Features

The great EU power trap

28 May 2016

9:00 AM

28 May 2016

9:00 AM

Soon after the date for the EU referendum was set, Timothy Garton Ash published a piece in this magazine under the title ‘A conservative case for staying in’. He was followed by Ian Buruma, attacking the idea that, having left the EU, the British would be more free. And then, after the Obama visit to London, there was Anne Applebaum, assuring us that the US had ‘excellent reasons’ for being opposed to Brexit.

Like the little boy at the back of the street brawl in the old Punch cartoon, I want to ask: ‘Is this a private fight, or can any former foreign editor of The Spectator join in?’ Tim Garton Ash was succeeded in that role by Ian Buruma; I came next, and was followed by Anne Applebaum. We all went our separate ways: Ian to teach in the US, Anne to spend much of her time in Poland, and Tim to add lustre to St Antony’s College, Oxford. (I too ended up in Oxford, though at a less Europeanist venue — St Antony’s being the VIP international airport lounge of academia.) I remain friends with all of them. On this issue, however, they will not be surprised to hear that I think they are all mistaken.

We are warned about the possible effect of Brexit on the ‘crisis-torn’ EU, and told that we should not let Europe ‘collapse into protectionism and authoritarianism’, lest it fall prey to ‘disintegration, national hostilities, xenophobia and illiberalism’. The current crisis may be a rather short-term basis on which to decide one’s vote on such a long-term issue, but never mind. Such harping on present dangers raises the obvious question: if this rickety building is under such dangerous stresses and strains, wouldn’t we be safer standing outside it?

Tim Garton Ash replies that withdrawal is not an option for Britain, because throughout our history we have been ‘ineluctably drawn in to the travails of a troubled continent’. This is a common argument among historians: that the British have always needed to protect their strategic interests in continental Europe. But in the past those interests have been ‘strategic’ more or less in the military sense of the term, as we have intervened to curb a hegemonic power — France or Germany — that could threaten us with a blockade or an invasion. Does anyone really imagine that we face such a danger from any western European power today?

Even if that historical argument were valid now, those who wield it would need to explain why the best or perhaps the only way for the UK to defend its strategic interests in Europe is to submit to a European supranational government. Non-membership of the EU does not equal ‘isolationism’. It is surely possible that an independent UK, active on the world stage and remaining a strong member of Nato, would be better placed to defend its long-term interests on the Continent than one which is increasingly obliged to do as European policy–makers say.


It seems deliciously easy to suppose that a united bloc of 28 countries, with 508 million inhabitants, will be a super-powerful force on the world stage. Yet super-power can have super effects only when it is directed at coherent policy goals — which the EU struggles, and often fails, to agree on. The problem here is built into the very nature of the organisation. On many important issues, unanimity among so many countries with very different interests is simply impossible; and when agreement is lacking, the result is a kind of auto-paralysis, where decisive action is ruled out.

We saw this, shamefully, in the case of Bosnia, where the EU dithered until the Americans stepped in to end the war. And in some ways we see it today over Kosovo, where the EU tries to tell that country what to do, while officially having no policy whatsoever on whether it is an independent state, as 23 member states think, or a province of Serbia, as five do.

Much has been made of the idea that Putin would like us to leave the EU. Yet an increasingly neutered EU, trying and failing to make its own coherent foreign policy, would surely serve his purpose better, and his advantage would be all the greater if Britain were locked inside it. Even today it would take only the veto of Cyprus (heavily dependent on Russian money), or Greece (under its passionately pro-Moscow government) to stymie any new anti-Putin policy. Imagine the future implications of this, if the EU realises its long-stated dream of running its own defence policy — a dream which, even if it is not aimed at undermining Nato, might well have that effect, by giving the US the ideal excuse to reduce its involvement in the defence of western Europe.

The obvious solution to the problem of auto-paralysis would be to decide more EU foreign policy by majority voting — as many MEPs have demanded for years. But then Britain would sometimes find itself obliged to obey policies which it did not think beneficial to itself, to Europe or to the world. There is a fundamental issue here, which might be called the supranational power trap: in order to make the supranational body to which we belong genuinely powerful, we must give it much more power over ourselves.

This already happens in ordinary law-making all the time. Currently the UK is on the losing side in one in eight of all majority-vote decisions in the Council of Ministers. No doubt, by the law of averages, there must be some occasions when our small share of the vote (one 28th on the country count, and about one eighth on the population count) plays a decisive role in pushing the total just over the thresholds (55 and 65 per cent, respectively); but mostly the pre-existing majority of other countries will dictate the outcome. Yes, our skilled officials can enter the policy-making process at earlier stages of the process. But they are the officials of just one country out of 28; and in the end it is the vote that decides. When we vote for the winning side, some like to trumpet our ‘influence’. In Aesop’s fable the fly on the chariot’s axle-tree exclaimed: ‘See what a lot of dust I raise!’

For me, the most important issue is the one that flows directly from these problems: the loss of democracy. This huge artificial structure would indeed be paralysed if all decisions required unanimity. But once our laws and policies are made by EU majority voting, we begin to sacrifice the most precious thing of all: the principle that those who make our laws and rule us are chosen by us, and can be removed by us. European elections, and tinkering with the so-called democratic deficit in Brussels, are entirely beside the point here, as the EU is not, for any of its member populations, the primary political community, the ‘demos’ on which genuine democracy is based.

Most advocates of a Remain vote simply ignore this issue. Some contrive to suggest that it is just a matter of accepting technical regulations for the single market — whereas the range of EU law-making does in fact go much further than that. And some like to imply that if people do not want to put themselves under a supranational government, they must be harking back to a nostalgic (and probably right-wing) concept of ‘sovereignty’ which has no validity in the modern world.

Sovereignty is not in fact outmoded. But the term has become so misunderstood that it is probably better to put it aside, in this debate, and just talk about democratic self-government instead. I have yet to hear any leading Remainer explain why this valuable thing — which should be equally precious to both left and right — is worth sacrificing for the benefits, whether geopolitical or economic, that they think we shall get from staying in the EU.

When it suits them, Messrs Cameron and Osborne like to make very long-term predictions about the UK after Brexit, confidently telling us what the economy will be like in 15 years’ time. It is now 40 years since we were last given a referendum, so here is an even longer-term question for them. If we stay in the EU, and if it follows the political trajectory which it has so consistently taken, just what do they think our democratic self-government will be like 40 years from now?

Noel Malcolm is a senior research fellow in history at All Souls College, Oxford.

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Show comments
  • Old School Liberal

    This hits on the most surprising and depressing point about this referendum. When you talk about sovereignty and democracy people just don’t seem to care. It is as if people simply don’t know the value of what they will be giving away. It’s a sad state of affairs.

    • Bonkim

      People have got soft and care more for their worldly pleasures and modern conveniences. The concept of the nation state is on the way out as did the era of Empires a hundred years back. We are numbed into submission by fear of the unknown – independence is a state of mind and we have lost it.

      • John Carins

        No one wants to rock the boat. We have lost the stomach for a fight. As Maj Gen Tim Cross (Veterans for Britain) said we should not have to live in fear.

        • Bonkim

          Regrettably if you don’t fight you don’t get what you want. Others will rule over you.

        • Leon Wolfeson

          And yet that very fear, of every single other EU nation, is what I see pushed at me.

          • John Carins

            You are mixing different types of fear. Britain does not fear its neighbours with which it co-operates. This fear or bullying is one being perpetrated by the British government on its own people.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Fear is fear. You are very much arguing against that cooperation for fearing each of those countries.

      • Hysteria

        Yip. And the destruction of the nation state is specifically the plan as posited by Coudenhaven -Kalergi, and written into the EU treaties by Monet et al.

        • Leon Wolfeson

          Oh, so your fantasy…

      • Marvin

        The young people are rightly ignorant of history of the world and that all the peoples of the world are not like them. So ignorance breeds blind altruism until it is too late, like now.

    • Santiago

      A generation that knows no alternative; is risk adverse with habitual consumption of the media without the selective or critical skills to think for themselves has created this scenario.

    • Lady Magdalene

      It’s a feature of the fact that we haven’t suffered invasion or governance by a real dictatorship (we have an elected one). People simply don’t understand what losing any control over your government can actually mean.

      The anti-democratic and increasingly dictatorial EU annoys them; it’s making them angry … but they haven’t yet understood that the EU can do what it da.. well pleases and their is NOTHING they can do to stop it. When they do finally wake up to it, it will be too late.

      • Leon Wolfeson

        And yet the EU does not fit your fantasy. Oh well.

        • rapscallion

          Trust me Wolfie – it is not a fantasy – It’s a bloody nightmare!

          • Leon Wolfeson

            No, I don’t trust you, as you say you want to murder me.
            Your nightmare that you can’t murder freely…

          • rapscallion

            And I trust you as far as I can throw you with two broken arms sitting in a wheelchair. Why should I want to murder you? You’re a perfect example of idiocy. I don’t actually want to murder anybody, and that, strangely enough includes you. You should be sectioned though. You’re as mad as a three legged cat trying to bury its business on an ice rink.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Yes, why do you want to murder me, and your other fantasies. As you also want to abuse mental health laws against those with other views… as you project from your issues.

            No surprise you’re a eugenics man, of course.

          • rapscallion

            Did you actually read my post. Can you actually read English?, or is it a jumbled collection of words and letters. Try reading it again – s l o w l y.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Ah yes, gotta slow down to your speed, as you blame me for your issues.

            I was too nice, I see, you’re out to murder all Jews and likely lots of other people. Well.
            (Yes, you are being mocked, Serial Biter)

    • Brigantian

      It is the result of brainwashing and indoctrination in our schools. If children are told lies, and told that everything their parents tell them is lies, and their grandparents are locked up in a ‘home’, then they grow up believing lies and truth is lost in a generation.

    • Hysteria

      We are all frogs, gently boiling to death. A few of us have thicker skins and retain a semblance of reasoned thinking.

    • Leon Wolfeson

      I’m all for Parliament and Sovereignty.
      Which is what we have, stop trying to end it (and our democracy).

      • WTF

        No we don’t !

        Courtesy of Yeoman –

        Kenneth Clarke, Conservative Chancellor in International Currency Review Vol 23 No 4 1996
        “I look forward to the day when the Westminster Parliament is just a council chamber in Europe”

        Claud Cheysson, former French Foreign Minister and member of the European Commission:
        “The Europe of Maastricht could only have been created in the absence of democracy”

        Klaus Kinkel, German Foreign Minister
        “Politicians should have the courage to take decisions….against the will of the people”

        Raymonde Barre, French Prime Minister and Commissioner
        “I have never understood why public opinion about European ideas should be taken into account”

        Costas Verras, President of the Brussels Association of Journalists
        “The Commission acts like a military junta”

        M. Willy de Clerq, MEP
        “EC
        Governments should not try to explain the Maastricht Treaty. It is
        unexplainable. Treaty decisions are far too removed from daily life for
        people to understand”

        • Leon Wolfeson

          So you deny Parliamentary Sovereignty.

          And then you quote a bunch of unrelated issues, and some conspiracy claims. Right.

          • WTF

            Currently it is severely curtailed by the EU but by leaving the EU we regain full parliamentary sovereignty. If you can’t comprehend the references above its pointless saying more as you wouldn’t understand that either. I wont waste anymore of my time on deniers or fools but especially you !

          • Leon Wolfeson

            So you don’t have any idea about Parliamentary sovereignty, and are running away from any possible knowledge about it. Right.

          • WTF

            Pseudologia Fantastica alert “Lying Wolfie”

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Yes, thanks for alerting people again to your issues and your other personality and hence you there.

            Why don’t you understand Parliamentary Sovereignty, spammer?

          • WTF

            Pragnosticism – Because I’m not as intelligent as you !

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Mr. Pragnosticism – your talking to yourself…er…you’re yourself.

    • Marvin

      Lost forever to a bunch of crooks and buffoons who have invited Europe to be invaded, and that is for keeps as well. The harvest they are about to reap will be bitter and deadly.

  • John Carins

    The EU is certainly a trap. Bit by bit the fly is being wound in by the spider at the centre of the web.

  • Teacher

    If you want to join a gang more than the gang wants you to join – they have all the power.

  • Dryermartinithanyours

    Beautiful piece, thank you Noel. Underscoring which is the hollow question: ‘What on earth has happened to our own self-confidence, let alone our logic, that we are seriously entertaining such thin and shallow Remain arguments?’ The roots of illiberalism and megalomania are more to be found in the superficially trans-national EU, than in natural forms of cultural identity and sovereignty.

    People who see the EU as a bulwark of liberalism remind me of early Internet enthusiasts, who were inclined to write such things as: “I can’t see how people who can communicate across borders can ever fight one another.” Global communicators from ISIS to common garden trolls have proven the naivety of such logic.

    • Trailblazer10

      Cultural marxism.

      • Leon Wolfeson

        So the marxists in your head…

  • Boleslaw Bierut

    I’d terminate friendship with Ash&Buruma the day they attacked Hirsi Ali. But u English don’t care. Otherwise yes, just get the eff out from this old boy country club with former commies masterminding its foreign policy and EU Commission opening its arms to islamist Erdogan and his gang.

  • Nick of Guildford

    Yet another Brexiteer’s piece of writing seeking to illustrate how much sovereignty you can fit on the end of a pin rather than showing any genuine concern or practical alternative to the EU that would secure jobs and the economy. It is that lack of concern/alternative that forces the increasingly shrill Brexit camp to label every factual statistic that illustrates the folly of Brexit as “scaremongering” – what else can they do when they can’t even agree amongst themselves any viable alternative prospectus.
    No wonder that over the last couple of weeks I have detected a significant swing to the remaIN camp as the wider public have realised that the Brexiteers have nothing to offer them.

    • Frankfurt 13

      So you signed up to Disqus today specifically to write that?

    • KingEric

      If the arguments for staying in are so compelling, why does the Remain campaign appear so desperate by telling the most appalling lies ( our trade with Europe reducing to almost zero if we vote out being the worst of them) and promise armaggedon unless we vote remain?

    • Richard Lally

      Thank you Nick, you saved me some typing.

    • Hysteria

      The lack of an honest “in” Campaign speaks volumes to the real
      Agenda

      “The most puzzling development in politics during the last decade is the apparent determination of Western European leaders to re-create the Soviet Union in Western Europe.”

      Mikhail Gorbachev

      ‘Europe’s nations should be guided towards the superstate without their people understanding what is happening.  This can be accomplished by successive steps, each disguised as having an economic purpose, but which will eventually and irreversibly lead to federation.’ Jean Monnet, Founding Father of the European Union

      • Leon Wolfeson

        Gorbachev…who was wrong about basically everything. Well, there you go.

        Your issue with there being an “in” campaign at all speaks to your agenda.

    • Aberrant_Apostrophe

      You’ve been looking at those dodgy polls, haven’t you? Have a look at this link:

      http://www.breitbart.com/london/2016/05/26/questions-raised-anomalous-brexit-polls-showing-massive-leads-remain/

      • Leon Wolfeson

        Where’s he been looking at your polls?
        As you show your bias.

  • Richard Lally

    Nation state based sovereignty is increasingly inadequate to defending citizens from the power of multinational corporations, multinational criminals and multinational terrorists. It is also inadequate to tackling issues such as climate change.
    It is sensible for some laws to be determined at an EU level by the same logic that makes it sensible for some laws to be determined in Westminster rather than the local town hall.
    California (pop: 40m), which would be one of the richest countries in the world if it was independent, allows some laws to be determined in Washington. Yes it means that some federal laws probably do not have majority support in California, but it gives it tariff-free access to a single market of over 330m.
    It is sensible for Britain to remain in the EU (unless of course you believe all the paranoid nonsense that Brexiters believe!).

    • Frankfurt 13

      The EU is told what to do by multinational corporation lobbists .http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/may/08/lobbyists-european-parliament-brussels-corporate

    • WTF

      There’s been precious few examples where the EU has actually gone to battle against multi-nationals with Microsoft being a rare exception and that took for decades to occur so cut the cr** that being in the EU protects us from the excess’s, cartel like operations and tax laundering of companies like Apple, Google, Starbucks or Amazon. In fact, being one trading block it has allowed these companies to use tax havens like Junckers Luxembourg or Ireland.

      California one of the richest countries in the world ? Are you joking. Its the very fact its part of the USA it survives as without it, it would be bankrupt, if it carries on having more sanctuary cities and free loaders it will be bust again before long. It can’t provide its own water for its citizens and has to import most of it from elsewhere. Without that it couldn’t grow much food and would have to import from other states (countries). Sure, it has technology companies but no manufacturing is done there. It doesn’t have any significant oil to speak of and is NOT self sufficient in utilities or food as its a thin strip of land squeezed between the Pacific and the Rockies with a fair amount of it being desert or scrub land.

      Have you every visited California and driven north and south of LA as well as inland, I have many times !

      PS – What the UK decides to do has little to do with California !

      • Richard Lally
        • WTF

          And as a separate country without energy and water from other states, just how would they fare ? The Colorado is a critical source of irrigation and urban water for southern California, providing between 55 and 65 percent of the total supply. Without water from outside the state, California couldn’t exist in the manner it does.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            And England, without Scotland…

          • WTF

            You’re out of your comfort zone again, we’re talking about California being a sovereign country not England and Scotland.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            So you’re whining at me, denying the Acts of Union and ignoring the economic similarities…lol.

          • WTF

            Oh pleeeeeze !

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Facts, please, Fash.

          • WTF

            On what, I’ve already given some, where’s yours ?

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Hate is not a fact.

          • WTF

            You’re right, its an emotion and in this context is directed at the EU with good reason.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            No, hate is not a reason either.

          • WTF

            Thats a matter of personal opinion not just yours “Lying Wolfie” !

          • Leon Wolfeson

            So, your fantasy of me argues with yourself.

            Hate is an excuse, period.

            An excuse for things like this; http://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-germany-crime-farright-idUKKCN0YE1RV

          • WTF

            Even more reason to distance the UK from Germany with hate crime surging there. I would have thought that if you’re a Jew as you claim, you’d want to put as much distance from the EU and the UK as you can “Lying Wolfie” !

          • Leon Wolfeson

            So you ignore the fact it’s your fellow travellers, and across Europe.

            As you think you, Mr. Lying Wolfie/WTF, are Jewish which is just funny.
            Your attempts to normalize hate and hence keep your type of beloved crime rising are sad.

          • WTF

            Pragnosticism – You’ve lost me but I agree !

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Mr. Pragnosticism – your losing yourself is your own issue.

          • wibbling

            All you’ve done is spew abuse. At no point have you engaged with the debate or furthered knowledge. While this is entertaining, for a time, it’s really quite sad to see your bitter spite fouling every discussion.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            No, I have not posted your posts, as you spew hate at me for having a different view, and hence a debate might occur.

            No surprise you’re frantically defending your Fash buddy, of course.

          • wibbling

            Would be richer. Scotland would collapse into poverty.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Really, how will you steal the money?

      • Leon Wolfeson

        …because of your sort of right-wing ideology. The UK government has been even more accommodating, of course. Heck, there’s still issues with the Chanel Islands, and Britain controls over half the world’s tax havens.

        Your inability to see the parallels between England and California are sad, lol. “Little to do”…lol

        • WTF

          England is a country, California is a state, get it !

          • Leon Wolfeson

            So you deny the Acts of Union.

            Oh, and economic situation.

          • WTF

            No, but irrelevant

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Ah, so you deny relevant things…oh, and don’t care about the economy.

          • WTF

            Grammar Alert –

            Neither were questions as no question marks, they were both projections by you. However I’m starting to understand some of your Yoda speak so I presumed the first part was meant as a question.

            The 2nd part however, is that supposed to be a question, a rhetoric point or something else ? (Hint, this is a question to you, hence the ?)

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Yes, thanks for alerting people to your issues, as you claim your post is a projection by me.

            As you read your fantasies, and admit your poor English skills. The answer is take more ESOL lessons.

          • WTF

            Let others judge.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            And yet your string of pseudo-scientific “mental health” insults exists…
            Why back away now?

          • WTF

            Its getting boring and its time for others to jump in if they can be bothered but I wouldn’t blame them if they don’t.

            There’s not a lot of fun trying to deal with a “Lying Wolfie” when every other word is an insult and every other is rambling nonsense ! You have to be made of stern stuff to put up with such a deranged individual suffering from a major self persecution complex.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Yes, the facts are boring. You can’t blame people for not subjecting themselves to your abuse? Neither can I, as you fight a phantasm in your head, you.

            There’s nothing complex in your Jewhate.

          • WTF

            More Delusions !

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Great, but why tell me about them, spammer?

          • WTF

            Pragnosticism – Fine

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Mr. Pragnosticism – you were fined? And?

          • wibbling

            What *is* wrong with you?

          • Leon Wolfeson

            I’m Jewish and alive.

          • wibbling

            leo, do g away. Yet again, in defeat you always play the man, never the ball.

            Thus you are either a bully or ignorant. Why are you like this? What’s wrong with you? What are you frightened of? Why are you so unpleasant? It’s no fun for intelligent, Right minded people to have a hateful Lefty spitting poison all over the place. You get nothing from it as you don’t engage with us and educate yourself.

            Why do you do it?

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Ah, censorship, as you blame me for your being defeated.

            No, I do not share your primary traits, as you note I’m “wrong” for being Jewish and alive… I’m frightened of your thugs, of course, and the people they’d hurt… as you say only your tiny minority are “Right”, and as you blame me for your love of poison and hates.

            As you whine I don’t commit suicide on order for you.
            I get to mock your personalities.

        • Old Nick

          Chanel No. 5 ?

          • Leon Wolfeson

            And what do you produce? Mockery. Sigh.

          • Old Nick

            Some people deserve to be mocked, however sorry they claim to feel for themselves.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            I hear your excuse.

          • Old Nick

            Whereas you have none

        • wibbling

          Good lord. If the UK controlled ‘half the world’s tax haven’s’ people wouldn’t use them as tax havens you berk.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Why do you cry out to Satan?

            As you deny;

            Jersey
            Isle of Man
            Bermuda
            British Virgin Islands
            Cayman Islands
            For some things, the City of London

            All of which are under British rule.

            Oh hey, you’re wrong again.

    • AWoLsco

      “It is sensible for Britain to remain in the EU”

      It was sensible for Britain to be in the COMMON MARKET.
      It is not sensible for Britain to be in the EUSSR, with its Eurogendarmerie ie KGB, for two seconds.

      • Brigantian

        Except the ‘Common Market’ was always a lie and never really existed. If in 1973 the people alive then had known what it said in the Treaty of Rome, Ted Heath would have been lynched. There would have been no ‘Remain’ vote in 1975.
        Unfortunately back then there was no internet and actually being able to read the Treaty was a task requiring real commitment. You had to decide who was telling the truth and those who did (like Tony Benn & Enoch Powell) were mercilessly attacked by the BBC and the rest of the gutter press.

        • AWoLsco

          My reply has been withdrawn for scrutiny by the moderators, with the appellation ‘pending’.
          If past experience is anything to go by, it will ‘pend’ for a very long time
          ie from now to eternity.
          What did I say that was so wrong?
          Did I use any bad language?…..No.
          Did I insult any religious or racial group?…..No
          Did I point out the Achilles’ heel of the EU and why it may not succeed as a viable economic and political entity?…….Yes.

    • Aberrant_Apostrophe

      “It is sensible for Britain to remain in the EU”. If the EU had stayed like it was when there were six economically similar countries, I might agree. However, by expanding and taking on more and more relatively poor countries and implementing a single currency against the advice of the vast majority of economists, it had sown the seeds of its own destruction. Why should we stay shackled to a soon-to-be rotting corpse? And that isn’t paranoia – they really are after us, or rather our money.

    • wibbling

      No, it is utterly idiotic to remain in the EU for every reason you state.

      Those international criminals benefit from the incompetence of the EU – look at horsemeat.

      Multinational terrorists? The Eu has foisted millions of immigrants who we cannot check, forced rapists and murderers on us that we cannot deport. Again, the EU is at fault.

      Considering those organisations lobby the EU for money and favourable regulation – and, because the EU is utterly corrupt and EUrocrats easily bribed – get it the obvious problem again is the EU.

      Climate change is an invention of the Left to extort tax from earners and give it to wasters. It is irrelevant, but another example of corruption and fraud.

      You are wrong. we will only properly resolve these issues you raise by leaving the EU.

      we must leave the EU.

  • Sean L

    Politics is ultimately a matter of allegiance: whose side you’re on. The demos in question here is *us*, rooted in a national idea of who *we* are. Timothy Garton Ash and those of his ilk are joined by their repudiation of this idea which, at least in their own minds, they’ve superseded and regard as rather petty and vulgar.

  • davidblameron

    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>…THURSDAY 23rd JUNE : YOUR LOCAL POLLING STATION : VOTE LEAVE X…<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

    • AWoLsco

      “VOTE LEAVE X.”

      ……and stay behind and check on the vote count.
      The count will almost certainly be fiddled…..as it was in the Scottish referendum.
      There are few signs of panic in the ‘remain’ camp. I wonder why.

      • davidblameron

        I do hope you are not suggesting impropriety in British Elections.

        • AWoLsco

          “not suggesting impropriety in British Elections.”

          and I sincerely hope you are NOT suggesting….. ‘impropriety ie fiddling, does NOT occur in British elections.
          The whole purpose of postal votes is to be able to fiddle election results.
          No voting unless you turn up with a valid passport or recent photograph signed by an officer of the law or justice of the peace.

          • davidblameron

            if the postal voting system is a vehicle for cooking the figures, I just hope it’s done in favour of LEAVE

          • AWoLsco

            “I just hope it’s done in favour of LEAVE”

            Fight evil with evil?
            Of the two opposing points of view, who do you think, seriously, is best placed to get the ‘right’ result?

          • Leon Wolfeson

            “The whole purpose of postal votes is to be able to fiddle election results.”

            Yea, those evil elderly and disabled people… as you want to start with ever more restrictions on voters, check. If you don’t have the cash, don’t vote, etc.

          • AWoLsco

            “Yea, those evil elderly and disabled people”

            Aw shucks Leon, isn’t that absolutely awful.
            Well you have to admit, Leon, we are straying a bit off the beaten track when it comes to democracy.
            Initially, the vote was given only to men of fighting age.
            Then slaves and paupers were given the vote.
            Then women, and foreigners ie those not indigenous to those Islands.
            Now we include cripples and the demented.
            Instead of improvement and refinement, we seem to be headed on down a path towards degradation, unwieldiness, ineffectiveness and a morass of corruption and downright dishonesty.
            I wish I could believe that you were sincere in your desire for the crippled and demented to have a vote, but a little voice in the back of my head suggests that you may be a shyster of some type that wishes to exploit those people for the nefarious purposes of yourself and your fellow gangsters.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Why do you have a problem with elderly and disabled voters?

            And why would I “have” to “admit” your issues? As you decry universal sufferage, and rights workers bled for. As you spew hate at all sorts of British people… as you talk about where you want to go.

            Your sad bigotry, and refusal to admit the facts about the statistics on postal voting… and I am not responsible for your mental issues. And Jewish gangsters like me, well…er…

          • AWoLsco

            “As you decry universal sufferage, ”

            I do. My own mother has the vote, but is in no fit state to exercise it.
            She actually believes WW2 was a just war and that jews are honest hard-done-by folks.
            I mean, you can’t get much crazier than that can you?

            No, Leon, your days of playing the haplesss, innocent victim and getting the benefit of the doubt are coming to an end.
            A new, less-Christian, cynical generation is on the march…and sees right through you and your little games.

            “rights workers bled for”

            Rubbish. A gross exaggeration. Nobody in Britain has bled for anything in over 5 centuries.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            No surprise you feel that way. Can’t let other views exist, of course, as you cry for your lost Reich.

            As you want to victimize Jews like me…as you talk about your Fash marchers… as you deny Britain’s history, in your PC hate…

          • AWoLsco

            “as you cry for your lost Reich.”

            Correct…….just as you cry for your dominion over us goys, as you had in the Soviet Union, where you lined us up and put a bullet in the back of our necks as though we were animals in an abbatoir….and that was when you were being ‘nice’ to us.

          • wibbling

            Leo, I don’t care if you’re Jewish. You’re still a wombat.

            It is notable that instead of engaging in the discussion you seek to silence it by throwing around insults.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            So you don’t care about your primary motivation? Hmm! You came to WTF’s defence, that’s sad, as you blame me for your issues and support his Jewhate, decrying debate because it might happen with different views.

            No surprise you consider Jews sub-Human, of course.

          • wibbling

            And again, frightened and afraid, leo plays the man not the ball. A Left wing coward in full flight.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Blaming me for your issues again.
            As you want to drive Jews out of Britain, check.

            In addition to your problem with elderly and disabled voters.

          • wibbling

            How do you explain the rife corruption in postal voting, then? Why were dead people able to vote? The system didn’t work.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            I don’t have that fantasy.

            The not-very-widespread problem is with certain types of check when granting postal votes, and can be fixed easily if the government pay to do so.

  • DwightVandryver

    Heavens! These points have been raised time and again over recent years, but it’s nice to see them all in one place.
    It’s self-evident that to be stronger in the EU, as Cameron claims, that Britain has to “go with the flow”, which means “ever closer union”. While it’s true that Britain has opt-outs and vetoes that it could use, if it were to be awkward and oppose the thrust towards ever closer union, it would remain inconsequential on the periphery, as it has been for several decades. A Remain result would give the incumbent government a mandate for ever closer union, so it’s difficult to see under what circumstances it would use these opt-outs and vetoes.
    Of course, what remains of British sovereignty would be lost as the European project forges ahead towards a blancmange of reluctant vassal states calling itself the “European Union”. Where will the power be concentrated, and in whose hands? It seems that those with the biggest voice in the EU are unelected, not answerable to the people they are supposed to serve. The EU has become a clique of power hungry people serving their own interests, and those of the institutions and corporations that support them.
    This referendum really is a once in a lifetime occasion, never to be repeated. Democracy in this country hangs by a thread and if the result is to stay in, we can kiss it goodbye.

    • Augustus

      “Where will the power be concentrated, and in whose hands?”

      The EU elite will become further and further removed from the people, until:

      “Some party hack decreed that the people
      had lost the government’s confidence
      and could only regain it with redoubled effort.
      If that is the case, would it not be simpler,
      If the government simply dissolved the people
      And elected another?”
      -Translated from Die Lösung (The Solution) by Bertolt Brecht.

    • Leon Wolfeson

      No, actually you just start negotiating in good faith, talking to people…get a consensus for your views by not being unpleasant.

      Your denial of Parliamentary Sovereignty is also just sad.

      Your “democracy” of control by your few, hence…

      • yeoman

        Kenneth Clarke, Conservative Chancellor in International Currency Review Vol 23 No 4 1996
        “I look forward to the day when the Westminster Parliament is just a council chamber in Europe”

        Claud Cheysson, former French Foreign Minister and member of the European Commission:
        “The Europe of Maastricht could only have been created in the absence of democracy”

        Klaus Kinkel, German Foreign Minister
        “Politicians should have the courage to take decisions….against the will of the people”

        Raymonde Barre, French Prime Minister and Commissioner
        “I have never understood why public opinion about European ideas should be taken into account”

        Costas Verras, President of the Brussels Association of Journalists
        “The Commission acts like a military junta”

        M. Willy de Clerq, MEP
        “EC Governments should not try to explain the Maastricht Treaty. It is unexplainable. Treaty decisions are far too removed from daily life for people to understand”

        • WTF

          Excellent quotes that belie the claimed democracy of the EU !

        • Leon Wolfeson

          So you quote people who are not negotiating, and some conspiracy theories. Right.

          • yeoman

            Politicians from the heart of the EU enterprise. Or should I not believe them?

          • wibbling

            There’s a pattern from you: you don’t like it so you attack it. Why, for once don’t you accept that everything you think is wrong? Your head won’t explode when reality touches it.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            No, it’s your pattern – I post, you spew hate at me. As you scream that it’s wrong to i.e. condemn murder, as I do, and as you show your blanket Jewhate.

            And no, you just want to kill me for being Jewish, right.

      • WTF

        Here’s a heads up on what negotiation mean –

        A negotiation is a formal discussion between people who are trying to reach an agreement over a contract, business or political arrangement. It usually relies on the fact that both parties want that arrangement for mutual benefit.

        There lies the major hurdle, the EU neither wants nor seeks any new agreement on previous arrangements. Consequently you have no option but to look at alternative paths to reach what you are seeking.

        Example 1 – If I go into Tescos and they wont reduce the cost of tomatoes to what I think is reasonable, I walk out and go into Lidl.

        Example 2 – If Trump were to gain anything debating with Saunders, he would, but as he wont gain anything, he wont debate.

        With the EU there is nothing we can offer them on negotiation except more control over us which is the exact opposite to what we are seeking. Consequently we have to use the ‘negative’ approach and take away from them benefits we give them, ie EU membership. If they had been willing to offer what Cameron promised the UK electorate in his manifesto we wouldn’t be here now as this is not all down to Cameron messing up, its down to Merkel & Juncker as well. Their recent tone over fear mongering about WWIII and the collapse of the EU shows they know they messed up and misjudged the mood.

        Parliamentary sovereignty has been significantly diminished under the EU despite still having MP’s elected by the people and not appointed by some un-elected body.

        • Leon Wolfeson

          Try understanding it and not copy/pasting. Of course, it’s also quite wrong – negotiation often happens between hostile sides. Divorce, for instance.

          As you blame the EU for your issues. As you decry Parliamentary Sovereignty, which cannot be “diminished” in practical terms – it’s either existent or not.

          • WTF

            Copy/pasting what ? I sorry it looked too professional for you compared to your usual yoda-speak but I can assure you that divorce is often acrimonious rather than negotiated.

            The only one with issues is you as usual, you never let up with your projected grievances and persecution and I’m surprised you haven’t included Fash and Jew-hater in your micro-rant.

            Diminish – to lessen the authority or reputation of (someone or something) : to describe (something) as having little value or importance

            The former refers to Parliament the latter refers to you !

          • Leon Wolfeson

            So you don’t understand the concept…. as you want to cause me issues for being Jewish, Fash, right. Keep talking about your plans for Britain.

          • WTF

            Expressive aphasia alert “Lying Wolfie”

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Yes, thanks for alerting people again to your issues and your other personality and hence you there.

            As you show I’m correct again. Thanks for the Jewhate.

          • WTF

            Pragnosticism – You’re welcome !

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Mr. Pragnosticism, your spam is highly unwelcome. And?

          • wibbling

            You’re not correct at all, you’re just a coward who, when faced with the truth resorts to insults. You’ve been defeated yet again. Go away.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            No, I’m not you, as you try and silence me for being Jewish. And your Reich lost.

          • wibbling

            Ah, here we go. Leo in full flow: having been soundly defeated and looking a fool he resorts to abuse.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Your issues are yours, as you blame me for what you see in your mirror – your reich lost, I’m alive and Jewish, get over it.

          • wibbling

            We do understand it. Just because you don’t like the definition doesn’t make it wrong.

            You’re confused: parliament is dictated by the EU and enacts EU law on the behalf of the EU. Heck, even our budget has to be permitted by the EU.

            We must leave the EU.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Your personalities are wrong.
            Your hate of democracy is sad.

            Parliamentary Sovereignty rests with Parliament. Period.

      • wibbling

        You cannot neogtiate with the EU. it’s like talking to you.

        The government is NOT sovereign! We do not have a say over so many things is is ludicrous. Heck, Norway tells us what fishing rights we have. Norway, the country that governs us by fax.

        • Leon Wolfeson

          You don’t want to negotiate with the EU, right, you admit.

          As you deny British Sovereignty. And make up silly fantasies.

    • wibbling

      Yup, we must leave the EU. If we don’t, we will never be given a choice again. The fascist communist EU will obliterate us.

  • Brigantian

    “Does anyone really imagine that we face such a danger from any western European power today?”
    The answer is yes, only this time we are inside the hegemonic power and subject to indoctrination and brain washing as never before.
    The attack today by the unelected and quite unelectable Jean Claude Junckers on Boris Johnson, until recently the elected mayor of the EU’s largest and only prosperous city, proves the point.

  • Pretty_Polly

    The Master Plan

    The European Commission has announced that, in order to streamline EU communications and meetings, English will now be officially phased out in favour of EU Germolish..

    The consequences for the English language are as follows..

    In the first year, “s” will replace the soft “c” as in sivil servants. The hard “c” will be dropped in favour of the “k”, which should klear up some konfusion and allow one key less on keyboards.

    There will be growing publik enthusiasm in the sekond year, when the troublesome “ph” will be replaced with “f”, making words like “fotograf” 20% shorter.

    In the third year, publik akseptanse of the new spelling kan be expekted to reach the stage where more komplikated changes are possible. Governments will enkourage the removal of double letters which have always ben a deterent to akurate speling.

    Also, al wil agre that the horible silent “e”, as in disgrasful, should be removed.

    By the fourth year, the publik wil be reseptiv to steps such as kompletely replasing “th” with “z” and “w” with “v”.

    During ze fifz yer, ze unesesary “o” kan be dropd from vords kontaining “ou”, such as you, and similar changes vud of kurs be aplid to ozer kombinations of leters. After zis fifz yer, ve vil hav a reli sensibl riten styl! Zer vil be no mor trubls or difikultis and everivun vil find it ezi to understand ech ozer.

    Ze Drem Vil Finali Kom Tru !

    • terence patrick hewett

      Ach, ven ziss sili vor is ofer ve vill plai colf on yor crous mors nein?

    • Leon Wolfeson

      You’re just being silly.

      • wibbling

        You’d know!

        • Leon Wolfeson

          Yes, I can read your post and see you’re being silly. And?

    • red2black

      Transylvanian? Listen to ‘Vampiria’ by ‘Moonspell’.

  • congreve

    Anyone who believes that the purpose of US/NATO is the ‘defence’ of Western Europe has not being paying attention.

  • MummyofPrudence
    • Aberrant_Apostrophe

      Interesting. So, as we all suspected, it’s a lot closer than the Remainers would have us think, which mean their argument are not convincing the undecideds. My own belief is that rigging the polls will backfire on the Remain side, as people who might have voted Remain might think “it’s in the bag” and so not get off their fat behinds to waddle down to the polling station. Thinking about it, that’s why Labour opened up postal voting to all, although they still have to get to the postbox of course.

      • Leon Wolfeson

        So as your suspicious usernames/personalities… right. As you whine some nonsense about “rig”, and whine about the evils of the elderly (right leaning) and disabled voting, etc.

        • WTF

          Just like Tower Hamlets mayoral rigging plus the latest ‘fix’ sending out postal ballots to a building site ! Right !!!!

          http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/local-elections/11580951/Fresh-voting-fraud-in-scandal-hit-borough-of-Tower-Hamlets.html

          • Leon Wolfeson

            So harping on the one corrupt area…which has been taken care of… and then you blame records not being updated, etc.

            What are you for, mandatory locators at all times for the peons?

          • WTF

            Deflection Alert !

          • wibbling

            He can’t handle the truth. It makes his head explode.

          • WTF

            I’ve tried to engage in a debate with this individual many times now but I’ve reached the point where its a total waste of my time.

            Based on his posts I’ve reached the conclusion he is suffering from a combination of Pseudologia Fantastica which is a form of pathological lying where the person is truly unaware that they are lying and Expressive Aphasia which is evident when his posts are akin to a person who suffers from a bad stutter. This all seems to be augmented by a severe case of persecution complex.

            To counter this in future, if I ever feel the need to reply to him, I’ll adopt the Pragnosticism approach which essentially agrees with everything he says no matter how weird, strange, insulting, wrong, lying, delusional or just plain bonkers, as its not worth my time trying to hold a serious debate with someone so badly afflicted with mental problems. Maybe a psychiatrist throw in like “I agree, but what do you think” would be the simplest response.

          • wibbling

            These are not isolated incidents. Blinding yourself to the truth won’t make it go away. We’ve already shown that leo. We know you’re frightened of it, but one day you’re going to have to accept you are wrong in everything you do and say.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            I get your hate is not isolated… I am quite willing to condemn criminals, and your personalities want to scare me, as you argue for example that murder is good, and it’s fine to steal food, and…

        • wibbling

          The evils of the elderly? Considering the Left are thoroughly repugnant, brutalist murderers that’s a joke. Read these comments: http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/may/12/hospital-policy-older-people-dying-ombudsman

          A more evil, twisted and perverted bunch of Left wing butchers you couldn’t imagine.

          There you are, the Left at work. Kill people! it’s for the greater good!

          • WTF

            Lenin on Trotsky –

            “Trotsky has never yet held a firm opinion on any important question of
            Marxism. He always contrives to worm his way into the cracks of any
            given difference of opinion, and desert one side for the other. At the
            present moment he is in the company of the Bundists and the liquidators.
            And these gentlemen do not stand on ceremony where the Party is
            concerned.”

            Sounds like the left today fighting among themselves be it Clinton & Saunders or Cobyn and the rest !

          • Leon Wolfeson

            So you spew PC bigotry at the left. As you show you can’t imagine what’s in your mirror, no more.

            Oh, and article which comes about because of the damage your right has done to the NHS…no surprise there. But of course, as you don’t want the poor to have access to care at all…

      • MummyofPrudence

        I hope that is the effect. I feel more positive about the campaign now that I have read the article.

  • morecakeplease

    In order to match England’s population density of 413 people per square kilometre, European countries would have to take in the following numbers of migrants:-

    Austria 26.4 million
    Denmark 12.4 million
    France 162.3 million
    Germany 65.6 million
    Greece 42.8 million
    Italy 64.7 million
    Poland 90.5 million
    Romania 79.4 million
    Spain 162.1 million
    Sweden 176.3 million

    Conversely, if England had the same population density as say France, it’s population would be 14.5 million.

    • Leon Wolfeson

      So, who dies first?

      • wibbling

        Depends who you are: Lefties, wasters, communists and fascists, socialists (or combinations thereof) want to kill the people doing the work and earning all the money.

        The Right want to stop people moving here and helping them locally through free trade adn market economics.

        Yet again, the Right are sensible and the Left raving psychotics.

        • Leon Wolfeson

          You list your Fash in there? LOL.
          Well, your confused PC bigotry is confused.

          As you claim the bankers are the only real workers, and get confused and use generalizations… as you pretend Capitalism is the Free Market, when in fact you’re fighting the four freedoms, trade-hater, and leeching off workers.

      • rapscallion

        You, with any luck

        • Leon Wolfeson

          Ah, you’re after the Jews. Unsurprising.

          • rapscallion

            Am I now? And where did I indicate the Chosen People then ?

          • Leon Wolfeson

            So you, “you” (die first, Jew) man, deny your posts…and then you admit your supremacist beliefs…oh dear.

    • congreve

      Good stats. I make that another 750 million Muslims. Not a problem.

      The Frogs have far too big a country for their needs and it is time they disgorged our share. Normandy, Anjou and Aquitaine will suffice. They can keep Calais.

    • Mr B J Mann

      The figures I use are:

      # – Country – Density/km2 – Area km2 – Population – Refugee Capacity vs UK/England

      53 U.K. 256 243,610 62,262,000

      111 Turkey 93 783,562 77,804,122 127.7/253.9 Million

      118 Greece 86 131,957 11,306,183 22.4/43.7 Million

      62 Italy 192 301,230 59,715,625 19.5/67.8 Million

      98 France 111 547,030 63,601,002 79.3/167.4 Million

      56 Germany 233 357,021 81,799,600 8.2/65.7 Million

      179 USA 33 9,826,675 321,170,000 2,191.4/3,773.4 Million

      England 417 130,279 53,000,000

      Note the capacity of Turkey (253.9) and the US (3,773.4 Million) to
      absorb refugees and other immigrants without becoming more densely
      populated than the UK!

      • WTF

        TMI I’m afraid, the other comparison gets to the nub of the problem far quicker and basically says no more immigration.

        • Mr B J Mann

          Not really.

          They’re the background info/response to those who want to know where the quick and dirty figures come from.

          The salient additions are Turkey (253.9) and the US (3,773.4 Million)!

  • antoncheckout

    From today’s ONS Immigration report – they counted only long-term immigration in their headline statistics – read on and you find buried in the small print:
    Short-term immigration of 1 to 12 months for all reasons in YE June 2014 was 1.2 million, a statistically significant increase of 110,000 visits compared with the previous year. Of these 62% (719,000) were for the reason “other”.

    And of course there’s no chance at all that any of these 1.2 million extra visitors coming here for up to a year (and that was two years ago) might have used the NHS, or put any strain at all on any public services or national infrastructure.

    The ONS (surely believers in Santa Claus and Peter Pan) state blankly that “Nearly 3 out of 4 (73%) of 1 to 12 month short-term immigrants leave within three months and all leave within 12 months.”
    As we know, the Border Agency admits it cannot keep track of who leaves and when – ONS must be clairvoyant, then: but it coyly does not explain how it comes to these figures..

    • Mr B J Mann

      And most EU “immigration” is “short term”:

      They come to do seasonal work, and then go home to their families for a while.

      And then come back again.

      Even if they have “permanent” jobs they go home for Christmas and Easter, etc……

  • Sanctimony

    VOTE LEAVE

  • Sanctimony

    Watch BREXIT THE MOVIE on you tube…. it is utterly compelling and terrifying….

    • Leon Wolfeson

      Watch a badly-researched piece of propaganda which is factually incorrect on sovereignty, for instance? Right.

      You’re a time waster.

      • Ian Warburton

        What is the incorrect fact on sovereignty?

        • Leon Wolfeson

          Parliamentary Sovereignty remains right where it is, in the commons.

          • wibbling

            Except, dear, desperate, confused leo – it doesn’t.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Yes, I get you hate Britain and want to steal sovereignty.

      • wibbling

        You’re referring to the EU propaganda films again, aren’t you?

        • Leon Wolfeson

          No, I’m referring to the one UKIP used EU funds for.

  • Jojje 3000

    The EU will have a substantial power over the UK, Brexit or not.

    • Aberrant_Apostrophe

      How? The EU is in its death throes because of the disastrous Euro, foolish expansionist ideas, and uncontrolled refugees flooding in. Brussels is rapidly going through the five stages of grieving: denial (everything is fine – we’ll just throw more more at the Eurozone and ignore the refugees who have now switched to landing in Italy), anger (how dare you threaten to Leave? – we’ll destroy you!), bargaining (to come just before June the 23rd), depression (Juncker doubles his breakfast intake), followed shortly by acceptance (Oh God, we’re f***ed).

      • Leon Wolfeson

        Ah yes, the evil EU (including Britain) you want to die. As you blame the Other… as you ignore rational self-interest, as you want them accept your “need” for a greater personal profit at workers expense…

        • wibbling

          Up the workers! Traktor production is up comrades!

          You’re a delight and a joy. You’re nuts and completely stupid in what you say and think, but it’s always a good laugh reading your incontinent drivel.

          Tell me, leo. Have you met reality yet? Still fighting cognitive dissonance?

          • Leon Wolfeson

            No surprise you hate workers, farmers, etc.

            As you say I’m you, as you blame me for your fighting anything and everything different to you.

      • congreve

        De Nile is a river near Witney.

      • Jojje 3000

        Well, the EU is just across the channel and are one of this little planets major trading blocks, influential over WTO and UN and a whole lot of other regulatory bodies.

        • wibbling

          The EU is ajust a monolith fascist bureaucracy. It doesn’t exist. The nations of Europe are on the continent.

        • WTF

          A bit like comparing Cuba (EU) and Florida (UK) both very close to each other, both separated by not much water and the EU being an imploding basket case.

          • Jojje 3000

            Yes, and they are mutually dependent.

          • WTF

            Hardly, there’s been a trade embargo with Cuba for decades until just last month although I don’t know the specifics of Obamas visit.

      • WTF

        I assume Junckers breakfast intake was a reference to his drinking habits !

    • davidblameron

      The United States does too, we’ve tolerated that for 70 years.

    • wibbling

      Yes and no. Yes, we might adopt some of it’s rules. No, we will set those rules at a position high above the EU. Then unlike Norway governing us by fax, we will govern the EU.

  • Matt Finucane

    The slippery slope of moving from unanimous voting to majority in the Council is a fallacy. It’s simply ridiculous to suggest that just because more powers have been given to the EU in the past, all powers will inevitably be given in the future, or even that the category of most important powers – those decided by unanimity – will inevitably be eroded. No single member state would sign itself up to a foreign policy directed by majority (hence no “EU army”, either). This will simply never happen.

    • The EU army is on its way and your whole argument hangs on the assumption that the single members government cares more about it’s country than the EU itself, In Great Britain today the government continually puts down its own country in favour of the EU.

      • Matt Finucane

        There comes a point at which arguments become self-discrediting. You, and the healthy portion of the Brexit camp you represent, have long passed that point with this nonsense. There *is* a respectable face of Brexit, staffed by figures like Hannan, but sadly most Brexiteers are too caught up in their own bloody minded indignation to care.

        • The EU army is on its way, Germany’s army is currently merging and ours is being deliberately cut back to the point where it is incapable of acting along, this deliberate vandalism of our armed forces is to ensure we are weak and have no option but to merge with the EU army.

          The EU functions by weakening member states then it simply takes over the functions, you’ll deny this of course but its how things stand.

          Pro EU position is we are to weak to stand alone.

          • Matt Finucane

            So it’s all a grand behind-closed-doors conspiracy? Nobody seriously wants an EU army and every member state has a veto on any such decision (as I tire of re-iterating). Some members want more military co-operation, especially on procurement, meaning we’d get more bang for our lacklustre buck. The Pro-EU position is we are stronger standing together with Europe and the US, ruling the world as we have done since 1945, and that we should be trying to prolong this (nothing lasts forever, remember) rather than tearing it down.

          • Yes just like TITP, go on deny that’s not happening.

            Your saying no one wants an EU army yet its been on the table for years.

            You are also saying we rule the world with the US and with that I conclude that you are a nut job.

          • Mr B J Mann

            Hardly behind closed doors?

            Were Eurocrats sent in to rule Italy and Greece behind closed doors?

            Did any Greeks or Italians seriously want to be ruled by Eurocrats?!

            Did Austria seriously want to not have the government it elected a few years back (never mind the current pronouncements) and to replace the government it elected with one more acceptable to the Eurocrats……….?!

          • antoncheckout

            You clearly don’t read the European press. It’s irrelevant whether the peoples of Europe want an EU army or not – the EU wants one, and it has already been decided. There is – for example – no veto on that area after Lisbon.

          • evad666

            Who exactly is the EU?

          • wibbling

            No, no citizen wants an EU army as they consider the EU a laughable joke.

            The EUrocrats, on the other hand desperately want a military. I only to enforce this nonsense that it is a country but more likely to use on the citizen when it stands against the ruling fascists.

        • wibbling

          There is nothing the man said that is not true.

    • antoncheckout

      But it has done.
      The Treaty of Lisbon overturned the previous voting arrangements introduced in the Nice Treaty, and no fewer than forty-five (45) areas of discussion that had previously needed unanimous voting were made QMV.
      They include the EU budget itself, as well as asylum, criminal law, the ECJ, and the ‘common defence policy’.
      There are now very few areas (such as accession) that need unanimity, and there is nothing to prevent the EU from turning them into QMV. They would not even need a new treaty for that. Just the ‘right kind’ of European Prime Ministers round the table, all ready to sacrifice their morals for a quiet life.

      • WTF

        This might explain the ‘confusion’ between Cameron and Penny Morduant over a veto over Turkey being allowed in.

        For myself, I’m very suspicious of changes like QMV when its unclear exactly what is covered by it. We see exactly the same sorts of ‘stunts’ being pulled by Obama with executive orders which bypass voting in the house. The progressive liberals in charge don’t want true democracy and especially don’t want the people having direct control of policies through directly elected representatives. On both sides of the pond, the left are circumventing democracy and accountability at every turn.

        • wibbling

          Life no. Democracy, getting the people to control the state is utterly opposed to the authoritarian dictatorship that the EU was designed to be. You can’t allow people a say, they will say the ‘wrong’ thing.

          Then you have to have them shot.

    • licjjs

      Well, I was rather taken aback today to read that the EU Navy was saving would be illegal immigrants in the Med. When did the EU acquire a Navy?

  • Pretty_Polly

    Hello,

    My name is David Cameron of Brussels and Panama and my aim is to destroy Britain as you know and love it.

    That is why I have admitted over 750,000 migrants and asylum seekers in the last 12 months alone, why I support Turkeys’s entry into the EU and why I have done virtually nothing to stop illegals entering the country and remaining forever. I will of course repeat these policies this year and every year during my premiership.

    Up and down the country, I am told that my plans are working perfectly as people find they are becoming ‘Strangers Where They Live’ http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/immigration/9831912/I-feel-like-a-stranger-where-I-live.html and I am delighted my Defence Minister, Michael Fallon, has told me that our towns and cities are being enrichingly ‘swamped with immigrants’ http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/oct/26/british-towns-swamped-immigrants-michael-fallon-eu

    As the ‘Heir to Blair’ and Blairmore, I am proud to be continuing the pro immigration policies adopted by my close friends in the Labour Party and to be able to develop such ideas to extinguish ‘Britishness’ wherever it may be found. That is why I have abolished many of the planning rules in order to build huge anonymous new towns and cities in what was the monocultural and unenriched English countryside http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/04/16/plans-for-thousands-of-new-homes-threaten-green-belt-areas/

    I will soon be holding the long awaited confirmation of my views and opinions that Britain should remain an EU member forever and I will personally ensure that the Remain campaign is full of lies, threats and propaganda to obtain the highly desirable Remain outcome, thereby wiping the floor with a blonde haired mop. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boris_Johnson

    As you will understand from the foregoing, I am extremely excited about the forthcoming abolition of Britain and ‘Britishness’ by my friends in the European Union who have assured me that a new name has already been decided for these very small inconsequential islands..

    Consequently, to further the re-writing of British history and the destruction of British traditions, they have chosen ‘EU Sector North West’ which must now be written below your postcode or your mail will no longer be delivered.

    God Save The President of the EU Commission ! Rule Jean Claude Juncker !

    Yours sincerely

    David Cameron

    Governor General EU NW – Designate.

    • mailbiter

      Do you keep a log of how many times you post this? Must be in three figures by now.

      • Pretty_Polly

        Posts which you dislike are usually pretty_good of course..

        • mailbiter

          I don’t dislike it. In fact, I keep reading it in the hope that you have put some humorous bits in there.

          • Pretty_Polly

            Oh well, keep on reading it and enjoy 🙂

    • Leon Wolfeson

      No, your name Pretty_Polly. As you blame the Other for everything, etc.

      As you want to change Britain, to make it so strange and twisted…. as you whine you can’t smash the borders shut on the 99%. As you whine about house building…which has been insufficient since 1980.

      As you blame the EU for Torynomics, and as you tell silly scare stories.

      • wibbling

        As usual, leo waffles on a load of tripe and gets himself all in a tizzwass fighting a battle he lost with himself years ago.

        Britain , outside the EU will revert to be the strong, recognised trading nation it always has been before it was subjugated to the EU.

        • Leon Wolfeson

          I’m not writing your posts. As you say blocking trade is trade, and that the Four Freedoms – which involve trade, and which you oppose…

          • rapscallion

            How are the new meds working out for you Leo?

          • WTF

            Reminds me of the Dirty Harry Enforcer movie when he says “The mouth wash ain’t making it” as Wolfies “meds certainly ain’t making it”

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Stop trying to give me your meds.

            Why do you hate the Freedoms?

          • rapscallion

            I love it when you bite. God, its so easy 🙂

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Does Satan answer you often. And no, I don’t go around biting people, that’s your thing not mine. Trying to give your meds to other people is illegal, and why do you hate freedom?

        • WTF

          I like that line “a battle he lost with himself years ago”, well said !

  • Marvin

    Not too long ago Juncker and his cronies were spouting out garbage about “Little Britain” not mattering one jot whether they stayed or left, and that we were too small a country to go it alone. NOW THOUGH! they are all running around like demented lunatics with their underwear on fire. WHY? because their consequences of Brexit is far more serious then our short term Blip to eternal freedom and prosperity. AND! they know and fear this most of all.

    • Bob H

      It’s because they want the power that will come with the Untied States of Europe and that cannot happen with only Germany paying the bills. As always, it’s about power and money for the “leaders”.

      • Marvin

        That is true, and the disaster is, that they want to rule and dominate poor dependent countries who will always be a mill stone round their finances, but controlling them is more important. Do we want to remain to be one of the large donors enslaved to these buffoons that have sold Europe to Islam?

    • WTF

      Yep it is hilarious seeing through their transparent tricks to try and sway the vote in their favour.

      The UK-EU campaign is a mirror image of the US electioneering with Trump. The establishment lobby who have their snouts in the trough don’t want to see it being taken away any day soon so they try ridicule, insult, then threaten, then pleading and now even portents of WWIII in Europe but no one is listening any more. Those that are firmly in the ‘status quo’ camp will never change and those that want change wont budge either. However, the swing voters are overwhelmingly going against the ‘status quo’ due to the dirty tricks played by them.

      • Marvin

        There is a feeling of ” I have a dream” in the air.

    • rapscallion

      Yeah, funny that isn’t it. We’re the 5th largest economy, members of NATO, G7, G20, hold a permanent seat on the UN Security Council and Head of the Commonwealth. We are also the originators of the world’s most widely spoken language, but somehow we’re too small to go it alone?

      They’re terrified, because if we go, it’s game over for the EU. Countries like Holland and Hungary will be follow suit.

      So, by our example, we have to save Europe from itself – again, for the third time in a century.

      • Marvin

        We must, must vote to leave before they drag us down to view the Titanic. The Eurozone is a basket case with unemployment up to 50/60% with their citizens fleeing to Britain for work and benefits.

        • rapscallion

          You’ll get no argument from me on that one Marvin. Brexit is our lifeboat.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            …From the dangers of Britain, your enemy…

          • Marvin

            YEP! it could be the last lifeboat.

          • rapscallion

            Succinctly put Marvin. It really is our very last chance. If we fail, we shall sink into the dark abyss, shackled to a sinking EU. Should we win, we will survive and make it to land, to stride amongst the broad up lit sun lands.

      • Leon Wolfeson

        No, your personalities are not. Your enemy, Britain, is. And you’re against all of those, right.

        You’re terrified of every single other country we have a trade treaty with… as you think your Russia will nuke the EU or whatever. You’ll “save” the EU from democracy…oh wait, you lost the last two times.

  • KilowattTyler

    If you support the EU you are both a patriot and you believe in sovereignty – but the ‘country’ in this case is the EU not Britain. You believe in a ‘European identity’, you believe that ‘Europe’ has to defend itself against other countries (e.g. Russia), that it has to have ‘global reach’ (i.e. the ability to meddle in other regions of the world), that it has to have ‘trade agreements’ with other powerful blocks and that it needs a common foreign policy.

    • Bob H

      How can anyone who supports the destruction of our sovereignty be a patriot, they are a traitor to the UK and our long history and to those that fought in two world wars.. Mark my words if we stay in the EU and it becomes what the politicians want and are aiming towards, the United States of Europe, there will be war and by then it will be a civil war, the worst sort.

      • KilowattTyler

        Note the bit after the dash in my first sentence above.

        To clarify: Enthusiastic EU supporters, far from being free of the things they claim to despise – nationalism/jingoism, fear of enemies instead of internationalism, meddling in the affairs of other peoples, etc., etc. – actually have all these traits in abundance. It’s just that they focus these things on a (fictitious?) country called “Europe’, rather than Britain (or France, or Germany, or any other component of the EU).

        You do not need to spend a lot of time reading the Guardian or other strongly pro-EU journals to come across articles claiming that there is really only one people in ‘Europe’ or that ‘Europe’ has one unified culture. This is ‘European’ (i.e. EU) jingoism (and of course, complete nonsense).

        I believe George Orwell, in one of his essays, highlighted how 1930s Left intellectuals despised Britain whilst transferring their allegiance to the USSR. He also wrote that for these Leftists, support for the USSR provided all the things they claimed to loathe – patriotism, a ‘them and us’ mentality, etc. Substitute ‘EU’ for ‘USSR’ in Orwell’s essay and you would have a perfect description of modern “intellectuals” (quote marks deliberate) and their transfer of patriotic allegiance.

      • big

        Thatcher sold out,do you think she was a traitor?

    • wibbling

      The EU is not a nation. It is an unelected, unaccountable fascist dictatorship.

      • KilowattTyler

        I don’t disagree – I’m writing about the people who think the EU is a ‘nation’, or a homogenous, unified culture.

      • big

        how is it unaccountable? are you saying Britain has no say in forming the rules,laws,etc? are you saying we just sit in Brussels and do nothing to influence laws rules?

  • Prof Raus

    Purdah has begun and we can now look forward to Dave orchestrating business and the likes of the IMF to continue his fear campaign. Andrew Sentence kicks off today with a warning that the car industry will be destroyed. Sentence, ex B of E and now working for PWC has obviously not heard that car makers are still investing – but why let truth get in the way.

    • wibbling

      Because a lie travels around the world thrice before the truth gets out of bed.

      The remain chained camp are utterly reliant on lies. If they told the truth – that likely very little would change short term – they would be lost.

  • evad666
    • Autolocus

      He tried to in the Lisbon Treaty negotiations when he proposed that any critisism of the “Ever closer” philosphy should be made a criminal offence throughout the EU. He failed then but he will be back – rest assured.

      • Leon Wolfeson

        You will?

    • Leon Wolfeson

      Why would he use your tactics?

  • Mr Marlboro

    The EU will make us into managers within our own region, reporting to the Directors in Brussels.

    Thats whats going to happen should we vote to remain in the EU.

    Everything we wish to do, will have to be run past several layers of management bureaucracy.

    Like in any big organisation, we will be micro-managed into compliance.
    And the UK bureaucratic army has absolute form in their observance of and adherence to every ruling they send our way.

    Can’t people see this?

    • ItwasBlairwotdunnit

      Don’t fret. Scots have had this relationship with Westminster for 300 years and has it harmed them?

      • wibbling

        Scotland is a poor country hanging off a rich neighbour. It has tremendous autonomy. The EU, in contrast is dictatorial and destructive.

        Scotland will be ‘independent’ when it can pay it’s own bills.

  • davidblameron

    If Britain votes to stay in the EU on June 23, by 2020, it will become a hate-crime to criticize the EU or Britain’s membership of it.
    That will secure our membership until Kingdom come ; that’s why I implore all true Britons on June 23 to vote LEAVE

    • Leon Wolfeson

      Really, how will you pas that law?
      As you decry so many British people…what’s up for “untrue” Brits under your plans? Exile? Suppression? Labour Camps?

      • eu_leave

        I won’t, I want to LEAVE the EU but if Britain stays in, Cameron will force it through Parliament and it’ll be enforced the same way that race-hate laws are now.

        • Leon Wolfeson

          That’s a conspiracy theory.

          As you complain you can’t bully and discriminate freely.

  • Marathon-Youth

    Couple of issues in a long list of them.
    EU plans to build a military. Isn’t that redundant? and who is the “enemy” to create a military?

    It is redundant for there is NATO led by the US and the member nations each have their own military. That means the cost of having yet another military will be a boon to the EU banks (all 29 of them) who will give the loans needed to buy the weapons. Such a military will add to the cost of each of the 28 member nations and for what?

    There must be a valid reason to create a military. Russia cannot be taken by this military nor America. That leaves European uprisings that could be the “enemy”. But then each member nation has her own police, national guard and military to deal with that.

    Second issue is that all the EU banks (Outside of the EU central bank) are controlled by the Rothschild family. They also control many of the 10 banks that make up the 12 branches of the Federal Reserve. If a military is formed this family will have a great deal to say about it, especially since the banks they control or own will be the institutes that give the loans to this military to buy the needed weapons.

    Have to add this. As in most cases regarding the European Union the populations of the member nations have little if anything to say about the decisions formulated in Brussels.

    • Brazen

      The EU army would be used internally to bring to heel those countries that won’t toe the line, and that’s why there’s a bigger risk of another war such as the recent one in the Balkans.

  • grumpyoldrockape

    I have just watched ‘Brexit – The Movie’ on youtube.

    If there are any of you who are undecided about which way to vote on May 23rd then I would urge you to watch this very informative film.

    • wibbling

      I cannot consider how anyone could be undecided. We must leave the EU.

  • mikewaller

    It would seem that Oxford academics also need to be told: “It’s the economy, Stupid!”

    The most instructive film material regarding Brexit is that of the four year old child being jerked around by the gorilla immediately prior to the latter being shot! We, of course, would be the child, China the gorilla – and nobody’s going to shoot China any time soon.

    Indeed the whole Brexit campaign is based on the false premise that it is incoming EU workers who are wrecking the futures of ordinary folk in this country. Our real problems are twofold. First, we have been relatively uncompetitive for well over 100 years. That was bad enough when competition was largely restricted to other people with white skins and the Japanese, but the advent of full-blown globalisation plus crassly irresponsible technology transfers on a massive scale, have made things far, far worse. That is why a vast range of things which in my childhood ad “Made in England” or “Made in the UK” printed on them are now imported goods. Second, even if the Brexiters could bring about the magical transformation in our productivity that has eluded all post 1870 UK governments, we would still be at a huge economic disadvantage simply because we are simply not big enough to negotiate on equal terms with the USA, China and the EU. And that is why EU trade deals take so long to negotiate. The EU has the scale and numbers to secure a fair deal – little guys have to take what they are granted. And forget the”fifth biggest” [most certainly, not richest] crap. In global terms, we are a mere middleweight!

    • outlawState

      The reason that China can exert deleterious influence is because Britain has no power within the EU to take remedial action over anti-dumping etc – if Britain even had a will, but the current pro-EU leaders do not even have a will, such is their contempt for the average British worker.

      Uncompetitiveness is largely a consequence of high taxation and high property prices and the need to finance the multi-billion euro EU gravy train, as well as a nation of welfare addicts sheltering under absurd human rights laws. The more money spent on property, the less there is to create economic growth. The EU in encouraging open-door immigration is actively promoting British uncompetitiveness by tying the nation’s wealth up in unproductive property and creating massively inflated levels of debt. Thus household debt has soared by two-fifths in just six months to Jan 2016, combined with reductions in income and savings.

    • wibbling

      It’s far simpler – they’re cheaper because of high taxes and excessive regulation. The 5th largest economy is not a ‘middle weight’. The EU keeps us poor through it’s intention of creating a command, state controlled economy.

      The UK makes a great many things. More than you’d realise. it does so in combination with international partners.

      The EU holds us back with that regulation and legislation it so needs to sustain itself.

      It’s simple: we must leave the EU.

    • Tom M

      So if I understand you correctly we are a failing state that can only survive economically if we keep paying Brussels £350 million a week for the privilege of being in their club. Bearing in mind that of the 28 club members 24 of them are net financial recipients it makes you wonder just what sort of club we are in when we, a net contributer are in such a parlous state.

  • MrUnclevanya

    I owe NO allegeince to that peice of political crap, that political contruct called the European Union. A bunch Euro-Marxist blockheads who live the high life with their beaks in the EU tax payers cash trough. Damn and b*gger them all!!

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