Politics

Don’t rule out Referendum Two: the Tory ‘Leave’ genie’s out of the bottle

21 May 2016

9:00 AM

21 May 2016

9:00 AM

As the Queen read out her government’s agenda on Wednesday morning, David Cameron could have been forgiven for thinking about his place in history. What will he be remembered for, other than having held the office? The so-called ‘life chances’ strategy is intended to be a central plank of his legacy. He wants to be able to say that he made Britain more ‘socially just’. Indeed, this is his principal reason for wanting to stay in No. 10 for a few more years.

Cameron loyalists hope he’ll be remembered as the leader who made the Tories the natural party of government again. The man who moved them on from Thatcherism to a modern version of one-nation politics; who confronted the deficit in a fair (if leisurely) manner. Who secured the future of the United Kingdom and who settled for the country — and the Tory party — the question of Britain’s place in the EU.

Will his premiership be spoiled by Europe, as Tony Blair’s was by Iraq? There is increasing confidence at the top of the government that he can move on. That the result will be more decisive than the polls indicate, and that their much-derided campaign will be vindicated. They calculate that three in four Tory MPs just want to stop talking about Europe, so it will be easier than expected to put the party back together after the referendum. There are some Tory MPs who want Cameron gone as soon as, but not enough to cause serious trouble.

It is not just the general election that is giving Cameron’s circle confidence, but also the Scottish parliamentary election results. The SNP losing its Holyrood majority, they say, is proof that referendums can be more decisive than they at first appear. For all the SNP’s gains since the independence vote, there is now no chance of a second referendum in the medium term. The nationalist tide is now on the ebb.

Downing Street calculates that it is at least ten years before another EU treaty will be required. This will leave time for passions to cool and Britain’s new arrangements to bed in before a ‘referendum lock’ is triggered on any transfer of powers to Brussels.

But this confidence might be misplaced. The ‘Leave’ genie is now out of the bottle and will be impossible to put back in. Before this referendum, wanting to leave the EU was a relatively unusual position. Most leading Eurosceptics argued for radical reform, rather than departure. Those who wanted out tended to keep it a secret. No one in the Cabinet admitted wanting to leave the EU. But that has all changed now. More than 130 Tory MPs have publicly declared for Brexit, including several members of the cabinet. One of these Outers will probably be the next leader of the party — and, ergo, Prime Minister. It is no longer a fringe position, but a mainstream one shared by between a third to a half of the country. So the MPs who have declared for Out will not recant if they lose the referendum. Even if they accept the result, everyone will know what they actually think.

Another reason that the issue won’t go away is that the European Union will keep forcing itself on to the agenda. After all, Cameron became Tory leader promising to stop the party from ‘banging on about Europe’ but now finds his premiership defined by the issue. The problem for whoever governs Britain is that, to adapt Trotsky, you may not be interested in the EU, but the EU is interested in you. Or, more specifically, in the powers that you have.

This referendum is taking place at the wrong time. The crucial issue in the EU right now is how the eurozone resolves its structural problems. How to make a one-size currency fit all its members? The answer has profound implication for the United Kingdom. If the eurozone continues to muddle along with a series of temporary fixes it will have an ever-declining share of the world economy but our overall position within the EU will not change much.

However, if the eurozone decides to pursue further integration it will have far-reaching consequences for Britain. And if it votes as a bloc, the UK could be regularly defeated. Our ability to influence both individual decisions and the overall direction of the EU would be greatly reduced. The provisions in the renegotiation that are supposed to stop this from happening are far from watertight, as the deputy governor of the Bank of England John Cunliffe admitted in a recent letter to the Treasury Select Committee. If the eurozone were to start using its voting weight to regularly override British objections, then it is easy to see how demands for a second referendum would grow.

Another issue that could push the issue of a second referendum up the agenda is a sense that the promises made by the Remain campaign during this referendum have not been kept. Then comes the European Court of Justice and its judicial activism. One minister who is passionately in favour of us staying in the EU admits in private that the court may overreach itself so much that Britain ends up having no choice but to quit its jurisdiction. It is worth remembering that it was the overbearing nature of the ECJ and its interpretation of the Charter of Fundamental Rights which most motivated Boris Johnson to come out for Leave.

Of course, we have not yet had this vote. There are five weeks to go and the campaign is close enough that events could still swing it for leave. But some on the Out side of the debate have long had a two-referendum strategy. Their view was that they simply had too much ground to make up in one campaign, but a reasonable result — combined with the direction in which the EU is heading — would allow them to win a second vote in the not-too-distant future.

What is for certain is that the evolving nature of the EU means that there is no guarantee that this referendum will be definitive. And if there is another referendum, a future Tory government is likely to be on the Out side of the argument.


Show comments
  • Richard Lutz

    Might it be the case that the British feel isolated as a result of the failure of their empire so wish to be subsumed by another empire? It would be better for the UK to become a province of China or a state of the US than part of the EU from an economic perspective, but it seems that the British hate the Americans and Chinese even more than the Europeans.

    • polidorisghost

      “but it seems that the British hate the Americans and Chinese even more than the Europeans.”

      Ah! But not as much as they hate us.

    • richard1949

      I seriously doubt that, we would have made that association years ago. Sadly we abandonded the Commonwealth in exchange for EU membership, we would have been much better off, developing commonwealth trade ties and expanding EFTA

    • Little Black Censored

      No.

    • Ned Costello

      In what way did the Empire “fail”? It ended, that is true,(and remarkably peacefully on the whole) but how do you define failure in terms of an Empire? Was the Roman Empire a failure? The Spanish, French, Ottoman (you might have a point there admittedly). THe British Empire “ended” or more accurately “wound down” in the immediate after math of WW2, having played a major part in the defeat of both Nazism and Japanese expansionism. I don’t call that a failure.

      • Johnnydub

        Exactly… The end of the British Empire was an incredibly noble act. We ended it in order to end Nazism. BUt the left will never acknowledge this – they cant stop their knees jerking.

    • sandy winder

      Why should we hate Americans, Chinese or Europeans? Surely all we want is to trade with these countries (and many more) on a basis that is best for our own country rather than 28 others?

  • Foxall

    Even if Remain wins the day events in the EU will soon wipe the smirk off Cameron’s face. They’d like us to think the EU’s trajectory is a stable straight line to sunny uplands of peace, happiness and prosperity. But Greece’s debts fall due soon and they have no way to pay them. Expect huge civil unrest. Then there’s the Turkey and illegal immigrants fiasco. Then we look at the influx of a peoples who despise and actively seek to undermine western values. Belgium and France with non-cohesive security forces. Discontent in Catalonia, the rise of right wing factions. Against all this, the various EU diktats that are on hold until after the refendum are mere flea bites.
    This is not going to turn out well.

    • CockneyblokefromReading

      I agree with that, but if the people of this country are too thick to see what is going on then I will have lost patience with my fellow countrymen and women. I have people asking me to explain about the EU! They shouldn’t need educating. Just stop watching X Factor and wise up to what’s going on. If, after June 23rd, we’re still in the absurd mess that is the EU, then I doubt I’ll ever vote again. What would be the point? We’ll get what we deserve, and if that’s still in the EU then the people who appear to be as thick as David Lammy are welcome to their future.

      • Mark

        Just get those who need to have an explanation of the EU to watch Brexit: The Movie. I thought I knew quite a lot but watching it made me bloody mad!!

    • Johnnydub

      The German banks are poked.. Greece is done for, and France is a basket case; Italy is on its last legs as well.

      We’re just watching the longest death throes in history.

  • Lothlórien

    “And if it votes as a bloc, the UK could be regularly defeated”

    If the UK remains in the EU it will be utterly defeated as it will become a vassal state (probably of Germany).

    • veryveryoldfella

      What would be new, we are already.

    • Paul_Butler

      If the UK is regularly voting against the rest of the EU, doesn’t that suggest there is something amiss with the UK position?

      • CockneyblokefromReading

        Yes. If we vote to stay in, then we should go along with everything the EU throws up…everything. I mean that. The people would have voted to stay in, and they should get what the deserve and want…EU compliance. There would be no point in voting against anything anyway, what with majority rule. I’m an Outer, but I’m getting sick of stupid people wanting to stay in. The Leave camp should have been way in front by now – it doesn’t look good. So, if we are in, let’s give the people what they voted for; an EU superstate, EU army, Britain adopting the Euro. Let’s give the suckers everything they voted for.

        • Paul_Butler

          No, we don’t go along with everything the EU throws up, because “the EU” is itself a collection of disparate states, not a homogeneous bloc. If they are all agreed, then the proposal would already have been discussed between all member states – including UK – and all member states individual concerns would have been taken into account. I can’t think of any circumstances where the UK would reasonably go against an agreed consensus of all the other member states.

          • Johnnydub

            Stating the bleeding obvious but – The Euro?

          • Paul_Butler

            Not all EU countries are in the Euro.

            In the unlikely event that all the EU countries except the UK joined the Euro, then we should join the Euro.

          • Johnnydub

            No but its a condition of joining, that at some point you will adopt the Euro.

            And if we vote to remain, I guarantee you the pressure will be applied to us… and corrupt morons like Mandelson and Heseltine along with the BBC will support it.

          • Paul_Butler

            All I can say to that, is that I’ve been in several countries where they have the Euro, and life there seems very similar to what it is here. In fact, I slightly prefer the continental culture and style, although I appreciate that doesn’t hold for everybody from the UK.

          • Johnnydub

            OK. Well now you’ve convinced me. All that stuff about economic convergence within an optimal currency zone – waste of time. As long as we feel fluffy about it.

          • goodsoldier

            He feels very oily. That’s his type.

          • Paul_Butler

            I have to say, many exiteers here claim to be very confident about this referendum with all their friends apparently supporting Exit. But when it comes to the actual arguments all you can come up with is homophobic insult. And then the big players – Boris Johnson for example – have to resort to spurious comparisons with Hitler and Napoleon.

            It suggests you guys are all mouth and no trousers

          • Johnnydub

            Ad hominem tastic.

            I think the vote is too close to call. We’ll see.

            As for Boris, he is pointing out the obvious… that over the last 200 years every time someone has tried to build a pan-European empire, its fallen to the British to stop it. Now the EU is trying it by politics not arms, and thus the answer is to vote out, not invade Germany.

            Its the paucity of your arguments that force you to respond with such flinging of monkey doodoo. If you can’t respond with a reasoned argument, then please sod off.

          • Paul_Butler

            There’s nothing wrong in principle with a European state – it would be about the same size as the US and much smaller than India.

            The problem with Hitler and Napoleon was precisley that they attempted to rule Europe by force of arms and did not adopt a political approach.

            No state boundaries are sacrosanct. If UK leaves Europe it will probably lose Scotland.

          • goodsoldier

            Your last line tells me you are the homophobe.

          • Conway

            I’m off to France shortly to stay with some French friends. They don’t like the euro one bit. My Dutch friends aren’t keen either and my Swedish friends don’t want to join.

          • Conway

            I’m glad you realise that. Are you aware that all states except us and Denmark are treaty bound to join the euro and new states will be likewise obligated. There will be no opt out, no matter what Dave says. Just think about the logic.

          • goodsoldier

            I know you want to, Mandy.

          • Conway

            That shows a very naive view of the workings of the EU, if I may say so. The individual concerns of member states are only taken into account insofar as they further the project. The fact that the EU is a collection of disparate countries is why the euro does not, and never can, work.

        • Conway

          I don’t know how many people who want to stay in you’ve met in your daily life, but where I live, they are thin on the ground. Don’t believe the polls, they are there to make you think the LEAVE argument isn’t gaining traction and feel it’s not worth carrying on.

        • goodsoldier

          Keira Knightly and Cumberbach are voting IN. Doesn’t that change your mind? ha ha Just kidding–don’t blow your stack.

      • Johnnydub

        Yes. We don’t want a smothering socialist political unified block. Its the flaw in the remainers argument.

        Even they don’t want what is actually on offer – the Euro, Political and Fiscal Union, etc.

        • Paul_Butler

          It has nothing to do with whether it is “socialist” or not. The states in the EU have very differemnt outlooks, and even those of different states change from time to time.

          Compromise may be boring, but it is essential to political stability.

          • Johnnydub

            Way to go -you completely ignored my point:

            Even the remainers don’t want what is actually on offer – the Euro, Political and Fiscal Union, etc.

          • Paul_Butler

            Some of them do, some of them don’t

          • Johnnydub

            I guarantee you the polls with be 90-10 against if the proposition was remain and for the Euro and PE. Yet that is in reality what Remain means. Its as if they never listen to world the Euro politicians actually say.

          • Paul_Butler

            You guarantee it, do you?

            You do understand that doesn’t really constitute an evidence-based argument?

          • Johnnydub

            “All I can say to that, is that I’ve been in several countries where they have the Euro, and life there seems very similar to what it is here. In fact, I slightly prefer the continental culture and style, although I appreciate that doesn’t hold for everybody from the UK.”

            Your previous reply. Fully evidence based. So up yours snowflake.

          • Paul_Butler

            Errr, no, that’s my opinion, based on my experience, and I don’t pretend otherwise. I’m not “guaranteeing” anything, nor quoting the first numbers that pop into my head as if they were remotely close to the true state of public opinion.

            One thing I’m sure we can both agree on is that any stats produced by either party in this argument about what might happen if the UK leaves or stay in the EU can be taken with a pinch of salt.

          • goodsoldier

            Err, no, toyboy.

          • Conway

            Read the Five Presidents’ Report. That is an evidence based argument from the EU itself.

          • goodsoldier

            You’re arguments are all faddish.

          • goodsoldier

            The EU is deadly boring and deadly.

        • Brian Jones

          Despite what the polls are saying I’ve met very few people outside the forum pages of the MSM who are for remain. I’m not talking about the personalities that the media appeared to be obsessed with but with the real man in the street.

      • Conway

        Yes, de Gaulle was right and we should never have joined. We are not continentals. We have a different history, culture, mindset and legal system. Time to put that right and LEAVE.

        • Paul_Butler

          Speak for yourself.

          • goodsoldier

            Don’t worry Mandy, Alistair Campbell is speaking for you. That is, when he is not strapped down.

  • MashDownBabylon

    The Cameroid faction in the Conservative party will soon be flushed down the toilet of history.

  • veryveryoldfella

    If the polls are anywhere near correct, half the country want out of the EU, and most of them if Conservative voters despise Cameron and his cronies for what they see as his betrayal of the country. It goes without saying, Cameron cannot heal the party rift and must be replaced as soon as possible.

    • Conway

      Cameron is totally out of touch with his grass roots party members. That is the opinion of one of those grass roots members who is working with me to get the message out that we need to LEAVE.

      • Wolseley

        I think selection meetings are going to be very interesting, especially for those MP’s who convinced their local Conservative associations that they were solid Eurosceptics and then backed Remain to further their own careers.

        For example Sajid Javid worked for years at Deutsche Bank, so know that the Euro etc is a busted flush. He clearly does not believe in the arguments for Remain……..and yet, he is ambitious, so has conveniently switched to Remain. If I were Chairman of his local association, I would deselect him at the earliest opportunity.

  • A World of Paine

    Whichever way the referendum vote goes, it is clear that a very large part of the electorate is decidedly eurosceptic. I do hope that this leads to the Conservative party waking up to the fact that this is a demographic that is worth nurturing and supporting. This realization naturally leads to the inevitable downfall of Cameron – it only takes 50 MPs to get rid of him, and once the referendum is out of the way he will be a lame duck. It is clear who will replace him.

  • Barakzai

    ” . . . moved them on from Thatcherism to a modern version of one-nation politics;”

    For goodness sake, call it what it is, Blairism redux.

    • Johnnydub

      Exactly. And not winning a majority against Brown, and scraping one against Milliband, is not exactly an all power all conquering display of politicking.

      Boris (and I’m not particularly a fan) would wipe the floor with him votes-wise.

  • ted

    blair set us on a path to inevitable scottish independence, cameron has set us on a path to inevitable BREXIT

    • BigAl

      Its called democracy..

      • Old men plant trees

        If the EU allowed elected members to suggest and determine its direction of travel it would be representative but rights are restricted to voting on laws framed by an unelected super class pursuing its own agenda. Ergo, Scotland sought Parish status within a dictatorship whilst Britain seeks self determination. However the issue of governance is to be settled by short term financial considerations and that is called democracy.

  • Albert Zbingswiki

    Half the country want out.
    That’s basically all the indigenous Brits.
    The Remainers being the Superior Peaceful Headchoppers who know that the Eurokaliphate will be hastened by UK staying in the EU and continuing to be swamped with their ilk, Polish plumbers, and the 17 remaining white Labour voters. Oh, and a handful of eco-loon Greens.

  • Holly

    ‘Cameron loyalists’ can think whatever they like.
    I have just seen a pretty graph showing that the number of people, when asked, see politicians as being out for themselves, was 48%.

    Those asked, see the politicians as out for their party, was 30%

    Of those asked who see the politicians as out for their country was just 10%.
    12% had no idea what the heck they think….

    Not really a ringing endorsement of the Conservative ‘natural party of government’, or the Labour alternative ‘natural party of government’.

    With just 10% thinking politicians are ‘out for their country’…remain bods should romp it… yeah.

  • proudsurfer

    ” Most leading Eurosceptics argued for radical reform, rather than departure”.
    Agreed but regrettably Cameron’s attempt to renegotiate failed abysmally, and it is clear now to many that further attempts to further our sovereignty is no longer possible. Unless we accept the status quo our Prime Minister has left us with no other options but to make our own way into ( fortunately ) an ever expanding world, A world I am sure we have the confidence, the ability and the expertise to attain.

  • Romulus

    A lot of confusion here between EU and Eurozone(EZ), they are very different. This referendum is about remaining in the EU.
    The Greek debt crisis has shown that its the Individual Nations with a shareholding in the EZ that have the power , nothing to do with the “EU”, they were just a broker.
    Likewise the UK would like to be a major stakeholder in the EZ, but without being a shareholder, hence the veto in Cameron’s “re-negotiation terms”
    I think the EZ countries have learned a lot and the next EZ treaty will be a “Frankfurt” treaty , no connection with Brussels /EU, thereby bypassing Cameron’s veto.

    • UnhygienixTheFishmonger

      But bypassing the EU also which is problematic as it would mean no use of the EU bureaucracy etc.

  • Romulus

    Within the rest of the EU its only a few hundred politicians who care about the UK referendum, the other 480m couldnt care less and many of these perceive the UK as the “Economic blackmailer.”

    • Conway

      I suspect it’s truer to say that they perceive the UK as a cash cow.

  • Otto von Bismarck

    Cameron thinks he has a legacy? Hilarious. The man entered politics to obtain office, nothing more. He had no vision for the country other than him leading it. He’s ideologically flexible and the key reforms in education and welfare have been driven through by his ministers not by him. The only idea he ever had, the so-called ‘Big Society’, was awful.

    Peter Hitchens is entirely correct when he describes the Tory party solely as a vehicle for the sons of gentlemen to obtain high office.

    • Romulus

      correct…Cameron is what is commonly know as a “political lightweight” which was obvious to all the heads of state of the EU countries on his “tour”
      his performance (or lack) of has done more harm than good to the remain campaign.

      • Otto von Bismarck

        If I had my way we’d have Open Primaries in this country to root out political careerists before they entered Parliament. I’d also institute age limits on MPs like in the US. 35 and above seems fair, and for peers it should be 45.
        Too many MPs have next to nil experience outside of politics.

        • rhys

          Absolutely.
          When I went for the Assessment Day to be approved or not for entry onto the Approved List of Cons. Party candidates ten years ago it all presented as a total farce in which it was made unsubtly clear that the 20 something MPs’ bag carriers and such were much preferred to someone like myself in his ( sic ) fifties.
          After a whole load of pressing for the promised feedback on why exactly I had been rejected I was advised that I ‘ did well on all the tests ……..but……lacked the soft skills necessary to be an MP ‘.
          So the facts that I had made it to Oxford from a council estate; that I spoke four languages fluently; had worked as a Justices’ Clerk in England, and as a Stipendiary Magistrate in the Caribbean; and had worked for several years at a senior level in Africa for the United Nations – all of this ( if the assessors even understood any of it ) counted as nothing compared to my alleged lack of possession of undefined and unexplained ‘soft skills’. So I was not even permitted to put myself forward to constituency parties in competition with the 20 somethings who perhaps hadn’t lived long enough to provide evidence of possessing or not these undefined ‘soft skills’.
          ( The election following my local party selected a nineteen year old student. )

          • Billo Qasira

            Shameful. A council estate lad who made it to Oxford and accomplished so much is exactly whom the Tories should be selecting as candidates.

          • Conway

            Good heavens! Far too well qualified for the Tories! (and I’m a former Conservative)

          • Aberrant_Apostrophe

            How did the student do?

    • Bark Kantatas

      Rubbish that he didn’t do: The Big Society

      Good stuff that he didn’t do: Bonfire of the Quangos

      Rubbish that he did do: Gay marriage, wind farm spivvery, overseas aid

      Good stuff that he did do: Er, er, …

      The game’s up, Dave. Time to Foxtrot Oscar.

  • quotes

    “Before this referendum, wanting to leave the EU was a relatively unusual position”

    Totally untrue. If it were true, there wouldn’t be a referendum.

    • Romulus

      A referendum to leave the EU is highly unusual, The UK referendum will be the first one.
      A referendum to leave the EEC, predecessor of the EU, was also highly unusual, only one Nation State held a referendum………………. you know who….

      • goodsoldier

        We should move on to the Swiss way–direct democracy. With these career politicians like Yvette Copper and David Cameron and many more, what is the point of letting them represent us? They are beneath us in every way.

  • Billo Qasira

    Even if Remain wins, Britain shall not be a part of the EU in 15 years from now.
    Furthermore, a wise Eurosceptic Tory government would use the outrage over TTIP to make the case for leaving in future, with the leaders of every party (except Cameron) openly signing a memorandum organised by the union UNITE demanding to oppose it.
    When the treaty changes come, if the Tories play their cards right, in 10 years from now they should be in government. Spend ten years cultivating Euroscepticism not just within the population but in other parties too focusing on TTIP type issues. Pass a law making a statutory requirement that any treaty change must have referendum approval. In 2025 (or whenever) the next treaty change happens, the govt can campaign on the basis of leaving, and voila, we are gone. In the meantime, the migration crisis may worsen, other issues will come into play. I think Leave will lose this referendum. But I expect Britain to leave the EU within 15 years.

  • Billo Qasira

    As soon as anyone believes they are ‘the natural party of government’ they are doomed. They take things for granted, they become arrogant. Tony Blair said he had transformed Labour into the natural party of government and look at them now.

  • Michael H Kenyon

    Cameron is a revolting opportunist who will leave with a lower reputation than Blair, and it will only decline further. It does not reflect well on the party that he was selected as leader, not that they have had a decent leader since The Lady. I have no confidence in Cameron’s ability to make decisions to benefit the country, though he is shrewd regarding his own needs and how to meet them.

    • Rajpdxusa

      Thanks.

      I never knew Harold Macmillan’s nickname was “The Lady”

      You learn something every day!

      Cheers.

      • John

        Supermac used to wear women’s under garments.

  • Anglian Reed

    “Before this referendum, wanting to leave the EU was a relatively unusual position.”

    Perhaps in Westminster, but not among the electorate, as you point out.

    “Most leading Eurosceptics argued for radical reform, rather than departure.”

    We’ve seen how that went. Most of us in the Leave camp knew the EU to be an unaccountable, unyielding behemoth of a bureaucracy, and predicted that the ‘renegotiation’ would be nothing more than mere theatre.

    “Those who wanted out tended to keep it a secret. No one in the Cabinet admitted wanting to leave the EU. But that has all changed now.

    Evidence, if any more were needed, that there are many disingenuous politicians, who eventually fall in line with public opinion (or that of the majority of their party’s supporters), then claim to have ‘won the public over by leading the debate’.

  • Mr Starter

    If the Remain side win the UK will be in a position comparable to 1939 but with a majority unwilling to defend their country.

    • Johnnydub

      It is similar to 1939, except if we had let millions of Germans into the country and gave them more rights that the locals.

    • John

      Just stick to Hitler metaphors.

      • Mr Starter

        My comment is aimed at the changed attitude of a proportion of the British people.There was a time when most people would put their lives at risk for their country.Now,it seems Jack would not be on his own willing to sell his cow for a handful of beans.(Find a reference to Nazis in this if you can.)

        • Alex

          That’s because we know our own government is no better, and in fact worse really, than the European one. People are right to have no loyalty to a state which will not provide for them.

          • goodsoldier

            So they put their hopes in the EU? It’s much worse. Everybody there is like Cameron and Yvette Cooper. Aaargh

    • mailbiter

      In a time of war, it is pretty easy to identify what course of action best serves the interests of the country.

      In this situation, opinion is divided about what serves the best interests of the country.

      So not the same at all, really.

    • Central power

      Poles defended this country once before. I am not so sure about Somalis , Libyans, Syrians and the likes.

  • Bert

    And you think The EU does not have a two referendum strategy ready, just in case?

    • mailbiter

      Will Farridge support that, if the result is close?

  • Dominic Stockford

    This is a battle for the soul of Britain, either we claim it back now or hand it to the EU for ever.

    • mailbiter

      Why “forever”?

      • Mongo

        because Scamerons ‘reforms’ [sic] are bullsh!t

        • mailbiter

          But why does that mean “forever”?

          • Conway

            Unless the EU implodes (which I fully expect it to, although they will spare no expense of other people’s money to keep it going at all costs as long as they possibly can), we will have had our chance and blown it. Only if we vote LEAVE will we get another chance – to vote the “right” way this time. I hope in that case the majority to LEAVE is even bigger.

          • mailbiter

            In other words, we can have a referendum and decide any time we like. Not “forever”, then,

    • JoeCro

      Accepting the finality of an ‘in’ vote is an important step, I hope BoJo, Farage and their fellow outers except the will of the people when the vote is to remain.

      • tenbelly

        BoJo and Farage will be sleeping with the fishes and the fight will still go on.

      • Dominic Stockford

        How do you know that it will be an ‘in’ vote, we haven’t even been to the polls yet?

      • goodsoldier

        We will never ever accept being a slave to the EU. If we Remain, soon a majority will learn what it is really about and regret deeply how stupid and shallow they were to vote IN. There will be war before decent people accept the diktats of the EU that are to come.

  • JoeCro

    In the event of a remain vote which currently appears highly likely, I would hope the Brexit crowd respect the result and a further divisive and disruptive vote is ruled out for at least 30 years.

    • mailbiter

      Farridge has already made it clear that he will not give up. Boris too, now. In other words, they will not respect the will of the people.

    • Foxall

      The dramas playing out on mainland Europe right now are all wholly due to the incompetence of the EU high ups. On current performance I very much doubt whether there will be a EU in 30 years time. But if there is, it will have evolved into something neither you nor I will like very much. We will both be climbing the walls to be released

      • JoeCro

        The current migration crisis and sabre rattling by Russia demonstrate the need for further integration not less.

        • Conway

          The current migration crisis was exacerbated by Merkel and the sabre rattling by Russia was as a response to EU meddling in Ukraine. The whole thing needs to be broken down and remade as what it was originally touted to be, a trade arrangement, before WW3 does break out (and that won’t be because we leave).

          • JoeCro

            Reform from the inside. The UK will be diminished outside the club.

    • diqi

      Why? if we follow EU convention then any referendum that has the wrong result must be ignored and repeated until the correct answer is given.

    • goodsoldier

      The polls are propaganda methods, best ignored.

  • mailbiter

    I do think we need clarification from Farridge on this one. If the vote is, say, 55/45 in favour of leave, will he support another referendum on the grounds that the result is ‘too close’.

    • Foxall

      In the event of a Leave vote winning I have a strong conviction Cameron will tell us it’s the wrong time, the world is too dangerous. And the EU tell us to bite again (Remember Ireland).

      • mailbiter

        Maybe. But that’s not an answer to the question I asked.

      • goodsoldier

        It won’t work this time around. There will be violence on the streets in the U.K. and all over Europe because there are millions of people hoping we are leading the way out of the EU. Violence and sabotage.

    • Mongo

      the campaign hasn’t been impartial thanks to the government’s relentless and shameless interference on behalf of Remain

      • mailbiter

        Like the poster below, that has nothing to do with the question I asked.

      • JoeCro

        Government policy is to remain part of Europe.

        • Conway

          None of your assertion is correct; Cameron and Osborne’s policy is to remain part of the EU. There are members of the government who do not agree with staying in this undemocratic institution, but nobody wants to leave the continent.

          • JoeCro

            The EU represents Europe.

  • Central power

    The Mail today: 2 000 000 EU migrants working in the UK.
    Poor Mail – the key word is WORKING.
    Why The Mail doe snot mention the following:The rate of unemployment was 46% for young Pakistani and Bangladeshi workers and 45% for young black people?
    The migration to the UK from the Third World is twice that of the EU.
    Please note as the EU population is basically static there simply can not be any further significant increase of these migrants.
    Endless supply from Bangladesh,Somalia,Pakistan and similar other paradises.
    Neither Cameron nor Corbyn and for that matter Johnson show any inclination to stop that flow.
    You can call referendum each year – it will make no difference.

    • Coopercap

      How is the EU population static when new members are regularly admitted. Turkey’s 70 million being just one of those lining up.

      That is before we discuss those joining from the ranks of the Eurozone’s unemployed.

      • Central power

        Turkey will not be admitted in our lifetime. Turkey applied in 1987. Lisbon Treaty states quite clearly that accession must be ratified by ALL member states.By the way.The most enthusiastic supporter of Turkey’s membership – you have guessed it – The United Kingdom.

  • Conway

    He wants to be able to say that he made Britain more ‘socially just’.” He can say it, he just won’t have actually done it, just like everything he says. If he were serious about social justice, he’d have done something about the appalling education system which fails so many working class children, particularly boys.

  • tenbelly

    Listen Forsyth, whatever it takes, Referendum 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 or twenty.
    The fight will go on and on and on until we get our country back from the Evil Empire.
    BREXIT

    • JoeCro

      Neverendum. Whatever side loses has to respect the result, the people will have spoken.

      • mailbiter

        As exactly the same time!

      • tenbelly

        No one has the right to give away my country.
        The fight will go on.

        • JoeCro

          No one should have the right to take away my European citizenship.

          • tenbelly

            ..and who would lead you against us, Juncker or Schultz?
            We will have the ghost of The Iron Duke.

          • JoeCro

            Cameron.

          • goodsoldier

            Cameron can’t even keep his pecker up, and you want him to lead you?

    • mailbiter

      Just to test that ‘neverendum’ position, do you think the SNP should keep going until Scotland gets its independence?

      • tenbelly

        Yes, let the Jocks do what they like.

        • mailbiter

          Apologies. I thought you were a UKIP supporter.

          • tenbelly

            I will support any organization that will help us get out of the clutches of the filthy EU, ISIS if they could do it.

          • mailbiter

            What I meant was that many kippers want shot of Scotland. To break up the UK, in other words. Which make UKIP something of a misnomer.

          • tenbelly

            You’re right it should be EIP.

          • mailbiter

            What about Wales and Northern Ireland?

          • tenbelly

            Where is Wales?

          • mailbiter

            Where are whales, surely.

          • tenbelly

            Wales, Wales, bloody great fish.

          • JoeCro

            They live in the sea, we eat them for tea

          • tenbelly

            They also roll up at Twickenham occasionally and get thoroughly smashed.

          • JoeCro

            They live in the sea, we eat them for tea

          • Fissionchips

            Not too dissimilar to Sturgeons in outlook

          • Fissionchips

            I like the sound of that and the drowning drone of the SNP’s

    • Michael W

      Evil Empire- perifidious Albion?

    • davidblameron

      we’ll know for sure in 5 weeks time

  • Conway

    The crucial issue in the EU right now is how the eurozone resolves its
    structural problems. How to make a one-size currency fit all its
    members?
    ” As it can’t without a dictatorship and one fiscal policy/Treasury – in other words, a United States of Europe – that means staying in will inevitably result in the loss of the pound and complete loss of control of our economy (we’ve already lost control of taxation and our legal system). You can’t have at most two “regions” using a different currency from the other forty-three (once the new states have joined). Vote to LEAVE, it’s the only sensible option. Let’s save Europe from the EU.

  • Conway

    And if it [the eurozone] votes as a bloc, the UK could be regularly defeated. Our ability to influence both individual decisions and the overall direction of the EU would be greatly reduced.” We already have no influence and are the nation most often defeated in votes. These are all good reasons to LEAVE.

    • WuffoTheWonderDog

      Agreed, but this is the Spectator which needs to cultivate the BBC and Number 10.

  • Conway

    I see you think the vote will be close. With the exception of a visit to a university where stay had a slight advantage, but a lot of people were undecided, my contact with the public is almost overwhelmingly in favour of LEAVE. I co-ordinate several different campaigns in my area and I’m constantly getting new volunteers to leaflet for LEAVE. I have yet to see any enthusiasm for staying in (leafleting, posters, table days) other than official lies that have been posted to my house.

    • Sarony

      I’ve not received my copy of the Government’s £9m paeon of praise to the EU. I wonder if it’s been quietly pulped.

      • WuffoTheWonderDog

        Me as well. Perhaps postmen are dumping them wholesale.
        My postman has taken Leave leaflets to deliver for me.
        He tells me all his colleagues are for Out.

    • sir_graphus

      Where I live I only know 1 other leaver.

    • PaD

      Sincere Thank you for all your work!

    • Mary Ann

      I expect most remainers are too polite to tell you that you are wrong.

  • Conway

    When are we going to have an article on the fact that on May 6th it became illegal to criticise the Commission? The European Court of Justice ruled that the right to complain about, or otherwise point out, the failings or wrongdoings of the EU Commission is illegal and gave the Commission the right to legally punish “individuals who damage the institution’s image and reputation”. At the risk of sounding like Boris Johnson, it smacks of the 1933 Enabling Act.

    • Central power

      Where are the EU concentration camps? Please give us the location of the UK offices of Geheime Staatspolizei.

      • Lawrence James.

        In the grotesque imaginations of the victims of acute paranoia.

  • Denis_Cooper

    If Remain win the government will not risk another EU referendum for decades, if ever.

    • Lawrence James.

      And rightly so.

    • Pretty_Polly

      Surely that depends entirely on who leads the government?

    • WuffoTheWonderDog

      And so will lose subsequent elections due to a surge to UKIP, a la the SNP post their independence defeat.

      • Mary Ann

        I doubt it, too many people really dislike Farage and ukid, or regard him as an idiot, a joke.

    • davidblameron

      will it be universally accepted?

      • Denis_Cooper

        No, but that wouldn’t matter provided there was a pro-EU majority in the Commons to prevent another referendum Act being passed.

        • davidblameron

          The PM has pledged one vote on our EU membership and it would be final, one of the few sensible things he has decided. There is no point in holding further (very expensive) referenda because it is clear before the first one that the country is divided, so the ‘right’ result for one side or the other could never materialize.

      • Mary Ann

        Well it should be, the brexiters are always complaining about a lack of democracy, Farage has said that remain can only win if they get more than two thirds of the vote, is he the judge. Are the brexiters going to allow him to overthrow democracy.

  • John Andrews

    The Tory party will take us out of Europe or die in the attempt – or both. Cameron is here today and gone tomorrow.

  • congreve

    Was I alone in wondering what, after Brexit WWIII, could David come up with as the Ultimate Frightener?

    Now, thanks to Spectator comments, I have my answer — the threat of Neverendums, plebiscites in perpetuity, Scotchit and Brexit, relentlessly restaged until the crack of doom.

    • alfredo

      No, the ultimate threat is eternal damnation for voting to Leave. Both Anglican and RC bishops are already rehearsing, but I don’t think it’s been decided who’ll pronounce the final anathema. Perhaps Bergoglio himself can be wheeled on if he can be persuaded that it will do his ‘progressive’ image some good. Or will it have to be Rowan Williams – again?

      • Emmet Krull

        Yes. Even the pope – il papa bizarromalvinas has told us to welcome the hordes of muslim ‘refugees’ to Europe, as apparently we all worship the ‘same’ God. Which begs the question: if we all worship the ‘same’ God – why is Christmas so offensive to muslims?

    • Mary Ann

      Well at least it isn’t Cameron who is threatening neverendums, it is Farage and Boris.

  • Michael W

    I wouldnt be so cocksure that the Indyref2 is safely on the backburner in Scotland. Sturgeon and the other gradualists will have no hiding place if the UK votes to leave the EU.

    • Tom Cullem

      They’ll scream about it but with the plunge in oil prices, and likely a permanent one, and their deficit, and the years it takes to get into the EU, I doubt they’ll risk cutting themselves off from Westminster’s subsidies.

      • LG

        Low prices will be as permanent as high ones were.

  • Tom Cullem

    Moot point. The EU’s deal with Turkey is either unsustainable, in which case Turkey will unleash the migrants it took back onto the gates of Europe, or it will end in visa liberalisation and an inevitable successful terror attack in Europe which will lead, finally, to the suspension of Schengen as member states, having had enough of Brussels’ incompetence, just put up the fences and have done with it. As it is, it seems likely that Paris was yet again the site of another terror incursion, as whatever happened to that EgyptAir flight was implemented at Orly, where it took off from.

    The EU cannot protect its borders, cannot make the Eurozone the galloping success it promised, and is facing the rise of the far right across Europe – keep your eyes on the Austrian presidential elections this Sunday, as Hofer of the FPO is favored to win on the second round.

    No control of migrant crisis, more terror attacks, Eurozone continued stagnant, howls of outrage in the UK as the EU unveils its bigger budget, asylum process takeover, imposition of huge fees for every migrant they think we should take but don’t, according to a number arrived at in Brussels by Brussels, full accession to ECHR, and a host of other infuriating stuff . . .

    It isn’t about whether the Tories will stop talking about Europe or whether referendum #2 is possible (after all, they held three in Denmark before they got the IN vote they wanted) – it will be about the additional voters flying into the arms of UKIP, and an EU that is collapsing anyway as the right gains power.

    • Central power

      Don’t despair.There is no EU in North Korea, Bangladesh and Afghanistan.

      • Emmet Krull

        North Korea, Bangladesh, Afghanistan and the UK – spot the odd one out. No terror attacks in North Korea in the past or anytime soon. Brexit.

        • Mary Ann

          Why don’t you go and live in North Korea if you think it’s so marvellous.

          • Emmet Krull

            Perhaps you should go back to Bagdad.

    • WuffoTheWonderDog

      What deal with Turkey?
      Turkey has taken back very few migrants.

  • WuffoTheWonderDog

    “Will his premiership be spoiled by Europe, as Tony Blair’s was by Iraq?”
    Blair’s wasn’t spoiled by Iraq. Blair spoiled every thing with his dodgy-dossier war.

  • grumpyoldrockape

    In today’s edition of The Times on page 4 ;- ‘Irish ties threatened by Cameron’s tougher benefits deal’.

    The “emergency brake” on in-work benefits, which was regarded as the center piece of Cameron’s new settlement with the EU has been dogged by legal problems.The European Commission has concerns that the plan amounted to discrimination and would be successfully challenged in the EU courts by eastern European migrant workers.

    Cameron’s new EU deal is already unraveling.
    His re negotiation amounts to little more than a farce.
    If you sent Cameron to the chippy for Fish&Chips he’d come back with only a wooden fork and tell you to enjoy the meal.
    Vote Brexit to get our independence back and wave good bye to Cameron while you are at it.

    • James McCarthy

      > If you sent Cameron to the chippy for Fish&Chips he’d come back with only a wooden fork and tell you to enjoy the meal.

      And not give you any change.

  • davidofkent

    It all depends! A very close result with a tiny majority to REMAIN will not satisfy LEAVERS. The EU will undoubtedly play up and and turn some ‘don’t knows’ off our membership. In any case, much more of this immigration to the UK and/or mass economic migration into the EU will turn people away from the EU. When the clamour starts for another referendum, the UK government will be unable to refuse it. The same would be true of a Scottish Independence re-referendum, but the collapse of the oil industry has made even ardent SNP supporters sit up and take notice.

    • Mary Ann

      So you think the brexiters shouldn’t respect the will of the people despite the fact that brexiters keep complaining about a lack of democracy in the EU. Brexit only wants democracy when it goes their way.

  • davidblameron

    Paxo just done a very Eurosceptic prog 8 – 9p:m on BBC1 !!! If you missed it, catch it on I-player.

    • EppingBlogger

      The few minutes I saw he was giving a British Euro bureaucrat an easy time.

      • davidblameron

        All through the programme, there was a theme of : ‘Why do we need it?’

    • Mary Ann

      So do you agree that the BBC is not biased?

      • davidblameron

        I’m afraid it is but it does surprise now and again.

  • Fudsdad

    Cameron has played it all wrong by being so fiercely on the Remain side. He could have said, “Look I will respect the decision the country takes but I believe on balance that we are better staying in a reformed Europe”. Instead he has alienated the Leave side and voters.

    • Alex

      Isn’t that exactly what he has said?

      • Ivan Ewan

        Yes, except he recently dropped the “reformed” part, given that he couldn’t convince us that the pittance he asked of the EU counted as any kind of reform.

        • Alex

          That’s because it was constructed from hysterical Daily Mail headlines about issues which don’t actually exist, were solved ages ago, are logically incoherent, etc.

          • Aberrant_Apostrophe

            You obviously didn’t read Cameron’s £9m taxpayer funded propaganda masterpiece. On page 1 it states: “The UK has secured a special status in a reformed EU’. One half-truth and one lie in one short sentence.

      • James McCarthy

        Not really, he’s hinted at war and an economic depression the likes of which we’ve never seen if we leave.

        He’s also said Putin and ISIS want us to vote out.

      • Fudsdad

        No. He has nailed his political future to the result.

  • Give our God Immortal Praise

    Cameron non-democratically imposed same s*x so-called marriage. That’s all you need to know about Cameron. Fact.

    • davidblameron

      it wasn’t even in the 2010 manifesto ; neither is, watch out for this one – be very worried, in the 2015 manifesto, the Counter Extremism Bill, ostensibly to clamp down on supporters of Islamic terrorism but to treat all opposition to HM Government as potential terrorists. Like Blair’s 2004 Civil Contingencies Act which gave COBRA the power to suspend Parliament and the democratically elected Government and make Ministers legally dictators overnight.

  • sir_graphus

    Of course we’ll get a 2nd referendum if we don’t give them the answer they want. It’s what happens every time. We might even get some proper concessions for the next vote.

    If we vote remain, they’ll walk all over us forever.

    • Mary Ann

      When has that happened before in Britain?

      • sir_graphus

        When hasn’t that happened with the EU?

  • Thomas Katz

    Brexiteers? If a civil war breaks out after Cameron has rigged the referendum, what will leave side be called?

    • Roger

      The New British Conservative Party.

    • Mary Ann

      Cameron doesn’t need to rig the referendum if he could, people will come to their senses and realise the brexiters are offering nothing but hot air.

      • The Third Man

        Mary Ann, that is a little harsh as Brexit is offering returned sovereignty, more democracy and greater security. What is Remain offering?

  • Roger Hudson

    To repeat a previous comment I wrote elsewhere ” Whoever loses, the political climate will be poisoned for a generation”. For me this referendum is the re-run of the pathetic 1975 campaign, which gave a perverse result due to poor turnout and the way the ‘in’ campaign controlled the debate.
    Status Quo always seems to beat change, a pity.
    I voted ‘out’ last time as fishing, farming (small farms) and UK parliamentary sovereignty have always been important, not short term economics.

    • alfredo

      Yes, but it’s not a question of a ‘status quo’. A Remain vote will be taken as a signal by Brussels that they’ve got us where they want us and they’ll steam ahead with greater rapidity with ‘more Europe’ and will implement all the unpopular measures they’ll been concealing behind their backs until 24 June.

    • Mary Ann

      I voted in last time and I have never regretted it and I shall vote in again, it is the right thing to do. The Brexiters are living in cloud cuckoo land, they think everything is going to go exactly the way they want it, dream on.

      • Roger

        I doubt that they do, however, those wishing to remain laughingly think that this is some steady state situation that can be maintained and that the EU is a Safe Haven. Get ready for the roller coaster no matter which way we turn.

      • mrbimble

        So do you think you are voting for the status quo? If not what do you think you are voting for?

  • King Zog

    “He wants to be able to say that he made Britain more ‘socially just’”

    No conservative should want to say that.

    • Mary Ann

      Making the country just is for the opposition.

  • davidblameron

    The Prime Minister has pledged there will be just one referendum and the result will be final. I hope that is clear.

    • Mary Ann

      Only if the remain vote is more than two thirds, according to Farage, I know he doesn’t run the country, he can’t even win a seat in Parliament, but he is a bad loser.

      • davidblameron

        Common Law democracy says that one vote over 50% will suffice for victory but less than 1% over half would probably necessitate at least one recount ; the vote may well be close.

      • mrbimble

        I think everyone is a bad loser when it hasn’t been a fair fight and this has not been a fair fight. For starters Cameron should not be leading the IN campaign. He has spent taxpayers money on leaflets that the OUT campaign could not have done. They have added names to letters without the signatory’s permission and he has used the civil service to even write the letters. He lies about Turkey, he lies about the creation of an EU army, he lies about TTIP. The most telling thing of all is his refusal to go head to head in a debate with Farage, or indeed with anyone. The man is a coward who is all mouth and no trousers. Ask yourself why he wants this so badly. It will come down to money and promises, nothing to do with loving his country. How can anyone trust him?

    • Roger

      He is a Politician. Enough said.

      • davidblameron

        He has been put under more pressure than he is capable of withstanding during this campaign, it is becoming more than he expected, he will accept the result announced on Friday 24th June because he will receive no support for not doing so, he is not capable of anything without support from others. Enough said.

  • Roger

    If we vote out the EU will in the next 12 to 24 months move Heaven and Earth to persuade us to change our mind. More sweeties will be piled up and whoever is IC will recommend these Gob Stoppers to the nation. So vote tactically. The question will be why did the EU have to wait for the 11th hours? Answer Cameron. He asked for the minimum and accepted less, all written on the fabric of fog.
    I believe there is a high expectation/possibility of a 2nd referendum within a year or two to rubber stamp the heroic wins gained by our brave PM to save us from an ignominious future chained permanently to a Begging Bowl.

    • Mary Ann

      You think the remainers are going to fall for that.

      • Roger

        They made up their minds years ago and are too scared to leave the middle of a big herd even if it strays towards a precipice. So short answer is no.

  • Norton Folgate

    Oh God, make it stop… Now the artistic community is involved, we in Dalston really cannot face a second bout of luvvies for Europe. Just too, too horrible… http://bit.ly/23ZtUTk

  • Hans Yolo

    Cameron will forever be remembered as a traitor who tried to sell out his own country to the global elite. May he rot.

    • davidblameron

      can tell straight away you’re not a huge fan of the Prime Minister.

    • kyle lynch

      Yes because it isnt like our country is ruled by a global elite at all… It is not like we have an unelected monarchy, or upper house, or our politicians mostly went to exclusive wealthy schools…. oh wait.

  • hobspawn

    Since they’ve disabled comments on the Erdogan limerick story I may as well post here.

    A friend of mine sent in a poem which I think was better than Boris’s winner. Here it is:

    A goat-herd called ‘Wretched’ Erdogan,
    Was ​sodding the goat he preferred again.
    He wiped off the curd,
    Said “Shh – mutti’s the word”,
    Then dipped his delight in the ​turd again.

    If you think it is a worthier winner than Boris’s effort, please upvote this comment.

  • Andrew fear

    Weak leadership has always been the safest option for politicians in power. Promise little and deliver less. Ask for little and accept even less. A strong leader should have asked the European Union for a deal to stay in and a trade deal, migration deal and imigration deal for exiting the EU. Why did David Cameron not do this? We could have had an amazingly informed and fair referendum. With a simple choice: choose this deal or choose this deal, In or out.

    So I ask you nicely for your time. Sign this petition and ask for the above?

    https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/130940/sponsors/qcFi2AGNTUa3B4lo7Q1

    • Mary Ann

      I followed the link only goes to the, sign the petition page. Would you provide a link to the wording of the petition.

      • Andrew fear

        Sorry. Had to get past the sponsor stage. Which meracuasly it has.

        https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/130940

        The petition has now been published please follow the link and if you agree please spread the word where ever you can. Thanks for you’re interest.

  • Andrew Cole

    HURRAH (just in case we lose)

  • Watt

    Cameron has damaged the party and it won’t be forgotten till he’s replaced by a Brexiteer.

    • Disqus Bolloqus

      Conservatives are finished either way

      • davidblameron

        they are, the Party is on a life support machine

    • kyle lynch

      Why? The Tories are split on the decision so why must he be replaced by a Brexiteer? People like Boris Johnson have been unable to form any cogent argument to leave and have done nothing but scapegoat and lie about the situation.

      • mrbimble

        Boris was the wrong man for the job and there is an investigation going on about whether Vote Leave should have been the main campaign group. Boris’s heart isn’t in it and I suspect he could even be a plant installed to ensure the leave campaign is weak. He has missed so many chances to put forward some strong arguments.

        • kyle lynch

          I doubt he is a plant, that is just tin foil hat style speculation. Considering when he joined the foray everyone jumped up and down with joy, now they are placing their heads in the hands. First farage now this buffoon. Who else is to lead the out campaign who is at the very least a tiny bit honest.

  • rjbh

    Power should be handed to the SNP… at least they have a positive view of future Britain.

    • davidblameron

      If the Scots want freedom, they’d be wise to wait for the Federal Kingdom ; they won’t be free under the Stalinist SNP.

    • davidblameron

      if we do vote to stay in, please no, they can run the show for all I would care.

  • davidblameron

    ‘The next Conservative Government will campaign for Brexit’
    It won’t need to, Brexit will be achieved at the first and ONLY referendum on Thursday 23rd June.
    I call on all patriotic Britons who still believe in their country : L E A V E

    • Andrew fear

      First you will need a fair referendum.

      Please show your support for a better referendum.

      https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/130940

      • davidblameron

        I just want Britain to LEAVE
        I’m pinning my hopes on a decisive vote on 23rd June.

        • kyle lynch

          Why though?

          • davidblameron

            Because our lives are ultimately being run by people in flash suits sitting in flash offices in a foreign capital who don’t have to answer to us while the ones who are supposed to represent us, who we pay just do what them in the foreign capital tell them. It allows our current leader to be lazy on pass the buck to people we can’t deselect. You like the other remainians just want to see your own country subjugated.

          • mrbimble

            Watch Jeremy Paxman’s programme from last week entitled “Who Rules Us” and you will get an idea. Add to that the fact that EU law is above UK law. The EU is for the elite and not for the people and we do not have democracy. Within the EU we are restricted on what we can do and who we can trade with, outside we can trade with the world, and make our own decisions on everything. That is just for starters.

          • kyle lynch

            However EU law only focuses on very specific areas, such as trade, workers rights and environmental regulations. You know those areas that ensure you get a high quality of good as advertised, that you are protected from being abused by your employer, and that your children still have a planet to live on.
            We can trade with whomever we please, last i checked I could still import goods from Brazil, the US and China.

      • kyle lynch

        The referendum is fair and he complied with exactly what was demanded of him. People wanted a swift referendum and it is not his fault that people seem happy to leap before they look.

        • Andrew fear

          So a fair referendum is not about polititions delivering facts about the benifits of leaving or staying? They say what ever they like true or false and then if somebody makes a decision based on what they say, it’s a leap of faith. You my friend have no clue, all of your posts about this topic show whilst others are trying to do what they can to find some truth in the debate, your the one, blindly, taking a leap of faith.

        • mrbimble

          People didn’t want a swift referendum, Cameron did because he was terrified that the images of more refugees landing on European shores and riots in Calais would make Brexit more likely. He also didn’t want to risk anything unpopular coming from Brussels to put more people off. That and the possibility of a terrorist attack anywhere in the EU could all push more people to wanting out and he cannot risk that. Personally I think the referendum is too soon.

    • kyle lynch

      I call on all patriotic Britons who still believe in their country… STAY.

  • John M

    I disagree with your summation above of the history or the Brexiter’s position. Among the public, wanting to leave the EU has been anything but an unusual position. What has happened, is that for the best part of 30 years the political classes have cabaled together to continually avoid the entire subject, to kick the can down the road, whilst making further concessions to thier political class chums in Brussels.

    Time after time any discussion about the EU, or any noble pledges to reform it made during election campaigns on both sides have been either forgotton or reneged on as soon as the next Prime Minister took power. In more recent years the chicanery of avoiding even serious debate has become outrageous, with endless talk of referendum locks and red lines (which again are quietly betrayed as soon as they think nobody is looking)

    The only reason we’re even getting a referendum this time is because of the 2014 EU election results. Cameron offered a referendum not because he believes in it, or because it’s the right thing to do but because the UKIP vote amongst the public and thier clear frustration with Cameron’s filibustering was threatening to cost him a second turn. So he did the Cameron thing and said whatever he needed to save the moment and he’s been backtracking on it ever since he was re-elected.

    The pair of them are bloody frauds in my view. They are not interested in leading in the interests of the country but instead respond only to what benefits them and thier party. They are a totem to everything that the public despise about the Political classes and the way they behave.

  • TrumpGodzillaRising

    The UK is full of freeloading cowards, Remain will win.

  • Jack Rocks

    Two dozen MPs is enough to cause Cameron trouble. There are more than that who’ll want him gone after the referendum.

  • macukguy

    Cameron’s place in history will be as traitor who will be remembered for selling this country down the river when all the EU chickens come home to roost in a few years time.

    • kyle lynch

      What? In what sense is that going to be seen as at all true?

      • mrbimble

        I should think, when the EU Army materialises, when it becomes apparent that the so-called “deal” was thrown into the bin, when we have to take more and more “refugees”, when TTIP comes into force and jobs are lost and the NHS is under offer, when VAT is put on food, when the Eurozone gets more impoverished. There will be an awful lot coming our way from Brussels that Cameron is aware of but is keeping very quiet about.

  • Jojje 3000

    In the UK the Conservatives are more prone to infighting than their counterpart Labour. This is unique in Europe, I think, where usually the left falls apart at some regular frequency.

    • Anglocynic

      Falling apart to the extent that Cameron has said he would prefer to see a Labour government in power rather than see the UK leave the EU.
      Pretty much sums him up, definitely not a statesman nor patriot.

      • mrbimble

        Did he really? When? Do you have a link please?

  • Anglocynic

    The author is making an assumption that in the future the EU will not pass some type of instruction/directive that all national referenda on any subject pertaining to the EU must first be agreed by at least 95% of the current members.
    I am being somewhat cynical I know, but don’t scoff at me just yet!

    • kyle lynch

      If you have evidence of them introducing such legislation then provide otherwise people like me will scoff away.

      • Anglocynic

        All I will have to do is wait until after the 23rd if the vote is to remain.

  • kyle lynch

    So essentially if they dont get the result they want they will keep trying until they do and probably then claim that they are just voicing the opinions of the people. Whilst a decision to stay is not the end of the EU debate and it shouldnt be but it is not an excuse to then hold people at gun point until they agree.

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