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France’s civil war — and the struggle facing Europe

...and the struggle facing Europe

21 November 2015

9:00 AM

21 November 2015

9:00 AM

In the wake of the massacre in Paris, President François Hollande said that France was ‘at war’ — and that it must be fought both inside his country and outside in the Middle East. As the French air force began dropping bombs on Raqqa in Syria, another operation was under way in towns and cities across France: 168 raids in two days. A battle on two fronts has begun.

Chartres cathedral is one of the great monuments of western civilisation, but Chartres was also home to one of the Bataclan theatre suicide bombers. A man from the same area died last summer in Syria, fighting for Isis. In Lyon, theraids turned up a rocket launcher. On Tuesday night, a large-scale counter-terror assault was launched in St Denis in Paris. After heavy gunfire, a woman blew herself up by detonating a suicide belt, according to the police.

That the French police know where to look is heartening. That there are so many places to look is not. Long before this week’s slaughter, the French have known that large parts of France are effectively not French.

Ten years ago, when the banlieues lit up and more than 9,000 cars were burnt, the world paid some attention. But it soon sank back into denial. Statesman talk of the danger of ‘ungoverned spaces’ in the Middle East and Africa. But the ungoverned spaces in France and in other parts of Europe were largely ignored.

Earlier this year an American counter-terrorism expert appeared on Fox News and claimed that major cities in European countries, including Britain and France, had ‘no-go’ zones where non-Muslims and the police simply did not go. He was widely ridiculed and even disparaged by the Prime Minister himself. The Socialist party’s mayor of Paris, Anne Hidalgo, went further and said she would sue Steven Emerson and Fox News for harming the ‘image’ of her city. Coming, as this did, only days after the Kouachi brothers gunned down 12 people in Charlie Hebdo’s offices and another gunman slaughtered four Jews in a kosher food market, one might have thought that Paris had other ‘image’ problems going on. But the backlash was striking. Mainly because it looked like what psychiatrists call displacement activity.

Perhaps the murder of cartoonists and Jews just wasn’t enough, and it was always going to take the simultaneous mass murder of concert-goers, football fans and people eating in restaurants to help the world wake up. In any case, it’s now undeniable that there are no-go zones both in France and Europe.


This week’s jihadi hunt has focused on the Brussels suburb of Molenbeek. It is thought that two of the terrorists who carried out the attacks last Friday had been living there. Molenbeek is a heavily Muslim suburb — an area over which Belgian authorities admit they long ago lost control.

It undoubtedly shares characteristics with many other poor European suburbs: ugly social housing and high levels of unemployment. But that could be said of many cities. What makes these no-go areas notable is the size and density of their Muslim populations.

It is a problem which no country in Europe experiences so catastrophically as France. In 2011 a report commissioned by the Institut Montaigne, and directed by the noted Islamic scholar Gilles Kepel, found that Seine-Saint-Denis and a clutch of other suburbs of Paris were becoming ‘separate Islamic societies’, holding themselves out as separate from the French state and instituting the rule of Sharia over that of French law. It found that French Muslims were increasingly aligning themselves with Islamist values rather than those of the French state. It is no coincidence that France has the largest percentage of Muslims in its population (around 10 per cent) of anywhere in western Europe. Wherever the concentration gets above a certain level (perhaps 20 per cent), consequences follow. French social planning put all their Muslim immigrants in one place (and usually a place of mass unemployment). And unsurprisingly, it is in the areas with the greatest density of Muslim population that the greatest problems emerge.

By 2012, the problem of semi-autonomy had got so bad that the French government was forced to unveil plans to reassert the state’s control over 15 areas, including parts of Lyon, Montpellier, Nice, Strasbourg, Amiens and Aubervilliers, where the population is more than 70 per cent Muslim and the police rarely went. Two years later, a leaked French intelligence document warned that Sharia law was being implemented in schools in Muslim ghettoes. The report gave 70 examples of Muslims turning secular French schools into places of religious indoctrination governed by Islamic law.

The question now for France is whether Hollande’s efforts to reimpose French law are any more successful than the efforts of Sarkozy, and whether they are a spasm or a mission. You could argue that Hollande now at least has events behind him. But in the past there have been quite a number of occasions, although not as bloody as this one, when individual cases have broken the surface and temporarily shocked France from its sleep-walk into dissolution and civil war: the stoning to death of a young Muslim woman in Marseilles in 2004; the torture and murder of a young Jewish man by a Muslim gang in the Parisian suburb of Bagneux in 2006; the murders of pupils at a Jewish school in Toulouse in 2012. Each time the Republic rallies, but the country’s pulling apart continues.

It is easy for outsiders to point to holes in France’s post-war immigration strategy or the failure of its model of integration. And it is true that France has done immigration and integration badly. But who has not? Yes, travelling on public transport in France you notice lines and routes on which everyone is black and others where nobody is. But there are similar phenomena now across Scandinavia, central and southern Europe.

Nor can we be complacent in Britain. It was appropriate for the Prime Minister to leap to Birmingham’s defence when Fox broadcast their piece in January. But Birmingham is in fact a striking example of our own problem. The city remains one of the biggest producers of domestic terrorists and Isis fighters in Britain. Perhaps most striking is the fact that nine tenths of Birmingham’s convicted terrorists come from areas where the Muslim population is between 25 and 50 per cent (the latter figure being more than ten times the national average). Likewise, before anyone notices the centrality of ‘Sharia 4 Belgium’ to the continent’s jihad, it is worth noting that the group’s launch was enabled by Muslim extremists from Britain.

Nor is it at all certain that Britain will continue to avoid another mass casualty attack. The Prime Minister recently said the security services had thwarted seven major attacks in the UK in the past six months alone.

Of course, it is important to remember how many Muslims in France and Britain came here precisely to avoid the fundamentalists in their faith. And there were problems long before the current migration wave. But as countries like Germany and Sweden decide to take in an additional 1 per cent of their population each year from majority Muslim countries, it is not scaremongering but a simple statement of fact to say that the Muslim population in Europe will increase. And at some point other European countries will go on to experience the kind of problems France has. Perhaps this will bring a popular backlash similar to that now under way in France.

But in some ways that would be the lesser of two evils. For if the trend of the no-gozone is not at some point halted or reversed, we must realise that for France, and perhaps for Europe, this will not be decline. This will be fall.

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Show comments
  • Tadpole

    If you are correct that France’s current problems are a function of its large Muslim population, then what chance for Hollande’s “war”, since today they have announced that the planned intake of 30,000 “Syrian refugees” will proceed as planned. And this despite absolute proof that at least one of the recent terrorists arrived on a Syrian “refugee” passport.

    • Mary Ann

      France’s current problem is the result of bombing IS, one of the terrorists said so, do people lie just before killing themselves? Anyway didn’t most of them come from Belgium.

      • Tadpole

        Yes, bombing ISIS. With so many ISIS supporters living among them, and more invited.

        • Mary Ann

          The Syrian refugees are fleeing from violence.

          • ill-liberal

            Maybe, but unfortunately they are bringing violence along with them.

          • Mary Ann

            https://www.ipsos-mori.com/researchpublications/researcharchive/3188/Perceptions-are-not-reality-the-top-10-we-get-wrong.aspx

            Try looking at this and find out how little the average man actually knows about what is going on.

          • ill-liberal

            What has that got to do with anything ??

          • Mary Ann

            Did you take time to read it, 2 minutes is not very long. I’m sorry that you can’t work that out, but of course all your perceptions about the world are correct.

          • ill-liberal

            I read it and beyond a patronising insinuation that I’m not in possession of the facts then I’m not sure of it’s relevance. I’m not suggesting all refugees are actually terrorists, merely that by having no control of our borders and allowing mass migration from Syria, then we will also be allowing extreme threats through as well.

          • Mary Ann

            Fortunately Cameron has said that he will not take refugees that have already moved to Europe, he is taking ours from outside Europe, as for those who have come to Europe already they will settle in places like Germany who need migrants learn the language put their children into the local schools and get jobs and homes, it will take at least 5 years for them to get EU citizenship

          • ill-liberal

            Yes, thank god he got in and not Labour, imagine how bad it would have been ?? You’re lucky to know exactly how these migrants will behave in Germany. If they follow the example of many Muslim migrants they will in fact be disproportionately out of work and form their own communities where they have to speak German as little as possible. Don’t let a little thing like past evidence get in the way of your dream, at least you can feel good about yourself, not to worry about the communities who will be affected by this.

          • Mary Ann

            I expect they will be disproportionately out of work, it has already been proven that after sending in a CV that employers are less likely to offer an interview to someone with a Muslim or a black name than they are to someone with a British name, I don’t suppose the Germans are much different to the British.

          • lmda

            In France experiments with the cv anonyme did not produce the result you desire. Au contraire.

          • hobspawn

            Aren’t employers nasty! We should abolish them. Or send them to Syria and give their businesses to these nice refugees, who are always very racially open-minded.

          • milford

            So funny! That really made me laugh 😉

          • Alexsandr

            Deutsch Arbeitgeber erwarten potenzielle Mitarbeiter Deutsch sprechen

          • goodsoldier

            Cameron cannot and will not protect us. He is hand in hand with Juncker and the lying press as they call it in Germany.

          • Alexsandr

            and rape german girls. there was a mass rape in magdeburg reported in the german press on 5/11/15

          • ill-liberal

            There has been a report of 4 Syrians being accused in Kent or somewhere recently. All claiming to be under 18 now apparently, luckily no one has their passports.

          • Alexsandr

            no passport. not UK citizens, entered the country illegally. criminals. Deport.
            What is hard about that???

          • ill-liberal

            Lots apparently, although why that is the case is beyond me.

          • ill-liberal
          • Alexsandr

            no. as you have been told before, they will get EU papers in germany, then come to the uk where we speak english and have non contributary benefits.

          • Mr B J Mann

            Ha ha ha ha!

            We all know surveys are designed to get the answer the client wants.

            And the client for that survey was:

            “Hetan Shah, executive director of the Royal Statistical Societyl!

            So much for the perception that immigrants are discriminated against!!!

            And perceptions aren’t based on the population of some single croft island in the Shetlands:

            But on Londonistan and Mumbirmingham!

            And what odds the official “immigrant population?

            What about their ten “British” kids in a Saudi funded Madrassa?!

            The survey was not just done by a government department with an agenda:

            But the perceptions are based on the problem areas.

            It’s like when “every” driver surveyed thinks they are above average:

            They base it on “all” the bad driving they see.

            (How much by Musl!ms with a bought British, Bangladeshi, or no licence, or insurance, or MOT, or Tax?!).

            The fact that these appaling drivers are “only” ten to twenty percent of the total doesn’t alter the fact they are a big problem!

            A life or death problem!!!

          • Mary Ann

            It is not the only survey that proves discrimination in getting the work, Edinburgh have done something similar and so as some institution in the US, look it up. BTW, I used to work for Ipsos Mori, I know how they do surveys.

          • Mr B J Mann

            So you should know the questions a tailored to the result required.

          • Mr B J Mann

            And it doesn’t matter whether there is one survey or one hundred:

            My points still stand!

          • Alexsandr

            did they check language skills?

          • Guest 1

            But we know (UNHCR and Eurostat figures), that 80% of the current migrants are not from Syria. And, of course, of the 20%, some are fleeing Assad, and are Islamists Take in the Christians and the Yazidis, the rest can go to Muslim countries.

          • Mary Ann

            Umm, but isn’t that religious discrimination, and we criticise Muslim societies for religious discrimination. Lets face it, if you belong to the wrong sect of Islam you are no safer from IS than if you belong to any other religion.

          • Guest 1

            Discrimination? You’re worried about discrimination? Go and tell that to the families of the hundreds of casualties from Friday night. As for the ‘wrong sect’, the Shia (cf Iran) are no better than Sunni. I see you say nothing about the 80% who are not from Syria.

          • Mary Ann

            A lot of them are economic migrants, we have been told that they will be sent home when the wheat has been sorted from the chaff. And like it or not, it is religious discrimination, Christianity and Islam are different sects of the religion of Abraham, Jesus believed in the OT and the OT and parts of the Koran are the same. The world would be a better place without religion.

          • Guest 1

            80% of them, with 68% of all migrants & refugees young men. I don’t give a f&ck if it is religious discrimination – like I said, go and explain that to the victims and their families, you silly, fuzzy brained, cuddly person. And as for Jesus Christ – he represented a new compact between God and all humanity, which replaced (in Christian theology) the old compact between God and his chosen people, the Jews. The OT provides the theological-historical background to the new compact, the evidence of Jesus Christ’s (necessary) lineage in the House of David, and prophecy concerning the Messiah. If you want to make a sensible observation, compare the life and teaching of Christ with that of the war lord, killer, paedo, nutjob Mo.

          • Mary Ann

            There is actually a government campaign in France to make sure that the innocent Muslims don’t get blamed for last week, especially in schools, as most children tend to see things in black and white.

          • Guest 1

            And? How is that an answer to my point? More pertinently, have you noticed that, in fact, there hasn’t been any murderous ‘backlash’ by the French, any more than there was by the Spanish after the train bombings, or by us after 7/11, or the beheading of Drummer Rigby. The REALITY is that we are threatened by Islamism, that a substantial minority (probably a third, which in the UK equates to one million people) support the Islamists. Sticking your silly head in the sand doesn’t change that.

          • Damaris Tighe

            Btw, the death toll in the now-forgotten Madrid bombings was far higher than Paris – around 300.

          • Guest 1

            Quite.

          • Richard

            Not sure that the Muslims running around stabbing Jews are ISIS. And the deathly silence from them surrounding this is amazing. Ditto Islamic slavery in Africa that continues as we speak. Not a single peep from any of the Islamic scholars, countries, pressure groups, Muslims “human rights groups” (that is not a joke)…

          • Mary Ann

            I think the Jews are probably dealing with that in their usual way, As for slavery, is that Islamic, or is it like FGM being blamed on Islam when it is actually a way of controlling women, I don’t know.

          • Richard

            “usual way”?

          • Mary Ann

            Two eyes for an eye. You would think the Palestinians would have learnt by now.

          • Damaris Tighe

            Now isn’t that phraseology interesting? It seems that ‘nice’ Mary Ann saves her non-judgmentalism for Muslims.

          • Mr B J Mann

            So FMG and veiling, and all the rest, aren’t !slamic!

            So when did Mo and all his followers renounce and denounce them?

            Or are we still waiting?!

          • Mary Ann

            Mohammad was supposed to have said something along the lines of don’t cut them too severely, he probably had to except the existing culture in North Africa after all it goes back to the times of the Pharaohs, It also happens in Christian communities. Early Christians did the same thing, we still celebrate the ressurection at the time of the celebrations for the Saxon goddess of fertility, the first Sunday after the first full moon after the spring equinox, you can hardly get more pagan than that, except perhaps Christmas, or as it was Saturnalia and before that the Mid-winter solstice, Veiling is just men wanting to control women.

            Doctor Ameer Ali is the Vice President of the Regional Islamic Council of South East Asia.

            He calls the burqa and niqab “un-Islamic”.

            Doctor Ali says the coverings do not fit with modern values, and should not be worn in public places.

            “All that the Koran wants from the women is to dress modestly. For men and women. So if you think covering from head to toe in a black garment then I think there is something wrong with the thought process”, he says.

            “The burqa and the niqab, these two are the most extreme forms of covering a women. It has no place in the holy book, the Koran. It is the living relic of patriarchal, medieval, misogynist society.

            Try this one as well. http://www.aa.com.tr/en/politics/four-african-countries-ban-niqab/20991

          • Mr B J Mann

            So why are “liberals” not just forcing Western society to accept veiling (and not really condeming “Musl!ms” for FMG) but demonising anyone who disagrees with “racism”?!

          • Mr B J Mann

            So some Christian countries can show common sense?!?!

            So why does the “progressive” UK struggle to show it can be practical?!

          • Genie Balham

            Indeed the UK Left should be very cross at this change. The burka and niqab are Arab desert clothing. This is evidence of ‘cultural appropriation’ by naughty muslims. It is surely as bad as wearing a sombrero when you are not mexican.

            The fact these items are cultural and not religious is why the French (and a growing number of other countries) can ‘ban the burka’ in public. Rightly to, as it is a security risk and a barrier to interaction/communication.

          • Genie Balham

            As has been explained to you, MA, FGM is an old practice from North Africa – used to control women as you say – it is however condoned in the islamic hadith. It is now intertwined with islamic cultural practice within many, many of the sects. Malaysia, had no FGM prior to the introduction of islam, it is now rife within the Malay community – done to children and converts. (All Malay, the original people of the area, MUST be muslim, they have NO freedom of religion)

          • Alexsandr

            fgm is rife in some moslem communities, and in other religions. but its wrong whoever does it. and its been ignored by the pc people who are supposed to protect young girls.

          • hobspawn

            There are no innocent moslems. There are those who unconsciously work for the destruction of our society. There are those who dishonestly hope for the destruction of our society. There are those who actively plot and carry out the destruction of our society. Then there are those who resist islam and all its deceptions. Which category describes you?

          • Woman In White

            There are no innocent moslems

            That is a false statement, and contrary to the very Western philosophical/legal principle of “innocent until proven guilty” that terrorists of this sort seek to destroy.

          • Genie Balham

            Since the west has Freedom of Religion, i.e. a person can choose whether they want to be muslim….. They can leave anytime they wish too.

          • hobspawn

             “Since the west has Freedom of Religion, i.e. a person can choose whether they want to be muslim….. They can leave anytime they wish too.”

            Have a guess what the Koran prescribes as punishment for apostasy (leaving islam). Go on, guess. I bet you can’t.

          • Alexsandr

            yes. and get mordered by their family for apostism.

            There was a piece on radio 4 when they interviewed some ex muslims. their words were voiced by actors. wonder why?

          • hobspawn

             “There are no innocent moslems

            That is a false statement, and contrary to the very Western philosophical/legal principle of “innocent until proven guilty” that terrorists of this sort seek to destroy.”

            I don’t agree. A moslem believes that the Koran is the word of god, wherein god instructs the reader, personally, to slaughter innocents. To be a muslim is to accept a personal obligation to commit murder. That is why I say there is no such thing as an innocent muslim. Someone who claims to be a moslem but denies the obligation to murder innocent unbelievers is either lying (taqiyya) or not really a muslim (rejecting the command of Allah). Sadly, even those who reject this command still help to build the non-integrated mini-caliphates from which real moslems launch their assaults on the non-muslim world. While the Koran exists and moslems are in this country, these atrocities will never end. There are no innocent moslems.

          • Mr B J Mann

            Like that nice Westernised “progressive” lefty “liberal” Mr Hasan, or whatever his name is, who thinks all non Muslims are dirty cattle?!

          • Alexsandr

            mot read the koran then?

          • Mr B J Mann

            Errrr, no: NO ONE b1ames innocent Musl!ms!

            That’s just PC pr0paganda that protects the gu!lty ones!

            Talk about usefull !diots!

          • Alexsandr

            how do you separate the really innocent muslims from those who support daesh with their zakat or other support?

          • Damaris Tighe

            *sigh*

          • Guest 1

            Yes, ‘sigh’ indeed. God, I feel old in the face of all this – the simpering twits like ‘Mary Ann’, and the malevolent swine who want to see an end to Europe, its peoples, and nations.

          • Alexsandr

            EU stooges. the de-nationing of europe is an EU project.

          • Richard

            Wolves and poodles are both dogs. By your reckoning, they are identical.

          • Mary Ann

            They are all wolves under the skin.

          • hobspawn

            “They are all wolves under the skin.”

            At last you admit it.

          • Mr B J Mann

            Right, so you are confirming again it is dangerous to mix Musl!ms in with Christians and that we shouldn’t discriminate again different kinds of Musl!ms, but expel the lot!!!

          • Mary Ann

            I’m sorry that I did not explain clearly what I meant, send back the economic migrants and everyone else who is not a refugee, keep the refugees, after all if they have come to Europe to fight non Muslims they are not refugees. It is the intolerance of the religious belief of others that is the problem, that is a problem that should be dealt with by education not discrimination pity it is not socially acceptable to tell religious people that their gods are not real.

          • Mr B J Mann

            Ahhhh, your solution is to ask people are they really fleeing for their lives, or are they really terrorists?!

          • Alexsandr

            why? Muslims hate athiests, and will say so. So as an athiest i will say their sky fairy doesnt exist, there are no 72 virgins/raisins, and their so called prophet was a paedophile intolerant violent war lord, and their so called holy book is an incitement to intolerance, hatred and violence.

            The christans are equally deluded. But less violent and intolerant.

            Thoise are my beliefs and I have as much right to say so as god botherers have to push their views.

          • Germainecousin

            Mary Ann as she calls herself embodies the reason why Europe is screwed.

          • Genie Balham

            Absolutely. When you brush your hair and look in the mirror, and see your reflection; know that you are part of this downfall Mary Ann.

          • Alexsandr

            dunno how old MA is, but she may well have to wear a niquab by 2050

          • Mr B J Mann

            Right so you are saying it is dangerous to mix different kinds of Musl!ms in the same country, never mind Musl!ms with Christians, J=w and atheists!

            Glad we’ve got that cleared up!!!

          • Mary Ann

            The answer is not to judge people by the religion they were born into, most people are indoctrinated into their religion long before they reach the age of reason by those they trust the most.

          • hobspawn

            Mary Ann, I think you may be the stupidest person I’ve ever encountered online.

            Of course everyone is a beautiful snowflake inside. It’s just all those naughty religions which turn them bad. Carry on.

          • Mary Ann
          • Mr B J Mann

            You didn’t need to reconfirm a second time yet again that:

            it is dangerous to mix different kinds of Musl!ms in the same country, never mind Musl!ms with Christians, J=w and atheists!

            Glad we’ve got that cleared up ye again!!!

          • Genie Balham

            They are not born into this religion. Religion is always learnt, it is not innate,

            In the UK there is freedom of religion. A child is born un-thestic by law. They have yet to choose their religious state.

            You are dhimmifying yourself (and others) – the muslim religion insists that children MUST be muslim if their father is. Your attitude prevents the children of muslims from choosing for themselves what spiritual code they wish to follow. Why limit them because their parents are muslim? Why leave them to misogyny and a life of less opportunity? Why leave them victim to this out-dated religion?

            NB Consider the poor Sudanese woman who had to give birth in chains although she was christian and had married a christian all because her father was muslim.

          • Alexsandr

            cobblers. I was indoctrinated into the CofE when I was a kid. Then I stared to think for myself and realised it was all rubbish. been an athiets for about 40 years now and never had any thoughts that religion had something. OK my parents didnt want to kill me for apostism so I accept leaving Islam is difficult. but not impossible.

          • Richard

            Muslims can only add to the violence in any society, as we have repeatedly seen. The Left will ALWAYS like about Muslims because they want their votes. As all statistics show, they overwhelmingly vote Left.

          • Mr B J Mann

            Yeah:

            By going to their 72 V!rgins.

            Obviously that one in Belgium was a Les Bien!

          • Mary Ann

            I did read somewhere recently that the 72 virgins was mis-translated, pity one of them can’t come back and tell everyone that it isn’t true. I wonder how many bombers actually believe it.

          • Clive

            http://www.justislam.co.uk/product.php?products_id=216
            There is no promise of 72 virgins for martyrs, terrorists or suicide bombers anywhere in the Quran.

            The section many people claim promises this is Chapter (78) sūrat l-naba (The Great News). The controversy is due to the poor translation of ONE verse from verses 29 to 34….

            …The translation by Moshin

            And all things We have recorded in a Book. (29)

            So taste you (the results of your evil actions); No increase shall We give you, except in torment. (30)

            Verily, for the Muttaqûn[], there will be a success (Paradise); (31)

            Gardens and vineyards, (32)

            And young full-breasted (mature) maidens of equal age, (33)

            And a full cup (of wine). (34)

            …

            The translation by Yusuf Ali

            And all things have We preserved on record. (29)

            “So taste ye (the fruits of your deeds); for no increase shall We grant you, except in Punishment.” (30)

            Verily for the righteous there will be a fulfilment of (the Heart’s) desires; (31)

            Gardens enclosed, and Grape-vines; (32)

            Companions of Equal Age; (33)

            And a Cup full (to the Brim). (34)

          • Mary Ann

            Well I hope they are happy with their companions of equal age, wonder where Allah gets them from.

          • hobspawn

            “…wonder where Allah gets them from.”

            Rotherham.

          • Mary Ann

            Not funny.

          • hobspawn

            For once we can agree.

          • goodsoldier

            I hope your shift is soon over. How much do you get paid?

          • Mary Ann

            You’re the second person who has asked me if I’m a professional writer, if only, BTW, I was joking.

          • Mr B J Mann

            Oh right, THAT’S where the terrorists are going wrong!

            They are learning their religion from crappy English translations!!

            I can see an easy solution to this problem:

            NATO should parachute Arabic Qurans into the Calipate so that IS!S can read it in the original!!!!

          • Mr B J Mann

            And isn’t a maiden a virgin and a companion a concubine rather than a wife?!

          • Mr B J Mann

            Don’t ask me: ask, or better still, tell, the Musl!ms, especially the terr0rists!

          • Genie Balham

            Yes – 72 raisins…. Not so appealing..

            Oh, and muslimas don’t get virgins, they get gold. Cos that’s so useful in the afterlife. I think I would prefer chocolate.

          • Alexsandr

            i heard it was raisins.

          • Owen_Morgan

            How do you know they “are fleeing from violence”? How do you know they are actually “fleeing” at all? How do you propose to prove that any supposed refugee is what he claims to be?

          • Clive

            That’s a big question that governments have to answer.

            Because they have to answer it. Many european governments – including ours – are obliged by our own law to take in asylum seekers. The problem is to prove it. It takes time and that’s why it’s important this ‘safe country’ thing is established so that, say Serbs, are sent straight home.

          • Mr B J Mann

            Why Serbs? They were the only ones that didn’t have J!hadis fighting with them!!!

          • Alexsandr

            the law says they have to have arrived from an unsafe country. so unless they fly from syria to the UK, they have been in a safe country. so their asylum claim should fail. france is a safe country.

          • Tadpole

            Yes, and 70% of them fit young males who would apparently rather flee from violence than stay and fight for their nation, and happy to leave their women and children to face that violence and fend for themselves.

          • goodsoldier

            Then why didn’t they stay in Turkey and other Muslim countries where they would feel more at home? Here they hate us so much, they segregate themselves. And then people like you find excuses for them. Why do you defend them so profusely? Do you really believe that most of us are hateful racist ethnocentrics who despise foreigners? You’ve been brainwashed by media and television if you think so. Does it make you feel good about yourself, as though you are part of a resistance against Hitler?

          • Alexsandr

            money

          • Alexsandr

            no. they are fleeing safe havens in turkey and jordan.

      • Mr B J Mann

        Eh? So why aren’t the French, or Chinese foreign students blowing up concerts?

        The current problem is the result of France and Belgium, and the rest of Europe, setting up outposts of the Caliphate in their cities!

      • William_Brown

        How far back in history am I allowed to go back to continue your wilfully silly ‘you started it’ meme?

        • Genie Balham

          1400 years….

      • Richard

        Take it somewhere else, Abdul.

      • Guilttripjunkie

        Yes they did and this is even more alarming than had they sneaked in as so called ‘refugees’. It is yet another example of the folly of encouraging mass immigration of culturally incompatible people. Multi culturism is just one big epic fail!

      • milford

        Do people take their passports with them when they’re going to blow themselves to smithereens? Especially when it could be used by their cohorts to gain access to other EU countries? Unless they have border controls in paradise, the answer is no..

    • Guilttripjunkie

      Indeed, given the birth rates of these people the thirty thousand will be sixty thousand in a few years time.

      • AraucaniaPatagonia

        It’ll be 250,000+ in much less time than that as they seek to bring-in every last family member – or anyone they can convince the authorities is a family member – into Europe, scooping up every last benefit going in the process, all the while demanding more and more. And certainly *not* integrating.

  • E.I.Cronin

    A stoning??? in 2004? Never mind Syria or SA but Marseille???

    The cursed legacy of multiculturalism – civil war. Every refugee advocate and progressive should be forcibly restrained and read this article. Thanks as always Douglas – this is a goldmine.

  • Lord Aaron

    I don’t know why countries feel obligated to let in people no matter what, or feed and house them. For France and the rest of Europe, the situation has backfired. And yet, there is no intent to reverse the policies that led to this situation.

  • Kasperlos

    “…this will not be decline. This will be fall.” Precisely what is at stake, but how many do not believe it? That is a problem. Whether it is the fault of PC, Stockholm Syndrome, simple denial, the peril is existential. The clock ticks with each and every day that this situation is allowed to metastasize. The fact is that not just yesterday’s migrant but even later generations of non-Western oriented migrants do not care a wit for the noble history of Chartres or the Western Tradition; the last vestiges of the latter are dying out. And not necessarily by the migrants, but by the peoples of the West themselves who seemingly see little need to participate in living it, much less saving it. We are in a time of a void which nature abhors: the end of the Judeo-Christian-based Europe – whence came the values of the Western Tradition – to one of the modern secular humanism era – to the present battle where the world of Islam seeks to fill that void with their vision of religious-based values of terror. One hundred years ago the Great War ended Europe’s old political and societal order (but left intact its cultural identity) and ushered in a new one based on the modern state. World War Two solidified that notion to this day. But as Douglas Murray points out, even this order faces uncertainty. A challenging moment for Europe is an understatement. Which way does it want to go is the only relevant question.

  • sfin

    Immigration without integration is invasion.

    And, astonishingly, for the European political elite – including Britain’s – the policy marches on regardless.

    As citizens we have been forcibly disarmed whilst our governments import armed fanatics.

    These governments are now, not only failing in their first duty to secure the citizenry, they are actively killing us.

    • Atlas

      That is the indisputable reality, by refusing to except that Islam is wholly incompatible with western civilisation the European political class is dooming us to inevitable annihilation.

    • Shazza

      The correct term for this invasion is Hijrah. For the first time in the history of these isles, the British people have not been allowed to object, let alone protect themselves from a hostile force.

      • eat your greens

        You’re not British then? You object all the time. You never stop objecting.

      • milford

        It’s not the first time. We couldn’t object to WW1 or WW2 and we were totally unarmed in 1945. Please see my post above. The difference is, this time they’re actually inviting the enemy in with open arms.

      • eat your greens
        • Sue Smith

          Actually, this comes from one of my all-time fave films, “The Big Lebowski”.

          “You’re out of your element, Donny; shut the **** up!!”

    • Mary Ann

      I didn’t see any Gendarmes shooting innocent people, the people who committed the crime were the people who were doing the shooting. It was their choice, the other four and a half million Muslims living in France were not guilty.

      • Richard

        But, have there been any marches, ever, by Muslims, against the atrocities committed in their name? Or will they only march against Jews? And it is Jews they march against, not Israel, as the media has shown us.

      • Alexsandr

        how many give their zakat to daesh. how many shield the terrorists, or do the back office jobs forging papers and other admin.

    • David Power

      Absolutely right.

      WE NEED TO FORCE OUR POLITICIANS TO DEBATE THIS SUBJECT

      Under the “Petition Parliament Scheme” the government is committed to granting a House of Commons Debate for any petition which receives over 100,000 signatures.

      There is currently an open petition asking the Government to;

      “Stop all immigration and close the UK borders until ISIS is defeated”

      This petition has already reached over 420,000 signatures and is set to become the most popular petition since the scheme began.

      To insure that our politicians take our legitimate concerns about mass-Islamic-immigration seriously, this petition needs as many signatures as possible.

      Link to Petition… https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/107516

      • kuffir

        Its doing well in spite of being attacked by the papers, although there’s no such thing as bad publicity..

        There was an earlier one that triggered a very feeble debate in Westminster hall with a handful of minor MPs. Hopefully this one will top 1 million and force a bigger debate.

        Don’t be afraid to sign it, there are already too many signatures for them to put us on their sinister database.

      • sfin

        Signed, thank you.

      • Mary Ann

        That’s right, change our way of life, give into Daesh. Just the sort of reaction they want. Better close down the internet as well.

        • David Power

          That’s the sort of gibberish being peddled by the left wing propaganda mungers at broad casting house.

          And a British expat has just as much right to express their right to protest at the inforced genocide of the indigenous British as you do.

          If you are a woman, and you are advocating for the continuation of mass-Islamic-immigration into the UK, you are a turkey voting for Christmas and deserve all that’s heading your way.

        • Mr B J Mann

          Daesh want us to act like a proper country and close and police our borders?!

          See, even the Is1amists have more sense than you!!!!

        • milford

          No it’s not right. Cameron has just wiped 6.000 names off a petition that called for a vote of no confidence against him. He holds the electorate and democracy itself in utter contempt.

          • Genie Balham

            True – though even without the 6000 that petition still has over 100, 000 signatures. Why are they not debating it?

          • milford

            Exactly.

          • Mr B J Mann

            What’s this?!

      • milford

        Signed. Thanks.

    • William_Brown

      Precisely. The irony of Paris taking up most of the news this week, thus overshadowing the on-going ‘refugee’ scandal has, it seems, escaped most people…

    • Sid Falco

      “Integration” suggests to me some give and take, a meeting in the middle. Who wants that ?

      There is absolutely nothing about Islamic “culture” or that of the countries where the muslim immigrants hail from that I want any part of.

      If they come here they should have to drop their beliefs and practices, but they won’t so they shouldn’t be allowed to step foot in Europe.

      • sfin

        Bang on!

        When the lefties call me “bigot” or “intolerant”. I always say that I object to Islam, because even in its mildest form, it is bigoted and intolerant.

        Now, of course, in any form, it has the stink of death on it.

      • Guilttripjunkie

        Strangely enough Muslim countries tend to be ‘hideously’ mono cultural. Western European style multi culturism is simply not tolerated. The whole crypto Marxist concept of multi culturism is based upon a loathing of White Christian culture and heritage. It is inherantly racist as it deems all white countries to be flawed and as such need enriching by importing culturally incompatible immigrants in huge numbers.

        Part of this dogma is to encourage immigrants to set up their own parrallel communities following alien cultural norms and values which are at odds with those of the host culture. Self segregation is encouraged through absurdly soft immigration laws that facilitate ‘fetching’ marriages. This is what is driving Islamic conservatism and oppostion to modernity.

    • sidor

      What kind of arms does a majority need to straighten a minority and force them to behave? And what does it have to do with the government? Try to imagine a Christian ghetto in Saudi Arabia, populated by European immigrants who openly defy the social rules of the host country, organising violence and terror against the Moslem population. Already funny? Or you need more details? The problem is that the European governments have no balls to resist the Moslem aggression, and the reason is that the population of Europe have no balls. The Europeans have the governments they deserve. Like Merkel. Why haven’t we seen crowds of Germans stopping the immigrant crowd at the border and kicking them back to where they came from?

      So, what is the point in complaining about ourselves?

      • Guilttripjunkie

        The Saudis don’t even tolerate a Christianity yet alone its ghettos. Only in the Western Anglo sphere will you find ghettoes of people practicing an alien religions and cultural values.

      • milford

        If they did that they’d be arrested on the spot and tried for racist crimes. Ordinary people have to have their backs totally against the wall before they’ll break the law. While they still have some comfort in their lives they’ll just go home and watch telly. But I don’t think we deserve Merkel and the likes. A lot of people do very brave things in their everyday lives. We don’t deserve this.

    • Damaris Tighe

      Mass immigration is colonisation. Hated when it goes in the direction of Europe to Asia & Africa. Loved when it’s in the opposite direction. I no longer think this is stupidity by the European elites. I believe it is a deliberate choice in order to deconstruct the nation state.

      • Guilttripjunkie

        Even at the height of the British Empire very few Brits actually lived in the countries that had been colonised. This is in total contrast to modern immigration which has huge demographic affects.

        • Damaris Tighe

          Yes, exactly.

    • milford

      My mother told me that when we declared war on Germany we were completely unarmed. She said the home guard were sent to the beaches with broomsticks. Unbelievable I know but they had to convert every factory in the UK to arms manufacture pronto, so it does stack up. They also said the not to worry the war would only last six months. It was the fog that protected us from Hitler, not our politicians.

  • Clive

    In August 2014 there was an opinion poll which asked people if they had any sympathy for Islamic State. Among 18-24 year-olds in Germany, it was 3-4%; in Britain it was 4%. In France it was 27%.

    http://www.newsweek.com/16-french-citizens-support-isis-poll-finds-266795

    These 18-24 year-olds are the problem group. They are the ones most likely to do something for IS, whether it’s go to join them or the kind of thing that happened in Paris. Interestingly, in other places where the poll was taken this figure dropped with age. In Britain, it got worse. So maybe we are reaching the hearts and minds of later generations, as Nigel Farage suggests we should.

    This is a problem of culture. Douglas Murray keeps on characterising it as a problem of religion and that is wrong and it will lead our intelligence and law enforcement people down the wrong track.

    Although these are Muslim groups they vary enormously because of the culture in which they originate. You would not think, for instance, that the Plymouth Brethren or the Amish were the same culture as you but they read the same Bible. Your everyday life and the beliefs by which you live it are different from a Plymouth Brother or member of the Amish but we are all ‘Christians’.

    Of course Douglas Murray and others will quote the Quran and say there you are – it’s a violent religion. So is Christianity. Jesus said we must regard every ‘jot and tittle’ of the Old Testament (Matthew 5:18, it’s why the Bible is the Bible and not just the New Testament).

    At the Battle of Badr, in Quran Surah 8:12 Mohammed said his army should ‘strike off their heads’ – he was talking about the enemy. In the Old Testament “[Joshua’s army killed everyone in Jericho], both men and women, young and old, oxen, sheep, and donkeys…. Joshua defeated the whole land… he left no one remaining, but utterly destroyed all that breathed, as the Lord God of Israel commanded.” (Joshua 6:21 and 10:40). What would a Muslim make of that ?

    German Muslims in 2014 were mostly Turkish in origin. They are probably the least problematic group because Turkey had a history of secularism. Britain’s Muslims are substantially from Pakistan. That is more dangerous because in North West Pakistan they have a conservative culture. That is why schools must be watched for the density of pupils from this culture and the type of teaching involved.

    French Muslims originated mostly in North Africa – places like Algeria; Tunisia; Morocco. There is some secularism in those places but an awful lot of Islamist culture as well. Algeria, in particular, went through a vicious colonial and post-colonial war.

    As far as possible, ghettoisation must also be limited because as the ghetto gets dense, practices at its cultural centre become less visible. That must be prevented in as unobtrusive a way as possible.

    Immigration should certainly lead to integration. It’s a two-way street as well – we can learn from immigrants. Asians in general – Indians; Pakistanis; Chinese, etc seem to me generally more entrepreneurial than europeans. They have more individuality, in many ways. Many would rather open their own business than be a cog in a wheel, for instance. Nothing wrong with that.

    So we have to be careful and we have to watch out for certain signs that are dangerous. The people who ran those schools that Ofsted reported on, for instance, did not appear to think they were doing much wrong.

    They were like conservative Catholics or Jews wanting their children to grow up in the same conservative ways. In many ways that could be applauded. It involves a lot of diligence; obedience to parents; hard work, etc. Things we admire. Unfortunately, in this type of culture it also leads to things we don’t want – particularly if the children see a slightly better way than their parents involving violence to what they see as the godless.

    There are, of course, other issues. Discrimination in work; social oppression that makes poverty. They will create problems in any group of people. The less anyone has invested in society, the more likely they are to disobey its ‘morality’, its laws. Why should they ? The society does little or nothing for them. So they will become progressively more embittered – F*ck ’em; hate them, kill them.

    • E.I.Cronin

      Farq Me!! across the globe the extremist strain inherent within Islam asserts itself and you write this? It’s nothing to do with religion!. Even the most secularised Muslim cultures have started to succumb – Erdogan dismantles Attaturks’ legacy. Indonesia where just a few decades ago few women wore the hijab is drifting towards increasing militancy and Aceh where Christian churches burn. Across the MENA where the only force suppressing the dormant tendency was brutal tyranny the strain emerges renewed. Douglas chronicles the horrors in France and apparently it’s godamn *discrimination at work* or – don’t make me gag – *social oppression*. A young woman got STONED fercrissakes – in Marseille. Clive you are intelligent and incredibly well-informed on so much else but THIS?

      Religion creates a culture that creates self-imposed discrimination and oppression:

      “I think sometimes they can aggravate the situation – not all imams, but let’s call them the more extreme, devout, literal interpretations of Islam – what they do is teach you to be more isolationist… They say don’t even shake hands with them, don’t even do this, don’t look at them, don’t meet with them. If you have non-Muslim friends then you might fall into
      the trap of becoming like them. There’s a problem with that. They are not preaching integration as a message.”

      http://www.dss.gov.au/our-responsibilities/settlement-and-multicultural-affairs/publications/social-civic-participation-of-australian-muslim-men

      So their clerics are telling them not to even look or TOUCH us and *society does little or nothing for them*? AAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRGHHHHHHHHHHH!!

      You must be kidding me. How many times does reality have to punch us in the face before we accept we’ve been hit. Don’t answer.

      • E.I.Cronin

        Excuse the excessive capitalisation Clive – it’s been a very emotional weekend. I’d better log off. If Mary Ann trundles in and cranks up her *I just want to hug Muslims to let them know it’s ok* shtick I will really bust a brain valve. You may see me in Speakers Corner looking dishevelled and wild-eyed. I’ll be the one encased in the wearable ”The End is Nigh” placard.

        • Mary Ann

          I just want to hug a Muslim, See you at Speakers Corner.

          • E.I.Cronin

            I have to laugh… you deserve an uptick.

          • jeremy Morfey

            So do I. They’d probably stone me if I did, especially if she was young, pretty and female, like my doctor friend from Iran, who’s safely and happily married off now. Or they’d stone her.

          • Clive

            They would stone her. One horrible development I noticed is that the Iranians are establishing the Basij in Syria.

        • Clive

          Well, I didn’t say it’s ‘nothing to do with religion’. I said …Although these are Muslim groups they vary enormously because of the culture in which they originate. You would not think, for instance, that the Plymouth Brethren or the Amish were the same culture as you but they read the same Bible. Your everyday life and the beliefs by which you live it are different from a Plymouth Brother or member of the Amish but we are all ‘Christians’… my bold

          So they are Muslims but Muslims are not a homogeneous group. You said yourself …across the globe the extremist strain inherent within Islam asserts itself… my bold. They are the extremist strain.

          There is no question but that they use the Quran to justify what they do. It still does not make them mainstream Muslims as you acknowledge with that ‘extremist strain’ line.

          The point above all is this. What are we going to do about it ? Are we going to kill or deport them all ? No.

          So we have to find a way to deal with them. My attitude is that they are people like me but it may not be your attitude. It does not matter. We can still have policies in common.

          So when Nigel Farage says we have to win the ‘hearts and minds’ of the Muslim community, I agree with him. I believe that much of the thwarting of attacks in this country has come about through information from the Muslim community. That should be encouraged.

          I also said …we have to be careful and we have to watch out for certain signs that are dangerous. The people who ran those schools that Ofsted reported on, for instance, did not appear to think they were doing much wrong…. I am sure you don’t disagree.

          We need to encourage the Muslim community to reject these outrages more than they do and many other things.

          These are principles that we need to engender. We also need to do things like spreading incoming Muslims around in groups of a few hundred so that they assimilate better and don’t form big ghettoes. I am sure you don’t disagree (except you’ll say they should not be coming at all, dream on).

          These are practical measures to protect our nation from Muslim extremism. They do not involve a torrent of hate directed at Muslims. Gratifying as it may be to its originators, it is not only useless but dangerous.

          Anyway, like I said, I believe the vast majority of those Muslims are just people like me.

          • hobspawn

            “I believe that much of the thwarting of attacks in this country has come about through information from the Muslim community. That should be encouraged.”

            Brilliant! We just need more muslims! Why didn’t I think of that? Classic leftlogic, like borrowing your way out of a debt crisis.

          • hobspawn

            “We need to encourage the Muslim community to reject these outrages more than they do and many other things.”

            When are you going to understand that these “outrages” are ordered by Allah in the Koran? You don’t even understand the Bible, and yet somehow you’re going to parachute into the caliphate of Molenbeek and get them to apostasize by singing the Red Flag, I suppose. You are the problem. This country is doomed.

          • hobspawn

            “Anyway, like I said, I believe the vast majority of those Muslims are just people like me.”

            …but not nearly as stupid. That’s Darwin, I suppose.

          • Alexsandr

            or endemic inbreeding.

          • E.I.Cronin

            Ethnicity and Religion are two of the most powerful bonds between people. We naturally gravitate towards each other. We can’t ship them in and legislate against them coming together for worship and recreation. Plus restricting freedom of movement within a country isn’t going to work. The frustrating thing is we could introduce discriminatory immigration within a week if we had the cultural will to survive.

            I believe we have several options available. The first that strikes me is publicly articulating in detail the religous doctrines that create conflict. Does May’s recent extremism strategy do this I wonder considering her recent statement? I doubt it somehow… We can’t even bring ourselves to do that so pervasive is this warped pc mindset. Voluntary repatriation schemes are another option. Welfare reform to get Muslim men and women into the workforce without giving them special rights for religous behaviours. Slashing the budgets for multicultural departments and refugee advocacy groups.

            Of course they are *people* just like us. Except they have highly discriminatory religous and cultural practices – time we implemented our own. I remember watching a youtube clip of a young lass from Luton aghast at the changes to her neighbourhood. She’s filmed trying to engage a bin-liner in an Islamist street rally. She starts by saying to the bin liner ”Why are you judging us? We don’t judge you, we don’t discriminate etc etc”. And the bin liner snaps back ”I AM judging YOU!” with total conviction. Sums it up really. We need to recapture our confidence and strength from relativism.

          • Clive

            I am not suggesting restricting movement or worship. Just that if you have groups in hundreds of thousands they become ghettos with their own mores. Better to have groups of hundreds or low thousands with a mosque but preferably not their own school, for instance.

            I certainly believe there should be some kind of public debate in the Muslim community about the theology behind this. Muslim scholars generally seem to treat the jihadist theological arguments as absurd yet they still cling to them. Something’s wrong.

            I don’t want discriminatory practices. I don’t want to alienate any part of our population. I want them on our side.

          • E.I.Cronin

            Sure Clive, but implementing strict legislation that clearly delineates what is and what isn’t acceptable will surelycreate a safer and more stable society. Discriminating between what is directly contrary and harmful to our cultural heritage (or what’s left of it) and safety is vital I believe. Your suggestion about not allowing schools for example is positive discrimination – making integration involuntary. . You’re right of course – it is wrong they cling to the line Jihadist ideology is ‘un-Islamic’. Considering the traditional punishments for apostasy or criticising the Quran it’s going to take great courage to speak out. Nawaz is doing an amazing job. We could make reform much easier by talking honestly and directly amongst ourselves. I think we will never agree on this particular issue as the alienation seems very self-imposed to me. When I found that quote in the DSS document the penny dropped. But there will always be varying interpretations.

          • Mr B J Mann

            You’re saying the problems arise because we have ghettos of HUNDREDS of THOUSANDS?!

            You’re saying the solution is simply to have ghettos of hundred OR thousands?!?!?!

            How do you think you get ghettoes of hundreds of thousands?!?!!!!!

          • Damaris Tighe

            I agree with you Clive that Muslims are not a monolithic group any more than Christians or Jews. The issue is, we on the outside (& that includes politicians) do not, cannot, understand the spectrum & nuances of belief within Islam. And they also change. Apparently some previously peaceful Sufi sects, which had concentrated on inner spiritual practice, have joined the race towards violent, supremicist fundamentalism. The Koran is a ticking time bomb & reforms towards peaceful interpretation can be temporary. Culture, social issues & personal psychopathology can all add to the terrifying brew, but at bottom the religious justification (the most powerful of all motivations) comes from the verses of the Koran – unsuperceded, un-reinterpreted.

            We should not have to deal with these issues in the first place. Beyond the problem of Islam is mass immigration. Muslims, or indeed any other group, should not be here in culture-changing numbers. We only have to become amateur theologians trying to sort the good from the bad because they are now very large communities within our homelands. Our leaders have wilfully imported a wholly alien fifth column. To point out that this doesn’t include all Muslims is missing the point.

          • Alexsandr

            you believe. i think you have to do better than that. like proof.
            where does their zakat go. is the muslim charity they give to syphoning money off to terrorists?
            would they report someone who they suspect of terrorism to the police?
            are they lying? lying is allowed in Islam to advance islam.

        • Damaris Tighe

          No probs Eric. Most of us are deeply depressed &/or incandescently angry at the irrevocable disaster that our elites are creating for us, & at the useful, ignorant idiots who defend their policies.

          • E.I.Cronin

            Thanks Damaris. People are speechless with fury and disgust out here – we can’t imagine being in the midst of it as you all are. The waiting and endless speculation doesn’t help but what else can we do?. Keep safe and take care.

      • Mr B J Mann

        Ha!

        This reminds me of a television discussion during which a “moderate” Musl!m was talking to someone on his right and the woman on his left tried to interject and attract his attention by tapping him on the arm: he almost flipped!

        I thought at the time it was on objection to a woman making physical contact with a man:

        But it nust have been a reaction to contact with dirty human cattle!

      • Cyril Sneer

        “Clive you are intelligent and incredibly well-informed on so much else”

        Lies.

        Aside from that, good post.

    • The_greyhound

      There is no equivalence at all between Christianity and Islam so your bone-headed repetitions only demonstrate that you don’t know what you are talking about.

      • Mary Ann

        Christianity and Islam are two branches of the same religion.

        • WFC

          Only in the same way that Scientology is a branch of science.

        • Germainecousin

          Sorry but you have confirmed your intellectual runt status with that comment. I do not believe you are a Mary Ann at all, more likely a Fatima.

          • Clive

            http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/islam/history/ibrahim.shtml
            …Abraham is considered to be neither a Jewish person, nor a Christian person nor a Muslim, but somebody who is a hernif – somebody who essentially and intrinsically knows that there is really only one God. And he is praised for this essential and innate yearning to discover the unity of God.

            There have been thousands of prophets and numbers of messengers but there are only four or five that have been designated a specific title according to Islam: Jesus is one,Moses is one and the Prophet Muhammad is one but also Abraham, who is known as a friend of God….

          • Richard

            I did called this “Mary Ann” individual, “Abdul”, earlier and there was no retort.

      • Clive

        http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/11906982/Fear-of-Muslims-tearing-British-society-apart-Welby.html
        Fear of Muslims has stirred up division between neighbours in Britain in a way not seen in living memory, the Archbishop of Canterbury has warned….

        …And while emphasising parallels between Christianity and Islam – including remarking that they share strikingly similar beliefs about the justification for war – he said it was important not to “gloss over” fundamental differences.

        He insisted that many faiths, not just Islam, have a problem with radicalisation.

        And, significantly, he said Christians should not deny “accountability” for the role of their faith in “many atrocities” over the centuries including recent decades…

        • Mr B J Mann

          Yup.

          And many church leaders, intellectuals and other “liberals” wouldn’t hear a word said against Stal!n.

          And even H!tler!

          The ones in th UK were the lucky ones:

          Many of their local supporters got shot!

          • Clive

            H|tler was brought up Catholic.

            http://www.churchinhistory.org/pages/leaf-sum/catholicsvnazis.htm
            …In February 1931, the German bishops excommunicated all active N@zi party members. This included H!tler. This penalty was not imposed on those who merely voted N@zi. It was hoped to persuade them by argument. The same policy was in operation against the Communists….

            Stalin was Orthodox but he was religious. The Catholic church abhorred communism because it was atheist, I don’t suppose they felt the need to single out Stalin.

          • Mr B J Mann

            Hitler was a Pagan and Stalin an atheist.

            Just because he realised he could use the opiate of the masses to his own advantage didn’t mean he’d returned to its fold, never mind that he’d never left it!

        • Cyril Sneer

          You quote the archbishop *facepalm*…. he’s more a progressive virtue signalling ‘let them all in’ lefty , than he is a representative of his religion.

        • Woman In White

          And, significantly, he said Christians should not deny “accountability”

          Also spracht the arch-banker.

    • Richard

      There have been many poor people in the history of the world. There were doubtless many poor Christians and Jews in Islamic countries in history . We have no evidence that any of them ever beheaded people or tried to kill them en masse. The Crusades is a different matter entirely, because that was was, the attempt to retake lands taken from the Christians by the Muslims.

      Islam is different because it teaches hatred on the unbeliever, and the Koran is filled with opprobrium for the unbeliever, and tells of how they must die. Islam also allows slavery in the current age in Africa.

      Voluntary repatriation is to be encouraged.

      • Clive

        Topically, the sans culottes of the French Revolution beheaded a great many people and they were called ‘sans culottes’ because they were poor, sans culotte approximately means ‘without trousers’.

        The Old Testament teaches, for instance, that worship of false idols is punishable by death. If someone formed ‘Christian State’ now and enforced that I am sure you would be horrified.

        • Richard

          So what happened in Israel between two and three thousand years ago means that what happens today in France, a secular state to which Muslims flock in order to have money, is identical? If somebody killed somebody else in a dispute over poaching in Kent a thousand years ago, does that mean it is acceptable in the modern age?

          And your previous comment was disingenuous. You know there is mass support in the UK among Muslims for killing in the name of religion, and for Shariah to be introduced in the UK.

          The dissembling and excuses the pro-Islamic Left like yourself uses are amazing. But then I suppose the Koran preaches a once-and-for-all message, so that is not surprising. The unbelievers are to be extirpated, and polytheists are pollution.

          • Clive

            Well, you can’t have it both ways. You said …Islam is different because it teaches hatred on the unbeliever, and the Koran is filled with opprobrium for the unbeliever, and tells of how they must die…. That was written more than a thousand years ago but you are saying Muslims are using it to justify their violence now. If they can (and they do), then anybody can.

            As for poor people rebelling, that’s hardly news. The Russians did it as well. They tended to shoot people though.

          • Richard

            Islam is unreformable. When last did you see Jews using stoning? When did you last see Christians stoning?

            Muslims use the Koran as their only moral input. The Russians did not rebel in order to impose Shariah on Russia. Those comments are disingenuous, like the others you made.

            But you know all these things. It is not possible to live in the modern world without knowing these things. You are like the Muslim I saw interviewed a day or two after the Paris killings who said it is the French who are the terrorists.

            Anyway, if you take your arguments to the Guardian/BBC, you’ll get a rousing reception.

          • Clive

            How do you know what Muslims use as their moral input ? Do you know what Christians use as their moral input ? I certainly don’t. They are a huge bunch of people. I would not presume to group them all together.

            The Russians rebelled in order to impose communism on Russia. In its atheism, communism is itself a form of religion.

            The point I was making was in response to your earlier comment …There were doubtless many poor Christians and Jews in Islamic countries in history . We have no evidence that any of them ever beheaded people or tried to kill them en masse…. Yes they did.

          • Richard

            That is not what any reading I have ever engaged in showed. “The Cross in the Shadow of the Crescent” does not report any incidents of Christians who, because they were poor, cut off the heads of Muslims.

          • Clive

            Well, you mentioned the Crusades. Those Christians – with the approval of the Pope – actually gutted Muslims to get at any valuables they had swallowed.

            The Crusades were largely undertaken by sons of families who were not going to inherit due to primogeniture.

          • Richard

            I mentioned the Crusades previously, as you saw. The Crusades were a war, like the war the Muslims engaged in to take control of all the territories they had invaded and occupied for Islam. Christianity arose in Israel, as you know. I don’t buy the Muslim perspective that the world only really began with Islam, and that Israel’s history only started then.

          • Clive

            The point is that the Crusades were promoted first by Pope Urban II in 1095. He told the Christian population of Europe:
            …On this account I, or rather the Lord, beseech you as Christ’s heralds to publish this everywhere and to persuade all people of whatever rank, foot-soldiers and knights, poor and rich, to carry aid promptly to those Christians and to destroy that vile race from the lands of our friends. I say this to those who are present, it meant also for those who are absent. Moreover, Christ commands it.

            “All who die by the way, whether by land or by sea, or in battle against the pagans, shall have immediate remission of sins. This I grant them through the power of God with which I am invested. O what a disgrace if such a despised and base race, which worships demons, should conquer a people which has the faith of omnipotent God and is made glorious with the name of Christ! With what reproaches will the Lord overwhelm us if you do not aid those who, with us, profess the Christian religion!…

            It authorised Christians to kill Muslims just because they were Muslims.

          • Mr B J Mann

            How many Centuries (Millenia?!) ago?

            And La Gulloine was banned in France

            It’s now 2015.

            You can’t argue that white 21st Century conservatives MUST accept that that HAVE to live in your 21st Century “liberal” world where it is a crime to even disagree with women, g-ys, or Musl!ms.

            Where it’s considered wrong to amuse yourself by going clu bbing:

            On the coast of Canada, never mind throw a donkey off a tower.

            And in the same breath demand that they accept. (and respect) millions of people who st0ne women and g-ys and throw people, never mind donkeys, off buildings?!

            And the fact it’s not all of the is irrelevant.

            It wasn’t the whole of Christianity that went on the Crusades, or even all Frenchmen that ran the Terror!!!

          • Clive

            Nor is it all Muslims who commit these atrocities.

            You may not have noticed it but I am not a fan of PC.

            It’s just that I start from the place that all people are pretty much alike – regardless of religion. Of course their upbringing changes them but not so much they will murder people.

            We have nutters in our midst and we have an Islamic State / Al Qaeda propaganda machine sucking up young people and spitting out more nutters.

            We have to deprogram these nutters and find ways to identify them early so that they do not harm us.

          • Mr B J Mann

            Sorry, but you can’t have it both ways.

            You can’t say you start from the place that all people are pretty much alike – regardless of religion.

            And in the next sentence assert that of course their upbringing changes them.

            And in the same breath claim but not so much they will murder people.

            Then go on to say that we have an Islamic State / Al Qaeda propaganda machine sucking up young people and spitting out more nutters.

            You are saying we have our own nutters, importrd nutters and imported people who have been programmed into nutters by religious propaganda.

            Yet you start from the place that all people are pretty much alike – regardless of religion?!?!?!!!!

          • Richard

            In 1095, yes, not 2015.

            That is the issue with Muslims such as yourself: you start arguing from around 700AD, with whatever happened then as current as what is happening now. That is why with Islam, there can never be peace.

          • Mr B J Mann

            Richard -> Clive
            2 days ago
            In 1095, yes, not 2015.

            That is the issue with Muslims such as yourself:

            —-

            Telling that he dare not renounce his religion!

            He’s usually so quick to argue points!

          • Woman In White

            The Muslims of that period engaged in deliberate, organised genocide — a minority of Crusaders committed some war crimes.

          • hobspawn

            “Islam is unreformable. When last did you see Jews using stoning? When did you last see Christians stoning?”

            Christianity has never been for stoning. It didn’t need reform to get there.

          • Richard

            I meant the continuity from Judaism. I could have used burnings, too, but for the sake of brevity used that example.

          • Mr B J Mann

            Teaches Teaches taught are not the same thing.

            Neither are can and do.

        • hobspawn

          “The Old Testament teaches, for instance, that worship of false idols is punishable by death. If someone formed ‘Christian State’ now and enforced that I am sure you would be horrified.”

          You definitely haven’t understood the Bible.

      • Sue Smith

        Forget it; the horse has bolted. More significantly, they come to a western country to find they have “rights” and nobody – not anybody – is going to take those away from them!! Our men fought and died for those ‘rights’ and the irony is that aliens are going to claim them.

        Rights are something new for muslims coming from the countries that they do.

    • hobspawn

      You haven’t understood the Bible.

      • Woman In White

        For once, I agree with you.

        • Sanctimony

          Big of you !

          • Woman In White

            small of you to carry on stalking

  • ViolinSonaten b minor.

    Saddam Hussein said the best way to defeat the West is to move into their countries and out- breed them, the conquest of the womb. Maybe a little more subtle then suicide bombers but the aim is the same. These people are not immigrants, they add nothing economically, socially and morally to
    our societies. They never integrate onto our societies, just living in ghettos of little mecca wherever
    that maybe. Why must France keep on tolerating the intolerant.
    And I hear France will take in more Syrian refugees at the same time as bombing Syria, I just don’t
    quite understand the logic of that, indeed bomb Syria but it’s a bit like the UK bombing Germany
    and Churchill taking in millions of Nazis. What is that man thinking.

    • The_Missing_Think

      “Why must France keep on tolerating the intolerant.”
      _____

      Because white people have been race duped.

      The policy quoted below, is the sort of policy that is needed, not more sand wars creating more ‘refugees’.

      And if you froth and spitte-fleck rejecting racial parity with Jews, then you’re still race duped, and will require yet further nose rubbings until you sane up the hard way, take your pick, true racial equality, or a very sore ‘nose’.

      “The Prime Minister’s Office confirmed that many Jews from the FSU who were born out-of-wedlock can be required to bring DNA confirmation of Jewish heritage in order to be allowed to immigrate as a Jew.”

      http://www.timesofisrael.com/russian-speakers-who-want-to-immigrate-could-need-dna-test/

      • Clive

        What race are we supposed to be ? I mean, what would they test the DNA for ?

        • The_Missing_Think

          If Jews can test for Jew DNA code, all races can do the same.

          • Clive

            I don’t think so. I think the Jews have a bit of an edge there because of their very particular history.

            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_studies_of_Jewish_origins

          • The_Missing_Think

            As nomads for thousands of years, the exact opposite is true, whereas, an ancient people with a natural barrier, 20 miles at the narrowest, will be far less diluted, due to the choices available.

            Either way it’s irrelevant, as the same test could be carried out, but the reverse decision taken. (out not in).

          • Clive

            Ah, you simply want to keep Jews out.

            I don’t.

          • The_Missing_Think

            I’d have thought a thoroughly decent anti-racist like yourself, wouldn’t want to keep any races out, in exactly the same capacity?

            Are you saying you want to keep some races out, more than others?

            You got a list handy?

          • mdj
          • Mr B J Mann

            It’s always interesting to see the reviews chosen to publicise a book.

            In this case there are Tony Judt a Marxist former Z!onist,

            Eric Hobshawm, the infamous Marxist of J=wish extraction writing in the Observer,

            Another review in the Observer, and two more in the Independent and Independent on Sunday,

            Oh, and one in the Weekly Worker!

            Plus, for “balance”, Max Hastings, who is thought of as a right whinger, but if you read him he’s pretty liberal lefty.

          • Mr B J Mann

            Wandering slightly off topic, I came across this when checking out Tony Judt.

            It’s from the New York Review of Books where they publish a letter commenting on something he’d written and his reply, which I found amusing:

            Knowledge vs. Pedantry

            http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/2010/sep/30/knowledge-vs-pedantry/

            Sam Abrams, reply by Tony Judt

            September 30, 2010 Issue………..

            Before his death on August 6, Tony Judt replied as follows:

            [As though people expect the New York Review of Books to use Ouija Boards as well as Email?!]

            Like most people of your kind………..

            At the “fancy school” I attended (my education cost precisely nothing from the age of five to twenty-four: what about yours?) I was taught Latin, but also how to distinguish between knowledge and pedantry. I am glad to say that forty years later I can still smell the difference at fifty yards.

            I can just see him trying to type one handed while holding his nose with the other!

            And, typically of people of his kind, he though that education through to, no doubt, a doctorate, costs precisely nothing?!?!?!

            No doubt he was educated under the open skies, in a field, by volunteers, without the benefit of books, or even chalk!!!!!!!

          • mdj

            Sand, a professor of history has recently announced his wish to ‘resign’ from being defined as a Jew, because of the inescapable contradictions it involves and, as an Israeli citizen, aligning him with oppressions that appal him. It’s been interesting to see how the Zionist project has morphed over the years from being regarded – within and without- as largely left-inspired, to a xenophobic militaristic, right-wing movement. His book is erudite, and at times sardonic; it is well worth reading, and I would be curious to know if anyone has formally replied to it.

        • Richard

          Presumably some evidence of Jewish ancestry? If Israel’s immigration policy is to admit people of Jewish ancestry, that is what they are looking for. Something like this occurs forbidding non-Muslims from visiting Mecca.

      • Richard

        I think, if you look at Labour policy from its victory in 1945, you will note that they began importing Third World people as soon as they could. I don’t think there was any Jewish involvement there, though perhaps you know otherwise? Tony Blair likewise opened the gates as widely as he could, as statistics show. That there were Jews involved in the Left, and Bolshevism, is undeniable. That they were the only ones, is untrue.

      • Penny

        Israel has a 20% Arab population. Some are Christian; some are Muslim. The Bahai temple is in Haifa. You can hear the call to prayer and church bells across the country. Israel may be majority Jewish, but it isn’t solely Jewish. The confirmation of Jewish heritage simply allows “aliyah” – a right to emigrate. That does not mean others cannot emigrate or become residents; is simply means there isn’t a “right”

        • The_Missing_Think

          “That does not mean others cannot emigrate or become residents; is simply means there isn’t a “right””
          _____

          Sounds great. That’ll do.

    • Mary Ann

      You write as if all Germans are Nazis and all Muslims are terrorists. The Syrian refugees are running away from violence.

      • ViolinSonaten b minor.

        And amongst the refugees are ISIS sleepers, are France expected to play
        Russian Roulette with the lives of their citizens. Oil rich Arab countries could have taken in these refugees. Europe forgetting the risks to life ( if forgetting
        that issue is even possible) hasn’t to space to rehome an entire continent
        or two. Europe isn’t the Tardis.

        • Mr B J Mann

          Did you see the documentary about IS!S training children to be J!hadis?!

          And I mean kids: primary school kids being forced to kick and beat seven bells out of each other to brutalise and dehumanise them!

          Nursery age kids practicing beheading their teddies!!

          And tweenagers helping out with the real thing!!!

          And being taught to inform on their parents if they aren’t loyal to !SiS!!!!

          I wonder how many of those are among the refugees?

          Or with already settled families?!?!!!!

          • ViolinSonaten b minor.

            No I didn’t but it doesn’t surprise me. A creed of hate and destruction from one generation to the next. When they hate humanity so much that they’d sacrifice little children for their
            for their evil sect then you know there isn’t any hope.
            And yes they are certainly amongst the refugees.

      • stuartMilan

        True enough. the Rotherham rape gangs weren’t terrorists, and neither are the Sharia patrols that operate in the UK. I’m certain too that the people organising the Trojan Horse schools are very nice people indeed. If we could only find in our hearts to play nice, we can all live happily together in our infantilised march to the destruction of our country and its civil society.

        But seriously: how much more evidence do you need? Honestly, how big does the elephant have to get? And what possible virtue can there be in waiting until it’s too late?

      • Teacher

        That is irrelevant. You can take the family from Syria but you can’t take Syria from the family. These people are bringing Islam with its fatalism, misogyny, medieval mindset and eastern customs inimical to the west with them. As we have seen in every western country in which muslims have settled they do not all integrate which causes massive social problems up to and including terrorism for the host country.

        • Sue Smith

          What Teacher says is correct. It’s the values which are so at odds with the western world which concern people the most.

          Over generations, of course, this will slowly change but right now many people are asking WHY liberal democratic nations need these huge problems of ghettos and violence and medieval cultural practices when they have already got enough domestic problems to deal with. It’s a terrible additional burden on the societies at a time when financially it is less able to be borne.

      • William_Brown

        Not all Germans were Nazi’s – you’re right, of course. Unfortunately they would all shoot to kill on the battlefield.

      • Germainecousin

        What part of reality are you struggling to grasp. This is not about bad muslims. Most people on this site will happily tell you about individual very good ones they know. The problem is the creed, when push comes to shove it will be islam or western values. Keep in mind how easy it is for muslims to whip up a crowd to protest about cartoons etc and how slow they are to come out in significant numbers when individual muslims do evil deeds.

      • Sue Smith

        If you look closely at most of the comments you’ll find that this isn’t the case. I haven’t ready any suggestion that German’s are Nazis. I like the German people, having spent time in that country and befriending some of them. They’re rather like the Americans, though; a bit insular with no real knowledge of what happens beyond their borders. And they’re so busy expiating guilt that will take any individual from anywhere in the world to prove their not vile like their forebears. Well, I don’t need convincing because the sins of the father are not those of the children.

      • Mr B J Mann

        Violence in Turkey? Greece?! Italy?!?!

        And Italy can accomodate 18 MILLION “refugees” before it will even begin to match the population density of the UK, never mind England!

        France vastly more!!!

      • Mr B J Mann

        Not all berries and mushrooms are killers:

        But you have to be an idiot not to try to make sure even one isn’t a killer!

        And how many motorists who creep over 30 are killers?!

        And yet we demonise them and cover the country with cameras so that we can deprive them of their freedoms and human rights!!!

    • victor67

      You are the flip side of the same coin as ISIl. You and you ilk are a gift to them.

      • ViolinSonaten b minor.

        You mean as opposed to those who support Corbyn and his ilk ?
        A supporter despots, don’t shoot a terrorist to kill.
        disband our nuclear deterrent insult the military and allow more refugees in, don’t attack terrorists.
        Just hug them singing Kumbaya, I see what you mean Victor.

        • Mary Ann

          The is a happy medium, Don’t blame all Muslims for the sins of a few, and shoot to kill terrorists, unless you can catch them without harming anyone else, they might have useful information.

          • The_greyhound

            Few?

            It isn’t as if there were a population of moslems we could be happy to have. Islamification is all bad news.

          • Richard

            You know that a very large percentage of Muslims support the idea of killing for the sake of religion, and want Shariah in the UK. They may not actually do the killing, but most are happy for others to do their dirty work for them.

          • Sue Smith

            Would you invite somebody into your home who had Ebola just because nobody else did?

            Answer the question, please.

          • Mr B J Mann

            Do you also agree that we should scrap speed cameras and Iimits (and red light cameras) and only punish drivers who actually kill or maim?

            And what about quarantine laws?!

          • Mary Ann

            I’m sorry you cannot see an advantage in keeping some terrorists alive to gain information about other terrorists, and stop further crimes, it sounds like common sense to me. Why on earth should we stop punishing those who choose to break the law, speed limit laws are there to protect us all. as for quarantine laws, why should anyone want to break them, with the new rabies jabs for pets you only have to wait 3 weeks from the time they are vaccinated. Bit of topic aren’t you.

          • Mr B J Mann

            Where did I say I cannot see an advantage in keeping some terrorists alive to gain information about other terrorists, and stop further crimes?b

            Or deny it sounds like common sense to me?!?!

            But you seem to be saying you’d be happy fining people and banning pedestrians for walking on the cracks in the pavement!

            After all it’s far safer to step on the middle of the slabs!!

            And makes pavements last longer and stay safer!!!

            It’s also safer to close our borders and shoot interlopers.

            The speed limits are arbitrary artificial administrative edicts that, policed the way they currently are, actually make the roads more dangerous.

            As for being off topic:

            What is the philosophical difference (or lack of common sense) between quarantining animals (and we do the same with people) because one might have rabies, and denying entry to immigrants as some might be terrorists?!?!

          • Mary Ann

            So you agree with me, about the sense in keeping some of them alive. Stopping migration is allowing Daesh to win the propaganda war, so is hating all those Muslims who are not terrorists, anyway it would probably be more effective to take down the internet and block all phone calls, most terrorists seem to be recruited in their home countries.

          • Mr B J Mann

            Errrrrm you’re arguing from the standpoint that borders should be open and closing them is some kind of admission of defeat.

            You’ve got that completely the wrong way round.

            No change there then.

            Try getting into an Arab country without a visa, never mind without a passport!

          • Mr B J Mann

            In fact, do you also support the repeal of gun controls and a return to the days when gun ownership was widespread, but gun k!llings rare?!

            Especially as the only real threat is from the miniscule number of drug users and Musl!ms who are deranged?!?!?!!!!

    • jeremy Morfey

      Churchill did take in a whole army of Poles though, who fought valiantly on our side during the war. I believe Poland was a province of Greater Germany at the time.

      Not that the Poles were that reverential of our culture. My own experience of meeting a group of them at Heathrow during a cultural exchange in 1978 was their first question “Please, you take us to sexparty?”. I had my work cut out trying not to get them arrested during their stay. It seemed the leather satchel they were jealously guarding contained bottles of 96% rectified spirit – “Polish lemonade” they called it. It was on a trip to Blandford Forum that I discovered their treasure trove, because they were hawking it around the wine merchants hoping to earn some hard currency. The old-fashioned proprietor never really caught on, and they ended up giving it to a bunch of Glaswegian lads who made the catastrophic error of boasting to the Poles about their drinking prowess.

      However, no real harm done, and all the Glaswegians survived their encounter.

      The point I am making is that we always need to assess the risk of importing culture.

    • flipkipper

      We know you don’t understand logic. You only do the logic of a common housewife.
      Since when is every Syrian refugee fleeing a war zone a terrorist?
      You are out of your depth and you are out of your mind.

      • Cyril Sneer

        Since when is every ‘Syrian’ refugee a Syrian and fleeing a war zone?

        • Woman In White

          This.

      • Mr B J Mann

        Is every pet coming into the country a rabies carrier?

        So why do we quarantine them?

        Is every berry or mushroom or stranger dangerous?

        If not, why do we teach our children to avoid them all!?

        Is every motorist doing over 30 a killer?

        If not why do we demonise them and go to such lengths to catch them and punish them?

        Unless, of course, they are refugees without a licence, tax , insurance or MOT!

  • Chingford Man

    Standpoint did a feature some years ago by the wife of a Birmingham vicar with her own story about living in a Muslim enclave from which the authorities had more or less withdrawn.

    • chesters

      Standpoint magazine has been very good on all this, with many excellent articles , some from ‘decent’ leftists such as David Goodhart and Nick Cohen, and feminists like Julie Bindel, Christians (Michael Nazir Ali) And it is pro-Jewish. So that won’t go down well with Guardian types.

  • A Simple Guest

    listen to Hungary PM Orban

    ”EU elite are traitors”

    • Fraser Bailey

      Well, we’ve known that for many years.

    • stuartMilan

      with Merkel having opened this ghastly Pandora’s box, Orban is just about the only PM ready to do right by his own people. what on earth is it going to take for a similar figure to become PM of Britain?

      • Sue Smith

        Dunno. But what I DO know is that Cameron will continue with that asinine look on his face as though it’s “business as usual”.

        • stuartMilan

          yes. his lack of substance is distressingly evident

          • Sue Smith

            I’ll be honest; I’d always liked and admired him, until recently. He’s like the proverbial ostrich with his head buried in the sand and it’s an anachronism. The world has changed and the mood of the people is now extremely volatile since the ‘invasion’ of refugees into Europe. Yes, that’s been a deal-breaker.

        • stuartMilan

          any other course of action would involve him Having To Actually Discharge The Responsibilities Of Being Prime Minister

  • Solar

    How appalling a prospect that our countries may slide into the darkness of Muslim ideology. No freedom for young men and women to meet. No drinking and chat in bars. No women at any public event. No music. A dead economy, killed by the discrimination against women, over population and Islam’s discomfort with modernity. No wonder millions took the Syrian crisis as an excuse to bail out of their miserable countries. The sad irony is that most of them aren’t prepared to leave the cultural habits behind that caused them to leave in the first place.

    • Teacher

      Fatwa. Sharia. Burkha. Jihad. Honour culture. Favours culture. Inherent misogyny. FGM. Izzat. None of it around as I grew up.

      • Mary Ann

        When I left school in the 60s I couldn’t get half the interesting jobs because I didn’t have the right male appendage. Half the things you mention are not peculiar to Islam either.

        • Pioneer

          Islam is your future, Mary Ann.

          • Genie Balham

            S’not mine….

        • Mr B J Mann

          Even if you’re telling the truth that was half a century ago.

          When did Thatcher leave school?!?!?!!!!

          Ever considered your problems might have stemmed from the fact that half a century later you still think like a schoolgirl politician?!

        • Guilttripjunkie

          Woman’s rights in sixties Britain were far greater than that of Muslim woman today. You had a choice who you could marry and were not prevented from working. You were also unlikely to have been ‘bartered’ in some type of medieval style arranged marriage.

          Progressive secular democratic values which have improved women’s rights since the sixties, are under threat from Islamic conservatism.

        • Genie Balham

          I’ve had lots of interesting jobs. Mech Eng and lots of computing skills – no worries for employment, no bar because of my gender.

        • milford

          You left school in the sixties? From your posts I thought you were about 22 tops.

  • Margot5000

    This could be said to have started some 30 years ago with the affair of the Bradford headmaster. The rubbish that was said then has continued ever since. It should have been made clear to immigrants quite clearly what the law was here – that it was not a cherry picking matter. Mainly for PC and fear of racism accusations some parts of the population have been allowed to literally get away with murder (honour killings). Now it has reached the point that everyone knows that you can stand in the middle of any large city and shout what you like about almost any subject OTHER THAN ISLAM, whereas a Muslim can get away with not just incitement to kill comments but even actions that for any other section of the populations would see them in jail faster than you can say the words. What was needed was an equal playing field for everyone – or where there was going to be inequality (Sikh turbans, burkas) for it to be talked right through.

    • Wildflowers

      He views were correct then and are even more pertinent today. It was shameful that he was ignored and vilified for telling the truth.

      Read it and weep.

      http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/3654888/Education-and-Race-an-Alternative-View.html

      • Richard

        I remember somebody who worked in a managerial position at the BBC in those days saying that the BBC’s job was to protect blacks by not reporting news that put blacks in a negative light.

    • Guest 1

      We must prepare to resist:

      https://www.facebook.com/generationidparis/

      This Is Our Homeland! On Est Chez Nous!

    • Germainecousin

      I, as a committed Catholic had no objections to my children’s school, teaching world religions (although it did strike me as pointless, I mean it was a Catholic school after all) However, they did not teach world religions, they taught 95% islam. A child had the audacity to ask about sharia punishments and was treated as if he had said an obscenity. As is my right, I withdrew my children from RE and the headteacher subjected me to a lecture and a certain amount of sneering. It is a Catholic school and the head told me that no other parent had objected to the islamic bias but some did take issue with the Christian feast days being observed. At the time, I think there might have been one muslim in the school. As others have stated, we are not being invaded, we are handing our beautiful, long fought for, heritage, over to a class of barbarians.

      • jeremy Morfey

        Have I got this right? When teaching world religions, a Catholic school taught 95% about Islam?

        Since Catholicism is a world religion, I would have expected more than 5% of the curriculum to be dedicated to Catholic instruction. It is in my parish school.

        • Genie Balham

          Yes – and where was Buddhism, Hinduism, Taoism, Shintoism, Jainism etc etc etc……
          What is the intake of this catholic school?

    • milford

      I was going to say Vote UKIP but there’s no point. Our voting system is so rigged no matter how many votes they get they can’t get into parliament. This is no longer a democracy.

      • Genie Balham

        No its still important. UKIP is holding its own (no one else will – ho ho ho) Oldham by-election soon. That should be interesting. Not just for the result, but for how it is all managed……

    • Gilbert White

      R. Honeyford you refer to? An ordinary man who gave his all for his community. Cumberbatch’s coloureds and the white devils involved should be identified today and shamed?

  • Murti Bing

    The right of any indigenous people is to feel safe in their own country and to know that the law will protect them should they become the victim of crime. The consequent responsibility of any indigenous people is to abide by the law and respect the governing institutions, though not to the extent of placing them above criticism. How many indigenous European populations currently feel safe in their own countries? Do the French feel safe in France? Do the Germans feel safe in Germany? Do we feel safe at home? Though, by and large, we abide by the law and support our institutions, do we really feel confident that they will stand by us in the event of any wrong done to us? Do we really feel they understand the threat we are currently living under?

    In the past fifteen years, at least, it has become clear that we, indigenous Europeans, are not safe in our own lands. We know who threatens us, but each time they attack us we are told to remain quiet and accept their differences, and we are admonished for being responsible for their grievances, which is effectively a form of appeasement. This situation cannot continue.

    To be clear, this has nothing to do with Iraq, nothing to do with Syria and nothing to do with any other grievance in the Middle East. It has everything to do with Islam in Europe. Unless we focus on this single issue, Europe will cease to be a safe home for non-muslim people, and that is a spine-chilling truth.

    • Teacher

      I do not feel safe and I fear for my daughter who works in Central London. She has had to extend her already long commute to take another Tube line so she doesn’t have to alight at Oxford Circus.

      • Sue Smith

        I feel for you; it’s the same in Australia. My son works in the Prime Minister’s office in central Sydney and Canberra!! I worry every day, even though they have security beefed up 1,000 percent. It’s central Sydney itself which worries me.

  • Joe Long

    “Of course, it is important to remember how many Muslims in France and Britain came here precisely to avoid the fundamentalists in their faith.”

    A relatively small proportion – in Birmingham the largest group were originally economic migrants from Mirpur. As they inter-marry pretty much within their own narrow group, generally within their extended family any talk of integration is completely and utterly fatuous. Plus of course culturally they are pretty much incompatible as well.

    Malignant symptoms were bound to appear, and they have

    The lihadis as mentioned by Murray -wannabe suicide bombers collected money quite openly in Sparkbrook; Green Lane Mosque, exposed by C4, along with the Islamic school on the Coventry Road; the grooming epidemic suppressed by WMP because of “community cohesion”; the massive exercises in electoral fraud; Trojan Horse – the precursor of Talibanisation

    No one can say they have not been warned

    “Another preacher says: ‘The time is fast approaching where the tables are going to turn and the Muslims are going to be in the position of being uppermost in strength and, when that happens, people won’t get killed – unjustly.'”

    http://www.theguardian.com/media/2007/jan/07/broadcasting.channel4

    Given the demographics this can only get worse, it is a colonisation event which has been compared to the onset of the Dark Ages(Rear Admiral Parry/Niall Ferguson)

    • Guest 1

      Europe needs identity politics:

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B4e7n7g1xAM&index=5&list=FL-nj2foVHt52zPuh0TdAiiw

      It’s our Homeland we’re talking about here.

      • William_Brown

        It’ll take more than four or five kids, indulging in brave talk – The politicians have to be convinced, or threatened by electoral removal, before anything will change.

        • Guest 1

          They’re not just a few ‘kids’ indulging in brave talk – over 1,000 Austrian GIs demonstrated in Spielfeld last Saturday, and here’s Parisian GI two weeks ago:
          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BC5UN1WTgCI
          I disagree on it being an electoral struggle alone. What the government parties fear is disorder and rebellion by the people they betray every day, currently with the migration-invasion insanity. It needs resistance I every way possible.

        • Sue Smith

          Have you noticed Hollande has ratcheted things up a few notches – he’s now fighting for his very political survival. He’s got the shocked mien of somebody who “couldn’t imagine” anything like that happening in France.

          Isn’t this a MAJOR part of the problem in the European polity?

          • milford

            Nobody could be that naïve. And politicians? Aren’t they supposed to know stuff? If they don’t, why do we elect them to protect us? When I was 12 I knew that Islam proselytised it’s faith through war. If he’d listened to Farage it wouldn’t have happened. I think he wants war, it’s good for (the arms) trade.

          • Woman In White

            Have you noticed Hollande has ratcheted things up a few notches – he’s now fighting for his very political survival

            Quite apart from the fact that he’s been fighting for his political survival since the day Chirac was elected President, Hollande made a formal declaration of war against ISIS.

            Sometimes, y’know, the Président de tous les Français is actually required to do his work as it’s advertised, without partisanism.

          • Sanctimony

            Thank you for your extremely perspective insight into French politics… Was that a result of your third PhD in PPE at the University of Surrey ?

          • Woman In White

            You are an idiot.

    • Clive

      A big problem – and I am not sure if it’s been addressed – is imams who don’t speak English.

      https://www.asianexpress.co.uk/2013/11/out-dated-imams-doing-more-harm-than-good/
      …The cleric was highly critical of UK mosques for failing to understand young Muslims raised in Britain and said a main factor was that most import foreign imams who cannot speak English and focus only on religious rituals.

      Mr Ali, who has been the Prison Service’s adviser for eight-and-ahalf- years, said: “Most will get imams imported from other countries who can’t speak English. More importantly they can’t relate to second and third-generation youngsters growing up here.

      “It is a tragedy. I have seen youngsters, the next generation, just totally switch off from it. This is dangerous. It allows others to take advantage, to take up the vacuum.”…

      • Joe Long

        I’m far from convinced that there lots of liberal UK Muslims who could fill these roles

        “They should not have. Islam in Britain is dominated by a very specific, and rather illiberal, version of the faith — one that, if anything, seems to be becoming more conservative over time.

        As the Muslim population became more established, one might have assumed that a westernised form of Islam would have come to dominate Britain’s mosques. According to a database of British Islam, however, only two out of 1,700 mosques in Britain follow modernist interpretations of the Koran.”

        https://spectator.com.au/2014/06/who-runs-our-mosques/

        If anything the younger ones seem more hard-line eg the Beggs father and son, from bank manager to Islamist in 2 generations.

        If you are a Pakistani Muslim, growing up in Alum Rock say, hemmed in by the walls of a mental and physical ghetto – indoctrinated at an after school madrassa – then what rational grounds are there for supposing that you are going to turn out like Justin Welby?

        • Clive

          According to an opinion poll from August 2014, the UK Muslim population becomes more sympathetic to IS as the age is greater. 4% in 18-24 year-olds; 11% in older groups.

          I interpret that as meaning that we are ‘converting’ second generation Muslims from the conservatism of places like North West Pakistan where many of their parents may have come from.

          That is in contrast to Germany where the percentage is much the same all the way through the population (3 to 4%) and France where 18-24 year-olds are 27% in favour of IS.

          http://www.newsweek.com/16-french-citizens-support-isis-poll-finds-266795

        • milford

          Apparently that’s because Saudi Arabia is financing all these mosques and schools to promote Wahhabiism, which is the most hard-line form of Islam.

          • Genie Balham

            Most of the mosques in the UK are deobandi, i.e. pakistan/banglasdesh. There is a lot of P/B money here from wealthy patrons in their home-land. But they are also happy to take Saudi money and import saudi imams and scholars. The deobandi school is pretty strict anyway but the Saudi influence has hardened attitudes and raised hopes.

          • milford

            I’m living in Birmingham for work at the moment. I was an innocent coming from London (never come across this stuff there). My first run-in with them was when a car with six of them inside deliberately made me crash into them. The driver couldn’t speak a work of English (so how did he read the road signs?) They all claimed for whiplash, loss of earnings etc. A good day’s work for them, hassle, trauma and loss of my no claims bonus for me. It’s been dubbed ‘crash-for-cash’ and has put everyone’s insurance premiums up to pay for them to build houses in Pakistan. That’s just one small example of how they’re destroying the UK. Birmingham is full of houses burned to the ground. They buy a house, burn it to the ground, claim the insurance and do it up like a Sultan’s palace. That put’s our house insurance premiums up too. A Pakistani taxi driver pointed out a luxury car hire company to me and told me the Pakistani owners had opened it with heroin money.
            We need to start differentiating between Pakistani Muslims and those from other cultures because there are major differences. BTW what’s ‘deobandi’?

    • Sue Smith

      Niall Ferguson is an absolutely champion!!!

    • Roger Hudson

      People avoid fundamentalists by integration not by ‘multiculturalism’.

    • milford

      Michael Gove tried to take on the Islamic schools and was replaced pronto. Now that investigation’s on the back-burner, and yet when a Grammar School was opened in Kent the press acted like a massive threat to society had been unleashed. Madness.

  • Teacher

    My husband went into London to oversee a mini conference and he said that the whole time he was there the only white people he saw and the only people he heard speaking English were the five delegates, the presenter and himself who had all travelled in by train.

    Am I alone in finding this truly terrifying?

    • Guest 1

      It’s called colonization. Time for Europe to resist that process. Those bringing it about are our ‘leaders’. Stop voting for them is a first step. And resisting in every little way is a second step.

    • Observer1951

      What was the conference about?

    • Sue Smith

      This is precisely why I, myself, family and friends actively avoid London. We will never travel there ever again.

    • milford

      No you’re not. I went to a park in Birmingham at Easter weekend with my grandchildren. We were among a very small white minority but we were the only family speaking English as the other whites were Polish, I think. The park was chock full of foreigners of all types. Some seem friendly-ish – but a lot don’t. Some terrified-looking people probably from a post-communist hell-hole were trying to get their son to go on the slide, He’d obviously never seen a slide before and was absolutely petrified. The overwhelming atmosphere was of mutual distrust, fear and paranoia. As someone above said, the UK is finished.

  • multifinlayson

    Syrian refugees spilling into Europe will bring their sectarian hatreds with them. They are not coming from open societies, but from autocratic cultures where the lid kept them together. Remove the lid, all forms of sectarian murder gushes forth, as we have seen. Bringing them into Europe will only inject more xenophobia, religious hatred, sectarianism, non-democratic thinking and a high tolerance of censorship, corruption and the absence of the rule of law into these lands. It’s good news for refugees, but bad news for Europe, which ever way you look at it.

    • Richard

      The ones the Syrians all seem to hate, ISIS or not, are Jews. When they start targeting Jews, as they will, that will open up a whole other dimension.

      • jeremy Morfey

        I didn’t think the Syrian Daesh targeted Jews; they’re too busy targeting Syrians. All the Israelis need do is to watch on with amusement muttering “bring it on”. For as long as the Syrians are pushed into Germany or Sweden, they can hardly launch rocket attacks in a vain attempt to win back the Golan Heights.

        • Richard

          As I said, whether ISIS or not. Syria has, since the times of the Assyrians, been partial to Jew-killing and hatred.

        • Woman In White

          I didn’t think the Syrian Daesh targeted Jews

          That is a very bisarre supposition — their hatred of Jews surpasses all other considerations.

          • Sanctimony

            It is indeed bisarre !

          • Woman In White

            How many legs have you pulled off how many flies today, Moany ?

          • Sanctimony

            ‘Muscas… perhaps….

          • Woman In White

            Did you feed them to your pet mouse that you confuse for an elephant ?

            Go away, you ghastly obnoxious troll !!!

          • jeremy Morfey

            Where’s the evidence of this?

            Considering the bile rained down on Israel from Egypt, Syria, Palestine and Lebanon, and the ripe curses coming out of Tehran, Daesh attacks on Israel in comparison have been feather-like, and vice-versa.

            I believe the official line is that Israel is “the Land of the Jews” and to be left alone while they get on with reverting the rest of the world. After all, Abraham’s Kaaba is about all that there is left, spared by Saudi Wahhabis, of ancient Mecca, and Abraham’s people have their own place in the scheme of things, separate from other kuffar. They can deal with the Jews later.

            I really don’t know what Netanyahu stands to gain from this in the long run – maybe he’s calculating that they’ll all exhaust or slaughter each other, and the lands around then are ripe for the taking. Pity about the collateral damage in Europe, but hey – the Jews there can always leave and settle in Greater Israel when it gets really hot, and Daesh would probably let them through.

          • Woman In White

            Where’s the evidence of this?

            http://www.jewishpress.com/news/breaking-news/isis-warns-jews-in-hebrew-youre-next-to-be-slaughtered-video/2015/10/23/

            “At the beginning of the video, he turns to the camera and says, “This is a serious and clear announcement to all the Jews, the first enemy of the Muslims. To all the Jews who conquered our country, the Muslims. The real war has not started yet, and everything you had before is simply called a child’s play compared to that which is going to happen to you in the near future, inshallah (God willing).”“

          • jeremy Morfey

            All words and no trousers.

  • Richard

    As long as there’s footie on the telly and a bowl of curry at the end of the week, nothing will happen. There is mass indoctrination from PC Leftie ideologues to the extent that people really are unable to perceive reality. Many years ago I did some teaching, and showed a picture of myself in an African school to English schoolchildren. “As you see,” I said, “I was the only White present.” “That’s racist, sir!” I was told. “Is it racist to point out a fact to you? Do you see any other black people in the photograph?” It made no difference. Simply pointing out facts – not even drawing conclusions – is rejected in modern Britain. We’re finished, no two ways about it. It’s just a matter of time.

    • Sue Smith

      Absolutely spot on!!!

      I remember a similarly pc constricted discussion in Year 9 Drama (14y/o).

      Me: “You’ll learn to discriminate as you grow older and won’t choose friends like that”
      Students: “You cannot discriminate miss; it’s against the law and it’s not right”
      Me: “What you’ll have to learn before you grow a day older is that there’s a significant difference between ‘discrimination’ and “being discriminating”. When you are “discriminating” you are making wise choices in life about where you eat, what you read, the people you befriend and so on”

      THEY WERE HAVING NONE OF IT.

      • Damaris Tighe

        The term ‘discriminating’ has been debased. As you point out it used to mean simple discernment, ie, judgement. It has now been politicised as ‘discrimination’ to mean unequal treatment based on race. Children have been indoctrinated to be ‘non-judgemental’ & lack the life skill of discernment. The result you can see in Rotherham. Those girls sure were non-judgemental & non-discriminating. Their teachers must be very proud of them.

        • Sue Smith

          Don’t confuse non-discriminating with dumb!! 🙂

    • Roger Hudson

      I well remember meeting a black person for the first time, it was 1969.
      Attitudes will not be dictated by current propaganda or laws.

  • Patrick Roy

    Some cultures cannot integrate together. Let’s face FACTS and act before it is too late. The first thing to do is develop points based systems for ALL immigration and asylum to ensure the right skills and beliefs are entering European countries, that enable economic strength and social cohesion.

    Great article Doug Murray.

    • Roger Hudson

      Just look at the Muslim/Hindu partition of India.

  • Murti Bing

    For the record, search ‘Luxor Massacre’ on Wikipedia. Read the details (fairly harrowing and frighteningly familiar) and take a note of the date.

    • Roger Hudson

      Quite. Anyone who has been going to Egypt is crazy.
      Time for UK resorts to get their act together, start with a new Brighton pier and indoor beach comlpex.

      • Damaris Tighe

        Is the old West Pier still a nesting box for starlings?

  • jeremy Morfey

    What practically can be done about this?

    There is a precedent in the UK of banning religious organisations, by which performance of its rituals was sufficient grounds for conviction on incitement charges, often involving the death penalty. This was applied here between the 16th and 19th centuries against Catholics, and the ritual burning of a religious terrorist still takes place in England each year around the 5th November.

    The precedent has, of course, been set in modern Iraq and Syria, in this case applied against Christians and Yazidis, and is a fundamental part of Sharia Law.

    I think we do need to work out now the incompatibilities between Islamic practice and the basic tenets of the home state, sufficient to cause at least a Breach of the Peace right up to the breakdown of that state’s constitutional institutions. Appropriate sanction can then be defined according to the severity of the incompatibility.

    For example, praying five times a day or fasting during Ramadan is hardly going to affect anyone here, and so can be safely permitted. Wearing the face covering is mostly benign, and can be seen as a personal choice of dress, but in some cases it can be seen as a disguise, and is in violation whenever someone’s identity needs to be verified, or even someone’s personal intentions need to be read from facial expressions. Other applications of Qu’ranic or hadithic commandment can be deeply in violation and insistence on their practice is sufficient to warrant a prosecution for incitement, and in some cases, treason.

    So we come to the penalties for such offences.

    The death penalty is not available in this country, but the annual ritual in Conservative conferences calling for its restoration continues. Many folk consider that when someone presents an immediate and mortal danger to society, then it is reasonable to conduct a summary death sentence. This is a normal part of the Rules of Engagement during war.

    Where there is a case of dual nationality, then expulsion is an option. This should be the normal course of action for foreigners convicted of incitement (treason cannot apply to foreigners). In cases where their expulsion may result in a grave risk of unhumanitarian treatment at home (a valid case involved the routine execution of returning Soviet prisoners of war), then due warning needs to be given before granting asylum, and if this warning is then ignored, the expulsion may proceed.

    In cases where expulsion is not an option, then either the offender is made stateless, or transported to another place willing and able to take them, or punished in situ. The risk is of someone staying in limbo in international space, or going underground as an international fugitive.

    Any punishment not involving the death penalty will be at considerable cost to the host nation. Imprisonment is very expensive. Outside prison, this person continues to pose a threat to society. Therefore, until it can be shown that this person no longer poses a threat, imprisonment is the only option. To do this on a scale whereby majority populations of whole cities are incarcerated for incitement could prove ruinous to any national Treasury.

    The better solution would be therefore to remove the threat, but still allow as free expression of one’s religion as far as it does not conflict dangerously with host culture. Is this possible within the discipline of Islam?

    • Clive

      …the offender is made stateless…

      The English Supreme Court has ruled against that, it cannot be done legally.

      • jeremy Morfey

        I do hate that expression “English Supreme Court”. It makes us sound all so American and republican, making justice a party political issue. Until recently, principles of justice was carried out by the Lord Chancellor, in the House of Lords, under the auspices of the Crown, which is not supposed to have Party affiliations. The sooner good sense can be restored, the better. It also suggests that all our undesirables will land on Gretna Green, which doesn’t come under any ‘English Supreme Court’.

        Of course any laws made can be unmade, so violating a number of treaties and legal principles in order to push offenders into the sea is always an option, but perhaps not a terribly practical one, unless you are Libya.

        • Clive

          I agree about the ‘English Supreme Court’ but I’m afraid it was them wot done it.

          …and I think you’ll find EU law at the back of this, maybe even the UN charter.

          • Mr B J Mann

            And yet Common

      • sidor

        This problem can be solved by reintroducing the death penalty.

      • Roger Hudson

        Parliament can write new laws, one current fight we must win is to assert the primacy of the British parliament over foreign (EU / ECHR) institutions. I see Hollande ha done that this week, there are clauses in the Lisbon treaty that allow a country to assert is national sovereignty ‘ in an emergency’. Europe is in an emergency.

      • jennybloggs

        Change the law?

      • Woman In White

        The English Supreme Court has no power to overrule International Law.

        • Sanctimony

          If you say so ….

          • Woman In White

            Statements of fact are not altered in their veracity by the products of your internet stalking.

    • MikeF

      Catholics in 17th century England were a genuinely persecuted minority. Muslims in 21st century UK are not.

      • sidor

        Comparison is incorrect: the Protestants ruling Britain in the 17th century were Christians. It would be correct to compare the 17th century Britain with some Moslem countries, like Egypt, where the Moslem Brotherhood and Wahhabi Islam are criminalised. Britain has to follow this good example.

        • Woman In White

          Crowell and his black-garbed gang of genocidal thugs and mass murderers were VERY similar to these ISIS morons.

          The comparison is directly appropriate.

          • Sanctimony

            I’m sorry… who is Crowell ?

          • Woman In White

            You must be disappointed that you weren’t the star of the recent Antman film.

          • sidor

            Cromwell restored Christianity in Britain by cleaning it from the latin paganism and idolatry.

      • jeremy Morfey

        What is the difference between the way Mohammed and his followers behaved in Arabia – for example the “purification” of Mecca, and how those claiming to represent Islam today are acting?

        What is the difference between the city elders of Mecca, taken in and eventually conquered by Mohammed through very skilful military tactics, and the world leaders today confronting a group of people who model themselves on Mohammed’s army?

  • sidor

    The degree of the problem is understated. The crucial difference between France and other European countries is that the French Moslems are 99% Arabs. The Germans have already learned that the Arabs are not the same as the Turks (Kurds).

    • Sue Smith

      Oh, I feel a change comin’ on!!!

      • sidor

        The funny point was that when they started mass Arab immigration from Maghreb, the French really believed that they could assimilate them as they earlier did with other minorities. They thought that the Arabs will start using French when praying in Mosques. How funny.

        • Sue Smith

          Yes, very funny – but grotesque (as they used to say on “Laugh In”).

        • Sue Smith

          Very funny in a tragic, hopelessly misguided way. I guess when a population doesn’t want to breed it will tell itself anything by way of justification – that way the society gets to objectify and fetischize dogs, and feel great about it!!!!

          I think the rot had set in before the current situation, frankly.

          • Damaris Tighe

            Have you noticed that puppies & kittens are now called ‘babies’?

        • Woman In White

          They thought that the Arabs will start using French when praying in Mosques

          That is a completely ludicrous claim.

          • Sanctimony

            Of course it is…. You say so ….

          • Woman In White

            Your only purpose on this website is to engage in trolling and religious hatred.

          • sidor

            Ludicrous but true. Sorry if this upsets you.

          • Woman In White

            I’m aware that some dreamy-eyed idealists thought so, but not “the French”.

          • sidor

            A minister a right-wing government, said: “Once you have moved to France, your ancestors are Galls”. A dreamy-eyed idealist?

          • Woman In White

            Yep.

    • mdj
      • sidor

        A typical idiotic German view of the problem: a lot of irrelevant details while the substance is missing. What the statistics says is that the German Turks are just mentally retarded and unable to get education. It isn’t the problem we are facing: the Saudi Arabs perpetrating 9/11 were successful students of engineering in the German Universities. Their education level was much higher than that of an average German.

        Only a medical imbecile can discuss the conflict of civilisations in terms of employment statistics and education level. Looks like these kind of people are in charge of the German immigration policy.

  • trace9

    These Muslim enclaves are actually Euro-Gazas. From that next to Israel, rockets arc towards schools & any civilian target, from European Gazas they can’t manage that yet, so human bombs arc towards cafe’s.. Thus, due to ‘events’, rather evenements, I reverse my li’l prediction for the Syria vote. Now it’ll go through with a vast majority, SNP, Lab., Tory.. But only for the selfsame reasons these cowardly scum no’d it 2 years ago. Craven self-interest. They cared & still care zero for ME children under the barrel-bomb, poison gas hammers, & didn’t wanna bomb for fear of attracting just what’s happened to Paris. Now, bombing’s seen as the only hope of eliminating the threat from where it’s most emanating. Too late chaps. Tanks, not just bombs! Good to see ‘media’ back here.. – How long before tunnels are found under these EUGazas, too..

    • sidor

      Thanks for informing us on the opinion of ISIS. But the problem can be solved quickly and easily by eliminating the source of funding.

      • milford

        Saudi and the US

        • sidor

          The Saudi tail is wagging the US dog.

    • Roger Hudson

      Just look how easy it is to put Gaza back in it’s place. Where would your ‘Euro-Gazas’ dig their supply tunnels to?

    • Mr B J Mann

      What’s wrong with barrel bombs?

      Would you prefer cluster bombs?

      Depleted Uranium?

      Napalm?

      Or chemical weapons like those the freedom fighters liberated from Libya?!

      Oh, and the Americans managed to kill 750,000 of “their own people” in their own civil war (whose else’s people do people think get killed in civil wars?!)!

      And I don’t hear any complaints about the dictator installed in the Ukraine by an illegal NATO/EU putsch “killing his own people”!?!?!?!!!

  • misomiso

    The problem is the ideology.

    There are lots of people who feel disaffected who go and form bands, create art or write poetry; feeling is alienated is not an excuse to go and kill people or blow themselves up.

  • justejudexultionis

    Even so-called ‘moderate’ Muslims have no interest in respecting our culture or integrating into our society. The fact is that Islam is fundamentally incompatible with western freedoms and an Islamic presence in Europe ought no longer to be tolerated – unless you wish to see a bloodbath.

    Islam must be expelled from Europe.

    • colchar

      The entire religion is a cancer.

    • Roger Hudson

      Bosnian muslims are Slavic, not Arabs or even Turks. I find them tolerant , when some (few) Saudi funded Wahabi Hodjas ( mosque/Jamija elders) tried to enforce ‘burkinis’ at the local summer aquapark they were quickly put down( verbally).
      The problems in Europe are of recent arab/berber/ turkic/pashtun origin.

      • milford

        Apparently Saudi Arabia is funding the promotion of Wahhabiism, (hard-line Islam), in British Muslim communities all over the UK. And we know how bottomless that pot of money is.

        • Genie Balham

          The KSA economy is not well. The oil prices is still going down, they are fighting a war with Yemen and they are heavily over-stretched abroad. They are suffering IS attacks at home and their people are demanding legal and social changes. Have they invested their oil money well? And do they understand how to re-trench? We shall see….

      • Mr B J Mann

        Look up some WW2 and Balkan Wars history.

        Not the Communist propaganda from the Soviet infiltrated Balkans liaison office and Stalin sympathising academics and BBC.

        Nor the NATO propaganda.

        In fact, if you look up the Turkic origins of the regions problems they go back to the 1500s.

        The man in the street might be OK.

        But he isn’t in charge!

    • Woman In White

      Even so-called ‘moderate’ Muslims have no interest in respecting our culture or integrating into our society

      I am surrounded by Muslims where I live, in France, and most of them (but not my most immediate neighbour) certainly do respect Western culture, and are integrated — but most are of the older generation, who came here to work, and are retired, and grateful for what they’ve received.

      So I disagree with you there — but I still agree with you that Islam is fundamentally incompatible with western freedoms ; except I’d go beyond just “freedoms” (which are trite), and include the Western philosophies and spirituality and religiosity that those freedoms are derived from.

      Islam is in a state of cultural-intellectual-religious crisis, because modern linguistics, and therefore Science, therefore mainstream philosophy, demonstrate that the notion of Scriptural literalism, that is in the very foundation of the Islamic view of the Bible and the Koran as the literal Word of God, is indefensible because we are ourselves incapable of the purely literal interpretations that their philosophy requires.

      Neither orthodox Judaism nor Catholic/Orthodox Christianity have ever made any such literalist claims about Scripture, regardless of the more daring claims of certain Jewish or Christian Sects — so that the only one of the three major monotheistic religions to be directly challenged by actual scientific discovery is Islam.

      The violence of Islam’s more recent actions against the West is a product of its philosophical decadence.

  • Sue Smith

    The people will go on and on and on and continue to deny the problem of unsympathetic migration and what it has done to French culture. That’s their problem!!

  • cliffcliff

    If you want a peaceful settlement you must give them more land (not)!

    • AlexanderGalt

      I’ll give ’em 6 feet!

  • Malcolm Stevas

    “France has the largest percentage of Muslims in its population of anywhere in western Europe. The bare truth is that this has created its problems.”
    Glad to see Mr Murray shares an opinion I’ve expressed for years. I like France and the French, and spend time there, but I was always mystified by their cultural conceit in regarding all & sundry from the former French territories as French, with free entry. It was naïve – not a trait the French regard as their own at all – and was always going to end in tears. On an even bigger scale than our own country – see below.
    “large parts of France are effectively not French”
    And many other parts are distinguished by the very un-French presence of folk wearing medieval desert garb – especially (IME) in the South.
    “..major cities in European countries, including Britain and France, had ‘no-go’ zones where non-Muslims and the police simply did not go”
    Self evidently and observably true. There are plenty of other “zones” where the indigenous people can move around without feeling as foreigners in their own land, but which are marked nevertheless by a significant alien presence.
    “France has the largest percentage of Muslims in its population (around 10 per cent) of anywhere in western Europe. Wherever the concentration gets above a certain level (perhaps 20 per cent), consequences follow.”
    Yup. London’s population is around 13% Muslim, exceeding that overall French average. Check out Bradford, Luton, Leicester, and parts of other major cities and towns. Our political classes tend not to live in those parts. Maybe they should be compelled to, in order to experience some of those “consequences” like us peasants.

    • Roger Hudson

      In huge swathes of the UK there are small towns or villages where the only muslims are the family ( usually Bengali) who run the local curry house, British media distort the situation by concentrating on urban ghettos . Even as the British armed forces shrink to 80,000 the number of muslim soldiers are a few score. Remember Sikhs are not muslims, nor are Hindus.
      If push had to come to shove I know who would prevail, i’m also sure the number of pathetic wet ‘liberal commentariat’ outnumbers those potential terrorists.

      • BillBill

        I find it worrying that your argument mirrors that of General Hague in WW1 who argued that the allies would win because ultimately the Germans will runout of live bodies. The answer is surely to make serious demands on wayward Muslims and encourage the recalcitrant to leave, with bribes if necessary.

  • AlexanderGalt

    Nothing more eloquently testified to the reality that there are not “moderate” Muslims than the protest of 30 Muslims in Paris against ISIS. We know they’re not shy at demonstrating when they care about something. The other thing is that in all of the thousands of tweets of Muslims condemning the attacks there are none that even suggest that Islam needs to change. More on that at: http://john-moloney.blogspot.com/2015/11/terrible-news.html

    • ill-liberal

      Or the booing during the minutes silence at the Turkey and Bosnia games.

  • Tamerlane

    We are witness to the same processes that broke up the Roman Empire. Mass unstoppable movement of people’s fleeing barbarian armies across frontiers. We settle them and give them gold in the form of welfare to keep the peace but in time they will overrun and destroy us. Just ask Gibbon.

    • kuffir

      They are not just fleeing from barbarian armies. They are coming here just for the gold in a lot of cases.

    • Woman In White

      Mass unstoppable movement of people’s fleeing barbarian armies across frontiers

      erm, didn’t happen, sorry

      The Germanic Tribes were in a political conflict with Rome because they were refused integration into the Empire both territorially and as citizens, and so they were excluded from the economic benefits that their fellow Europeans enjoyed themselves.

      Eventually, they tired of their second-class Client status, and marched to Rome to force this to change to their benefit — the result of this action was to ruin things for everybody, including themselves.

      • Sanctimony

        Might I refer you to: Gibbon, Montesquieu, Niccolò Machiavelli, John Locke, Blaise Pascal, Hugo Grotius, Pierre Gassendi…. They might improve your grasp of history… particularly of the period of which you claim to be such an authority…

        • Woman In White

          You’re perfectly welcome to consider the flawed methodology of the endarkenment as providing some form of absolute truth, but you cannot expect others to swallow that propaganda so eagerly as you have, troll ; Machiavelli withstanding.

          • Sanctimony

            Oh… you put yourself and your vapid witterings above the likes of the gents mentioned above…. as far as the Enlightenment is concerned, I can’t see the likes of Voltaire, Lessing, and Denis Diderot having much truck with you… not to mention Jefferson or Franklin from across the pond…

            Weren’t the above members of the Enlightenment pretty cynical about all your mumbo jumbo and hocus pocus delusions?

          • Woman In White

            They all of them mistook the product of their own minds for truth.

            Voltaire in particular was more vacuous than the rest.

          • Sanctimony

            Poor old Voltaire…. WIW considered you vacuous…

            Whereas you consider that the products of your own warped, delusional mind override all the great thinkers and minds from both before and after the Enlightenment …

            You claim the ‘truth’… arrogance is your only carapace… you assume superiority over all the great faiths and hector and rant at all and sundry, regardless of the points they raise or offer.

            You are contemptuously dismissive of anyone and everyone who dares to answer…. not even query… one of your diktats. You are a narrow-minded, opinionated and tunnel-visioned bigot.

            I continue to mock you because I despise you and everything you stand for. You are without intelligence, humanity or charity and the more you bluster, the more you expose your arrogance and deceit.

          • Woman In White

            No, you’re a hateful git, troll, stalker, and anorak.

      • Tamerlane

        Don’t need a ‘history’ lesson from you thanks very much. Aside from that which you write being complete b@ll@cks, Gibbon has an infinitely better grasp of the fall of the Roman Empire than you ever will, funnily enough.

        Move along and go play GCSE multi-culti New Labour history somewhere else.

        • Sanctimony

          Were you educated or just indoctrinated?….

          Neither, Tamerlane, old bean…. This creature (WIW), had her jaws prized open to maximum aperture , shortly after birth with a heavy-duty steel RSJ, and since then the flow of bile, poison, cant, hypocrisy and condescension has been of Niagran proportions…She is a force of nature… of the effluent variety…

          • Woman In White

            the flow of bile, poison, cant, hypocrisy and condescension

            You really should stop posting about yourself and nothing else.

  • Yorkieeye

    I’m glad you point out that many Muslims came here to escape barmy old men running their lives Douglas. I’ve often wondered how disappointing it must be that instead of encountering the glamorous, go getting life style the immigrant dreams of they often find themselves living in depressing ghettos complete with sharia law, competitive religious devotion and stupid white liberals giving their full backing to the mad old men holding everyone back. I’ve never understood the Left’s reactionary attitudes to our Muslim brothers and sisters and the way they live.

    • BillBill

      Nonsense. Muslims know exactly what they will get here. I think one or two of them even have the internet.

  • Wee Mental Davie

    It’s up to our leaders to start acting instead of reacting. I’m one of the much derided (on here) footie class, who go “religiously” every other Saturday to our very own personal Mecca, get drunk perhaps and shout abuse at the opposition, to escape the dull reality of a modern SNP Scotland in slumsville. This is my x factor or strictly, my holiday in the sun. We are not completely ignorant to what is going on but when week in week out, we see our very own elected politicians fail to represent us in just about everything, it’s hardly surprising we disconnect. Look how the total failure of politics in Scotland brought about the rise of the evil SNP, or the evil seeds in the left wing Labour party of Corbyn’s.

    This peoples disconnect has also allowed extreme islam to take hold because the religions natural agenda is of dominance. The whole country is disconnected from weak politicians, but we as the masses, generally do not feel the need to attack the country we live in with violent killings. Muslims use the excuse of being second class to warrant their behaviour. I’m second class but don’t feel the urge to hack people to death. The problem is an incompatible alien ideology, combined with the disconnect of the masses. A remedy is reconnect the people but the cure is to remove the cancer WITHIN islam. Re write the koran and cut out the malignant cancer growing in its midst. Standing up yet again, down at the local mosque, telling everyone islam is the religion of peace … what flocking planet are you people on ??

    To fix this requires bottle. This is lacking in all politicians today. Who the heck in their respective party’s, select these chinless no marks to represent us ? A university degree means little when it comes to decisions representing the people. We have a muslim problem in UK and what do we do ? we import more muslims into our country. How stupid can you get ? !!

    I want to see positive action AT HOME, to secure our perimiter. Take stock of who our enemy actually is and carry out positive action to correct obvious mistakes made by our politicians. Sweep the country from top to bottom and terminate the muslim terrorist sympathisers using any such manner required to meet the objective. Where PC or ridiculous laws prevent action, then make a temporary law to make legal any operation. I suspect though, EU law will trump our ability to govern … again ! So who really controls our country ? Merkel and Juncker I expect.

    You want to be a British muslim, then step up to the mark. Abide by our rules without question, because the train set is ours. Don’t like it then foxtrot oscar.

    Start acting like a government for the people and keep us safe from muslim terrorists.

    • JewishKuffar

      Very well said. I hope you email this to David Cameron. Who cares if we bomb ISIS in Syria to get some headlines when the deal danger is on own streets.

  • Politicians who allow further “Syrian” migration into their countries, in the full knowledge a percentage will be trained jihadists, are quite simply accessories to murder, as I point out here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UE2-0FbcDAY

  • ExamineIslam

    Imagine all we could do with the BILLIONS of pounds we are spending on counter-terrorism and ‘monitoring’ the estimated 500 Jihadis who’ve returned from Syria. We could finally give DECENT care for our elderly, decent medical care for all or educate our kids really well. We could build the power stations we need or develop new antibiotics to replace the ones which bugs are becoming resistant to. But our politicians don’t want to appear ‘intolerant’ so they do not do what they need to in order to protect the law-abiding citizens who actually love Britain and uphold British values. The mass of Muslims who hate our country so much should all be deported. Amongst them will no doubt be some who are blameless and no threat – but they must blame their violent co-religionists for this – not us. This is what needs to be done to protect our people – and to stop spending so much of our hard-earned tax money of trying to prevent further terrorism – which as we all know is an impossible mission anyway, as Muslims will simply begin stabbing and running people over if we remove their access to bombs and guns – witness Israel’s struggle with its hateful Arab population right now. No-one advocated harming Muslims – simply repatriating them from whence they came, and where they clearly have more loyalty to than the UK. If their home countries refuse then a friendly empty Muslim state like Kazakhstan will no doubt be found to oblige. It’s a tough decision but failing to be intolerant of intolerance will be our destruction unless we act.

    http://examine-islam.org/2015/11/at-war-but-who-with/

    • jeremy Morfey

      No, if we saved BILLIONS of pounds by exporting jihadis, we’d not give decent care for our elderly, decent medical care, education, power stations or subsidise antibiotic research. It would all go in tax cuts for the bonus bankers, whose deregulated fraud up to 2008 has cost us a trillion, paid for by cutting interest for savers, cutting public services into the bone and destabilising the nation.

      Some folk argue that Israel gives in terror a hundredfold what they receive.

      Perfectly good European Muslim country on the trek up from Greece to Germany – yet how many choose to stop off in Bosnia?

      How do you propose exporting a large chunk of the populations of Bradford, London, Leicester, Birmingham and so on? Push them into the sea (someone pointed out that the UN or the EU would not let us, and if they ended up in Calais, they’d only be back again)? Make ghettos of these places, Warsaw or Gaza style, and then bomb them to dust? Ask Saudi Arabia (big empty place so perfect for Muslims, their founding prophet lived there) how many they’d take in. I think the number is rather less than the number of thumbs on one hand.

    • Woman In White

      cripes, talk about utopianism …

      • Sanctimony

        Another put down from the sage of cyberspace ….

  • ExamineIslam
  • Mr. Bernard Wijeyasingha

    Usually when a nation does battle “on two fronts” one assumes they are external. France has one battle that is within France. It is not exactly a “civil war” for the civilians of France are not battling the government. It is however a war against a portion of the population of France.

    That internal battle was the result of liberal policies that allowed so many Muslims into France. To wage a battle against the extreme elements of the “French Muslims” will pit them against the rest of the French population.

    • Woman In White

      Sorry, but this is just pure unadulterated RUBBISH.

      The Islamists currently waging __WAR__ on France utterly reject the very notion of the Nation State.

      Calling this a “civil war” is completely cretinous, though for your defence, I’m mostly directing this last comment at the author of this ignorant article.

      • Sanctimony

        I’m sure that Douglas Murray is shaking in shoes at this threat from a completely dilettante commentator who is obsessively and compulsively a self-ordained authority on anything that comes up on these blogs….

        • Woman In White

          You are an idiot.

      • Mr. Bernard Wijeyasingha

        I should know. The war in Sri Lanka was against the Tamil Tigers: The Tamil Tigers

        -were the only terrorist group to date to have a Navy, (with rudimentary submarines), an air force and a lethal military where the cadres wore a necklace with a cyanide pill in case of capture.NO other terrorist group including ISIS has matched that.

        -Used the suicide vest most extensively till ISIS. They also assassinated 2 leaders of 2 nations (Premadasa Ranasinghe of Sri Lanka and Rajiv Gandhi of India). that has NEVER been done by any terrorist groups except for the”black hand” that assassinated Arc Duke Ferdinand that started world war 1. It was also the first assassination of an Indian leader by a foreign agent.

        -Abducted thousands of Tamil children to be used as Child soldiers and Child suicide bombers. the last was saved for the girls. they had to face seasoned soldiers, get shot at, and shoot.

        -Created a human shield close to 500 thousand men, women and children during the last months of that almost 30 year long war. (the longest war in the 20th century in Asia and equal to the war of the roses in Europe)

        -Did acts of genocide on the Tamil Christians and Tamil Muslims under their control
        All during that war and outside the war zone Tamils and Sinhalese lived peacefully side by side.
        That war was only against the Hindu Tamil Tigers. and not against the people of Sri Lanka as in Syria

    • Sanctimony

      She’s nuts….

      • Mr. Bernard Wijeyasingha

        Who is “bonkers”? I thought you meant the writer but the writer is male. I am still going to give you the benefit of the doubt and up vote you.

        • Sanctimony

          Bernard… sorry, I didn’t position my post properly… I am referring, of course, to the intellectual clone of Newton and Einstein who pontificates, postures, hectors and lectures on this site and whose avatar suggests that she is a spurned and frustrated vestal virgin….

          • Woman In White

            Troll, stalker, idiot.

          • Sanctimony

            African Grey….

          • Mr. Bernard Wijeyasingha

            Sanctimony
            Not your fault at all. I answered your comment before I answered hers. she is wrong for I pointed to the example of Sri Lanka where Colombo did battle with the (Hindu) Tamil Tigers while in the rest of that nation and outside of the war zone the Tamils and Sinhalese lived side by side in peace.

            Even though the Tamil Tigers were recognized by the UN as terrorist group, they were not the Tamil population, where a good deal of them were held under the control of the Tamil Tigers.

            I also should have given her other examples of a true civil war other than Syria, including the Iranian revolution that overthrew the Shah and his government, The Russian revolution that overthrew the Romonov Family ending the rule of the Tsars, etc. I gather we are discussing the person who calls herself “lady in white” or something like that.

          • Woman In White

            That’s like saying I’m wrong because you’ve “demonstrated” that yellow is the same as blue because they’re both colours.

          • Mr. Bernard Wijeyasingha

            Then explain how taking on Islamic terrorism in France is the same as a civil war. That is your point and you need to expand on that. failure to do so means you are wrong.

          • Woman In White

            Then explain how taking on Islamic terrorism in France is the same as a civil war. That is your point

            Well done, you’ve “understood” the exact diametric opposite of my rejection of this idiotic article.

          • Mr. Bernard Wijeyasingha

            so we finally agree that a civil war and attacking terrorism within France are two separate issues. Well we did take the long road to reach this mutual conclusion.

          • Sanctimony

            You are spot on Bernard…. they should harness her to a wind turbine for the coming electricity crisis this winter….

          • Mr. Bernard Wijeyasingha

            That is funny but thanks anyway. she may not approve.

  • kuffir

    “how many Muslims in France and Britain came here precisely to avoid the fundamentalists in their faith”
    Was that really the main thing? Or was it the welfare system – income support, child support, free healthcare, free education, and a lack of petty crime? How many came just for those things? We have to start turning off the welfare tap and getting people back to work. Then the die-hard ones will start returning to where they came from and the rest will start to integrate better, start losing their religion.

    • Mr B J Mann

      Haven’t you noticed:

      They’re all either atheists or Christians now?!?!?!!!!

      • johnb1945

        You know what?

        Some are.

        No……. really……..

        But…. the Mirpuri/ Bengali culture asserts strong bonds of honour and shame. A woman divorces her abusive husband, and everyone knows and tuts, even abuses her in the street. A gay man lives his entire life a lie, gets married, has kids for fear of the shame. And communities may have plenty of shouty self appointed sheikhs to keep the weaker ones in line.

        So they keep it closeted, but it’s all going on. I have seen it with my own eyes.

        We could do well to appear friendly and understanding because there are lots of people who wish to escape the constraints of that life.

        • Mr B J Mann

          And?

          Your point?

          Do you have children?

          Do you tell them to go out and play with strange men and dogs because most of them are harmless, in fact most of them are quite nice?

          And to pick and eat any mushrooms or berries they see because most of them are harmless, in fact most of them are quite nice too?

          The country is full.

          The “progressive” lefty “liberals” have been telling us that for half a century whenever anyone has needed to dig a quarry or build a house or lay even one more inch of road.

          If they allowed it the whole country would be covered in concrete and tarmac.

          And yet, 10 million extra people later, they insist we should import more people by the Trojan Horse load?!?!?!!!

          • johnb1945

            My point is that if you dedicate more energy to making our culture appear attractive than you do to tarring all Muslims with the same extremist brush you might find that quite a few of them decide to break out of the ghetto and join us.

            And that, surely, has to be a better solution to the problem than curtailment of free speech, mass deportations or anything else even more extreme.

            Try to imagine what it must be like growing up 2nd or 3rd gen (Pakistani or Bengali) Muslim.

            You hate the impositions of your honour bound, patriarchal, hyper pious culture, but you know if you leave it, there’s a good chance you’ll lose your family. So there better be something good over the other side for you to go to – not a bunch of chavs calling you a p**i suicide bomber.

          • kuffir

            Freedom of speech must not be curtailed, that’s the worst reaction yet its exactly the reaction of the Conservatives who are trying to implement a crackdown on free speech using “Extremist Banning/Disruption Orders”. The level of appreciation of free speech in the house of commons today is truly shocking, they barely even seem to understand what it means.

            The problem is that any more reasoned voices arguing calmly about the problems with Islam are being pushed out of the frame by the current crowd of “politically correct” media and politicians, and the only voices heard that are critical of Islam are the ones that do so in angry voices and without proper explanations, the ‘bunch of chavs’ as you call them. The worst thing about this is that it is giving the moral high ground to the people who are shouting aggressively, because they are the only ones getting their voices heard on the subjects like, forced marriage (including worst of all child marriage), gender segregation etc.. If a proper open debate actually takes place in our media then the more intelligent Muslims will begin to see the light and abandon their religion. Being afraid to talk about it at all is the worst reaction of all.

          • Mr B J Mann

            Firstly:

            “My point is that if you dedicate more energy to making our culture appear attractive than you do to tarring all Muslims with the same extremist brush you might find that quite a few of them decide to break out of the ghetto and join us.”

            So why did they come over here and go into the ghetto in the first place?!

            Were they attracted to our unattractive culture?!

            Why did they choose the ghetto over Islington or multi- culti areas?!

            Were you the one wittering on about seeing things with their own eyes?!

            There are non so blind as those that will not see!

            Secondly, who is tarring all Musl!ms with the same extremist brush?

            No one that I’ve seen!

            Try re-reading the threads with an unjaundiced eye and an unprejudiced mind!

            Thirdly (did you actually read my post, or was your reply aimed at someone else?!) who mentioned “curtailment of free speech….. or anything else even more extreme”?!?!

            And as for “mass deportations”: yet again, it was the “liberal” left who started telling us the country was full half a century ago.

            AI the “liberal” left volunteered to go on a permanent gap-life in the third world maybe we could find some room for deserving refugees?!

            Fourthly, you patronising, bigoted, prejudiced (look them up), judgemental, illiberal, sterotyping fasc!st waycist:

            What makes you think I DON’T KNOW what it:

            “must be like growing up 2nd or 3rd gen (Pakistani or Bengali) Muslim”?!?!!!!!

            Do you assume that as I’m obviously cleverer than you I can’t be a Musl!m imm!grant?!?!?!!!!

            And who do your next few lines refer to?

            Little Englanders or “progressive” lefty “liberals”?!

            Now I’ve addressed two of your posts:

            How about showing me the courtesy of reading and responding to what I wrote?!

          • johnb1945

            No. Because your post is too long and incoherent. Try to be concise. Pithy.

          • Mr B J Mann

            Why, can’t you cope with more than a soundbite?

            Try Twitter!

            In other news johnb1945 tries to distract from the fact he’s been pithed on twice.

            And by a Pak!

          • johnb1945

            Just try to make your points more concise and less ranting.

            So far as I can see.

            ‘Muslims choose where to live’

            Yes, but 2nd or 3rd gen may be children or teenagers.

            ‘For all I know you may be a Muslim’.

            Fair enough. I doubt it.

            ‘I am patronising’

            Okay.

            All good now?

          • Mr B J Mann

            After several opportunities you still haven’t begun to address anything beyond the first three words of this much earlier post:

            And?

            Your point?

            Do you have children?

            Do you tell them to go out and play with strange men and dogs because most of them are harmless, in fact most of them are quite nice?

            And to pick and eat any mushrooms or berries they see because most of them are harmless, in fact most of them are quite nice too?

            The country is full.

            The “progressive” lefty “liberals” have been telling us that for half a century whenever anyone has needed to dig a quarry or build a house or lay even one more inch of road.

            If they allowed it the whole country would be covered in concrete and tarmac.

            And yet, 10 million extra people later, they insist we should import more people by the Trojan Horse load?!?!?!!!

          • Mr B J Mann

            As for your “reply”:

            Remind me where I said ‘Muslims choose where to live’, it’s not in my previous four posts.

            There wouldn’t be 2nd or 3rd gen if there wasn’t 1st gen.

            Teenagers appear to be quite capable of going to the Middle East, coming back, and travelling to London, Paris, Madrid or New York.

            And you think it’s OK for you to doubt people and be patronising, but not anyone else?!

  • Lady Magdalene

    When, several decades ago, Western countries’ political elite decided to import Muslims to boost population numbers, they hit the self-destruct button. We’re now starting to see the consequences played out on our streets.

    Enoch Powell warned that we were making a catastrophic mistake: and he was right.

    The gates were dismantled; the barbarians are inside the walls and they can’t be reasoned with. The modern European civilisation is going to go the same way the Roman civilisation did.

    • Guilttripjunkie

      I seem to recall in areas like Lancashire it was also about importing cheap labour to keep the ailing cotton industry going. Giving citizenship to millions of cultural incompatible people was the biggest folly in British history.

      • Gilbert White

        These were imported to do back breaking long tedious work in the mills not to sit on their fat backsides collecting dole. My grandfather’s muslim boy used to scrape the crud off his pants with his fingernails and be grateful for the job?

        • Guilttripjunkie

          ‘Scrape crud off pants’ my Grandfather used to dream of that job.

          The trouble is Gilbert their descendants are five times more likely to be claiming dole and other in work welfare payments than the so called lazy white British. Check the ONS stats if you want. The Muslim welfare bill is the next taboo after the child rape scandals.

    • Joe Long

      The historian Mary Beard was on C4 not long ago. She opined that although the situation re migrant hordes might appear superficially similar to the late 4th century we would be very wrong and unjustfied to draw any conclusions from that.

      Yeah right

      C4 informed viewers that she is one of our public intellectuals, which in our unhappy state is clearly code for equivocating weasel

      • Chamber Pot

        Mary Beard is eye candy so get with it.

        • William Matthews

          She should wear a Burka.

    • Woman In White

      Algeria was a French Département — France didn’t “import Muslims to boost population numbers”, it incorporated a Muslim-dominated territory into its own land on an equal basis, and the currently huge Algerian population or French of Algerian descent was created back when they had French Nationality.

      The Tiber was also once a French Département, and there is a massive Italian population in France too — and need one remind you of the particular status of Irish Nationals in the UK ?

      The consequences of WW2 and various 19th & 20th Century conflicts of Colonialism or Independence do not result from the pressing of self-destruct buttons many decades after the fact.

      • Sanctimony

        More hectoring from the Boadicea of the blog…. it’s interminable and Wikipedia must be over-preoccupied with this fount of all knowledge….

        • Woman In White

          Stalking troll.

          You should be banned.

      • Sanctimony

        Lady M: 9,000 comments, 160,000 upticks…. WIW ???????????

        • Woman In White

          You are indeed ignorant of the total number of comments and approvals I’ve received, and BTW I couldn’t give a fig about yours, and yet here you are carrying on with your ghastly content-free be-anorak’d stalking and trolling.

          You scraped the bottom of your barrel YEARS ago — you’ve reduced yourself to scrabbling through the rotten mulch.

          • Sanctimony

            Well, please enlighten me about your popularity, foghorn… It is only recently, having been laid up with a serious injury from a climbing accident, that I have picked up my mouse and sought a diversion in baiting and exposing a total self-serving pseud…

            You have provided very good sport… the only complaint being that you are such an easy and obvious target and not really a worthy adversary.

            The doctor tells me that I should be mobile next week, so I will be able to pursue some more meaningful pursuits… and leave you to harangue and bully all the well-meaning and less pseudo-intellectual targets on these blogs…

          • Woman In White

            Your autobiography is uninteresting.

            Your trolling is despicable.

          • Sanctimony

            The Macaw squawks, yet again….

          • Mr B J Mann

            Social Climbing?!

  • Margot5000

    Local news reported a combined faith peace walk or such through Exeter tonight. As it was dark it was impossible to see how large this was but it seems to have been in the hundreds if that. The only person interviewed was a non-hejab wearing Muslim woman. No-one else’s face was shown. Such a march is what is needed all over the country BUT… Exeter has a huge Muslim student population both at the university and at language schools. Sometimes in the centre and surrounded by totally veiled (presumably) women one can imagine oneself in an Islamic country. There is a large mosque. That march should have been held in daylight and should have numbered in the thousands. There should have been several interviews. A few people walking around with candles not showing their faces doesn’t give one confidence in the supposed ‘moderate’ Muslim response of Not in my name. The university has a large Islamic department funded with Gulf money I believe. Both it and the whole university should have been pro-active in this to a greater degree – or were they? and just hardly anyone turned up. Also as it was mixed faith one can only wonder how many were Christians, Hindus, Buddhists……Such marches are urgently needed – peopled by Muslims in large numbers – if they really want to show they are with us.

    • Mongo

      I don’t agree – go to places like Luton, Bradford, areas of Birmingham and London and then tell me that Exeter has a large Muslim population. You can walk right through Exeter town centre and never see a hijab or Burka

      these mid-sized, well heeled towns are now among the only parts of urban Britain still relitively untouched by mass immigration and Islamification. I don’t doubt that will begin to change in the coming years however

      • Margot5000

        Sorry, but did you actually read my posting! You’re repeating exactly the points I made. I have been sitting at traffic lights in Exeter sometimes and looking at the passers by thinking I could be in Bradford or Luton. PLEASE read it again. The news item was enlarged somewhat last night and I only caught a bit (will catch up with it later) but there were some interviews with white church leaders exhorting us to be nice to each other and that was it. The university should have been involved and the march should have been in daylight. I suggest you go to Exeter and walk around and then write again. Yes, the situation is very different in other towns in the SW (Totnes is Surrey moved west with accents in the High St to rival the Queen’s – awful – to us straw munching yokels at least faced with stratospheric house prices in what was once a dozy little town – immigration by another route – see below) so I can understand your reaction somewhat. Personally I wouldn’t object if Exeter were filled with women such as was one the news item (she was sans hejab you may see) but I do object to the heavily veiled anonymous items I meet at every turn – or every traffic light). I have mentioned Totnes – and immigration there it is of the middle-class flight to somewhere NICE variety – but there is increased immigration from London and Birmingham etc to the rest of the SW fleeing what they are faced with every day. All this is what needs looking at nationally. If there are towns destined to have large immigrant areas then this can be good – Chinatowns for example – but large ghettos with half their population only let out on the streets in a ridiculous garb then that is a problem. The whole ‘burka’ (and I would say ‘headscarf’ problem) is one that needs looking at BY THE MUSLIM POPULATION problem urgently I would say. You say that Exeter is no Luton. Actually it has been embroiled in one of the most litigious ‘Islam’ cases in the last few years, one which made my blood run cold. The local hospital went over to scrubs and a nurse was forbidden to wear a crucifix which she had worn for years. This was not of the Tom Jones variety and it was difficult to seethe hospital’s reasoning unless they were going to apply it across the board – wedding rings et al – particularly as staff were regularly using public transport in scrubs with people sitting next to them wondering what THEY were likely to pick up. The case went to Europe and she lost. Throughout all this and now, an exception has been made as regards staff attire and you will easily guess what this is – the hejab – which is obviously thought by the hospital to be less likely than a crucifix worn under a top to fall into a wound etc. Bonkers and quite simply divisive.
        Anyway this started off as just a please to actually read my original posting so will try and cut is short. Just a few more points. A few years ago Exeter had a suicide bomber make an attempt. He was LD but had been radicalised locally. What happened to those who radicalised him? Be interesting to know – hope they’re still on someone’s radar! – if they’re not now in Syria.

        • Mongo

          OK, take it easy! I know Exeter well, but when you say you ‘could be in Bradford or Luton’ or ‘in an Islamic country’ it doesn’t ring at all with the Exeter I know.

          The uni campus is pretty multicultural as you would expect, but no more so than other universites (in fact I think less). The city itself is demographically pretty white – it’s rare to see many black or Asian faces, even in the bustling high street

          Perhaps there are heavily Islamic areas that I’m not aware of – what parts specifically are you referring to?

          I remember the ‘suicide bomber’ – he was a lone mentally disturbed man from Plymouth IIRC

          • Margot5000

            I suggest you make a more recent trip. I frequently have to stop at traffic lights right in the centre and frequently looking around all I see are totally veiled women (OK some daringly face-uncovered). Sometime I fail to see a white ethnic. Yes, the university has made the town multicultured (you say less than many, I would dispute that particularly given that it has the most important Islamic department in the country – as I said with heavy funding from the ME, but that is not the issue here). There are lots of chinese – but they are all walking around like typical students – jeans bookbags etc not gliding around like daleks. And sorry, that binbag gear does offend me with all it says about those womens’ roles. We are constantly told that even the headgear has nothing to do with religion – so….Again, I would say that this is something the Muslim population as a whole needs to take a good look at as it seems to be unnecessarily decisive so, if anything, affects them more than us. The hooha there was about the crucifix ban and hejab allowing does more to stigmatise them and create divisions – more than integrate them – ‘Oh, we’re so sorry you should have to catch a glimpse of a crucifix..
            Again, I feel you are replying without reading my posting. I did say that the suicide bomber had LD. BUT he was RADICALISED LOCALLY. It is one thing for one deluded LD-disabled boy to wake up one morning and think ‘Oh,What shall I do today, Oh, I’ll go and bomb a cafe in the middle of Exeter’ – I would say extremely unlikley. It is quite another for him to be groomed for months by an Islamic group and then sent off to do their bidding. We have all seen LD-disabled children and other vulnerables used in the ME and Afghanistan on such missions. Is that what we want happening here? That happened in the ‘well-heeled’ Exeter you describe.

            Incidentally I have now looked at the news item that was on last night and I fail to see one Muslim face other than the woman interviewed. There seem to be only a few people, mainly white – I spotted one Chinese and one possible Indian – and the interview that was included was with the Exeter Imam in the mosque. There was no sign of him in this ‘multi-faith’ group. He should have been out on the streets leading a demo of as many of his co-religionists that he could muster!

  • Mary Ann
    • Mr B J Mann

      Hahahahaaaaa!!!!

      I though you were linking to that lefty rag because a distinguished international statesman had made an interesting contribution to it.

      But it’s an article by Laurie Penny!!!

      Typical gem from somebody wh doesn’ even kno abour human relations, never mind international relations:

      “Rational analysis of the consequences of 14 years of military intervention in the Middle East has been lost in the scramble to point fingers at anyone who might possibly be responsible. It’s the students’ fault. It’s the feminists’ fault. It’s liberalism. It’s Islam. It’s British multiculturalism. It’s French assimilationism.”

      Mary Ann – you are Laurie Penny and I claim my £5!

      • Mary Ann

        I shall take that as a compliment, I would not have expected anyone to think that my writing was good enough to get paid for it. Are we only allowed to quote right wing rags?

        • Mr B J Mann

          You can quote whatever you like!

          But ig you quote Laurie don’t expect anyone to take you seriously!!!

          Have you ever seen her infamous debate with (gay, disabled) Starkey?!

          • Mongo

            next she’ll link to an Owen Jones piece

    • Cyril Sneer

      From your link:
      “If the West closes its borders, the terrorists will have won”

      Hilarious, truly hilarious. This is the lefty narrative which is so typical of them and so completely wrong it’s beyond comical.

      You guys really are some of the most stupid people on Earth.

  • GoJebus

    We are all talking about it, but what can be done? It is clear that many, many Muslims in this country do not only not give a monkey’s for this country and its heritage, but are actively working to usurp it. You would have thought that after the outrages we have seen in the name of their benighted religion they would be burning their Korans in the street; but the opposite seems to be happening and it seems a vain hope that the weight of public opinion and heritage might eventually dilute to acceptable levels the poisonous parts of their ideology (as per Christendom). That 27% of Muslims in this country can have sympathy with the murderers of journalists for drawing a cartoon says it all (http://www.comres.co.uk/polls/bbc-radio-4-today-muslim-poll/). That alone is beyond pathetic, is beyond all understanding. And if they are simple enough in the head to want cartoonists murdered, then it must be very easy to turn that hate on bacon-chomping, beer swilling, gay rights-believing, women’s libbers like us and arrange to have us gunned down in the street to make way for the Caliphate. So what can we do practically to reverse this? If we cannot have the debate openly and without fear of becoming only posthumously remembered for standing up (and my admiration for Douglas and others in that position knows no bounds), then shouldn’t we be at war? Are we not entitled to be at war when never mind the Chechens and the Taliban, 300,000 of our own (so called) citizens appear to be sympathetic to those who want to attack western interests. Isn’t that a lethal problem? (http://www.comres.co.uk/polls/bbc-radio-4-today-muslim-poll/)? That’s a number by the way higher than all our armed forces put together, including civilian MOD staff. Perhaps I engage too much with the right wing press and am exaggerating, but I don’t feel so. Vive la France.

  • Chamber Pot

    Well at least the writer has been honest enough to describe it as a civil war. When he starts to describe the situation prevailing in the UK in the same manner then he will have our respect.

    We are in an asymmetric war with many people who are our physical neighbours and cannot accurately be described as terrorists and Cameron and May know this. These people share ‘ mainstream ‘ beliefs hostile to our values but cannot be described as jihadists.

  • global city

    If you change Muslim from any thought or sentence regarding mass migration and cultural difficulties and replace it with Protestant…. and replace ********** (any western country) with Ireland?

    • Mr B J Mann

      And the crazy thing is the Protestants who were “planted” in Ireland were probably descendants of Irish Celts who moved to (ie conquered parts of) Scotland.

      And Dublin was a Viking city. You know Norsemen. As in the Norsemen who conquered parts of Britain (and France).

      And who later conquered the whole of Britain in their guise of “Nor”mans!

      But if you really want a laugh: look at the Ba1kans:

      The S3rbs and Cr0ats all speak S3rbo-Cr0at, and the wicked evil S3rbs have colonised all the peasant smallholdings between the Musl!m towns in B0snia because……….

      .

      …………………They are all the same indigenous S3rbs.

      The S3rbia S3rbs are the original inhabitants of the area, if you ignore the remnants of Bronze(?) Age tribes that moved on to better pastures new.

      The Cr0ats are the ones who were colonised by the West and switched to the Roman alphabet from Cyrillic (and tend to suffer from Fasc!st dictatorships which liked to sl!t the thr0ats of Serb!a S3rbs.

      And the B0snians are the S3rbs who converted to !slam ra than hand over their first-born sons and prettiest daughters to the 0ttomans, and so became second class citizens in their own land.

      The S3rbian and B0snian S3rbs are the ones who refused to renounce their Christian faith and became third class citizens in their own lands.

      Then in WW2 tens, hundreds, of thousands of S3rbs were slaughtered, especially in their spiritual homeland of K0sovo, which the Narsties tried to 3thn!cally c13anse of S3rbs as punishment for standing up to them.

      Then the Allies switched support from the Christian Royalist to the Communist partisans and allowed an atheist Cr0at communist butcher to take over the country (and then sent 30,000 non communist PoWs “home” to him to be slaughtered into mass graves!).

      Then when he died and it all fell apart NATO and the EU backed the Ustase and the J!hadis against the Christians, and finished off H!tler’s 3thn!c c13ansing of K0sovo.

      An we think our politicians can be trusted to save the rest of us?!?!?!!!!

    • johnb1945

      And?

      Hardly the same.

      The Protestants of Ireland were Scots and there’s been a blurry line between the Irish and the Scots for most of the past 1500 years. Same people, same culture, latterly different religion.

      • sfin

        Indeed.

        And the Scots (or Scoti – as the tribe called itself) originated in North Antrim. They invaded what is now Scotland and displaced the Picts.

        • global city

          You confirm my point. With each mile removed the problem of ‘in-migration’ of even more alien cultures, in massive numbers magnifies.

  • BillBill

    France’s most famous living novelist

    MICHEL HOUELLEBEC

    In the NYT today:

    “Keep calm and carry on.” All right, then, that’s just what we’ll do (even though, alas, there is no Churchill to lead us). Despite the common perception, the French are rather docile, rather easy to govern. But they are not complete idiots. Instead, their main flaw is a kind of forgetful frivolity that necessitates jogging their memory from time to time. There are people, political people, who are responsible for the unfortunate situation we find ourselves in today, and sooner or later their responsibility will have to be examined. It’s unlikely that the insignificant opportunist who passes for our head of state, or the congenital moron who plays the part of our prime minister, or even the “stars of the opposition” (LOL) will emerge from the test looking any brighter.

    Who exactly weakened the capacities of the police forces until they were totally on edge and almost incapable of fulfilling their mission? Who exactly drilled into our heads for years the notion that borders were a quaint absurdity, and evidence of a foul and rancid nationalism?

    • Woman In White

      Houellebecq is a mediocre polemist.

      • Sanctimony

        Unlike you, who transcends any possible philosopher, theologian or economist who has dared to draw breath in your presence…

        • Woman In White

          Troll

          • Sanctimony

            Parrot…

          • Woman In White

            Anorak.

  • Hoot_Gibson

    All West European politicians are to blame for the massacres.
    It is simple mass immigration by an alien peoples all from failed Medieval Islamic states who practice social violence on their peoples not seen for hundreds of years in Europe, ( bar the wars) who hate our “permissive” lifestyle yet love our tolerance and fear of their near complete self -segregation from indigenous peoples while enjoying free benefits such housing, tax credits, health and schooling provided by us the people’s tax’s.
    We as the people have never voted for mass immigration on such a scale as to transform our societies beyond recognition to leave native peoples angry and bewildered by such treachery perpetrated by all political parties.
    Instead we have be completely neutered all criticism shut down by the politically correct fanatics that is the establishment today who’s self loathing philosophy consciously favour ethnic minorities over us. They do this by turning a blind eye to the anti west Islamic fanatics who have been allowed to preach violence and even rape and abuse hundreds of vulnerable white children for decades all over the UK while the politicians and police knew this was going on.
    This is how it is today we are at war but not only in France but over all Western Europe but what do we get from the politicians?
    As Cameron says every time a massacre takes place “Isam is a religion of Peace” we must not be “xenophobic ” the new buzz word to shut down discussion (islamophobia is now a tired worn out shibboleth) on any rightful criticism of Islam and its followers.
    No wonder despite politicians fears there is a growing anger towards Muslims exacerbated by their near complete silence on their fellow Muslims terrible in human actions.
    When will the people react?
    The test will come in next months French regional elections and the support for Marie le Pens Front Nationale.
    I really hope she does well for at last if she does the people will be expressing their dismay and anger over the endemic attacks taking place.

    • Woman In White

      All West European politicians are to blame for the massacres

      Are you a 9/11 conspiracy theorist maybe ?

      The test will come in next months French regional elections and the support for Marie le Pens Front Nationale.I really hope she does well for at last if she does the people will be expressing their dismay and anger over the endemic attacks taking place.

      Le Pen and his daughter, and their supporters, seem to be about as ignorant as you are concerning the reality of what needs doing — politics-as-business is certainly morally decrepit and intellectually stunted, but the likely reaction of most against the wishy-washy cowardice of socialist & crypto-socialist multiculturalist appeasement is unlikely to materialise as a generalised support for mindless extremism, particularly not in France, not even in its most neglected rural hinterlands.

      The Front National is the party of a disaffected intellectually-impoverished bourgeoisie, who have been neglected in past decades even more than the working and under classes, as well as having their natural religiosity destroyed by indoctrination posing as education, and television posing as culture. But the pride of their patriotism and parochialism remains, and when those are more directly attacked, they won’t be voting for idiots nor extremists, but for the ordinary conservatives.

      UKIP and the Front National are two VERY different parties — you would do very well not to confuse their policies.

      • Sanctimony

        Good grief…. she realises that the Front National and UKIP are different parties… Hallelujah…. we have a seriously gifted political commentator among us ….

        • Woman In White

          Oh sod off you moronic troll.

          • Sanctimony

            Parakeet….

      • Mary Ann

        You hope Mme Le Pen does well, I hope the French don’t give into Deash and she is routed.

        • Woman In White

          You hope Mme Le Pen does well

          I hope the diametric opposite.

          • Sanctimony

            We are all very, very relieved …

          • Mary Ann

            I beg your pardon.

    • Rowenna

      If Islam is the ‘religion of peace’ then why is it that there is not a single country that has a Muslim majority that lives in harmony alongside those of other religions and treats them as equals in all aspects of life?

      How are we to consider Islam the ‘religion of peace’ when its followers cannot even get along with each other? How can we accept Islam in our country when its followers are constantly pushing for their rights and ideologies to take precedence over that of non-Muslims?

      To any Muslim who claims that Islam is a ‘religion of peace’ I ask this question. Would you oppose a government initiative to restrict the availability of halal meat in the UK to speciality shops? Do you advocate halal meat becoming more widely available? If you say yes to either of those questions then you are wanting to assert the rights of your foreign culture here in the UK and that is not acceptable. We give you the right to practice your religion but that should not give you the right to impose your religious beliefs on others.

  • Liberanos

    The sacred primer of islam commands the faithful to destroy the infidel. That this leads to mass murder is both logical and inevitable.

    • Mary Ann

      Ah, but only a very small percentage actually want to do that, and they seem to prefer to kill other Muslims anyway. I wonder how many Muslims Daesh have killed in the last week.

  • Hippograd

    It’s okay, Douglas. Dr Moshe Kantor is on it, already:

    Dr. Moshe Kantor, President of the European Jewish Congress (EJC), was awarded the Officier de la Légion d’Honneur (Officer of the Legion of Honour) by the President of France Francois Hollande. The award is the highest decoration in France, established by Napoleon Bonaparte. For two centuries, it has been presented on behalf of the Head of State to reward the most deserving citizens in all fields of activity. The award was bestowed on Dr. Kantor at the Elysee Palace by President Hollande for leading the fight against Antisemitism, racism, intolerance and xenophobia, promoting interfaith relations and a more tolerant Europe in his roles at the European Jewish Congress, the democratically-elected umbrella organization representing European Jewry. France is in safe hands, already

  • johnb1945

    While it is remiss to deny a link between the edicts of the Qur’an and ISIS, it is also remiss to deny the sorry, ghettoised, marginalised status of France’s Muslims.

    And this sorry state of affairs is not all the fault of France’s Muslims.

    The culture of France and the culture of France’s Muslims have some similarities which, it strikes me, may not be helping the situation.

    Both cultures are chauvinistic and protectionist.

    Both cultures are at least somewhat utopian and self aggrandising.

    And where French Muslims may have a militant reading of the Qur’an, the French polity has a militantly uncompromising, quasi religious attitude towards secularism.

    Put it this way – I would bet that if you wished to be even a nominally practising Muslim in France, living in a ghetto offers the path of least resistance. It might help a little if those who do not want a civil war tried to find some middle ground.

    • Woman In White

      And this sorry state of affairs is not all the fault of France’s Muslims

      Sorry, but this is just not true.

      Muslims in France are not forced to live in Muslim ghettos, but they create those ghettos themselves, thereby cutting their communities off from the rest of the population.

      In the nearby Muslim ghetto in Nice, apart from the area around the Catholic Church which is a safe zone, non-Muslims and Muslims of the wrong sect or Muslims who do not practice, who attempt to live there are liable to be struck by falling bricks, knives, or even have refrigerators toppled onto their heads.

      Dumping zones that were created as cheapo high-rise housing for the ultra poor in the ’70s have become no-go areas for most of the French poor, and I’ve seen MANY French urban areas where a clear border has been created by Muslims between “their” part of town and everyone else’s — cripes, the entire city of Marseilles has been split by them into halves.

      —

      You simply have not the faintest idea what you’re ranting on about, do you.

      —

      Your portrayal of French culture is also a risible caricature.

      • Howard

        Exactly, if Muslim ghettos were the result of Muslims living in Secular countries amongst Secular people, then why… pray tell… Do Muslims live in nothing but ghettos back in their countries?

      • johnb1945

        Bull.

        France’s Muslims are a notable disaster, and there are other European Muslim populations you can compare them to – in Britain, or Germany.

        They are much better integrated on the whole.

      • Sanctimony

        Aaaagh… a quick switch from the Vatican to the Caliphate with an authoritative dose of ‘ I know all about French life and culture…’ Is there nothing this wretched polymath doesn’t have the full SP on… ‘

        I suppose it’s a symptom of the Tourette’s Syndrome from which she suffers ….

        I have just had to order a new pair of ear defenders… she wore out the last ones…

      • johnb1945

        I’m actually quite irritated by your post. That’s rare.

        How can you exist in this state of denial?

        The Muslims of France are the most criminal, extremist, impoverished, ghettoised Muslims in all of Europe.

        How can you possibly say that has nothing to do with the way they are treated? Even Manuel Valls agrees with me.

        Come on. Come back at me, please… I really want to hear it.

        • Woman In White

          Valls is an immigrant himself, as I am BTW, but he’s also a lefty .

          Acts of warfare are not an appropriate reaction to what you claim, and Muslims in France are simply NOT “excluded” from work by anything other than the very same reasons why non-Muslims must struggle too.

          Self-created ghettoisation and the consequences of the Algerian War have created this ghastly situation, not “the way they are treated”.

          The way their youths treat others is often utterly despicable just FYI

          • johnb1945

            You see, you hint at the attitude there when you imply that Valls’ immigrant background invalidates his view.

            I would agree that France imported many Algerians right around the time it was engaged in a brutal war with them. And there was almost immediate friction.

            My whole, entire point is that if you invite (yes, invite…) a different culture into your own, then you can attempt to accommodate it in some way or you can try to assimilate it. France does the former poorly and the latter badly.

            Total assimilation is unrealistic. Within the indigenous peoples of France, there are different regions and cultures and languages.

            I have spent a great deal of time in France and met French Muslims. It’s the little things they tell me – like how foreign funding for mosques is illegal, so there are not enough for everyone to pray in. Consequently people pray in the street, creating a nuisance for others, and get fined for it. These prayers then become a symbol of defiance and a magnet for radicalisers. Or how halal meat is banned in secular schools, or pork is put on the menu even though most pupils are Muslim. That kind of thing is tantamount to taunting.

            We’re not talking about big compromises here, just little ones which could make a significant difference.

          • Woman In White

            You see, you hint at the attitude there when you imply that Valls’ immigrant background invalidates his view.

            ah, no sorry, that wasn’t my intention.

            I simply wanted to suggest that it’s a personal issue for him, which might colour, but not necessarily invalidate, his views on these political/cultural/military questions.

            The “praying in the streets” business was dealt with years ago, but the attitudes that you describe regarding halal and pork are a new phenomenon and the result of the very radicalisation of their youth that has caused this terrorism.

            And I simply CANNOT accept your implicit cause-and-effect mitigation of these Acts of War on the basis of whatever liberal hand-waving guilt-mongery.

          • johnb1945

            I am no liberal.

            I am proud of European culture, I am proud of Christianity and its Jewish parent.

            I am also, however, a pragmatist.

            People waving their hands about, “Muslims this, Muslims that, we should do this, ban that, deport them” etc. etc. get my goat.

            You invited them in (as did we). You’re going to cause a war if you deport them. You will cause a war if you try, by force, to change their culture, opinions, affectations.

            And sure, white, indigenous, secular Judeo-Christian France would win that war, by dint of numbers and technology, but there has to be a better way, because the potential body count, capacity for atrocity and misery in such scenario is unimaginable.

            If 99.9% of French Muslims say that their experience of life in France is one of perpetual racism ranging from the low level to outright, overt discrimination, they are probably not just making this up. It is probably not just an invention of their lurid, collective imaginations.

            You don’t need to beat yourselves up. That’s what liberals do – everything is our fault, radicalism is a simple outgrowth of poverty and discrimination, but… at the same time…. it is undeniable that poverty and discrimination (perceived or real) aids the radicalisers. At the very least it gives them a steady stream of disaffected, under educated bodies with nothing better to do.

            It is staggering to me that 70% of the French prison population is estimated to be Muslim. Did you know that?

            This should be telling you something.

            So while you don’t need to beat yourselves up, you should take a look at yourselves and ask “have we got this right?…..”

          • Woman In White

            You invited them in

            I cannot remember doing so, sorry.

            If 99.9% of French Muslims say that their experience of life in France is one of perpetual racism ranging from the low level to outright, overt discrimination

            … then they’d be lying.

            It is staggering to me that 70% of the French prison population is estimated to be Muslim. Did you know that?

            yeah — there’s a serious problem with the 2nd/3rd generation

          • Sanctimony

            Did you know that?… No, only you know that…. only you know everything ….

          • Woman In White

            Idiot. Troll. Anorak.

          • Sanctimony

            Parrot…

          • Woman In White

            Hypoxically neuro-deprived manic-obsessive bachi-bouzouk.

          • Sanctimony

            Nurse…. Valium… quick !!!!!!!!

          • Woman In White

            You are a moron.

          • johnb1945

            I didn’t mean you literally, I meant the French polity (and the British).

            Do you really think all those Muslims are simply lying? That their claim should be discounted? Perhaps it is exaggerated, but I bet there is some truth to it. Your denial of this possibly hints at (one of) the problems?

            In Britain, where we can legally ask people about their religion, we have accurate stats for religiosity of prisoners and about 14% of prisoners are Muslims.

            That still makes British Muslims unusually criminal, but nothing like the French.

            Question: – Most British Muslims come from Pakistan and Bangladesh, the very orthodox Deobandi tradition. Do you think they are somehow different from French Muslims? More liberal in some way?

            Have you seen how Deobandis behave in Pakistan or Afghanistan?

            We certainly have problems with some of our Muslims, but it seems you are on the verge of anarchy in France.

            Why?

          • Woman In White

            Do you really think all those Muslims are simply lying?

            No, I simply think that your 99.9% thing is grossly exaggerated to the point of caricature.

            I’ll refrain from offering opinions regarding the intricacies of Islamic sectarianism.

          • Sanctimony

            The only grotesque caricature on here is you… Gerald Scarfe would have had a field day, portraying you as a hybrid of Medusa and one of the coven from Macbeth…

          • Woman In White

            Whereas you are the portrayal of your own caricature.

          • johnb1945

            My question bears no relation to Islamic sectarianism and the difference between the Deobandi tradition of most British Muslims and the North African tradition of most French.

            FYI – Deobandi Islam is very illiberal. It was born as a form of resistance to “Christianisation” during the colonial period and has theological links to Wahhabism.

            What I am asking is why our Muslim prison population is about 14% of total, and yours is 70%?

            Is it somehow that your Muslims are just worse and less liberal and more radicalised than ours, because I don’t think so?

          • E.I.Cronin

            Perhaps France isn’t making an effort to encourage Muslims from leaving Islam – that would be a far more productive policy. Making it clear apostates are safe, supported by the wider community and made welcome. That would be a far healthier response than submitting to every minority demand. I didn’t realise they banned foreign funding of mosques – a wise act

          • johnb1945

            That’s what you’re trying to do. At least get them to leave or never ever think about Salafism.

          • E.I.Cronin

            Yes this is an option we should try – it would require a resurgence of patriotism which it may be too late for – but openly encouraging Muslims to leave Islam and emphasising we will all live safer, more stable lives as a result could work! Its an idea definitely worth introducing into public debate.

          • johnb1945

            I don’t think you can go in and directly tell them we want them to leave Islam but Islam has had a free ride. It’s a deeply ingrained faith and a way of life, and in my experience even those who leave it feel some kind of affection for it. It asserts some kind of influence on their outlook. True free speech is the answer.

            And I you talk with Muslims, be polite. Opening up with “Muhammed was a paedophile” or “Muhammed was a war criminal” – the kind of comment which appears on this forum regularly, will just cause offence.

            Even the lapsed Muslims I know have mixed feelings about Muhammed, and that reflects the conflict they’ve had to go through internally. Brought up to believe unquestioningly that he is the most perfect example of humanity then concluding that he was not, and so on.

          • E.I.Cronin

            I believe very few people here would say that face to face. When I hear extreme statements here – I hear my fellow westerners justifiable rage, frustration and resentment at their culture being vandalised. It’s venting and I often vent myself. Perhaps encouraging Muslims to leave Islam in a kind, positive way is the best course. It’s worth exploring for sure. Thanks for the dialogue John.

          • johnb1945

            Got to resist venting. In a sense, ISIS is a form of venting, grievance based BS.

            Yep, they take it to nth degree, but the perceived destruction of Islam by corrupting western forces is exactly how it all began.

          • E.I.Cronin

            Hmm… i would never compare the understandably angry but fundamentally decent and peaceful people here at the Spec to IS in any way. Here is one of the few places people can talk openly and freely about the loss of their homeland and heritage. And the more I read about IS the more it’s clear they are deeply religous men enacting ancient doctrines that go back far beyond any contact with Western nations. That’s not to deny the repercussions of UK/US/European involvement

          • Woman In White

            the kind of comment which appears on this forum regularly

            … and yet is generally aimed at Catholics without a second’s hesitation nor qualm.

          • johnb1945

            Huh?

            A few may insult the clergy for being paedophiles, yet others may claim Christianity in general is a bunch of pixie worship, but I haven’t read many posts suggesting every single Roman Catholic without exception is some kind of dangerous ghettoised subversive who cannot ever fit in and should be deported then bombed.

            I have read that kind of stuff about Muslims.

          • Woman In White

            I haven’t read many posts suggesting every single Roman Catholic without exception is some kind of dangerous ghettoised subversive who cannot ever fit in

            Then you’ve either not been round long enough, or haven’t been paying attention 🙁

          • johnb1945

            The worst you will see is some idiocy along the lines of ‘Catholic priests? Child molesters.’

          • Woman In White

            Nope, that’s just the daily fare — not the worst, not by a long shot.

          • johnb1945

            Banning foreign funding of mosques is a wise act, ours have been funded by the salafising Gulf Arabs, and their agenda is well known.

            But there is a caveat – Muslims want to pray. That’s their religion, 5 times a day.

            Don’t make them do it in the gutter. And don’t fine them when they do it there either. This is what happened in France, and intentional or no, is degrading.

            Accept that saying a prayer is not an unreasonable wish, and give them somewhere warm, comfortable and indoors to do it.

            We have prayer rooms and all sorts in this country, in France that’s far less prominent because of secularism.

            It is small gestures like this which can stop people becoming disaffected and drifting into the hands of militants.

          • E.I.Cronin

            I understand but the problem is the majority find special prayer rooms culturally invasive and street prayer threatening. I’d prefer we had the confidence to encourage practicing Muslims to confine prayer to the home and mosque. Assimilation instead of accommodation. .Public prayer is not a cultural tradition in Christian nations, I rememberca Christian telling me Jesus criticised a man for ostentatious public prayer. Its a tradition we should defend but make it clear they are very welcome to practice their faith in private.

          • johnb1945

            Yep. The sermon on the mount.

            French Muslims only prayed in the street because there was no space in the mosques or prayer rooms. That was my point. and when they prayed in the street they got fined. That is a legitimate grievance as far as I am concerned.

            They’re not asking to pray in public, just somewhere secluded that they don’t get rained on, cause a nuisance, or get fined. And really, it should not be too much to give them that.

            Islam requires you to pray 5 times a day. If you cannot pray because your workplace has nowhere to do it, then you might just stay home, in your ghetto, unemployed.

            BTW – I can assure you that real deep fundie Muslims are about as exotic and weird to the average Muslim as god bothering Christians are to us. The average Muslim is typically a bit suspicious of the salafist who has spent time in Saudi “studying” and whose uber veiled wife never leaves the house unless she’s 5 paces behind him.

          • E.I.Cronin

            I hope to see our nations recovering their self-respect and confidence to the point where we can say – these our our traditions and boundaries. If you cannot respect them then this nation is not the right one for you to live in. Hopefully a generous voluntary repatriation scheme will be possible in the future – like an amicable divorce.

          • johnb1945

            Yeah…. I’m sceptical about the voluntary generous bit. Salafists would see that as a chance to acquire weapons, and these things have a habit of washing up back on your doorstep.

            I think we’re far off repatriations.

            In some ways, ISIS are doing the liberal modernisers of Islam a massive favour. ISIS is the Salafi end game. Out of 2.5 million Muslims maybe 1,000 have decided that’s the life for them. Put that in perspective, these people are certainly a pain, but 1,000 out of 2.5 million have voted with their feet….. it’s not a lot.

          • E.I.Cronin

            We’re already there – Middle Eastern gun crime in Sydneys’ Sth West and suburbs in Melbourne has been happening for years. Repatriation could be an option offered to quietist, devout Muslims of all sects. Hopefully it would steadily reduce our Muslim population combined with immigration restrictions. A pipe dream now but as conflict accelerates and people turn away from progressive parties it has a chance of becoming reality.

          • jeremy Morfey

            Never mind about religious tolerance, if a Muslim visited my home, then I’d offer a clean prayer mat and an undisturbed place as a common courtesy, same as I would offer a cup of tea.

            I can imagine a workplace might have an issue to taking time off to pray, and a bit unfair to those who don’t. It’s a bit like smokers having a ten-minute f*g break several times a day. Best way to tackle this is to offer to make up the time during Ramadan (no lunch break needed) or coming in for Christmas and Easter, when others are off.

          • Woman In White

            Never mind about religious tolerance, if a Muslim visited my home, then I’d offer a clean prayer mat and an undisturbed place as a common courtesy, same as I would offer a cup of tea.

            Then you are a politically-correct liberal nutcase, as the typical Muslim would expect no such kow-towing from anyone other than a fool.

          • jeremy Morfey

            Yet you don’t know me any more than you know the “typical Muslim”.

            A dear friend of mine is an Iranian doctor, whom I have never met, but have exchanged messages with her for the last 13 years. If one day she and her husband make it to my home, then of course I will extend the warmest welcome.

            Every third Sunday in the month I lead the singing of the following words “Glory to God in the highest, and on Earth, peace to people of good will”. The English words were changed in 2011 and this is the latest translation from Latin. Between 1973 and 2011, the English translation went “Glory to God in the highest and peace to his people on Earth”. Note that Pope Benedict’s scholars said “people” of good will, not “Christians” of good will, nor even “God’s people” of good will. If the conservative Pope Benedict XVI can suggest that Christian welcome is extended beyond just God’s people, then who am I to argue?

            If a Muslim comes to my home in a spirit of good will, and is true and honourable (which I accept some aren’t, and the Daesh gangsters are despicable), then yes the cup of tea and the prayer mat is waiting. If I am invited to a Muslim home in good will, then I shall bring my rosary beads, and if they wish to join me in prayers, then good on them. A friend of mine used to invite me to his Baptist Bible study group, introducing me as “The Papist” and telling me he’s hidden the matches. I was always given the warmest welcome.

            If however, anyone turns up who is not of good will, then no prayer mat for their false idol of hate.

          • Woman In White

            Yet you don’t know me any more than you know the “typical Muslim”

            I responded to what you said, and ordinary Muslims are a part of my daily life.

            A dear friend of mine is an Iranian doctor, whom I have never met

            … contrary to your own experiences seemingly, and you should not expect that the courtesies one might extend to the Persian intelligentsia might be “typical”.

          • Sanctimony

            Ghettoisation… that’s a new one just FYI… is it some obscure form of FGM ?

          • Woman In White

            Your public displays of crass ignorance are matched only by your stalking and trolling.

      • Sanctimony

        Make sure you are under the next fridge !

    • Rowenna

      Why is middle ground necessary in France exactly? There exists a variety of countries who already have a dominant, militant form of Islam that Muslims can go to live in if that is what they want.

      Meanwhile France is the only ‘French’ country in the world – why should French people have to compromise in their culture to accommodate those who come to France and want to bring their foreign culture with them?

      I have spent my life being tolerant and have never been the slightest bit racist – perhaps my views are changing. If my views are changing it is not because of the colour of someone’s skin or where they originate from, it is simply because I am English and resent our politicians and the establishment forever preaching tolerance and telling us we should ‘compromise’ for the sake of political correctness when the outcome is that we are effectively being subjugated to another culture. I am proud of my cultural heritage and value it as much as any other culture – all cultures should be allowed to thrive in their own lands.

      • johnb1945

        France can obviously do whatever it wants, but considering that it has a large population of legally naturalised/ home born Muslims it might be wise to consider how best to integrate them. Clearly right now there is a problem.

        I’m not talking about big compromises.

        I’m talking about the tiniest gestures that make the biggest difference – allowing them Halal food in secular schools, building them a mosque to pray in so they don’t flood onto the street then get fined.

        And if virtually every single French Muslim says that racism is a day to day reality which stops them even getting jobs….. then there’s likely to be some truth in this…. and perhaps it should be addressed.

        etc. etc.

        • Rowenna

          How does your vision compare to what is happening in the UK?

          – English school now only serves halal meat – non-Muslims who object to this are left to pack lunches.

          – Christians in the UK persecuted by Muslims for their apostasy while the police turn a blind eye and do not investigate

          – Hundreds of white girls sexually assaulted over years while the police turn a blind eye because they do not want to be racist

          – UK judge gives a rapist a harsher sentence on the grounds that his victim was Muslim and ‘Muslim girls suffer more’.

          – English people being forced to move from their homes due to their communities being increasingly dominated by Muslims buying up properties near to their mosques and setting up Muslim communities – Muslim shops with names in Arabic to the point that the long time English resident feels like a stranger in their own home.

          – Trojan horse scandal

          – Muslim hate-preachers being allowed to preach freely, Muslim imams and community leaders being allowed to arrange meetings to discuss how to influence British values to better reflect those of Islam while those who ‘offend’ Islam / Muslims with the criticism are shouted down (at best) and / or arrested (at worst) for hate-speach.

          This is far from an exhaustive list. What you are suggesting is the same as has happened in other countries that have tried to accommodate their Islamic community – the country gradually becomes increasingly Islam to the point where it dominates.

          The problem is that many Muslims identify first and foremost with their religion and not with their nationality. They do not share a cultural heritage with the French. Why do you think it is that other nationalities and religions do not have the same integration problems as Muslims? Before you point to unemployment statistics perhaps you should understand that the culture they come from. They are not the same and it is insulting to both Muslims and non-Muslims to suggest that they are. They have their own set of values that are mostly different from our own and their own cultures (culture does vary depending on their home country). You will be hard pushed to find a Muslim family who attend Mosque regularly and yet are happy for their daughter to marry a non-Muslim.

          I used to be of a similar mind to yourself in some respects. I decided to do some research and I went straight to source. I talked to Muslims colleagues, I looked up information online from the Muslim community talking to each other… I suggest you do your own research because if there is one thing that is clear it is that our politicians are either ignorant or deliberately lying.

          A culture is the sum of a community of individuals who develop a cohesive way of life over time and have a shared heritage. You cannot put a mix of two radically different cultures together and tell them to get along – at best you will have an entirely new culture that is watered down and reflects neither culture well. Most often you get parallel cultures…

          What is so wrong in embracing our differences and allowing separate cultures to thrive in their own lands?

          • johnb1945

            I married a Muslim.
            I know all of her Muslim friends. Not a single one is religious. They don’t do eid, they don’t go to mosque, they don’t wear hijab, some of them are gay, they eat bacon, drink, some of them have married out, in churches etc. etc.

            Their parents are religious. And leaving the culture has cost some of them dear – it’s a taboo.

            And that’s something I’d ask you to consider.
            You think a Muslim is a Muslim, when in fact there are devout salafists, lapsed Muslims, nominal Muslims and everything in between. Loads of them, literally, value freedom of conscience, getting a job, going to university etc. Loads of Muslims women do not want to be enslaved by some unfaithful arranged husband who doesn’t love them and may even be violent. Loads of Muslim men want to find their own wife, even if she’s not a Muslim, rather than marrying some 2nd degree relative. Lots Muslims are gay and want to say so freely.

            Their culture, however, asserts a strong bond of retention. There’ a great deal of shame, honour and expectation that they are bought up with from childhood.

            Leaving it isn’t easy. It can be equivalent to coming out to your ultra-homophobic parents – they might beat you up and you’ll never see them again.

            If the alternative to their culture is a bunch of pink, drunk chavs who think they are suicide bombers, then they won’t come.

            And making them come to our culture is key. If you are prepared to compromise a bit, then more will come. If you don’t force them to pray on the street then fine them for doing so, if you allow them to eat halal meat, then integration becomes attractive to the marginally religious Muslim who wants to partially observe.

            There’s obviously a line, but I hope you see where I’m coming from.

          • Sanctimony

            Thank you for injecting some perspective into this blog and managing to express your views above all the yelling and screaming from a notorious virago on this blog…

          • Woman In White

            Idiot.

          • Sanctimony

            Parrot…. African Grey, perhaps…

          • Woman In White

            Stalker.

          • Rowenna

            You are making assumptions about me that are untrue. You say I ‘think a Muslim is a Muslim’ yet you failed to recognise that in my previous comment I specifically mentioned ‘practicing Muslims who attend mosque regularly’ as a term of reference. Non-practicing Muslims are not really Muslims at all and their fellow practicing Muslims will consider them apostates. If someone is not a practicing Muslim and does not attend Mosque they are effectively non-Muslim. Such non-practicing Muslims will be the minority in Muslim enclaves and so not relevant to the discussion.

            You suggest that compromise is key to ‘coming out of their culture’ I disagree. Am sorry but there has to be a line and for every compromise we make those practicing Muslims reach out and take more to the point that is manifesting itself in white, non-Muslims becoming second class citizens in their own country – which is reflective of Islam’s attitude to disbelivers itself.

            Right now there are those who are fleeing persecution (FGM, forced marriage, being Christian or wanting to leave Islam) and due to the sheer number of compromises that we are being asked to make in the name of ‘tolerance’ they are not being supported. As mentioned in my last comment, a Muslim apostate who converted to Christianity is being persecuted in the UK by Muslims and receiving no help from the police in holding accountable those who are committing such hate-crimes against him. What is the point of compromise if the main outcome is for those Muslims who wish to leave Islam (or those who come from Muslim majority countries who are non-Muslim) remain persecuted and vulnerable?

            I have no problems with Muslims eating halal meat but I do not think it is right that their ‘right’ to halal meat should over ride our right not to eat halal meat. Yet that is what is happening. Halal meat is increasingly being served in schools, prisons, restaurants and sold in our supermarkets etc. It is becoming the default and that is offensive to our culture that is not based on Islam.

            If people wish to leave Islam or become non-practicing Muslims who partially observe then they can do so however they must respect the culture of the country they have chosen to live in if they wish to remain.

          • johnb1945

            You hardly talk about “Practising Muslims” in any of your posts, just Muslims.

            What about partially practising Muslims? This is probably the best description of most British Muslims. They observe a few things, but not all.

            Do we drive them back to the ghetto, into the sphere of the radicalisers, or do we accommodate their desire to be partially observant and invite them into our culture?

            Please consider that most of our home grown Jihadis in Syria were, historically, very bad, non-Observant Muslims, but something in the ultra literalist narrative proved more attractive to them than going all way down the road of secularisation they had previously embarked on.

            I’m telling you that making our culture more hostile to them is not going to help. This is the problem France has.

          • Rowenna

            Well I have referenced ‘practicing Muslims’ today in a response (may not have been to you but I thought it was) and now you have my full outline of practicing vs non-practicing Muslims.

            As for the partially practicing Muslims I would suggest they have a good look at the Koran and consider what their beliefs are because the middle ground is unlikely to continue to exist. I don’t particularly care if they become practicing Muslims or non-Muslims – either way the answer is the same.

            The fact is that many ‘home grown’ Jihadis were originally non-observant Muslims is more a reflection of the freedom that we allow imams and religious leaders in the country than anything else. If they remain separate from the Muslim community and do not attend mosque then they are highly unlikely to become ‘radicalised’ unless they are just a violent person looking for a cause which allows them freedom to act our their psychopathic tendancies.

            In terms of our national identity, our cultural heritage and our nations security (nation is a population with a shared history / heritage) then it is best if all practicing Muslims left and all mosques abolished. Those who remain can be passive Muslims (they won’t need mosques as they do not attend), convert or otherwise be who they want to be. Without mosques and without imams and Muslim religious preachers in the country it is highly unlikely that we would continue to produce ‘home grown jihadis’.

            Is what I am suggesting radical… yes. I would not have suggested it a few years ago. However the fact is that multiculturalism has failed and our leaders have demonstrated that when it comes to compromising with other cultures our own culture is consistently sacrificed and I am no longer willing to support that. There are a huge number of Muslims in the world and relatively few white, native British people around – I would like to preserve what we have left and be allowed to continue to exist as a culture and as a race. Are we superior to others? No of course not. Do we need to hate others? No we don’t. Should we respect other cultures? Yes for sure. Should we commit cultural genocide? Absolutely not – but that is exactly the path we are on.

          • johnb1945

            That is not religious freedom.

            Religious freedom is a high ideal, you better think carefully before abolishing it….

            And how do you arrive at the conclusion there will be no more partially observant Muslims? Presumably meaning there will be only those who are entirely secularised and those who are salafists?

            That’s a serious wellspring of identity politics you are envisaging there.

            What we actually want is for Muslims to be less literalist, less observant, more secular and more integrated with everyone else. That inevitably means that some syncretic form of British Islam mixing Islamic rites and philosophies combined with belief in Christian secularism. That’s what we actually want.

            Many Muslims are already there.

          • Rowenna

            What ‘we’ want is nothing of the sort. It may be what ‘you’ want but do not claim to speak for others.

            Freedom of any kind is an ideal but the problem is where do you draw the line on freedom? Is freedom the equivilent of a ‘free for all’ for everyone to be able to do anything they like? In our society we draw the line at violence to others – that is not allowed. So already there are limits in place. For Muslims to practice their religion freely in the UK is not compatible with our own culture so whose freedoms have to give? Does the Muslim right to religious freedom trump my right to live in a British culture?

            I would suggest you read the following article, it is about a woman who lived in an area where the community changed from English to Muslim and eventually felt she had to leave
            http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/immigration/9831912/I-feel-like-a-stranger-where-I-live.html

            Where was the freedom of this woman? On what grounds does a population from another culture have the right to take over communities in our country?

            Your perspective is one of how best to accommodate Muslims and how best to ‘moderate’ them. My perspective is one of reclaiming our own culture – this is not just about Muslims for me, it applies to EU citizens that have moved to the UK as well. The latter group does not have such a disparate culture to our own, there is certainly more overlap, however where mass immigration is in place they still erode our own cultural heritage and national identity.

            I am all for people having freedoms both religious and otherwise. My point is that increasingly the freedoms of those none native to our lands are restricting the freedoms of the native population and that is not acceptable and must be stopped and reversed.

          • johnb1945

            The reason I take the approach I do is because I am a pragmatist at heart.

            Kicking out the Muslims, or somehow shutting them down, is just going to cause unbelievable problems. A war, potentially.

            I believe moderating Muslims will work, doubtless with a few hiccups.

            Dispossessing them, outlawing them and booting them out might eventually result in the Muslim free paradise you want, but not before you’ve spent a huge sum of money, caused vast amounts of human misery, probably had some kind of economic collapse and killed quite a few people too.

          • Rowenna

            Moderating Muslims has failed big time… it has had enough time, we have tried but it is not working because many do not wish to integrate.

            Since you have such well defined opinions on the subject perhaps you could explain what your answer is to those in the Muslim community who do not want to become ‘moderate’ and do not want to integrate with the culture of their host country? Do you even acknowledge they exist?

            War is not something I want but my ancestors have gone to war on many occasions to protect our culture and way of life for future generations. I would rather have war than allow this country to be colonised by Islam. Considering the number of people who share my opinion on this point you may need to decide whether your desire to avert war via attempting to ‘moderate’ muslims is missing the point – because an increasing number of people have had enough of standing by while Muslims out-breed us and our leaders tell us to ‘compromise’ (aka give up our freedoms for the sake of peaceful co-existance with Muslims).

            Freedom of speach is being increasingly restricted when it comes to Islam and Muslims yet it has not been restricted for Islam or Muslims (they can say anything they like). It would seem that Islam is the only religion where its freedom trumps that of our right to freedom of speach. If it is war you want to avoid then you are going the wrong way about it.

          • johnb1945

            Your last point is a good one, and recent hate speech laws are ridiculous, but I do believe we’re getting to the stage where a cry of “Islamophobia” no longer shuts down debate. We’ll see what happens with Pastor James McConnell, although Richard Dawkins has been decrying the evil of Islam for years.

            As for moderating Muslims being a failure? Most Muslims have moderated and continue to do so. Most do not live as they would in a rural Mirpuri village.

            It’s work in progress, however. I want to se government policy which encourages destruction of the ghetto, and the best thing it to incentivise change rather than force it.

            How about having a bit of faith in our ideals and their attractiveness to others rather than rushing to declare war in their defence? Huh?

          • Rowenna

            What are ‘our’ ideals exactly? My ideals are to encourage and support diversity of culture and that cannot happen when cultures are expected to live on top of each other and ‘compromise’. My ideals are that all races should have the right to exist on this planet. Your ideals seem to support the notion that white people should be wiped out by multiculturalism while every other damn race on the continent is allowed to retain their identity and ethnicity.

            It is quite clear that ‘your’ ideals and ‘my’ ideals are not the same and I object to you trying to represent them as such.

            Your idea of a ‘work in progress’ will be ‘in progress’ until there is no longer any British culture or British values left. I suspect my idea of ‘British values’ (which are traditional) are quite different from your idea of ‘British values’ (which seem to be held by the minority). Sorry but this experiment is over. I am not interested in surrendering my culture or my heritage, to do so would be to betray everything my ancestors fought to protect and a betrayal of the cultural heritage that I shall pass onto my children and grand-children and for them to do the same.

            It takes generations for a family from a foreign culture to adapt to a new one and they can only do so in a community that is dominated by their host country’s culture. That is not possible with mass immigration.

            I notice that you failed to address my question of what you think should happen to those Muslims who do not wish to integrate…?

          • johnb1945

            It’s a form of universal humanism which has evolved from a wellspring of Christianity and is secular, valuing free speech, democracy, freedom of conscience, rule of law, human life, free enterprise etc. etc. etc.

          • Rowenna

            Universal humanism is little more than an ideology that far from being ‘proven’ as a workable concept has an accumulation of evidence indicating it does not work. It does not acknowledge basic human instinct and behaviour. Meanwhile the idea that it has evolved from Christiantity is disengenuous at best.

            What is most disconcerting about your ideology of universal humanism is that it is not democratic (as it claims) but totalitarian in nature. Those who espouse such ideals may preach democracy on the one hand but with the other hand they impose muliticulturalism on populations who do not want it and do not vote for it. Meanwhile progressives such as yourself try and force democracy on societies that do not want democracy.

            Universal humanism is one of the most hypocritical concepts that I have ever come across and its supporters seem obsessed with their own moral superiority above any form of genuine compassion.

            Who and what gives you the right to tell people how they should live? If universal humanism as an ideology is to prove itself to have any integrity at all then you should form a political party and get yourselves elected to government by outlining exactly what you want to see happen in this country (yes, in real, honest terms). When you have done that then you have made a huge step towards bringing about the very ideals you claim to hold. Until that time comes I suggest you let your comrades know that if they truely hold such ideals they need to step back and stop interfering in the policies of a democratic country otherwise they will be the instigators of civil war.

            As far as I am concerned if there is to be any civil unrest it should not be against Islam (afterall most Muslims are here legitimately) but against those who brought them into the country and have worked hard to undermine our cultural heritage and national identity. Once we have removed you all from positions of power and influence then I am sure we can sort out the Muslims in the country without further turmoil.

          • E.I.Cronin

            Brilliant, thanks for articulating how we feel so powerfully.

          • Mary Ann

            The French government is sending out advice to their schools about ensuring that the children do not blame the Muslims in their communities for what happened in Paris, trouble with children is they tend to think in black and white and blame all Muslims for the behaviour of a few, some of their parents are just as bad.

          • Woman In White

            I’m sure your lefty hand-wringing will be of much comfort to the families of the Bataclan murdered.

          • Mary Ann

            As I understand it, there has been far less of a knee-jerk reaction from them than there has been from speccy readers.

          • E.I.Cronin

            John the problem is even if a nation makes every effort to accommodate, or rather submit to Islamic customs (as Australian elites eagerly have) the same processes of extremism, contempt and self-imposed alienation occur. In an earlier post I quote a young Muslim male describing how literalist Imams preach rejection of their host culture. I understand you have a personal stake in the issue and I appreciate your comments, but a political and media elite have dictated to western nations that they should welcome a fundamentally incompatible culture they never asked for at great cost. Im sure you know there is far more to being English than being a drunk chav, but I hear Muslims repeating this reduction which is as absurd as saying all Muslims are terrorists. I believe Western cultures must now act in self-preservation and begin to reverse the damage Multiculturalism and mass immigration have inflicted or they will gradually slide into extinction. If they do choose to survive, it will be a painful and more than likely violent process but that is our only option. Peaceful accommodation hasn’t worked.

          • Mary Ann

            We will gradually slide into extinction because our birth rate is well below the replacement rate.

          • E.I.Cronin

            Our low birth rate is one factor in our higher living standards. An aging population and extended working life is something we must adapt to. Trying to breed competively will result in the same disastrous poverty and unemployment that’s contributed to the human tide from the developing world spilling into Europe. All there will be is the 3rd world. And Im talking about cultural extinction more – the result of an insistent self loathing embodied in the Labour Party and The Greens.

          • Rowenna

            Exactly. There are many who have not had more children out of a sense of responsibility more so than because they didn’t want more. I know a number of women who would have liked more children but didn’t feel they had the ‘right’ to in an over-populated world.

          • Rowenna

            From a food perspective, our country is only able to support a population of 40 million. Our countryside is an important part of our heritage and the more our population grows the more countryside we lose (our country, especially England has a very dense population in comparison to the rest of Europe and many other countries in the world). Countryside is important to facilitate the range of different communities and environments necessary for a population to thrive.

            With this in mind it is actually quite natural that our birth rate is below population replacement level. It is quite likely that should our population drop to 45 – 50 million it will balance out to replacement level. I grew up with a generation who were told that the world is increasingly over populated and that we need to take responsibility for the future. On such grounds I know many who have curtailed the number of children they have had because they felt it wrong / greedy to bring more children into an overpopulated world.

            Now we are being told that despite the world population continuing to boom we should accept populations that did not take responsibility for their fertilty into our lands because our population is falling… it makes no sense.

            We are better off with a smaller population and ideally we should quit the mass immiration and aim for net emmigration instead until our population level drops.

          • Pioneer

            If the birth rate is below replacement, what evidence do you have that will lead to extinction?

            Not lefty memes, but actual evidence.

          • johnb1945

            Yes, I get that. I agree, multiculturalism is a failure. And mass immigration is a failure imposed by lefties who know immigrants enter at the bottom and consequently vote left.

            I know this.

            Everything I have said relates to our interactions with the Muslims who are already here. I do not think we should be importing more, and that includes intake of refugees from Syria.

            2 generations in, our indigenous Muslim population is at a cross roads. It’s a cross roads I have been able to observe.

            There are vast numbers of secularised, essentially disbelieving Muslims and they occupy a kind of limbo. They are disapproved of, pressurised and even threatened by their parents, siblings and various shouty commoonitee shalwar kameezers on the one hand, yet on the other they see a lot of prejudice from whitey. I’ve seen it with my own eyes, or rather heard it… the term Islamophobia is much abused and literally meaningless, so let’s just call it sectarian racism. People I know who are not Muslim except by background called “Jihadis” and told they should be bombed to destruction. It happens. You may not believe it, but it is a regular feature of life for them.

            You say English culture has a lot more than pink, drunk chavs to offer.

            True. I agree.

            We should be demonstrating that.

            If we present it as something a little loose, a little racist and hostile, then these people will revert to what they know and remain in the sphere of conservative parents, and worse, radicals.

            Read the comments on this board, and imagine how they would look to a partially observant, agnostic Muslim.
            Try to understand how sensitive this is for some of them. They may have been brought up in self contained communities. For all the “Allahu Akbar” bluster, please do not underestimate the total lack of confidence they feel when viewing the outside world and effect that a strong culture of honour and shame has on them.

            Basically, we need to make it easy for them to leave, otherwise they won’t……
            If we make it easy for them to leave, I’ve seen with my own eyes a dam ready to burst.

          • E.I.Cronin

            That’s great to hear. Reply below on how we could respond to Muslims in the West.

          • Mr B J Mann

            G-ys didn’t ask for it to be made easy for them to come out, they just came out and demanded to be treated as equal, despite their parents.

            They, and blacks claimed phobias, as saults, ki llings….., but the b1acks held their marches too.

            Even the “liberal” lefties are forever marching and whining about discrimination and brutality, not to mention G-d.

            So with so many brown g-y, atheist, lefty-“liberal” ex-Muslims about, and so many “progressive” lefty-“liberal”, multi-culti, irreligious whitey-Brits supporting them, not to mention the C of E:

            What on earth is stopping them coming out?

          • Mary Ann

            For the nth time FGM is not Islamic, it is a north African practice to keep women down which dates back to the Pharaohs and is also practised by Christians.

          • Rowenna

            My reference to FGM was specifically relating to those fleeing persecution and in no way did I imply that it was solely practiced by Muslims. That said, you would be hard pushed to find native Western Europeans who are Christian and practice FGM.

            I can understand your frustration however the problem is that Islam is a political ideology that is being pursued and the crossover between Islam as a religion and the cultural norms of those who practice Islam is vast and complex. The outcome is pretty much the same though – where Muslims try and assert themselves in our country and pursue changes to our society and way of life to better reflect their religion / culture.

          • Mary Ann

            You would be hard pushed to find Western Europeans practising it at all, the ancestors of Western Europeans left Africa before the time of the Pharaohs.

          • Rowenna

            That’s my point. However those fleeing from it to Europe should be able to do so and yet they continue to be persecuted in Europe because Europe is accepting so many migrants that we cannot protect them as individuals. Those who are genuinely fleeing persecution are not being protected and many have it worse once they have reached Europe than they had in their country of origin.

          • Mary Ann

            There are so many of them at the moment it will take some time to sort them out, Don’t know what people think the governments should have done, putting them into new boats and shipping them back wasn’t very practical.

          • Rowenna

            If we had implemented a solid policy of deportation to the UN camps then they would have stopped making the journey to Europe pretty damn fast. We can implement such policy at any time by closing our borders and beginning deportations. Some countries have taken adverts out in the newspapers of the countries they are originating from to positive effect while others have made similar efforts using online media.

            The problem is that the UN refugee camps were running out of money to supply food to the refugees and instead of our governments reaching into their pockets (specifically Germany) and handing the UN more money to support the refugees in the camps Merkel basically said ‘if you sell everything you own and pay the people traffickers to risk your necks and survive the journey across Europe we will look after you in Germany’.

            The fact that Germany is now spending billions of euros to accommodate and support the swarms of migrants is hypocritical when instead they could have given the UN millions to do the same without asking them to sell up and risk their lives to get to Germany.

            Call me cynical but far from what the governments should have done, our governments did the worst thing possible – at least in terms of the best interests of the genuine refugees (who are most at risk by implementing such an approach) and their own citizens – although such a decision may have been in the long-term best interests of a political agenda and / or finding cheap labour sources for capitalists.

          • Christopher Burd

            It may not be quranic or universal in the Muslim world, but it’s been associated with Islamic culture for a long time. One of the earliest Christian critics of Islam named the “excision of women” as one of the three great vices of the Muslims.

            I don’t know if this site permits links, but this blog post is a very neutral and comprehensive account of FGM in Muslim history.
            http://klingschor.blogspot.ca/2014/10/female-circumcision-fgm-in-islam.html

          • Mary Ann

            It makes a lot of sense, some Christians go to church every day and some once a week, some for hatching matching and dispatching and some never, and a large percentage of our so called Christian population are atheists.

          • Mr B J Mann

            So you DIDN’T marry a Musl!m.

            An you DON’T know any Musl!ms.

            You married and mix with Western “liberals”!

            Which is why you think Musl!ms are the same as you.

            Strange how “liberals” never think that waycists, and b!gots, and h0mophobes are people just like them too.

            They might then begin to understand society is already diverse enough!

          • Mr B J Mann

            And, yes, there is obviously a line.

            But then again there is the even more obvious fact that “liberals” keep shifting it.

            The guy that proved smoking k!lls was adamant that passive smoke was harmless.

            Yet first they demanded smoke-free areas in pubs.

            Then £Billions, literally, in the latest extract and filtration systems.

            Then that smokers be s3gregated and !solated and c0nfined to smokers’ areas.

            Then that they be ban!shed to special smokers’ areas outside and away from the rest of society.

            So that if even a smoking landlord with 100% smoking staff and 100% smoking customers wanted a f-g with his pint in the Smoking Bar of his own pub: it was !llegal.

            Now, a smoker is breaking the 1aw if a 16 year old smoker lights up in his car.

            And they want to extend the bans on smoking in hospital grounds, parks city centres…..

            And complaining that even when smokers smoke in the privacy of their own homes the smoke is drifting out of their windows and even permeating through the walls?!!!

            Ever heard the expression give them an inch and they’ll take a mile?!

            All Musl!ms might not be m!litant fundam3ntalists.

            They might only be a tiny minority.

            But it is them you are pandering to.

            Neimoller wasn’t saying you should pander to communists and J-ws, and meet them half way.

            He wasn’t even saying you should pander to ev!l fanat!cs and meet them half way.

            He was saying that if you pander to the little, not that fanat!cal, demands, and keep on meeting them half way, before long, you won’t be meeting them in the pub, or out in the street:

            They will be knocking on YOUR door!!!

        • Mr B J Mann

          When the Poles (who saved the day in the Battle of Britain) were stranded in the UK when the “Allies” gave their country to Stalin, and any who were foolish enought to try to return home were shot or sent to the Gulags, the rest built their own churches and community centres, and got on with integrating and assimilating, even though they lived in ghettos.

          Similarly the Sikhs.

          Why do you want the Musl!ms treated in such a discriminatory way by giving them special treatment?!

    • Mr Marginalia

      Thank you for trying to shift the blame away from Islam, John. It’s an important job and it’s becoming difficult as more and more evidence piles against the walls of political correctness, but you’re holding the fort. A true stalwart.

      Nevermind the fact that Muslims really do have a choice not to live in ghettos or even to abandon their backwards beliefs if they’re bothered so much by well-deserved criticism they receive. It is absolutely essential that it be the fault of their hosts, the French people, for not bending over backwards to accommodate them.

      • johnb1945

        And thanks for suggesting I don’t think Islam has a role in this.

        It does.

        While perhaps not violent, mainstream Islam is sexist, self righteous, fatalistic, anti-secular, prosyletising and supremacist. The extreme of all those is ISIS.

        Happy now?

        You may, however, be quite surprised to know that many “Muslims” don’t believe in it, or at the very least, not all of it. It’s a cultural affectation, or they choose certain bits, like not eating pork, and leave out the bits about killing kafirs.

        If you actively welcome them into our society, they will come.

        If you discriminate against them, they’ll stay in the ghetto.

        • Mr Marginalia

          No, I’m perfectly aware of your tactical attempt to split the blame rather than completely shift it, because that’s the only way to save Islam at all at this point. Still, you masterfully place the ultimate blame upon the host societies for not “welcoming them”. According to your reasoning, the onus lies plainly with France to “welcome” them, rather than with Islam to change.

          To welcome them would be to accept that “sexist, self righteous, fatalistic, anti-secular, prosyletising and supremacist” ideology into a society plainly against such attitudes. You ask too much.

          • johnb1945

            Not at all.

            But Muslims live in France, at the invitation of the French. If you don’t want Muslims, and Islam, and all that means, then don’t invite them in. Be like Japan.

            Now it’s too late, so you better think about how you’re going to deal with it. Ranting at them, having the occasional police pogrom (something France has actually done), making their cultural affectations illegal and abusing them may be one way, but presenting the secular ideal as something attractive is more realistic.

            It’s unlikely that a devout Muslim is going to immediately see value in Laicite but if you meet them half way and redouble efforts not to be racist etc. then you will coax some of them over, and “some” will become “more” etc.

          • No one is making muslims stay in France.

        • jeremy Morfey

          Since the Daesh are going back to the Prophet’s campaigns in Arabia as a model for their operations, then we should ask if the source of Islam is sexist, self-righteous, fatalistic, anti-secular and supremacist, and whether it has been corrupted by those who eat pork, desist from killing kafirs, uncover their women (did you know that Konnie Huq, Blue Peter’s and Charlie Brooker’s sexpot, is a Muslim?), and so on.

          The same argument is used against Catholics, who have introduced numerous practices and rituals over the centuries that are far from biblical, and some (such as Christmas and Easter) are downright pagan, but don’t do a bad job in getting Christ’s message across. There are some though who cannot mention “Catholic” and “Christian” in the same breath.

          How easily then are the mainstream Muslims swayed by the puritans, especially when made offers they cannot refuse? If you were in a village over-run, would you fight and risk being video’d having your half-decapitated neck swung around while still fully conscious, or opt for the quiet life and do what they say?

          Remember England and Scotland put up with eleven years of bibilical righteousness before Inviting their cynical lecherous “Merrie Monarch” back from exile.

          • johnb1945

            Well, yeah. There is a coherent argument that Salafism/ Wahabbism does represent the Islamic reformation.

            If you speak to Sufis or Ahemdeiyyas they read something entirely different, more spiritual and peaceful into the Islamic canon, however. I don’t know on what basis, and they are a minority, but they are adamant about it. It’s worth investigating.

            Whatever. Re-interpretation of Islamic texts as someone who isn’t even a Muslim, let alone a cleric, is not something I can help with.

            I do believe that good will out. We need to be good in order to “win”. We need to make our vision of society appealing. Making it appear racist or hostile….just won’t help…….

          • jeremy Morfey

            Sufis are regarded by the Wahhabis as apostates worse even than Christians, and much worse than Jews. I do feel that any asylum application from Sufis, Yazidis and Christians should be considered favourably, whereas those from Salafists and Wahhabis should be rejected outright and the applicant placed as far away as possible. This should be an EU-wide policy.

            I actually think there is a growing case for suspending laws against religious discrimination in certain cases, and considering exclusive or supremacist religious fundamentalists as enemies of the state, and possibly even enemies against humanity, whenever their creed turns violent. Their followers could be sectioned under a subclause of the Mental Health Act, since it could be argued that this is a form of brainwashing, and a spell of deprogramming is warranted. I would prefer them to be regarded by Government as insurgents, traitors or even common gang criminals. I really do not like the term “extremists” or “radicals” since good loyal democrats facing a perilous situation may, by necessity, have to be become both extremist and radical.

            I have not heard of Ahemdeiyyas before, but have looked them up. They seem rather like the Muslim equivalent of Quakers in history, but more mainstream in their style of worship, and very tolerant of other faiths. They are considered dangerous liberals by the fundamentalists and heavily persecuted in places such as Saudi Arabia and Palestine. I would imagine they are in great peril in Syria and Iraq. They have built a mosque in London, and would fit well in British society.

            Sunnis should be able to find sanctuary in most places in the Middle East. Shias have a reliable sanctuary in Iran, and Jews in Israel.

            We need too to keep informed about progress in the former Soviet -stans in central Asia, most of which are pretty despotic right now, but have traditionally been a haven for Sufis.

          • Rowenna

            Well articulated, thanks. I would suggest in light of your separation of different Muslim sects that if we were to adopt such an approach then we must outlaw foreign funding (both direct and indirect) of mosques and place heavy restrictions of invited speakers to the mosques from outside of the UK.

            Under such terms then I would be willing to accept Muslims of those sects within the UK on the grounds that they would be persecuted for their ‘progressive’ version of Islam in Muslim dominated countries and that they are willing and able to integrate into our culture.

          • Mr B J Mann

            Most Germans weren’t devout Naz!s, in fact most Naz!s probably weren’t psych0pathic k!llers and t0rturers:

            But that didn( even preven’t the H0locaust, never mind the war!

      • Mary Ann

        I suspect the Muslims live in ghettos for the same reason that British migrants live in ghettos in France and Spain, it’s easier to mix with people who speak your language.

        • Guest 1

          Yes, that’ll be those British migrants gunning down French people in cafes or at clubs, blowing Spaniards up on trains, and shooting Jewish children and shoppers. It’s just the same, isn’t it? Finished knitting your loo roll cover yet, you silly billy?

          • Mary Ann

            And the vast majority of Muslims don’t go in for shooting and blowing up people either.

          • Guest 1

            And NONE of the British expats in France and Spain do that, neither do they support terrorism, either actively or passively, neither do they privilege a non-European culture over a European one, neither do they wish to see Sharia implemented, neither they practice FGM. Get the idea? Fiished your nice, little, cuddly loo roll cover yet? Got your head out of the sand yet? Basically, just stop posting silly, trite, ‘Imagine’, delusional, if only there was more love, idiocy.

          • Indeed – only 8 muslim terrorists needed to kill 130 in 6 attacks on 1 night in Paris.
            Only 20 muslim terrorists needed to fly planes into buildings in the USA on 9/11/
            Only 6 terrorists needed to bomb the London tube (and bus) on 7/7.
            And so on, and so on.
            The so-called “moderate” muslims need to do nothing to get what they want.

        • Woman In White

          British expats do tend to congregate in a less than healthy manner, but we tend not to plan terrorist outrages nor riots and crimes against our neighbours …

          • Maureen Fisher

            Some parts of the Spanish economy would collapse on the Costas without wealthy pensioners’ money.

        • Pioneer

          Farage was vilified by you lot for saying that.

        • Mr B J Mann

          I thought they all came here because they spoke English and we’re let in because the would instantly boost the economy and wouldn’t be a burden on services such as education!

    • Mr B J Mann

      Yeah, who’s surprised at the Billionaire Bin Laden turning out the way he did after being brought up in an impoverished ghetto?!

      And I can see where you’re coming from with the rest of your post.

      If a bunch of militant fasc!sts choose to settle in an aggressively “liberal” PC country the PC “liberals” should meet them half-way.

      It’s worked pretty well so far.

      Except for little things like 7/7 and that drummer boy………

      They’ll be building towers for them to toss g-ys off next.

      Or maybe converting redundant churches.

      I know, the “liberals” could drive out the Christians, convert their churches to g-y bars, and let the Is1amists take the g-ys up the bell chamber and then toss them off!

  • Peter

    All of the terrorists were French or Belgian citizens. Two of them ran and owned a bar clearly not very devout “Muslims” then! The female suicide bomber had had many boyfriends and had never read the Koran apparently. So in what sense are they Muslims and in what sense is Islam to blame? Bombing Syria killing even more civilians only creates more terrorists. It would have been as idiotic as bombing Ireland in response to IRA terrorists.

    • Woman In White

      Apparently, they have this doctrine whereby if they set out on a course of murdering infidels, all worldly sins they commit are forgiven, and they can be as self-indulgent as they like.

      • Sanctimony

        Reminds me of the pyromaniacal Mary Tudor who took great pleasure in torching as many Protestants as she could…

        • Woman In White

          Troll, idiot, stalker.

          • Sanctimony

            The latter is partly true… mea culpa… I have indulged in stalking in the Highlands but my missed victims were all of the four-legged variety…

            Now go on… have another rant about my social pretensions etc etc…

          • Woman In White

            Your social and intellectual pretensions fail to be coherent with reality, and are a product of your own delusions and psychosis.

            Your response is simply more evidence of your snobbery.

          • Sanctimony

            And your response evidences your complete lack of class….. and that’s before we mention humour, intelligence or rationality…. you are truly a human abyss…

          • Woman In White

            Hate-filled lunatic.

          • Sanctimony

            Scorn and derision-filled lunatic… if you don’t mind…. you are too pathetic to have any hatred wasted upon you ….

          • Woman In White

            Then sod off, you vile stalking monomaniac egotist.

    • cliffcliff

      The trouble with Islam is it gives ‘Carte Blanche’ to every disaffected psychopath looking for a clue to make their existence mean something.

    • StrategyKing

      These are good observations and need to be factored into the analysis. The terrorists did not spend their lives studying in some wahabi madrasa, getting indoctrinated. They lived and learned in a secular world. So what else lies behind this terrible nihilism? Islam is one factor, no-one can deny that, but what else is there?

      • sfin

        In a nutshell – gangsta rap and hip hop/ drug culture.

        I’ve said in another thread, that the home grown French jihadis have all followed a depressingly familiar path in life:

        Brought up on a sink estate, get into gangsta rap and drugs early on, see that ISIS are the coolest, baddest gang on the planet and they all qualify for entry on account of having musulman(e) on their passports…Sell some drugs to fund the flights to Syria, return to France on valid french passports and bang!

        Most of the Arab youth from the banlieues here in Paris are heavily into gangsta rap and it isn’t a pleasant combination.

        • StrategyKing

          Very, very interesting. Thanks for sharing. In most situations/cultures, gangsta rap, hip hop are letting off steam music and sometimes protest music. People don’t cross the rubicon into taking it all literally. Here, they have.

          So let me ask you this then, the arab youth in France, looks like we are talking about second generation/third generation immigrants? Does being ‘French’ require anything of them/of you for that matter? What does France ask of its citizens as service?

          I will suggest, that all the handwringing about accommodation happening on this forum is missing the point. Halal meat here or there isn’t that interesting to anyone really, and far less to the second/third generation than we might believe. More than accommodation, what people want is to be useful, to feel like they have value. A successful culture asks its members to contribute something. It calls them to serve.

          What do you think? Does that ring true?

          • Woman In White

            Does being ‘French’ require anything of them/of you for that matter?

            That is the question.

          • Sanctimony

            Thus Spake Zarathustra … aka Deirdre Sartre…

          • sfin

            I would say that in some parts of the USA – especially the west coast – some people take the gangsta rap culture very literally indeed…but to answer your questions:

            France has never had an official policy of multiculturalism (like the UK, for example) the policy has always been integration (banning the niquab was a manifestation of this). Unfortunately France’s initial experience of mass Arab immigration saw them parking them all into closed ghettos (which were under permanent night time curfew at one time) and forgetting about them. There was, undeniably, racial prejudice and the Arab immigrants were treated pretty shabbily.

            There is obligation to contribute or ‘give back’ to the state and your comments on the generational change are both true and also hold true for UK immigrants. It’s the second and third generation who are rejecting the country of their birth (most Arabs in my neighbourhood supported Algeria in the last world cup). This problem is particularly exacerbated with muslims as most put their religion before nation.

            The fact that more British muslims are fighting for ISIS at the moment than are in the British Army (and this has the same correlation in France), shouldn’t surprise anyone.

          • StrategyKing

            Thanks! What exactly is this obligation? What are people required to do?

            Just language and dress alone don’t mean that much. These are superficial. They alone will not create an espirit de corps. If there isn’t much else required of people then it does seem like some of this dark nihilism unleashed has some basis(not entirely for sure), unexpected perhaps, in the great post-modern experiment ongoing in the west of freeing the individual from all cultural requirements and constraints.

            If your estimation, what would create a meaningful espirit de corps for France as it is today? Is there any such feeling currently amongst the caucasian population or is it all gone now?

          • sfin

            I have answered you but it keeps getting moderated out for some inexplicable reason!

          • StrategyKing

            There are keywords that trigger automatic moderation. If you can see any obvious ones, just spell them out with asterisk’ between letters and it will go through.

          • sfin

            I did better than that – I removed them completely and inserted alternatives, and it still doesn’t pass muster.

            It’s getting ridiculous – how else do you describe a war involving bloodshed?

            I’ll try again.

          • Mr B J Mann

            You assume that you and autoc3ns0rs think in the same way!

            I was determined to get a post published on a supposedly NOT “m0d3rated” thread on the Maley Wail website. It got through on the EIGHTH attempt!

            After I edited “sovereign” (state)?!?!?!!!

            “SOVEREIGN” FFS?!?!?!!!!!

          • sfin

            Ah, sorry, you obviously read my first draft – before I inserted “no” in front of “obligation”.

            It’s worth pointing out that France has had some bad history with its former North African colonies. France took a different approach to UK in the wind down of its empire. Instead of inviting all of the colonised to live in France, they offered to make them part of the French State (Guadeloupe, Martinique and the Réunion Islands are French departments – it’s the same as if we had made Trinidad an English county). The North Africans rejected this and there was a fierce battle for independence in Algeria. Even today, French people will distinguish between French Arabs of Moroccan, Tunisian and Algerian descent – with Algerians getting the worst press.

            My solution for France would be the same for Europe as a whole. We need to learn some history and follow the example of a reasonably successful multi ethnic country – the USA. The USA shut the door to immigration in the 1920’s and spent the next two generations integrating its disparate peoples. Now you can be be whatever you want to be in the US – but first (he says placing his right hand over his heart) you are a stars and stripes man, Uncle Sam, home of the brave land of the free etc, etc.

            Europe should have a moratorium on all immigration in order that we can integrate those that are already here. Unfortunately Europe is determined on a continuing mass immigration policy for two main reasons:

            1) It needs to fund its social democratic state welfare systems in the face of declining indigenous birth rates.

            2) It has a deliberate policy of undermining the nation states – removing their esprit de corps if you like – as it strives to create the United States of Europe.

            It’s going to end badly.

          • StrategyKing

            Aah but even if there is a moratorium on new people coming in, how would you do the work of integration with everyone who is already there? It is a tricky question. I would suggest a mandatory one-two years of service for men and women; not military but peace corps like service. Everyone goes at a certain age. No exceptions, not even for the presidents children.

          • sfin

            Yes, totally agree. Graffiti clean up duty would have a hugely beneficial effect!

            We have abandoned social cohesion and some sort of national service – like you say, not necessarily military would not only provide this but be of huge benefit to the nation.

          • StrategyKing

            Yes. Anyways, thanks for the great discussion (and thanks to everyone on the thread too). Have a great day everyone.

          • Redsfanx

            Your post is well taken. Things are not perfect by any means in the USA as we strive slowly to become a more diversified nation. The Republican or conservative Americans are not pleased as inter-marriage increases and the Caucasian majority in the US will be in the minority by 2045. But the majority of the population realize, when that time comes, that people of color will still be good Americans. And the Hispanic population is increasingly entering the middle class. But this is a worry for many conservatives, and Trump and his proposed wall on the Mexican border looks like the answer to control illegal immigration for many in America. But overall, I feel the USA is doing reasonably well in this turbulent time.

          • sfin

            No human system is perfect…But the genius of the founding fathers of the United States of America (no-one in history has come close to matching their foresight and legacy IMO) in drafting a framework, from scratch, of a pluralistic, happy society that concentrates on the freedom and personal responsibility of the individual whilst giving that individual the opportunity to maximise his/ her potential has yet to be bettered.

            Europe has spent the years, post WWII constructing a society of children who, every five years, vote for the adults who are going to look after them. I do not feel free and I do not feel safe (I’m not allowed to feel free or safe as, by law, I am denied the right to protect me and mine – that is the state’s job apparently).

            Do not strive to become a “diversified” nation – you will no longer be a nation, should that happen. Yours has always been a pluralist nation and you should continue to celebrate it.

            Oh, and please don’t elect a complete clown like Obama – ever again. If the USA elects that liar and crook, Clinton, then my regard for our US kin will be sorely shaken!

            God bless.

        • smoke me a kipper

          In a nutshell – gangsta rap and hip hop/ drug culture.

          If only they loved rock ‘n’ roll and beer!

        • Mr B J Mann

          So still race and colour based foreign cultures that won’t mix/try to take over the host culture that is the problem then!

    • smoke me a kipper

      Moreover according to most recent reports, wasn’t a suicide bomber, but died from explosion not caused by her suicide belt

      • Mr B J Mann

        Just an innocent bystander then?

        Just happened to be passing by?!?!!!!

        • smoke me a kipper

          I don’t know why you would conclude that. Clearly she was one of the terrorists. Why do you think she was an innocent bystander?

          • Mr B J Mann

            Did you struggle with that squiggly thing at the end?!?!?!?!?!?!!!!!!

    • Mongo

      true, these jihadis appear to be westernised and not particularly devout, or at least before they became radicalised. As others have discussed below I’d guess disillusionment and living on the fringes of society had a lot to do with it. When you have few prospects in life or your future, it’s easy to find groups like ISIS an attractive option. It would give them a greater purpose in life, make them feel like they mattered and belonged to a fraternity.

      however, to suggest this had nothing to do with Islam is simply wrong (again!). whoever they were, they carried out their deeds in the name of ISlam and the prophet

      • David Lea

        Sometimes I feel disollusioned and living on the frnges of society. I know, I think I will go and mass murder a 100 people. that should help!

      • Cyril Sneer

        I wonder if we get Hindus, Sikhs, Buddhists living on the fringes of society… they don’t seem to commit terrorist attacks though. To the OP, “nothing to do with Islam” – You’re having a giraffe mate.

      • Mr B J Mann

        Yup, it was the poverty wot radicalised the Billionaire Bin Laden clan member!

    • Mr B J Mann

      So you’re saying the problem is down to mixing brown people into a white country.

      Or even greeny-white and orangey-white people!!!!

  • milford

    Imagine what ISIS are thinking knowing we’re cutting our police force to a bare minimum and keeping our borders wide open. It’s an invitation.

  • DEMOLITION12

    diversity = White genocide

    • smoke me a kipper

      Why? Are whites not diverse?

      • Jesus H Corbyn

        diversity = progress and cohesion, Kipper

        • E.I.Cronin

          Da! Life has improved, comrades! Life has become more joyous!. Pravda comrades! Diversity mean hundred million rubel security agency bill to contain jihad. Before revolution we oppressed serfs with nyet kulturni – but look now! glorious productivitiy of welfare expenditure, destruction of old capitalist language, heritage, freedom… Truly comrades life has become more joyous.

          (The conference accords a stormy ovation to Comrade Corbyn. Thunderous cheers and applause. Greetings are shouted to Comrade Corbyn, the leader of the Party, from all parts of the hall. The three thousand members of the conference join in singing the proletarian hymn, the “Internationale.”)

          https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/stalin/works/1935/11/17.htm

        • Cyril Sneer

          I’m not seeing a lot of progress and I’m certainly not seeing much cohesion with a certain religious strain…. it’s lalaa lefty doesn’t listen, head in the sand, hope it all goes away lalala….

        • Mr B J Mann

          Doesn’t even seem to work when you try to mix two branches of Islam in the same melting pot.

          And try reciting your Mantra to the Tutsis.

      • DEMOLITION12

        to the anti-White, majority White = needs diversity
        majority non-White = diverse

  • Pioneer

    You can have the catastrophe of muticulturalism or you can have Integration. You can’t have both.

    You can have mass immigration or you can have integration. You can’t have both.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ESlS2jrhXY

    • Hegelman

      I live in Canada. We have multiculturalism here and are getting along just fine.

      I lived in the UK for a long time. We always had multiculturalism there since the nineteenth century when Catholics and Jews won toleration. How else can modern societies work? You can’t go back to burning at the stake.

      Multiculturalism works perfectly well with all communities except the Muslims. So the problem is about secularising the Muslims, not muliticulturalism.

      • Cobbett

        The Jews/Catholics were a tiny minority…When todays minority become the majority who will have to ‘integrate’ then?

      • Mr B J Mann

        I thought the French culture didn’t like sharing a multicultural country with an English one?

        Or are they just Musl!ms too?!?!!!

    • Cobbett

      How about repatriation?

  • Jesus H Corbyn

    Murray doen’t even attempt to disguise his hateful racism any more

    France is fine. There’s nothing wrong with France except some of the social issue – poverty, crime – that affects all western countries. To blame France’s problems on immigrants and Muslims is the same pathetic line we hear here from UKIP

    if you want to solve France’s social problems then eliminate poverty! Tax the rich more

    • MC

      So when muslims kill people, it is racist to refer to them as muslims? Views like that ultimately help Le Pen. What will the rest of Europe do when Le Pen closes mosques due to their terrorist support.
      Then again, supporting terrorism is something your namesake likes to do. JC supports Islamic terrorism in Israel.

      • Jesus H Corbyn

        Lies. Corbyn supports the Palestinians and ISraelis equally

        • MC

          He must have forgotten to send the letter of support to Israel following more Palestinian terror attacks killing civilians this week. I understood he was supposed to starting a new era and sending condolence letters to all nations suffering from Islamic terrorist atrocities; or are the letters only sent to his special ‘friends’?

          • Jesus H Corbyn

            it’;s hard not to feel sympathy with the Palestinians when they’re being brutalised by the outlaw state of Israel.

            corbyn has made it quite clear he condemns all terrorist atrocities, he doesn’t need to send ‘letters’

          • MC

            If you read the newspapers you’d know he sent a statement this week regarding islamic terrorist attacks in Nigeria, seen as the start of such statements to ‘balance the euro-centric media’

            As for your disgusting support of islamic terrorists murdering Jewish civilians again this week, typical of the pro Koran, LGBT hating, anti feminist, pro FGM, ignorant sections of left justifying anti-Semite hate crimes. Terrorism is wrong in Syria, France, Nigeria, Iraq AND Israel. You’re just a Jew hater.

            Up voting your own comment? idiot.

            Now sod off back to your trolling hole. End of conversation.

          • JewishKuffar

            Well said

          • Mow_the_Grass

            You’re not supposed to uptick your own comments @sshole.
            The ‘outlaw state of Israel’ – is home to approx twenty percent arab Israeli’s – who have that representation in the Knesset.
            Corbyn is a POS – and we know him as that here.
            Thank the pope (an expression) – that ordinary Brits see him as a cartoon character.

          • Cyril Sneer

            “it’;s hard not to feel sympathy with the Palestinians when they’re being brutalised by the outlaw state of Israel.”

            Lefty hysteria.

    • sfin

      “France is fine”

      What part of 130 dead, whilst enjoying a Friday evening out, are you not getting?

      I really hope this is sick irony.

    • Cyril Sneer

      Head in the sand lalala the lefty never listens to what he doesn’t want to hear… lalala head in the sand….

    • chizwoz

      Islam isn’t a race. Learn the difference. It matters.

      Also, Saudi Arabia has a lot of rich people. And yet they’re perhaps the biggest contributor to this crazy ideology. Unforuntately it’s not just a matter of economics. Bin Laden was rich too.

    • Mr B J Mann

      The Bin Ladens are Billionaires.

      Are you saying the problem of terrorism was caused by not taxing them enough?!

  • Hegelman

    Politicians in the West and elsewhere need to be truthful about this problem.

    They need to inform the populace that Islamist terrorism is not about all immigrants or immigrant descended people.

    The majority of immigrants in the EU are not Muslim. It is worth
    bearing this in mind when indiscriminately lumping terrorism with
    immigration.

    It also helps to make non-Muslim immigrants feel less vulnerable when they are clearly not to blame in any way.

    As for the Muslims, they need to be secularised quickly. The time for
    soft-pedalling and pussyfooting on this issue is over. Society in
    general needs to be de-religionised. Britain needs to become a secular
    state. Faith schooling must end.

    There is a ton of work to do. Blaming immigrants wholesale is no answer.

    • boiledcabbage

      ‘As for the Muslims, they need to be secularised quickly’

      How? If they do not wish to be? That is the problem. Sure, deportation / internment can partly solve the problem [160+ house arrests in France] but how would such draconian measures be enforced in ‘multicultural’ Britain?

      • Hegelman

        They will have to be.

        It reminds me of an American correspondent in the Thirties who asked Stalin how Germany and Russia could go to war if they did not even have common borders. Stalin took his pipe out of his mouth, said, “They will have” and put the pipe back.

        We have had multiculturalism here since the nineteenth century
        when Catholics and Jews won toleration. How else can modern societies
        work? You can’t go back to burning at the stake.

        Multiculturalism works perfectly well with all communities except the Muslims. So the
        problem is about secularising the Muslims, not muliticulturalism.

    • Joe Long

      Go to Small Heath and tell them they are going to be secularised and you’ll come back with your head under your arm

      http://www.birminghammail.co.uk/news/midlands-news/trojan-horse-birmingham-academy-spent-7248217

      • Hegelman

        It does call for some toughness. It would not be me, it would be agents of the state, armed if necessary.

    • Tom M

      “….As for the Muslims, they need to be secularised quickly…..”
      When you say that remember that they think, with the same determination, that you should be Islamicised and quickly.

      • Hegelman

        We shall have to be tougher and stronger.

    • Mr B J Mann

      Ah, it’s those bl00dy Celts, is it?!?!!!!

  • Murti Bing

    Below is a link to an article that really needs no further comment, but I would urge everyone who has posted on this page, whichever side they are on, to give it a read and to think about what it says:http://archbishopcranmer.com/nissar-hussain-battered-with-a-pickaxe-in-bradford-for-converting-from-islam-to-christianity/

    • Mr B J Mann

      Is this the bit you want both sides to read:

      West Yorkshire Police are at last treating this as religiously motivated ‘hate crime’ (though why it isn’t attempted murder is another investigatory policing mystery). Nissar Hussain’s persecution (for that is what it is) has now been reported nationally by the Daily Mail, Express and the Telegraph (why is this only of concern to the ‘right wing’ media? Why nothing in the Guardian or on the BBC?). He is clearly intelligent, thoughtful and eloquent: wouldn’t he make a good guest on Channel 4 News or Sunday Morning Live? Speaking from his hospital bed, he said:

      “The Muslim community are largely decent people but because of the taboo of converting to Christianity we are classed by them as scum and second-class citizens. Over the years our lives have been subjugated and stripped of any dignity. Our lives have been jeopardised and subjugated, we have been forced to live under a climate of fear, this is not England. I grew up in in to a free decent country accepting British values and the British rule of law. I think multiculturalism has failed, I think David Cameron’s Big Society has failed and I think there is two laws, one for them and one for us.”

      There’s a lot in here to chew over, but there is one fundamental dichotomous tension: “The Muslim community are largely decent people but because of the taboo of converting to Christianity we are classed by them as scum and second-class citizens.”

      No “decent people” classify converts to Christianity as “scum and second-class citizens”. All decent people will respect the fundamental freedom of religion and the inviolable human right (and ‘British value’) to manifest whatever faith one chooses and to abandon that faith if one wishes and do so with impunity. Perhaps Nissar Hussain’s mistake was to talk about “the Muslim community” when there are, of course, a myriad of disparate Muslim communities. It’s easy but lazy to lump them all together. Not all have sympathies for the Charlie Hebdo murderers: it’s just 27%. Not all think acts of violence against those who publish images of Mohammad are justified: it’s only 24%. But that BBC poll needs urgently to extend the scope of its enquiry.

      How many British Muslims favour the quranic exhortation in ayah 256 of Al-Baqara that “there is no compulsion in religion”? And how many instead incline toward the hadith which records Mohammad saying: “Whoever changed his Islamic religion, then kill him” (Bukhari 9.84.57)?

      O, we can debate the relative authorities of the diverse schools of Islamic jurisprudence, and ponder the principal Sunni and Shi’ite soteriological divergences. But the fact remains that you don’t hear many British imams (or representative Muslim community leaders or councils) contending against the view of Sheikh Yusuf al-Qaradawi, who has stated, seemingly somewhat authoritatively: “The Muslim jurists are unanimous that apostates must be punished, yet they differ as to determining the kind of punishment to be inflicted upon them. The majority of them, including the four main schools of jurisprudence (Hanafi, Maliki, Shafi’i, and Hanbali) as well as the other four schools of jurisprudence (the four Shiite schools of Az-Zaidiyyah, Al-Ithna-`ashriyyah, Al-Ja`fariyyah, and Az-Zaheriyyah) agree that apostates must be executed.”

      If British Muslims are not free to reject Mohammed as a false prophet and embrace the lordship of Jesus Christ without being beaten and battered on the sharia streets of Bradford, then Nissar Hussain is right: “this is not England.”

      • RedHotScot

        Sir, as eloquent and informed as you are, you are so wrong.

        It is precisely because Nissar Hussain can say “this is not England.” that makes England (and the rest of the UK) England.

        It’s because he can lie in a state hospitable bed, regardless of his religion or outlook and be cared for by staff who don’t care what he believes in.

        That simple humanitarian act astonishes newcomers to the UK, no discrimination, no insurance, no segregation, just a simple belief in life. It’s probably the single most important humanitarian message the UK can deliver to the world.

        Conversion from one religion to another never come easily, nor from heterosexuality or to transgenderism, contraction of HIV or even the common cold. Try telling someone you have a cold and watch their reaction, suddenly you’re excluded.

        Regardless of our personal bigotries, we all have a duty to everyone that fought for, died for, or even believes in humanity and democracy, to have the patience, tolerance and belief that a more peaceful existence is worth fighting for (sorry for the cliché).

        This is ‘Britain’, because we are debating this, on-line, openly and without fear of state, or formal religious recrimination. Indeed we can engage at speakers corner, protected from persecution.

        Indeed, in a perverse way, it’s our freedom to engage in assault, rather than being judged on perceived intent, that defines Britain as a civilised nation. But the debate on that is quite another subject.

        • Mr B J Mann

          I take it you were being ironic.

          If not:

          Ahhhhhh, right, so those Musl!ms that beat him up with pick-axe handles were doing him and GREAAAAAAAATTTTTTTT Britain a FAVOUR by proving how Great Britain is?!?!?

          Should we then all go out and beat seven shades of Shi-ite out of all Muslims so that they, too, can enjoy the inclusivity and multi-culturalism, and the charity and humanity, of Britain’s international Health Service.

          Surely, instead of inventing Hate Crimes we should ENCOURAGE people to commit crimes, especially against those of other races and religions and cultures so that it can be demonstrated to them how none of GREAT Britain’s institutions are institutionally waycist, and are totally colour-blind, not to mention brimming over with the milk of human kindness.

          By the way, the italics were a quote from the Cranmer article,

          • RedHotScot

            Ah!…….so you’re exposed as an ignorant bigot rather than the eloquent orator I mistook you for. Shame.

            No battle was ever won in haste, but many were lost because of it.

            ISIS will be eroded, then morph into something else, then something else.

            The point is that they are inconsequential in a global endeavour for peace. It might be slow, but it is undoubtedly working, global wars are reduced to civil wars, local skirmishes and, the last bastion of violence, terrorism.

            Our tolerance is a great part of that movement, which includes actually perpetrating a crime before being prosecuted for it. Were you intelligent enough to do anything other than cut and paste you would have realised I was (perhaps badly) illustrating that ISIS are happy to kill people subject to rumour or innuendo, as well as skin colour, religion, gender……..etc. etc.

            To put it in tern simplistic enough for you to understand, in Britain we assault someone, we are convicted. In an ISIS (or many other non democratic lands) you are nicked whether you assault someone or not.

          • Joe Long

            “The Muslim community are largely decent people but because of the taboo of converting to Christianity we are classed by them as scum and second-class citizens. Over the years our lives have been subjugated and stripped of any dignity. Our lives have been jeopardised and subjugated, we have been forced to live under a climate of fear, this is not England.”

            Obviously the heavily colonised part of Bradford in which he was persecuted isn’t England – it’s Mirpur overseas.

            Same in Birmingham

            “I have just returned to London, where I have lived since I was 11. I have been away for four years, living as an ethnic minority in a monocultural part of the world, amassing a host of stories to tell to disbelieving friends……..”

            http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/edwest/100072294/birmingham-%E2%80%93-best-place-in-europe-to-be-pure-muslim/

            The writ of the state barely runs in these places

            Anything for a quiet life, anything for “community cohesion”

            http://www.birminghammail.co.uk/news/midlands-news/police-knew-grooming-gangs-were-9518461

          • RedHotScot

            “Yes, I am very glad to have left Britain’s second city.”

            Glasgow is Britain’s second city, not Birmingham.

            And did anyone, including her, pause for a moment and wonder if she simply wasn’t a nice person? Was it really just Muslims tossing rats into her garden?

            “the thriving but clerically-vacant church down the road has had no applicant in two years. In their absence, we get stabbings that never make the news, dog- and cock-fighting rings, cars torched as pranks and cars used for peddling heroin. (One of the more amusing moments of our time came when a local lad provided one reason people often gave us stares when we drove past such deals: “Two white people wearing seatbelts – you’ve got to be cops.”)”

            So she, and you cite this as unique to Birmingham? This stabbings were prevalent in 1970’s Glasgow when I was a young Cop and there was barely a Muslim in sight. It’s prevalent now in every town and city across the UK and has nothing to do with Islam. Heroin and dog/cock fighting are profitable enterprises and car torching was a favourite pastime of joyriders to ensure fingerprints were destroyed.

            As for Plod turning a blind eye, we were swamped with trivial complaints that could have been sorted out peacefully, and far more effectively by people talking to each other in a civilised manner. Today I am torn between the demand for more cops on the street and the desire for people to sort out their own petty disputes and for the cops to do as we were frequently asked….Go and solve real crime. You asked for it, that’s what’s happening.

            If there’s an ISIS flag flown from a window, go and ask the people flying it to take it down. It a bit of cloth for Pete’s sake, it’s not the problem, it’s the ideology behind it that’s the problem and if you are deluded enough to believe an ideology can be crushed by violence then the Christian faith would not exist. Nor would the United Kingdom for that matter, we fought two world wars on the basis of our ideology, never mind Napoleon.

            So the UK is threatened once again by people jealous of our wealth and global influence, big deal, it’s petty jealousy and should be treated as such. ISIS are as inconsequential as Andrew Neil described, deserving our contempt, not our recognition.

          • Mr B J Mann

            You are clearly deranged as well as dumb.

            You’ve had two chances and haven’t actually addressed either post.

            And the main point is that to put it in terms simplistic enough for you to understand, in Britain if “we” assault someone, like Nissar Hussain, we are NOT convicted. But in an ISIS sponsoring and welcoming Britain (like many other non democratic lands) you are nicked whether you assault someone or not if you do or say the “wrong” thing, or even lose your job if you fail to do the “right” thing.

            But I don’t know why I’m bothering responding to a troll.

          • RedHotScot

            If I’m not responding to your gibberish, it’s because it’s just that. Nor have you addressed my initial post other than to attack it. Try offering something constructive rather your negative, violent perspective.

            You want to attack people? be my guest, but please try to make some kind of sense.

          • Mr B J Mann

            You need to buy a mirror, troll! 8<—

    • Mr B J Mann

      Where is the Million Musl!ms March in support of Nissar Hussain?

      Or even the Million Right-On, Trendy-Lefty, Bleedin-Heart, “Progressive” Christians And “liberals” March in support of him?!

      (There isn’t a “right-wing” one because the marchers would be arrested for ate-crime and waycism!)

  • The harsh truth is – it is not possible to have moderate, peaceful Muslims in any Western country without extremist, violent Muslims. The first is the majority, the second is the minority – but it is the minority that ALWAYS dominates. The reason is that the Koran encourages, condones and approves the actions of the fanatics, and condemns the others. And the Koran is supposed to be the EXACT word of God. Therefore the solution to the problem of Muslim terrorism in the West can only be repatriation and deportation. No other will work.

    • greencoat

      ‘The harsh truth is – it is not possible to have moderate, peaceful Muslims in any Western country without extremist, violent Muslims. The first is the majority, the second is the minority…..’

      Perhaps – or it may be that the second is the majority in waiting.

      • RedHotScot

        That would be like……….”it is not possible to have moderate, peaceful Germans in any Western country without extremist, violent Germans (Nazi’s?).”

        We live and learn.

        • Mr B J Mann

          So you’re saying it isn’t possible to have Germans that aren’t indoctrinated with the Naz! creed to some degree?

          Clearly you’ve neither lived nor learned if you didn’t understand the post you were replying to.

          And think that what you have described is in any way analogous.

          I thought you were being ironic in your first few posts.

          But on reflection, let’s be kind, you’re a troll!

          • RedHotScot

            Are you saying it’s not possible to have Muslims without indoctrinated Islamic creeds?

            When one simply cuts and paste, it’s often difficult to define what one’s individual perspectives are. Try explaining yourself rather than others.

          • Mr B J Mann

            So you’re saying you imagine you were just born a Musl!m?

            Explains a lot!

          • RedHotScot

            You’re an angry elf.

            Nor have you explained yourself, just reacted by taking your frustrations out on your keyboard. Take a breath and start again.

          • Mr B J Mann

            Stop proecting, troll.

          • WTF

            There speaks the voice of experience methinks, that explains his posts !

          • Mr B J Mann

            He’s probably got a sociology “degree” too.

            Keeps posting random bits of his thesis here!

          • WTF

            Probably random bits from his many unfinished thesis.

          • Paul Carolan

            Dont think he is a troll. Just staggeringly stupid

          • Mr B J Mann

            I was being kind!;-)

        • Pioneer

          False comparison.

        • WTF

          If Germany can and has banned any propaganda about the Nazis, its a not unreasonable approach to ban other hate cultures like Islam !

          • RedHotScot

            Ban anything you wan’t, it won’t stop it. Illegal drugs, paedophilia, murder, rape, driving while using a mobile phone are all banned.

      • Agree. The fanatics always take control. Even so-called ‘moderate’ Islamic countries do not allow normal freedom of speech.

    • RedHotScot

      So the peaceful message of the Christian Bible isn’t persuasive enough to deal with the violent message of the Koran, in a Christian country, indeed continent. Is that what you’re saying?

      Our Christian beliefs and democratic politics have largely moved the world from global conflict to global peace. Isn’t it better to convert people from idealogical extremism to peaceful co-existence rather than bigoted expulsion?

      Sure, it’s going to be painful, but nothing worthwhile comes without pain and we’re no longer having our cities flattened en mass by concentrated bombing. The extent of Western conflict is now confined to hundreds rather than tens of thousands. Isn’t that progress?

      So isn’t it regressive to expel people because they are Muslims? We are as peaceful as we are today precisely because the UK is amongst the most cosmopolitan country’s in the world.

      None of us exist on earth to own a part of it, we borrow it all, for a very short period of time.

      Who is allowed where? But for an accident of birth I could be what you condemn, as could you.

      Best you find a new religion, fundamentalism might be a good start, it seems you’re nearly there anyway.

      • Mr B J Mann

        Japan is much less cosmopolitan, and much more peaceful.

        The US much more cosmopolitan, and much less peaceful.

        Look at how peaceful the cosmopolitan former Yugoslavia became when the dictator died, not!

        Look at how peaceful Iran, Libya, and Syria are, with their melting pots of different Is1amic cultures, not.

        And are the most mixed areas of India, Pakistan, and Bangladesh the most peaceful?

        Are you being sarcastic?

        Trolling?!

        Or………?!?!?!?!?

        • RedHotScot

          Japan was forced into peace, or don’t you remember their disgusting behaviour during the second world war.

          You are deluded to imagine the US as cosmopolitan, the vast majority don’t have a passport, most haven’t travelled out their own state.

          Yugoslavia – dictator…….Hmmmmmmmmm democracy ring a bell?

          The Iranian, Libyan and Syrian situation have been subsumed into a ‘middle eastern’ problem, none of whom would agree exist. It’s our issue, not theirs.

          Do we see bombers over India, Pakistan and Bangladesh? Their differences are largely addressed politically, not militarily.

          • Pioneer

            US has serious problems with “diversity”. It is killing them.At least 12 million illegal aliens from South America. Vicious Mexican drugs gangs.US citizens murdered and raped. Obama has been relentlessly importing people from the ME for 7yrs .They now have terror cells in every state.

          • RedHotScot

            OK………now the thread’s getting a bit fragmented so I’m going to agree with you, up to a point. But America had Al Capone and innumerable other criminal masterminds before the ‘Mexican problem’. Nor is murder and rape confined to immigrants.

            In fact that might not be true either as American recent history since the founding fathers has been populated by immigrants, to the detriment of the indigenous tribes. So perhaps white immigration is the problem, after all, the West African slave trade was exploited by the white supremacists importing black slaves, against their will, into America.

            So when indigenous Americans rise up against the occupying immigrants, that’s OK, is it? or isn’t it? And who do they kick out, the protestants, Catholics, whites, or perhaps the black community who were imported against their will.

            So does Britain become an island of white supremacists or do we welcome in the people we like, until, that is, they decide they don’t like us, then we kick them out again.

            Too late mate. The problem is here and now, we have no choice but to deal with it and swallow our Aryan pride.

          • Mr B J Mann

            Sorry, Iakd forgotten you were thick.

            I was replying to:

            “We are as peaceful as we are today precisely because the UK is amongst the most cosmopolitan country’s in the world.”

            So by “cosmopolitan” you didn’t mean Britain was multicultural:

            You meant all Brits had passports:

            Even those that had thrown them into the Med!

          • RedHotScot

            Make up your mind, I’m either thick or a troll.

            And if you want to respond to a particular part of my comments, please make it clear beforehand. Afterthought clarification is a schoolboy tactic.

            Please describe the difference between multicultural and cosmopolitan…..Oh wait, I looked up the Collins English Dictionary especially for you:

            Cosmopolitan: “a person who has lived and travelled in many countries, esp one who is free of national prejudices”

            Multicultural: “consisting of, relating to, or designed for the cultures of several different races”

            So in fact, Britain is both cosmopolitan and multicultural.

            And if passports were thrown in the Med, it meant those granted them chose to discard them. Their choice.

          • Todd Unctious

            Not necessarily.Some trolls are thick too. Like Tamerlane.

          • RedHotScot

            Thank you, that’s a rare compliment, perhaps I misjudged you.

            “Tamerlane: known as a great patron of the arts, literature, and architecture. One of his signal achievements is his capital at the beautiful city of Samarkand, in modern-day Uzbekistan.” http://asianhistory.about.com/od/profilesofasianleaders/p/TimurProf.htm

            I hope you find the link informative.

          • WTF

            Multi-culturalism by your own definition refers to a society, cosmopolitan refers to an individual, they are not the same thing.

            I have been cosmopolitan in my experience of traveling around the world and ‘tasting’ different cultures but I am against multiculturalism in any one country for the simple reason its an artificial form of re-creating those different cultures in one setting through social engineering and diluting the dominant culture.

            Its like an extreme version of the Epcot Centre in Florida where although it might be enjoyable for those unable to experience different cultures like be-heading first hand unless they live in Woolwich or travel to Syria, at least they can see an orchestrated re-creation in a safe setting.

          • RedHotScot

            “Multi-culturalism by your own definition refers to a society, cosmopolitan refers to an individual, they are not the same thing.”

            Please read what I posted, they are not my definition, they are the Collins Dictionary definition. I’m not nearly intellectual enough to compete with Collins, and quite clearly they are not the same thing………..That was the point of the post, and I was dealing with a particularly odious poster.

            I have travelled to, and lived in other countries, I was born overseas and my father was a momentary celebrity (not like today’s celebrities thankfully) welcomed and lauded by more locals than our immigrant community. It was post WW2 and my parents, although enjoying the limelight, were careful to respect the community they participated in. However, they had, in their midst, bitter war participants who harboured terrifying grudges against the peaceful community………we hadn’t even been fighting.

            We lived in Hong Kong, a Japanese occupied colony, and white supremacists despised all orientals despite the Hong Kong Chinese fighting with the British for their island. And for the UK’s sins of liberating Hong Kong, we suffered terrorism in the 1950’s/60’s before the IRA, Islam or ISIS were ever thought of.

            We left in the late 60’s, along with many Europeans who rebuilt Hong Kong after WW2. Then the bankers rolled in, but that’s another chapter. I have never been to the Epcot Centre, is it really a Walt Disney endeavour?

            Now tell me you understand what an immigrant is. I was one. You have absolutely no idea, it’s ebb and flow, a constant evolution of cultural values and an acceptance of each. That doesn’t happen overnight, nor peacefully.

            I do believe, however, that we are on the cusp of a more peaceful world. Thanks to communication manifesting itself as mobile phones, enabling global communication between more right minded individuals than wrong minded individuals, we are beginning to pursue peace rather than conflict as a solution.

            Whilst a few hundred thousand idiots are using social media to peddle their vile concepts, there are billions of people completely disengaged. As bad as Facebook appears, it engages people in triviality rather than conflict. Perhaps it’s a good thing, perhaps it’s not, but enjoy its benefits rather than its failings as its a non discriminatory social platform.

          • WTF

            I’m sure others, just like myself find it very difficult to figure out where you are coming from or what your point is other than you seem to have a frigging great chip on your shoulder.

            There will always be bigots & racists in any culture but Islam has far more of this than any other culture by a factor of 100 to 1. Most Brits like myself have embraced other cultures that integrate into our culture and when I’ve been abroad in Europe, Jordan, Israel, Hong Kong, Singapore, Japan or the USA, I respect their cultures and don’t demand British values. What I do not accept is being told to respect an alien barbaric culture in the country of my birth that is trying to change its intrinsic values.

            I’ve been an Immigrant to Spain for 10 years and learned the language to the best of my capabilities and now I’m an immigrant to the USA. No matter how much we say “pretty please” to ISIS, their only cause celebre is to kill us. You cannot debate or rationalize with psychos fired up by a religion that endorses their actions in their eyes, you can only try to destroy them.

          • Mr B J Mann

            Clearly you are so thick that you can’t conceive of the concep of a mind that can entertain two opinions of someone at the same time.

            In fact you are so thick you think people don’t know that dictionaries often have multiple definitions of a word.

            A CITY, or a COUNTRY, is NOT, CANNOT BE, “a person who has lived and travelled in many countries”!

            More proof, if more were needed, that you are a thick troll!!!

          • Mr B J Mann

            Oh, and as you are a thick troll, and can’t grasp the difference between the definition of a word as as noun, and the definition of it as an adjective describing a country, as you used it,

            “I looked up the Collins English Dictionary especially for you:”

            “composed of people or elements from all parts of the world or from many different spheres”

            And here is their example of its use:

            “British English: cosmopolitan A cosmopolitan place or society is full of people from many different countries and cultures. ADJECTIVE…a cosmopolitan city.”

            Or in the vernacular: multi-culti!

            Hope that helps, troll!

      • WTF

        Our compassion hasn’t helped so far and shows no sign of ever working. Europe worked out its religious barbarity centuries ago and despite setting that example, Islam continues its march across the world butchering their own and all others.

        The UK is cosmopolitan precisely because all cultures except Islam has integrated well but why should we give up the security and safety of Christians and all other cultures that have integrated well just to pay PC lip service to a cancerous religion like Islam. Its not just Christianity against Islam its Islam against everyone else !

      • Your sentiments are admirable, unfortunately politics cannot be removed from Islam. Islam more or less ceases to exist without its political aspect. The religious aspect in Islam is more or less insignificant.

        • RedHotScot

          As it is in any conflict. The IRA was no more concerned with religion but was happy to use it as cover for drug running, weapons dealing and criminality for little more than personal gain.

          • WTF

            Funny but I don’t recall any IRA terrorist reciting three hail Mary’s before blowing up a hotel so there’s no real parallels between them of Islamic terrorists. The provos weren’t looking for 72 virgins in heaven and perhaps that’s the reason they never tried suicide bombs knowing that virgins were short in supply in the real world let alone in heaven.

            I do agree with you that the IRA were more of a criminal group using perceived and sometimes real injustices as a front but Islam has been an evil hate cult for 1400 years and its always used its religion as a front whether real or not. To use the same excuse (religion) for that length of time to kill people one has to take the religious element somewhat seriously unless your a complete di**head !.

          • RedHotScot

            Gosh, you’re liberal with your childish insults. Try communicating in a more adult manner and we might have an intelligent debate rather than a mud slinging conflict.

            I dare say you weren’t there to hear whether there were Hail Mary’s recited or not. Or perhaps you were and I’m being assumptive?

            The IRA were a tiny political/financial group, purportedly funded by wealthy, narrow minded Americans who barely understood national politics never mind international politics. Why do you imagine the movement ended as abruptly as it did following 9/11? How about being isolated in your community because you fund a terrorist organisation, and another terrorist organisation conducted the most devastating attack America had ever known.

            Nor did Islam invent suicide bombers, indeed the IRA were recruited to train middle eastern terrorist groups because they were perceived as successful. The IRA were so vicious they didn’t bother with suicide bombers, they didn’t need 72 virgins, they employed proxy bombers, forcing innocent civilians, under threat to their families to conduct ‘suicide missions’. ISIS are but children at terrorism.

            Your final paragraph……..Christians have been slaughtering and brutalising people long before the Muslim religion was conceived, please don’t be so pious, it’s unbecoming to Christianity.

          • WTF

            Ignoring your drivel up until the last paragraph, I suggest you check your history of Christianity up until Islam surfaced. It was under siege from the Roman Empire for 300-400 years and was only well established 100 years prior to Islam kicking off its rein of terror. By definition it couldn’t have been brutalising people long before the Muslim religion was conceived. Your time lines are all f***** up I’m afraid !

            http://creationwiki.org/History_of_Christianity

  • I want to leave this planet.

    We don’t mix,simple fact.
    Best we live apart to save bother. It’s NOT colour but ideology and religion,it is a clash of civilisations no matter what the ‘elite’ say .
    Peaceful repatriation to save what could be a disaster 50 years down the line,manage this now while we still can,there is nothing on this Earth worse than violence.

    • WTF

      You’re totally correct, it has nothing whatsoever to do with color like the 196’s in America its everything to do with the three co-joined elements of Islamic culture, religion and law. I’ve had Indian neighbors twice, once in Woolwich and once in the outer fringes of London and on both occasions, we went to each others parties and I can honestly say they were in many ways far more British than white indigenous Brits. The same applies to all other ethnic groups that integrate but the majority of Muslims refuse to integrate and demand special treatment for their cancerous culture and religion.

  • davmut

    The politicians in Europe have encouraged the muslim invasion and show no stomach to stop it.

  • KiwiNZ1

    Dawkins, Harris, Hitchens, Dennet. Do these names sound familiar ? They have been called the 4 Horsemen. They were warning about the consequences of REAL theism ten years ago. They were called intolerant, culturally insensitive and bigoted.

    Now you see the actions of people who actually really believe that they survive their deaths and go to a paradise as heroes for killing non believers. Who is intolerant now ?

    Once established, the only way to prevent this spreading to the larger population in the UK was to have insisted that “Faith Schools” be either banned or have close, very close monitoring to check that anti science and anti human notions were not being taught as fact on the taxpayer’s penny.
    Dawkins watching children taught by a Muslim teacher confidently assert that fresh water and salt water do not mix, and the teacher agreeing, should have set off alarm bells somewhere in the Ministry of Education.

    It really does come from the indoctrination of children with religion. Why cannot the Govt see this ?

    • Woman In White

      The indoctrination of children towards atheist bigotry and intolerance would lead to the very kind of fanaticism that you wrongfully attribute to religion only.

      • chizwoz

        And who has ever suggested the indoctrination of children into atheism?

      • KiwiNZ1

        Hi, I’m not sure what you are saying. When you say “towards atheist bigotry…” are you suggesting that atheism can be bigoted and intolerant ? And that children might be forced to be atheists with these attitudes ?

        If so, well let’s be clear that atheism is not anything more than a rejection of theistic claims. It’s not a political, racial or world view. It’s just not having any goddy beliefs.

        Of course some atheists can be bigoted, intolerant, and also have small mustaches and blond hair. But so can theists. Please recognise that these are not consequent on a reaction to theistic claims.

        I hope we can agree that indoctrination of children is not promoting human well being. Education is good, indoctrination is bad. Dawkins, for example, advocates religious education. That is teaching kids about religions. It’s when you tell kids that a particular theistic claim is actually true and the others are false you cross the line into indoctrination.
        The atheist position on god claims is “unsupported by evidence”. Bring the evidence and I will change my mind. Isn’t that a much better thing to teach children ? Teaching children to be skeptical is the beginning of a way out of the current violence. Or do you disagree ?

        • Sanctimony

          Very sound thinking and reasoning… and I am completely amazed that the virago, aka WIW, has not been hurling abuse at you… if you have rid the blog of the screaming banshee… a huge thank you

          • Woman In White

            Ghastly troll.

        • Woman In White

          If so, well let’s be clear that atheism is not anything more than a rejection of theistic claims. It’s not a political, racial or world view. It’s just not having any goddy beliefs.

          You confuse agnosticism with atheism.

          You make some good points otherwise, but the fact remains that atheist bigotry and the atheistic religious intolerance has become very very common. It has become a self-sustaining belief system that can be, and is, transmitted from one generation to the next.

      • WTF

        Who has ever tried to indoctrinate children into atheism ? In any case, you can’t indoctrinate someone into ‘nothing’ (atheism) you can only indoctrinate them into a cult like Islam, Scientology etc.

        • Woman In White

          Who has ever tried to indoctrinate children into atheism ?

          It is a common occurrence.

          Atheism is not “nothing”, that’s an atheist dogma.

          It is a belief system based around the central concept of a non-existence of the Divine.

          • WTF

            We know what atheism is you dumb b****, but I repeat, when has anyone indoctrinated a child into atheism. BTW, refusing to teach a religion to a child is not indoctrinating atheism. Perhaps if indoctrinating a religion such as Islam into a 3 year old child was banned we wouldn’t have these home grown Jihadists in the UK !

          • Woman In White

            but I repeat, when has anyone indoctrinated a child into atheism

            My own brother, sister, and step-brother have, for starters.

            refusing to teach a religion to a child is not indoctrinating atheism

            Didn’t say that it was — neither of my own parents taught me any religion.

            But there’s a VERY clear difference between not teaching X and teaching its opposite.

            —

            And have you ever considered Maoist China and North Korea, where atheism is the State Religion ?

          • WTF

            Perhaps teaching a child there is no proof of some super natural body is not a bad thing considering all the grief Islam brings.

            We teach (or at least used to) children to question facts in science to prove or disprove an observation, I see nothing wrong in teaching a child that science cannot prove the existence of a god by any measurable cause or effect. That popular demonstration of explosively combining hydrogen and oxygen to make water has been used for decades in schools but by the same token, there is no experiment to support the existence of god, therefore until proven otherwise, he doesn’t exist. That’s not atheist indoctrination, that’s science.

          • Woman In White

            I cannot think of a single occasion where the promotion by the State of atheism hasn’t generated warfare.

            I see nothing wrong in teaching a child that science cannot prove the existence of a god by any measurable cause or effect

            There’s something very wrong in the absence of the words “or disprove”.

          • WTF

            I can only think of two countries where perhaps the state promoted atheism namely Russia and N. Korea but neither caused a civil war or war against another state. The Koren war was over control of the land (North & South) and not religion.

            Perhaps you can name a war that’s down to state sponsored atheism as I can easily find hundreds of wars throughout history that are down to religion and still are to this day.

            The crusades and Islam are all about “in the name of god” but we never hear “in the name of atheism” !

    • Harryagain

      You forgot Powel and Griffiths.

  • RedHotScot

    There are a couple of things in this debate I’d like to highlight.

    The first is that there are no “no go” areas for the Police in the UK. That mere suggestion undermines the courage and determination our Police Officers demonstrate without thinking about it. I would also like to point out to those that scream for more Bobby’s on the beat that, having been one I was persistently told to “deal with a real crime” rather than nicking someone for littering, shouting in the street or beating someone up. I could say be careful what you wish for, but it’s too late. Our entire Police Force is now engaged in major crime rather than petty stuff. We asked for it, we got it!

    Secondly, we can thank our lucky stars that our entire combative collective psyche is directed at idealistic, simple minded terrorists. The scale of European conflict has been reduced from global warfare to sporadic, isolated attacks instead of national occupation, subjugation and persecution.

    ISIS are but a flea on the backside of civilisation, they will be defeated, not by bombs and guns, but by the determination of a culture to pursue democracy and the right of the individual.

    Nor will they be the last, but they will be with the rest, dismal failures, represented in future history by a paragraph, if not, merely a sentence of condemnation.

    The ultimate resolution of conflict is undoubtedly to stand toe to toe on the battlefield. ISIS have neither the moral, nor physical fortitude to survive that test, nor does any terrorist. That’s why they are terrorist’s, they simply cannot recruit enough support for their minority ideologies to enter the battlefield, far less contest it.

    • Mr B J Mann

      More irony, yes?!

      • RedHotScot

        And you find precisely what ironic? No go areas? Reduction of global violence? ISIS being fleas or dismal failures?

        Your perception of irony is as distorted as your perception of reality.

        • Mr B J Mann

          I’m not going to feed the troll 8<—

          • RedHotScot

            Thank the Lord, he’s given up.

          • Mr B J Mann

            You would. You don’t like being exposed.

    • WTF

      Rotherham was a no go area for plod for 10 years so lets cut the crap !

      • RedHotScot

        You have no idea what a No Go area is. If there were such a thing in the UK the military would be deployed PDQ as it has in other countries. The nearest this country has had to a No Go area was the Tottenham riots and that was dealt with by the Police.

        • WTF

          A no go area is one where police refuse to go for any of the following reasons –

          (a) It is too dangerous and the investigation of minor crimes would involve swat teams just to question people. I believe Paris & Malmo have some of those and (c) below.

          (b) A community where for politically correct reasons and bowing down to minority groups, crimes are not investigated or suspects arrested like Rotherham. Thats what the report effectively stated after 10 years of this.

          (c) The London riots of 2011 were a no-go area where the police stood back for PC reasons whilst the deprived locals looted top brand name shops and electronic stores.

          Of course the UK has no go areas where police do little, where have you been ?

          • RedHotScot

            Where have you been?……I assume you spent much of your waking hours doing police work as you’re so knowledgeable about it?

            Stop summoning up demons.

            a) The police gave up dealing with domestic disputes years ago because it was pointless, far better dealt with by social services. I doubt that’s restricted to the UK but, unlike you, I’m not prepared to speculate on overseas policing methods.

            b) The report either stated it or it didn’t. “effectively stated” is an interpretation.

            c) The Tottenham, not “London riots”, were not a no go area, I live in London and drove through Tottenham the following week, it was completely normal. No city in the world could have dealt with those circumstances without the violent participation. The Police quite rightly stepped back and let people calm down rather than confronting them and escalating tensions. And thanks to technology, people are still being locked up for their participation in it. Deprived locals? Try to keep up dear.

            Nowhere is too dangerous for the Police to go in the UK.

          • WTF

            Unless you investigate you don’t know whether a ‘minor complaint’ by a young girl who had fallen through the safety net was just that or might turn out to be a major sexual grooming scandal. By your attitude & apparent ignorance of the Rotherham scandal and other place like that, you appear to condone if not actually participating in raping young girls ! If you’re not already, perhaps you should join your similarly minded brethren in that cancerous religion called Islam.

            Correction to my post – “The inquiry’s initial report, published on 26 August 2014, condemned the failure of the authorities in Rotherham to act effectively against the abuse and even, in some cases, to acknowledge that it was taking place”. Other than being a stirring son of a b****, whats your point !

            The riots in London happened at 6 different locations starting in Tottenham and at most of them, the police refused to engage with the rioters leaving it as a no go area for a significant period of time. OK it wasn’t a permanent no go area like the Islamic ghettos across Europe but it was for a while.

            Nowhere is too dangerous for the Police to go in the UK ? It sure is if it involves Muslims and NOT for reasons of assault but for left wing political correctness reasons for fear of upsetting them !

            http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-14436499

          • RedHotScot

            “Unless you investigate”

            Isn’t prevention better than post event investigation? Why do you think innumerable police responsibilities have been turned over to more appropriate agencies like social services.

            Perhaps I should tell you as you are clearly incapable of thinking through the blindingly obvious, it’s because they can identify and stop domestic incidents before they happen. As can many other appropriate agencies.

            “Correction to my post…………..” Right, another ill considered, badly researched comment. Try to get your facts right before spewing your obscene bile and then scurrying round correcting it. I’m also interested in your source for that quote.

            “OK it wasn’t a permanent no go area like the Islamic ghettos across Europe but it was for a while.”

            The areas in question were never a no go area for the Police. There wasn’t one Copper on duty during the riots that wouldn’t have been willing to go in and nick the looters and arsonist’s. I have been in touch with some of my former colleagues from Glasgow who were drafted in to help and they are as frustrated as both you and I, but realise their presence would simply have escalated the problem.

            And you have experience of the Islamist ghettos across Europe………Err, because you read the sun newspaper, or because you have lived there?

            As for your final paragraph, if you want to apportion blame to the Police for their political failings, go and speak to your local MP. The Police force are at the mercy of politicians. No cop want’s to witness injustice regardless of race, religion or political view. Every day in life they protect your rights, as well as everyone else’s to the best of their abilities despite being constrained by the prevailing politics of the day. They deal with millions of people a year, investigating millions of crimes and you select Rotherham as an example of failure. Which is OK, I applaud that, but ask that you go elsewhere on the planet and live under any other Police force in the world, then come back and tell me our police force is bad. Unless, of course, you like the idea of extreme violence, routine injustice, corruption, selective imprisonment, child abuse, racial injustice….etc.

            And please spare me your unsubtle, puerile innuendos.

          • WTF

            Sexual grooming and rape of underage white girls by Pakistani men is a a hate crime as well as a sexual crime. It is for the police and CPS to investigate immediately its reported and charge the offenders, not wait 10 years and a public outcry before acting.

            Isn’t “their presence would simply have escalated the problem” an admission of a no go area when criminal acts were in progress !

            Its not just Rotherham, its Oxford, Manchester, Blackburn and many other cities in the UK let alone Paris, Marseilles, Malmo, Stockholm or Oslo. Can’t you see the pattern here where the rank and file police have been held back by the liberals and their chiefs of police from enforcing the law. Its not the cop on the beat (if there are any these days) its the hierarchy at the top of the police force that is the problem as they are by and large political appointees.

            As for the “extreme violence, routine injustice, corruption, selective imprisonment, child abuse, racial injustice….etc.” we saw Lee Rigby be-headed in a case of extreme violence, child abuse I’ve already covered, racial injustice where recently a Judge actually sentenced a Muslim child abuser based on his culture rather than the offense.

            If this isn’t institutionalized racial discrimination in the judiciary and social services and police chiefs against the majority, I don’t know what is !

        • Mr B J Mann

          That’s the one where they stood and watched, isn’t it?!

    • Cobbett

      ”they will be defeated, not by bombs and guns, but by the determination of a culture to pursue democracy and the right of the individual”
      Hilarious.

      • RedHotScot

        And your solution is to what? Bomb an enemy in our midst?

        Carry on then, you find the Jihaddist’s on our streets then gather the evidence to convict them. The intelligence services and the Police have been trying for years with little success, but I’m sure you know what to do.

        • trobrianders

          Our laws mollycoddle Jihaddists. Thanks for that Loony Left!

          • RedHotScot

            That’s the best insult you can think of, Loony Left?

            I’m disappointed.

            So what’s your solution? Should we only accept people into this country that we like? based on what? Skin colour, religious belief, ideology, wealth, education? Or should we all just ensure we breed white skinned, pure British people called Smith and Farquharson. Perhaps we should selectively breed them to be blond and blue eyed……..Oh! wait, that’s been tried.

          • trobrianders

            You’re all over the place. The discussion was what to do about jihadis in our midst not foreigners. I’m suggesting that those that bang on about human rights such as yourself have a clear agenda to protect our homegrown jihaddis. You are seeking the overthrow of the state.

          • RedHotScot

            Now your confusing me……….So lets start with basics, are Jihaddists foreigners?

            A single word answer will suffice.

          • trobrianders

            Are you aware that many attacks that place on free soil are by home grown terrorists?

        • Cobbett

          Why waste time trying to convict them?…just boot them out.

        • Cobbett

          Remove them al from Europe – simple really.

    • Mr B J Mann

      So you retired in the 50s?

      Because they started phasing out the beat Bobby in the 60s!

      And no one I know asked for that or voted for it.

      In fact most politicians pobably never even spotted it in the the relevant act or policy document.

      • RedHotScot

        I retired in the 50’s?………HaHaHaHa…….what an idiot. Sorry, that’s not meant to be insulting, it’s factual. Had I retired in 1959 aged 50 I would be over 100 years old now!…….HaHaHaHaHaHa, sorry, ~eyes streaming~

        I started in the job in the late 70’s and I spent years on the beat. Granted things may have been different in England but not that much different. As detection methods got more sophisticated, so did crime. Criminals moved from street crime to fraud and internet crimes, amongst other things.

        The beat bobby quite rightly died a gracious death because society no longer wanted him, not because cops didn’t want to do the job, they did, there is no one that regrets the demise of the beat cop more than the beat cops.

        Nor can you blame cops for that. Forces merely serve their political masters, who serve the public.

        • Mr B J Mann

          “The beat bobby quite rightly died a gracious death because society no longer wanted him,”

          No need to keep proving you’re a thick troll.

    • Harryagain

      They have lasted 1400 years so far and have had to be thrown out of Europe on several occasions previously by major military force.
      History will have to repeat itself once again.

      • Todd Unctious

        Well 1685 was the Turk, not the Arabs.

        • Harryagain

          All Muslims.
          All evil.

  • trobrianders

    There were no car accidents before the invention of cars. There was no social media terrorism before social media. What we are seeing is huge on media but still very tiny in reality. It’s the new norm because it is a function of a new technology. It will be another decade or so before we finally settle into it.

    • Cobbett

      I very much doubt what’s being going on in Libya, Iraq and Syria as being ‘very tiny’. Especially if you happen to be on the receiving end.

      • trobrianders

        If you are on the receiving end you might ask yourself why your religious, philosophical, political beliefs can’t bring peace and prosperity to your societies. And if you did you might find, in a world where tested evidence is only a click away, you are getting exactly what you deserve for sticking with sinister medieval garbage.

        • Cobbett

          Who stirred it up in the first place?

          • trobrianders

            I guess we are to blame for everything. And now they hate us and mistrust us and there’s nothing we can do to make it up to them we should just kill ourselves? Or hand over all power to them? Anything to assuage our guilt? If you believe your last statement you must also believe there’s absolutely nothing we can do right. Or is there? I’m only asking what you think we should do because I’m pretty sure you’ll have to face up to reality if you try to answer.

          • Cobbett

            Don’t know who ‘we’ is….as for ”guilt”, don’t do it.

          • trobrianders

            Oh yes, that’s right, you’re a guilt-free internationalist. You only take credit for the warm, fuzzy stuff. You’d look good without your head so don’t be careful what you wish for.

          • Cobbett

            ‘Guilt free’ ethno-nationalist thank you.

          • trobrianders

            Self-hating, guilt-free ethno-nationalist? That is some wicked combination. Isn’t juggling all that exhausting?

          • Cobbett

            You’re very free with the labels aren’t you…I’m not ‘self-hating’. And I’m not American(who ”stirred” it all up in the first pace).

          • trobrianders

            Like I said you take credit for the good stuff but when things go wrong it’s somebody else’s fault. Try taking responsibility for what our elected governments do.

          • Cobbett

            What bollocks.

          • trobrianders

            Take responsibility or shut up

    • Mr B J Mann

      What is a “car”?

      And something like 1,600 people died in traffic accidents in the mid 1800s compared to over 2,000 today.

      But that was 1,600 just in London!!!!!!

  • Jacobi

    France and Russia are at war. Britain will get round to it but is hypocritically hesitant. The war is against that whole swath of Islamic opinion best described as the Sunni/Saudi- Arabian, financed, supplied and armed groups commonly known as ISIL, but of course including many others.

    Eventually the whole Western World, and that included all of greater Europe and also
    Africa will be fully committed to this war.

    This particular stream of Islam must be suppressed. The Persian/Shia ideology does not seem
    to be so aggressively dangerous.

    The problem of ungovernable spaces has existed in Europe, and now in the UK, since the 80s when Brussels, north of and including a line between Molenbeek and Scharbeek was an effective Caliphate, only now decades later are the Belgian government being forced to admit this.

    Muslims claim they are everywhere under suspicion. That is because we have every right and
    reason to be suspicious of them. The time must come when all Muslims undertake a sworn statement that they will renounce all the orthodox methods of terror available to them under their religion, or else lose their local nationalities and be returned to from whence they
    came by way of internment camps.

    • Augustus

      “Eventually the whole Western World, and that included all of greater Europe and also Africa will be fully committed to this war.”

      This war, call it WW III if you like because that’s what historians will probably call it, has already lasted 14 years. From the WTC to the destruction of Mecca. The date of the latter still needs to be determined, but that’s when it will end and not before.

      • Jacobi

        I wouldn’t like to predict the outcome. But it will last some time. My guess is another 30/40 years. And it will be a real war. Not a few gunmen or an airliner here and there. WWII + .
        The real weapon will be resolve, not hardware. I do not think the Secular West can do it. Unless the West returns to the four pillars which used to sustain us, Islam might well win.

    • WTF

      If it was only the liberal culprits who allowed parts of the west to descend into mini Islamic states and ended up being blown up, it would be just desserts but the cowards who sold out the west make sure they are far away from Jihadists and its only the innocent who suffer.

      • Jacobi

        In war, suffering is random. No one knows where the next bullet will strike or the bomb will go off.
        Our mentality must change. This is real war!

        • Woman In White

          As the Pope recently said, it’s World War III a pezzi 🙁

          • Jacobi

            Had to look that up. But pieces, of bodies, is something we will see a lot of!

  • Cobbett

    40 years of unrestricted immigration (initially as low cost labour) has led to the present disastrous situation. Integrating millions of immigrants who don’t want to ‘integrate’ is a somewhat tricky enterprise. So, that leaves few options. One is to carry on ignoring the problem(which will end in disaster for the current majority) and the other is to actually do something about it(remove the threat – permanently) We have to be cruel to be kind(to us at least).

  • Liberanos

    Dear ranting, bearded primitive
    As an infidel I know that a muslim’s most sacred duty, as demanded in the written word of allah, is to destroy me. And it’s happening all over the world every day. However, I wonder if you could consider concentrating on killing each other for a while. I know you can, because you’re doing it quite well already. You see, Christmas is coming up ridiculously fast and those gifts don’t just buy themselves. I haven’t even ordered the turkey yet! With so much to do, you can imagine I’ll be out and about a lot, and don’t want to be shot or blown up, even for allah. So if you could show this at your mosque, I’d be obliged.
    Yours infidelibly,
    Lib.

    • Todd Unctious

      Well said. I maintain that laughing at these self important jackasses will go a long way to defeating them.

      • trobrianders

        Yes I remember how satire totally obliterated the Nazis and Japanese imperialists

        • Todd Unctious

          Arthur Askey had a good go. So did Chaplin.

          • Harryagain

            It didn’t work.

          • Todd Unctious

            Britain’s well developed sense of humour has kept us free of dictators since 1689. Ceaucescu was brought down by mirth and ridicule.

    • Kieron Russell

      I’d get it online. They very likely have something planned for the shoppers this Christmas.

      • Sue Smith

        Speaking of shoppers. Our No. 1 department store in Sydney, David Jones, has refused to install the usual Christmas window decoration of Santa, reindeer, nativity scenes – the things which have made the store famous for 75 years – and now have an ‘installation’ which can be coloured in!! They say the store accurately reflects the modern interests of children.

        This arid, sanitized, humorless, politically correct world of ours is making me increasingly ill. I’m serious!!!

    • new_number_2

      “Dear ranting, bearded primitive”

      Douglas Murray is clean shaven.

  • Beauceron

    Yes, well. We must face facts, even if they are ugly. And the fact is that the posturing from the elite that this time they are going to do something about Islamic radicals is hollow. Give it a few weeks and we’ll be lectured over and over again that terrorism has nothing– absolutely nothing!!!– to do with Islam. Indeed to even mention the two in the same sentence is Islamophobic and racist. We in the west are getting millions and millions of more muslim immigrants over the next few decades. Muslim countries have massive overpopulation problems, few economic growth projects and many of them simply cannot physically sustain their fast-growing populations.

    Look, by way of example, at Yemen. Leaving the war aside, 62% of the country is under 25– 62%!! And many of Yemen’s municipal areas will run out out of water within the next decade. Those millions are going to have to move. They cannot stay there as there simply isn’t enough water to sustain that many people. Where do you think they are going to move to? They are coming to Europe and North America. You think the Left, which swung it’s arms and the borders wide open for Syrian war refugees, knowing that the majority of people coming were in fact not refugees at all, are not going to do the same thing for what they’ll call “water refugees” or, more likely, “global warming refugees?” They absolutely will.

    The future of Europe is Islam. I don’t see a way out of it other than giving far-right parties the leeway to do what they want– and I don’t want that any more than I want Europe to be Islamic. The West, or what is left of it, is seriously screwed up, and I suspect, due to the poor leadership of its elites, we are all living in its last days.

    • JewishKuffar

      A bleak assessment but quite probably true. I would only query your use of ‘far Right’ which is an example of where the left have hijacked language. Who defines what that term means? Are Geert Wilders, Marine le Pen, Nigel Farage, Pamela Gellar etc evil extremists? Or juat patriots who want to save Europe from Islamic invasion?

      • Kieron Russell

        I still have the same Libertarian views I had as a Lefty in the eighties… I have not budged. Today the left occupy a space so far left that it’s meets up with the right around the back – authoritarian, reactionary, intolerant, censorious and supremacist. I can’t air my thoughts in social media espesh Facebook as my Libertarian views on free speech, rights and responsibilities etc. are likely to lead to a tar and feathering (perhaps stoning is more accurate) as my views are so out of fashion. It’s them not us. It’s the cult of cultural Marxism – it’s not even a conspiracy but it is a very successful meme as it tells it’s host that it’s infallible and automatically hold the high moral ground. It’s insidious – oddly (maybe not) it has an awful lot in common with Islam.

        • JewishKuffar

          I’ve stopped even trying to have any kind of debate about these issues with my wife, friends, family because they just don’t want to hear, despite what facts I may present. It amazes me that so many people who consider themselves to be left-wing support a cult which represses women, kills gays and is generally the antithesis of politically-correct views. Still, they are generally brown and we have ‘white privilege’ so the same rules of behaviour clearly don’t apply.

          • Sanctimony

            I imagine that the likes of Corbyn and his squeeze, Diane A, imagine that they can turn the ISIL savages into cuddly teddy bears by reading them tracts of Kant, Marx and Engels in front of a roaring log fire while masticating on a couple of honey-coated crumpets ….

          • hippiepooter

            ‘Antithesis of PC views’? PC is totalitarian. So is Islam. It borrows its tactics.

          • Sue Smith

            Two sides of the one coin. What I’d like to know ….

            Is there any part of the Koran which the Left doesn’t agree with?

          • Sue Smith

            The industrial strength hypocrisy of the Left is fully on display, as you rightly suggest, through their support of crazy theocratic zealots from “the religion of Peace”.

        • RedHotScot

          You have my attention.

          I believed Libertarianism to be freedom of speech, reduced government intervention, more individual responsibility, and the rule of law. Sorry if its a simplistic and probably mistaken view.

          It appealed to me a few years ago but seemed a bit wacky so I abandoned it, but something about it still works for me. It surely cant be any worse than our current choices.

          • Kieron Russell

            Yes, that’s exactly where I’m coming from. Rights and responsibilities – backed by the rule of law. Simples.

        • Sue Smith

          I’m sorry to hear about your “Libertarian” views. But the rest of what you said really resonated. There are a lot of barking mad people out there posing as “liberals” but who want everything they disagree with suppressed. Sounds familiar somehow.

          • Kieron Russell

            Not sure where you’re from – if the States you might be reading ‘libertarian’ as ‘pray to baby Jesus’ and ‘the right to bear arms’. I’m strictly of the secular – liberty, equality, freedom of speech variety. Also not to be confused with the the ‘liberal’ left. Please.

      • Dogsnob

        ‘Far right’ in current parlance, is anyone who expresses the wish to preserve the way of life that has pertained in the European nations.
        That’s how cuckoo things have become.

    • The future for Europe is not Islam – it is civil war. The liberal progressives will have created it alongside their allies the fanatical Muslims.

      • Todd Unctious

        Nonsense. Europe moved beyond such base dealings 50 years ago.

        • Harryagain

          Drivel.
          Nuclear deterrent and NATO have prevent large scale conventional wars. (Not the EUSSR as they like to pretend).
          But they won’t deter a civil war.

          • Todd Unctious

            Are you sure it wasn’t washing machines, TV, pop music,the pill, abolition of the death penalty and education to age 18?
            Civilisation and wealth have massively reduced the proclivity to violence.

          • Harryagain

            The richest country in the world (USA) is also the most violent.
            At all levels of society.

          • Todd Unctious

            But it was much worse in the past. Plus you are wrong the most violent countries are ; Honduras, Mexico, Jamaica, South Africa, Congo and Sudan.

          • Sue Smith

            USA is a debtor nation – it is not rich at all. This is an urban myth. The USA currently owes the Chinese so much money that it would curl your hair just thinking about it.

            So, get rid of the notion the USA is rich. People are only rich when THEY own the stuff they have – not the bank.

            My sister, a retired businesswoman, always comments when she sees a rich man/woman or tycoon talking on TV. She says, “people think they’re rich, those shirts and ties, but the bank would own them right down to their sox”!! Absolutely.

          • Terry Field

            You know nothing.

          • Sue Smith

            Yes, that comes with the territory when you’re over 60 and have read lots of books, essays and articles.

          • PaD

            Your 3whole words dont say a lot about you either.
            This is a comments page..not a toilet wall

          • Mike

            Once you take out inner city areas and the parts that resemble European “no-go” areas, you don’t have such a violent society in the USA, really.

            There are parts that are much gentler than much of Europe.

        • rodger the dodger

          So human nature has changed from 50 years ago has it? Interesting. I suppose that does explain why we keep doing the same things over and over again…

          • Todd Unctious

            Europe changed fundamentally between 1957 and 1989. The rest of the World has not kept up.

          • Sue Smith

            Humpty Dumpty had a great fall and all the king’s horses and all the king’s men……

            Europe, Scandinavia and the UK are now ‘humpty dumpty’.

        • Sue Smith

          What gives you the novel idea that history doesn’t repeat itself?

          • Todd Unctious

            History never repeats itself, but it does occassionally rhyme.

        • Terry Field

          No; you are wrong. Bloodletting and civil collapse is now very close indeed. And I include England in this.

  • Sanctimony

    These filthy, heathen, murdering savages share something with most of our Western politicians…. they don’t mind being laughed at and ridiculed, they don’t mind being pilloried and exposed for corruption, nepotism and abuse of the public purse…. but there is one thing that they cannopt or tolerate and that is being ignored…

    • RedHotScot

      Sorry, I don’t entirely agree with you. ISIS is comprised of children (16 to 30 year old children, one would imagine, but I’m an old git) and children hate nothing more than being ridiculed. Hence the Charlie Hebdo attack.

      The worlds press ought to be ridiculing, humiliating, mocking and despising ISIS for what it really is. A bunch of disaffected, dysfunctional children. They will run back to Mum when they are laughed at by the whole world. Andrew Neil struck an intellectual nerve, and it was the right one.

      • Todd Unctious

        We must laugh at them . We must ridicule their daft beards and their autistic love of only one book.

      • Mike

        Funny you say this: I’d like nothing more than to put up Mohammad cartoons all over the place, on private property, each heavily guarded and video’d, and just have mass arrests of all those who vandalise them.

        They’d eventually tire of it. That’s the kind of radical action that is needed.

  • Ricardo Hotatio

    jihad > the devil
    hudna > the devil
    shariah > the devil
    Aisha > the devil
    taqiyya > the devil
    burqa > the devil
    Manu Qurayza > the devil
    Dar al-Harab > the devil
    Soena 5:32-33 > the devil
    Soena 3:54 > the devil
    ‘Allah’ > the devil

    (More than cynicism)

  • Harryagain

    The same situation exists here in the UK.
    There will be a civil war shortly.
    The government is tooling up for it already with the latest “defense review”.
    It’s all about conflict in our own streets.

  • Oracle9

    The European Left claims moral high ground by the outrageously immoral act of giving their cultures and the futures of their children over to a barbaric alien culture.

    • Sue Smith

      Completely agree!! And the younger generation is so enamored with technology that it’s literally averted the collective gaze.

      • trobrianders

        Let the Muslims overrun Generation Useless. They deserve it!

        • Sue Smith

          I don’t think they’re all useless – at least, not in Australia. I have 4 adult children from 32 to 39 years of age. At least 3 of them are deeply conservative and they feel the same as I do about muslim immigration.

          The other son, 36, didn’t go to university and mixes with an entirely different demographic to the other 3 – his views are defined by his own wife’s philanthropic attitudes – through a happy-clapper church – towards refugees. Say no more!!

          • trobrianders

            Hard to convince practical Australians to accept hippie rubbish. I may leave the UK if this socialist nightmare gets worse. Australia seems like a sane alternative.

          • Sue Smith

            You probably need too have the ‘right’ ethnic background. It’s very very difficult to migrate to Australia now, unless otherwise!!

            Actually, I didn’t know there was a population crisis in Austria and Germany! We lived there throughout 2011 and they didn’t want us living there permanently; wrong ethnic mix (European) and over 60. We would have moved to Germany long before retirement if we’d known they had a shortage, but I’m sure we still wouldn’t have been wanted.

            In short, the yarn about needing to build their populations is just that!! There would, otherwise, have been tens of thousands of Aussies willing to go; if only they’d known!!!!

          • Mike

            What about youth unemployment in Spain (a relatively compatible culture)? Why can’t that “fix” Germany’s population crisis, right within the EU? Romania? Bulgaria, etc?

            There is no population decline crisis, if you look at it this way. There is a political desire to import a “dependent” class.

            Cut off ALL welfare-type benefits TOMORROW, and you see it all start to change around.

          • Mike

            Key terms: “at least, not in Australia”.

            What is left of the traditional West?

            The United States, to a serious extent. Australia. Parts of Canada. To some extent, Eastern Europe, FInland, Israel. Maybe Switzerland.

  • new_number_2

    “Earlier this year an American counter-terrorism expert appeared on Fox News”

    He means self described terrorism expert Steve Emerson.

  • WTF

    There was a good analogy offered the other day about immigrants from Syria and
    Jihadists that went, if you had a barrel of apples and one was poisoned,
    would you be prepared to chance it and eat one of them ! Of course our western leaders and libtards have their own pre-checked barrel of apples to pick from so are not at risk.

    • Mike

      No, but I’m quite happy to have leftards or jihadists eat from the barrel until one of them dies from the poisoned apple, and then keep the rest for myself! 🙂

  • Chan

    You only need 1 cancer cell to turn rampage to create a large tumour. THe fact is that you simply cannot welcome refugees without having terrorists eventually (most of the French gunners are unemployed 2nd generation Muslims).

    They simply don’t integrate well with society.

    • Sue Smith

      And did you hear that Ebola has made a return to Nigeria? I wonder how many carriers are now safely in Europe. That’s not my problem – I’ll never visit there again.

  • Chan

    I always find it ridiculous that foriegn students like us had to beg for a chance for a work visa while you open arms to “refugees”

    Fine, our Asian families are rich enough so we can go back to our original countries and not live in poverty, send us home then.

    What about the Ukrainians? They wanted to be Europe, they had a revolution to prove it. They stood in the Ukranian winter for months and got shot by police to prove how much they wanted to be a part of Europe. They had a religion which would easily integrate with Angelican/Catholic church.

    Why not take them instead? I am sure they are willing to do the cheap labour work the Brits refused to do. They will surely integrate better than the Muslim refugees, why not take the Ukranian refugees instead?

    This escapes reason

    • WTF

      Totally agree with you and I’ve always found Asians from the far east to be very westernized in their approach to life and willingness to integrate well. I used to work for a California based semi-conductor company but in the UK and the product support engineers in Newport Beach were pretty much all of Asian descent and every one of them was a pleasure to work with over 6000 miles away.

    • Harryagain

      The Ukranains should have kept their nuclear missiles.
      They would have been totally safe then.

      • Mike

        … but they got guarantees!

        • Harryagain

          Well we all know what guarantees from politicians are worth.

    • vieuxceps2

      Escapes reason? Not if you remember that Pakistanis and Bengalis have dark skin so fall within the range of victims chosen for special treatment by the lefty libby luvvies who’ve influenced such matters over the last few decades. Ukrainians are white, so tough luck old chums.

    • Mike

      But you see, Ukrainians or Chinese or Philippinos or Vietnamese might easily turn into right-wing voters within a few years!

      Muslims are much safer for the left-leaning parties. That’s why. It’s the only logical reason why.

      If they needed cheap labour / to avoid population decline, they’d be looking for a mix of people from around the world, with emphasis on those that integrate best. They’re doing the reverse, adding to the “dependent class”, precisely because they “vote right”.

      It’s stupid, because they themselves will suffer the consequences, or their kids will, but they think too short term for that.

    • MusicandGamesandstuf

      what about white south africans?

  • sussexoracle

    The complacency of government over the last thirty years has been astounding.

    Those of us who worked in the City of London may recall the Islamic hate posters tied around the railings at Aldgate station well over twenty years ago. Anyone who saw this stuff will only be surprised it took this long for the simmering volcano of bitterness, resentment, and righteous indignation to burst.

    The unpleasant truth is that too many Muslims who came here in search of a better life, fleeing the repressive regimes and everyday corruption endemic in their part of the world want to reduce our society to the same barbaric one as they left. They want our money, our benefits and health care but they despise us and our lifestyles.

    I offer solutions:

    Most -if not all – of the convicted terrorists and their sympathisers are of first, second or third generation Pakistani or Bangladeshi stock. They are thus entitled to a Pakistani passport. They can be deported easily enough, if government has the will. There is nothing that cannot be arranged in Pakistan with a few quid and certainly passports would be no problem.

    The hate preachers, and those who sponsored them should be first on the list.

    ‘What about the right to a family life?’, I hear you bleat. Well, the family can join them in Islamabad or Karachi too. We should offer to pay their fares.

    Perhaps then they will all realise when they were well off.

    • Sue Smith

      Regarding that last sentence…I don’t think so. Ever.

    • Terry Field

      No complaceny. The criminal Labour Party PLANNED the mass migration.

    • Fasdunkle

      The pakistani passport application form demands that most people filling it in have to denounce some other muslims.

      • Mike

        And the citizenship application elsewhere should have a line like:
        “I hereby recognise the primacy of state law over religious law for public matters in country X.”
        That might turn off 10% of the more honest Islamofascists. The others will just lie, BUT here would be my gig: I’d make it a denaturalisable offence to be shown to have made a false statement on this, and DEEM it to be evidence that it was false if actions contrary to it are taken in the next 10 years…

  • Brigantian

    It is not France’s civil war it is Europe’s. Appeasement in any age only ever has one consequence, and that is the choice to fight or die. Stirring up a hornet’s nest only has one consequence, and that is to get stung. The Muslims who committed genocide in Uganda 50 years ago are the same committing genocide in Nigeria today. They have not been detained because they take orders direct from Saudi Arabia. The USA has supposedly been bombing Isis for months but only when Russia joins the air strikes are convoys of oil tankers crossing the deserts destroyed. Where were these tankers going? Why had they not been stopped before? Why did Turkey shoot down a Russian aircraft immediately after Russia destroyed these oil convoys?
    NATO has an obligation to expel Turkey and declare war on Saudi Arabia. Anything less is a total betrayal of its own people.

    • Harryagain

      ISIS is selling (stolen) oil to the Turks.
      That’s what the convoys are about.
      Why are they buying?

      • trobrianders

        Assad is a big buyer too

    • Violin Sonata.

      It indeed is a civil war in the whole of Europe.

  • Terry Field

    And large parts of England are not English. Go to Bradford, Birmingham, large parts of many other cities.
    Only the politically correct and the corrupted Labour Party deny this.

    • vieuxceps2

      You sre quite right. I find it heartbreaking . Sad to say, I think the same will be true of many other European and Scandinavian countries and regions. Can nothing be done?

      • MusicandGamesandstuf

        yes, there still is time.

  • PaD

    I suspect the lockdown in Brussels(full of EU beaurucrats) is more about them protecting themselves…what about the rest of us?

  • AraucaniaPatagonia

    Integration… Exactly why is it “our” duty to “help” incomers integrate?

    If I went to live anywhere else, I wouldn’t expect it to be anyone’s duty but my own to “integrate” into the community in which I had chosen to live. If people choose not to integrate, whose fault is it but theirs?

    • James Spencer

      Why would you, Murray, or anyone else want Europeans to “integrate” with Paki-stanis and Africans? It would be entirely dysgenic for us.

      Who would benefit from that?

    • Avik Madhu

      The ultimate TROJAN HORSE had entered in Europe, which ottomans failed to do

  • Avik Madhu

    let the civil war begin …………………………………………………………….we Hindus are waiting for it for long time

    • Plunn

      As a British person, I would be pleased to fight alongside you

    • Violin Sonata.

      And so it shall be.

      • Just fed up

        As a mixed race British born Yemeni Christian with a white mother. I too will be with you and so will my massive British Christian family. The sooner it comes the better, Merkal has done us all a favour and events in Cologne have woken up many millions from the PC spell of naivety.

  • Joe Smith

    It’s all over for the feminist Europoofs. May as well convert first opportunity after the Muslim savages take a break to burp.

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