This persecution is not supported or asked for by the Bible, and was primarily instigated by the Catholic church. Followers of Christ do not make religious war with flesh and blood – we fight a spiritual battle.

        For comparison:
        45+ million Christians were martyred in the 20th century alone, that is 65% of all the christian martyrs up to that time! The persecution of Christianity is getting worse, not better, as time passes.

        • Bonkim

          What are you doing to change the situation? Is history reversible?

      • Scott Freewell

        You don’t know what you’re talking about. Take the crusades for example. About 4 or 5 campaigns killing a couple thousand Muslims after 500 years and hundreds of campaigns killing tens of thousands of Christians by Muslims.

        • Bonkim

          Numbers depend who you ask. Millions have been mentioned by some – you better start a project counting bodies on both side to bring some balance in the body count.

          I have better things to do than re-write history..

      • You know nothing about history or morality. The Crusades were morally justified defensive wars to check Islamic aggression. Read a history book.

        • Bonkim

          The Crusades were raised by the Popes to drive Muslims from Jerusalem. It was only later the Turks invaded eastern Europe – which in any case was engaged in various conflicts.

          Wars and invasions were the norms of the times and many expanded their territories – difficult to to say who the invaders and the defenders were. National boundaries or nation-states as you know today did not exist, and most in Europe were drawn during the last 100 years.

          you better brush up on your history.

          • You are incredibly ignorant. Muslims invaded Europe in the 8th century – they invaded France and Sicily. They conquered all of the Christian Middle East. They engaged in constant warfare with the Eastern Roman Empire. The Crusades were a response to a plea from the Eastern emperor for military aid against the Turks. The Turks were only able to push eastward into Southwest Europe because the Crusades failed.

            You’re a historically ignorant fool and an anti-Christian bigot who ought to close his idiotic mouth.

          • Bonkim

            You are as much a bigot as the Islamic fundamentalist – looking back in history – Christianity in Europe was spread by wars and forced conversions as much as Islam in the Mid-East, both are conversion religions – and managed by a few to keep the vast populations ignorant. Warfare and conquests were the order of the day and the Central Asian Mongol Empire was the super-power of the middle ages.

    • Bonkim

      Not just Islamists that are persecuting Christians – read the report in full.

    • Mj

      The west as in US citizens is inaccurate, try those in power to control media and government meaning the religion that preceded Christianity. Seems odd that 2 religions with more in common with each other than in common with Christianity are the ones ruining the this world and leading us closer to WW3. Hmmm, shave their beards, remove their religious wear head and they ALL look the same, 2 sides of the same coin yet we who are none like them are the ones suffering now? Jesus will NOT be happy when He returns, sadly, these other guys will bear the brunt of our Lord’s ire this time around.

    • Rilman

      The socialists and apologists.

  • Treebrain

    Excellent article and it does raise the question as to why Prime Minister Cameron remains silent?

    In fact, he advocated supporting the Sunni Muslim fanatics in Syria, the very people who are massacring Syrian Cristians.

    It is Alawite Assad and his Shia Muslims allies, Hezbollah, who are protecting Syrian Christians.

    • JohannesHibernicus

      Cameron (and Obama) is more interested in applying sanctions against those countries which don’t adopt Western practices such as homosexuality.

      • Fergus Pickering

        What makes homosexuality a Western practice. It flourishes in Islam and all the way across Africa. Homosexuality belongs to all men everywhere.

    • Bonkim

      All those who shout lord Lord will not reach the Kingdom of Heaven.

      With friends like butcher Assad – can the Christians fail to survive? But the pact with devil – is that what you are supporting?

      • Treebrain


        Well the Christians will certainly not survive should the extremist Sunni Muslim rebels triumph as the massacres to date make clear.

        The Assad regime do not have a record of massacring Christians, so would you not agree that the outlook for Christians in Syria looks better if the Assad regime survives?

        • Bonkim

          I do not agree with persecution and murder of anyone or any group – however in places like Syria, you have to be religion-neutral and look at the greater good – and Assad is the main cause of the situation where over 120,000 people have perished -and similar situation created by his Father earlier. Assad is the greater evil there. No one will start a war to save a handful of a minority that had supported such a tyrant.

          Are you proposing Britain sends gunboats to Burma or sri Lanka or Pakistan where various ethnic, and religious groups are battling it out or minorities being persecuted and murdered often by terrorist organisations?

          • Treebrain

            Actually dictators like Assad, or in fact Gadhaffi or Saddam Hussein are not necessarily the greater evil at all.

            They may well be considered unpleasant by others but they are a product of their society and the days of gunboat diplomacy are over.

            The real problems come when external players fail to respect the national sovereignty of other states and start to interfere.

            Sanctions, military intervention and even invasion and regime change cause far, far more devastation and damage than a dictator like the three cited.

            Assad would have overcome the rebels quickly and easily is the rebels had not been supplied with weapons, money and fighters from outside the country.

            The days of Empire, or even overthrowing democratically elected governments like in Iran in 1953 or Chile in 1973 should be long over!

          • Rocksy

            We have imposed sanctions whenever there has been persecution of groups within a society. And I doubt that people who are being slaughtered can be blamed for supporting the only one they see as providing them with some degree of safety.

          • Bonkim

            These are political decisions – people often choose to stay even if persecuted as they don’t have options. Sanctions don’t amount to much. For example tens of thousands if minorities have been slaughtered or forcibly converted or persecuted in countries such as Pakistan or Burma or Sri Lanka or in other parts of the world; Christians are relatively small in terms of victims of such events – regrettably most of these events are outside the radar of the Western press. Life is cheap in many parts of the world and value of minorities even less.

          • Rocksy

            In any event, Christians face the worst persecution in the West.

          • Bonkim

            You are correct – most of the growth in Church-going Christians is in Asia, Africa, and the Americas. Is it because people in the West see the hypocrisy of religion they are brainwashed into and surrounded with.

  • Robert Mitchum

    David Cameron finds it all too much to move his fat backside when thousands of peaceful people are murdered or driven from their homes. He can, however, get that fat backside over to the Grapes pub in Wapping for a discreet one-to-one meeting with Stephen Fry when summoned to discuss protests about gay rights in Russia.

  • Keith D

    Violent factions are encouraged to target Christian minorities by the supine response of the West to such atrocities.Our great enlightened civilisation has idly stood by since the Turks committed genocide on the Armenians.

    Of course,the political will to intervene was just not there as the Western Powers competed for influence in the ME,siding with whoever controlled access to the oil.Our brethren were sacrificed for temporary geo political gain.

    Nowadays its a different story.With a Europe,supposedly adhering to Judeo Christianic values,suffering increasing Islamic encroachment and an America castrated by its Islamophile President,its no wonder these monsters feel emboldened to vent their inferiority complex on the local Christian minorities.

    These murderers should be too afraid to persecute the Christians for fear of reprisals from what is still the greatest power the world has ever seen.

    How hard would it be to create safe havens for the beleagured Christians in their homelands and what a great message it would send to the rest of the world.Quite simply,we will protect our own.

    How perverse that we have this abominable situation whilst welcoming millions of hostile muslims who will,given numbers,attempt the same genocide here.

    And feeble Cameron will deny until he’s blue in the face that these abominations have anything to do with religion.

    Its not only the right thing to do to put a stop to this,its the best strategic answer to the growing tide of extremism.

    • Bonkim

      You appear to be fomenting the next Crusade. Doubt if you understand what true Christianity is – to you just a political symbol.

      • Keith D

        Rubbish.I’m advocating we do the right thing to avoid the atrocities perpetrated against Christians.Did you miss the “safe haven” suggestion?

        Of course you didn’t.But your agenda is and I quote “Christians have been persecuting others for centuries, time the tables were turned.”.

        Of course providing a safe haven would put a halt to that.Shame on you.

        • Bonkim

          Are you not worried about the tens of thousands being butchered by Assad and his henchmen? Just a handful of Christians? To be fair if saving people was your objectives – best to bomb Assad and then establish safe havens for the various groups battling each other. The main task is to get rid of the main cause – Christians supporting a murderous tyrant have made them targets of equally bigoted Islamic factions – that is what happens in civil wars – others get caught up.

          • Keith D

            The clue is in the heading and sub heading of the article.”The war on Christians”. And “The global persecution of Christians is the unreported catastrophe of our time”.NOT Syria.

            Which is what I commented on.
            That doesnt mean I’m not concerned about other persecuted peoples.
            Unlike yourself who thinks its” time the tables were turned”.

            You really need to rethink that statement.

          • Bonkim

            I am just a bystander looking at the events unfurling – and all this could have been predicted.

          • Rebel Druid

            In the case of Syria’s Christian population I think the phrase ‘better the devil you know’ applies.

            The Christians in Syria probably get something of a rough ride because Al-Assad’s government is Muslim; that is to be expected. On the other hand the Christians realise they’d probably have it a lot worse if these mujahideen who’ve stormed the country toppled Al-Assad and took power.

          • Bonkim

            Regrettably that is how democracy works. Tyrannies need to be toppled and if that is replaced by a bigoted theocracy – that is history. Christians in Syria should opt to oppose the regime and they will have some leverage when Assad is toppled.

            That may not answer all the problems but reality is – minorities are everywhere at the mercy of the majority all over the world and our liberal norms don’t run everywhere.

      • You talk as if the Crusades were bad. They were a RESPONSE to 300 years of repeated hideously violent, expansionist aggressions by muslims.

        You’ll be bitching next about the joint American/British fleet which bombed Algiers to dust in 1815. Those poor Algerians. What on earth did they do to merit that? Surely their 300 years of slaving-expeditions where they went and captured 1 million white christians across the mediterranean and as far as Iceland was not so bad. They would not stop their slaving because the Koran TELLS them such actions are moral.

        IMO the only lamentable thing about the Crusades is that they did not wipe islam off the face of the earth.

        • Bonkim

          Hello Petra – assume you are talking about the bombardment of Algiers 1986 by an Anglo-Dutch fleet. Also that it is OK transporting millions of African slaves to work in the New World which has been going n from early Spanish times subsequently taken over by the British slaving fleet. People traffic one way, and plantation produce on the return voyages.

          People become expansionist when they have technology and economic power – what is new, not because they are Muslims or Christians or some other religionists. So examine your motives and exaggerated numbers of white slaves.

          Seriously if you look back even further, the Vikings were the first white-slavers and the markets of the Mediterranean provided good markets for their wares.

          Slavery continued even after Wilberforce and the abolition, many were shipped as indentured servants in British slave ships from various parts of Asia and Africa. Look up also the history of the English, and Dutch East India Companies and the skulduggery, arms, slave and drug running they were engaged in.

          White slavery continued but under the control of European merchants – where there is a demand supply fills the need. That is free enterprise for you.

          • “that it is OK transporting millions of African slaves to work in the New World plantations which has been going on from early Spanish times subsequently taken over by the British slaving fleet.”

            You mean the Atlantic slave trade by Spain and Portugal, countries which had endured 700 years of islamisation?

            Whilst the UN Declaration of Human Rights outlaws slavery, the muslim world has rejected it and put the Cairo Declaration above universal human rights, i.e. the muslim world has put sharia law above the UN Declaration. And under sharia law, slavery is legal.

            The muslim world was involved in slave-trading from the time of Mohammed onwards. Even after the formation of the UN, muslim countries were still involved in slaving (a UN report even stated that under islamic law slavery was legal).

            Muslims in Mauritania and Sudan still take non-muslims as slaves to this very day.

          • Bonkim

            You are now blaming the Spanish and Portuguese and their Islamisation for that evil, and also poor British merchants and ship owners being corrupted when they went along and took the slave trade over. Come again Petra I don’t mind propaganda but your slip is showing.

            Of course the evils of slavery continues and no one is suggesting the world adopts Sharia – two evils don’t make a Holy-Cow. Of course present day Islam and the many countries that espouse it are still living in their middle-ages mindsets – the only answer is to be steadfast in the disciplines established by the West now for a century and particularly after the ravages of WW2 when lessons were learnt and moves to liberate mankind initiated. It is a slow process and societies in many parts of the world continue to harbour evil Genies and sending gun boats is out of fashion and not within the capabilities of most – even the the US is getting shy of meddling in other people’s wars of liberation which they jumped in too often in the past.

            The main way forward is for the beleagured minorities to fight for their survival – and they have to adapt and change to their evolving surroundings – same as Muslim newcomers are having to adapt and change in the West where they have migrated to in recent decades. Adapt or perish that is nature in the raw.

          • “You are now blaming the Spanish and Portuguese and their Islamisation for that evil”

            Yes. And for the Inquisition. And the horrors inflicted by Vlad Tepes.

            “Muslim newcomers are having to adapt and change in the West where they have migrated to in recent decades. Adapt or perish that is nature in the raw.”

            Surveys (done by “moderate muslims”) show the reverse of you Panglossian delusion. Younger muslims in Britain are 2x to 3x more fundamentalist than their parents generation.

            Hibz ut Tahrir, which proposes an end to democracy, the implementation of apartheid, dictatorship by muslims and sharia law, was throughout the 1990s and this century, getting 8k to 10k muslims paying and travelling across Britain to attend their conferences. If the BNP could get an equal number of white Nazis to match those muslim Nazis, the BNP would have been holding conferences with 200k in attendance. Instead, the BNP holds its conferences above pubs. Hizb ut Tahrir were drawing 10k muslim nazis from a population that was less than 3% of the UK population.

            The policies of Hizb ut Tahrir are now espoused by around 20 national muslim organisations in Britain.

            Keep on taking your happy pills.

          • Bonkim

            No dispute with what you say – many younger generation Muslims are even more bigoted than earlier generation and also Muslims in other countries with substantial Muslim populations. Is that because the west offers them freedoms whereas in many other countries, any rebellion against the establishment attracts swift retribution. just look at the situation in Egypt or Pakistan or india where Muslims are often at the receiving end.

            Now not sure what you are getting at – I thought you were talking about Islam causing the Conquistadores/Catholic Churches to extract vengeance on the native Americans whom they exterminated. Are you suggesting Islamic bigotry and discrimination/extermination of non-believers somehow justifies Christian atrocities on the American Indians or that the sectarian killings in Europe are somehow caused by the Moorish conquest of the Iberian Peninsula?

            Lost the plot.

          • I’m stating that the only way for non-violent people to survive in the face of islam (the religion of war and subjugation) is to abandon principles of peace and tolerance and to resist the muslim aggression using similar tactics and violence. Islam corrupts. The Iberians were corrupted by 700 years of islamisation, reduced to behaving like the muslim invaders. The same applies to Vlad Tepes.

            Islam corrupts. Look at Pakistan. http://4freedoms.com/page/pakistan-failed-state The supposed cause of islamic violence and terrorism claimed by the liberal-left apologists for islam, is “the invasion of muslim lands”. Yet Pakistan is an islamic state with by far the greatest amount of islamic terrorism and hatred anywhere in the world. India suffers terribly from having an islamic state as a neighbour.

            The tolerance of the europeans will soon expire. And when the civil wars come, we will see genocide on a scale that will make the Yugoslavian and northern Irish conflicts look like nothing. That is where we are going, and at least 40% of the British public know that.

          • Bonkim

            Agree with quite a lot of what you say – and violence begets violence. Didn’t realise people of Europe (assuming you mean they are Christians) are non-violent.

            You will also find the bulk of victims from islam-inspired violence in the countries you refer to are other Muslims. Nobody apologises for Islamic violence, equally it would be silly to tar all Muslims by the terrorist brush.

            Your comments would not be misplaced coming from an American Indian at the receiving end of Paleface extermination squads. But then that is how human societies turn out and all through history.

    • Robert Mitchum

      I am glad you mentioned the Armenians. The Assyrian Christians were also slaughtered at that time as well as many Greeks – all courtesy of the Ottoman Muslims. Until recently (it may still be the case) it was a criminal offence for anyone in Turkey to mention these atrocities.

  • vdftryttujyujyuju

    LibLabCon are only concerned with the muslims being treated as the dominant culture in the UK

    Sign petition for UKIP to participate in the 2015 TV General
    Election Debates, over 24,000 have already signed. Please blog, tweet, facebook


  • conservativenaturalist

    I’d imagine that something like ‘religious persecution’ (especially globally) is extremely difficult to measure.

    • Bonkim

      Those taking sides don’t need statistical support. Minorities are the first target in any civil unrest situation as either they don’t take sides (persecuted by both) or take sides (persecuted by the other). Regrettably that is the result of centuries old voluntary apartheid. The criticism of Christian minorities in Islamic and other lands is the same we hear of Muslim and other minorities in Britain, Europe or other parts of the world some of which persecute Muslims and Christians both – groups living apart and having strange cultures and lifestyles, not like us and hence to be feared or shunned.

      Don’t you see the echoes of some of the posts here with say the voice of the Golden Dawn in Greece?

  • So why is this, then?

    Why don’t the buggers like us? Do we go about hurting people, then?

    Can anybody, er, sort of, say what the problem is?

    • crosscop


  • Fasdunkle

    In the west we have become befuddled and cowed by the politics of racism – to speak out against the persecution of christians is racist, neo-colonialist, imperialist etc. To speak out against the persecutors is racist, neo-colonialist, imperialist etc.

    Until we grow a backbone christians will continue to be persecuted and their persecutors and their ideologies will be welcomed and given succour.

  • Bonkim

    Minorities always suffer in civil conflict situations. The world today is in turmoil and whether Christian, Muslim or others, you just cannot save a handful here and another handful there. Religion as ethnicity and language have divided human societies, and historically created wars and civil conflict. Minority religious or ethnic groups have always segregated themselves from mainstream and consequently suffered. Doubt if there is a solution except longer term education and people recognizing and accepting the differences. One thing missed out from the report is that persecution and sectarian conflict is not just harming Christian minorities but all religious, and ethnic minorities across the globe. Most of the comments relate to protecting only a fraction of the victims of persecution.

  • Fasdunkle

    The muslims have the OIC who seek to empower islam all over the world and shut down criticism of it while maintaining the supremacism of islam in muslim countries. Do christians have a similar organisation?

    • Robert Mitchum

      That photo you post of Tom Baker reminds me of the time I bumped into him in the cashiers at Television Centre. He was wearing his full Dr Who regalia and I thought he’d be arrogant and attention-seeking like so many of them were. Au contraire, he turned to me and started chatting away and was utterly charming. Your photo is just how he looked that day. You have chosen well. A real gentleman.

      • I grew up with Tom as Dr. Who. My whole life he has been the measure of the perfect man. Alas, never met one to match him.

  • Austin Barry

    The cartoon at the top is excellent, and the face forming the bottom of the mushroom cloud is the stark image of every Christian’s fears.

  • TRAV1S

    Why should anyone be shocked about the non reporting of persecution of Christians. The 20thC saw the largest persecution of Christians since the time Dioclecian. This was due to the rise of Atheistic Marxist Socialist regimes in Spain, Mexico and the Soviet Union. After the war this spread to Eastern Europe, China, Cuba, Cambodia, N Korea (where they execute Christians by using steam rollers). Yet the media never reported this. Strangely enough at this time Christians were safe in the secular Muslim world.

    But lets face it the Metropolitan Liberal elite who control large parts of the MSM especially the BBC hate Christians. The BBC put out a headline “Christians Clash with Muslims” and when you read the article it was you found out that Boko Haram entered a church and massacred the congregation.

    Over in America Obama is wailing about those Buddhist fundamentalists who protect themselves from Jihad in Burma. Have to admit those Buddhist don’t f**k about. Not a peep out of Obama about what is happening to the Christians of the Middle East.

    • Fasdunkle

      where in the secular muslim world?

      • Rebel Druid

        600 or so years in the future, perhaps?

      • Bonkim

        rooted out.

    • Augustus

      “Not a peep out of Obama about what is happening to the Christians of the Middle East.”

      Obama has even offered weapons to the murderers of Christians in Syria. And these extremists like nothing better than to grab hold of a Christian, particularly a priest, and go about beheading them with simple kitchen knives, after which the heads are placed on top of the bodies while a frenzy of Muslim onlookers gather round drawing out their smartphones to capture the bloody scenes, all the while chanting Allahu Akbar with the greatest of jihadi rapture. A homicidal Satanic cult of evil if ever there was one.

      • mrsjosephinehydehartley

        I don’t know about homicidal satanic cults – but surely there can be nothing merciful about pandering to fame.

    • Rebel Druid

      “The 20thC saw the largest persecution of Christians since the time
      Dioclecian. This was due to the rise of Atheistic Marxist Socialist
      regimes in Spain, Mexico and the Soviet Union.”

      I think you’re failing to point out the difference between a state which specifically singles Christians out for persecution and a state which persecutes people of multiple faiths simply because they’re religious.

      Marx said “Religion is the opiate of the masses”. He meant >allanyone< because of their religious beliefs (or how yours tell you to see them) is unacceptable.

  • Here’s a graphic to show the scale of islamic terrorism in Pakistan since 2001 (total deaths). Muslims and their fascist Left enablers complain that it is because of aggressive wars by non-muslim nations that produces islamic terrorism. Yet where they have an islamic state bordering on a lot of non-muslims, we see they are the worst terrorists of all.


    • Rebel Druid

      “Muslims and their fascist Left enablers”

      “fascist left” is a contradiction in terms. Fascism is a right-wing ideology; the opposite of socialism.

      • “”fascist left is a contradiction in terms”

        No. it isn’t. For years, Mussolini was the editor of the largest socialist newspaper in Spain. At Mussolini’s execution, his Leninist acolyte shouted “Long Live Mussolini. Long Live Socialism”.

        If you bother to read the 1919 Fascist Manifesto, you will see it is a socialist manifesto. http://www.conservapedia.com/Fascist_Manifesto,_1919 The Labour Party in the UK did not introduce some of those socialist policies until the end of the 20th century – they were considered too leftwing and progressive.

        I’d expect a pedant to actually go and read such stuff, rather than taking pre-digested opinions from school-teachers.

        You’ll be telling us next that the National Socialists were not socialists. Even though Hitler wanted to nationalise the financial industry. Nationalisation is a policy that was considered the sine qua non of socialist parties throughout the 20th century. http://www.historyplace.com/worldwar2/riseofhitler/25points.htm

        Like Mussolini, Hitler was advocating the same kinds of progressive policies we associate with the Labour Party. The truly fascist Left in Britain are organisations like the SWP/UAF, who not only adopt those progressive policies, but who also want to curtail freedom of speech as much as possible.

        • Rebel Druid

          Ah yes, Conservapedia, that well-spring of impartiality and accuracy… *rolls eyes*

          The same Conservapedia that would have us all believe that Hitler was a communist who hated communists and pinned the blame for the Reichstag fire on the communists so he could shut down the communist party.

          The Labour party in Britain was a centre-left party; right of the Liberal Democrats and left of the Conservative party. They’ve shifted in a rightish direction in more recent years thanks to the ‘shining influence’ of Blair and ‘New Labour’.

          And no, I don’t think the National Socialists were socialists at all; Hitler just nationalised businesses to give himself complete control and to keep the Jews from influencing what would become the German war machine.

          And the ‘Nazis are socialists because their party had the word ‘socialist’ in the name’ argument is so unbelievably stupid. Do you know the full title of North Korea? The Democratic People’s Republic of Korea. Look it up. I guess by your logic North Korea is a democracy.

          Oh, and let’s not forget the simple idea that American politics have always been slightly more right-wing by default when compared to European politics. So I guess you can honestly

          from the OED:

          fascism the authoritarian form of government in Italy 1922-1943, characterised by extreme nationalism, militarism, anti-communism and restrictions on individual freedom.

          fascist: a member of the ruling party of Italy from 1922-1943, or a similar party elsewhere; an exponent or supporter of Fascism or (loosely) anyone with extreme right-wing, nationalistic, etc views

          • No point in debating with you. The link I provided hosts the actual Fascist Party manifesto. But because you don’t approve of a URL, you don’t bother to read a document from history. You really are a stupid person, who deserves to wallow in his own faeces.

            I have pointed out the POLICIES of these parties. And you think you can ignore all that. Ta ta, chump.

          • Colonel Mustard

            “We are socialists, we are enemies of today’s capitalistic economic system for the exploitation of the economically weak, with its unfair salaries, with its unseemly evaluation of a human being according to wealth and property instead of responsibility and performance, and we are determined to destroy this system under all conditions.” (Adolf Hitler)

          • Colonel Mustard

            “The Labour party in Britain was a centre-left party; right of the Liberal Democrats and left of the Conservative party.”


        • Bonkim

          Quite right Petra – in principle both Hitler and Mussolini were for the masses and give their respective people the basics in material and also ideological cohesion – both not from the elite classes, hated big business although mobilising the Barons to their purpose and most German and Italians for a time believed their cause and that a new dawn had come.

          Hitler also had a pact with the USSR – and looked after his folk – so in a way a socialist. The anti-Jewish / anti intellectual and moneyed classes was an essential component of popular socialism – in some ways Islam is also a socialist faith – universal brotherhood of man, sharing ones wealth with those that don’t have the basics, etc, etc.

          Germans across the land believed in their unity of purpose and went along, worked hard, and followed the commands of the Fuhrer – that would not work in a class-ridden capitalist culture. It did for a while in the USSR which was also a sort of universal nationalism of the proletariat – and their rearmament and victory in WW2 proves it works. Encouraged education and enlightened intellectualism as well and all religions – Islam included were kept out of their extreme bigotry – considering that much of Central Asian Republics are Islamic and that even today sectarian conflict low key but now increasing due to contagion from Syria, Lebanon, Quatar, etc.

          Perhaps the world is marching into another ideological war – the 20th century being kept busy with communism.

        • crosscop

          Mussolini edited a paper in Spain?

      • crosscop

        Fascism was founded by Mussolini – editor of a Socialist newspaper and member of the Italian Socialist Party.

    • Bonkim

      Hi Petra – have you counted the Muslim and other dead during the same period? Pakistan is Asia’s badlands and anything goes. Christians are not a protected species and have to take their chances in the shoot out.

  • zanzamander

    Ever since Obama became US president attacks on Christians (and non-Muslims) mainly in the Muslim world has intensified. Even today, when Christians are reeling under the attacks in Pakistan, Egypt, Nigeria, Philippines, Indonesia, Syria etc. Obama was telling off the Burmese for attacking Muslims!

    Obama’s Presidential reign has spelt disaster for non-Muslims.

    • Fasdunkle

      The US is in hock to the Saudis – and frankly if any senior western politician says anything which isn’t entirely positive about islam there will be murder and destruction on an enormous scale. Which is why whenever the latest islamic atrocity takes place western politicians are queuing up to tell us it has nothing to so with islam – they even misquote the koran (and no muslim picks them up on it)

  • zanzamander

    20 Obama Quotes About Islam Contrasted With 20 Obama Quotes About Christianity:


    No wonder Christians across the Muslim world are living in fear of their lives.

  • zanzamander

    Being a Jew, Christian, Hindu, Buddhist or Jain, you are supposed to respect other people’s faiths, however being the follower of the Mohammad, you can, must, do everything in your power to make the life of a kuffar hell.

    You see the problem here?

    • EdwinDroom

      Being a Christian means you should respect other PEOPLE, but the Bible isn’t exactly replete with commands to respect other FAITHS – “No one can come to the father but by me” in the New Testament, and a lot of sharp critique at least in the old – You shall have no other gods before me, for example. Which makes sense – if there is a God, it’s unlikely he’d take too kindly to people worshipping a false deity.

      • Bonkim

        Well said EdwinDroom.

    • Bonkim

      No problem – everyone has a choice – all religions – the Bible included profess their’s is the one true God – so your statement about respect for other Gods and religions is not a commandment from god and you are an apostate.

      Most Muslims, and some fundamentalist Christians take the ‘one and only true God’ concept to heart and do not respect all others as others’ are false Gods.

      You just cannot have multiple true Gods in a unitarian religion – which Christianity, Jdaism, and Islam are all supposed to be.

  • Fasdunkle

  • crosscop

    I take it the big bloke with the nuclear turban in the cartoon is Mohammad. Risky…

  • allymax bruce

    John, I want you to open your mind, and think about each question I ask; then link them all together to find your answer.
    1), what is the only religion of God, that is peaceful?
    2), what other aggressive religions of God want to blow each other to bits?
    3), what is the most powerful, (National armaments of WMD), religion in the world?
    4), how do the aggressive nations, get the peaceful nations, to use these weapons of mass destruction?

    Your answer must link all three questions, making five words; in thus, your answer lays.

  • Rebel Druid

    The writer of the article wrote: “According to the International Society for Human Rights, a secular
    observatory based in Frankfurt, Germany, 80 per cent of all acts of
    religious discrimination in the world today are directed at Christians.”

    There’s something I’m curious about: what does the ISRHR constitute as an act of persecution? Is it restricted only to acts of violence? Does it include trivial things such as Christians not being permitted to wear cross necklaces at work?

    Also, what proportion of these persecutions occur in countries which are similarly hostile to other religious groups at the same time? In Muslim countries and totalitarian socialist countries that proportion will probably be quite high.

    In cases like that it isn’t a case of Christians being targeted because they’re Christians; they’re being targeted because they believe differently. There is a world of difference between this and the writer’s intent to make it seem as if Christianity alone is under assault.

    • Daniel Maris

      Do you play Twister? I think you’d be very good at it, seeing the knots you are twisting yourself into, in addressing this subject.

  • John Clegg

    Please, please don’t answer or respond to this cretin ‘Bonkim’, who by the way hasn’t got the courage to use his own name. He’s just loving the attention you are all giving him.

    Responses to him also stifle sensible comments about the real issues at stake.

    • Bonkim

      Sense – depends on ones intellect, and prejudices – most posts here are one sided, bigoted not unlike the Islamic variety..

  • black11hawk

    Christendom is dead, these people can expect no help from the West. Indeed The Guardian today referred to the UK as part of the Islamic world:


    ….Shathri, who travels frequently to the UK and elsewhere in the Islamic world to lecture, said.

    • Christianity has been destroyed by its spineless Liberal clergy. They attack issues like gay marriage, then lie to their flock about islam being a religion of peace.

  • Jon Denzil Kerrin

    I agree with you fully that there is a sharp rise in Christian persecution across the globe today… it is undeniable. I do however think that it is unfortunately a result of Christians themselves (both in modern times and historically).

    I know we can’t paint all Christian persecution around the globe with the same brush, but if we look at Christian persecution happening in the Middle East and Arab regions, the attacks aren’t a reaction to Christianity, but rather against Westernism and secularism (ideologies that of full of corruption, greed and selfishness). These are things associated with Christianity, and quite frankly things that Christianity (through Western expansion) invented. It is very sad that Eastern Christians are taking the fall for Western Christians shortcomings.

    I don’t think such reactions and killings against Christians is justified, not even in the slightest. But I do think the persecution against Eastern Christians should awaken Western Christians not to pointing blame at whoever is killing them, but rather to looking at ourselves and realising that what the persecutors are reacting against is something that is non-Christ-like at all.

    Maybe by changing ourselves, and not associating ourselves with these other ideologies will help stop the violence against Christians around the world.

    We should never forget the Christianity still holds all the negative baggage it has accumulated over the centuries.

    • UglyTooth

      “We should never forget the Christianity still holds all the negative baggage it has accumulated over the centuries.”

      …done largely by people ignoring scripture. I realize it’s tough to divorce the worst practitioners from the faith itself, but it really must be done, unless we’re going to start being allowed to denounce all schools of human thought based on the actions of fanatics–which arise in any human endeavor.

    • meqmac

      Two things. One, Muslim mistreatment and persecution of Christians goes back to the 8th century. It has nothing to do with Westernism and secularism. Today, when the Saudi government bans Bibles, what has that to do with secularism. Two, please don’t forget that Westernism and secularism (beginning in the late 18th century) has brought Muslim countries advances in areas like democracy (though they aren’t very good at it), technological advances, economic improvements, education, entertainment, book printing, the internet and so on, which a majority of Muslims are very happy with. I don’t deny that the things you mention play a part, but modern Islam is still an intensely religious force. Most of the time the problems stem from a refusal to accept the inevitability of change (in women’s rights, for example) because thinking is fixed in a religious mould.

      • Bonkim

        meqmac – much of the Islamic world is still stuck culturally in the dark ages when Islam originated – and there are many Christians that hark back to Old Testament Christianity which was not dissimilar.

    • Bonkim

      You speak a lot of sense Jon – but are the majority here prepared to listen to reason? Many here sound no different to the Islamic bigots that perpetrate the atrocities on Christians, and others.

  • rlhailssrpe

    The chicken or the egg arguments, “Who threw the first stone?”, in the comments are futile. What can be said, with certainty, is that the international press is a failure. They report a cat up a tree, but ignore any story on Christian suffering. The second truth is that the UN is a failure. They too ignore that millions are being slaughtered today.

    Americans who are educated, comprehend why the very first Amendment to our Constitution prohibited any law which established a religion. The framers were well aware of the blood split in “the old country” over religious hatreds. We have killed a lot of people in combat, but never because of their religion. It is worthy of consideration in other nations, who persecute Christians as policy.

  • TeamRed_vs_TeamBlue

    This is your brain on religion, folks. Get used to it.

    • UglyTooth

      What a fantastic example of missing the point, and blaming the victims.

      • TeamRed_vs_TeamBlue

        If they have to believe in invisible Sky Fairies, against all reason, then they should expect to be mocked, or worse.

        The solution is simple. They should switch sides and dump Imaginary Friend A for Imaginary Friend B. That way the Religion Of Peace will leave them alone, and they still get to worship an invisible Sky Fairy.

        Problem solved.

  • John Faraday

    I am an Anglican clergyman in Manchester. I am British and have always lived in England, but I know several Pakistani Christians in this country. I also have friends in Pakistan, having visited Pakistan in 2005 and in May this year.

    On behalf of my Christian friends in Pakistan I say a big ‘Thank you’ to The Spectator for publishing this article. It is amazing that the recent bombing in Peshawar received so little attention in the media in this country. The fact that it is unreported here is very discouraging to the ones suffering persecution, and encouraging to the ones who cause the problems.

    I also believe that the persecutions will never destroy the Church. It is historical fact that times of persecution are usually times when then Christian faith grows in numbers and in depth.

    May God bless Christians under persecution.

    Rev. John Faraday.

    • Bonkim

      Rev Farady, tragic outrage I am sure – but do you also feel for the hundreds and thousands on non-Christians also persecuted and killed in ethnic, sectarian and class conflicts that are endemic in these regions.

      Bombings and shootings are an everyday feature in Pakistan in addition to other forms of criminality. Poverty and ignorance and blind religion haunt these parts of the world. It is not only Christians that are persecuted/martyred.

    • anotherjoeblogs

      yes, God bless Christians under persecution and God bless you rev.

  • Bantu_Education

    “nor black in the 1980s to be outraged by the Apartheid regime in South Africa,…” at which point I stopped reading the article.

    There was nothing to be “outrageous” about with apartheid – any outrage was manufactured and manipulated and exaggerated by useful idiot loony leftist cultural marxists. Apartheid was never malevolent in its nature – it was necessary to protect whites without whom S.Africa would never have been developed into the richest country in Africa. Anyone truly concerned with the welfare of blacks – and not obsessed with ideological mantras – should have supported a white-ruled S.Africa.

    • Matt Moran

      Wow, living in a different time aren’t we? Yeah, there is nothing outrageous obout legally treating people of different skin color differently? Exactly, how is that defensible?

    • FA Miniter

      You were not outraged at the hit squads run by the Apartheid government, led, at one time, for instance, by Dirk Coetzee, who confess his role, including the murders of student activist Sizwe Khondile and human rights lawyer Griffiths Mxenge? Or the torture camps the government operated?

      You were not outraged at the Boipatong Massacre of June 17, 1992? Or the Sharpeville Massacre of 1960? Or by the assassinations carried out by Eugene de Kock? Or the tortures perpetrated by Security Police Lt. Stephan Whitehead? Or the murders of 5 sleeping teenagers by a government hit squad days before de Klerk received his Nobel Peace Prize? And this is the tip of the iceberg.

      You seem to have forgotten that much of this was openly confessed in the Truth and Reconciliation Hearings.

      • Bantu_Education

        You seem to have been so well indoctrinated by the lying liberal media that you cannot now think for yourself – nevertheless….

        The Boipatong “Massacre” was just another case of rival black gangs slaughtering each other and like many others was blamed on the (non-existent) “3rd force”. Of course they trotted out a black or two who said “white men” were there but thats the only “evidence” and, faced with the option of a necklace for “collaborating” (which would include “not collaborating” with the ANC) who would dare refuse.

        As for Sharpeville – funny how everyone remembers that one, yet it was so long ago and worse police atrocities occur almost monthly in black Africa yet go unreported. But whites are held to a higher standard are they not? Anyway, I doubt that you would know that just a few weeks earlier in the “Cato Manor” incident 10 policemen in a similar situation were trapped and slaughtered by a black mob, so that kinda focussed those guys similarly trapped at Sharpeville. Yes they were trapped if you would care to read the original news reports and not the distorted lies that became the “truth”. Incidentally it was a mixed group of black and white police at Cato Manor – the blacks begged the whites to start shooting their way out of the situation but the whites wanted to “negotiate” a peaceful solution.

        The so-called “Truth and Reconciliation Commission” was no more than a marxist-run kangaroo court that magnified the alleged crimes of the white govt whilst totally glossing over the much worse abuses committed by the so-called “freedom-fighters”.

        Finally regarding Sharpeville – Colonel Pienaar, who wasn’t at the scene but was in charge of the reinforcements, said to the committee of inquiry – “the native culture makes it impossible for them to gather for a peaceful protest – for them to gather for a protest it always results in violence”. And that, my outraged friend, is the bloody truth of the matter..!!

  • ErnieBanks

    great article – thank you for summarizing the scope of the problem

  • meqmac

    One of the great causes of media neglect of these issues is the conniving attitude that makes Islam the elephant in all our rooms. Muslims must never be accused of wrongdoing, or those who do wrong are dismissed largely as extremists who betray the true message of ‘the religion of peace’. The article says, in a similar vein, ‘anti-Christian violence is hardly limited to a ‘clash of civilisations’ between Christianity and Islam’ and makes much of Hindu or Buddhist or Communist attacks on Christian. Well, that’s all very well, but Islam is the only post-Christian religion to have a hostile attitude to Christians, to the New Testament, to Christian priests. Christians are kuffar, unbelievers who destiny is hellfire. Read the Qur’an, read the ahadith, read the commentaries, read the appropriate books of jurisprudence. Then look at Islamic history with regard to Christianity: the sack of Rome, the conquest of Byzantium, the conquests of of Sicily, the destruction of churches (or their being turned to mosques), the reduction of Christians to the status of dhimmis, constitutionally powerless, the pogroms, the steady wearing down of Christian communities, the decline of all Christian communities in Arab countries and other Muslim nations, the sneering, the hounding, the restrictions, the doctrine of ‘loyalty and enmity’ (to Islam, to the people of other religions). The other persecutions must not be neglected, and I’m grateful to the author for bring them to our attention. But at the forefront of Christian persecution must go the longstanding war of over 1400 years and the deeply-embedded dependence on scriptural sources that makes it easy for hardline Muslims, all the Salafis, Wahhabis, jihadis, and plain ordinary Muslims who have given over their ill-informed faiths in their weak hearts to shaykhs and imams and mullas and mujtahids and muftis who shame humanity – to depend on all those hardline types for reassurance, guidance and instruction. Ignore Islam at your peril, for it will survive and dominate in an age where religions lose their strength.

    • FA Miniter

      “Then look at Islamic history with regard to Christianity: the sack of
      Rome, the conquest of Byzantium, the conquests of of Sicily, the
      destruction of churches . . . ”

      Then look at Christian history with regard to Islam: the massacre by Christians of all Muslims in Jerusalem in the First Crusade in 1099; the Conquest of the Holy Land; the Re-Conquest of Spain, the expulsion or forced conversion of all Muslims in Spain in 1492, the destruction of mosques . . . .

      Careful about your righteousness.

      By the way, the “Sack of Rome” was a treasure hunt and the “Saracens” as they were then called never got within the walls of the city, spent only four days near Rome and were subsequently destroyed by a joint force.

      • AndrewMelville

        I believe that’s called fighting back against a violent attacker who continued to oppress those he had assaulted. Hardly fair to lump self defence, however vigorous, with the original assault.

        • FA Miniter

          The Reconquista of Spain occurred 700 years after the Moorish conquest. The Norman “reconquest” of Sicily occurred 300 years after the Moors took it. I am not sure if “fighting back” applies to such situations. If so, we have a lot to account for in America.

      • meqmac

        I do not deny Christian attacks on Islam (or on Jews, for that matter). I just want to point out that Muslim conquests succeeded in almost eliminating Christians from regions like North Africa, that the application of shari’a law repressed Christians (and Jews) for centuries (and continues to do so), and that Islam is consistently omitted from news reports, journal articles, television broadcasts. Islamic terrorism is talked about, but only as one-off episodes contrary to the ‘Religion of Peace’, a characteristic invented for modern propaganda purposes by us and by many Muslims. It is, in fact, demonstrably the most violent religion in history, with violence advocated in its scriptures and its laws. Yet if you or I were to suggest that the violent passages of the Qur’an should be suppressed and replaced by the early, peaceful verses, there would be riots the length and breadth of the Islamic world. But the future of mankind depends, in many ways, on our getting that right.

        • FA Miniter

          For the most part, Christianity has cleaned up its act. Islam is about 500 years behind Christianity in that regard. But just consider for a moment the heartfelt pleas of Bartolome de Las Casas to the Spanish people to stop the slaughter of the indigenous peoples of Central and South America. He estimated in his book, A Short History of the Destruction of the Indes, and in his longer work, Historia de Las Indias, (and most modern authorities agree) that in 20 years from 1519 to 1539, 20,000,000 native peoples were dead because of the Spanish invasion. And, of course, while the Spanish were doing this, the fratricidal Wars of the Reformation were taking down a similar number of Catholics and Protestants in Europe.

          I do not disagree that at present Islam is the most violent religion on the planet, but not necessarily in history. (See prior paragraph and don’t forget the Aztecs.) But I object to the inference drawn from that fact of the superiority of Christianity.

  • Pastor Bob Garment

    While we see martyrdom in the east, we are seeing a clear declaration of war against Christianity in the US as well. The Obama administration is reluctant to allow conscience related exceptions to his health plan insisting that even religious institutions provide abortion care. Opposition to same sex marriage can result in swift reprisals, and evangelical Christians are described as homeland terrorists. We in the west are far down the slippery slope to persecution.

    • Rebel Druid

      If an evangelical Christian bombs an abortion clinic and kills people is that not a terrorist attack? Or would it only be a terrorist attack if a Muslim did it?

      • Pastor Bob Garment

        How did we move from religious persecution to terrorism? If someone bombed a clinic claiming that he was acting as an Evangelical Christian, I would loudly declare that he is clearly NOT and Evangelical Christian since that violates the basic tents of the faith. Perhaps Muslims feel the same about Islamic terrorism. If so I wish they would say so loudly as well. The discussion topic here is about escalating assaults on a particular religion.

        • FA Miniter

          Maybe you did not notice, but in the next to last line or your original post, YOU linked Christians to terrorism. Rebel Druid just jumped on it.

      • crosscop

        If an evangelical Christian bombs an abortion clinic, yes it would be terrorism but it would also be an extremely rare event carried out by a nutter acting against the teachings of his religion. However, when a Muslim carries out a bombing he knows it is justified by his religion. Fighting against the unbelievers is a religious duty, according to the Koran.

    • FA Miniter

      The law does not grant favor to people by religious affiliation. That would not be equal protection under the law. And you have it wrong. If a religiously operated hospital has an emergency room, then they must be ready to provide all the emergency services of a public hospital. A rape victim taken to a Catholic hospital by an EMT team because it is closest should not be denied birth control protection. The hospital can close its emergency room and not face this issue, if it chooses.

      As to gays and lesbians, no one is forcing a priest to perform a marriage. And there are no reprisals.

      I often think that some Christians really, really wish there were reprisals so that they could justify their need to be persecuted. Sorry, but you are going to have to whip yourself. The rest of us will not do it for you.

  • Ronnie

    That vile Australian missionary was packed to his maker. That incident was absolutely right given that he was converting tribal people in Orissa in record numbers.

  • Steve Hopkins

    Of interest generally especially those who call themselves Christians……

  • Fish

    Bonkim is a freaking snot-slinger and should be ignored as the small minded bigot that he is.

    • Bonkim

      Most posts here are from bigots that only see their side of the story – takes some grit to look at such things from outside the box.

  • MyGoatyBeard

    80% of religious persecution is against Christians. Well that’s probably because:-
    1. Christianity is the most popular religion in the world
    2. Christianity is the least culturally-linked religion in the world.

    In other words, there are a lot of Christians, but also they crop-up in all sorts of cultures around the world, unlike most other religions which thrive on a cultural heritage. This is most obviously true for Islam which relies on ‘closed’ communities to maintain its hold over large populations.

    • Daniel Maris

      Logical Mr Spock, but unfortunately not actually true.

      • MyGoatyBeard

        I’m just quoting the article. Did you read it?

        “According to the International Society for Human Rights, a secular observatory based in Frankfurt, Germany, 80 per cent of all acts of religious discrimination in the world today are directed at Christians. Statistically speaking, that makes Christians by far the most persecuted religious body on the planet.”

    • FA Miniter

      80%? Are you sure of that? Have you taken into account the atrocities of Buddhists against Muslims in northwestern Myanmar? The attacks on Muslims by Hindus in western India? The ongoing attacks on Sufis by Sunnis in Pakistan and Iran? The attacks on Sufis in North Africa following the Arab Spring? The ongoing attacks on Shias by Sunnis in much of the Muslim world? The “ethnic cleansing” of Muslims by Christians in the former Yugoslavia throughout the 1990s? The fairly equal ongoing slaughter of Christian by Muslim and Muslim by Christian in northern Nigeria? The persecution of Buddhists by Christians in South Korea and Sri Lanka? The persecution of Buddhists by Muslims in Bangladesh (e.g., the 2012 Ramu violence)? The persecution of Buddhist monks in Myanmar following their protests of the military dictatorship in 2007? The persecution of anyone who appears Muslim by Christians in America since 2001?

      Do you have statistics that brought you to the 80% figure? Will you share them with us? You see, I think that you did not think before you posted.

      • cbinTH

        Don’t take it up with him, take it up with the International Society For Human Rights, as quoted in the article.

        Also, have the grace to admit that the article relates to an important issue; that we as a society are not, as a whole, imposing a narrative of anti-Christian persecution onto disparate events. Looking at these events from such a point of view has its disadvantages, but it is notable that the examples you gave indicate that you have thoughtlessly imbibed a rival narrative, one of worldwide anti-Muslim persecutions taking place, and being a single ‘issue’.

        That you would conflate the scale of religious prejudice in the USA to events elsewhere is pretty silly, while the mention of the persecution of Muslims in Burma is an example of what I tried to say in the paragraph above. The persecution of various Christian minorities in Burma is usually reported in the media as a case of racial hatred, whereas the persecution of the Rohingya was originally reported that way but is now widely reported simply as ‘anti-Muslim’ persecution. That is quite a disparity in portrayals, and one of the reasons the popularity of the ‘Muslims are being victimized’ narrative, which does of course get especially promoted by certain interested parties, such as PressTV.

      • MyGoatyBeard

        I just read the article. Perhaps you should too:-

        “According to the International Society for Human Rights, a secular observatory based in Frankfurt, Germany, 80 per cent of all acts of religious discrimination in the world today are directed at Christians. Statistically speaking, that makes Christians by far the most persecuted religious body on the planet.”

      • crosscop

        The majority of people who were ethnically cleansed in the former Yugoslavia were Serbs.

        • FA Miniter

          You have it exactly backwards. The Serbs were doing almost all of the killing of civilians, raping of women, and displacement of communities.

          • Bonkim

            and that included Catholic Croats and Slovenes – not just Bosnian Muslims. the Croatian death camps were as bad as thos in Bosnia.

          • crosscop

            It is you who has it exactly backwards. According to the 2011 census there were 186,633 ethnic Serbs living in Croatia. In the 1991 pre-war census there were 581,663 Serbs living in Croatia. Similar story in Kosovo. They were victims of ethnic cleansing.

  • Karen Barclay

    My local Bishop was expressing the same bewilderment about the lack of concern in the media for the massacres of Christians abroad… I’m not sure if our awareness would help… but we should at least try.

  • AugustineThomas

    Evil secularists. That’s why.

  • FelixKrull

    Good article, but some nitpicking: The Battle of the Bulge was not a ‘turning point’ in WWII, the war was all but over by then.

    • tom_atkins

      Indeed. It is rather a silly way to begin if you want people to take the rest of your article seriously. The Battle of the Bulge clearly was not the turning point of WW2. That was Stalingrad. And, even if it had been, how would journalists at the time have known?

  • tony

    Oh how I hate this, whatever religion you are generally you have no right to complain about atrocities against you considering you dished them out ten fold only a few hundred years earlier slaughtering hundreds of thousands of people, maybe what you should believe in is karma, maybe the young innocent children raped regularly by your officials could be taken in to account? I doubt very much that you will pull your head out of a book that destroyed lives for thousands of years anytime soon. Amazing to have my opinion but what will the believers of the so called good book send back?

    • crosscop

      Just one point – nobody alive today was involved in any of the atrocities committed hundreds of years ago. Thousands of Muslim are currently involved in those which are happening today.
      Anyone, anywhere, has the right to complain about being persecuted if they personally have not persecuted anyone themselves. And can you explain why the Muslim persecution of people like the Copts and Pakistani and Syrian Christians is in any way “karma”? What did they do to deserve it, other than not be Muslim?

      • Bonkim

        Quite right CRosscop – persecuting anyone for their faith is wrong – does not matter who the perpetrator and who the victim and when it has taken place in history. Don’t you think that there are other reasons for persecuting minorities and that their religion is simply a badge associated with those they hate. US and western activity has not endeared the West to many nations and Christianity is the most visible symbol. Islam much as Christianity was in earlier centuries is an extreme religion and much of old testament text can also apply to the Koran and its followers – most of the countries that persecution takes place are economically and socially still in the middle-ages, deep-seated social and class divisions, and the Christian converts are at the bottom of the heap along with the communities that are persecuting the Christians, many recent converts.

        I am not condoning persecution by anyone on anyone – simply pointing out that such situations are not a one way street. The same lot that firebombed the Church in Peshawar recently with a few score dead and maimed, have also carried out other terrorist acts killing hundreds of Muslims, and Hindus across Pakistan. That is the nature of Pakistan and its fragmented ethnic and sectarian divide. Western/Christian values of equality, fairness, tolerance, and rule of law just do not apply in that environment. People are poor, exploited and the slightest spark sets the place on fire.

        You can look at all the other trouble spots including Russia, and many other Christian countries where although the scale is much smaller, those from other faiths than the dominant one have hard time. Life is tough and not fair and sending gun-boats is out of fashion.

    • maxime1793

      Ten fold? Do you know what you’re talking about? Young children raped by whom? If that is a reference to the Catholic Church, you think everyone is Catholic?

      I guess because you heard some Catholics in Massachusetts did some bad things, then Syrian Orthodox should be raped and murdered. That makes a lot of sense!

  • William Ronald (RON) JACKS.

    The position of western people is simple it is not in my back yard so why should i be concerned it will never happen in my Church/Country,Could it be the leaders of our Churches should stand up and shout about it and preach the faith they hold, and give our political leaders a sharp kick to do the JOB they are paid for.

    • Bonkim

      Most people in the West are no longer Church-going Christians, religion does not control human behaviour any more – Christianity as part of a sense of national identity is dead in most of the Western world – religion still part of state identity in many parts of the world especially the Islamic kind – and they are still stuck in a middle-ages time warp – are you calling the reformed and enlightened West to regress into the dark ages of sectarianism simply to mirror what the Muslims are doing?

  • SouthOhioGipper

    When are Christians going to start standing up for themselves by forming groups of their own? Where are the Christian warriors who will guard and protect their churches and people?

    The Jews learned the hard way. If you don’t pick up a weapon and fight, you could end up in a gas chamber.

    It is time for Christians to form their own cells, their own martyr brigades, and declare their own Holy War. A Holy and Just war based in self defense of Christians. There needs to a well funded volunteer Christian Army raised and trained in counter terrorism and guerrilla war and to fight the Muslim Horde on its own terms iineach nation where Christians are being cleansed.

    When are weapons going to be smuggled in to Christians under siege so they can actually fight back as an organized force, like the Muslims, and protect their women, children, property and Faith? I don’t mean a Government either. I mean Christian churches in the West buying weapons and smuggling themselves. I’m talking about guns right next to the bibles being smuggled in.

    Just like the last Rambo movie when Rambo asked the christian preacher if he was smuggling weapons and the preacher took offense and said absolutely not and Rambo said “Then you aint changing a thing.”

    As far as admonishment against violence. Either get violent or watch your duaghter and wives raped and killed or taken as wife by some Heathen Muslim. No Just God wants his flock to be exterminated, raped and pillaged. He will accept a new self defensively violent Christianity. Jews learned, Christians should too.

    • maxime1793

      Well, let’s see, Rambo…

      “Where are the Christian warriors who will guard and protect their churches and people?”
      —In Syria, they do have local militias and otherwise join the regular Syrian Army. In Lebanon, they had many militias in the Civil War of the 70s and 80s, but that didn’t go very well, did it?

      “The Jews learned the hard way. If you don’t pick up a weapon and fight, you could end up in a gas chamber.”
      —Well, actually Jews were about 0.8% of Germany and 5-15% of different regions in East Poland and the Ukraine that were occupied. I am sure some Jews did shoot at German soldiers, but they were not exactly in a position to do anything but get killed, unless you think there were supposed to be thousands of Jewish rambos who could take out 100 trained soldiers each…

      I know some Jews resented having been in this defenceless position, so they took their anger out on … other people. That really isn’t the lesson to take from the Holocaust, either.

      “It is time for Christians to form their own cells, their own martyr brigades, and declare their own Holy War”
      —Tell me, then, is it going to fight the Saudis armed by the Americans, the Qataris, the Kuwaitis, the Turks, the CIA, MI6, or any of the other funders of Islamist terror? Or is it just going to scream about how Islam as a whole is evil and not distinguish between different groups so that it continues to be manipulated by the aforementioned forces?

      “When are weapons going to be smuggled in to Christians under siege so they can actually fight back as an organized force”
      —When you stop electing Democrats and Republicans, Tories and Labour.

      “I mean Christian churches in the West buying weapons and smuggling themselves.”
      —It is against Church canons to actively participate in violence.

      “Just like the last Rambo movie when Rambo asked the christian preacher”
      —Rambo is fiction.

      “Either get violent or watch your duaghter and wives raped and killed or taken as wife by some Heathen Muslim”
      —It would suffice to get politically vigilant and recall and vote out politicians who fund Islamist terror. If you stop giving them weapons and stop permitting the Gulf Arab perverts to give them weapons, they won’t win any battles. Advocating global jihad against all Islam misses the point and is likely to be manipulated by the same forces currently allying with the Islamists – since stupid people will be (and already are) unable to differentiate between an Assad and a Bin Laden.

      • Bonkim

        But are you really a Christian or simply a nationalist rising to the call of group solidarity? True Christians have nothing to do with politics or armed groups.

    • Bonkim

      You appear to be a hate monger – gun-toting Christian that knows little of Christianity.

      • SouthOhioGipper

        I’m not a christian. I’m simply an interested outside observer, and I see Christianity getting its ass kicked on a daily basis. Its hard to respect the meek, and the chances of them inheriting this Earth are about zilch.

        • Bonkim

          Many other religious or ethnic minorities are being persecuted/killed in much greater numbers than Christians in many parts of the world.

          Regrettably oppression of minorities has not gone away despite the growing affluence and superficially more liberal legal environment prevailing.

          World populations are exploding, resources depleting fast and you are right – the meek will not inherit the earth, and given time even the strong and aggressive would have had their day. We will all be history at the rate we are multiplying and consuming the earth.

  • The Realist

    Christianity is the most manly religion. We pay the bills and still get dookied on constantly. Do we ever complain — Nope.

  • Emerson_C

    Allen is being optimistic when he says that the trend in places like the UK and the US to enforce anti-Christians laws on the basis of ‘equality’ are not based on ant-Christian hatred. The Western Left can match Islamists in this respect any day. He is also being optimistic in another respect. The Western Left (which includes many nominal Christians) believe that their legal pin-pricks will just hasten the demise of an already declining Christianity. When that does not happen they will resort to deadly violence. One only has to think of places like Mexico and Spain in the 1930s. One has only to peruse contemporary media in the UK, Ireland and the US to sense the latent violence.

  • AlexanderGalt

    Whilst it’s a worldwide phenomenon the annihilation of Christian communities is particularly marked in Muslim countries.

    And in those cases it’s an article of faith among most of our media elite that the negative view of Muslims is due to a negative news bias. Therefore bad news stories about them are constantly ignored underplayed or told out of context.

    The context in the Muslim world is a hundred year pogrom that has seen Christian numbers in the Middle East fall from around 20% to 2%. This is so damaging to people’s image of Islam that it mustn’t be told.

    There’s a great related article about this mindset called:”Racism Obsession” at:


    • maxime1793

      Yes, it is most marked in Muslim countries but it is also the neoconservatives and Zionist theocons who scream the most loudly since they helped to create the problem.

      Note the US and UK are allies with the MOST anti-Christian governments. Christianity is illegal in Saudi Arabia. Other Gulf states, out of the good liberal graces of his Majesty, afford Christians a couple churches total pinned inside a ghetto wall. They all fund either Al-Qa’ida operations, Muslim Brotherhood branches, or both. Then there is Turkey, the conduit for Islamists into Syria, which basically genocided Christians 100 years ago, arrogantly refuses to recognise most minority groups still in the country, and harrasses the few churches it has left. But, it’s a NATO member!

      Then there is Palestine, Lebanon, and Syria. Here Christians are still a sizable number but these countries are constantly targeted by the US, UK, and Israel, cheered on by the neocons and theocons. Christians (incl. Arab Israeli citizens) have steadily left these areas since they are more easily given refuge in Western countries.

      If we wanted to promote the security of Christians in the Middle East, we would back secular Arab nationalists. One has to understand, however, this would include Ba’athists, the PLO, and the coalition to which Hizbollah is allied in Lebanon (for which most Christians vote!). Instead, we ally with the most (by far!) extremist Muslim sects and give them money and weapons. The neocons who don’t care about Christians and theocons who at least don’t care about Catholics and Orthodox, while screaming loudest about ‘global jihad’, are the first to support wars against the secular Arab governments, because ……….. they are considered most threatening to Israel.

      That is how our tragedy unfolds.

    • Bonkim

      Echoes of Muslims being eradicated in Christendom? The Inquisition?

  • Bonkim

    “Theological religion is the source of all imaginable follies and disturbances: it is the parent of fanaticism and evil discord. It is the enemy of mankind.

    Voltaire (1694-1778), Philosophical Dictionary of Religion

    There is a lot of bullshit paranoia about Christians being persecuted around the globe – Yes there are many countries particularly Islamic ones where this is taking place today. Few however examine the root causes of this. Historically Christians have not been angels either and when they had the power or advantage barbarity was the order of the day – forget ‘Love thy neighbour’ command.

    Many countries in Europe – Russia, Norway, Finland, etc, populations were forcibly converted. The Roman and Eastern Churches were no less barbaric in its persecution of non-Christians as some of today’s bigoted faiths are in persecuting those who don’t fall into their mould. In recent history, whole populations in the Americas and Australasia have been either snuffed out or their cultures obliterated.

    Europe was ravaged by sectarian wars where hundreds of thousand sof Christians perished in the hands of other Christians – no different from the Muslim on Muslim killings going on in many countries. My God is better that yours is the call of those who think they have the one and only true God.

    Most countries in Asia have been visited by Christian terror in the form of Jesuits that introduced intolerance and corrupted local cultures. Jews were not spared by the Catholic Church either – endemic persecution in Europe and Russia over two millennia. The whole of the New World enslaved by the Inquisition.

    See http://www.badnewsaboutchristianity.com/index.htm

    • Dean Dickens

      Because, you know, there haven’t been *any* atheistic/secular extremists ever, right? Oh! Wait a sec…

      You also seem to be implying that Christians deserve be persecuted for their beliefs, which is disgusting.

      • Bonkim

        don’t jump to conclusions – everyone should be free to exercise his/her faith – simply pointing out the causes and effects and mindsets of people who act on their religion – both good and evil.

    • stag

      So the “root cause” of Chrisitans being persecuted in Islamic countries, in North Korea, and elsewhere, is that a few centuries ago some Christians were themselves guilty of persecution?

      How sick. Try replacing ‘Christians’ with ‘Jews’. Yes, Jews are hated, mainly by Muslims – but examine the ‘root causes’ of this hatred and you will find it is their own fault. There is no way you could pass that off as anything but anti-semitic.

      All forms of hatred and persecution appeal to some form of ‘justification’, historical or otherwise. That doesn’t make it anything nobler than hate and persecution.

      Your sentiments truly disgust me.

      • Bonkim

        agree only with your penultimate para. Most things in human conflicts are disgusting –

        man is a destructive animal. Hatred begets hatred.

        Jews hated only by Muslims? you need to look up the history of the Israelites from pre-Biblical times to the present, also that of Christendom. Best to leave you to it to come to your own conclusions. I have no axe to grind on that.

        • stag

          Did I say ‘only’ Muslims? No, I said ‘mainly’ Muslims. Read what I said, please.

          Like the author of the article, I am talking about NOW; not pre-Biblical or medieval times. And anyway, the fact that once upon a time ‘we did it too’ does nothing to justify present islamic hatred and violence.

          • Bonkim

            Those who hate will not be moved by justification or otherwise based on your and my rationale.

      • maxime1793

        Historical distrust of Jews concerns their relatively extreme cultural segregation and their rôle as moneylenders (usurers who take advantage of the poor goyim in a way that is forbidden for them to do to poor fellow Jews). Whereas I would have thought the old Christian approach to this problem would have been, “Don’t blame every member of a group for the sins of a few” as well as “Hate the sin, love the sinner”, instead now we are told it is wrong to criticise any Jew at any point and that any historical dislike of Jews was because Christians were really bad, racist people (hating folks going about minding their own business). People also try to rewrite the Passion Gospel and say Pontius Pilate killed Christ, just so as to not offend Jews or be seen to give justification to their persecution.

        This sort of grovelling and dishonest self-censorship is not healthy, either. Either we are honest about why people do
        not like each other or we pick and choose sides in advance and claim this group is beyond reproach or that group is a priori judged to be monstrous haters.

        Also, it really does not matter if groups of people do not like each other. What matters is not crossing that line to kill and destroy. What I see is Western politicians (you know, the ‘centrist’, ‘respectable’ ones) censoring parts of their own populations for “racist language” while promoting war and destruction in the Middle East, funding and training Al-Qa’ida, picking winning and losing communities, fanning the flames of hatred. Note in 2004, the Sunnis in Iraq were really bad and the Shi’a were a great oppressed majority group just trying to get their country back. Then, a few years later, the Shi’a were considered evil and the Sunnis were oppressed and fighting for equal rights. Now the Alawis and Christians can be sacrificed in Syria…anything to gain hegemony over the Middle East.

        • stag

          Most of this is irrelevant. Perhaps true, but not pertinent. Are you saying that it is the fault of Jews that they are viciously hated across the Arab world? If so, you need your head examined.

          The idea that hatred does not really matter is surely false. Take away blind hatred, and Muslims would have no reason to kill Jews; as it is, it is only military weakness that is holding them back.

    • maxime1793

      When you say Russia, Norway, etc. were “forcibly converted”, what you mean is their monarchies accepted Christianity and it was steadily imposed on the population (their ‘subjects’). This was not conversion by invasion. It would also be wrong to think any violence was one-sided.

      Likewise, Lutheranism and Calvinism were imposed by the force of local kings, princes, and dukes. However, most of these religious conflicts, the violent sides of them anyway, were window-dressing for political changes. North Germany wanted independence from the Vatican and the Holy Roman Empire. England wanted to be able to exercise more unilateralism in foreign affairs so Henry played to the genuine resentments of the clergy at being governed from abroad.

      The real causes of these conflicts are not “My God is better than yours” but some political or economic goal which is couched then in noble language.

      • Bonkim

        Yes – question of degree – not substance – simply showing religion is man-made and that included evolution of the various divisions/sects too each seeing its theology to be the true interpretation.

        Invasion of ideas and political ideologies no different from physical and violent invasions – bring change and social divisions.

  • Elly

    The trouble is that the non believers set the agenda in the politics of the world. This means Christians are shut up and can not influence the trend of things. This senario is made worse by the fact that nationalism has weakened the church greatly.

  • JCF

    The problem arises when Christianists in the West try to pretend that “being disagreed with”/”being unable to impose their will on others” somehow amounts to persecution. This whining then gets (tragically) conflated w/ ACTUAL persecution of Christians (as described above), and they’re BOTH overlooked.

    No one is responsible for killing Christians, except those w/ actual blood on their hands . . . but the actions of their (ostensible) co-religionists in the West sure ain’t helping.

    • stag

      What is a ‘Christianist’? Are you trying to establish a parallel with ‘islamist’? If so, you are barking up the wrong tree. No Christians wish to achieve political and territorial domination of the world. That is an islamic dream.

      • maxime1793

        I agree ‘Christianists’ is a dumb term, however, the number of Muslims who wish to achieve “politicial and territorial domination of the world” can likely be counted on digits.

        I disagree with this, “No one is responsible for killing Christians, except those w/ actual blood on their hands”. This is incorrect since you can also blame those who give the Islamists the weapons and training to carry out such attacks. So we are not dealing just with the on-the-ground terrorists, but the Saudi and Qatari royal families, the US government, the UK government, and, more recently (as they used to be opposed to this strategy), the French.

        Without Western support, Islamism would be nothing.

  • Alex C Smith

    Does anyone have the source for “According to the International Society for Human Rights, a secular observatory based in Frankfurt, Germany, 80 per cent of all acts of religious discrimination in the world today are directed at Christians. Statistically speaking, that makes Christians by far the most persecuted religious body on the planet.”? I can’t find it on ishr.org??

    • Bonkim

      Because Christians are spread across the globe in small numbers, mainly converted in recent decades, and also as they or their Churches are more vocal, go to the press, have websites, and better publicity.

      Most parts of the world – minorities are seen as ‘not one of us’ by the local, usually from the lower and poorer social classes which were persecuted historically and seen to be associated with foreign Churches and agencies.

      Persecution usually is civil conflict – not organised state policy. The numbers game means nothing – for example a few tens or even hundreds of Christians murdered in say Pakistan, Iraq or Syria means nothing in comparison with tens of thousands of other casualties in sectarian violence or suppression of popular uprisings in all these countries and of which no statistics exist.

      The world is a cauldron of sectarian and ethnic conflicts and violent – all religions see other religions as false, and theirs the only true God – Christianity has a history of conversion amongst the poor and disadvantages – motives suspect and such hatreds however irrational run deep. Does not sound encouraging but very little the rest of the world can or will do to alter the situation. With overpopulation, and fast depletion of scarce resources, religion is just one factor in human conflict – not the only one.

  • Donald

    2 Timothy 3:12-17 ESV

    Indeed, all who desire to live a godly life in Christ Jesus will be persecuted, while evil people and impostors will go on from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived. But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have firmly believed, knowing from whom you learned it and how from childhood you have been acquainted with the sacred writings, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. .

  • Rupert Douglas

    I’m appalled at this sectarian violence, no matter who causes it. I think a lot of it is to do with psychopathic political leaders cynically exploiting the hopes of unemployed youth who are looking for hope. According to the World Economic Forum, there were 357.7 million unemployed youth in 2010 and this is rising at 4 million youth per year.

    • Bonkim

      the earth is overpopulated and this is expected to increase, also as the earth runs out of scarce resources – land, water, energy, minerals. Start looking up revelations in the Bible and the last days if you believe in Christianity.

  • James Shawcross

    One should not forget Turkey’s ongoing persecution of its Christian minority and the Turkish occupation of northern Cyprus which has decimated the island’s Christian heritage and ethnically cleansed the north’s Greek and Christian population in a brutal and cynical policy of Islamification. This from a nation that aspires to join the European Union!

    • Bonkim

      Archbishop Makarios and the Eastern Christians were persecuting the Muslims in Cyprus when civil war broke out and Turkey stepped in to protect the Muslims – look back in history of Cyprus.

      There is a history of the Eastern Church persecuting not only Muslims but also other Christian denominations – part of the situation in ex-Yugoslavia where the Serbs were getting at not only the Muslims but also the Catholic Croats and Slovenes/Montenegrines – still continuing in Russia.

  • Kim Jolliffe

    Burma’s Karen are majority Buddhist. The most vocal elites of their armed resistance are Christian.

  • Leftie Kufr

    Muslims in Pakistan form human chain to protect Christians:


    The word missing from nearly all articles on Christianity, Islam, Judaism – and even left/right is fundamentalist – those who would destroy others not of their ilk. They/we all have them, but the non-fundamentalists in any of these groups – religious or political – need to act as the Muslims pictured in the article I have linked to have acted.

  • Jackthesmilingblack

    The only reason I can see to justify the existence of Christianity is to serve as a bulwark against encroaching Islamization. However you dress it up, the next world war is going to be between Christianity and Islam, so a preemptive strike before apocalyptic weapons fall into the hands of messianic religious fanatics has to be the right call.
    Now I realize Israel already has apocalyptic weaponry, but you wouldn’t describe Benny the Bomber as a messianic religious fanatic, would you? You would… OK, I was just trying to be nice for a change.
    Nice neutral Buddhist country, anyone?
    Jack, Japan Alps

    • maxime1793

      Wars are caused by geopolitical and economic machinations, not clashes of civilisations. The latter is always a front for the former. Al Qa’ida would be nothing without the support of Western governments who use it to fight against countries they don’t like.

    • Jer

      Interesting, as Christianity predates Islam by some 600 years.

  • Joel T.

    Did you know that France’s first ever conviction in the European Court of Human Rights for violation of religious freedom was in a case involving Christians? http://www.jw.org/en/news/by-region/europe/france/france-returns-funds-collected-illegally/

  • Paul J
    • Bonkim

      Paul J – Agent for Assad Inc. Strong supporter of Hezbollah and iranian murder-squads, and using Sarin to kill of any opposition to Assad.

  • Jackthesmilingblack


  • SeekTruthFromFacts

    Dear Mr Bonkim,

    Since you are ardently anti-religious, can I suggest that you offer your services to the Chinese censorship authorities? They ought to pay you good money for your quite astonishing ability to lead threads off-topic! 😉 I’ve given up any hope of finding any discussion of the OP after wading through dozens of comments engaging with your ideas instead. And I’m sure you’d find many in the CCP who share your views.

    • Bonkim

      What is the truth about John Allen’s report that you wish to tell – rather than diverting attention from the subject matter? You need to address to all the time wasters that comment on comments than discussing the topic – and you have now made me do the very thing. Keep smiling.

  • Grant Dexter

    “Arguably the premier human rights challenge of this era as well.”

    Not even close to the tens of millions of unborn children murdered every year. Christians have the option of buying and using a gun to defend themselves.

  • Alice Gurr

    Murder, imprisonment, torture, rape are evil in any society for any reason. They can never be justified for any reason, and anyone who would seek to justify these evils in the name of any religion is a danger to themselves and society. Christians are no strangers to persecution, its been going on since the birth of the church, and Jesus himself was executed by religious leaders who did not understand who he was. True Christianity is a relationship with God through Jesus Christ characterised by love, kindness, tolerance, servanthood, not just of each other, but their enemies. I recently watched a news report of a Christian janitor in Pakistan who died protecting the dining hall of a women’s university from a suicide bomber. All the women he saved where Muslims. This is true Christianity, the laying down of one’s life, one’s rights for another, be he friend or foe. There is also much religion falsely called Christianity which is no different to any other religion, and this religion has done many cruel things, falsely claiming to represent Christ. This article is an accurate and well presented picture of the global war on Christians, which we were already well aware of, but which is largely ignored by the media. Thank you for bringing the plight of our brothers and sisters around the world to the attention of your readers.

  • mumble

    It would have been irresponsible to report that the Battle of the Bulge was a turning-point in the Second World War, because it wasn’t.

  • mumble

    It would have been irresponsible to report the Battle of the Bulge as a turning point of the Second World War, because it wasn’t.

    Up to that point, you were doing well.

  • Giuliano Taverna

    Something not clearly stated, in all cases the people persecuting Christians belong to other religions. They aren’t atheists… According to this article they are primarily Muslims and Hindus, and in all cases secularists aren’t fairing any better, they are hacked to peices too. Its just that very few people care, even fewer than do about Christians.

    • Anne

      True, but the atheist communist Chinese government isn’t terribly accommodating to religious belief (to name just one). Violence directed at those with different beliefs and philosophies is a human plague, not a religious one. We forget this at our own peril.

  • james warren

    Might the Christians be persecuted because they have yet to take the non-violence of their founder seriously? Our faithful have the mandate to look within at our own big log of wood in our eye before we point out the speck of sawdust in our neighbor’s. That sort of puts the damper on our human hypocrisies and our national fantasy of exceptionalism. My question lingers: Do these facts and this evidence remain responsible for the intentions behind the wars on our religion?

  • Jackthesmilingblack

    Apocalyptic weapons in the hands of medieval messianic
    religious fanatics determined to bring on Armageddon…. You mean like Israel?

  • Jackthesmilingblack

    Have you noticed how any comment critical of Israel is immediately deleted. You know who controls you when you grasp what won`t be published. Isn`t it about time you grew a backbone, Spectator?

  • AlexanderGalt

    And imagine the Battle of the Bulge with the BBC run by Lord Haw Haw.

    Then multiply the time scale by decades and you have the current state of our war against Islamism.

    There’s an interesting take on a BBC story that blames Lee Rigby for “fuelling the rise in Anti-Muslim attacks before describing one of the worst. A Muslim woman had a veil torn off.

    The title is: “Cheer Up BBC. The Glass Is Three Quarters Full!” at:


  • johndowdle

    You make a good point but it has been ruined by stupid court cases claiming religious discrimination by UK religionists, which turn out largely to have no factual basis.
    The old Aesop’s Fable about the boy who cried wolf springs to mind.
    One of the problems of all religions is that they are all relics of former empires.
    I believe some people in non-Western countries view them as part of a hegemonic control mechanism which they desire to throw off and unshackle themselves from.
    The fact that they then go on to adopt a replacement form of religious or political ideology in its place reveals just how illogical and irrational they are and always were.
    I have seen the effect of Judaistic extremism on Christian communities in the “holy” land, where the proportion of Christians has fallen from around 20 per cent in 1948 to around 2 per cent – and still falling – today. Does anyone criticise this situation?
    Ultimately, Christians will have to become part of the solution in those places where conflict now rages, though that will not be an easy thing to accomplish, I agree.

  • Zarquon5

    Haven’t they got God on their side? So what’s the big deal?

  • Miguel

    The persecution of Christians in India is only starting to be recognized in the West. This persecution receives its funding from Hindus settled in the United States, United Kingdom, and other Western countries.

    The Hindu right-wing group, the Vishwa Hindu Parishad (World HIndu Council) has been set up as a charitable organization in these countries. They funnel funds to help anti-Christian and anti-minority activities in India.

    Readers are encouraged to youtube ‘Persecution of Christians in India’ Be warned – what you see will disturb you.

  • Greg Tingey

    Religion Kills!
    ALL religion kills.
    Only just noticed, have we?

    • Godnose

      Religion does not kill. It is people who kill, in the name of their false belief.

      Religion is a sickness. It contaminates people’s minds, and can cause them to despise others whose minds they believe not to be similarly contaminated.

      Religion spreads falsehood disguised as truth, invokes hatred disguised as love, and imposes dogma in place of intelligence.

      Above all, it perpetuates evil in the name of decrying it.

      All this, of course, is merely my personal, subjective opinion. If any “god” truly exists, then it will be easily revealed to me directly, without reliance upon people. If so, I’ll post. But don’t hold your breath.

  • rahul

    The comments on India are outrageous.The christian missionaries were playing politics,interfering and tearing apart the social fabric of those tribals in addition to the usual criminality of missionaries including terrorizing the laity,murdering rivals.Even whites know what it is to be pestered by those loonies, and in India they have far more chutzpah since Hindus dont retaliate except under extreme pressure.Openly they denigrate the gods,publish scurrilous material and falsify history appropriate the ways of others and worse their priests are really the scum of the earth sent to foment trouble. When the tribals could take it no longer, they vented their ire on these criminals and gave them a just punishment by any standard.It was a purely a local event with more than sufficient cause directed against the criminality of these christian missionaries.
    We cant help it if europe got converted by killing untold millions of pagans,you are totally free to live with this perversion;but if you meddle in the affairs of outsiders you shouldnt expect any more.And whites need not worry about people of any other ethnicity and poke your nose in these regions.

    • Godnose

      You are preaching barbarism.

      • Bonkim

        India is in the backwoods regards justice for anyone, not just the persecuted Christians. Millions of lower class Hindus and Muslims suffer the same persecution, and exploitation, often at the hands of corrupt and bigoted officials, and the Police. the legal system and courts lose files and take years, decades. The atrocities committed over the Sikhs following the Indira Gandhi assassination still remain unresolved. So a handful of Christians murdered at the lower rungs of Indian society is not news there. People get lynched routinely in this lawless land.

    • Bonkim

      The Christians in India are not White. Much of such violence is politically motivated – by upper class Hindus that see their power over the poor and oppressed classes waning and finding scape goats for their problems. People convert because the main stream religion is bigoted, class and caste riven and exploitative, corrupt.

      • rahul

        1)Precisely why whites shouldnt interfere.

        2)No. The violence is not motivated by the upper castes.When the locals had had enough of evangleical criminality and found that the government had been paid off and was doing nothing to help them, they took the law into their hands.

        3) The only causes of conversion, all judicial commissions,social observers etc. agree are terror(Goa),financial(rice christians) coercion(many bureaucrats) and outright perfidy(fake baptisms etc).Almost none had been convinced of the doctrine and Maugham remarked that a Goan catholic was a vedantin 500 years after conversion.In fact most converts are from well off middle and upper castes who are paid by their western masters to foment trouble and raise a storm over hinduism.Sane whites should also note what they are supporting when they pay their tithes;essentially criminality in far away lands,which they themselves wouldnt and couldnt tolerate.Indeed a beneficial way to get rid of the scum of your society while troubling others!

        4) If people convert because of caste based oppression then it is very strange indeed that shudras,dalits and bhils all have resisted islam and christianity ferociously and incessantly for 1200 years,under the greatest pressures enduring what no one else could have; jaziya,terrible man made famines and wanton killings.

        So every point raised is false and you should apologize for your broad accusations and pontificating.

        • Bonkim

          Not sure where you live in or what your background is – suggest you look up Indian history and try to clue up to the various strands of political, social, economic, ethnic and sectarian strands that permeate through this diverse land. Most Indians have little clue to what goes on in other parts of the land, read superficial/doctored accounts in between the main topics – gossip and rumours of political corruption, and cricket – intellectually a superficial base and concentrate on making money.

          Regarding conversions – Indians as any others have converted to Islam or Christianity for many reasons including economic, breaking away from their lowly position in the deep class and caste based scial structure or because of their being convinced of the religious dogma.

          By the way Islam and Christianity have both spread by conversions, yes some forced or by authoritarian decree – same story in Europe or Central Asia and the present day Middle-East. That is the history of religions –

          In recent history Orissa/MP have been hotbeds of political, sectarian and ethnic strife. The area has many tribal groups and some have espoused Christianity – whatever their motive – it is a free country although the government has made some unworkable laws about activities of missionaries, and conversions.

          The main conflict is between the Kandha (majority) and Pana (mainly Christian converts) tribes. Many Dalits have also converted to Christianity and other religions mainly because they find Islam, Christianity, Buddhism, and even socialism relatively class-free and able to maitain their dignity which they were unable to within the majority religion. This has been going on for decades since the 1800s. Ethnic and sectarian violence has been endemic in the region.

          Recent enlightenment, political corruption and thrust to open up mining have triggered an increased intensity as also the coming in of the Naxalites that have brought in a socialist ideology into the mix.

          The recent conflict followed the murder of an Australian missionary who was engaged in education and treating leprosy and his two children (1999) were killed by a Hindu fundamentalist.

          Tit for tat killings and communal killings are endemic in the region as in many other parts of India.

          To repeat post elsewhere, it is not just Christians that are the targets of such episodes, India is full of such ethnic and sectarian hot-spots only the solutions more often than not is despatch of the Police or military not unlike during the colonial period, and not looking at the root causes and defusing the conflicts. Indians are incapable of taking the needed pragmatic accommodation, lack the social organisation and political leadership necessary to bring the 1.2 billion + population to exist in harmony.

          Racism – not sure if Indians can claim not to be ethnocentric given their preference for fair skinned partners, film stars, and newspaper and magazine adverts, billboards, etc,.

          • rahul

            I am sure that you are an overeducated bengali who does not know what he is talking about.Merely stringing together some socialist platitudes and cliches and casting aspersions on the opponent do not make your propositions valid;all of which you have indulged in.And making money,whether you like it or not, involves intellect and understanding,quite unlike lefties who have to depend on handouts from America to survive these days,while peddling their destructive nonsense in all places except-you guessed-America.

            I feel I must take apart the nonsense,couched in the usual leftist weasel words and phrases that you have typed.

            1) What the hell do you mean by”various strands of political,social,economic,ethnic blah blah”?Can you give me even one bloody example?People have been living and moving across India,in groups called jatis,for ages.Each group has always had the freedom to move if they felt that they were victimized.And our societies have been formed based on this free movements.

            2)Before the abrahamisms,there was nothing called religion,and in every case the process of conversion has involved shedding rivers of blood. By brushing aside this fundamental fact you cant absolve either the monotheisms or your socialism,your own religion, of their terrible crimes of murdering millions(Ukraine,China,Russia).The old empires(Roman etc) were far more humane even though obviously they are painted as evil.As for doctrinal acceptance,it is a total myth.No sane man has ever accepted a monotheism by free will, and there has always been coercion of some form,threat to life,financial or political considerations.No one converts to “escape their lowly class/caste status”as you have asserted,and if so all of India should be Muslim or Christian by now.This obvious fact has escaped you and you breezily accuse others of being intellectually superficial.
            Please educate yourself as to how the German and Russian pagans were converted mainly by putting entire tribes to the sword by holy men like Constantine,Vladimir and Charlemagne.In those days due to Indo European practices,the population of Europe was not as low as one might think;Just imagine how many they must have killed to convert all of Europe and the baltics,where paganism is making a resurgence now that the church is slightly weaker.

            Great thinkers like Plotinus(from whom the church stole much of its doctrine),Celsus,Julian and later Al-Rawandi and Plethon rejected and easily flasified monotheistic and prophetic claims,while the church just about defended its doctrine through the use of old fashioned brute force.

            3)Finally coming to Orissa,you use the stock term “Hindu fundamentalists”.Do you know what havoc the missionary and his brood were wreaking on the locals?He had converted one group and played it off against the other and watching the show while feigning innoncence.In addition,he was financing the maoist christian terrorists who were supposedly fighting for the “upliftment of the tribals”.You have conveniently forgotten to mention that they murdered a well regarded Hindu monk and whose killers enjoy immunity due to the pro christian lobbies.Your wild accusations are so typical! In fact it was only when Christianity made an entry that these social and ethnic tensions flared up.Europeans would know the blood they have shed for this christian nonsense,but the church hides its culpability well.

            4)India is NOT a hotbed of social and ethnic tensions.India never had a church and thus the odious fiefdoms and the attendant serfdom and exploitation never developed.Of course zamindari was there under the muslims & British,but hindus found a way to live with it. Our ancient culture and humane idealism has held strong the entire region(once upon a time it was from Afghanistan to Java) in spite of all the humongous resources and effort that has gone in and still continuing to exterminate it. Socialist wet dreams about ruling in a score of indian countries where you can sit at the top and sucking the blood of people will not materialize as they are based on false identfications and categorizations.

            5)Your irrelevant point about fair skin?What ridiculous accusation do you want to make now and,are you bonkers? Of course people prefer mates of their own ethnicity and there is nothing wrong with it.No one has the right to interfere in the preferences of others.

            So long,and stop spreading your falsehoods.

          • Bonkim

            Warped mind, out of depth – not wasting time arguing with your middle-ages mindset.

    • Anne

      So playing politics justifies murder, huh? “Meddle” in my politics? Promote a different philosophy or religion? Off to the gallows with you! I can assure that your philosophy is *not* the way to build stable society.

      • rahul

        Politics is the acquisition of raw power and its deployment,not a polite tea party. Politicians accept that getting murdered is an occupational hazard and if you dont have the stomach for it–dont do it.

        By the way is ruining the lives of entire communities, and telling them how they are going to go hell permissible? Is cheating those who welcomed you and accepted you,especially when they are simple farmers unaware of the ways of the world correct? Recently a tribe protested vehemently when the local missionary troublemakers put up a statue of the virgin mary surprisingly similar to the mother goddess of that tribe,a blatant and a low attempt at appropriation. They are no longer naive and unaware of such perfidious tricks.

        • Anne

          I hope you are a troll. I really do. But I fear you are not. In my country, we somehow manage to disagree, vehemently even, over politics and religion (and lack of religion) without murder as an “occupational hazard” of politics. Your bloodshed will never end until someone decides to take responsibility for their own part in the violence. And really? Teaching about a hell you don’t believe in merits barbaric slaughter of religious and ethnic minorities? Right. You may bend knees with force, but you will never win hearts or minds. Words, reason, and love win hearts. Indiscriminate killing because someone teaches a different religion, a different idea that you dislike? This is evil no matter WHAT your religion. Learn to live side by side in peace.

          • rahul

            The debates in your societies take place over the most tangential and useless issues,and even in that opinion is shaped through propaganda,so people dont have any real stuff to gain or lose.Thats why if you disagree you are permitted to continue.
            As for living side by side,is is strange that the whites,who have exterminated so many populations should lecture Hindus about coexistence;when we have demostrably given refuge and let Jews,syrian christians(who were persecuted by muslims),tibetans, and many other groups space in our lands.

  • Rilman

    Its quite obvious what is happening to me. We are becoming a more enlightened society, in doing so we are beginning to reject our own faiths.

    In the meantime Socialists, liberals and globalists have been creeping into the fabric of our government, pushing our country to merge with other totally incompatible cultures from countries that still hold their faiths and superstitions dear, much as we did 500 years ago, spreading their archaic faiths and cultures in the void that our own enlightenment has left behind.

    Cultural Evolution cannot be forced, it can be coerced if done very gently, go too fast and and there will be a massive backlash from the indigenous population as they protect their own beliefs and culture. We need to slow the rate of ingress of all peoples and allow people from other cultures to assimilate into our culture, not try
    to take us back in time to theirs.

    • Bonkim

      Faith simply declining because of enlightenment – the Churches and a few Latin Scholars can no longer blind the general population by their magic chants. The days of the Witch Doctors have ended.

      Even the Bible says – you will recognize the tree by its fruit – and the trees of religion are barren.

    • Anne

      Yes, and in rejecting and criticizing our own faiths, we do so to the point of turning a blind eye toward religion-targeted mass murder. Enlightened indeed.

  • Bonkim

    On Christian persecution in Syria, contrary to some comments on this site, in a reecent BBC interview, Patriarch Gregorios who came to the UK gave a doggedly optimistic message – that the Christians have been caught up in the conflict as others.

    “Even as the war on the ground rages, he said international agreement over chemical weapons had given a unique opportunity for peace.

    Syria’s minority Christian community has faced growing violence, but he said it was not dependent for its survival on President Bashar al-Assad’s secular government.”

    No reason therefore for supporting murderous Assad as some of his supporters appear to be suggesting on this website.

  • Mike

    Jesus, talking about the end times: “Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and put you to death and you will be hated by all nations for my name’s sake” (Matt 24:9)

  • Shaithias

    So what your saying is that because the majority of christians are minority and ethnic, that the rate of christian persecution equals the rate of ethnic and minority persecution?

    Sadly, people care more about the nfl than whether other people live or die. The apathy in America is appalling.

  • kiz_ma_az

    You have cited no sources. You offer no links to these studies you discuss. I can find no studies to back up your claims. Will you consider this comment persecution because I am questioning the validity of your statements?

  • soetes
  • Annie Shine

    It may well be the rise of a new generation of Christian martyrs, the writer touched upon one reason why we do not hear more about this which is the intention of the Christians facing these situations. That is to follow the example of Christ.

  • AlexanderGalt

    This scandal along with much that seems irrational nonsense have the same source. That is the elite’s insistence on seeing everything through pink multicultural glasses.

    The full extent of what we’re up against is brilliantly outlined in: Squadron 303 And How Hating Wins Wars” at:


  • Mottahead .

    Ok, let me see if I get this clear: so now Christians are claiming to be the victims of persecution.
    So now we have the Christians joining the Jewish, Muslims and Falongong as the victims of persecution.
    Everybody’s claiming to be the victims of persecution these days – which might well mean that they all are in some way or another.
    I admire this reporter attempt to ask for the facts by meaning that it is an important issue and that it should be reported as such.
    My question really is: is it not being reported because Christians don’t want to look prejudiced against Muslims?
    If that’s the answer the whole thing has fallen into a crazy loop that will never stop.

    • Eddie

      Well, why not? If everyone is playing the game. Everyone craves victimhood, and a hugely profitable race relations, diversity and (so-called) equality industry now exists – and it needs feeding.
      The group most discriminated against in Britain these days is white males – there are legal forms of racism and sexism (socalled ‘positive action’) to keep them down, as well as unofficial discrimination against them, stopping them getting opportunities. For well-off white males (Milliband, Clegg, Cameron) it doesn’t matter, but the working and lower middle class white men of Britain are the new N-words on the block.
      But as a dedicated atheist I agree that Christians are persecuted throughout all socalled ‘Muslim lands’.

      • Mottahead .

        I have a tendency to try to dismiss any claims of victim hood by any people, because stating that one is prejudiced against is the perfect safe face for not trying hard enough – yet, I’m a rational being, and I have to give that discrimination does exist especially when the economy is in bad shape. When all is all and most people have enough money on their pockets, we barely hear any talk of discrimination. I agree with you that yes, affirmative action-like efforts, even though full of good intentions, can easily become a tool that actually increases or spreads discrimination. The way I see it what the powers that be are trying to do is give the impression that it is making an effort at including everyone in order to garner more votes during election time. So, there’s much pretending and very little in terms of effective action – which most people seem to not be buying into – opening the doors to much more dangerous and extremist views (that’s what usually happens when Government does a very good job at pretty much alienating the rest of society from any meaning discussion).

  • Hammerstrike

    “Battle of the Bulge, but without explaining that it was a turning point in the second world war.”

    Not realllllly.

  • Bonkim

    Lots of myths being perpetrated on Christian persecution. Whilst persecution of minorities is a universal phenomenon and Christians are persecuted is many countries, not necessarily because of their faith but also because of the endemic situation towards minority sections of the population in these countries.

    In many countries such as Congo, Rwanda, most are Christians and the genocide is between Christians and Christians.

    Many US Christian Groups use fake statistics to justify their cause, they forget that religious conversions are banned in many Islamic and non-Islamic countries, and that many converts are from minority ethnic and sectarian groups – but try their luck and put Christians who usually live a low-key life in danger.

    This is not to condone religious persecution anywhere, in any form – simply a reality check. One can say similar things about not Christians being persecuted in many Christian countries – Russia for example persecutes Muslims, Christians other than Orthodox and followers of other religions. Most minorities feel persecuted/vulnerable in countries which are nominally Christian.

    Persecution is a two way street, mixed with nationalism, and phobia against those we consider outside our tribal group. No black or white in the religious, racial, ethnic or sectarian persecution endemic all over the world, we may not like it but it thrives in most places – a question of degree.

  • Tony Marcus

    So, this article takes the fact that people killed were Christian as the reason for their deaths. Undoubtedly in some percentage that would be true. The examples given of those murdered because of their beliefs is (while any number would be too great) quite small. Did the US cause the deaths of somewhere between 100,000 and 200,000 Iraqis because they were Muslim? No, we wanted to change their government, and for some reason they thought they ought to be able to decide about that, so…bang. If you accept that half of the world’s population self describes as Christian, it’s not surprising that large numbers of them fall victim to violence. To assert that the cause of all their deaths was their religious belief is absurd. Should we be upset that people are still getting killed because of the faith they practice? Of course. Should we start a new crusade out of hatred? Well, that would be just what the article accuses other religions of doing. This sort of hate mongering is counter productive.

  • TedHewlett

    It would seem that many of the commentators do not have a concern about the persecution of Christians today. The faults of so-called Christian bodies in the past are of interest and should be instructive for Christians, but non-Christians bringing up distant internal conflicts to change the subject without expressing concern for present-day Christians is surely a sign of not caring.

    • WJH19731

      Because history doesn’t matter, right? And none of the evil actions taken by Christians in the past have influenced the people of today to attack them now, right?

  • johndowdle

    I would add two components to this discussion. Firstly, is the persecution – which is wholly unacceptable – based on religion or something else? We here in the West must surely recognize that Western intervention in other parts of the world – such as the example given in the article of Iraq – comes at a price. People in other parts of the world view Christians as an inner fifth column, dedicated to infiltrating their societies on behalf of Western interests. There is a failure in the West to think beyond their own immediate interests in any situation; military aggression against Iraq and Afghanistan being obvious cases in point. Indeed, one can view the rise of Wahhabism and other extremist ideologies as being linked with resentment at Western attempts to control the rest of the world solely in the interests of senior executives and principal shareholders of large mainly Western corporations. My second point is that activist evangelicals in the West have not helped their fellow and sororal Christians in other parts of the world by making claims of victimhood in the West. This ends up by deadening sensitivity to real cases of persecution. People like the Christian Defence Fund and other similar US-based groups who are waging lawfare in an attempt undemocratically to get the laws on certain issues changed in their countries without going through the democratic process end up getting any and all claims of persecution dismissed. If Christians really want their plight to be understood, recognized and acted upon, they must restrict themselves to real cases of persecution and stop manufacturing bogus claims of persecution in an attempt to provide unrealistic explanations as to the decline of religion in the West.

    • TommyNIK

      Kudos. Your comment pretty much invalidated this entire article.

      • johndowdle

        Tommy: Thank you.
        Perhaps I should write for The Spectator – except that it is so right wing I would probably find myself in total disagreement with most of its contributors!!

  • wisdom of the blue monk

    Probably the writer should ask this question the otherway around.yes why only the Christians? Did u ask the same when people were burnt alive by Christians for not being members of their church, did u ask them to stop when these Christian rediculed God n Goddesses belonging to other faiths, why don’t u ask these Christians what is the motif behind their support both financially and with arms and ammunition to terrorist Asian groups like ltte and other northeast Indian terrorist groups? And did u ask questions when buddhist temples were burnt by the Christians in South Korea.Christians r probably the most arrogant,jealous n outdated people on earth with a bronze age jealous god. Why cry when u christian believe we r devil worshipers cause we r not Christians.what more u expect?

  • Organix

    Considering that public opinion is susceptible to being hijacked by those who harbor nefarious intentions, we should remember that majority decisions cannot guarantee morality, liberty, or prosperity.

  • Graeme Kilshaw

    I will come to your aid. We will come to your aid.

  • Larry



    You know how some people insult Muslims by calling them crude names that are the equivalents of sodomites and bestialists (butt- and goat-f**kers)? It turns out at least the sodomite insult is true! We have it straight from the mouth of none other than a Muslim cleric — a London-based Shiite cleric named Yasser Habib.


    by Abu Nuwas:

    O the joy of sodomy!

    So now be sodomites, you Arabs.

    Turn not away from it–

    therein is wondrous pleasure.

    Take some coy lad with kiss-curls

    twisting on his temple

    and ride as he stands like some gazelle

    standing to her mate.

    A lad whom all can see girt with sword

    and belt not like your whore who has

    to go veiled.

    Make for smooth-faced boys and do your

    very best to mount them, for women are

    the mounts of the devils


    Surah 8:69: “But (now) enjoy what ye took in war,
    lawful and good.” (Yusuf Ali)


    “It may, superficially, appear distasteful to copulate with a woman who is not a man’s legal wife, but once Shariah makes something lawful, we have to accept it as lawful, whether it appeals to our taste, or not; and whether we know its underlying wisdom or not.”


    Satan Attends Every Childbirth; He Touches Every Infant

    Except for Mary and her Son Jesus, all babies cry during their birth, because Satan touches them… (Sahih Bukhari, 4.55.641)

    Whenever a child is born, Satan pricks it; that is why the child cries. Only Mary and Jesus were not pricked by Satan…(Sahih Muslim, 30.5837, 5838)

    Say prayer during sexual intercourse, and Satan will not touch your child…(Sahih Bukhari, 4.54.503


    In a broadcast on the UK’s Fadak TV on May 24, 2012, Habib calmly and dispassionately asserts that all non-Shiite males — especially the Shiites’ Muslim rivals, the Sunnis — are sodomized at birth by the devil, and grow up to become “passive homosexuals”, i.e., the “bottom” of a homosexual pair who is penetrated in anal sex.


    Islamic cleric confirms Muslim men really are sodomites

    You know how some people insult Muslims by calling them crude names that are the equivalents of sodomites and bestialists (butt- and goat-f**kers)? It turns out at least the sodomite insult is true! We have it straight from the mouth of none other than a Muslim cleric — a London-based Shiite cleric named Yasser Habib.

    In a broadcast on the UK’s Fadak TV on May 24, 2012, Habib calmly and dispassionately asserts that all non-Shiite males — especially the Shiites’ Muslim rivals, the Sunnis — are sodomized at birth by the devil, and grow up to become “passive homosexuals”, i.e., the “bottom” of a homosexual pair who is penetrated in anal sex.


    “Anyone who consents to being called ‘Emir of the Believers’ is a passive homosexual. Omar Ibn Al-Khattab, for example, who willingly assumed this title, was, without a doubt, a passive homosexual. The same goes for the caliphs Othman Ibn Affan, Muawiyya, Yazid, and the rules and sultans of the Umayyad and Abbasid dynasties, as well as some of the rulers and sultans of our day and age.

    For example, the king of Morocco bears this title. This is how you know that he is a passive homosexual. This is in addition to the evidence revealed by Western media, which showed that the current king of Morocco is indeed a passive homosexual who belongs to the homosexual community. This was leaked from his palace by his assistants, his servants, and his ‘boys,’ whom he would penetrate and who would penetrate him. They fled to Europe, sought asylum, and exposed all this.

    Cleric Yasser Habib exposes Kalifa Umar.

    It is told (in the hadith) that Umar Ibn Al-Khattab had an anal disease, which could be cured only by semen. One should know that this is a well-known medical condition, which is also mentioned in sacred texts. Someone who, God forbid, has been penetrated in the anus, a worm grows within him, due to the semen discharged in him…

    A disease develops in his anus, and as a result, he cannot calm down, unless. he is penetrated again and again.

    The Shiites are undoubtedly protected from this disease, and from committing this abominable and hideous act. As for the Nasibis (who hated the prophet Muhammad’s family), they are definitely afflicted with this homosexuality.

    One of the devils is present at the birth of every human being. If Allah knows that the newborn is one of our Shiites, He fends off that devil, who cannot harm the newborn. But if the newborn is not one of our Shiites, the devil inserts his index finger into the anus of the newborn, who thus becomes a passive homosexual. If the newborn is not a Shiite, the devil inserts his index finger into this newborn’s anus, and when he grows up, he becomes a passive homosexual.

    If the newborn is a female, the devil inserts his index finger into her vagina, and she becomes a whore. At that moment, the newborn cries loudly, as he comes out of his mother’s womb. Note that some children cry normally at birth, while others cry loudly and incessantly. You should know that this is the work of that devil, according to this narration.”

    Islam is NOT a religion, but an insane political system and sex cult populated by the severely mentally impaired.”

    When cleric Yasser Habib “says ‘passive homosexual’, he is referring to the receptive, submissive, female-equivalent partner. Dominant, inserting male homosexual activity is universally accepted in Islam. He has no problem with that. It’s grown men ‘catching’ that he has a problem with.”

  • Larry


    The Roman Pagan Catholic Constantine Cult PLAGIARIZED the teachings
    of Jesus of Nazareth & “created” a bastarded version of his Good


    All of Christendom has been tainted by their MYTHS & LIES.

    What was that Good News? There was No Need for Temple sacrifices!
    That our bodies were the Temple of God! That the Kingdom of God was
    WITHIN us. There was no need for QUIBLA (direction in praying), we can
    doing it lying in our bed.

    Jesus was following in the line of the Jewish Prophets, who had been

    To get a glimpse at what he is teaching, study Matthew ch 19. See what he says about MARRIAGE (vs 4-9). It was MOSES that allowed DIVORCE.

    Jesus points back to a time before HEBREWISM – ISRAELISM – JUDAISM.

    It was the priest-scribe EZRA, who CORRUPTED the manuscripts. He edited them, just like the Council of Nicaea did with all the Christian Gospels & Epistles & produced their OFFICIAL BIBLE.


    There are 2 types of religion in the TANACH – PRIESTCRAFT & PROPHETIC.

    The Prophets preached against the SACRIFICIAL SYSTEM. Worship of God is ALL about OBEDIENCE!






    JEREMIAH 17:9-10,

    9 The heart is deceitful above ALL things,
    and desperately EVIL;
    who can understand it?
    10 “I the Lord search the heart
    and test the mind,
    to give every man according to his ways,
    according to the fruit of his deeds.”

    James 1:12-20

    12 Blessed are those who endure when they are tested. When they pass
    the test, they will receive the crown of life that God has promised to
    those who love him. 13 When someone is tempted, he shouldn’t say that
    God is tempting him. God can’t be tempted by evil, and God doesn’t tempt
    anyone. 14 Everyone is tempted by his OWN DESIRES as they lure him
    away and trap him. 15 Then desire becomes pregnant and gives birth to
    sin. When sin grows up, it gives birth to death.

    16 My dear brothers and sisters, don’t be fooled. 17 Every good
    present and every perfect gift comes from above, from the Father who
    made the sun, moon, and stars. The Father doesn’t change like the
    shifting shadows produced by the sun and the moon.

    18 God decided to give us life through the word of truth to make us his most important creatures.

    19 Remember this, my dear brothers and sisters: Everyone should be
    quick to listen, slow to speak, and should not get angry easily. 20 An
    angry person doesn’t do what God approves of.


  • Journey to the West

    When the discussion was still active, the revisionists, here, were cycling between histrionics, denial, and justification.

    They didn’t know what happened, whether it happened, but they would be complicit — if not with eachother, then against Christians.

  • SantosGarcia

    It will get considerably worse when the world economies collapse orchestrated by the NWO Globalist agenda. Are you aware that we are in the ‘Last Days’ according to the LORD Jesus Christ’s clear teaching in Matthew 24 [parallel passage in Revelation 6]? What is next on the near horizon? First- http://zionsgate.wordpress.com/2014/02/08/the-imminent-psalm-83-war/ and then- http://zionsgate.wordpress.com/2011/10/16/the-day-of-christ-and-the-day-of-the-lord/ So when do we start crying out to a Holy GOD (YHVH) according to 2 Chronicles 7:14? Don’t wait too long; none of us knows how long we have!

    • You total nit-wit. You are acting as though what the Bible says has any merit. In which case, the end times would have occurred in Jesus’ time or Paul’s according to their testimony.

      • silas1898

        The Bible. Also known as the Jewish Book of Fairy Tales.

        • Matthew Meadow

          Currently I am studying the prophet Jeremiah. A book full of advanced warnings of judgement on the Kingdom of Judah. Which came to pass in the exile to the Babylon. f you believe that to be a very tail; Think again.

          • silas1898

            It’s not a very tail, but it is a fairy tale. So sayeth Nephi.

          • Matthew Meadow

            My excuse for this stupid grammar error, even though me being dutch is a poor excuse. Anyway if it comes to knowing and understanding historic facts sustaining Biblical events, the Bible itself, combined with and a total lack any decent personal logic, makes you drowning in ignorance. Who is the most important person in history!? A fraud!? I do not envy you.

          • David Lloyd-Jones


            You start out claiming, with limited accuracy, that the Bible is a book of Jewish fairy tales, but with your two URL’s you’ve suddenly changed Jesus of Nazareth, carpenter, into a christ.

            At that point the tales are yours, not those of the Jews of two or three thousand years ago.


          • Matthew Meadow

            No, I did not, silas1898 did. In the OT Christ is concealed in the NT he is revealed. And He himself and with Him all the writers of the NT many times quoted from the OT, confirming its valid message.

          • David Lloyd-Jones


            Apologies for the misattribution.

            I fail to see the logic of the rest of your post. If Jesus wasn’t in your “old” “testament,” i.e. the bits of the Tanach that the various Xian churches pick up as they pick and choose, this doesn’t mean the guy was “concealed.” That’s just plain idiotic.
            Jesus isn’t there because a.) he wasn’t born yet, and b.) he wasn’t that big a deal until Paul and the boys got busy organizing for a few decades, and needed to puff up the figurehead of their new organization.

            If the same organization says the same thing twice this confirms nothing, and mere repetition does not make anything any time true. Idiotic idea 2.0.


          • Matthew Meadow

            About concealed in the OT, I will give you one example, there are many.

            Do you know the history of Abraham sacrificing his son Isaac? You can read it here:


            Now in line 8 it says:

            Abraham answered, “God himself will provide the lamb for the burnt offering, my son.” And the two of them went on together.

            This is a prophetic announcement, because in John 1:29 it is written:

            The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

            Again this is one of many examples.

          • David Lloyd-Jones

            Matthew, you silly bunny,

            That’s utter nonsense. The two things, if they happened, are roughly 1,400 years apart and in entirely different cultures.

            The first story, in which Abraham decides that this son-sacrificing thing is a load of crap and he isn’t going to go along with it, happened while he was still back in Ur before he took the long walk that would get his family to Egypt.

            His son knows they’re supposed to be doing some sort of springtime sacrifice, and didn’t know anything about this pagan ritual of either sacrificing a firstborn son or paying redemption money to the local priest, and to reassure him his father tells him that something, a lamb, will turn up.

            Later the father has this blinding light revelation that the whole thing is wicked stupid nonsense — which is a fairly holy sorta thing to realise, imho. He decides to spare his son, and when he gets back to the tribe he tells them this story about some god in a burning bush to explain why he didn’t kill his son but he isn’t going to pay the priest’s blood money either.

            Fast forward 1400 years, to maybe two generations after Jesus was murdered by the Romans to keep the holiday crowds amused in Jerusalem. You find a bunch of the Christian church organizers are sitting around putting together their various books, some of which will end up in today’s Bibles, and some of which won’t.

            You can Google this up for yourself, so I won’t go into the whole thing. Suffice to say the book “John” is one of the four major gospels, and its pretend author is cobbled up to be a version of an earlier actual apostle, named John.

            What’s most notable about the Gospel of John is that it’s the most Greek of the four. They’re trying to get away from being just a Jewish sect, like sociologists or Scientologists or ACLU members or some damn thing, so they bring in a whole lot of Greek stuff — logos being the biggie — and wrap it up with lamb stuff and other popular folklore that happens to be lying around. Their lamb is the same one Abraham used to fool his son, the Easter sacrificial lamb to feed the priests.

            John’s lamb is not Abraham’s lamb. Both of them are the priests’ mutton feast at the spring festival. They ended up in the various modern Bibles by different routes, and have nothing to do with one another.

            End of story.

            Go Google. Don’t pester me with your silly theories until you’ve done your homework and have something interesting to say, OK?


          • Matthew Meadow

            With all respect David, nothing in the Bible is by chance, there is always a greater purpose. Why were the disciples willing to be martyred for their witness !? Does that make sense? The OT contains many recorded events which are a physical foreshadow of the redemptive work of Christ. In this case Abraham ‘represents’ God the Father, Isaac, the son ‘represents’ the Son of God, Jesus. Another example is Joseph, the son of Jacob, who reveals himself to His brothers, this is a foreshadow of the moment the Jews will recognize their Messiah, probably at- or just before His second coming. http://tinyurl.com/mbxxa4b

            Your problem with interpreting the Bible:

            The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit. (1 Corinthians 2:14)

            The Bible contains the blueprint of Gods plan for redeeming men from a fallen position, current developments in the Middle East correspond with prophetic messages as recorded in the Bible in both the old and new testament. Can you recognize the final events of history in Matthew 24? http://tinyurl.com/kbz9t5u Take me seriously, what could you possibly loose, eternal life !?

            A pastor once made this intriguing remark, this life is the only hell believers will ever know and this life is the only heaven unrepentant sinners will ever know.

            The Word of God calls the condition of the present earth in this present age ‘a worn out garment’. (Isaiah 51:6)

            The creation waits in eager expectation for the sons of God to be revealed. For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God. (Romans 8:19-21)

            The message of God, a hope revealed:

            The great hope of restoration:

            All humanity aches. Deep Within the core of human existence dwells a secret pain that continuously cries out that something has been lost.

            This message of full restoration is found everywhere in the word of God. It is the ‘current’ which is moving and inspiring the children of God in a clear direction through all our pains and ‘troubled waters’.

            The complete study: http://tinyurl.com/prwjxr8

            Jesus as recorded in John 16:33 “I have told you these things, so that in me you may have peace. In this world you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world.”


          • David Lloyd-Jones

            “With all respect David, nothing in the Bible is by chance, ”


            Lots of stuff is in the various Bibles by chance. For starters what’s in *your* Bible depends on the chance of whether you were born RC, Western protestant, Armenian, or one of a couple of other kinds of Christian.

            The whole silly book Revelation is only in the Bibles by the odd chance of late night politics at one of those murky early church conclaves.

            And the whole reason the Gospel of Peter isn’t in the Bible has yet to be explained. Maybe somebody turned left at the wrong pyramid on their way to Ephesus. I don’t know. Do you?



          • Matthew Meadow

            Matt. 12:36 But I tell you that men will have to give account on the day of judgment for every careless word they have spoken.

            Guess who is speaking these words. (Rom. 2:16, 2 Tim. 4:1)

          • David Lloyd-Jones

            Not interested in your guessing games.
            Authoritarian half-wits think they have to threaten their children to make them behave.
            Those children tend to grow up saying “If people didn’t believe in a god the would act badly,” and “Look at those people, they’re behaving badly because they don’t believe in my god.” The fact is, some people will act badly no matter what, and people who believe in gods are amongst the worst criminal, fools, perverts you’ll find anywhere.

            If you have to believe something arbitrary, to have some handy dandy rule to live by, how about this one: “Since the world is confusion and madness, therefore let me behave with dignity and good humour”?

            Just a thought.


          • Matthew Meadow

            True faith and restoration is a work by God inside out:

            Ezekiel in the Old Testament:

            Ezekiel 36:24-36 New International Version (NIV)

            24 “‘For I will take you out of the nations; I will gather you from all the countries and bring you back into your own land. 25 I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your impurities and from all your idols. 26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my Spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws. 28 Then you will live in the land I gave your ancestors; you will be my people, and I will be your God. 29 I will save you from all your uncleanness. I will call for the grain and make it plentiful and will not bring famine upon you. 30 I will increase the fruit of the trees and the crops of the field, so that you will no longer suffer disgrace among the nations because of famine. 31 Then you will remember your evil ways and wicked deeds, and you will loathe yourselves for your sins and detestable practices. 32 I want you to know that I am not doing this for your sake, declares the Sovereign Lord. Be ashamed and disgraced for your conduct, people of Israel!

            33 “‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says: On the day I cleanse you from all your sins, I will resettle your towns, and the ruins will be rebuilt. 34 The desolate land will be cultivated instead of lying desolate in the sight of all who pass through it. 35 They will say, “This land that was laid waste has become like the garden of Eden; the cities that were lying in ruins, desolate and destroyed, are now fortified and inhabited.” 36 Then the nations around you that remain will know that I the Lord have rebuilt what was destroyed and have replanted what was desolate. I the Lord have spoken, and I will do it.’

          • Matthew Meadow

            Also Jeremiah 31:31-34:

            “The days are coming,” declares the Lord,
            “when I will make a new covenant
            with the people of Israel
            and with the people of Judah.
            32 It will not be like the covenant
            I made with their ancestors
            when I took them by the hand
            to lead them out of Egypt,
            because they broke my covenant,
            though I was a husband to[a] them,[b]”
            declares the Lord.
            33 “This is the covenant I will make with the people of Israel
            after that time,” declares the Lord.
            “I will put my law in their minds
            and write it on their hearts.
            I will be their God,
            and they will be my people.
            34 No longer will they teach their neighbor,
            or say to one another, ‘Know the Lord,’
            because they will all know me,
            from the least of them to the greatest,”
            declares the Lord.
            “For I will forgive their wickedness
            and will remember their sins no more.”

          • David Lloyd-Jones


            You seem to be repeating yourself. Very boring, and a cruel torture for all those tired overworked electrons.

            Cut it out.


          • Matthew Meadow

            I was refuting this statement of yours:

            Authoritarian half-wits think they have to threaten their children to make them behave.

            Of course, you did not notice, your mind is too superficial to be bothered for anything really relevant. To prove my point: Where do I repeat myself except in my last message ‘Jeremiah’ as an extra confirmation of the Ezekiel passage.

            But anyway, at this point I quit. Keep enjoying this deluded world, it is your only prospect.

  • yesIDeeClaire

    Although attacks upon the liberty of some, such as the “rich”, are a common tactic by those who oppose morality and liberty, it should be clear that an attack upon the liberty of some is an attack upon the liberty of all.

  • piyu2cool

    Utter bullshit propaganda. Christanity and Islam are two religions which spread throughout the world through violent means. Semitic religions share this trait. They wish to eradicate all non believers. There is no concept of religious tolerance.

    In short christanity and Islam are nothing but political ideologies. They have suffered a catastrophic setback in the west. That’s why pastors are trying to bribe or intimidate poor natives in far off lands to convert to Christianity.

  • Liberalism Is Nonsense

    Understanding that our own ignorance is the beginning of wisdom helps each of us remember that we are ignorant regarding most things.

  • MiXiW

    Please forgive me for my perhaps offensive choice of words, but: take your endless discussions about middle ages history and who has the most deaths on their conscience and stuff ’em. If you’ll take a moment to read through the article again, you’ll notice that the author does not bother to pull up any statistics from ANY time before the 2000s — except to compare some of the present numbers to past ones (and that only in left-over population), and his short note on North Korea.

    The point of this article, and what you SHOULD be focusing on is the fact that these are the numbers that are happening TODAY. The author isn’t making a plea for you to forgive every atrocity committed in the name of God — he is asking you, for crying out loud, to open your welfare-blinded eyes to the plight of people living, or in many many cases dying, TODAY.

    To those of you who haven’t read “Mein Kampf” and somehow feel like they know exactly what Hitler was about: shove it. To those of you who are just parroting all the little half- and even maybe a couple of whole truths about how many people may or may not have died in the salem witch trials or the 30-years war: unless you’ve written or read a dissertation on the subject, or can come up with ONE actual source to support your vague pseudo-statistics: get off your high horse and just LOOK AROUND YOU. Or maybe better yet, read the article again, since you probably live in one of those countries the author mentioned where the biggest danger you’re in is getting sued for “religious persecution” or falling over in your bathtub at home. Oh, just so you know, “everyone knows” is not a valid source.

    You know, all over the internet, on every blog and newsforum you can find discussions like this — there’s always a few gems in there, but it seems like most of the “discussors” for lack of a better term are just out to bring the same tired old talking AT each other to even the most interesting and relevant of items.

    Take another good long look at that article. Let me point out a few details you might have missed:
    – People are dying.
    – LOTS of people are dying
    – The author seems to have a certain valid point when he points out that a LOT of people who are dying very, very violent deaths appear to be — thus, it seems, a lot of the comments just kind of get stuck on this — Christians
    – Did I mention that there are NUMBERS here that are representative of people dying? Lots of people?

    This article is not an apologetic — an attempt at defending a faith. It’s also not an attempt at justifying or explaining history. It is telling you that just because some of the more prosperous nations on earth haven’t seen a full-on national or ethnic conflict since World War II, war has in no way disappeared from the earth. What’s going on right now, this instant, in MANY countries in the world, can only be described as Medieval, guys. So pull your self-righteous noses out of your little piles of religious vendetta, and get this through your head: if you really believe in human rights, or in justice, or in any kind of decency, or even in God, this article should have struck a nerve. I don’t want to believe the internet is as full of sociopathic narcissists as it seems to be right now.

    To simply discard out of hand the deaths of so many people just because they’re part of a religion you obviously have nothing left over for is just… just childish. Inhumane. Forgive me: stupid and callous. You want a comparison with Hitler — you got it. Take a good long look at yourself and make sure you’re not BEING it.

    So take your body-counts and tirades bordering on polemic elsewhere. Go research the persecution to and by Christianity in the last 2000 years for all I care. Do a thorough job of it, and maybe write an INFORMED blog about it sometime. But if you have nothing but your endless, pointless, common (and I mean that in the worst way) contention to contribute, get the hell out or shut the hell up.

    • David Lloyd-Jones


      You sure find a funny way of expressing your new-found conversion to the liberal values of tolerance and multi-culturalism.

      Everything you copied down about the evils being inflicted on Christians is fairly likely to be true — thanks to the journalists, not to any work you did. Now then, where did you find the accompanying values for which you claim credit?

      That’s secular liberalism, not church militant, that you’re trying to learn to speak.
      Think of it as opposition to Boko Haram missionaries, muscular Islam.


  • Nathan Jessup

    To defend my family from the superstitions of liberalism, I’ve found it useful to arm myself with liberty’s longbow: http://amzn.to/1ozN3tC

  • Nathan Jessup

    Here we find Obama lying about healthcare again: http://bit.ly/1oBu2m7

  • Barney Ross

    Today’s liberalism is no different than its marxist, socialist, and communist ancestors.

  • Valhalkarie

    And mainstreem media especially shills for the extreeme right always deliberately fail to mention the genocide going on rite now along side with christians murdering muslims in Africa. They are both fucking insane. Religion makes the moderate intelligent humans (most of us) ABSOUTLY insane. This is why american founding fathers seperated church from state affairs,because all strife in human civilizations and there down fall was ALLWAyS because of religion. It makes many blind thoughtless crazy people.

  • Guest

    Were out to get you, you’re done.

    Your power is fleeting. all hail the flying spaghetti monster!

  • Fumo-Amitesh Havelka

    1400 Years Islam 270+ Million killed heathens.

    2000 Years Christianity 250 Million killed heathens.

    N/E India NDFB a mainly christian terrorgroup massakers village

    NLFT kills Swami Lakshmanananda + 4 others on order of Churches (Dokuments [protocol of meeting] found by police for assasination of the the Swami.)

    Priest found guilty for support of NLFT with explosives (Material found hidden in his house)

    Another local famous Swami killed vor rejecting to convert (he and his followers)

    Police reports regarding the incident identified ten members of the Christian separatist organization, National Liberation Front of Tripura, as being responsible for the murder.

    Some reports of violence against christians are true but many are fake. Raping of a older nun some month ago was done by bangladeshi muslims but innocent hindus were blamed for this. Dont trust Indian Media. Things are different than some groups want to make you belive. Christian Terror against “pagans” still exists!

  • Tiago Da Silva Ferreira

    The source for these numbers are christians institutions, so there is no credibilty at all. And you have to remember that these christians in those countries are results of the colonization. Some years ago Christians were opressing other religions and cultures and now the remaining christians from the old colonies are being persecuted in revenge. And christians don’t persecute other religions nowadays only because in the west they can not do this anymore. But if they had power, they would do it again with a smile in the face. Christianity is a bloody religion. When they are not attacking each other, christians are attacking the other religious tradition. That is the sad true.

  • denise smith

    With enormous energy, the warriors of Islam struck out against the Christians shortly after Mohammed’s death. They were extremely successful. Palestine, Syria, and Egypt—once the most heavily Christian areas in the world—quickly succumbed. By the eighth century, Muslim armies had conquered all of Christian North Africa and Spain. In the eleventh century, the Seljuk Turks conquered Asia Minor (modern Turkey), which had been Christian since the time of St. Paul. The old Roman Empire, known to modern historians as the Byzantine Empire, was reduced to little more than Greece. In desperation, the emperor in Constantinople sent word to the Christians of western Europe asking them to aid their brothers and sisters in the East.

    Understand the crusaders

    That is what gave birth to the Crusades. They were not the brainchild of an ambitious pope or rapacious knights but a response to more than four centuries of conquests in which Muslims had already captured two-thirds of the old Christian world. At some point, Christianity as a faith and a culture had to defend itself or be subsumed by Islam. The Crusades were that defense.

    Pope Urban II called upon the knights of Christendom to push back the conquests of Islam at the Council of Clermont in 1095. The response was tremendous. Many thousands of warriors took the vow of the cross and prepared for war. Why did they do it? The answer to that question has been badly misunderstood. In the wake of the Enlightenment, it was usually asserted that Crusaders were merely lacklands and ne’er-do-wells who took advantage of an opportunity to rob and pillage in a faraway land. The Crusaders’ expressed sentiments of piety, self-sacrifice, and love for God.

  • elissalf

    The Karen and Han are persecuted as ethnic outsiders and the Christians in North Korea are persecuted en masse, same as ANY group that doesn’t kowtow to Jong-un.

    I think this makes some of your thesis suspect.

    I’d have much more time for it if the ruling class in the USA (virtually 100% Christian) wasn’t always crying about how badly Christians are being oppressed there (because the rest of us no longer let you lot shove your beliefs down our throats).

    I understand that in other places the oppression IS real, but you guys ALSO have a martyr complex about two miles too long.

    • elissalf

      By the way, can we get the current Christians who are in power, say, in Africa, to stop oppressing people? Because of anti-birth control efforts, people are/have been dying of AIDS in enormous numbers. Can you Christians please get your jackboots off our necks, and perhaps then I can feel more compassion again?