Sweden’s feminist foreign minister has dared to tell the truth about Saudi Arabia. What happens now concerns us all

Four male or eight female witnesses according the written law I believe (which judges may or may not adhere to) as far as I have read. Doesn’t that say it all?

I’m afraid it already exists for the most part. All this ridiculousness about “over reported” rapes on campus. Rapes are reported falsely no more than false burglaries or any other crime. They are simply not taken seriously because even in this country–white men still run things, are paid more, etc. same side of the same coin.

“They are simply not taken seriously because even in this country–white men still run things.”

Wow. Full on racism.

Perhaps ‘White men’ run things, because it is a white country?

Majority white are they not? Last time I checked there was a black man (half white/half black to be precise) currently running things in the America (a majority white country) and making a real balls up of it too.

Are there any ‘white’ countries? I have never been to one and I’m on my fifth passport.

“Immigration in Latvia has traditionally been from neighboring countries such as Russia but now migrants also come from other areas such as Latin America and Africa”

There are protests about African immigration to Estonia, which would indicate there are non-whites in Estonia, too.

I don’t think there’s anywhere in the world that is ethnically isolated any more.

“Are there any black countries?”

Not that I’ve been to.

And care to quote my bigotry? I’m interested in what a low bar you must set.

“When it’s true, it isn’t racist.” Really? I think you may be on very dodgy grounds there

Except in this case the fact that it’s a spade was presented as the problem. That is racism.

Really? Then why did you use a term you say you don’t use?

Your reply to me immediately above implied that you don’t use the term to apply to anything other than a gardening implement. Actually, I think you may have misunderstood what I meant about how using the term was racist. In this case, I didn’t mean that the term “spade” itself, was racist, as in “black as the ace of spades”. Which is not what you did. I meant that it was racist for ‘grimer’ to say that the fact that white men still ran things was a problem. Your subsequent use of the phrase “call a spade a spade” was actually referring to calling them white men, which in itself is, of course, not racist. The fact that that phrase has racist connotations in America led to the confusion over my reply.

This may or may not make sense at this late stage.

Yes you are a racist as you have aptly displayed on here.

Don’t you have a life?

It is racism to consider that the colour of skin is in any way relevant.

To insinuate all members of a race are to blame for the action of a few members of that race, is without exception racist, it doesn’t just stop being rascist because they’re not a minority group, it’s very simple, language has to be used with care.

Yes totally, if you’re saying all white africans are to blame, really is pretty clear, even in a democracy not everyone is to blame for the actions of their government.

Apartheid ungood (sic)
Change from minority rule much worser (sic)

Dutch-European immigrants provided the brains to build South Africa.
White PC liberal jelly babies provided the lack of brains to apply a solution. .

The consequences are writ large in Zimbabwe and South Africa is deteriorating nicely thank you very much.

Look out for violence in Nigeria later this week.
Jonathon will need plenty of good Luck.

the use of accusations of racism,anti-semitism and all the other isms is more and more being used to squash proper debate.I think this Swedish politician is brilliant,and in the face of such nasty opposition she is brave too.

Apartheid was three tiered with African “blacks” on the bottom. There were many non-Whites who benefitted from apartheid.

Saudi Arabia is not White. They have an apartheid system there. Just ask the desert bedouin and the Shi’a out in the desert. They aren’t even allowed citizenship.

Kuwait does the same thing.

Ask the Baluchi how they feel about their fellow Brown brothers who treat them as second class citizens in Iran, Afghanistan and Pakistan.

Let’s talk to the Kurds, the Tibetans, the Armenians, the Druze and several others in the Arab/Persian world who are living in apartheid hell.

Oh….it’s not Whitey who is screwing them over so we don’t care about that.

Idiots!

Sorry but Arabs are Caucasians since they have the same origins as Europeans. It’s also important to note that Caucasians evolved in the Middle East (near the Caucasus, north of Iran).

The ”Caucasians” include: Arabs, North African (Berbers), Iranians, Indian Subcontinental people, Europeans etc. The predominant racial type in all those areas is Caucasian. Even though all these Caucasian groups have some non-Caucasian admixture to some degree (including Europeans) they are still more genetically closer to each other than to non-Caucasians.

For instance, brown-skinned Arabs are more genetically similar to blonde North Europeans than the Japanese are to Malaysians, and in fact, the racial divide between the North Asians (North Japanese, Korean, North Chinese) and Southern Asians (such as Malaysian, Thai, Filipino) is much much deeper than the one between Arabs and Europeans.

In forensic science and anthropology, ”Caucasian” is used to describe a skeleton/skull type, rather than a skin color. You can have pale-skinned Caucasians and dark-skinned Caucasians. The skin color is the least important factor since skin color correlates with lattitude and doesn’t necessarily indicate a populations true racial origins.

I am a white South African that was young in those days and yes the government was to blame. You 100% correct in saying the government was to blame.

I do take offence in you thinking because I am white and South African that I must be a racist. That somehow their views must be my views.

I know many white South Africans who voted for the ANC when the first elections were held to get Mandela into power. Are they racist? They wanted change in the country as much as the next person not happy with apartheid but what you saying is that they racist just because they were white and must have been pro-apartheid.

So all white SA’s are to blame because they’re born white?

Recognising the colour of someone’s skin isn’t racism. Treating, or even thinking of them differently because of it, is.

That is what many western women said before they married a muslim man. Then they get persuaded to visit the inlaws in the middle east and suddeny find that the goalposts have moved.

So, black men would take rape more seriously than white men? How about Pakistani men, would they be keener on investigating rape than white men? What a load of codcrud.

And then there is Hilary Clinton who is for women’s rights and has accepted over 20 million funneled through the Clinton foundation from Saudi Arabia. This woman is capagning for president. Is this who the people want.better take a good look.

Not really, Of course, Hillary is a very ambitious career politician and not specialised in women’s issues, but during her tenure as Sec of State she promoted an awful lot of initiatives to improve the position of women world-wide.

Common sense is not his forte.

You’re so totally not up to date with what “racist” mean in Sweden.

Here it mean “Your opinion isn’t that of mine and you shouldn’t be allowed to spread it.”

.. in all cases arguing any truth or facts whatsoever among any group of people.

They are only supposed to be seen as individuals which make any trends and cultural difference insignificant.

I despise people like you that play identity politics and exercise that same level of bigotry as those you’re apparently against.

Just admit it, you hate white people and you need to seek help.

Sadly not only in Sweden. The “progressives” in the UK shout “racist” to shut down debate in the same way. (“Progressive” is the term they use instead of “socialist” so as not to remind people of the economic disasters under under past socialist governments. It’s 1984’s Newspeak.)

Pat Condell put out a great video about “progressives” on Youtube. Excellent as always

I don’t see how the run out of arguments part is true.

As for “being racist”, yeah, of course one it’s a racist argument to say Muslim or Somalis are bad immigrants. Since it’s based on a group of individuals. Or to say Romanian who aren’t citizens shouldn’t get well-fare here or free health-care or whatever.

That’s part of the idea with the argument.

To say “that’s racist” doesn’t make it false or irrelevant or nothing to consider or actually answer it at all though.

And it wouldn’t be seen as a problem in other places (at large.)
People would more likely just consider you an idiot if you said insurance systems should be allowed to be used by everyone even those who haven’t contributed to them if we make such a comparison.

Simple real politics would say 4.5 million workers in Sweden can’t promise to bring a high standard of live to whomever wants it for nothing.

Similarly that if you want to keep your society and let it have your values you shouldn’t tempt poor people from all over the world with well-fare promises even if they don’t share the same values because then some others will show up as well.

If you didn’t promise shit then only people who longed for your society would be interested.

Also I just read that three out of ten of the immigrant women and two of the immigrant men relationships are with a native. Which is because we prefer someone equal. Which likely also is why segregation happen and one reason why people have a harder time joining the work-force then they are outsider.

People don’t like different. People like the same.

To preach tolerance is one thing, but totally forget about that if you’re going to drag in 126 000 per year. At a cost of whomever knows, both economically and to society. I won’t be tolerant to that because the whole idea is complete shit and destructive.

There is no argument in “you’re a racist” so that part make no sense and the “I’m not a racist, but ..” make no sense either and is the name of a retard online group.
It’s not even said.
As I said jokingly “Rather a racist than a nigger.”
I have no problem being a racist. Even more when racism is part of the argument.

quote: what is true is not racist.
That may be your definition but I’m pretty sure it is not what the UK legal system applies.
That which offends an individual of any given race tho usually black may be considered racist and subject to legal procedure.
Fot example there is overwhelming empirical evidence that not all races are equal.
Say so and at the very least you may lose your job.

There is a tendency to the same kind of thing re rraappee..
If a woman cries the dreaded word it must be true.

Peedoopheellya is definitely already that way.
There cannot possibly be any real independent *evidence* of most cases of historic activity.
Accusation is sufficient. to bring about conviction.

No only because too many choose glitz, glamour, and career over fighting in the trenches for political and social reform.

Every male who physically harms a woman should be completely ostracized by society and by the the victim herself. “Love one another” does not mean hurting one another
Pueden ser que la paz y amor en toda su vida.

Aahhh don’t tell them that then they will understand why woman around the world want to marry them.

Have you seen the living standards in the Gulf states? Much higher than the West.

If you like dirt bikes, sand dunes, tax free living, nice weather, close access to Europe, Africa and Asia, then I would argue it’s an awesome place to live.

I think the quality of life in the UK sucks balls, but I’m sure there will be half a hundred people willing to convince me otherwise. Half of them will threaten me with physical harm for holding such a view.

You’re right. I don’t want to live in Saudi Arabia either. But I don’t. I live in a really peaceful country with almost no crime, without drunks pissing in the street, where women can go about their business unmolested, where I am as safe out at 3am as I am at 3pm. Where if I leave my car unlocked, when I get back to it, it’s the same as when I left it.

I don’t get to vote – but I wouldn’t if I lived in the UK, either.

And I don’t have to worry that my son will get ‘bottled’ while out for a meal with his sister, as happened when we lived in the UK. And I don’t have to worry about my daughter being raped, as happened when we lived in the UK. And I get to keep all the money I earn and not have to fund the latest pit of waste the UK government calls progress.

See, there’s downsides to every country – but I feel happier, safer and much more comfortable living here than in Reading in the UK. My 5 bedroom house is the size of three Victorian terraces. My fuel costs 17p/litre and my net wages are higher, without any swingeing taxman taking 40% or more of what I earn.

I’ve lived in the US, I’ve lived in the UK – for a long time. I much prefer living here.

Stop using Saudi Arabia as the yardstick for all Muslim countries and you will be a lot happier. Go complain to your government that their good friends in SA are abusing women, instead of ranting at me about a country that has nothing to do with me. There are only two nice places in the Gulf – Oman and Jordan. Sure they are both monarchies and democracy is a little iffy, but they are infinitely better than their neighbours.

There are nearly 2B Muslims in the world – only 200M are the kind of Arabs you describe. No doubt you also decry the behavior of every race and religion based on 10% of their adherents.

Sucks to be you.

The fact that people still think women are “allowed” to have rights by their male masters (as opposed to having them by birthright as humans but having to fight for them in places where logic-bereft “macho” attitudes prevail) proves that MOST countries still have a ways to go, including ones largely run by white males.

Which God do you mean? Isn’t secular better than have to choose one God? And by the way, Jewish, Christian and Islams God are the same God…

Ask any religion scholar, and you will get the same answer. Jewish God is formed from two different Gods when two tribes got unified. Then Christianities God was formed from the small sect that followed the man Jesus of Nazareth, that was a Jew. Then the Islam was formed of a Arab that studied Jews and Christians and started a religion of his own. They don’t believe and worshiped three Gods like Christians does, according to Islam and Jewish.

And yes, all Gods are the same God, the Jewish one. And claim that isn’t the case, are really showing that you don’t have the most basic religious education in this.

But that is more or less expected from you. But here are some information, so you can educate yourself:

http://press.princeton.edu/chapters/i7816.html

“In two major volumes on the subject recently published by scholars from various faiths and traditions, including Volf’s, the most inclusive response from these scholars is basically: Yes, and it’s our God.”
http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2013/09/01/do-christians-muslims-and-jews-worship-the-same-god/

http://www.religionfacts.com/compare/christianity-islam-judaism

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abrahamic_religions
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abrahamic_religions#Common_aspects
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abrahamic_religions#God

http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2011/april/muslimschristianssamegod.html

@master. No, I wouldn’t want to do that. Which religion are you talking about?

I do despite lies and lairs though. And lying about other people are the worst, and racist do that. Even Jesus claimed that after not respecting and fearing God, lairs are the worst people he could think of. It is even on the ten commandments on the list given to Moses from God.

I might add that ignorant people that doesn’t want to learn new stuff also are high on that list of despicable people.

@mastersoftheobvious:disqus, what religion did you refer too? Christianity, Islam, Buddhism or some one else?

I don’t defend any religion, but I hate when people are lying and make bigotry arguments about things they obviously doesn’t know anything about.

And it doesn’t change one thing if you have any use of it or not. That doesn’t change if it is true or not.

Harassment in public comments to an article when commenting your posts? Very strange definition of harassment you have.
Are you not aware that you might expect answers when you post on a public web sit, MastersOfTheObvious?

As long as you make strange postings with ignorant statements based on false data, I will correct them.
If you express your opinions I might comment on them.

Agree,but the countries run by white males if democratic can be quickly changed to progressive humanistic governments, if the oppressed themselves should get up, speak up and most importantly vote for individual politicians who have thr integrity and courage of Ms, Margot.

Do you know how ludicrous you sound?

One one hand we have The Left – which according to you are rampant feminists

On the other we have the jihad – intent on ensuring “the muslims take over” and, according to you, intent on enslaving women.

And of course, The Left, with all their degrees in social sciences can’t see this and so will go ahead and ensure the caliphate is given an easy run.

What a buffoon.

?????

Didn’t you read my response to Da La? Wow if all women were as hateful as some of you the species would have died out by now.

Go to a place where there no white men you might find that white men have done more to advance the rights of ALL people than any other group.

If you are demanding perfection the earthly realm is the wrong place to look.
If you are honest you might go a little easier on white men.

Some anger management classes might help too.

I’m not saying people of all races, men and women alike, haven’t made contributions to human freedom just as there have been men and women of all races who have stood against human liberty.

What I’m saying is that to single out white men as the root of all evil is misplaced, when in fact, when all things are considered no single group has done more to advance human rights for all people than white males.

That is not meant to minimize anyone else. It is just the way it is.

“No one has singled out white men as the root of all evil”

You just did in that last post.

“has wreaked havoc upon the earth, committed atrocities, wiped out whole
civilizations, committed genocide multiple times, enslaved other races
as well as women.”

So you’re blaming white males as some sort of collective group. That makes you a bigot.

Kill yourself.

Take your bigoted identity politics and shove it right up your liberal a-hole.

It always amazes me with holier than thou liberals who think they can display the same form of vile racism and sexism and just because the target is white and male you somehow think you’re beyond bigotry. No you’re not, you’re a bigot. Well done.

Will Rogers said that “the problem with most people isn’t what they don’t know; it’s what they know that isn’t so”.

I truly believe that is the case here. It appears that your mind is closed to new thought so I won’t try to reason with you any more.
I guess we’ll just have to agree to disagree.

Nonetheless, I wish you well.

Shalom.

Michelangelo, da Vinci, Newton, Euler, Leibniz, Galileo, Kepler, Mozart, Beethoven, Hayden, Washington, Jefferson, Madison, Paine, Adams, Franklin, Lincoln, Roosevelt, Einstein, Churchill.

The list could go on but the fact that white men, some of them rich, have contributed a lot to the betterment of all humankind is hard to dispute. Without the list above the world would be a far, far different and less hospitable place for everybody.

I am not being racist but I think it would be very hard to compile a similar list from any other race.

In my previous post I was actually trying to be nice and accept that neither of us was going to persuade the other to our position.

Sometimes we just need to accept that and go on without any more insults.

Really.

Hardly, there was no one else at the time who could do what they could do. Is there a corresponding list of achievement by any other demographic?

Heck, there have been very few since who could do what they did.

Do you ever feel embarrassed about looking at EVERYTHING through the lens of victimhood?

If you’re looking for perfection the earthly realm is the wrong place to look.

Of course wrongs have been committed against virtually every group in the past but, as a group, humanity MUST put grievances behind us and move forward.

The Sisterhood of Victimhood is what’s holding women back today.

No, it is not what holding women back today. It is still men. It geting better, but it still isn’t good. And we need to struggle for each step.
I mean, look what happen in US with those anti HBTQ laws. There you have some steps back.

Show me the list.

Show us something positive produced by Islam in the last thousand years. And all the stuff from a thousand or more years ago can’t be accurately verified today. How about do some research on the atrocities committed by followers of Islam TODAY and every day for that matter. Islam has no place in a civilized world. Period.

Come into the real world. Look at the fruits of Islam today.

http://www.nytimes.com/1990/03/27/science/did-einstein-s-wife-contribute-to-his-theories.html
In 1776, Abigail Adams wrote to husband, John Adams, to “remember the ladies and be more generous and favorable to them than your ancestors…” when writing the new laws of the land. She went on, “If particular care and attention is not paid to the ladies, we are determined to foment a rebellion, and will not hold ourselves bound by any laws in which we have no voice or representation.”

Margareta Valdemarsdotter (Margaret I of Denmark),
Hildegard of Bingen, Elizabeth I of England, Catherine the Great, Catherine de’ Medici, Émilie du Châtelet, Hatshepsut, Maria Sibylla Merian, Hypatia, Maria Gaetana Agnesi, Laura Bassi, Maria Margarethe Kirch, Rosa Parks, Maria Sofia De la Gardie, Olympe de Gouges, Mary Wollstonecraft, Artemisia Gentileschi, Gudrid Thorbjarnardóttir, Queen Victoria, Empress Wu Zetian, Jeanne d’Arc (Joan of Arc), Gertrude Elion, Maya Angelou, Marie Curie, Florence Nightingale, Shirin Ebadi, Ida B. Wells, Benazir Bhutto, Oprah Winfrey, J.K.Rowling, Susan B. Anthony, Hedy Lamarr, Mary Pickford, Sappho, Boudica, Eleanor of Aquitaine, Harriet Beecher Stowe, Eleanor Roosevelt, Dorothy Hodgkin, Billie Holiday, Malala Yousafzai, Aspasia of Miletus (Socrates’ teacher), Maria Montessori, Sojourner Truth, Isabella I of Castile, Pocahontas, Emmeline Pankhurst, Tomyris… just a few influential women off the top of my head…

I like this essay. I am a white malke, and I know I have to feel sheepish about it when I travel in countries that whites have literally destroyed en masse, tortured en masse, and enslaved. But, to end this discussion and prove beyond refutation that whitey should be forever paying reparations to the planet, we need say just Two Words, just two, two to show an example of whte man’s psychological hard wired genetic make up, and that should be enough to cause any white American male to hide his head in shame:
American Indians.
again/
American Indians

Very interesting debate! a blend of race, religion, politics and economics. We are too often governed by self interests in our relationship with others, this is even more glaring when it comes to relationships between states. Foreign policy is too often shelved so as not to offend ‘partners’. Little wonder that Margot Wallstrom is abandoned in Limbo. Reading the passionate write-ups i would suggest that a debate be organized by any interested TV channel, it would certainly be very educative. I would suggest that these same contributors be invited to look at each other, eyeball to eyeball before uttering those very ‘Kind words” i won’t mind making a financial contribution to see it concertized.

Ottomans weren’t Arabs.

I do not agree at all !
I am french. French women have always been worshiped in France as well as in England and everywhere in Europe. Except they did not get the right to vote before 1923, I think, after they worked for it, and one of my great aunt especially !?
For colonialism and slavery, you forget that colonialism, for France, began as a reaction to the moors attacks everywhere in the Mediterranéan sea and even northern europe where they distroyed everything and made, in 7 centuries, much more white slaves than all the slaves made by the whites in the world in history ! So no excuses !
But the subject here is the condition of women in muslim countries : it is very close to slavery, Some women there think, of course, that there is no other state than that for a woman !!
Personaly, I favor intelligent, cultured and free and sexy women (though a servile woman can be fun !) and that’s why I favor the occidental way of life more than the muslim one, for which we are nothing, but miserable creatures of God and therefore not allowed to be happy on earth !!
To Tracy, yes american indians…But it was 150 years ago, so it’s a shame, but it is past !

It is absolutely possible for a woman to be a president in France (as well as a black), and we will probably have one soon, except much less women are interested in politics than men !

Concerning islam, I am not relating to Saudi Arabia ! I have toured the world many times since 40 years and…the islamic world has dramaticaly changed…for the worst ! The muslims I knew 20 or 30 years ago were peaceful and quiet ! They have been replaced by angry, resentful young people, who pretend to know the Coran, but who know only a few sourates where they take every word at its roots instead of at its image ! If we,christians, did the same with the Bible, we would be wild people as we were centuries ago !

And why do you think people are angry (islamophobs, as you say), in our countries ? Look at the chinese. We have over a million in France : there is never any trouble with them ! I am not sure there is even one chinese in our jails which are filled up with arabs and blacks who happen to be muslim, who feel they are exempt to work, but to favor the jihad !

And as a woman, I am surpised you like islam ! I happen
to know the law in Islam since quite a while ! Would you like not to be allowed in public space without a « protecting » man, not being allowed for instance to get a passport without a brother or a husband ? And if you don’thave one at 30, it is because you are a whore ? The woman who took care of my daughter 30 years ago was an algerian, and two times she did not take her
vacations in Algeria because…her brother had «forgotten » to buy her plane ticket (just to show his power !). I read her mariage contract :
her husband had absolutely all rights upon her (including killing her for « suspicion » of adultery) ! She could not ask for divorce, only her husband had this right !

Islam is the religion for men who want power over women : and it is the same in all islamic states. Thank God, some countries are now beginning to react : Egypt, Tunisia… And I wish, especially for women, that they will succeed in eradicating Islam as a politic and social mean
over people ! But the worst are in Europe, filled with anger and jealousy and…convinced they have no future (but almost never trying to check !!).

It seems you did not read what I wrote !!

I am not a racist or somebody who goes with the tide !!
I say what i see, or saw !

To answer your
comments :

1)
I think that women are much less interested in politics
than men ! When I socialize, men often speak about politics, women of
other matters, most of the time, which doesn’t mean they have no opinion !

2)
I feel more secure with angry fanatics in america than
in africa or middle east ! And do not think as if we were responsible for
the past ! We are not, things have changed lately in the christian world, you know ?

3)
The young arabs in France don’t see a future but why do
the young asiatics do ? how comes ? They were as poor 20 or 30 years
ago ! The asiatics are wealthy and trust the best places in universities
now !

4)
If I was an Israeli, I would be angry ! But you
better go in Israël and learn about history of this land since 1900 for
instance : maybe you will understand better ! What is the difference
between a jew and a christian european ? None ! Not at all ! Same
values ! They have a little bit more ambition maybe, but because people
like you hate them for no reason !?

5)
I think I know arabs and blacks, and Islam better than
you do : in France as well as the rest of the world. You have a new
televison or internet generation in islamic countries who just hate the whites :
jealousy, ignorance, lazyness are probably the explanations ?

6)
The muslim girls who go in shorts and Tshirts are less
and less numerous ! They are not allowed anaymore because insulted
everywhere they go in the streets. The only acceptable islam I know now is in
Asia but they also have their extremists and the muslim girls cannot go in
shorts or T shirts there as well ! I have a few morrocan friends, girls, who
came to France, seeking freedom ! Some already exiled to Switzerland where
they are not insulted by muslim men !

7)
Ha, Ha, Ha ! abortion in a muslim country ?
Are you dreaming ? The only, only task given to women in a muslim country
is to make babies. No other !

8)
I will be very afraid when I will go to Ireland or Malta
now ! These irish seem to be very dangerous !? Do they behead ?
In rugby, they are fierce and they often win ! I understand now, with your
explanation !

9)
WAKE UP ! And don’t believe people are racists.
Racism comes with ignorance ! Sweden is an educated country. If people do
not like islam in Europe, there must be a reason ! But it is not racism !
It is a culture gap that cannot be reduced !

You are a white bashing activist !!

You see racist, xenophobics and whatever bad people everywhere !

You have never been in muslim countries and know only by the books unlike me who has travelled, and lived everywhere in the world during 40 years.

You have not seen anywhere in Algeria the hords of young arabs following a single woman as I have, only because they are women and these young men are so much sexually frustrated by the way islam treats women !

You have not seen like me the nice people of Morocco, Tunisia, Egypt, Thaïland, Philippines when they were not doing the Jihad, 30 years and so ago ! These nice people are rejected, bashed, physically fought by fanatics nowadays.

The french are fed up with these millions and millions of muslims (well over 20% of the population) coming from a few tenth of thousands in the 60’s, who do nothing, are lazy, hate the french who welcomed them. Thanks God, there are a few (specially girls) who work, are decent, respectful and respectable !

The real problem everywhere is to integrate them. But it is impossible to debate, to integrate and to take measures if the problem is ignored (by people like you for instance !) as well by politicians !
So stop with you insults : I am not a racist because I do not generalize (like you do).
And you are not the sword of justice who says who is right and who is false !

OK keep your ideas !
As long as you do not confront with reality (like I did), you will not understand that there is a meaning to the word civilization and that most of the time,
Civilizations based on strong beliefs cannot coexist. One will win. And i am afraid our peaceful occidental civilization, nourrishing people like you… can only be swallowed ! But I don’t want my daughter and grand kids to wear a tchador. You do not care, apparently ? Your choice until you will, suddently, open your eyes, well hidden, today, behind the shelter of your good heart !

Mahatma Gandhi, Martin Luther King, Nelson Mandala, Gro Bruntland, Angela Merkel, Eleanor Roosevelt, and many more supported human rights for all. We have had many that were not white males who led nations at critical times.None were perfect in everyone’s eyes, but then nobody is.

too late

This is why we don’t want Sharia law.

I think people know more than enough about sharia law to know they do not want it in Europe or anywhere in the West.

In your case Eugene, I wished Earth was flat, like the Quran teaches in Islam. You would be one of the first people I would push over the edge. You are more than arrogant AND ignorant.

I am no hater. The only emotion I have towards you is pity. You talk about classy, yet yourself make childish remarks if you run out of arguments.

Blinkers will do that to you.

pathologically enamoured with the ‘other” too!

You self hate has been well ingrained.

You need to read more. You are woefully underinformed.

Quran teaches the earth is flat? Citations please.

The western world believed the world was flat long after the Koran was written.

True once upon a number of centuries ago but we evolved. You obviously haven’t.

no, Pashtunwali, the legal system that reigns in Afghanistan, that is a desert tribal law.

if Sharia is invalid because of its age and geographic origin, then Catholic/Orthodox Law, as well as Jewish Halakha, are equally invalid.

Anaxagora did it at first 340 b. c. measuring the shadow of a small stock planted in the soil.

Can’t work out how to use the internet?

I have never lived in South Africa, and my five passports weren’t concurrent, but consecutive.

Is that the best you’ve got, hater?

You’re just another ignorant bogan.

Oh, I see – a Saffer refugee to Australia.

You are in good company – plenty of fellow racists for you to bond with.

Fuck you and your bigotry, you dirty cuntrag.

Non-halal, please stick to the Point, instead of spreading hate and insults “beggar, clown, silly name, loving Islam”. Your type of behaviour is what poisons the net, filling it with crap of intolerance. I don’t know if Goostman “defends islam” somewhere else, but here he has tried to explain some facts, wether he likes the situation or not. Roland, Sweden

Nothing he wrote is anything near as uninformed, nasty, vindictive and hate-filled as your posts. All you have done is to attack him personally for expressing an opinion, while not addressing any of his points in any way other than by telling him he’s a fuckwit.

Get off your high horse – you add nothing to the discussion except your ignorant bigotry.

You should read it too because nothing he’s stated is false, unlike much of the non-factual opinions expressed by the rest.

all religion is only about control, doesn’t contribute anything to this world and will not advance the human race. Lets lose this “blanket” and rely on science and technology… CUNTS

are you talking bout apartheid or multi culturalism, as in the end they both mean the same

I’ve read your comments Eugene. Thanks for sharing your view. Interesting to read. Your effort is very much appreciated, especially against such a “barrage” of BS.

both ‘multi-culturalism and ‘diversity’ are inventions..and were never real…but the slavish devotion to the concepts promulgated by the left in and out of government have resulted in a massive rejection of those ideas…and a real antipathy towards those that hid behind them for their own political ends…one word;Rotherham

SA is Saudia Arabia
gheesh

To be fair, he did discuss apartheid in South Africa, but that was in reference to being called a racist for merely having the temerity to suggest that race had anything to do with the argument.

It doesn’t change the fact that NHFM is a bigoted, nasty, ignorant person without anything to say other than spouting her racist hatred.

Keeping you up, or is it just that anything more than a sentence long strains your ability to focus and sends you into a doze? Maybe you are suffering from something. We can only surmise.

Have you heard of spell-check? it’s a really clever device that helps even the semi-literate.

Is this your normal method for discourse? Can’t work out an actual argument, so throw out shit accusations of pedophilia, bestiality, misogyny.

Of what you just exhibited wasn’t the actions of a hater, I don’t really know what you would call it. Disturbed? Delusional? Just fucking nasty?

All of the above?

It’s clear where the intellectual handicap is being exhibited.

Did mommy pick you up a dictionary out of the trash while she was foraging?

The word salad you indulge in does nothing to further discussion or understanding. Just picking words at random is great at your spelling bee, but not so useful in debate.

I’ve read the whole thread – where was he racist again? By calling apartheid a product of white South Africans? It wasn’t a product of the blacks, now, was it?

Unless you think it’s racist to point out something that’s done only by people of one particular color? To me, that’s pointing out a fact.

If he had said they did it BECAUSE they were white, that’s a different matter, but he didn’t. He said it was white South Africans that instigated apartheid – I think that’s well-documented in history.

It would also be racist if he said it was ALL white South Africans that instigated apartheid, but he didn’t say that either.

So, again, where was the racism?

He did understand.

He asked a simple question, which you can’t answer for the simple reason that you are unable to show that I was racist.

Unless you can?

Really? Where did I do that, then?

Show me or STFU, you mindless imbecile.

I’m not embarrassed in the least, and you haven’t shown any evidence of racism, all you have done is thrown shit, and when offered the opportunity to back up your shit-throwing, have been incapable of supporting your assertion.

Wow! You used that slur so easily and glibly!
Explain yourself?

I asked because I was curious as to the twisted idiocy in your thinking that led you to conclude that there was something in my post that betrayed my racism, seeing as you do not know me from Adam that is.

Seemingly…..little snowflakes can spot some sort of ism in almost anything, except for their own twisted fantasy views that is.

Nothing to do with the people living in Iraq and Iran then? Absolute whatabboutery of the highest order. I am not justifying Western intervention in those nations but to suggest that the West bears the greatest responsibility for the backward views of many inhabitants in those regions is farcical.

Nice of you to finally concede your racism and hypocrisy, to say nothing of the self flagellating bigotry!

Ouch…assailed by ‘maturity’. That’s your trouble, you think you are a cultured man of the world when in reality your bleatings expose nothing more than a undergraduate agitprop swallower!

You keeping accusing people of racism but fail to point out the instances of racism. Seriously, perhaps you could quote the text in future that you see as racist.

You really are the worthy recipient of the title “Cuntrag”.

Eugene Goostman I cant help not to applaud another one of the “chosen” one’s self-indulging meanie statements amounting to a bloated cow’s gas-letting – keep it up Yougene, an Acidic Nobel Price for meanness and rhetoric is waiting just behind the corner for you 🙂 (As uneducated as I am – it could be Assidic…;-)

And you Miss, are an anonymous hater, probably a xenophobuan too.

Eugene are right, you know. And you would know that if you knew anything about religions and judged all religions and their folowers with the same standards.
Yes, there are Christians that do what you Xenophobians rightly accuses some Muslims and Islamic countries do. But there you usually are able to make distinctions between the bd and good.
So grow up, please. Use Internet to learn stuff, not just spread your hate. Use Wikipedia to fill those hole I your education you obviously have, I at least had basic religion orientation education I in 5th grade.

FUCK… ANY religion!!

Do you care about the US women degraded under your laws? Or do you deny that’s a problem?

Why on earth are you ragging in other countries in this. Now, its not OK, but this discussion is about Sharia laws in Saudi Arabia, grow up!!

What part of the US law system degrade women you feel?
Feel free to tell.
Do it for Sweden too.

As a juridical necessity?

Equal pay just to be equal?
Equal amount hired just to be equal?
Equal ethnicity as the population just to be equal?

I’m against that too. I don’t think anyone should be discriminated. For positive or negative advantages.

I’ve seen on Swedish text-TV something like if women was paid fair salaries accounting for their educational level and how much they got done they would have 10% higher salaries than men.

On the other hand I’ve also seen that companies with a female CEO had lower profit margins.

And among billionaires can you guess which university grade is the most common?
Economics? Art? Engineering?
It’s none. As in none at all.

Here in Sweden in jobs which typically have a female majority the men and women earn about the same (within 1%), so it’s already pretty equal there ..

However the way I see it more of those jobs are in the public and health sector where lots of the later is public in Sweden. And salaries usually are lower there on average. And maybe they shouldn’t be.

But rather than enforce equal amount of men in those areas and equal amount of women as chair..people I think focus should be on increased the salaries in the public sector (well, by design lots of the jobs may be trash no-one would spend their own money on so I guess those don’t deserve it, but for things like health-, elder- and child-care one could increase them) which would of course both affect both the women and the men in those areas and solve the actual problem rather than use discrimination.

How are women degraded in the US ? All people are created equal ,where as in islam from birth you are Brain washed into a belief system that controls your very being ..

You are woefully underinformed.

So you are saying that women aren’t degraded by ANY of the laws in the US or the West?

Are you serious?

And ‘ludicrously mistaken’? Is that your word salad du jour? I suspect you just threw that out, because if you had given it the least amount of thought, you would have come to the realisation that you don’t know every, most or even a lot of the laws of the US and the West, so making such a pronouncement is pretty much just plain ignorance.

You want to check out laws relating to women in italy, Hungary and Poland, let alone recent legislation around abortion in many of the US states. Then maybe you can come back and make amends by way of an apology.

uh, oh…one of those simpering apologists

yes…a simpering Marxist, who would no doubt be petty enough to remark on typos, even though he makes plenty himself!

Now….feckoff you little eejit…..:)

Are you a pro? What the feck has the world come to? As I wrote above already, the stench of undergraduate wannabee intellect/activist hangs over e very one of your posts.

I’m just amusing myself… you are getting really worked up over nothing. I was just posting on an internet site, YOU thought you were doing something important and significant. No doubt you think that everything you think and/or do is of massive significance to the whole world.

You are wasting your time. Do something more important.

It is always fun to help a ‘progressive’ cotton on to their own contradictions… you really are squirming with indignation and embarrassment. Why not stop digging?

but you are not… and you know it. Pretentious hipster with the world-view of a student union wallah….and you’re an old man!

You overestimate your own genius. I don’t overestimate either yours or my own.

Your original cultural Fisking is what I called out.You are too ignorant or ‘self absorbed’ to realise the stupidity of your assertion.

That’s very interesting and would be more so, if I lived in SA. That’s their version of shariah, just as the Wahabbist doctrine they follow is their version of Islam.

There’s isn’t applicable to any other country than their own.

I find it a constant puzzle that people aren’t able to comprehend that, just as with Christianity and Buddhism, Islam is different in nearly every different Islamic country.

Because, people are different, they interpret differently. If you look at most large Islamic countries, it is observed differently in different parts of the same country. Especially ones with differing ethnic groups, such as Afghanistan, Iraq, Somalia, Turkey, Indonesia, Iran, China, India, etc.

Kurds observe differently to Druze, to Pashto, to Sufi, to Sunni and Shia. Indonesians in Aceh observe differently than Indonesians in Kalimantan or Java or Papua. And they all observe differently to Bangladeshis.

Because they are different, with a different take on their religion.

You grow up and learn to both read and hold a grown-up conversation and we can talk. Until then, go back to diddling yourself, or whatever else it was that you were doing.

I can make an educated guess…

You mean when I adopted the same tactics as those that have been throwing shit at me?

Excuse me if I don’t cry a f*cking river that you stopped listening.

Where was your protest against those that attacked me, rather than argued the points?

I am sorry that the only thing you thought to contribute was to condemn me for defending myself.

Mate, don’t worry about it.

You won’t change the mind of those ignorant bigots anyway – they aren’t capable of thinking outside their very narrow box…

‘To dislike Islam isn’t bigotry.’ I agree. Where I differ with some is where it it a disguise for prejudice against Moslem people. I know some lovely Moslem people. And I am an atheist. When people don’t make that distinction, you see prejudice and intolerance, the very thing some of these people condemn.

We’re ALL bored now Eugene…You should know that you will get comments that you won’t like…you need to come back to civilisation …it’s where crazy things are said…freely.

Well, as stated before this discussion isnt about Christian idiots its about the opression in a specific country. Its totaly pointless saying… Oh, but they are also bad!!! Its like you are saying, “Oh, they are also bad so we can be bad aas well”. Really stupid point.

Christian and Muslim religion is both based on a stupid belief in fairy tales so yes both should be condemned but… This is as stated before not a discussion about that!

Of the twenty five or so ‘Moslem countries’, which, and in how many, is it enshrined in law?

No It is me who is sorry! I am used to fighting ranting maniacs who want to blame ALL moslems for what the few do.

It was original about sharia laws in general not wanted in Europe. So it was Sharia General and as if the fucked up sharia laws in SA are relevant to Europe or to any other Islamic country.
The fucked up interpretation of Sharia laws in SA are a problem for people living in SA and should not be compared to other countries. It’s like death sentence is a problem in US and not in most other Western countries. Secular or Christians alike.

Yes, like the ones in the Bible too, I assume.
BUT sharia laws only is valid for muslims in secular countries, so as long as we do have freedom of religion, there are nobodies business what muslims do, as long as they follow the secular laws.

A small minority blown out of proportion by the left wing press , the west is based on christian values and the west is a way ahead of Islam in the 21st century only for oil money Saudi Arabia would be just a big dessert full of backward tribes and camels ..

community interdependence…COMMON PURPOSE

LOL!!!! I’m ignorant? 50 million years ago, before its massive meltdown due to natural causes, Antarctica was where it is today and what it is today: a frozen, barren polar ice cap . BTW, I’ve been banned from Mediaite for my anti-warmunist postings.

YALE NEWS

l

Today’s Antarctic region once as hot as California, Florida
By Eric GershonApril 21, 2014

Parts of ancient Antarctica were as warm as today’s California coast, and polar regions of the southern Pacific Ocean registered 21st-century Florida heat, according to scientists using a new way to measure past temperatures.

The findings, published the week of April 21 in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, underscore the potential for increased warmth at Earth’s poles and the associated risk of melting polar ice and rising sea levels, the researchers said.

Led by scientists at Yale, the study focused on Antarctica during the Eocene epoch, 40-50 million years ago, a period with high concentrations of atmospheric CO2 and consequently a greenhouse climate. Today, Antarctica is year-round one of the coldest places on Earth, and the continent’s interior is the coldest place, with annual average land temperatures far below zero degrees Fahrenheit.

But it wasn’t always that way, and the new measurements can help improve climate models used for predicting future climate, according to co-author Hagit Affek of Yale, associate professor of geology & geophysics.

“Quantifying past temperatures helps us understand the sensitivity of the climate system to greenhouse gases, and especially the amplification of global warming in polar regions,” Affek said.

The paper’s lead author, Peter M.J. Douglas, performed the research as a graduate student in Affek’s Yale laboratory. He is now a postdoctoral scholar at the California Institute of Technology. The research team included paleontologists, geochemists, and a climate physicist.

By measuring concentrations of rare isotopes in ancient fossil shells, the scientists found that temperatures in parts of Antarctica reached as high as 17 degrees Celsius (63F) during the Eocene, with an average of 14 degrees Celsius (57F) — similar to the average annual temperature off the coast of California today.

Eocene temperatures in parts of the southern Pacific Ocean measured 22 degrees Centigrade (or about 72F), researchers said — similar to seawater temperatures near Florida today.

Today the average annual South Pacific sea temperature near Antarctica is about 0 degrees Celsius.

These ancient ocean temperatures were not uniformly distributed throughout the Antarctic ocean regions — they were higher on the South Pacific side of Antarctica — and researchers say this finding suggests that ocean currents led to a temperature difference.

“By measuring past temperatures in different parts of Antarctica, this study gives us a clearer perspective of just how warm Antarctica was when the Earth’s atmosphere contained much more CO2 than it does today,” said Douglas. “We now know that it was warm across the continent, but also that some parts were considerably warmer than others. This provides strong evidence that global warming is especially pronounced close to the Earth’s poles. Warming in these regions has significant consequences for climate well beyond the high latitudes due to ocean circulation and melting of polar ice that leads to sea level rise.”

To determine the ancient temperatures, the scientists measured the abundance of two rare isotopes bound to each other in fossil bivalve shells collected by co-author Linda Ivany of Syracuse University at Seymour Island, a small island off the northeast side of the Antarctic Peninsula. The concentration of bonds between carbon-13 and oxygen-18 reflect the temperature in which the shells grew, the researchers said. They combined these results with other geo-thermometers and model simulations.

The new measurement technique is called carbonate clumped isotope thermometry.

“We managed to combine data from a variety of geochemical techniques on past environmental conditions with climate model simulations to learn something new about how the Earth’s climate system works under conditions different from its current state,” Affek said. “This combined result provides a fuller picture than either approach could on its own.”

The paper is titled “Pronounced zonal heterogeneity in Eocene southern high-latitude sea surface temperatures.”

Other co-authors are Alexander J. P. Houben, Willem P. Sijp, Appy Sluijs, Stefan Schouten, and Mark Pagani.

Support for the research was provided by the National Science Foundation, Statoil, and the European Research Council.

Of course you can. Of course, as you obviously don’t care about other child abuse…

Not granted. Your type of extremist is clearly a physical danger to others. As you don’t understand basic logic, as you talk about your personalities and try and threaten me badly again…

You’ve demanded you control my mind, right.

So you’re denying your own post once more then.
And mind control is creepy.

So, you think you mind control “people”. As you demand I be stab-crazy like you.

As you call facts a “catchphrase”.

Psst, you’re looking at the reflection of your own eyes.

And yes, you’re that kind of funny it seems.

So, you call me dangerous. Without cause. Unsurprisingly.

Yes, I know, you’re trying to evade outright libel.

Ah, so you think you can change word’s meanings on the fly, so other people can’t use them, or that words are physical things…

That’s right, you keep saying you control others, as you whine about the existence of other views.

I don’t know that I’ve come across such a nasty response to such an eminently measured comment before.

His post was a call for thought, yours was a stunning example of a complete lack of it.

What a twat you are.

That could be said about every system of governance, everywhere.

Look at the shambles in the US at the moment.

Tl:dr As well as being irrelevant

Tl:dr

Yeh. I think I like the Swedes, not spending buckets of money on weaponry.

Great comment.
Really explains a lot of things and give me a lot to reply too ..
But here you have a few:
* Imported terrorism.
* Imported warriors going to fight wars abroad.
* Rape.
* Robbery.
* Murder.
* Limited freedom of speech.
* Religion stepping back into society.
* Islamization.
* Some topics no longer allowed to be published or discussed.
* Lowered press freedom.
* Stagnant growth.
* More littering.
* Lowered school results.
* Likely result higher taxes, lower pensions.

Unsafer, poorer, less free – YAY!

Also for anyone from a shit country of course Sweden will seem nice anyway.
Because they are comparing to shit.
Now I don’t know who you are..
Personally I live close to lot of immigrants and I’ve though that was ok too. Sure there has been some killing and rapes here so I guess really it’s not. But in general it’s just families with kids posing no threat.
But there’s the different side to it where some of the most vocal multicultural propaganda people may not actually live with it. And hence of course they may not notice it much / don’t see how it’s in other places of the town or country.
There’s of course also the places where most people are immigrants and they may defend and think their area is ok too because as said they compare to shit.

You seem to be the only sensible person on this thread. God knows we need more like you.

That is why in the west, we are governed by secular laws. There is a separation of church and state. People are free to believe what they like and practice whatever religion they choose, however, the laws that they are governed by are secular. I would not want to live any way else.

I would suggest you allow this person her opinion..and dont be so fucking rude.
also she is 100% right in what she said

and I say the same for all religion,

No branch of Christianity promotes stoning people to death

not today…

but once, long ago, it was as much a part of Christian principles as it is for islam today. after all they all originated in the same place, in much the same environments, and stoning in the middle eastern regions is older than the story of Christ itself!

So you ignore the law of the UK. Right.

Those tiresome facts.

“SILENCE, JEW” you scream. I did address the point of course – your ignoring the law of the UK, one of your many enemies.

So you deny your own posts.

If someone replies to a post, they’re replying to that post. See how that works?

So, go back, see where I said you were denying a post…and it’s the post I was replying to.
See, simple, Mr. Two Planks Short of a Biscuit.

(YES THAT IS SARCASM)

Ah, so you think you’ve trapped me or whatever. As you have problems.

You miss the point – there is no such thing as a universal ‘Shariah’ set of laws. Every country has their own interpretation, their own level of adherence to Shariah.

I don’t live in Saudi Arabia, I have no idea of the extent of their Shariah – except that there are many in their country that are exempt, as is the Sultan of Brunei (who is apparently infallible and thus, above any laws).

This gives you a good idea of the spread and level of integration of Shariah – you will note that the number of countries where Shariah is fully-adopted as the main legal system is very much in the minority within Islam.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Application_of_sharia_law_by_country

That’s YOUR opinion. For many of the nearly 3M UK Muslims, they welcome the ability to access Shariah courts.

What does it matter to you if they, or Rabbinical courts, exist? They don’t affect you, aren’t compulsory and require the acuquiecense of both parties in order to deliver a ruling.

It’s like men being against the sale of bras. It really has nothing to do with you.

So you are freaking out about a hypothetical situation that can’t actually ever happen?

Do you know about the legislation surrounding the use of ecclesiastical, including rabbinical and shariah, courts in the UK?

Are you aware of how long the UK has had ‘alternative’ types of court and how many there are?

The Beth Din has been in the UK for more than two centuries, the scope of which is almost identical to that of Shariah – they are more similar than they are different.

English law states that any third party can be agreed by two sides to arbitrate in a dispute – this allows for all manner of ecclesiastical courts and for such institutions as labour relations courts, tribunals, etc.

They have no oversight over criminal law and there is no way that will change without a major shift in UK law.

Beth Din and whoever else youre so well informed about arent trying to fucking blow us up while yelling ALLUAH aKBAR

You are pretty ignorant about the subject.

Do some research.

A post like that and you accuse him of trolling?

Shariah courts in the UK are only available for civil matters.

Do some basic research before letting your ignorance shine through.

Clearly you are not a woman and don’t even think about how Shariah affects us. There have been real and serious attempts to get Shariah introduced in Britain as an option, I attended debate about it in a committee room at the House of Commons. Why not take a look in the mirror and see if you like what you see?

“There have been real and serious attempts to get Shariah introduced in Britain”

Oh please. When? I will bet you cannot provide a single instance to support that claim. There has never been any such attempt. You may have attended a debate about Sharia Law, but there never has been a debate about introducing it.

Sharia Law is exercised privately only within Islamic communities and is overridden by the laws of the land. And the only times Islamic communities resort to Sharia laws is to address things like Islamic marriages etc. Unless you are Muslim, it would not even apply to you. There has never been any attempt to introduce it alongside the UK legal framework.

Mosaic Law and Sharia Law are derived from the same base. The interpretation, however, is up to the Rabbi, Imam, or Minister, and his/her followers. The largest predominantly Muslim country in the world, Indonesia, has a female Prime Minister. Golda Meir was Israel’s first PM. Not every Protestant church is fundamentalist. In nations and communities where the government is based in religious fundamentalism of any kind, you have a strong chance of tyranny taking over.

Perhaps the problem lies with patriarchal authoritarian preferences as women are treated shabbily in countries where they are perceived as inferior to men. This problem is global; however, the West does try to implement laws to rectify the social disregard for women. Australia allows rapists off on bond to rape again or rape and murder. And women who try to press rape charges tend to be violated again by the system. But rape victims are not forced to marry their rapist or ordered to death for shaming their family. Sharia law appears extreme and ultra-biased against women.

Such attitudes also exist in South Africa and Turkey to name only a few countries that are not essentially Wahabbist or Arab. Wahabbists are Muslims and Arabs are predominantly Muslim, and the Middle-Eastern style of government tends to be patriarchal authoritarian. The Macho tough guy who rules with an iron fist is admired.

The prevailing notion that women are inferior objects to serve men extends into many Western and non-Muslim homes where rape and abuse of females is justified by men as well, but is not legally or culturally sanctioned. Where fundamentalist religious beliefs corrupt legal rights and political decisions, women are not treated fairly. Google honor killings and brace yourself for a shock. Such killings are also occurring in Western countries, but again, the law and government do not condone such a practice.

Mind you, I do agree that violence against women extends beyond the boundaries of Muslim countries to many non-Muslim nations. To scapegoat Saudi and Muslims denies the fact that violence against women is an international problem. Unfortunately, the legal, political, cultural and religious systems in Saudi tend to normalise the segregation of women as second class citizens. This is the truth often denied by fundamentalism and patriarchy. Women suffer under such regimes.

The real problem is that some people impose Sharia law in the West under the guise that this is “normal and just” at home. Despite living in Australia, I know of men from Egypt, Iraq and Serbia who felt entitled to beat or murder their wives for daring to leave them as this was common practice where in their homeland. Try telling an enraged assailant that his law does not apply to you when he decides to attack. It is not to do with your own consciousness but an awareness of the potential consciousness of those around you as well. Sharia law poses a risk when those around you approve of it despite living in New York or Melbourne.

“as this was common practice where in their homeland. ”

But still illegal.

I’m sure there are Australian men that murder their wives too.

It would be great if you had a point to add to the debate rather than attacking screen names, “Wesley”.

Indeed! Lets hope that in the near future you get accused (even falsely) of Blasphemy in the great country that you live in.

What you have said matches what I know about Shariah law in Britain, but most people don’t take the trouble to find out the truth.

Not in the middle east. Never happen.

Some countries are ‘relatively’ enlightened, like Oman and Jordan, but they are still very much male preserves.

But… Islam isn’t confined to the Persian Gulf – there are many more Muslims outside the patriarchy of the Arab states, many of them, in countries such as Malaysia, Indonesia, Brunei, India, have civil rights about the same level as women in the west enjoyed in the 50s and early 60s.

What people tend to forget is that in those countries (apart from India perhaps), is that socially, educationally and developmentally, they are about 50 years behind the West. They are learning to stand on their own two feet and, just as was the case in most countries of the West less than 50 years ago, women are only just finding their voice. Luckily they have modern role models to look to for methods for engaging change.

Privileged Westerners demanding instant change because they are offended doesn’t matter a flying f*ck to some woman in the 21st century in Bangladesh, Malaysia, Brunei, Oman – she is very aware that more women than men in her country have degrees, that she works, on average, 6 hours less a day than her mother did, that she has running water in her kitchen, that she has local healthcare and maternity services, that she has the right to travel without a male escort, that she has the choice to work and get a government-mandated minimum wage for that work.

Pointing to one of the WORST countries in the world for human rights and making out that they are the norm is as typical an argument as used by conservatives to pillory any change, any social reform, any new idea that makes them uncomfortable.

Context is everything. Context in religious laws, even more so.

This is where global politics become necessary. As a member of society, I accept that they are in charge of their own destiny. Do what you want. But as a human there comes a point where the barbaric actions of many, not just a radical uncontrollable few, must be addressed. Anyone who condones the stoning of a young girl or the mutilation of women has something wrong with them. If you are told something is okay enough times, you will begin to believe it. I don’t care if a lot of people get together and say this is our way of life. They are wrong. Period. There is no defense to the position of killing and mutilating other humans, especially in the name of a non existent diety.

Once again you cannot measure what is in front of you. The action of some lunatic is terrible, but it was one man. Just like when your religious idiots blow something up. Mutilating women and killing children on a mass scale supported by a religionand participation by thousands is wrong. And you are wrong. I don’t care that you are in another country. Wrong is wrong. But I will give you this. Do what you want to your people. Stay away from mine and keep your idiotic ideals to yourself

You keep on wheeling out those “facts” about the US.
Do you have any figures to go with those “facts”
I’ll give you some facts. In the UK 1 in 8 of the 85k prison population is a foreign national.
Muslims make up 14% of the overall prison population yet make up less than 5% of the overall population. To many that would suggest a problem along cultural and religious lines.

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/339036/prison-population-2014.xls

Care to address any of the published figures? Otherwise you are losing your shine in my eyes fella.

Lol. And you accuse me of not reading your posts. You’ve managed to hammer out your comment with your knuckles, I assume you know how to click a link?
Fill your boots fella.

Wonderous response. Not sure how you got to it, but who knows how such a warped mind as yours works

No it’s definitely not that.

Facts were published. Hint! It’s the link.

I’m mystified why you think so.

What newspaper headline? I suggest you don’t know the figures yourself.

If that’s what you interpret my comment as saying. But provide rationale for that rather than cheap shots.

Yes you’re cheap.

Just applying your methodology in debate. Although I find it quite demeaning.

I’d like to think you’ve exhausted your idiocy, alas I suspect I’m wrong. I’m calling a halt to this abortion of a debate. Until next time. Ta Ta

Ha ha, that’s a bit racist isn’t it?
So long Leon.

Wash your mouth out. You don’t like the figures because it goes against the grain.
Seeing I wasn’t focussed on Asians or the percentage increase in foreign nationals you are being somewhat dishonest.
You also have not linked your statistics with the numbers of foreign nationals by ethinicity in the country. I think you’ll find that white eastern Europe and make a much higher percentage than the others.
Since you can’t refute my figures based on religion and the uncomfortable truth you take the usual lefty approach of branding me a supporter of the national front.
But there you go. You types use the same ploy wherever you are found

Did you click the link of prison population by religion and sex A1.8? I don’t know how it could be any clearer. You as well as I do know the Muslim population in the UK is just under 5 million. Do the mathematics.

A very articulate and emotive response. But you are over generalizing. Especially with comments like “Happy, wealthy, healthy, stable people don’t commit crimes. ” That is stretching it a bit. Unfortunately, we’ll never know as the figures aren’t segmented on occupation. If we’re generalizing then wouldn’t it be reasonable to suggest there is a problem with values of certain segments of society. I suggest the figures suggest something is at odds.
Your last point in the UK being cr@p at assimilating anyone only goes to show the warped perception liberalists hold. Isn’t it the responsibility of those arriving here to assimilate with us. They have to embrace us. They are given all the tools to do so. Why is it only certain ethnic minorities who struggle with this?
It’s never their fault is it!

Points well made but I have to disagree with you on so many levels. So I’ll start at the end and work my way back. Please forgive me, but as you based your argument on anecdotal evidence allow me to do the same.

I too have family and friends in the police, criminal justice,  education and the NHS and they have largely come to quite the opposite conclusion as you.

It is an absolute fallacy to suggest that immigrants do not get the help and support they need.
Help is there if you want it. The fact that assimilation seems to be an issue for a particilar segment of society, it seems to suggest they have a problem with the concept of integration.

Tell me how in this day and age we can be in a situation where first generation pakistani migrants have wives who are still unable to speak a word of English after being here more than 50 years? Its not that they haven’t had the opportunity. ESOL courses in English are widely available. It’s down to an unwillingness to integrate.

Don’t you think this is largely due to the dogmatic nature of their culture and religion. The moment they or their offspring made/make any attempt to assimilate properly the first generation drag them back in.

Don’t forget the first generation migrants were here for work, not fleeing war or persecution, so why come somewhere if you have no intention of embracing the culture.

The second and third generation have had all the opportunities and benefits of education, healthcare etc that we have had. They have no excuse. Yet because of their parents unwillingness to assimilate they are unable to integrate themselves for fear of being ostracised by their community. They are confused and as a result more likely to become radicalised or criminalised. It is nothing to do with what we haven’t done, more what they are not allowed to do by their own community.

Let’s also not ludicrously suggest that this is purely the domain of northern textile towns. This is across the whole country.

As a native of one of those northern industrial cities I can tell you the Pakistani community is not poverty stricken. There is an awful lot of money sloshing around the “Asian” community. Hence the reason you see very few homeless Asians, very few Asians using food banks and soup kitchens and I wouldn’t mind betting those young asians in Rotherham to which you alluded are driving a car you could only dream of owning. I witness this regularly myself seeing as that is my home turf. One particular chap I went to uni with was dealing in cars of dubious history and had 25 different identities and needless to say He was trading without declaring. He was proud of that. Another colleague seems to think it is a viable business model for taxi drivers to claim fraudulently for staged road traffic accidents. Not to mention many of the black cab drivers use their cabs for personal use to ferry their families around. This is illegal. My relative in the police got reprimanded by his superiors for ticketing those offenders to “uphold community cohesion” Basically, the law doesn’t apply to them.

They are not assimilated because they don’t want to be assimilated and they know they can take the p!ss.

Tell me why my grandparents who migrated as refugees from war torn europe had no such problems in integrating and assimilating in the late 40s. My grandfather was polish and escaped german pow camps three times before finding an army he could fight with against the Germans, the British army. He had no English at the time. He learnt. He never made it home because of the Russian occupation.
My grandmother escaped the poverty stricken south of Italy at the same time. No English or skills yet managed to learn the language, and work productively in the nhs for more than 30 years. That was their ethic and as a result there is a vibrant polish and Italian community.
I’d even go as far as saying the recent eastern Europeans have made a better hand at integrating than those asians who came 50 to 60 years before them. Also the Chinese, Indians etc etc etc have few problems. If it works for everyone else …………why the issue with that segment of society.

We are to blame partly by allowed our multiculti, common purpose spin doctors to set the narrative that they should be treated differently. Turning a blind eye when they commit the most heinous crimes against people in our community, again for community cohesion.
The abuse and sexual exploitation of underage white girls by muslim men of many backgrounds, professions and nationalities on an almost industrial scale across the whole country is a case in point.
How many in their defence stated they didn’t know it was illegal or more importantly have and sense of morality that what they were doing was wrong.
The tip of the iceberg has barely been exposed with regard to this scandal and many more cases and perpetrations will come to light in coming years.
We ought to build more prisions because the Muslim prison population will double in the next 5 years.

If we can’t even assimilate those that came here of their own accord then why on earth would we want to import more of those “uneducated souls ”

Maybe you should also open your eyes to what is actually happening in our communities. Look to Swedish towns and cities and the numerous no go zones in France and Germany to understand what is heading our way.

I agree sex trafficking and child pornography are terrible.but that doesn’t end a life or cause mutilation. It is a completely different thing when you murder people and mutilation of women. if you can’t see the difference then I cannot talk to you because you’re incapable of measuring the severity of these actions

Actually, I think if a person is going to move to another country, such as the case of a muslim person, that person should be willing to abide by the laws of their host country, not Sharia law or any other law for that matter. I think the same thing applies to an American or European as well. If I ever wanted to expatriot to another country, I would never expect to be governed by a separate set of laws just because I am an American. If I lived in Saudi Arabia,(which I never will btw), I would never expect the Saudi government to to respect my constitutional rights because If I am on their soil I would have to be subjected to their laws. The same applies anywhere else. I do not think that it is a good idea to have sharia courts in America, I think immigrants should be governed by our laws and respect the hospitality of their host countries.

yeah sharia law doesn’t affect non muslims at all! except for the points like a non muslim assaulting a muslim is a very severe crime, but the other way around, well it is just educating an unbeliever how to be. or a non muslim man raping a muslim woman is punishable by death, but a muslim man raping a non muslim woma, well she was asking for it.

don’t talk shit saying sharia has no effect on non-muslims. in regions where sharia is the rule of law, non muslims have little to no rights. aside from that, sharia is a law based on religious ideologies which themselves are based on fairytales thousands of years old and never meant to be anything more than an oral guide to living humanistically. as with many things it has been manipulated and abused for the purposes of control of the people through superstitious nonsense. and often its followers even ignore the local law of the land if it doesn’t fit to their sharia expectations, such as in the matters of divorce, assault, rights for women.

I find it highly ignorant that you would claim to live under sharia and say it has no affect on you. although if you are a hermit who never exposes themselves to the muslim community in which you must live to be under sharia law, then that would make sense… and also show that you likely know little about anything else either.

take for example the idea of halal certification. in western countries, for the most part, it is the same as safe food handling practices, and yet even though this is so, the Islamic community raises hundreds of millions and more every year from halal certification fees. now im not muslim. yet products I buy are halal certified and as such incur an increase in their costs. but the institutions raping all that money from the community for safe food handling principles which companies are already forced to adhere to don’t get taxed because its a religious cost. if you cant see the arrogance and hypocrisy of that, then youre clearly an idiot.

if they want to enforce their ideologies, then they should also pay to do so. the halal costs should be covered by the Islamic community ONLY. if they want THEIR beliefs and culture respected, then they MUST do the same in western countries. and yet, they don’t. they demand concessions, like being allowed to demand fees for something that is already a part of the system, just without a muslim saying prayers and waving his hands about… (I mean seriously since when has making words and symbols over a leg of lamb prevented food poisoning?) or being allowed to demand muslim-only facilities in non muslim countries or cry discrimination if they don’t get them? even tho by getting their demands serviced they are actually the ones DOING the discriminating? or the hypocrisy of demanding women cover up in muslim lands, and that non muslim men don’t ‘befoul’ muslim women, even while going out into the world and fornicating like rabbits with as many non muslim women as they can get their grubby little mits on?

sharia doesn’t affect non muslims?

lmfao…

ok pal…

I think your actual problem is you have been in those places so long you cant see through the bullshit. sucks to be you.

ive seen plenty of cases in both majority muslim and non muslim nations, where muslims always use ‘it is not in my religion’ as a means to ‘excuse’ their attitudes and behaviours. there are plenty of cases of non muslim men being imprisoned and killed for even sleeping with a willing muslim woman, and on the flip side, the non muslim women who have been punished or killed (by things like stoning of all things!) for disgracing the muslim man who raped her.

the fact you cant see any of that and still claim shariah is ‘integrated’ with law just shows youre too close and too blind to the truth.

simple FACT is, religious law, religious ‘taxes’ (halal) have ABSOLUTELY NO FUCKING PLACE AND NO FUCKING RIGHT to be imposed upon ANYONE, as it is ALL based on fairytales and fictions, and in the case of islam, the words of a psychotic warmongering paedophile.

wherever Islamic populations are being built in western countries, they are DEMANDING, not requesting, but DEMANDING that they be allowed to use their OWN RELIGIOUS DOCTRINE to govern themselves, within the borders of whichever nation they settle in, yet separate from the peoples within whos borders they wish to settle. but try that in ANY of those majority muslim countries, including whichever deluded shithole youre spewing your garbage from, and you will likely be in need of medical treatment. and that’s the BEST outcome!

ALL muslim nations have laws against ‘insulting’ islam or its prophet. and yet feel they have the right to disclaim and ‘minimise’ all other religions, calling them all false etc. the hypocrisy knows no limits. and neither does your ignorance.

A disappointing response Eugene. You have the opportunity to refute what he says with evidence yet you have fallen into the trap of mindless insults.
Is any of what Aaron says true, is it all fabricated?
Your response could very well suggest to a great number of people following this conversation that he may have just hit on a few truths.
If he’s innaccurate and you are suggesting he is, tell us why.

No I was hoping you would actually engage in the debate instead of lowered oneself to name calling. I standby my comment.

Sharia law discriminates women. End of story.

From your post we can understand that it is exactly our ignorance, our feeling that this “barely scratches our consciousness”, which keeps the sharia law intact and under no scrutiny whatsoever. Whatever happens to those poor women – well … not our business, right? Besides … it must be great to be born a male. So many privileges, right in your crib!

I live in a Shariah country, as an expat US worker. It really doesn’t affect me, except for the mandatory closures on Friday, the alcohol restrictions and now, a complete lack of tourism, thanks to the governments ham-fisted approach to bringing in new laws.

Much worse than Shariah is the incessant paperwork required for every little thing.

Still, fat salaries, free housing, medical, travel, no tax and a pleasant climate more than make up for that. And no crime -I never lock my car or my house, although I did hear of a car being stolen last year… Probably a bungled insurance job. Why would you steal a car on an island?

Is hyperbole a constant in your life? Do you find people walk away from you at social events?

Here’s some free education for you:

Shariah law around the world is not the same. Different countries apply it according to their needs and desires. Shariah in the UK is only applied to commercial or civil transactions and has to be agreed upon by both parties. Shariah here is only for civil matters. Criminal courts are run on the Westminster system and have a set of five high court judges from Britain that hear serious cases.

Women in the country I work in aren’t ‘suffering appalingly’ – unless they are missing out on that last piece of chicken at the buffet or didn’t get the newest phone in the Ramadan sales.

Shariah law, as practiced here, is not “a system of total and absolute oppression”, it is a way of integrating their religion with their daily lives, in the way of contract law, family law, financial law, social and education statutes. Such as: All Muslim students must pass the compulsory Islamic studies, just as they must pass English and Mathematics in order to attend college and university. This represents a hardship for those that don’t study, but you couldn’t really describe it as repression.

It is somewhat better than living under Stalinism – there are no gulags, there are no summary executions, there is no secret police, there is no forced labor. There are shortages though. A couple of months ago you couldn’t get a bar of Cadbury’s chocolate for love or money.

I haven’t “acquiesce[d] to a vile theocratic fascist regime” – as I said, Shariah law is barely evident, although there were Islamic police telling people that they couldn’t hang Christmas trees outside their shops last december. The trees weren’t banned – just the location as it was making walking down the sidewalk difficult.

You really need to get out more and stop reading Stormfront for your news.

Racist

Religious law is by definition oppressive as it leaves no room for varying viewpoints nor is it concerned with what is pragmatic and works best for society.

I have traveled far and wide in the Muslim world and so have seen for myself the oppressive attitudes towards women both culturally and decreed in law.

Of course, there are many differences between nations and the level to which nations are prepared to implement the Shariah but the fact of the matter is that only a fool would say the society is best run on the basis of scribblings by a barely literate merchant from 7th century Arabia, if it even was Mohammed who wrote it down.

You are deluded if you think Shariah is beneficial to the empowerment of women in the Muslim world.

“What a crock” is not a proper rebuke.

“But you still want to put them all in the same boat?”

At a fundamental level religious law is wrong, the law must be secular and free from the interference of ideology. In that sense they are all the same but of course the severity of outcomes is worse in Iran or Saudi Arabia than it is in the United States or Egypt.

I am opposed to religious meddling in law, it is no place for it. The state and religion must be separate.

It is their sovereign right but it is not to the benefit of society.

“At a fundamental level religious law is wrong, the law must be secular and free from the interference of ideology.”

Is that some sort of law of nature?

You are making absolutist statements that are the outlier. Very few countries, including your own, have such a system.

The UK and US laws are full of religious doctrine. Look at the laws on marriage, for a start.

At a fundamental level, your laws came about through religious law. The ten commandments are the basis for most law in the Christian world.

Who made you ultimate emperor to decide for other countries what they would like for a legal system? Personally, when you look at the adversarial law as practiced in the US, UK and the Commonwealth, it looks barbaric compared to the inquisitorial system as practiced in most of Europe and the Americas.

Are you going to make a dictate that they are wrong too?

“Religious law is by definition oppressive as it leaves no room for varying viewpoints”

So, ‘thou shalt not kill’ is oppressive?

The point was that killing should be oppressed. So maybe oppression isn’t always a bad thing.

I never stated that other countries do not have problems. Absolute oppression, as women are not considered a full human being it should be a given that women have the same rights as men. Women are not equal in Islam and will never be equal in a society run according to Islamic dogma.

My perceptions are based on reading Islamic literature, visiting the Middle East and my own experience living in London of socially conservative Islamic groups.

Women are not recognised as full human beings in Muslim countries. Name a few where there is parity of rights between men and women?

It is a problem in Islam, which is a patriarchal religion. Yes, of course there are similar problems in other religions but I never stated otherwise, we are talking about Islam.

I am not only bashing Islam because it is ‘popular’ whatever that means. Problems for women are far worse in Islamic countries than in most other nations on the planet, this is a sad fact to face.

I am not presenting a black and white binary to you but I am saying that religion does little to empower women, especially Islam at the moment and following this, Islamic law is detrimental to the advancement of women.

Absolute balderdash! The UK has a patriarchal society but women and men are considered equal and have the same fundamental rights in law. It is a secular nation where the law is at least suppose to be the result of pragmatic evidence based thought. This situation is entirely different to the status quo in nation-states governed by Abrahamic religious doctrine.

Men occupy most positions of power in the private and public sector, which to me suggests the UK is a patriarchal society, though things are changing rapidly and the UK will not remain so for long.

Why are you bringing up sovereignty? I am not arguing that it is not the sovereign right of a state to decide its own laws. I am stating that the implementation of religious law in a state is not beneficial to its society and the empowerment of women (which was my original point).

Semantics, I mostly agree with your first point.

I never argued that it was not a nations sovereign right to decide their own laws! I don’t want to force people to change but I do want to make people aware, who perhaps have been indoctrinated since birth into religious doctrine and who are looking for a way to better themselves and their nation.

You didn’t answer the question: “Have you been to the middle east or any Islamic country?”

On the same passport? I find that hard to believe. Also given your posting history, I find that hard to believe. If you did, you went around with your head buried in your nethers.

I used to have to travel to Israel and other parts of EMEA. We always kept a separate passport for Israel – and the FO was happy with that. Trying to get into the UAE with a passport that had an Israeli stamp in it was asking to be turned over in a four-hour customs marathon.

“Shows how little you care for women”

It shows what? So his working as an expat shows that he is a misogynist?

No doubt you carry all the ills of the country you live in, purely because you live there.

The UK is secular? You might want to talk to the Archbishop of Canterbury about your misapprehension.

You might want to talk to the Archbishop of Canterbury:

The Church of England Assembly (Powers) Act 1919 (9 & 10 Geo. 5 c. 76)[1] is an Act of the Parliament of the United Kingdom that enables the Church of England to pass primary legislation called Measures. Measures have the same force and effect as Acts of Parliament

And yet I just provided you with actual evidence of actual legislation about actual CofE powers in law.

OK. It’s all a figment of my imagination – 3,2,1, you’re back in the room.

you mean that you turn a blind eye to the everyday cruelty of the culture and law amongst which you live and whose institutions you suck the teat of… how disgusting!

pillock.

“Still, fat salaries, free housing, medical, travel, no tax and a pleasant climate more than make up for that.”

Your own comments state quite nicely about your male attitude and mindset. I’m alright jack…whats in your wallet!

I think you will find that is what is known, in the wider world, as acerbic wit, or sarcasm.

Given the tirade of hateful posts to what seem like information-filled rejoinders on his part, I can see why he has taken that route.

I can’t be bothered being so polite.

It doesn’t affect YOU so f—k everyone else, especially the women, eh?

And your contribution was what, exactly? A demand?

Sorry, I don’t jump to the whim of some self-important moderators-wannabe

I’ve read your posts, so yes, it seems I now know all about them – or the ones in here, at any rate.

I don’t force my thinking on anyone, unlike you who seems quite comfortable telling others what to think and do.

It’s clear the hypocrisy of your post has completely gone over your pointy little head.

“My people” reside in South Carolina, I am glad they are “Taking advantage of an open culture”, it’s what we are told to do from an early age.

Get some more of those volts working, Arthur, it seems you are a few short of a battery.

So that means I have to shut up?

Force of numbers doesn’t make you right. Twenty falsehoods don’t make a truth.

It’s clear how it works in your world – shout it down so you are right. Shut dissent so you are the only voice, therefore making your opinion the ‘truth’.

Got it. Muzzle anything that doesn’t accord with your ignorant, uneducated view.

Idiocracy in action.

You cretinous moron.

still don’t want it. No religion-based law should see the light of day in any civilized country. We are fighting the crazy religious fanatics in the US right now and it’s no picnic.

What I want to hear Eugene is your justification for the brutal punishment the Saudis leveled on a woman who’s crime was creating a blog about the midieval restrictions Saudi Arabia puts upon women. That’s what Shariah law is to most of us Westerners, tell me why this court ordered punishment should not be considered representative of Shariah standards of justice?

Okay, I’m not defending the laws, but I’ll try to explain. If the law of a land forbids criticizing the establishment, then it’s the law. When the law is broken, the offender must be punished.

It’s not a Sharia issue. It’s more a human rights issue. The same applies in Russia and China and many other places. The consequences may differ (assassinations in Russia, imprisonment in China, etc). but it’s really a human right issue, and not one that is exclusive to Saudi Arabia.

What an asinine comment.

Clearly you don’y know anything about religious courts in Western countries – you already have religious courts in the USA – so it’s only Muslim religious courts you object to?

How much effort have you put in to railing against the Beth Din or the Permanent Judicial Commissions of the US Presbyterian Church? They have the same kinds of standing in law as the Muslims are seeking for their Shariah courts.

There’s a lot of hysteria generated by people with very little knowledge on the subject.

I would suggest you educate yourself before attempting to speak knowledgably on a subject which you are clearly unfamiliar.

“Goodness! Are oyu a muslim? You are familiar with Shariah?”

To answer your first draught:

No, I’m not a muslim. I’m also not a christian, buddhist, hindu, animist, mormon, scientologist or follower of the Flying Spaghetti Monster.

How is that relevant?

I can read, I can think, I can discuss with people of faith, I can understand arguments. I also have lived in majority-Muslim countries for many years. If you open your eyes and ears, it allows you to gain perspective.

“And what does your sister or daughter think about it?” My daughter is ambivalent, as it doesn’t apply to her – being a western woman and not a Muslim. My wife is less charitable, she has had friends that have suffered the trials of Shariah law, for what she sees as unjust reasons.

But she understands that it is their society, their law, their choice – not ours and we aren’t really in a position to judge their choice.

Tell us the good bits, do.

Tell me, do you have a similar aversion to Jewish communities following Halakha, or Dutch Amish communities in Pennsylvania following Ordnung? Because there would be no difference between a local community of Muslims following Sharia and some Chasidic community following Halakha.

I’m against all religious law, but the reality is that many people here in the US already follow local legal systems that are analogous to Sharia, and to deny Muslim communities the right to to follow Sharia, would be discrimination. Ban Halakha and Ordnung, and then sure, we can ban Sharia too, but until then, shut the fuck up.

Feminism is a much better idea than islam.
Oh – and if a world with equal rights for men and women is all so bad for you; why don’t you convert to islam then? Then you may legally slap your woman, and legally rape your woman. You traitor.

What a loser! I read your replies and they are so full of nonsense. Bless, you finally found an impoverished indonesian that let’s you rub your pot belly, wrinkled self on her but it doesn’t make you an expert.

that won’t help you

I’ve read your posts, you do seem to resort to insults very quickly. Why is that?

I thought that it was obvious but as you are a mindless liberal, you don’t see the facts as they stare at you. I hate people like you. Simple enough?

It actually did. It has solved a lot of terrible problems since the dawn of time. Ceausescu was hated. Look at what the brilliant Romanians did. Hitler was hated. He’s gone. Most of Eastern Europe is staunchly anti-Muslim. They have zero percent of the problems we have.

It’s a good and decent thing to hate evil with every fibre of one’s being.

You can hate an evil ideology, like Britain hated Nazism in the 30s and 40s. This is not a ‘solution’ – just a natural result from the state of affairs.

More and more people are waking up seeing Islam for what it is. This is unavoidable, and it’s a good thing. Glossing over it with pacifist slogans is not a ‘solution’ either.

Things will take their natural course when enough people are pissed off.

You might as well call yourself ‘Nazi’ because that’s what your name represents.

When politicians deploy the military they are, in my opinion, redistributing wealth.

People without a rational arguement often resort to insults

I don’t entirely agree with you. If a woman deliberately excites a man, then expects him to switch off again when she has had her fun, then she should accept some of the blame. We are controlled largely by our hormones, and not everyone can suppress that. Women should understand that even more than men … how many of them get narky due to PMT ? Are men supposed to do what women can’t, and suppress an overdose of testosterone ? Women should be free to decide what their place is, whether it be fully equal, subservient, or dominant … with whoever they choose.

What I do will be entirely consensual (that means above the age of consent), and the only two times that I have lost my temper in my 56 years resulted in a broken nose (the other guy’s, when I was in school), and a broken window (my own). I have never been so drunk that I didn’t remember.
However, I do recognise that some people have less self control that I have, and that hormones can overrule brains, and even concience.
Another scenario is when a martial artist reacts to an assault attempt by breaking the assailants arm (or whatever). A judge thinks that the reaction was extreme, but a martial artist, whether a soldier or sportsman, trains to react by reflex, not by thought. If he thinks, he has lost, possibly his life. Even in the street, he doesn’t know if the assailant has a knife, a gun, an accomplice, or may be an even better fighter than he is, so he takes the assailant down so that he stays down.

Despicable comment.

Don’t blame the victims, that is plain wrong.

And women should not learn how to protect themself, men should learn how to treat women and other men.

@Shane Kennedy, I don’t no what you was talking about with “honor killings”, but that is a cultural thing, and it is also a part of the western culture. There are many women that get beaten and killed because they are not behaving like the man who think he owns them think is proper.

So yes, “honor killing” is alive and kicking in western christian culture too. And so are it in Christian and Muslim societies in middle east too, and so in Africa.

The majority of the followers of ideologies are irrelevant as history has shown..
The majority of Russians were irrelevant when millions died in the name of Marxism.
The majority of Germans were irrelevant when Jews were gassed.
The majority of Chinese were irrelevant when the communists killed millions.
The “extreme” (or pure) followers will do the enforcements, and the killings, whilst the “moderate” majority does nothing.

You are so naive.

WTF is it with you lot and Indonesia? I haven’t been to Indonesia. I don’t know any Indonesians. I can’t recall ever having met an Indonesian. I do know a Filipino that lives in Jakarta, does that count?

He’s a fat old guy like me, though.

As to getting laid, you’ll have to ask my many children whether they need a DNA test or not.

Fuck you, cuntrag.

what system might you mean ,regarding “that system”….Blu Soulstn..? and what “crap” here in the west…

Definitely more than a little rapey there, Shane.

How long do you typically beat ‘your woman’ for until she submits? Or has she learned now?

You have fallen into the trap of equating the stone-age Wahhabist version of Islam as practiced in Saudi Arabia with Islam as practiced by another 2B people around the globe.

If you think of Saudi Islam as akin to the Westboro Baptist Church, you should reduce your overall alarm at the behavior of Saudis and stop equating their behavior with that of the majority of Muslims worldwide.

I live in a muslim country and while there isn’t much crime at all, women and men are treated equally with regard to criminal statutes.

You are talking about Jizya? I don’t pay a cent in tax more than any other citizen. As far as I am aware, it isn’t levied anywhere in the Muslim world. Your ‘news’ is leading you down a path of ignorance, something you don’t seem that bothered in showing.

Again, and for what seems like the thousandth time, THAT IS SAUDI ARABIA, not Islam.

You have Christian ‘Militias’ in Africa committing genocide, cannibalism, rape, mutilations – they no doubt represent all Christians because… they have it in their name.

Why is it so hard to understand that Saudi Arabs are ignorant sheep herders that have been given the biggest lottery win in the world – they are not ‘Islam’ – their laws are stone-age, their society is decidedly misogynistic, tribal, nepotistic, but it’s one country.

Oman, a country right alongside, doesn’t do any of what you said – they are a moderate Islamic democracy. And they aren’t Arabs.

And that is a telling point – there are a couple of stand-out countries that have codified such barbaric behavior – Saudi and its aligned Arab states is one, Pakistan is another.

But Bangladesh, the other Muslim state on the Indian Sub-Continent is completely different to Pakistan, despite looking, on the surface, very similar. They have a greater number of girls attending school than boys, they have a greater number of women in positions of power and in professions than men. But Bangladesh only separated from Pakistan 44 years ago. And in that time they have had some upheaval and some heartbreak, but they have come out the other side, stronger, more resilient, more fair and balanced as a country.

I live in a Muslim country – there are lots of ‘guest’ workers from other Muslim countries working here, but one thing you won’t find are Pakistanis – the government won’t give them visas. They cause trouble, they foment dissent. So, we have very nice Bangla and Indian muslims. They are very nice people.

The same for Oman, right next to Saudi Arabia. They are Muslims, they have been so for the same amount of time, but they aren’t Arabs and they don’t have the same customs or attitudes. Omanis are very nice people, in the main. They are moderate in their politics and in their religion.

If you have an issue with Arabs, you go for it – I will back you to the hilt. In my long an varied experience in dealing with Arabs I have found them to be most unpleasant, with unpleasant habits and unpleasant attitudes towards anyone that isn’t an Arab male. They have this mythical ‘code of the desert’ that they think they live by, but in reality they are just rich thugs with thousand-year-old attitudes. Given a more egalitarian world, the US would have ignored all their billions of dollars of oil and kicked their ass years ago, but instead they went down on their knees and fellated them.

Even among Arab countries, Saudi is an outlier of repression and bigotry. There are 450M Arabs in the world, but most of them don’t live under the repressive misogyny that exists in SA.

If you continue to use them as your yardstick, you are going to bust a blood vessel. Try looking at somewhere like Jordan, Oman, Malaysia, Brunei, for your reference. And of course they aren’t perfect, but then neither is the US, Germany, France, the UK, Australia. But they are on their way to building a better Muslim state. One that works well with their neighbours, one that benefits all of their society and one that is growing in the world community.

Pick the outlier if you must, but you will always be frustrated by their outlandish behaviour.

Not only agree, but support.

I have been to SA a number of times over the last 40 years and it has always struck me what a thoroughly horrible place it is.

My wife and I just recently had the opportunity to work at the King Abdullah University of Science and Technology and while it was a very attractive package, we turned it down. I have worked in Jeddah before (KAUST is just north of Jeddah) and found it oppressive. But, the Muslim country we have been in for the last 5 years is just great. It might not pay the same, but the location, the weather, the people, the social life, are worlds apart from Saudi.

Never been to an Arab country where I have felt comfortable – except maybe Lebanon in the early 70s. But they fucked that up.

I live in Brunei. You might want to stop reading whatever hyperbolic sources you are using and speak to some Bruneians.

The announcement of the changes in the CPC (Shariah crime statutes) occurred in mid 2012. As yet, the only charges under the new shariah laws have been… none.

The death penalty you hold up as proof of the barbarism of Bruneian’s has never been used, despite being on the statutes since the 1950s. It’s still a potential punishment in the UK and an often-used one in the US, but you are focused on a tiny little country with a very low crime rate, with a very happy population, with a very moderate form of Islam and they somehow scare you. I wonder why that is?

I have lived here many years and one thing I can say is that Brunei likes making laws, but is not so good at policing or prosecuting them.

It is a country without a representative government, which is more of an issue. It is a country without significant industry, which is another issue. It is a country that is much more influenced by its Malay culture than anything else.

As I write this my wife is about to leave, unchaperoned, to go swimming, in a normal bathing costume for a fit fifty-something. She is wearing a sun dress, above the knee and off the shoulder. She will engage with men and women, she will shake their hand, touch their elbow, laugh and share a joke with them. Her Muslim friends will laugh at their husbands and berate them for what wives the world over berate their husbands for. They will drive themselves to their place of work, where they are heads of government departments, lawyers, policewomen, customs officers, postal workers, nurses, doctors, dentists, vets, teachers, waitresses, shopkeepers, maids, nannies, businesswomen, grandmothers and home-makers.

Yes there are still anachronisms, such as a young woman needing her father to co-sign on a car loan or mortgage, but so would a young man under 25, unless he was married. You can’t access birth control unless you are married -but you couldn’t in Ireland until very recently. It’s not right, to a western view, but it fits with Malay ways of doing things.

Like many countries, there are good and bad things, but the bad things aren’t actually the things to do with Islam, it is the slowness of bureaucracy, it is the lack of jobs, it is the poor reading habits, it is the obsessive consumerism and lack of savings.

Those need addressing. Islam is a backdrop to society here, it isn’t the ‘big thing’

You might want to read the Cairo Declaration, seeing as how you think you know so much about it: http://www1.umn.edu/humanrts/instree/cairodeclaration.html

If you read her comments with blinkers on, then sure.

But if you know a little about the background behind why the OIC felt they needed to create their own version of the UN DHR, then maybe you would look at it in a different way.

The Declaration of Human Rights was entirely the creation of the West, there was no input sought by the UN by Muslims and the output was put as a fait accompli and all the nations of the UN were expected to just ratify it.

But there are some significant areas where the DHR fails the needs of Muslims, the Cairo Declaration sought to cover those, while keeping to the spirit of the DHR.

It shouldn’t be seen as something to undermine the DHR, but as an addendum that seeks to encompass the design of what was created by the West and incorporates those ideas within the broader remit of Shariah.

If you only think your way is the right way, of course you will see the CD as a slight to the UN. But it could have been avoided, had the UN sought input from those countries.

The UN itself was new. The OIC had many years to look at the UDHR and find it didn’t fit Islam as well as it fitted the West.

This wasn’t some knee-jerk reaction.

Hendrik, if you mean Saudi Arabia’s approach to law “taking foothold in the West”, then I don’t think you have much to worry about. If you mean Islam, then remember that this is a problem in Saudi Arabia, and not countries like Morocco, Indonesia (largest Muslim majority in the world), or in Muslim communities in the West.

He should correct it with ”every second Middle Eastern man has had sex with a boy”.

I’m with you all the way, but I question the term “west.” I’ll assume you reside in the EU. The Swedish foreign minister, Margot Wallström, has been abandoned to hung out to dry not only by her own government but also by the EU government. I’m starting to think that more and more that the EU should be referred to as ” EU centre” and not as the “west” The EU constant appeasements to the Arab Muslim states block is very worrisome.

Too late Hendrik. It is here.
Now what to do about it.

Too late. It’s a disaster.

“In 2007, Malaysia made amendments to its Section 375 of its Penal Code, making forced sexual intercourse on a woman by her spouse a crime and in 2011, the first case prosecuted under the new law which saw the conviction of a man and his imprisonment for five years.”

Malaysia is a Muslim-majority country with Shariah law provisions.

So women only count as half a person. =/

Maybe you should read the Qur’an before you go telling people what it says. Any accusation of adultery has to be backed up by 4 witnesses, regardless of the gender of the person you are accusing, and regardless of your gender as the accuser. That rule exists to prevent people from being mistakenly identified. You do realize that the human brain is really, really bad about filling in it’s own memory with information that was not originally part of the memory, right? It’s basically saying that you can have someone convicted for adultery based on circumstantial evidence. Eye witness accounts are some of the shoddiest evidences you can present in court. Just look at the Salem Witch Trials, we have official court documents that claim these women called down lining bolts into the court house, all backed up by a room full of witnesses.

If you have physical evidence, you know, real evidence, you don’t need witnesses. These rules are there to discourage FALSE witness. Surat an-Nur, not only does it say you need 4 witnesses to make an accusation, but it also deals out punishment for false accusations. If Woman X accuses Man Y, and he denies her accusation, but is later found to have raped her, not only is he punished for the rape and adultery, but he’s also punished for accusing her of bearing false witness, which is also tantamount to accusing a free woman of adultery, if the implication of her denial is that she did it willingly.

It’s actually really fair and well thought out, especially for being compiled in the 600’s. In contrast to Christian Biblical law, or Jewish Halakha, it’s actually very progressive.

She is put to death, and the reason is so pathetic people won’t want to believe it, they consider it adultery because in their minds she didn’t fight hard enough so therefore she did it on purpose. The only brave souls in Egypt are the women, the men are cowards, they oppress women because they fear them, if they treated them as equals there would be no fear, unfortunately that won’t happen in my life time.

Yes, ask all the girls in Rotherham. And Oxford.

You do realize that the majority of rapes in the UK are still committed by non-immigrant men, right?

“Every city and town”? Well that’s not true. I live in a market town that has no Muslim immigrants (though I’d happily welcome any because I know the actions of the few don’t represent an entire community).

The false correlation has been proven false time and again. Just google it, plenty of analysis in the media. (And don’t worry, just because it’s not covered by far right media, doesn’t mean it’s not true.)

There is but the owners are not immigrants (or Muslims).

You do realize that the majority of rapes in the UK are still committed by non-immigrant men, right?

No, I don’t and if that were true, “non-immigrant men” (which I take to mean white British) are still the majority of the population. The police and authorities have been ignoring the huge problem of Muslim rape-gangs for decades, so that means an unknown number of rapists have never entered the statistics. One thing is certain: Muslims and other non-whites are hugely over-represented in violent crime of all kinds, including rape.

But again, that’s objective reality. Not something that need concern decent, pro-feminist progressive folk such as yourself.

By that logic, the authorities would have missed lots of non-immigrant rapes too due to their ignorance…

It’s not “ignorance”: it’s an active effort to ignore crime by non-whites for fear of seeming racist:

Karrar was brazen in his exploitation of Girl D and acted in the belief that the authorities would never challenge him – something that for years proved to be true. Isolated, terrified and dependant on the drugs she was being fed, she summoned up the courage to report Karrar to the police twice; once in May 2005 and again in 2007. Nothing happened. Social workers also knew and did not act. One told the court it was the “general consensus” of the staff in her care home that she was being groomed.

http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2013/may/14/oxford-gang-groomed-victims-hell

organized sexual abuse by politicians and celebrities (pre-dominantly, if not all, non-immigrants). Who don’t know how much they got away with. Maybe in time it will be uncovered.

The sex-ring was homosexual. Gays are another saintly minority who outperform the majority in certain forms of behaviour. Of course, Jimmy Savile was not Muslim or homosexual. Sex criminals are found in all groups, but the important point is that some groups supply far more of them than others.

Exactly, we don’t know how much raping and abusing the non-immigrants
might have been responsible for because it was all hushed up. It could
be millions of cases.

Where is the evidence that huge numbers of rapes by heterosexual white males have been “covered up”? Nowhere. In proportion, that group commits far fewer rapes than Muslims or blacks, even though some Muslims and blacks never rape at all and some white men do. But don’t let statistics, logic or objective reality trouble you. There’s a better world to build for women by welcoming mass immigration by Muslims.

Around 20% of rape and murder in the UK is attributed (i.e. arrest or
conviction) to immigrants.

A huge over-representation. But do you mean by “immigrant” someone born overseas to non-British parents?

The other 80% is non-immigrants…

Muslims and blacks are not “non-immigrants”, whether or not they were born in the UK.

That’s out of all immigrants, and since not all immigrants are Muslim the proportion attributable to Muslim immigrants would be lower still.

As I keep pointing out: even on the present statistics they are hugely over-represented in violent and acquisitive crime of all kinds. The present statistics do not reflect the full reality, because the authorities have been ignoring what they are getting up to in places like Rotherham, Rochdale and Oxford. London, Manchester and Sheffield are bigger cities where their out-reach to the under-age kaffir female community has been on an even bigger scale.

“Muslims and blacks are not “non-immigrants”, whether or not they were born in the UK.”

Wrong. Plain and simply wrong. So by your logic a person with long held British ancestry, born in the UK and who chooses Islam as their religion, is an immigrant??????

I didn’t say “Muslim and blacks are immigrants whether or not they are born in the UK”, I said they are “not non-immigrants”, i.e. their status does not equal that of the native white British. I didn’t cover every possible contingency when I said “Muslims”, but I meant “non-white Muslims”, who form the vast majority, rather than “Muslims-of-every-colour”.

Yes it is alarming that 80% are non-immigrant criminals. I wonder how much bigger that figure could be too if the authorities did a better job.

You don’t need to “wonder”: we already know that , for decades, “non-immigrant” Muslims were committing serious crimes and being allowed to get away with it:

The court heard the victims were tied up, burnt, suffocated, beaten and urinated upon, and would return to Oxford bleeding, injured and carrying sexually-transmitted infections. […] Numerous opportunities to catch members of the gang are believed to have been missed. Thames Valley Police chief constable Sara Thornton has previously apologised for the delay in securing convictions against the seven men. Ms Thornton admitted a joint investigation did not start until 2011, despite complaints from victims.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-oxfordshire-23079649

I have constantly quoted facts to you about the hugely disproportionate involvement of non-white Muslims in sex crime. All you do is response is blow smoke. If you have evidence that ordinary white heterosexual British males are committing serious crimes and being allowed to get away with, please produce it. If you don’t, admit that you have no case.

** That’s prejudicial at best, racist at worst. **

Why has it taken you so long to say “racist”? You should have done that as soon as you started to lose the argument.

80% of rapes and murders in the UK are attributed to non-immigrants.

And of that “80%”, a vastly disproportionate number are committed by non-whites, especially Muslims.

Celebrities and people in powerful positions in the 70s and 80s were getting away with sex crimes. Or have you not been following the news lately? Or perhaps you only see the news you want to see.

Sigh. I’ve already mentioned Jimmy Savile and said that all groups commit crime. It’s a question of the tendency. The girls in Rotherham, Rochdale, Oxford etc, etc would not have been abused if it were not for mass immigration by Muslims. The white British commit fewer sex crimes in proportion to their share of the population. Non-white Muslims commit far more. Again, I’m repeating a point that has not sunk in. I don’t think it will ever.

Those 20% of crimes attributed to immigrants are not worse crimes, they deserve no special focus over the other 80%, unless there is an anti-immigrant agenda.

If much less than 20% of the population are committing 20% of crime, they do deserve “special focus” because the part of the population is obviously far more prone to commit crime. You can’t even follow the logic of your own statements. I can’t decide whether you’re 15 or a satirist taking the p*ss of the left. But perhaps you’re both.

Because you only just made an actual racist statement. Up to now your comments were borderline.

“Racism” is the progressive equivalent of blasphemy: it is a term used to police thought and safeguard power. The fact that you use it as though it’s a serious term is proof that you are not thinking straight on this topic. It’s often used by both sides in a progressive argument, because progressives are not interested in logic and objective facts. It has at least three distinct meanings. I am definitely racist in the sense that I think genetics is responsible for the low average IQ of blacks and Pakistanis and high average IQ of the Chinese. I also think genetics explains lots of other ways in which those groups differ.

“And of that “80%”, a vastly disproportionate number are committed by non-whites, especially Muslims.” No. The MoJ data is not classified by religion so you have no validation for this.

I have the prison population to “validate” that. I have the fact that gays are fleeing Muslim areas in London because of the violence and abuse they suffer. I have the thousands of under-aged girls raped and prostituted by a “tiny minority” of Muslim males in cities and towns right across the western world.

Please learn to read. Where do you get population from?

I got it from looking at reality. If 20% of crimes are committed by “migrants”, who form far less than 20% of the population, they are committing crimes at disproportionate rate.

Crimes, not population.

The fact that you think the two have no relation is an indication of how well you understand the topic.

Let me help you: the 20% of the same types of crimes deserve no more focus than the other 80%. Each crime, regardless of ethnicity, religion, gender or age is an injustice, no more no less.

Another religious statement: all sin is sin and every sin, no matter how slight, is abominable in the sight of the Lord.

The word “rapist” makes people think of men. Why? Women commit rape too. Therefore rape by women is just as important as rape by men. The same logic. I don’t accept it and neither do progressives like you. If one group is committing more of a particular crime than another group, it is ludicrous to say that equal attention should be paid to both groups. Muslims and blacks commit all kinds of crimes at much higher rates than the white British. Therefore their presence in the UK increases crime.

No. Racism is racism. Period.

Sin is sin! It merits eternal Hell-fire.

There is no defence you provide that justifies racist comments.

Define racism. Is it racist to say that man evolved from apes, i.e. the genetic changes account for the difference between human beings and apes? If it isn’t, why is it racist to say low average black IQ is largely genetic? It’s a scientific question about objective reality. Invoking morality in discussion of facts is characteristic of religious believers and of those (often the same) whose world-view can’t stand on its own merits.

“all sin is sin and every sin, no matter how slight, is abominable in the sight of the Lord.” Incredible. So you are a religious racist?

No, I’m just a “racist”. I am pointing out how similar your psychology is to that of a religious believer. Judaism mutated into Christianity mutated into Marxism mutated into…

Law and justice is applied equally, no matter who commits the crime – justice is blind. Otherwise it would not be fair and equal. You appear not to grasp this basic concept of the justice system. All rapes are equal crimes. All murders are equal crimes.

No system of justice has ever accepted that. There can be aggravating circumstances, like sadism or murder of a police officer. And, of course, a murder committed with blasphemy in the heart is far worse than a decent, salt-of-the-earth murder. In other words, a hate-murder is worse than an ordinary murder and merits extra time. According to progressives.

Possibly your mother tongue isn’t English. If it is, you’re not intellectually equipped for this argument. Your responses are stereotyped and robotic, so either you’re taking the p*ss of the left or you’re a member of the autistic-spectrum community, which explains why you can’t grasp irony or humour. You may well be an atheist and Dawkins fan too. I’m an atheist myself, but I don’t like to call myself one because it means I get associated with people like Dawkins.

Now, I know you’ll say “ad hom”, but ad hom is perfectly ok when it used as commentary, not as argument. I do not say you are wrong simply because you’re autistic (or American or 15), I say you can’t understand my arguments because you’re autistic (or whatever).

Oh dear, you’ve resorted to religious arguments based on your personal beliefs. Basically you’ve given up on factual debate. You’re now sounding like a religious fanatical.

I am not religious and I don’t have any religious beliefs. Your progressive ideology is crypto-religious and uses morality to direct thought rather than logic based on facts.

“If it isn’t, why is it racist to say low average black IQ is largely genetic?”

It’s racist because a person’s intelligence is not encoded in their genes. Anyone who believes intelligence is genetic is misinformed, to say the least.

If intelligence isn’t “genetic”, why are jellyfish less intelligent than whales? Of course intelligence is genetic: genes set the ceiling for a particular individual of a particular species. The average black ceiling is lower than the average white ceiling, which is lower than the average Chinese ceiling. I know your religion preaches otherwise, but your religion is based on lies and deceit. Like most religions it’s designed to benefit the priests, not the laity.

“a murder committed with blasphemy in the heart is far worse than a decent, salt-of-the-earth murder. In other words, a hate-murder is worse than an ordinary murder and merits extra time.”

Now you’re just expressing your own religious bias and perception of how you would like law and order to be implemented,

No, I was joking about your religion. Your inability (genuine or feigned) to spot this proves that you’re not worth arguing with. Crimes committed for reasons of “hate” earn extra time. That’s a fact about the modern justice system. Did you not know this?

Thankfully, you’re not a law maker and in reality justice is secular, fair and equal and focused on crimes, not the offender’s ethnicity or immigration status.

A stereotyped and robotic response. The “secular” is telling. No, justice has never been “secular”, i.e. objective. In the past it was Christian, nowadays it’s Marxist.

Only evidence and facts about the offence matter.

There have been abundant evidence and “facts” that Muslim males are raping 1,000s of under-aged white girls throughout the UK. This evidence was ignored by your religion because it didn’t fit your religion’s dogmas (non-whites are oppressed, whites are racists, etc). So please don’t tell me that “evidence and facts about the offence matter”.

80% of murders and rapes are committed by *non-immigrants*. (2013 Ministry of Justice data.)

I’ll repeat my argument and you’ll again fail to understand it. If 20% of offences are being committed by “migrants”, migrants are obviously far more prone to commit crime. Therefore more migrants will mean more and worse crime. This is why I oppose mass immigration, especially mass immigration by Muslims and blacks. Your religion supports mass immigration, because your religion isn’t based on logic or reality: it’s based on fantasies and lies.

You’ve just made a complete fool of yourself. 🙂

Oh dear. What a shame for me. But how funny. Here’s the dedicated Marxist and anti-racist Steve Rose also stating that intelligence is affected by the genes:

So far as the first goes, if Watson had confined himself to saying (as
he now does in his article) that there are likely to be genes which,
expressed during development, contribute to differences in individual intellectual performance, then there would be no scientific dissent…

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2007/oct/21/watsonsbadscience

So according to a Marxist biologist there’s “no scientific dissent” that intelligence is affected by genetic differences, even though Rose does not (of course) accept that these genetic differences might relate to race.

Again, I’ve ignored your ad hominems. What little credibility you had, very little, disappeared with each attack.

Ok. You’ve announced victory, so obviously you’ve won. Thank you for providing me with another interesting encounter with a freethinking member of the progressive community.

There has been a police report showing that Muslim police unfortunately have a far higher rate of corruption raps.
It’s cultural as well as religious – these are kin-based honour-shame communities where it is taken for granted that if you have a public position, you will and must use it to help relatives, protected the honour of family and community etc…

“Every city and town”? Well that’s not true. I live in a market town that has no Muslim immigrant.

Surprise, surprise. You’ve not read what I said:

every city and town in Britain that has been enriched by Muslim immigration.

Note defining relative clause.

I live in a market town that has no Muslim immigrant.

Then it won’t have a vibrant rape-community, unless it has some other form of enrichment from overseas.

The “fun” part is that terminology “culture enriching” was used by the Nazi during 30:th and 40:th about the Jews.

I usually make a “fun” experiment and change every “Islam” with “Jewism” and every “Muslim” with “Jew” and it usually sound very end 1930:th and beginning 1940:th. Do you have an explanation of that?

Rape gangs that single out white children? That’s a muslim thing, no one elses. And more importantly, it’s an imported Muslim thing so we have every right to be angry and especially so as I’m not convictions for those in authority.

This is not happening in one place, but across the UK. For over 20 years and nothing was done about it.

So don’t insult us by saying ‘majority of rapes in UK are committed by non-immigrant men’ – why don’t you talk about proportions? If the UK is majority non-migrant men then the answer is obvious. What is more interesting are proportions i.e. ratios to crimes being committed and population.

But you won’t want to dwell on that.

Oh and F ck you on your name – if thats your ideology then i want you to die a horrible and painful death.

Yes, but unfortunately that would only prove a uniform diffusion of rape cases across population if immigrants were 20% of the UK population. As we know, Muslims are only about 4% (of course we would need a breakdown of other immigrant groups and charges to show just how disproportionate that is..)

Also (and I want to leave murder out of this), one has to take account of different modus operandi. There may, historically, have been circles of child abusers in the Brfitish establishment (or non-establishment!), but there is really now no evidence among whites and other categories of the specific group modus operandi of the largely Muslim (not exclusively Pakistani) grooming gangs in so many British towns recently. Your average British white child groomer is a loner, who tries to conceal his activities from family and friends, and at most links up with others on the Net for exchange of tips and porn. Then there are the commercial vice guys (no doubt some British, as well as other nationalities) who see the activity primarily as lucrative business, and tend to steer clear of the underage (however much they exploit and abuse the of-AGE, e.g. trafficked East European women). The “Asian” (primarily Muslim) gangs are very different…The crime is mainly communal (depending on family and communal contact), and although the girls are used for income through prostitution, in the first instance it is about getting sex and kicks for the group concerned, relatively free. It relies heavily on the fact that for honour and fear reasons, families and contacts in the community who are aware of the problem will not object or go to the police (the same is true of honour violence within the community). – many after all think that Western girls (or sometimes Sikh girls, also targeted) are dirty and worthless and deserve all they get. The activity is both gratifying and punitive – the impurity of infidel girls…Some of the perps have shown a communal religious self-righteousness…Just as in France police report that when they go to a Muslim’s family to investigate a sexual abuse allegation, the person’s parents simply cannot understand why the behaviour is a matter of concern or a crime.

So – upshot is – it’s not that non-Muslims (whites, and others) do not commit sexual crimes, but these do not have the same character, and worrying roots in communal attitudes. The same goes for the difference between honour killing (usually collective, planned killing to remove family “shame”), which is surpassingly rare in the white community for cultural reasons, and “ordinary” DV – spousal violence/killing often under influence of alcohol and unlikely to be planned by family or endorsed by neighbours.

And then there is one of the worst things about Rotherham etc…which was the refusal of the social and security services to take it seriously partly because of fears of charges of “racism” – not something that the police these days fear (whatever their failures) in dealing with white pedophiles.

Except, correlation is not causation, or do you have evidence to support your assertion?

As opposed to a very left bias opinion? It’s all opinion at the end of the day. Who knows how many countless, unreported children have been molested by Catholic priests…

It is all relative. Even your absolute is relative to my relative view. Your views are based on your moral beliefs and values which are personal to you. Morals are not universal, however much you may wish them to be.

But they are atrocities in your culture so it will be relative to your view of the world. If you were the perpetrator you would not see it that way. The pedophile, the rapist, the FGM performers will see your view as an objection to their rights because in their minds what they do is not objectionable, they believe they are doing what is acceptable in their culture. You’re wrong, it’s not an Islamic thing. It’s people that do these things, religion is just an excuse for the actions of people. These things have been going on in cultures forever. You can argue some cultures have evolved to be more humanitarian than others, that makes more sense.

They are subjective to me. But that’s okay, our morals can differ. I can see it from both sides.

Challenge: where did I make an excuse for them? Re-read, carefully this time, what I wrote.

(Btw, no need for ad hominem attacks.)

Good to know.

Just to expose a dangerous misconception, economic downturns do not create divisions, economic upturns disguise them. Three hundred years of division in Northern Ireland shows that. But let us not take that, or any of the other decades, even centuries old, racial and religious conflict around the world, as a warning. No, let us take the divisions of Northern Ireland and multiply them by a thousand by allowing mass, unsanctioned Islamic settlement in the center of Europe.

But…but..oh, look. There’s a squirrel.

But these cretins are not lopping off heads, turning children into suicide bombers, destroying historical artifacts, making women second class citizens etc. etc. The list of atrocities by Islamic extremists grows longer and longer every day. And all you can do is divert blame.

Rotherham was allowed to happen because the orchestrators of those terrible crimes had a client base which was not exclusively (or even in the majority) limited to Asian, Muslim men.

Let’s also not forget that the BBC is currently in hot water for its white, upper-class, rich “talent” abusing children and the white, upper-class, rich “directors” of the BBC helped cover it up.

Let’s also not forget that Parliament has been rocked in recent years by uncovered sex crimes against children (including, at least, one murder of a child) all perpetrated by white, upper-class, rich MPs, which more white, upper-class, rich cabinet members helped cover up.

So… let’s not “minimise the abuse”.

Sure, but we just saw the whole Muslim world (65 countries) embrace the right to do so with impunity. I would recommend that you read the article above. So how the hell is this not a muslim issue?

Sure it’s a Muslim issue. If we also accept that it’s a Christian issue. When someone (as above) tries to paint it as a Muslim-only issue, an issue that exists exclusively within the Muslim community, then there’s a problem.

If anything it’s a “developing country” issue. One might even argue it’s even a “developed country” issue, depending on what statistics you side with.

Show me which Muslim-majority countries promote rape & specify what you regard as Muslim degradation of women.

I did read the damn article above. The OIC is, yes, a representative of Islamic countries, yes, and there are 56 of them, yes, good good.

I seem to recall asking you which of those countries *PROMOTE* rape (even promote rape as an Islamic principle – as you imply), which is what you said, rather than just… well, turn a blind eye to it, basically. You haven’t provided an answer. Try, because apparently the answer is glaringly obvious to you so you shouldn’t mind sharing.

Floggings and executions are abhorrent, yes, but they are far from exclusively doled out to women… nor is capital/corporal punishment exclusive to SOME of the Islamic countries the OIC represents.

To the initial few paragraphs: correct. So what is your understanding of Sharia law? what does that mean to you? sanctioned rape? promotion of rape?

(Islam expressly forbids rape, by the way, and the punishment for it is death.)

For the inaccuracies posted above your comment, proving RAPE in Islamic countries is not done by providing four witnesses (not only would it be illegal to witness it and do nothing, but it’s also improbable a rapist would allow four non-complicit male witnesses – let’s face it)… this is how one proves ADULTERY.

Rape is proven either through full admission from the accused, or – as in most other countries – through physical forensic evidence of resistance.

The terms of Sharia Law is not up for debate in Islam. It is, sadly, frequently implemented and then abused as we see today in Iraq, Syria, and so on, by those who hold the power of fear and a lack of moral principles.

To say this behaviour is mainstream, not radical, belies the very nature of the MENA arena over the past 100 years. The civil wars, the tribal wars, the revolutions, and so on, fought over the very nature of Islam and its laws and what version to implement.

Your broad strokes just aren’t reality. Your opinion is measured by what is highly visible in Western media and politics, not by the actual situation on the ground.

They do it Daisytoo because they are parasites. They live in a culture that allows them freedom but they are afflicted with a suicide gene that makes them embrace the very things that will ultimately destroy them. Britain along with many European countries will go the same way as Mosul in Iraq and the first people to pay for it will be the libs who urged it upon themselves.

How does that in any way hold any relevance to what I said?

Aside from invoking the tired old “left/right” brouhaha (I’m a centrist, by the way, and a sensible one at that) and implying that I – or people who agree with me – hold pro-Muslim and anti-Christian bias (I’m agnostic, by the way, all religion is backwards in my view), nothing you said addresses the issue of you quite openly suggesting that only Muslim men in Sweden rape. Despite, even, evidence to the contrary [that someone else posted].

Alright, quite openly suggesting that Muslim men in Sweden are responsible for the vast majority of rapes.

I hope that better appeals to your sensibilities. Either way one can phrase it, you’re wrong.

Confirmation bias. How about giving us objective, peer-reviewed statistics?

Or the Stasi will come, presumably.

I completely agree that it is not any one group issue, we need to focus on how to eradicate this and nothing else. Other groups also do it is not the issue, they all do it! when caught they hide under excuses, WRONG IS WRONG UNDER ANY SITUATION!

What is the matter with you, people?! So basically, only muslim men rape… that’s your explanation? Really?! Really???!

Bring me data, not false correlations that don’t mean sqwat.

Islam doesn’t permit or allow rape, but I think you already know that, right?
And Saudis are douche bags, I mean we all know that. I’m from Morocco, and those guys are bad news, they come from a culture (and I say culture not religion – very big diffference, a culture is norms, values, history, traditions…) that reduce woman to three basic roles, daughter, wife, mother. They’re chauvinistic pigs but Islam is not responsible, them being ass holes is.

So my point is that we, as long as we have good mothers (parents) that teach us to be decent human being and a society that neither make us feel like we are the oustiders looking in nor permit male to feel superior over women, we turn out to be decent. Look at me. I’m a feminist and a muslim and I live in a muslim country.

Don’t you see what’s going on? Doesn’t that remind you of something? The whole us against them routine. We’ve been there, we’ve done that… and look where that led us… u really want for history to repeat itself again.

The more you discriminate, the more they ll feel like they have to cling on to what they think is their sole identity. The more you point fingers at them, the more they’ll realize that it’s really you against them.

There is a difference between “… you, people” and “you people”.

As are far left and far right deflections.

All politics is deflection and propaganda. Every comment here is propaganda and deflection. You will view my comments as deflection and liberal propaganda.

I’m assuming they must do some sort of work when they’re not drinking tea, chewing khat or skipping about the streets on their way to drinking tea and chewing khat.
But they certainly are not the same beasts of burden as Muslim women.

Maybe we can introduce miniskirts, ladies’ nights at the local discos, labiaplasty, and all types of things that will make them free…even the right to misspell first names…

Namaste? Good grief but could be possibly be more predictable?

i dont make up facts. You’re using your interpretation of a reality that is absolutely uncorrect and you try to make it a fact. That’s intellectualy dishonest.

“women who looked like they were on Thorazine”, I mean come on.

I don’t make up facts. There is the religion and there is the application. There is good and bad people. There is cultures that condemn oppressions over minority and there is culturen that enables them even among the same religious current..

And FYI, the moroccan sultan Mohamed V has been considered a just among the nations for his effort to save his hebraic community from the hand of the collaborators, and the regime of Vichy and ultimatly Hitler.

Bitch please, get your facts straight before ever try to argue. And interpretation of reality is no fact.

Of course I do. We all do, one way or another. We all are humans. And humans are animals with conscience. But animals nonetheless. The point here is that we have to keep our dark passenger in check.

And “Bitch please” is humerous. Don’t take everything so seriously.

I say to my brother “Bitch please” all the time. We like to act like sassy gay guys, it’s funny, it makes us laugh. That does not mean that we’re not feminist or gay friendly. That just means that we like to laugh about silly stuff and not give it a derogative meaning.

But you can call me a prick or a douche lord, if that makes u feel better.

And i’m advocate to absolute free speech. Even caricatures 🙂

I similarly greet my brother with the phrase “motherfucker” or “mofo”…I am not making any suggestions about him or my mother. He greets me with “puta” but I can say with 100% certainty that I’m not a prostitute. You see how language can work, Metis? Just as I assume your name is supposed to refer to some goddess rather than “the first person to pass out or fall asleep in a group gathering.”

True. But often this term is used to belittle women. It’s hard to know when it’s not being used that way; so I think, in the context of this discussion, it would have been preferable not to use it.

I’d say so. But I’m an old lady.

Yes, I think that’s quite possible.

If for you argumentation is about going around, quoting the first biais site on google, well let me please enlight you.

This is the original text of the hadith :
أَنَّ رَسُولَ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم بَعَثَ يَوْمَ حُنَيْنٍ بَعْثًا إِلَى أَوْطَاسٍ فَلَقُوا عَدُوَّهُمْ فَقَاتَلُوهُمْ فَظَهَرُوا عَلَيْهِمْ وَأَصَابُوا لَهُمْ سَبَايَا فَكَأَنَّ أُنَاسًا مِنْ أَصْحَابِ رَسُولِ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم تَحَرَّجُوا مِنْ غِشْيَانِهِنَّ مِنْ أَجْلِ أَزْوَاجِهِنَّ مِنَ الْمُشْرِكِينَ
as we can see from this :
1-the prophet was not aware of what happen as he was not there
2-the Arabic words(the original) does NOT SAY in the presence of their husbands any ware AT ALL INFACT it says quite the opposite as for (تَحَرَّجُوا ) means the became afraid of having sexual intercourse (مِنْ أَجْلِ أَزْوَاجِهِنَّ مِنَ الْمُشْرِكِينَ) because of there polytheist husbands (mushrikin) and NOT at there presence
3-here is a more authentic hadith sense it’s from Saheeh muslim:

So yeah, once again, get your fact straight. And unless you have concrete historical references from objective historians. Don’t say the prophet is a rapist. There is always a probability that you might be wrong. And insulting people faith is never cool.

You might not know that, but Hadith is what we call today “reported facts”. Those reported facts are man made and sometimes tempered with to promote an idealogy or another.

Therefor, Hadiths are not always reliable. The only reliable (relevant to Islam) words there are, are the words written in the Coran.

Find me a sourate explaining that men can abduct and rape victims and I’ll bow down.

Meanwhile, let’s not be cute and pretend that kind of stuff hadn’t happened in Occident at that time. So has so many terrible things. Slavery is an awful thing and yet, it remained untouched until the first half of the 18th century. And that created a civil war. Yet, you don’t see me saying that all white men are evil.

So please, start relativising, be open to the fact that every religion, every culture, every tradition has good and bad elements. Nothing is intrasicly evil, nothing is indubitably good. Everything is relative.

Every argumentation is on reference to something else, precedent are the basis of law therefor are always relevant especially when you discuss cultural aspect of a civilization.

I’m the citizen of an islamic theocracy and yet it is written in my constitution that men and women are equal. How is that degrading to women?!

AGAIN : STOP GENERALIZING FOR GOD SAKE!

Well at least you let the space for discussion, for exchange of ideas, of conceptions (or misconceptions) but there is a debate… and cuddo to you for that. But I’m getting a little tired of this… and i have to go back to writing on my project.

So good luck to you. And try to avoid putting eveybody on the same boat next time 🙂 Cheers.

Daisytoo you are a genius among donkeys.

Ah, the good old “But those other guys did it too” excuse, it never gets old does it?

Here is some linear logic. Your main argument (for the last while at least) was that historical islamic cultural attitudes were bad, and that makes modern islam equally bad across the board. Yet western cultures were (roughly, because its hard to compare atrocities) equally amoral and now they are not as bad. Therefore contemporary Islam is more bad. That is circular, because it asserts islam is bad now, as evidence for the point islam is bad now, yet all you did was talk about the past.

And for the record, I’m an atheist, and more importantly an anti-theist, so I actively disapprove of all organised faith. Before that, however, I’m a decent human being who can’t stand constant ad hominem attacks from people trying to debate complex issues over the internet. Especially when they claim to be masters of logic and reason.

Daisytoo, I salute you.. Nothing like a remorseless presentation of the true nature of Islam from the mouth of its daddy and his hucksters to get a Muslim to show his true nature.

He actually said “bitch please” which is more of a humorus phrase. I accept you’re probably not privvy to how other people speak, but it doesn’t make your ignorance the standard for all others.

You really shouldn’t indulge this bigot by engaging them in debate. You won’t change anything they believe, they will just drag you down to their level.

You are whitewashing Mohammed, Police Be Upon Him.

Here’s the deal. We should not care one single DAMN what is in the Koran or what Mohamed said. Islam is evil and it needs to be eliminated from the earth.

Did you care about any of this before 9/11? why did the eternal rapeyness of islam suddenly become the Gospel Truthiness on that day in history, much like Dec 7th 1941 exposed the insectile untrustworthiness of the Japanese gestalt or August 4th 1914 heralded the vicious amoral sadism of the German psyche? like what the frigging hell

Reminds me of the times in history when we married off kids for the sake of international treaties between countries. Oh and let’s not forget the metaphorical use of language in old religious texts. Scholars of religious studies have for some time accepted that religious texts are not to be taken literally in a modern context. Literal translation of any ancient text into modern text will read as very bizarre. Further worsened by revisionism and re-translating over the ages, often politically influenced re-tellings of stories.

I mean, seriously, resurrection? Classic ancient fantasy stuff. Personally I like the Harry Potter stories. And what’s with the hundred year old vampires and adolescents? That’s just wrong.

I’m not defending any religion or even atheism. I’m defending the right to offend, or rather the right to defend a perceived offensive point of view. Je suis Charlie and all that. Y’see, freedom of expression is a two way street.

You’re entitled to your view (i.e. opinion), I’m not saying your are right or wrong. I’m just saying your view is biased based on your world experience. My views are biased too, but they are biased based on my experience of many cultures, not just my own.

I don’t need to. I know your opinions are based on your “my world view”. It’s the same for everyone.

You appear to know of propaganda. But you are good at deflection.