Leading article

Britain really is ceasing to be a Christian country

28 May 2016

9:00 AM

28 May 2016

9:00 AM

A landmark in national life has just been passed. For the first time in recorded history, those declaring themselves to have no religion have exceeded the number of Christians in Britain. Some 44 per cent of us regard ourselves as Christian, 8 per cent follow another religion and 48 per cent follow none. The decline of Christianity is perhaps the biggest single change in Britain over the past century. For some time, it has been a stretch to describe Britain as a Christian country. We can more accurately be described now as a secular nation with fading Christian institutions.

There is nothing new in the decline of the church, but until recently it had been a slow decline. For many decades it was possible to argue that while Christians were eschewing organised religion, they at least still regarded themselves as having some sort of spirit-ual life which related to the teachings of Jesus. Children were asked for their Christian name; conversations ended with ‘God bless’. Such phrases are now slipping out of our vocabulary — to wear a cross as jewellery is seen as making a semi-political statement. Christians are finding out what it’s like to live as a minority.

Just 15 years ago, almost three quarters of Britons still regarded themselves as Christians. If this silent majority of private, non-churchgoing believers really did exist, it has undergone a precipitous decline. Five years ago, the number of people professing no religion was only 25 per cent.


Remarkably, the overall decline of religion in Britain has coincided with the arrival of three million migrants who tend to have more religious belief than British Christians. In particular, the visual impact of Islam, most obviously expressed in the proposal for a 9,000-capacity ‘super-mosque’ in east London that was rejected by planners last year, might give the impression that migration has brought a religious revival to Britain. Yet neither the growth of British Islam nor the huge influx of Christian immigrants from Africa and Eastern Europe has spurred a revival in public Christianity.

It is possible that the rise of Islamism has made casual believers less inclined to ally themselves with any kind of organised faith. Say ‘religious’ to many Britons and the next word that pops into their heads is ‘extremist’, or perhaps ‘bigot’ or ‘homophobe’. To the growing population of secularists, religion has become something to be treated with suspicion. Politicians who are religious find their faith used against them. Iain Duncan Smith’s Department of Work and Pensions was known by his critics as the Department of Worship and Prayer, the joke being that his reforms were inspired by a desire to save lives rather than money. In government, to be a Christian can be seen as a personal failing. The ambitious minister keeps his or her faith under wraps. It is unthinkable now that a Prime Minister would do as Mrs Thatcher did on arrival in Downing Street 37 years ago, and quote St Francis of Assisi. All Cameron has dared to say, quoting Boris Johnson, is that his faith comes and goes like the reception of Magic FM in the Chilterns.

The eclipsing of our national religion has deep implications for those who do retain faith, especially those who wish to pass it on to their children. They must now face the reality that they, no less than Muslims, Jews and Hindus, face being treated as oddballs.

As for the church itself, it is no use pretending there is a Christian majority whose non-attendance at church is just down to laziness. If church leaders wish to keep their buildings open, they will have to start from the beginning — with missionary work to recruit parishioners in a now-sceptical country.

Inevitably, the question of what is to be done about our national Christian institutions will arise. Is it appropriate that we are still invited to swear on the Bible in court? (Many new MPs routinely refuse to do this in the Commons.) Is it right that the Lords Spiritual should still have a role in the Upper House, or that church and state should have any formal connection at all? The British regard for tradition will see that such roles are preserved, but for nostalgic reasons. The aesthetics of Christianity — the architecture, the choral singing and so on — still pull in crowds, even if little of the liturgy is inwardly digested.

Christians, for their part, should not automatically associate a decline in religiosity with a rise in immorality. On the contrary, Britons are midway through an extraordinary period of social repair: a decline in teenage pregnancies, divorce and drug abuse, and a rise in civic-mindedness.

We cannot discount the possibility of a Christian revival; the Christian faith specialises in defying the odds. But it seems more likely that Britain will continue to muddle along as a post-Christian country with quaint customs that derive from its history as a deeply religious country. Some will find this sad, others as a sign of progress, but the greater majority will view it with indifference.

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Show comments
  • Father Todd Unctious

    The sad result of this is the decline in the use and the fabric of our 9,000 medieval parish churches. The Churches Conservation Trust is already looking after over 400. These are a national treasure. Perhaps the greatest collection of artistic endeavour in Europe, alongside French churches.
    Government must do more and we need to rethink how we use these magnificent buildings. Maybe putting the naves back to use as village halls, creches, youth clubs, farmers markets …..but please don’t let the developers in to create flats and barn conversions.

    • Marco

      Father Todd,

      The greatest collection of artistic endeavour in Europe alongside French churches ??? C’mon… Have you ever heard of Florence, Saint Peter Basilica (Italy) (!) ? Or Spanish and German Barocco churches ?

      Solutions for the reconversion of disused rural and suburban churches will have to be found all over Europe too. Unfortunately, our culture is not leading to greater social gatherings that’d need new buildings. Plus rural areas will continue losing population.

      A centuries old religious culture is collapsing. Or even, thousands of years of religiosity are vanishing right in front of our eyes. Such an event has never occurred in the past. Nowhere.
      It is difficult to say how societies are going to deal with it…

      • Father Todd Unctious

        I am perfectly au faix with Italy having visited over 20 times. But there are not 9,000 stunning medieval churches there. There are great churches yes, Monreale and Ravenna, Siena and Pisa, Ortygia, etc. And yes the interiors are often superior to English and Welsh churches. But as a whole, the 9,000 mainly Romanesque and gothic churches here are a unique tresure.
        Plus you are citing cathedrals….the UK has plenty of those too.
        You say such an event has not happened before, but it kind of has. The closing of thousands of Nonconformist chapels. Baptist, Methodist, Quaker etc. Often less arhitiecturally pleasing but socially important. Many have suffered the indignity of conversion to warehouses, pubs or homes.
        The establishment did not care. These were working class culture like cinemas, bingo halls, dogtracks, skittle alleys and working mens clubs so did not merit saving.

        • Tamerlane

          ‘I am perfectly au faix with Italy…’ I don’t doubt it. Rest of us are au fait but you’re ‘au faix’, I don’t know what ‘au faix’ is but it would certainly explain your postcard amateur Italian chat. Twit.

          • Father Todd Unctious

            So for once you don’t disagree with my comment. You just lamely call out a single grammatical error.
            Sums you up. A snide sniping nitwit, clearly out of his depth.

          • Tamerlane

            But you changed it though. Bet that one really stung. I know you and your faux (gerrit?) sophistication would have felt that one. That one would have really stung. I enjoyed it lots and lots and I want you to know that. Twit.

          • Father Todd Unctious

            Sums up your lack of argument, that you are chuffed to spot a spelling mistake. You are left with weak insults and the shame of knowing you lack sufficient basic knowledge to hack it with the grown ups.

          • Tamerlane

            You keep smarting there. Twit.

          • Trialia

            Is “twit” the only word you know how to use to end a comment? I don’t care what you’re commenting about, the person arguing with you is right: you really are an ignorant child.

          • Tamerlane

            Nothing like watching your soul mates take a shellaking eh? Don’t sweat it sweets, he’s used to it by now.

          • Father Todd Unctious

            You utter child. You and your colleagues at the Putin embassy have an appalling ability to sneer and snipe.

          • Father Todd Unctious

            This creep spends his life stalking my comments. So intent is he , he now uses four or five different identities.
            In just five days he has offered 75 comments. Nearly fifty of them targetted at me.
            What he is so upset by is he used to come on here and spread ridiculous lies without challenge. He hates that I exposed him and he really hates my constantly correcting his ill informed conjecture.
            Oddly, however rude he is the moderators are perfectly happy to support him. Of course that encourages me to drag him down even further.

      • Tamerlane

        I’m afraid you’re wasting your time mentioning culture to the resident Philistine you reply to.

        • Father Todd Unctious

          You hate that I am more cultured than you. I have qualifications in Church Architecture and have been a member of the Churches Conservation Trust for over a decade. So quite the philistine, yes.

          • Tamerlane

            You’re a tedious bore who wouldn’t know how to appreciate culture if it bit you in the b@lls. Twit.

          • Father Todd Unctious

            You would I suppose. The tongue tied King of the insult.

          • Tamerlane

            I do. Twit.

          • Father Todd Unctious

            But you do have difficulty with English being your second lanuage, Russian lover.

          • Yorkieeye

            You are calling someone else a bore!

          • Tamerlane

            Christ alive little boy, get over yourself.

    • Dan Swanmore

      … and provide seats for those selling doves and tables for money-changers?

      • arkenaten

        Laugh of the day! Brilliant.

    • Richard

      It is true that while the Devil has the best music, God has the best real-estate

      • Landphil

        And the Irish have potatoes and the Arabs have oil – they should get together.

    • Tim Wobble

      9,000 erm I’m under the impression that England has over 22 and a half thousand predominantly mediaeval churches …….about half the number that there were originally

      • Father Todd Unctious

        Sadly no. Medieval England and Wales was divided into about 9,000 parishes each with its own church. Most of the others are built later, many in the new communities that sprang up in the industrial revolution or to serve expanding populations.
        So 22,000 churches but only 9,000 built between 1000 and 1500.
        About 10% are now redundant.
        Most estimates on the internet include nonconformist chapels as churches, most of which are 18th/19th century.

        • Tim Wobble

          Ok thanks I’ll need to re check this then , but when you say ‘parishes’ of course many parishes had several churches like at Wiggenhall St Germans in Norfolk where there are two hamlets ( Wiggenhall St Peter and Wiggenhall St Mary both with substantial mediaeval churches ) …….and of course most Norman village churches such as Heath Chapel in Shropshire have simply dissapeared

          • Father Todd Unctious

            Yes and Eastlach in the Cotswolds. The lovely churches of Eastleach Martin and Eastleach Turville glower at each other over the headwaters of tbe Thames.

  • Mrs Arcanum

    Perhaps now, the anachronistic and often flouted legal requirement for a “daily act of collective worship of a broadly christian nature” in schools can be removed from the statue books?

    • Yorkieeye

      Yeah, then the gap can be filled with Islam, like many other aspects of life.

      • Mrs Arcanum

        Why not have no religious flavour in school. Just teach ‘about’ religion? Far simpler to manage and clear to understand. I really cannot understand how people do not realise, hanging on to the ‘christian’ schooling means schools are forced to accommodate other faiths too. Leave faith teaching to families and religious leaders. It is not the business of schools.

        • tom rose

          ” Leave faith teaching to families and religious leaders. It is not the business of schools.”

          It is no business of ANYONE until a person is old enough to decide for themselves.

          • Mrs Arcanum

            Trouble is you cannot prevent it. However, balanced impartial lessons about all religions might ameliorate the worst excesses.

          • tom rose

            Looking at some of the vitriolic comments on this thread I sometimes lose hope.

  • John Carins

    The nice lady who runs our local Vote Leave group is apolitical. Her motivation to “leave” is driven by her belief that the EU is Godless. It’s time that the C of E pinned its colours to the mast

    • Dave Bromage

      What this data shows is that the majority of Brits believe this “nice lady’s” reasons for Brexit are delusional hokum.
      “Vote Leave! The EU is Godless!” is the kind of message that will only cement the view that many Brexiteers are a bit loony.

      • John Carins

        No, you are wrong. It shows that there are many reasons for people to “leave”. Just because you disagree does not make it a valid reason. Other Godless dictatorships: Soviet USSR. I encourage all Christians to vote “out”

        • Father Todd Unctious

          Well thats 5% of the population on side then.

          • John Carins

            5% could be just the amount to tip it in “leaves” favour.

          • Tamerlane

            42%. Research ain’t your thing now is it? First you didn’t know the Howgarth Findings or the Kleusmax Anomaly, now you don’t even know basic stats. Sad. Twit.

          • Father Todd Unctious

            Wow. If only 42% were regular churchgoers. 27 million would more than fill all the redundant churches and chapels and we’d have traffic chaos every Sunday morning. Priests would be rockstars.Mass ,ticket only

          • Tamerlane

            Be that as it may. 42% identify as Christian. Get your facts right. Twit.

          • Father Todd Unctious

            Stop making things up just to sound clever dimbo.

          • Tamerlane

            ‘Identify as Christian’. I swear you’re an r-tard sometimes. Twit.

          • Father Todd Unctious

            The halfwit who thinks Germany won the war, that the Celts came here 6,000 years ago and Amaretto is not Italian now thinks Britain is the most religious country on Earth. You are as ever so wide of any mark.

          • Tamerlane

            It’s official. You are an r-tard. Twit.

          • Father Todd Unctious

            Its obvious you have nothing to share but the anger that spews from your total self absorption.
            You have such a high opinion of yourself, you resort to insult as default. Shallow child.

          • Father Todd Unctious

            If they were being honest. My friends are all honest. It is you Russians that are liars.

          • Father Todd Unctious

            What waiting to remind you you’re as dumb as a bag of hammers?

          • Tamerlane

            I assume she was talking to her clientèle, the fleet was in port.

          • Father Todd Unctious

            You’re nastier than that Tammy. Let’s see the real you red in tooth and claw. You horrible creep.
            Perhaps I can help. In the last two weeks, in over 100 posts you have found just one thing to criticise. A single spelling mistake. A miserly effort that has left you clinging to your limited range of insults

          • Yorkieeye

            Identifying and attending are two different things. Do you understand that? Twit

          • Tamerlane

            That’s exactly my point you imbecile. Next time engage brain before trying to be clever, it’s obviously not your forte.

          • Yorkieeye

            What is your problem? Stop disrupting conversations. You’re like a spoilt child who wants all the attention. Tiresome.

          • Tamerlane

            Bleat and bleat all you like loser. I shellack Lefties daily, get over yourself you arrogant twonk.

          • Father Todd Unctious

            The potty mouthed prince of insults has no argument again. Go away you foul mouthed bigot.

          • Tamerlane

            You tell him. Twit.

        • Dave Bromage

          Indeed there are many reasons people want to vote leave. Only yesterday I was involved in a debate with someone who wants Brexit because the EU “banned corporal punishment in schools”. Damn those Brussels bureaucrats stopping us beating children.
          That doesn’t stop voting Leave because of perceived Godlessness (more likely secularism, which is not the same thing) being a silly reason.

          • John Carins

            It’s not a silly reason for the lady concerned. As for corporal punishment in schools – bring it back.

          • Dave Bromage

            Is there a correlation, I wonder, between Christian values and wanting to wallop children with a cane?

          • John Carins

            Nice one. Probably only if you are a Roman Catholic.

          • Father Todd Unctious

            Lutherans would probably only do it naked and Calvinists would ban it in case anyone enjoyed it.

      • wibbling

        Only in your mind. It’s interesting really. Those frantic to remain chained to the EU insult people. You don’t get that from those wanting to leave.

        • Dave Bromage

          Why has this become a Brexit debate? The article is about the declining number of people who see Christianity as relevant.
          Thinking the EU is Godless is a strange view anyway. It’s full of Catholic countries and other Christian nations.
          It is, however, largely secular. To complain that this equates to godlessness is to misunderstand what secularism is.

  • Teacher

    I was baptised a catholic, lapsed into agnosticim then atheism and have an enduring affection for the C of E into which my children have been Christened. I am definitely a cultural Christian and am moved by the art, architecture, music, customs and values of Christianity. The loss of Christianity to this country would be a tragedy.

    • Badjumbly

      Except for the customs and the more dubious values, those things that you say move you can easily survive Christianity. I hope this brings some cheer.

  • Dave Bromage

    Good article with the exception of the claim that politicians are under pressure to keep their faith under wraps. Morgan, Pickles, Farron, Davies, Bruce, Burrowes, Dorries and Crabb are all prone to evangelising, with some openly pushing an evangelical agenda (particularly in education – because how else will CoE numbers rise if they can’t plant the seed early?)
    Cameron too, repeatedly chants his “Christian country” mantra. It’s true he’s no evangelical and uses his faith when it suits him personally. But to say he avoids the topic is laughable.
    Corbyn, meanwhile, is regularly sneered at for being an atheist.

    • JJD

      Who sneers at Corbyn for being an atheist? Social media? Social media sneers at anything and everything, that’s not the point.

      I remember Tim Farron being interviewed on a number of TV channels when he became Lib Dem leader. He was always asked about his Christian faith, in some cases interrogated about it, even asked outright if he could really be trusted with leadership of the party as an evangelical Christian. I don’t remember anyone, in any TV interviews, interrogating Jezza about his atheism, as if there were something surprising or scandalous about it.

      • Landphil

        Tim Farron is proof that there is no God and don’t even mention intelligent design.

        • Badjumbly

          I’m not seeing much evidence for the existence of Tim Farron.

  • NBeale

    This is all a bit misleading. The British Social Attitudes surveys on which these reports are based have (for reasons that are not clear) always overstimated the number of people with no religion. For example the BSA 2011 survey claimed 46% had “no religion” but the 2011 Census showed that the true figure was only 25%.

    • ohforheavensake

      On what basis do you assume that the Census figure reflects religious belief?

      • NBeale

        That’s not really the point. The BSA and the Census both ask people if they have “No religion”. The BSA takes a sample and the Census asks the whole country. It’s evident that the BSA sample is 80% more likley to say “no religion” than the country as a whole.

        • Mrs Arcanum

          The Census actually had a leading question for religion. So people were more likely to state some form of faith even if they put Jedi. As Atheism is not a religion, to answer Atheist or even Humanist is not correct.

          • Landphil

            I put ‘Traveller of Irish heritage’, did I tick the wrong box?

  • James Chilton

    T S Eliot predicted that when/if Christianity is abandoned, Western culture will decay and, ultimately, collapse in ruins. He did not foresee the problem of huge numbers of unassimilated Muslims who would “benefit” from the decline and fall of European cultures.

    It’s still too early to be certain that Eliot’s pessimism will turn out to be justified. But the future looks bleak.

    • ohforheavensake

      No, it doesn’t. We seem to be doing perfectly well without a dominant faith.

      • wibbling

        Considering the damage religion has done to society, but also the great good the basic morality it inspires, the Left of course hate religion. Now the ‘belief’ is in statism and that’s utterly repellent.

      • tolpuddle1

        If you think Britain is doing perfectly well – with a declining economy, broken society and mega-threats to its continued existence (as a recognisable Britain), try Specsavers.

        • Badjumbly

          His mistake was the word “perfectly”. However, Britain is doing better than most countries, including countries far more Christian than Britain.

          • tolpuddle1

            Apart from Poland and Malta – what Christian countries ?

            In Africa ? – terrible problems (like us !), but they’re going up, we’re going down.

            Britain “doing better” ?

            -well, if “better” includes growing political instability, a faltering (cheap-labour) economy, worsening inequality and bitter social divisions, a broken society….

        • Leon Wolfeson

          Well, sure, but Torynomics…

    • Trailblazer10

      It isn’t too early. The imposed cultural marxist identity politics system and mass immigration of a fast breeding patriarchal ideology has obvious consequences.

      • Leon Wolfeson

        So the Marxists in your head and your dislike of your own…

    • Will Jones

      Absolutely. I think the main problem with the kind of approach exemplified by this article (and to be fair it is typical) is that it assumes the proper response to the decline of religion is to make the situation worse by further secularising national and public life. But surely the loss of religion should be regarded as a social problem, given all the huge benefits individuals and society draw from religion (or good religion anyway). In the 1810s the government became aware that the burgeoning urban poor were not going to church and, combined with a fear of revolution, led Parliament to commit £1m to the building of new urban churches. Surely this kind of thing is the better response to a recognition of declining religiosity. Religious freedom doesn’t mean the state must be religion-free or neutral to the prospects of its religious life.

      • James Chilton

        Many new urban churches were built in the early 19th century to deal with the “moral emergency” to which you refer. I suspect it isn’t known whether the £1 million was well spent.

        For many reasons, such an initiative would almost certainly be a waste of money in modern times. And, in any case, it’s most unlikely it would be funded by the government.

        The mass media are the most powerful transmitters of anti-Christian propaganda in society now. They are destroying the Judeo-Christian heritage of these islands with an obscene alacrity. In its place, a world built on the “values” of materalism is being welcomed by almost everyone. The exception in this tale of secularisation in our society, is the rise of Islam and the deference shown to it by the civil authorities and the media.

        • Will Jones

          Yes I didn’t mean to imply the government should fund lots of church building right now – more buildings is hardly what the church needs at this point in time. I just meant that a better general response to the decline in religiosity is to see it as a social problem needing to be addressed rather than, as per this article, something to be used as a reason to roll back yet further the national and public role of religion. I agree that the media are on the whole pretty awful when it comes to covering and presenting religion and mostly buy in to the secularist and anti-religion agenda. I think a lot of it can be traced back to the awkward feeling you get when you visit an old relative who you know disapproves of the way you’re living.

          • James Chilton

            How many people who could influence the situation, see the decline in religious faith and its now vestigial role in public life as a social problem?

            If enough did (in the educated elites and the churches), the cultural decay associated with the repudiation of Christianity wouldn’t take place. As the old saying has it: a fish rots from the head down.

    • Hippograd

      T.S. Eliot was a toxic anti-semite. The fact that he was right about the decline of Christianity merely confirms what a vile person he was.

  • davidofkent

    In religious terms, this is undoubtedly true. We are not a christian nation. In the main, we are a secular nation, thank goodness. Unfortunately there is a growing minority of followers of a different and inherently forceful religion, so only time will tell. Faith is fine when personal. Religion is where the trouble starts. In the history of the world (as far as we know), there has never been a shortage of liars ready to tell everyone else how they should live, and religion is merely another form of political power. The human race will never progress until it rids itself entirely of false prophets. We can all be nice to one another, whether Christian or not, but experience shows that such niceness lasts only so long as a person is not threatened by others or is forced into competition for survival. Here endeth the lesson!

    • ohforheavensake

      What lesson? Who are we in competition with?

      • wibbling

        If you don’t understand that, you’re a bit dim.

    • Pretty_Polly

      Competition for survival is surely the basis of much of nature so it seems pretty_normal.

      Of course competition for survival could well be why the British electorate instinctively knew that mass immigration would be bad for them, and it looks like they were right.

    • Father Todd Unctious

      Luckily most of our religious fanatics upped sticks for Ametica between 1620 and 1870. Sadly we now have to deal with this early modern idiocy all over again.

      • Pfruit

        Can we send our theistic nutjobs back to you?

        Please…

        • Father Todd Unctious

          No. They are not welcome. US christians are intolerant wierdos.

          • Pfruit

            Indian Giver

    • Thanks for your comment. You say, “Faith is fine when personal”, but I wonder if you have really thought through the implications of that for a liberal democracy. What you believe (“faith”) must affect what you do otherwise it is not believed. Holding to a faith (and I am a Christian) must affect everything you do. It can never be merely “personal”. It informs how you think, what you say, what you believe is important. It will affect how you do your work, even politicians!

      The danger of seeking to make faith merely “personal” is that at some point society exerts pressure to silence people of certain views, and ultimately to make them act against conscience. That has got to be the most oppressive kind of society.

      One of the advantages of a liberal democracy is that in principle it allows people to say what they think and act according to conscience. That is a route to freedom.

    • tom rose

      “In the history of the world (as far as we know), there has never been a shortage of liars ready to tell everyone else how they should live, and religion is merely another form of political power. ”

      And that is the truth!

  • William Johns

    I have seen this posted elswhere and I think it particularly apt:

    Religion + Politics = Social Poison

    • Hippograd

      Diversity + Politics = Societal collapse.

  • JJD

    I don’t think anyone, religious or otherwise, will be surprised by the latest data. It has long been evident that the UK is a post-Christian society.

    So I wouldn’t quibble with much in this article, except the bit where we’re told that we’re going through an extraordinary period of social repair. That is a stretch, to say the least. Teenage pregnancies have diminished somewhat. And the divorce rate, while still sky-high, is not as bad as it has been. Drug use among teenagers has declined. All good. Does that constitute an “extraordinary period of social repair”? Come off it. Generation Y is more pragmatic and less rebellious than generation X. but these things come in cycles.

  • BaronHardup

    Christianity was only ever the national religion in the sense that the state first demanded and later expected that it subjected peoples should adhere to that religion. As democracy took a hold, people began to question what had previously been forced on them and began to liberate themselves from the pernicious tentacles of religion attached to the power mechanisms of the state. Now British people can belong to any religion or none. Surely this freedom to live according to ones own conscience is something to be celebrated? If Christianity has gone by the wayside, then presumably people have lost interest in its message. Plus of course, like all religions, it expects you to have total faith in a non-existent mythical being.

    • tolpuddle1

      Er, no – the three countries of Britain became Christian in the Dark Ages, when the State scarcely existed.

      If they hadn’t, they would inevitably have become Muslim.

      And, as throughout the world today, it was always the Poor who were most religious. Religion declined after 1700 with the growth of British power and public prosperity. Paganism – money & pleasure – is the (very fervent !) religion of today’s Britain.

      Our democracy is merely a by-product of Nonconformist Christianity; zilch to do with that of Ancient Greece.

      Christianity became, in time, religiously tolerant – which Britain won’t be when it becomes Muslim (as a result of UK’s low birth-rate and hatred of Christianity).

      BTW, when you meet God, you’ll realise He exists.

      • SunnyD

        God was invented by Man – how else would you know it’s a “he”?

        • davidshort10

          God is not a he. God has no gender.

          • SunnyD

            agreed – hence I used the term “it”

          • Philo Vance

            God is not a man, or a woman, or of any other gender. Nor, strictly speaking can God be said to be without gender. You cannot categorize God. In fact, you cannot really say that God exists, since God cannot be one being among others.

          • SunnyD

            as I said earlier – God is a man-made construct. An idea. in essence He/She/It doesn’t exist, except in the minds of the believers

          • SunnyD

            by that token, God/god/Yahweh/whatever can be whatever gender anyone ascribes

          • Philo Vance

            Of course, that’s what we all do, we inevitably “project,” and create constructs, while simultaneously recognizing that all analogical projections are inadequate, even puerile. There are similarities in difference with scientific and poetic statements. Light is perceived as wave and particle, for instance. Light is neither wave nor particle.

          • Philo Vance

            You weren’t listening. I said God did not exist, strictly speaking. God cannot be an idea or correspond to one, except by analogy Again, as for “existing”, God would to “exist” have to be one existent among others. No one, who knows anything about theology thinks God corresponds to any human construct. Human constructions are analogical attempts to engage in conversation about “God.” Believers do not believe God “corresponds” to our ideas. And, of course, all ideas are social constructs. It means very little. Yours are, too.

          • SunnyD

            as are yours.
            thanks for attempting to “educate” me.

          • justejudexultionis

            Got any empirical evidence for that assertion?

          • SunnyD

            every bible book, gospel book, the iliad, the odyssey – all examples and evidence of god/gods (as described by man/men)

          • Meepestos

            “God is a man-made construct” I concur and would add so is the superfluous concept of sin, which originated in Eurasia. After looking into the assertions made by some scientists, anthropologists, historians, and even some theologians and biblical scholars that geography and its environmental differences influence cultures and how they construct their beliefs and deities, I noticed how gods seem to have the same characteristic traits of those of that created them. I find the god character in the bible a limited one yet I can understand how folk would come up with such a character in an environment/locale such as one where we see a time of population movements that led to violent changes that elicits behaviors that we see in their god.

        • tolpuddle1

          Gender is one of God’s creations.

          God is described as “He” in the biblical tradition – for the sake of our limited human understanding.

          • SunnyD

            how can you know that? what evidence do you have that “gender is one of God’s creations”?

          • tolpuddle1

            The fact that gender exists.

          • SunnyD

            and who told you that “god” created it? what compelling evidence led you to that assertion?

          • tolpuddle1

            The evidence that we exist at all.

          • SunnyD

            “the evidence that we exist at all” means God created the universe? is that really the best you can do? do you also hear voices inside your head?

          • tolpuddle1

            Your post is two lines, containing 2 insults and 0 arguments.

          • SunnyD

            really? taking offence where none was meant is a little disingenuous but I grant you it gives you an easy exit, especially as you are obviously averse to answering my reasonable questions. I hope the following anecdote helps: I sometimes hear voices in my head. Sometimes it’s the voice of my conscience (or perhaps it’s just me talking/thinking to myself), but I like to think of it as my conscience. For example, this morning I got to work and found that someone had broken my 40th birthday coffee mug. “Irreplaceable!” I grunted at the post-it note apology/promise to buy me another mug. Later, what seemed like an inner voice calmed me and I was reminded that I’m a collection of molecules, in the same way as the grass, tarmac and picnic tables I was surrounded by at the time are. This realisation led me to ponder how transient my life has been and continues to be and I felt I was able to let it go (the angst I’d built up over a broken bleeding mug). From here it was a simple stepping stone to silently (and actively) forgiving the silly bint for her clumsiness. As peace washed over me (I’d entered a mild meditative state by this time, as I was actively controlling my breathing to aid the calming of my monkey-mind) an inner voice said “there, that’s better isn’t it?”

            I’m sorry you felt like I was insulting you by asking you whether you’d had a similar experience and hope sharing my experience proves I’m being genuine.

            Anyways, all I guess I’m saying when I posted my 2 liner yesterday is, what leads you to “know” (I’d say “assume”) that by virtue of the fact that genders and humankind exist means “God” (whatever you perceive him/her/it to be) created them? I then wanted to prompt you into sharing your personal experience (upon which I imagine your faith to be based) and perhaps even see if you could come up with something a little more tangible/evidential to back up your assertion and steadfast belief in (what I would call an imaginary) “God”

            But I suspect you prefer to play semantics and skirt the issue rather than directly tell me why you really believe that an imaginary (in my view) being created everything (except for himself perhaps?) in the universe (including our genders)

      • tom rose

        “Christianity became, in time, religiously tolerant – which Britain won’t be when it becomes Muslim (as a result of UK’s low birth-rate and hatred of Christianity).”

        Do you think that by repeating this myth over and over it will eventually become accepted truth. There will be no Muslim takeover of Christian and formerly Christian countries. Neither Christians nor Atheists will allow it.

        We have seen, in living memory (just) how a prejudiced, supremacist, violent minority can take over first a country, then a continent. It was obvious throughout the 1930’s what the Nazi’s were up to, but neighbouring countries did not grasp the danger to themselves of German re-armament, or they thought WW 1 defences were adequate protection against weaponry 20-years more evolved.

        We will not make the same mistakes again.

        • tolpuddle1

          But apart from migrants, there won’t be any Christians ! And no Atheists whatever !

          You seem blind to the self-evident

          – the existing Western population is ageing and will soon be shrinking rapidly (only tip-top medicine has prevented this from already happening)
          – whereas the native Western population has low birth rates (below replacement level), migrant groups have high birth rates
          – migration to Europe is speeding up and becoming increasingly Muslim in nature.

          Barring re-conversion to Christianity of Europe’s majority population, Islam is bound to take Europe over.

          As for the idea that the West’s remaining populations have the courage – or even the strength of mind and body – to prevent a Muslim takeover, that is (to put it politely) optimistic.

          • tom rose

            I sincerely hope that you are wrong.

        • Leon Wolfeson

          Your personalities… as you talk about those who held your views before you. No surprise you like the peddlers of death threats!

          • tom rose

            I have no liking whatsoever for “peddlers of death threats” Nor do I like Internet pests like you who make comments that ascribe views to me that I do not hold and have never held.

            You seem determined to display your angry, warped and twisted views to the world and to demonstrate your infinite capacity for misunderstanding, or wilfully mis-stating their clearly expressed views, opinions and ideas.

            Why?

  • Jimbo

    Britain is not a country.

    • justejudexultionis

      Well it won’t be when the liberals and their Islamist friends are done with it.

      • Jimbo

        No, it literally is not a country. Great Britain is simply the name of the island on which the countries of England, Scotland and Wales subside. It is not a country. People confuse it with the UK. But the union of the UK includes Northern Ireland, Gibraltar et al, which are not part of the island of Great Britain.

  • tolpuddle1

    The secular people of Britain are not reproducing, therefore are ageing, prior to their virtual disappearance.

    Which means it is only a matter of time before they are the oddballs.

    • Jacobi

      Neither are the Christians. I guess about 1.6 in my local supermarket and that is up due to the noticeable number of twins and therefore in-vitro techniques.
      In my church I would put the rate among the stressed tired looking pre-menopausal aging mums at 1.8.

      We need 2.1 remember!

      • Father Todd Unctious

        That 2.1 figure was set in the fifties when life expectsncy was 70. Now it is 80 (14% higher) the replacement rate is 14% lower at 1.8.

        • Jacobi

          Now Father, I see that with your other limitations you are disnumerate. But don’t despair. Remember that applies to the human reproduction age period say 20-50 in males and 16-42? in females

          Out side of that we are all just pottering along doing the gardening and going on conducted tours to Cambodia or Chile or wherever.
          I think it was Pelagius who said we can expect our three score and ten. He also said that some get three score and 20 but that can be a bit of a bind.
          But then they probably didn’t cover that at you seminary?

          • Father Todd Unctious

            Surely it matters not the age of the reproducers. If births match deaths, population stays stable.

          • Jacobi

            The problem nowadays is the cost of old age and the fact that “oldies” , with one or two exceptions do not contribute to it. This cost is sinking the NHS and the national economy.
            The younger wealth-producing section of the population is declining ( but that is another discussion) so we are reliant on immigration both from the EU but more worryingly in some respects from outside of the EU.
            But that is yet another discussion.

            Now whisky time!

  • tolpuddle1

    “There are no Atheists in a shipwreck.”

    And with Britain and the entire West – already in hard times – heading for inescapable shipwreck (principally because they’re post-Christian), our hitting the rocks is a matter of When, not If.

    • Badjumbly

      Thanks to the internet, you don’t need to walk the streets wearing a sandwich-board.

      • tolpuddle1

        Don’t you follow the news, you ignorant clown ?

    • LiamT

      but thats bullshit. im sorry, put me in any situation you want but it wont have me grasping for an invisible friend to help me.

      yes, lets rely on the entity that gave us the dark ages to sort out our problems….

      • davidshort10

        You don’t know that. You don’t know what you’ll think when on a plummeting airplane or at the top of a skyscraper that’s just been hit by a jet piloted by a fanatical Muslim.

        • LiamT

          bullshit, i have been close to death before and it didn’t suddenly lobotomise me and make me believe in fairies.

          much like the soldiers who fought in wars and strangely didn’t become irrational sky fairy believers. this is just the ‘no atheists in foxholes’ guff that the religious claim which has been thoroughly disproved. i assume because it makes themselves feel better about believing in the adult santa.

          • tolpuddle1

            Well, wonderful, heroic you !

            But what should mere ORDINARY mortals do ?

            Christianity does better in wartime than in peacetime, and in the Forces better than on Civvy Street.

          • JoeCro

            Santa is not real? My whole world has just been rocked, you will be telling me that the tooth fairy doesn’t exist next.

          • LiamT

            well, plenty of you seem to think the zombie jew is real yet there has never been any proof of that. far more evidence for santa and st nicholas was a real person. so…..

        • tom rose

          I cam within hours of dying at the age of 14, due to a botched abdominal operation a year earlier. At no point did I experience any increase in belief in any kind of omnipotent being or afterlife.

          I have no memory of anything before I was born (to be more precise, before the age of two). I expect death to be similar. Like most folk I hope my life will not end in great pain, but I am not expecting to meet my maker, or to be confronted with either eternal torment or eternal bliss.

      • tolpuddle1

        The Dark Ages were caused by the collapse of the Western Roman Empire.

        Caused in turn by human vices – why blame God or the Church ?

        • BrooklynNow

          Actually caused by the invasion and take over of ethnic groups (Germanic Slavic etc) not wanting to assimilate to Roman-ness and preferring to rule themselves rather let the former rulers rule.

          Sound familiar?

          But it is doubtful that Romans had more vices than barbarian tribes or vice versa. One just eventually got stronger relative to the other.

    • Vanity Unfair

      “There are no Atheists in a shipwreck.” Source and evidence, please.

      • tolpuddle1

        Source – traditional.

        Evidence

        – the Poor of the world are much more religious than its Rich

        – that religion booms in Hard Times (war, slump etc), but wilts when people are snug.

  • Landphil

    When passing down the Chequers hill, Magic FM is always overtaken by a rap station, having its evil way with ABBA.

  • Jacobi

    Lies damned lies and statistics! Remember that poll results are determined by who frames and asks the questions not by who answers them. But within a +/- 5% error these stats do indicate a trend.

    The unedifying and growing reality of Islam is undoubtedly putting people off religion generally.

    The main problem over the last 50 years has been a collapse in confidence within the Christian churches, both Protestant and surprisingly Catholic! This must be corrected and is a good area for one time conflicting interpretations of Christianity, to now co-operate. ++ Selby has proved to be a very good apologist for Christianity recently.

    We Christians must now be less hesitant about expressing our position openly whenever it is appropriate and not keeping it furtively to ourselves, a fault that Atheists, Secularist and of course Muslims, do not seem to suffer from.

    • Pfruit

      Maybe people just stopped believing in magical sky wizards?

      • Jacobi

        Agreed. That is the problem. They have stopped believing in reality, the next world, and are now only concerned with fleeting illusions, and boy, are they in for a shock!

        • Jesus Smith

          You do realize that falsely representing assertions as truth is known as lying?

          • Jacobi

            Yes. And I do not lie.

          • JoeCro

            There is no God,enjoy life and relax. There is no afterlife so make the most of what you have on Earth.

          • Jacobi

            Sez you!

          • Jacobi

            Sez you. Corvus fruggilegus!

          • Hayekian

            yes, but don’t follow the baby boomers and use this as an excuse to screw up the lives and futures of their kids and societies in the pursuit of selfish mirages.

          • Jesus Smith

            So you don’t realize that falsely representing assertions as truth is lying?

          • 2fishypoliticians

            How do we know that your own assertions and implications are truth and not lies? Prove them please.

          • Jesus Smith

            Go read a book or perhaps go to school. I don’t make any assertions I can’t back up with facts.

          • 2fishypoliticians

            You can’t guarantee that the books you read or what you are taught at school is true.

          • Jesus Smith

            I see. So I should make false assertions based on faith? I get it now. If I don’t know something for certain or I can’t grant a high probability I should simply lie.
            Thanks for your help.

        • Pfruit

          “the next world” is fantasy. I am as afraid of your “next world” as I am of The Nothing from The Neverending Story.

          • Jacobi

            And your remarks and those of other such as you are meaningless and without substance are getting repetitive.
            I have already offered a reasonable logical approach to the alternative. But that’s enough for today. A problem to deal with, real or unreal, still a problem. Air leaking round the rime of the rear off side!

        • tom rose

          It is not a problem. it is progress.

          What is this “next world” that you talk about? How do you know that it exists and is not some invention to keep you from rebelling over your lot in this world?

          • Jacobi

            And how do you know it doesn’t?

          • tom rose

            There you go making assumptions. I DO NOT KNOW that there is no life after death, just as YOU DO NOT KNOW that there is:

            However:

            1. There is no evidence for life after death, only hearsay
            2. Everything I know about how the world works indicates that when the physical body stops working that is the end of you … body, spirit, soul everything that you might think makes up you.

            Your only “immortality” is in the memories of others and any creations you leave behind.

          • Jacobi

            I make assumptions on good evidence, and of course I see I was right.
            There is evidence for life after death.
            Record and memory are involved.
            Your point 2. is of course an assumption.

    • E.I.Cronin

      Just posted a reply to King Zog (above) which may cheer you up.

      • Jacobi

        Ta, EIC. We all need cheering up. Tough times ahead.

        • E.I.Cronin

          Perhaps the rollback will come from the evangelical wings in the West and Churches in the developing world who have never been poisoned by appeasement and PC. Yes tough times ahead. But 44% of 64 million is still a lot of Christians. Plus some 40% of unmentionables are purely nominal.

  • 1234567890

    Who has opened the doors, on both sides of the Atlantic? The EU & the “Immigration and Nationality Act of 1965”, in the USA have been a two-pronged attack to alter the electorate into a more easily manipulated group. The moneyed clique have used a money-grab by third world opportunists to accomplish their own power-grab at the ballot box. The white, Christian, heterosexual man has been the target group to dilute, on both sides of the pond, since the end of WWII.

    • If white Christian heterosexual men instead of leading the world to a better future let themselves get drawn in hysterical paranoia like your desribed, they got nobody to blame but themselves.

      • 1234567890

        You remind me of the old adage..’tis better to remain silent and thought a fool…

  • Sue Smith

    May I commend this lecture from Niall Ferguson from last Sunday evening about all things political and social. Ferguson describes himself as an “applied Historian”.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KIsZoGkedCo

  • David Prentice

    The BBC doesn’t do Christianity. So they put a Muslim in charge of religious broadcasting – how do you like them apples, eh, Colonel? – and looked on as it was slowly but surely undermined into nothingness. They will miss it, particularly when the howling mobs are surrounding Broadcasting House shrieking for the deviants to come out and face the noose. But that’s for another day.

    • justejudexultionis

      The BBC is actively hostile to Christianity and is increasingly being hijacked by the Islamic/Islamist agenda. Note that Islamic and Islamist are synonyms.

    • Leon Wolfeson

      Really, you’ll wait before you get your mobs out and…

      • David Prentice

        The mobs currently pitching gays off buildings in Iraq aren’t my people, Wolfy. But in your pampered “progressive” world, it’s always the white male’s fault, eh.

        • Leon Wolfeson

          Oh, too nice for you eh?

          As you project your PC bigotry at me. I’m not who you are trying to project me as, mob-man.

          • David Prentice

            Look in the mirror, Leon. An intolerant left-wing bigot looks back.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            For you? Certainly, very much so. The person in your mirror is YOU.

            Why do you hate so many people?

          • David Prentice

            The person in your mirror is YOU

            You got me.

  • Karl W South

    I don’t understand why the Christian churches aren’t working to proselytise in the Muslim community. It would give the churches the new members they need, help those currently Muslim to integrate, and mitigate the effects of Islam and Islamism on UK society and the majority non-religious population.

    • Hippograd

      What a disgraceful suggestion! All decent Christians will be utterly appalled by the suggestion that Muslims should abandon their tolerant and freethinking faith and embrace the poisonous legacy of so-called Christianity. I join Moshe Kantor and other members of the Zoroastrian community in looking forward to the day when Islam has stamped out the last vestiges of Christianity not just in the so-called British Isles but right across Europe.

      • All decent Christians and decent Muslims alike mind their own business and respect each other free choice. Both however got branches of their faith obsessed with converting others through force or coercion.

        • Hippograd

          All decent Christians and decent Muslims alike mind their own business and respect each other free choice.

          What is the standard penalty for apostasy in Islam, dear?

          Both however got branches of their faith obsessed with converting others through force or coercion.

          How big are those branches in Islam, dear? How big are they in Christianity?

          https://islamqa.info/en/20327

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Thanks for listing your views out.

          • Hippograd

            I support Israel in her resolute refusal to allow mass immigration by kushim, Muslims and other third-world enrichers. I don’t want Israelis to be raped, murdered, robbed and defrauded in the way countless Europeans have been.

            Please explain how my views are an expression of hate toward Israelis.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            So you want Israel destroyed as ever, right, as you ignore what Israel does. You are just after Jews, of course, as you endorse crimes except those you care about.

            And no, I just note your posts exist. And that South Africa’s regime changed… you really DO want history to repeat itself.

          • Hippograd

            No, Leon: I do NOT want Israel destroyed. If I wanted Israel destroyed I would support mass immigration by kushim and Muslims into Israel. I don’t: I oppose mass immigration into Israel. How many times do I have to say it?

            Benyamin Netanyahu is a racist, xenophobe and true Israeli patriot. I fully support the fences he has built around Israel and the tough laws he has passed to stop illegal infiltrators destroying the nation of Israel.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            So you admit you’re after every last Jew everwhere, not just Israel, right.
            You won’t let us flee either, check.

            As you get confused about what a patriot is… as you support unpopular and damaging policies. As you have no idea what was passed, and what was struck down in the courts, etc.

          • Hippograd

            Read carefully, Leon: I support Israel’s border-walls and tough laws against infiltrators. I do not want Israel to be invaded by Arabushim and kushim: I want it to be a philanthropic state run by the philanthropic community for the benefit of the philanthropic community.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Exactly, you’re all for getting Israel given the SA treatment, as you complain about Jews you don’t like because of their skin color… you see hate as “philanthropic”….

          • Hippograd

            Arabushim are not Jewish. Kushim are not usually Jewish either. It is not me who is “oppressing” Ethiopian Jews and Sephardim in Israel. I’m not putting up border fences in Israel either — I am merely applauding them from afar.

        • anonuk

          Like Paedo Mo Himself, right?

      • tom rose

        I hope that this was meant as a satirical comment, rather than being a statement of your true beliefs.

    • Paul Hiett

      Why don’t you convert to Islam and make it easier on them?

    • justejudexultionis

      Well said. They aren’t doing it because it will lead to many martyrdoms. And Christians today are cowards.

    • uberwest

      They would be arrested for jeopardising community cohesion.

  • Hippograd

    This underlines the absolutely vital need for more women, gay and transsexual priests. Unless Christianity is made relevant to the modern age, it will be rejected by modern folk. Why else would a pro-Christian paper like the Guardian be in favour of these vibrant initiatives?

    • LiamT

      but why? we dont need bronze age mythology of dubious morals dictating our lives. we all now know that being religious doesnt make you a better person, in fact the opposite has been proven.

      isnt it time to move on from invisible friends and associated nonsense?

      • justejudexultionis

        ‘Bronze age mythology’ lol. You do realise that the New Testament was written at least a thousand years after the Bronze Age in the Levant? In any case, what the has the antiquity, or relative novelty, got to do with whether something is true or not? Archimedes displacement theory is still used and that is at least two thousand years old.

        • Jesus Smith

          Ha ha. Lol.
          Christianity derives from the group of Ancient Semitic [polytheistic] religions practiced by the Canaanites living in the ancient Levant from at least the early Bronze Age through the first centuries of the Common Era.
          Look up “El” and “Elyon” etc. (Translated “God” and “Most High” in the Bible).

          Are you an atheist pretending to be a religiot? You’re doing a great job representing ignorance and (in an earlier post) an inability to do simple mathematics.

          • BrooklynNow

            Ignorance yourself. So Christianity is the same as the Canaanite religions, the Hebrew religion, Judaism, and Islam now? Describing Christianity as “Bronze Age” because some elements may derive from a poorly understood Canaanite religion IS ignorant, and worse is calling ignorant the person who points this out.

            It’s the “all religions are the same” (equally bad say many atheists– equally good say the PC pols) malarkey that is behind so much of Britain’ s current cultural malaise…

          • Jesus Smith

            Is there something wrong with the brains of religiots?
            If you’re incapable of reading please don’t comment.

          • Robertt1

            You think you derive from a chimp, so stop pretending your opinion has any objective value. Why should we believe anything chimp says?

          • Hayekian

            A chimp is a cousin and not a direct ancestor but if a chimp presents a coherent evidence based argument then we should always believe them in preference to someone who doesn’t

      • JoeCro

        The flying spaghetti monster will be most displeased. Now go and pray to the holy collander and repent your sins.

        • LiamT

          at least colanders exist 😉

      • Hippograd

        Isn’t it time to move on from bleating half-witted atheist slogans about “bronze age mythology” and “invisible friends”? The mainstream atheist “community” supports mass immigration by Muslims and other third-worlders who do not accept Enlightenment values, to put it mildly. That’s how rational and freethinking mainstream atheists are.

        The mainstream atheist “community” also believes in the highly irrational dogma of human equality, although Science (Peace Be Upon It) clearly demonstrates that men and women and different races differ hugely in their psychology and average abilities.

        But don’t tell me: there is far more variation among so-called “races” than between them. Sexism, racism and homophobia are huge problems.

      • Robertt1

        I don’t need the dubious baseless morals of people who believe that their intelligence appeared by accident, to dictate in my life.

        The people educated by that “bronze age mythology” rule the world and they are the best in almost all the fields. Although they represent about 2% of the world population, they received almost 30% of the Nobel prizes.

        The Western civilization was built by people who believed in that “bronze age mythology”, on those moral principles.

        The “bronze age mythology” was tested and proven right over and over, since then.

        No religion, or any ideology can make you a better person if you don’t want to become a better person. The best and most noble persons I know in history were Christians. People who sacrificed themselves and their money to help others. I didn’t found any Atheist who I can admire.

        Putting all the religions in the same pot is a proof of ignorance and stupidity.

        Stop pretending to speak in the name of all (“we don’t need”, “we know” etc).

        • LiamT

          oh dear. yes, its far better to be created by a genocidal megalomaniac called god isnt it? – one of those deities who are obsessed with genitals too.

          best in their fields? now? dont make me laugh. yes, they used to be, when people were persecuted for not believing in that bronze age myth.

          who cares what people thought that far ago? they also had a terrible grasp of lots of things. lets not forget the dark ages that religion brought with it.

          proven right over and over? you mean all the BS in genesis? all the other stuff about rape being ok as long as you pay the father? that the bible doesnt even know about our own solar system let alone how the universe works?

          christians… like hitler?

          “I didn’t found any Atheist who I can admire.” oh dear. thats maybe because your sky fairy clan used to execute those of us who didnt agree with your mass delusion.

          all religions are crazy. they are for the mentally deficient, the logically impaired and these days, for people who want to try and escape the truth. yes, im sure your talking snake jew zombie religion is far less ridiculous than the islamic flying donkey story. you really do think yours is less crazy than scientology dont you? even though you cannot even prove this JC even existed.

          humans dont need this crap. some of you mental weaklings might need consolation in invisible friends but i would rather have a basis in reality.

    • You reminded me a gay activist who demanded more gay teaches to come out on kids. All because few teens may require support in their search for sexuality. Hey! School is about education, studying subjects, math, science, literacy. Finding kids sexuality is not its purpose. So discriminate straight teaches is not a solution for any problem here. Similarly, church is not about proving some gender or, again, sexuality matters. Church is about serving the need of human soul to search for better in a group of like minded people. Likeminded not in their take on sexuality or gender competition, but on their approach to having their conscience washed off layers of bad intentions and deeds. First they sexualized and gender-war-ed schools, then they did the same to church. Nothing left out there to deal with the actual matter of human soul. So the church is dying.

      • Hippograd

        Self-obsessed think the universe revolves around them. Unfortunately, there are a lot of self-obsessed people on the left and they don’t agree about who constitutes the centre of the universe.

        • Robertt1

          And some self-obsessed people think the universe should revolve around their weird sexual preferences.

  • JSC

    The Church has itself entirely to blame as it has repeatedly supported the mass immigration of (non-Christian) religious extremists into the UK, against the wishes of its members and the UK in general and worse still, told the extremists their religion would be respected as equal to Christianity. They have defended every other religion other than their own by proffering their own beliefs as a shield for other religious people that don’t actually believe anything remotely the same as they do.

    Example: a while ago I was watching some Muslims debate atheists. The atheists made a point specifically about Islam and the plausibility of a personal God. Immediately the Christians of the audience jumped to the Muslims defence, offering them up a whole host of excuses and reasons why the atheists interpretation of a personal god were wrong. Except, inadvertently, they weren’t attacking the atheists assumptions as they thought they were, those assumptions were the legit, popular understanding of Allah and the excuses and reasons they offered, although commonly held by Christians, are not believed at all amongst muslims. Of course the Muslim speakers never drew attention to this fact and were more than happy to let the debate move onto attacking the Christians beliefs that had been so eagerly offered.

    It isn’t just Christians that project their beliefs like this either, liberals and leftists (for some inexplicable reason) both project their assumed values and worldview onto Muslims too. Who they are convinced are multi-kulti happy-clappy liberal-secularists, despite all the available evidence pointing to a far-right, ultra-conservative, theocratic worldview.

    • JoeCro

      The correct answer is the Mormons.

    • “In short: remember guys, you’re supposed to be justifying your own faith, not everyone elses. If you’re defending their faith too, then everyone can take it as a given that yours is wrong.”

      Exactly: not a single high ranking Christian passes this test. None.

    • whatever name

      Btw the RCC is lying about its mass attendance figures, which is sad and embarrassing for them. The latest figure published in the 2014 Catholic Directory shows that under a million attend mass weekly.

      The RCC in England and Wales took a decision during 2014 to stop collecting attendance figures and no figure was given in the 2015 Catholic Directory for the first time in 140 years. Six months later they reported to the media that mass attendance had doubled to over two million.

      The percentage of Catholics in England and Wales attending mass weekly is in reality closer to 10% rather than the imaginary 27% that the RCC reports in this study.

      At least the C of E is honest, the RCC are simply lying, trying to deceive themselves and others – sad.

    • Leon Wolfeson

      So you blame in your PC the entire left and LibDems… as you talk about your hate of i.e. Sihks and Jews in your monoculturalism.. and state your own “far-right, ultra-conservative, theocratic worldview”.

      Yes, how do you justify that un-Christian viewpoint? You’re one person, and your issues with Christianity are yours.

      • JSC

        I’m not a Christian and although I’m only one person with a view, I’ve seen what I described (Christians defending other religions with their own beliefs, which aren’t shared) dozens of times. My point being these people aren’t actually your allies despite them believing in god. In fact many atheistic arguments actually offer Christians an opportunity to score points over other religions. Ask a Christian about biblical literalism and the majority will tell you it’s a naive and unsophisticated way of reading of the bible, yet that’s exactly how most practicing Muslims read the koran, and indeed, how the koran instructs that you should read it. Original sin? Doesn’t exist in Islam. Jesus? Didn’t die on the cross in Islam. In short, not the same beliefs, not the same god, not the same full-stop.

        As for the benefits of monoculture, let me point out an absolute cracker: One law for all, and all equal under that law. Bam, how’d you like those apples?

        Now let us now compare that with multiculturalism; so I’m supposed to “respect” everyones “cultural practices” right? And I can’t just them by my own apparently arbitrary standards? So we accept say… Child marriage? Forced marriage? Honor killings? Polygamy? Face veils? FGM? Child sacrifice? Slavery? Apartheid? Animal sacrifice? The caste system? Sati? Death for apostates/blasphemers?

        The list is endless and it is inevitable that the only way you can “respect” other “cultural practices” is by writing exceptions to the law for them. End result: two classes of citizens. I refer you to the history books to see what happends when two classes of citizens are formed in one nation, you’ll usually see a section on it at the beginning of any book on any civil war, anywhere.

        There is no strength in diversity, diversity is almost the definition of weakness. Weakness of law, weakness of ethics, weakness of nationhood. Multiculturalism fundamentally undermines equality under law and indeed the very concept of universal law.

        • Leon Wolfeson

          I can see, your views are certainly not Christian. As you attack Christians for not joining in your 2 minute hates… *you* are not my ally, as you try and cause anti-Christian and anti-theist hate!

          Rude “scoring”, being rude for the sake of it, is not Christian. As you spout off PC bigotry which simply exposes your lack of knowledge about Muslims – indeed, it’s the ones who tend to interpret most heavily who are the primary issue .

          As you name your issue with i.e. Sihks and Jews… as you list out many of your Far Right’s practices. As you ignore the fact British law works fine… as you complain you can’t bully freely.

          As you hate everything not just like you, of course, as you hate the law, ethics… all for your supremacist views. You’re the coward here, as you scream on about the evils of allowing again i.e. Sihks and Jews..and for that matter asians, lesbians, etc. etc.

          Your ignorance of the concept of universal law is also a fact, oh well. It’s not your bigoted intolerance of those outside your very small poltiical faction.

          • JSC

            Lol wut? If your 90% gibberish post isn’t proof that god is bad for the brain I don’t know what is. I tolerate the tolerable, but you break the law, you go to jail. And no, we’re not changing the law so you can break it and not go to jail, and no I don’t care if you think god says it’s OK. If that displeases you, find a more backwards country that’s to your fancy.

            P.S.

            You keep using the term ‘PC’ in an incredibly incongruous fashion, I don’t think that word means what you think it does.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            I’m not writing your posts. And I get you think theism is a crime, check, and that you demand the law punish it. It’s not a crime, of course, outside your hate fantasies.

            Your desire for a backward country, worse than your beloved USSR and how it tried to suppress theism…. yes, you go leave Britain and find it. North Korea might fit depending on if you see their state faith as hero worship or a religion.

            As you blame me for your poor understanding of the term PC, and how it fits you.

          • JSC

            I know you think your theist delusions entitle you to be above the law and you think everyone else must humour you and your laughable god fantasies, but I have news for you. We don’t actually have to accept it at all, nor will we play along with your game and if you don’t like it perhaps you’re just being a little intolerant of my atheism, eh? I’ll accept your argument of ‘because god says I can/should’ the day you put him on the table and I hear it from his own lips. Until then…

          • Leon Wolfeson

            So you knows your issues… as you blame me for things you invent, out of your bigotry. Things which you “knows”, your *faith*… plain old fashioned stereotyping with no basis in fact!

            Your personalities don’t accept theists existing, I get it, as you refuse to be part of society and accept the law… as you ignore why I’m intolerant of you – that’d be your hate and bigotry.

            Those “evil” religiously inspired concepts, like courts of law…why…

          • JSC

            Calling an atheist ‘bigot’ while clearly being unaware the word means ‘by god’, priceless. By what god would I be being a bigot pray tell?

          • Leon Wolfeson

            JSC; Whining about common usage of English, check.

          • JSC

            Bigot: “late 16th century (denoting a superstitious religious hypocrite)”. Sound like anyone you know?

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Yes, you sound like yourself.

          • JSC

            Zzz…

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Yea, those boring facts.

  • The final paragraph of this article pretty much sums up Britain in 2016: “We cannot discount the possibility of a Christian revival; the Christian faith specialises in defying the odds. But it seems more likely that Britain will continue to muddle along as a post-Christian country with quaint customs that derive from its history as a deeply religious country. Some will find this sad, others as a sign of progress, but the greater majority will view it with indifference.”

    Most will view it with indifference unfortunately. Right up until they are “asked” whether they would like to convert, be killed or pay the Jizya.

    • justejudexultionis

      Yes, well said, but we must resist Islam vigorously. We must also resist the multiculturalist dhimmis in the BBC and government who are forcing this desert superstition on us.

      • IainRMuir

        “but we must resist Islam vigorously”

        And how do you suggest we do that? Our MPs by and large are not interested, local councils are not interested, the MSM are certainly not interested, many members of the public are only interested in the next moronic TV show, the police will turn on anybody that THEY think has gone too far.

        Unfortunately, people will only start to resist when the persecution starts. Then it will be very nasty indeed.

        The initial warnings were issued years ago but people still voted for the parties that were doing the damage. We’re sleep walking into civil war.

        • Leon Wolfeson

          Yes, I’m sure people will resist your plans for persecution, and I’m sure you’ll turn nasty… as you do the damage, and call for a civil war.

      • Leon Wolfeson

        Ah yes, the evil people who are not your sort of monocultist, and hence don’t hate i.e. Sihks and Jews…

    • anonuk

      Like the French in 1940.

    • Pretty_Polly

      Surely the U turn will come when they ask for a bacon sandwich or a drink and are told they can’t have one.. ?

    • Father Todd Unctious

      You’re a nasty piece of work Weston. A rabble rouser who inspired the mass murderer Breivik.
      Still only 150 people voted for you. You are an angry creep shouting from the margins.

      • You constantly bring Breivik into the equation in order to bring about guilt by association, but it just doesn’t work my dear chap! Writing about the threat of Islam (and the Left) has nothing to do with slaughtering young leftists on an Island. You shame only yourself when you attempt to link the two.

        You mock the electoral results of Liberty GB, but very few people know who we are and those that do voted for UKIP – which is understandable considering they had a realistitc chance of electoral success.

        But a low vote for me in 2015 does not mean a low vote in 2019 or 2024. I’m sure even a person as half-witted as you has noticed the rise of the so called “far-right” across Europe. This is a perfectly natural reaction to the threat of Islam and the its leftist allies.

        You will hate it of course, but the rise of the right is unstoppable. If UKIP refuse to stand up to Islam then it will fall to Liberty GB or a similar movement to take up the reins. We are not immune to this political change just because we are British. We will soon have our own version of Wilders, Marine Le Pen, Sweden Democrats, AFD, Orban of Hungary, Zeman of Czech Republic etc etc etc.

        As I say, you will hate it when it happens here. But then again, it is entirely a fault of your own making. You can only expect a natural reaction when you set in motion circumstances that mortally threaten us as a people, a culture, a country and a civilisation.

        Meanwhile mock away, but bear in mind your wicked days will soon be ending.

        • Father Todd Unctious

          I have never mentioned Breivik in a single previous post. I even had to look up the spelling you evil liar.
          Of course I mock tbe ele tion result of your piddling little charade of a party. You and it are a total joke. Viscious and nasty but nonetheless a comedy of errors.
          Nice to see your abysmal agenda red in tooth and claw. What a disgusting individual you are to suggest that rightvwing bigotry is ” natural”.
          Please don’ t die just yet Weston. I have a gammy leg and won’ t be fit to dance on your grave.

          • “Please don’ t die just yet Weston. I have a gammy leg and won’ t be fit to dance on your grave.”

            I will try not to! I should hate to ruin the impending pleasure of a kind, decent, tolerant, compassionate, generous and moral Lefty such as yourself!

          • Father Todd Unctious

            I can still urinate. So I could still enjoy my gloating. How did you end up such an appalling disgrace? You bring shame on our country with your vile bigotry.

          • I appreciate you are unbalanced Father Todd, but you must be aware that people read your comments? What on earth do you think they make of them?

          • Father Todd Unctious

            I make no apology to you Weston. You have been told many times to get off this discussion platform.
            You need to know just how despised you are.
            Did the fact that 99.7 % of people did not vote for you not give you a clue?

          • tom rose

            We think that whether Paul Weston’s predictions come true or not, he is reasonable, balanced, polite, respectful … and that Father Todd Unctious is aggressive, biassed, prejudiced, and, if he is anything like his on-line presence in real life, a deeply unpleasant person.

          • Thank you Tom!

          • Leon Wolfeson

            So you think you’re a majority. Sad.

            As you get confused and…

          • tom rose

            So answer this: Who do YOU think has made their points in a polite and reasonable manner, and who do you thing is an example of all much that is despicable?

            a) Paul Weston
            b) Father Todd Unctious

          • Leon Wolfeson

            b.

            He’s not the one making death threats. That automagically puts you outside any version of politeness and reason, as far as I’m concerned.

          • tom rose

            No point trying to have a sensible discussion with you then. Goodbye.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            So you think discussion is only possible among those who are all for death threats? Well.
            I hope you don’t kill anyone, then.

          • tom rose

            Either you are mentally unbalanced, or you enjoy taunting people in blogs. I do not understand why you would parade your bigotry, aggressiveness and lack of logic for the whole world to see.

            And here is the content of the deleted comment:

            “No point trying to have a sensible discussion with you then. Goodbye?

          • Leon Wolfeson

            This is what I believe – Death threats are unacceptable, period. That’s my entire point here.

            Your arrant name-calling, lying (you said you were leaving) and other complaints…just show you are what you accuse me of being.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Ah, he holds other views to you…

          • ivor biggin

            Get buried at sea, then he will drown.

          • tom rose

            A pity your ability to empathize is not up to the standard of your ability to invent insults.

        • Leon Wolfeson

          You are the one making excuses for people chosing to be extremists – you’re the one making threats here, showing where you come from.

          Your anti-democratic views are also sad.

    • My interpretation – none of these future predictions will occur as journalists imagine. Instead there will be chaos and civil war.

      • Leon Wolfeson

        Well, if you want that…

    • Leon Wolfeson

      Well, that’s your plan.

  • Bob Hutton

    It’s the sovereignty of God. People will not come to repentance and faith in Christ unless God draws them and grants the gift of faith, see John 6 v 44 and v 65.

    • Paul Hiett

      Oh horseshit, Bob. There are thousands of religions out there…hell, Christianity has over 43,000 denominations alone. You really think that the religion your parents indoctrinated you as a kid just so happens to be the one true religion? Open your eyes.

      • justejudexultionis

        You open yours. What kind of logic is it that you are pedalling? Just because there are an infinite number of possible answers to a question does not preclude the existence of a single correct answer.

      • Dominic Stockford

        Anyone who follows a religion and DOESN’T think it to be the only true one is, logically, an absolute dipstick. So take this relativistic rubbish away.

      • JoeCro

        I find your lack of faith disturbing.

        • GoJebus

          He’s got faith – just not in giant living bats made of cheese, or a god. Fair enough the bats don’t have so much written about them, but you cannot deny they exist if you believe in a god because like a god, they leave not a single clue as to their reality.

          • JoeCro

            Darth Vader

          • GoJebus

            Ah, yes. Well at least he exists. Countless films, books and stories featuring him must mean he does.

      • anonuk

        “Are you Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1879, or
        Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1912?”

    • Jesus Smith

      … Also we mustn’t forget, unless you can get a Leprechaun so drunk that you can steal his shoes, you won’t be able walk over the rainbow to steal his gold.

      • GoJebus

        …I believe that to be true.

  • Toy Pupanbai

    From the time of Trollope’s, “The Warden”, we in England a t least, have been quietly letting go and putting to sleep, the C of E, (which has concurred!) and Christianity generally.
    Now we have this wretched Mohammedanism foisted upon us.
    This distracting tool of Marxist Critical Theory, is doing an excellent job.
    That so large a proportion of the population are willing to REMAIN and accept our cultural destruction, shews how far the rot has spread.
    The generation that fought the last war are moving on.
    My grandfather died on the Somme just 100 years ago: For what?

    .

    • Hegelman

      Marxism? I don’t see the connection. Karl Marx was no supporter of Islam or any other religion to put it mildly.

      Britain also historically went out of its way to encourage Islamic militancy for its own purposes. In India it backed the Muslims against the Hindus, creating Pakistan. I hope you are happy with that achievement. Britain and the US backed the most vicious Islamic fundamentalists in Afghanistan to battle the Soviets. Another great achievement. So now your own petted attack dog is attacking you. Well, you have someone else to blame – Karl Marx !

  • TheJustCity

    The OP seems to have overlooked the overtly god-bothering and pulpit-written-into-his-delivery tenure of Blair. His faith schools initiative and ‘Faith will solve all’ narrative has seen to it that the most devout of one religion – thanks to the ‘all Faiths share the same values’ diktats of multicultural relativism – is dangerously undermining the integrity of society.

    • Dominic Stockford

      He has no faith.

    • Fraser Bailey

      Exactly – yet another example of Blair’s evil and incompetence.

  • There is a need to look at the wider picture than religion itself. Christian religion is a foundation for western laws and morals. The church formed these areas of human life carefully, purposefully and for a long time. Once the beliefs system behind the laws and morals goes, they will disintegrate. We can already observe a major shift in understanding of fairness. Once the laws completely moved to serve a solo purpose to support these in power losing fairness concept behind them, the issue humanity faces is much bigger than a composition of society by beliefs. Who are atheists and what do they want from society? What do they see as humanity future? Largely they just do not care, I assume. Nothing good in such approach, I am afraid. Destroying old system does not automatically bring a better new one up.

    • Hegelman

      As long as Christianity was at the centre of European life the continent was a cesspit of bigotry, anti-Semitic hate, ignorance and despotism. Philosophers like Voltaire and Rousseau and Marx had to battle with the utmost fury to break Europe out of Christian bigotry. Voltaire, referring to the Catholic church, cried, “Ecrassez l’infame!” “Wipe out the infamous thing!”. Europe has got more humane with every year that it has become less Christian. Now we must make sure that Islam does not take the infamous role of the church. We need more Voltaires.

      • too late, your philosophers have paved the way and will bow down in submission only to be slaughtered. And not sure your ‘man-less’ namesake would have agreed.

      • BrooklynNow

        Every year? Wrong. Progress is not always that lineal. The anti-Catholics who implemented the Reign of Terror executed more people unjustly than Louis XVI, Hitler was a much bigger monster than any Holy Roman Emperor, and the victims of Stalin surpassed those of any single Czar.

        But to focus a little closer in time and space and please give evidence if the answer is yes : would the crimes of Rotherham, Rochdale, Oxford …ad nauseum been enabled for years on end in the England of say, the 1950s?

        • Hegelman

          Progress is not lineal but it has nothing to do with Christianity and everything to do against it. Louis XVI was a fat sluggard whose empire sucked enormous wealth out of Santo Domingo, the world’s richest colony, using up the lives of black slaves by the hundreds of thousands. He got what was coming to to him.

          Hitler would have been impossible without two thousand years of vicious inculcation in the populace of anti-Semitism by the churches.

          There would have been no Stalin without the Tsars.

          Britain historically went out of its way to encourage Islamic militancy for its own purposes. In India it backed the Muslims against the Hindus, creating Pakistan. I hope you are happy with that achievement. Britain and the US backed the most vicious Islamic fundamentalists in Afghanistan to battle the Soviets. Another great achievement. So now your own petted attack dog is attacking you.

          • peter the painter

            Yay. And what has Hegel to predict, seeing things have gone in his direction ?

      • 2fishypoliticians

        And atheism has been better…hmmm? Stalin with his 25 million executions and deaths (and Soviet progress being far behind Western progress)? Pol Pot with his millions of deaths (including the middle classes who would have enabled progress) and going back to ‘year zero’ – i.e. agriculture ..in civilisation? Hitler’s 6 million + executions?
        Real atheist progress… not.

        • Jesus Smith

          I think you’re confusing ideology with rationality.
          Christianity, Communism, Stalinism, Islam, Naziism, Buddhism are ideologies.
          The non-belief in superstition and irrationality is not.

          Notice that some ideologies don’t depend on imaginary deities but they still, like theistic religions, falsely represent assertions as truth (aka “faith”).

          • ardenjm

            And you’re confusing Rationalism with rationality and thinking that somehow the former is preserved from ideology.
            It aint.
            Ideological versions of Rationalism exist: Logical Positivism was ideological, for example and had several intellectual blindspots that subsequent thinkers – Karl Popper comes to mind – exposed quite rationally.
            The danger is when an ideology which I’m defining as any political, philosophical or religious belief system that becomes closed-minded and incapable of genuine auto-criticism and auto-correction – gets its hands on power.
            The experiments conducted by Japanese and German scientists during WWII reveal just how grim scientific curiosity can be when decoupled from any moral compass and given power to coerce its victims.

            I’m afraid Hume and the Naturalistic Fallacy are to blame for kicking the moral out of the truncated version of rationality they then bequeathed to us. The Greek tradition saw BOTH to be aspects of the rational and that was wiser.

        • tom rose

          Two mistakes:

          1. Assuming that Stalin was evil because of atheism. The two are unrelated. He was ruthless, arrogant and evil by nature or through the effect of his experiences (or both). Neither religion nor lack of it were factors in creating that monstrous example of humanity gone wrong.

          2. Assuming Hitler was atheist. For an unbeliever he made a lot of references to his God. How did he end up as a bigoted, racist, power-crazed megalomaniac? It is complicated, but there is plenty of information available for anyone that really wants to know, rather than wanting a bumper-sticker answer to everything.

          • 2fishypoliticians

            My point was that the church was effectively being blamed for so much evil. I am certainly not saying that the church has been perfect as history shows; however to imply that being rid of Christianity and perhaps islam as hegelman seemed to ignores the fact that non-Christians and non-Muslims (such as atheists) have been involved in heinous activities too.
            Hitler was certainly much more a follower of atheism than any other belief. His enthusiasm for Nietsche who claimed ‘God is dead’ with the call for people to be supermen trampling over the rights of others and establish their own morality can be seen in his treatment of minorities.

          • tom rose

            I appreciate your respectfully worded reply. It is much more useful than going into an aggressive rant, as so many on this thread seem to do.

            There is the pertinent fact that atheists do not torture, execute or make war in the name of atheism, nor do they claim that their atheism instructs them to do any of those things. If you have an argument with Hegelman about the extent of evil attributable to Christians and to Atheists you should take it up with Hegelman.

            Also, you do not seem to have understood my points.

            1. Whether a person is Christian or Athesist is irrelevant. Christian does not magically make its followers behave well, and atheism does not make non-believers evil.

            2. a) Atheism is not a belief. It is the absence of belief. Think of it like this. Religion is like the liquid that fills a glass. Atheism is an empty glass.

            b) Therefore you can not be “a follower of atheism”. There is nothing to be followed.

            As for Hitler’s beliefs, expert opinion is that Hitler was a deist. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_views_of_Adolf_Hitler

      • bargogx1

        And what exaclty is going to stop that from happening?

      • Leon Wolfeson

        Indeed. Maximum freedom for the maximum number.

        I myself am religious, but I don’t pretend that closing off choice and allowing only acceptable behavior is an issue. Of course, the other major threat today is state intrusion into many moral areas and it’s desired panopticon…

    • JoeCro

      Morality does not require belief in a mythical creator or deity.

      • 2fishypoliticians

        It does require a belief in the source of goodness and reason for following rules. Atheism fails to rise to this challenge.

        • JoeCro

          No it doesn’t. Humanism has morality without worship of a mythical deity.

          • 2fishypoliticians

            You are failing to give a reason for living a ‘moral life’ is, let alone explain what morality is.

        • tom rose

          True morality is not about following rules. It is about doing the right thing in whatever circumstances you find yourself rather than looking out only for yourself.

          History demonstrates that it is possible for someone with a devout and sincere belief in his religion (whatever religion that might be) to be a tyrant.

          So if atheism fails to rise to your challenge, so does religion.

          • 2fishypoliticians

            How do you determine the right thing in whatever circumstances?
            I am not saying that religion always leads to people doing the right thing. However atheism taken to its logical conclusion leads to moral relativism … what’s morally right for one person is not necessarily right for another, and moral confusion results.

    • tom rose

      “Once the beliefs system behind the laws and morals goes, they will disintegrate”.

      I don’t think is so. We have a sense of what is right and wrong independent of any religion or similar belief system. If we did not we would not be able to ignore the terrible things that religious books tell us to do, and cherry-pick those parts that confirm what we already think/feel/believe.

      Besides, the utilitarian value of a belief system like Christianity is irrelevant to the question of whether or not its beliefs are true … although to political types the truth of a belief system is less important than their ability to use it as a means of controlling society to their own advantage.

      In Europe the church used to control virtually every aspect of a person’s life and in those days to be excommunicated might as well have been a death sentence, but I think it is a good thing that those days are long gone … at least within Christianity.

      Other religions might still be stuck in the middle ages morally and philosophically. That makes them dangerous when they can make use of modern technology

      We have a real problem with those religions that embrace backward, harsh, inhuman, unenlightened and otherwise senseless beliefs as to what is moral behaviour and what is not, and think that killing those that disagree with their beliefs (or subjugating them in other ways) is God’s will.

      “Who are atheists and what do they want from society? What do they see as humanity future? Largely they just do not care, I assume.”

      An incorrect assumption I am afraid. Religious fanatics would like to spread the false belief that “Atheists don’t care” and “Atheism is evil in itself” but it just isn’t true. There are both good, caring and considerate people and nasty, selfish, intolerant evil types amongst both atheists and believers.

  • King Zog

    For decades the Anglican Church has been headed by weak, vaguely-effeminate, sibilant men. That’s been one of the major problems. I like Christianity to be muscular and unapologetic.

    • justejudexultionis

      In that case, get out into the street and start preaching the Gospel of free grace and salvation in Jesus Christ in the streets.

      • but you get arrested. Imagine saying Mohammed is a false prophet, Police would be round in seconds!

        • 2fishypoliticians

          The truth is that throughout Christian history many saints who were evangelists and preachers were arrested and too often truly martyred for their faith. By “martyred” I don’t mean killing themselves up in order to murder others, being motivated by hatred of others. I mean being killed because they followed Christian teaching and refused to appease the political chattering classes.

    • E.I.Cronin

      Then this article will cheer you up… there are some Christians left with a spine fortified by faith:
      Call to ban Islam…

      APIA, 19 MAY 2016 (SAMOA OBSERVER/RNZI) – The National Council of Churches (NCC) in Samoa has welcomed Prime Minister Tuilaepa Sailele Malielegaoi’s call to review the religious freedom provisions of the Constitution.

      Tuilaepa had indicated last week that the country’s supreme law could be changed to recognise Christian principles and teachings, not just in the preamble.

      But the Secretary General of the Samoa Council of Churches, Reverend Ma’auga Motu, said he would go a step further and ban the religion of Islam, saying it poses a threat to the country.

      “We are not going too far, no,” said Reverend Motu.

      “We are still wanting our own people to be prevented from this kind of influence, even though there are so many people who are good people but still there are some dangerous people among them who might come and threaten our peace.”

      The Constitution protects the right to practice any religion but doesn’t rule out the establishment of an official state religion.

      A New Zealand academic says calls to ban Islam in Samoa are based on reasonable fears, given what has happened in other countries.

      While some have put the comments down to ignorance and a lack of inter-faith dialogue, Professor Rex Ahdar said the Christian churches in Samoa were simply looking to “protect their turf”.

      “And they harbour genuine fears, and let’s face it, they’re not totally without some foundation, fears about the growth of Islam which they’ve seen in other countries around the world including in the west,” he said.

      “Now you might say well that’s just fair competition, shouldn’t they have to compete in the religious marketplace like anyone else, but again like good monopolists, sorry to use all this economic analysis, they’re protecting their market share”.

      Rex Ahdar said he had met the leader of the mosque in Samoa who he described as a ‘good bloke’.

      Muslims, he explained, generally lived harmoniously in the community.

      Christianity is the major religion in most Pacific Island countries.

      Meanwhile, dialogue with other religions is key to harmony in any society.

      Pacific Conference of Churches (PCC) general Secretary, Reverend Francois Pihaatae, made the comment after calls in Samoa for a ban on Islam.

      Samoa Council of Churches General secretary, Reverend Ma’auga Motu, said the country’s constitution must more clearly recognise Christianity and that Islam should be banned.

      He said Islam posed a threat, despite only 0.03 per cent of the country professing to be Muslim at the 2001 census.

      But Pihaatae said there must be a definite move towards dialogue.

      “To create first that space where everybody can come in and discuss and dialogue,” he said.

      “But they have the right to do the decision but before that we have to first look at what our faith, as Christians, is telling us.”

      Pihaatae said Muslims made peaceful contributions to many Pacific countries.

    • anonuk

      My brother Esau is an hairy man…

      The problem is that the Anglicans have basically given up the fight to change society, believing that they have to match society. What has happened? Fewer people than ever going to church or even believing in God. Meanwhile, the Catholics have had our own problems- and without a close community where the priest is at the core, trusted and loved by all Catholics, what becomes of that tradition? Priests are either seen as Father Ted or campy caricatures, well over retirement, or absent altogether- and that’s after we got rid of the perverts.

    • Callan

      Indeed, when the Archbishop of Canterbury at his ordination was led out of the cathedral by African limbo dancers we knew the Church of England was stuffed.

  • justejudexultionis

    The problem is that Christianity is about to be replaced in the west by a vicious, bigoted, irrational, superstitious Arabian death cult that has no respect for political freedom, free intellectual enquiry or the sanctity of human life. Our freedoms and institutions are fundamentally bound up with our Christian heritage as the atheists and Islamo-appeasers in this country are about to discover to their cost.

    SOLI DEO GLORIA

  • Dominic Stockford

    “Britons are midway through an extraordinary period of social repair”

    Utter tosh. More Biblical (therefore Christian) laws are being broken and overturned in this country than ever before. And how it can be deemed to be in any way positive for one unborn child to be slaughtered every 6 seconds is beyond me.

    • red2black

      You forgot to take contraception into account.

  • justejudexultionis

    Christians must begin to resist the creeping Islamicisation of our culture. If we do not do so, we can expect terrible consequences in Europe and an absolute erosion of our freedoms.

    LIVE FREE OR DIE

    • GnosticBrian

      Throw off the Sky Faery yoke!

  • tolpuddle1

    “The decline of Britain has become precipitous in recent years.”

  • justejudexultionis

    If it hadn’t been for Cromwell and the Puritans we wouldn’t be enjoying these freedoms. By resisting the tyranny of Charles I, Cromwell prevented the establishment of a Catholic-sponsored Bourbon/Habsburg style autocracy in this country. Why do we now seek to throw away these freedoms by giving succour to a wicked medieval death cult?

    • Indeed!

    • Jackthesmilingblack

      Have you ever considered that Brits still divide into Roundheads and Cavaliars?
      Did you realise that Cromwell actually banned Christmas?
      And only some 20 years ago the Sunday closing laws were finally overturned,
      A majority of Brits are hedonistic, irresponsible, not good at details, have a less than serious attitude to work, lack self-discipline, and are shallow and narrow-minded.
      And of course love to get intoxicated in public.
      Wgat’s not to like!

    • peter the painter

      Would Cromwell be for Brexit ?

  • “those declaring themselves to have no religion have exceeded the number of Christians in Britain. Some 44 per cent of us regard ourselves as Christian, 8 per cent follow another religion and 48 per cent follow none.”

    This is normal. However, maybe they should also be asked if they ‘follow’ no religion, which do they most identify with. These days most simply do not understand what Christianity has done for ‘Western’ progress.

    • Mrs Arcanum

      Why? I have no religion nor do I identify with one, even though my non believing parents sent me to a CoE school, ushering me off to Sunday School in order to guarantee a place even though I was never baptised.

      • Why what?

        • Mrs Arcanum

          Why ask about what religion they identify with? It leads to assumptions about the non religious. They may have their own personal belief in god but not identify with any religious teachings. They may be a humanist, or simply just a non believer in any gods or religions.

    • Mrs Arcanum

      Also, one should be wary of leading questions as this further fudges the results. Giving one side or another easy ways of making spurious claims.

      • True but the questions are already leading. Most would assume ‘Are you Christian’ means ‘going to church’.

    • tom rose

      As an atheist, let me just say that I greatly prefer the teachings of Jesus to those of Mohammed, but I have little time for either the old testament, with its vain and cruel God, nor for the institutions of the Christian churches which seem to always have been more concerned with controlling people here on Earth than with the teachings and example of the man whose name they have taken.

  • JoeCro

    The triumph of rational thought over superstition. Excellent.

    • balance_and_reason

      Fat chance; have you read the Guardian or listened to the BBC recently?

    • bargogx1

      I’m not so sure it’s rational thought that’s doing the triumphing.

  • wasteman

    Christianity was never accepted by the European populace it was imposed on them by force.

    • JoeCro

      Christianity and Islam are middle eastern imports into Europe. I would prefer Druidism or Norse religion or the teachings of the Jedi took precedence.

      • peter the painter

        Teaching of the Jedi ? The Jesuits, yes..better than Norse religion – child sacrifices and funerals counted up by how many Virgins are put to death.

        • wasteman

          Thats bullshit they never sacrificed virgins the romans and greeks did extensive chronicling of the celts and germans and wasnt mentioned this only cropped up during the inquistions etc. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bsiGAC7oVl8

      • Fraser Bailey

        I agree. If you’re going to worship anything, worship of the elements and nature makes more sense that worshiping some all powerful deity.

      • bargogx1

        If that’s what you want to worship then go ahead and worship it. Is something stopping you?

  • Bonkim

    Religion is disappearing across the globe as human societies become more homogenised and chasing material Gods.

    Christianity of old as a state religion was more symbolic than real. Human societies needed a religion and God for support. Industry, trade, fast communications, and technology are making religion unnecessary for 21st century man. Where people get carried away by their religion – the Middle East, and other Islamic religions and also recently prospering regions of Asia, religion is more a tribal flag that props up intellectually poor people. All religion is superstition and modern man is beginning to realise he was conned all through history by their holy-men.

  • Jab

    We have globalisation but have no global ethics.Mindfulness has been taken from buddhism and used for self -enhancing purposes but the wisdom aspects have not been talked about much.Trend seems to indicate that humans will continue to seek pleasure and have psychological problems.I do not see much hope really because humans have not evolved in a way which allows them to avoid the enviromental problems they have created and will soon overwhelm them.

  • Jackthesmilingblack

    Test
    “Britain really is ceasing to be a Christian country”
    At last, some good news.

    • southerner

      You are clearly looking forward to us becoming a majority Islamic country.

    • Fraser Bailey

      It would be good news if we were not, as southerner points out, on the way to becoming an Islamic county within an Islamic continent. Religion of any kind is at best mildly bonkers and at worse decidedly evil. And I consider Islam to be the latter.

      • tom rose

        I think the fear of an Islamic takeover is greatly exaggerated. If it is ever tried the backlash will be ferocious.

  • With a Marxist establishment, what is one to expect…

    The Marxist Co-Option Of History And The Use Of The Scissors Strategy To Manipulate History Towards The Goal Of Marxist Liberation

    https://sites.google.com/site/deanjackson60/the-marxist-co-option-of-history-and-the-use-of-the-scissors-strategy-to-manipulate-history-towards-the-goal-of-marxist-liberation

    …and…

    Now You See Me, Now You Don’t!

    https://sites.google.com/site/deanjackson60/now-you-see-me-now-you-don-t

    Now that the truth is out in the open, let’s re-introduce to the world what Christians knew regarding Jesus before that knowledge went down the memory hole circa 1900 (in fact, before 1900)…

    THE DEFT POLITICAL MANEUVERINGS OF JESUS AND JEWISH OFFICIALS UNDER A PRECARIOUS ROMAN SHADOW

    [Part I

    When Nicodemus tells Jesus, “Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher who has come from God. For no one could perform the signs you are doing if God were not with Him.”, Jesus has performed only one miracle – changing water into wine – but Nicodemus uses the plural “signs”, indicating another miracle has occurred. What would that miracle be that’s perceived by Nicodemus? The miracle that would have clearly directed the Sanhedrin’s attention to Jesus’ divine nature would be the immobilization of the Roman garrison within the Antonia Fortress, two of whose towers overlooked the Temple courtyards below; the stationing of a Roman garrison at the Temple (“But on the corner, where it [Antonia Fortress] joined to the two cloisters of the temple, it had passages down to them both: through which the guards (for there always lay in this tower a Roman legion) went several ways among the cloisters, with their arms, on the Jewish festivals; in order to watch the people, that they might not there attempt to make any innovations.”) was to control outbursts of religious zeal that could lead to riots/rebellion. The Roman garrison’s inaction in arresting Jesus and bringing Jesus before Pilate for adjudication stemming from the melee Jesus caused in the Temple courtyards convinced the Sanhedrin of Jesus’ divine origins; the earlier miracle in Galilee where water was changed into wine could have been a clever trick for all the Sanhedrin knew, but the immobilization of the Roman garrison in the Antonia Fortress could not be explained away.

    Part II

    When Jesus immobilized the Roman garrison in the Antonia Fortress, He also had to immobilize those in the Temple who were about to revolt against Rome. You see, when those present inside the Temple witnessed the immobilization of the Roman garrison they would have known immediately that Jesus was the Messiah and therefore would have revolted there and then against Rome but they too were immobilized. The Roman garrison at the Antonia Fortress was situated within that fortress to stamp out the periodic religious themed revolts/rebellions that took place at the Temple, so when the crowd in the Temple witnessed Jesus’ ‘violent’ actions and the Roman refusal to intervene and stop Jesus, the crowd would have revolted, but they couldn’t. This second immobilization – immobilization of the Jewish revolt within the Temple upon witnessing Roman soldiers frozen in their steps – would have been one of the “signs” Nicodemus was referring to when he told Jesus “Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher who has come from God. For no one could perform the signs you are doing if God were not with Him.”]

    https://sites.google.com/site/deanjackson60/the-deft-political-maneuverings-of-jesus-and-jewish-officials-under-a-precarious-roman-shadow

    Marxists had to deep six the immobilization of 500 Roman soldiers during their confrontation with Jesus in the Temple because that was empirical proof that Jesus is the Messiah, just as Josephus proclaimed, “He was Christ.”

    http://penelope.uchicago.edu/josephus/ant-18.html

    In fact, Josephus refers to Jesus as “Christ” (Messiah) twice, the second mention in the title…

    ‘Sedition of the Jews against Pontius Pilate. Concerning Christ; and what befel Paulina, and the Jews at Rome.’

    Time for the Christian take back of Britain.

  • balance_and_reason

    25% of all children born this year in UK were born to foreign parents (not born in the UK)…you don’t have to be a mathematician to show that the character of this country will change materially within two generations…Tony and Gordy have won already.

    • Trailblazer10

      It will be quicker than that.

  • GoJebus

    Yippee

  • Avi Goldberg

    All formal religions represent a huge fantasy that is used to control the population. Wouldn’t the world be a better place to be religion free and let societies and individuals form their own moral code that is built on the furtherance of human rights and respect for others?

    • Dominic Stockford

      No. Which dictator would you like to choose what the moral code should be? For either you’ll get that, or moral chaos, as left to themselves people simply do not agree.

      • Jesus Smith

        This is where the moral coherence of religions is far better because the religious all completely agree!
        … wait …

        • Dominic Stockford

          Like a blind man walking straight into the trap he created himself…

          There is only one true religion, Christianity, and it has a sole source for its faith and practice, the Bible.

          • JoeCro

            What about the Mormons?

          • tom rose

            What about them? Joseph Smith was so obviously a crook and a fraud that I find it mind-boggling that his pack of lies has become a religion with about 15 million followers

          • tom rose

            “There is only one true religion”

            How do you know this? Where is the evidence to persuade non-believers and those of different faith? Your conviction carries no weight with those that do not share it. How can you reconcile this with the equally strong beliefs of at least half a dozen other faiths that theirs is “the one true religion”.

            You can strongly believe something for reasons of your own and you can assert that belief until you are blue in the faith, but asking someone of a different faith to embrace yours, or telling someone that asks for evidence that they are misguided and what they need is blind faith … well … your efforts are going to fail.

  • Bodkinn

    Often the churches have been their own worst enemy. They have constantly made concessions to secularism and in so doing put doubt into the minds of their adherents. One of the worst offenders in this department has been the Catholic Church and its decline in the West has been spectacular. It is not new, within twenty years of Vatican II some Catholic churches had lost 85% of their Mass attendance. Churches which had never had to close because of being constantly in use had to lock their doors against vandalism.

  • H Augustin

    This is great news. The same will start happening in the Muslim world, sooner or later. It’s inevitable. Absolutely no need to feel nostaligic about the ‘good old days’. Those were bigoted times and I hope they never come back. We can and should learn from different sources, including religious ones, but the man of the 21st century does not need a Jewish god from the bronze age to know how to live his life as a decent human being.

    • picquet

      It is very good news. Religions have always been the pillar of support for the poor, ill and dying – states of being common in times when poverty was endemic, medicine rudimentary at best and death came sooner rather than later. It is a support for those living in extreme conditions in places where hygiene and food security are lacking. These are not the conditions we generally live under in Western civilisation (or Eastern civilisation either – Japan has seen a similar decline in belief in the supernatural). Once the world’s population becomes stable and sustainable (hah!) such stupidity will die with the generations to come.

    • peter the painter

      And as atheism grows so does the psychiatry industry with big pharma

      • red2black

        Psychiatrists appear to be a type of priesthood.

      • Jesus Smith

        Perhaps they should start off with Shiva and his consort Shakti and work up to Yahweh?
        Maybe there’s some gym where you can practice believing six impossible things before breakfast?

    • Callan

      “Start happening in the Muslim world”. Are you wandering around with your eyes closed, just like the Archbishop of Canterbury. The Muslim world is swamping the whole of Europe, including the UK with the approval of Cameron and the BBC.

    • MummyofPrudence

      No, he needs the Christian God of love, paternal, filial and as the abstract concept. In his genes he selects for loving kindness. In rearing his children he acts with love, in his compassion for his fellow men he acts with filial love, in all things he reveres love as that which makes us human and civilised. If, in his ignorance, he is unable to recognise that love which makes him man as God, he may still appreciate it and revere it as the supreme ideal of behaviour to which man must aspire. But if men raise their chldren in ignorance of it, without it, for even one generation, it will be lost to man in all but its most animal form and we will cease to be human. Is it worth experimenting in such a way?

    • greencoat

      Better a Jewish god from the bronze age than a bronze god from the rubbish age.

    • bargogx1

      You’re confusing should not with does not.

      As for the Muslim world, it better happen sooner rather than later, since what happens in the Muslim world is increasingly affecting the whole world, and not in a positive way. Frankly, I’m not so optimistic about it happening anytime soon.

  • fred flintstone

    The irony is that this was predicted in the bible 1000’s of years ago. Timothy 3.2

  • Pretty_Polly

    Just because people do not go to church does not mean they are not Christian so the article is rubbish of course.

    Also, just because someone does not declare Christianity on the census form is also meaningless.

    It could well be that they know the government is going to use the census to mislead the public (which is a fact) and so they choose not to co-operate.

    • Dominic Stockford

      If they fail to go to ‘church’ they disobey God’s Biblical command to do so. Is disobedience to God part of being a Christian?

      • Pretty_Polly

        Where does God say we have to go to church?

        • Dominic Stockford

          Hebrews 10:25.

          • Dominic Stockford

            The Ten Commandments.

          • Dominic Stockford

            Our desire to give God the glory, and to join together in singing Psalms, Hymns and Spiritual Songs.

          • Ivan Ewan

            and to bore each other to sleep with the same sermons, the tea and biscuits, the ineffectual priests and the busybodying?

          • Dominic Stockford

            Why is it that people who neither understand something, nor take part in it, are so ready to be unpleasantly derogatory about it?

          • Ivan Ewan

            Rubbish. I went to church for years and got very little out of it, so I stopped going. It was just treated like a social club where people went through the motions. Some good came out of it, but it was easily spoiled by busybodies and control freaks who apparently learned nothing from a lifetime of church attendance. I’m not going to go into specific details, but a lot of vicars have lost their moral authority and will happily ignore scripture for the sake of not rocking the boat.

            I learned a lot more about Christianity outside the walls of C of E orthodoxy, than I ever did by hearing for the twentieth time a speech about the Parable of the Talents. You and the village idiot who upvoted you should think again before arrogantly assuming ignorance from whoever you disagree with.

          • Dominic Stockford

            Dear Sir, I choose to agree with, and seek to follow, God’s Word, the Bible. If that makes me ‘arrogant’, and makes those who also wish to do so ‘village idiots’, then so be it.

            But I know that I am being faithful to Jesus Christ by doing so.

          • Ivan Ewan

            You don’t get it. The person who upvoted you was literally named Village Idiot.

            You also came up with a complete non sequitur, which makes you dishonest, by the way.

          • Pretty_Polly

            No it doesn’t say we have to go to church..

            http://www.wordofhisgrace.org/hebrews1025.htm

          • Dominic Stockford

            Church is the believers gathered, not a building. We are clearly commanded to join the believers gathered.

          • Pretty_Polly

            The words are..

            ‘not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as is the manner of some, but exhorting one another, and tso much the more as you see uthe Day approaching.’

            I don’t see your meaning in those words.

    • greencoat

      That is very true. In these evil days of political correctness and the Thought Police, more and more people keep their real opinions to themselves. I certainly do.

  • Trialia

    It’s about time. For too many years this country’s religious distribution has been defined by millions of people who claim they follow a given religion but who never attend any services outside those for their proclaimed faith’s major holidays, like Christmas and Easter, or simply don’t set foot in a place of worship for anything except naming ceremonies (of whatever kind), weddings and burials.

    If we are finally finding our figures based on people who regularly attend services of any given religion, it is not a moment too soon.

    And if the self-proclaimed religious of this country are at last acknowledging that one does not need to be religious to have morals, again, that is something that’s been long overdue.

    I’d like to see exactly where the census puts individual denominations, though, in relation to the larger world religions, because in my experience my own faith has too often been classified under the Christian umbrella when it’s not been solely or strictly so since the 19th century (I am Unitarian). I know this has happened to a number of denominations that would not be regarded as part of the larger “umbrella religion” by the average member of said umbrella. I just wish they’d clarify. I object to being shoved into a box with 30-odd other denominations under Christianity when I am not, nor have I been since leaving the Anglican church at the age of eleven, Christian. And I’m sure plenty of people in the comments here wouldn’t want me in their congregation either, except to boost the perceived numbers attending.

    I attend regular chapel services – but not Christian ones, as a member of one of the most happily theologically diverse Unitarian congregations in Britain. I am glad to see the country finally being acknowledged as what it really is, with no single religion wholly ruling us. Long past time.

    • Tamerlane

      ‘If we are finally finding our figures based on people who regularly attend services of any given religion, it is not a moment too soon.’

      Who are you to determine what constitutes ‘religious’ or indeed ‘Christian’ for that matter sweets? What astounding arrogance. There are many people, in my experience, who are deeply religious but equally disillusioned with whichever Church they come from, be it Protestant or Catholic. To that end they chose not to go to Church beyond the major religious festivals and observe their religious beliefs privately and in their own own way. That doesn’t make them any less of a ‘believer’.

      You don’t need to to go to Church to be a good Christian.

      • Father Todd Unctious

        Funny how we categorise number of drivers by those who actually drive vehicles. Not those who can but choose not to. Potentially 90% of the population is capable of jogging, but we only count those who do jog as joggers.
        Most religions require some form of regular worship at a place of worship. Simply doing weddings ,funerals and the school nativity does not make one a Christian. It is the regular attendance, not the occassional conformity.

        • Tamerlane

          How ‘we’ classify someone is neither here nor there. Once again for your stunted intellectual benefit, ‘You don’t need to to go to Church to be a good Christian’. Read it slowly this time, maybe have an acquaintance help you. Twit.

          • Father Todd Unctious

            You are such a bad loser Tammy. Have you seen that shrink yet?
            Just calling people twits is not an argument.

    • jeremy Morfey

      You cannot acknowlege one single religion, and the Trinity confuses you, as it does Muslims and even many trinitarian Christians. Yet how do you reconcile that with your Church’s belief in one single God ruling us?

      As a pantheistic Catholic, I got round that by looking at two sides of an apple – one is green and the other is red, but it’s the same apple, and if you’re a worm, an apple may be something hard, brown and shiny that gets in the way of the soft bits. For me, the Trinity is what made us, what was made, and what forces brought it about. Others can tie that in with the constraints of the various human mythologies, and I plumped for one, because I felt at home with it, as you have.

      Those who do not consider their place in the scheme of things are drifting meaninglessly though life, and I pity them somewhat.

    • tom rose

      I like most of what you have to say but think this: “people who claim they follow a given religion but who never attend any services outside those for their proclaimed faith’s major holidays, like Christmas and Easter” needs some comment.

      Festivals in midwinter (Yuletide) and Spring existed long before they were hijacked by Christianity and turned into Christmas and Easter. As a way of promoting their religion this was absolute genius by early Christians.

      But we don’t need a religion to cheer ourselves up in the depths of winter, or to celebrate the renewal of life in Spring.

  • hyufd

    So more people are religious than secular when you include non-Christian religions, just we are not a majority Christian nation anymore. The fastest growth in Christianity is in Latin America and Africa now

  • Bob3

    Well I guess that is another common purpose target met.

    • trobrianders

      Those first four letters of common purpose remind me of another now supposedly discredited word.

  • Dave Leack

    “The decline of Christianity is perhaps the biggest single change in Britain over the past century.”

    Really? Since 1916?

    Representation of the People Act 1928?

    • trobrianders

      You mean the (Top Down, Carefully Managed) Representation of the People Act 1928?

      • Dave Leack

        Are you arguing that (far too) slowly losing our religion has had a greater impact than fairer voting rights?

        • trobrianders

          No I was just being facetious.

          • Dave Leack

            Ah! Fair enough then 😀

          • trobrianders

            I love that quote about the CofE being the religion that does not believe in god but that it’s useful to pray to Him from time to time.

          • Dave Leack

            Gots to be uncomfortable on that fence huh. Probably ought to come down one side or the other. Preferably not the magic-sky-man side.

    • Father Todd Unctious

      The pill, the abolition of hanging, the abolition of conscription, education to age 18, abortion, independent taxation for women, TV, washing machines, radio, private cars, air travel, the internet, mobile phones.
      The decline of christianity is a bit overshadowed.

      • Dave Leack

        Quite so. Each one of those is a bigger “single change” in Britain.

        • greencoat

          No – those are all earthly gimmicks, toys for children, some of them quite wicked.
          Christianity is about the eternal verities of the universe and its Maker.

          • Dave Leack

            Heartfelt thanks! I’d just finished watching a really moving documentary and needed a laugh to clear out the tragedy.

  • edithgrove

    “All Cameron has dared to say, quoting Boris Johnson, is that his faith comes and goes like the reception of Magic FM in the Chilterns” More inspiring leadership.

  • kyle lynch

    Good. Happy to hear that we are no longer relying on bronze age nonsense to govern us. The less influence it has on government and how it governs us the better.

    • Father Todd Unctious

      Christianity is Iron age. 1st century AD.

      • greencoat

        Christianity is for all ages, young and old.

      • Jesus Smith

        It is bronze age nonsense with iron age elements.
        I’m thinking that you know this already but you’re pretending to misunderstand and are lying for Jesus? (Which apparently is a virtue as long as you call it “faith”).

  • Hegelman

    Nobody intelligent really cares about Christianity anymore here. The problem is Islam. When Muslims become about 10 percent of the population and violence is daily feared by those who dare to be critical of Islam and its ways – that is when our freedom fought for against Hitler will have been lost. That is the struggle of struggles that is facing the UK and the West, and no amount of talk about the decline of Christianity is of any importance in the face of it. Sooner or later you all are going to have to pull your heads out of the sand and face the problem of Islam.

    The East European states and Russia are different. They have the wisdom and the toughness of will to deal with Islam. Putin has put Islam in its place in Russia and clearly warned it that any attempt to rebel against Moscow will be met with such a devastating response that regrets will be experienced in Siberia.

    The Hungarians and the Poles are hard as steel in rejecting even one Muslim immigrant on any pretext whatsoever.

    So Eastern Europe is safe. The harsh experience of Communism has strengthened their wills.

    But the West is doomed. It lacks immunes.

    • tom rose

      “When Muslims become about 10 percent of the population and violence is daily feared by those who dare to be critical of Islam and its ways – that is when our freedom fought for against Hitler will have been lost”

      I disagree. That is when the 90% majority will re-assert itself and its huamanist values

  • john

    We can more accurately be described now as a secular nation with fading Christian institutions.

    Dead on! Finally, a Speccie writer sees reality. Maybe fading is wrong word – should be moribund!

  • congreve

    Native Britons are now a minority in their own country. What have Christians to do with it?

    • Father Todd Unctious

      Native Britons have been in a minority since about 750AD when the Anglo-Saxons took over.

      • ossettian

        Still spouting this pig-ignorant crap.

        • Father Todd Unctious

          Have I frightened you into using one of your lame alter egos Tammy?
          FYI. The Britons are the mixture of people living here when the Romans came. So those Basque and Spanish people who built Stonehenge and the Celts from Belgium and France. Their remnants are the Welsh, Cornish, Devonian and sundry Scottish peoples. The Anglo Saxons came around 450 and established a majority in England, the English, by 750. The Vikings left very little trace other than in Orkney and via their Norman kinfolk.
          All these people later becoming the British. The various inhabitants of the British Isles.

      • Sue Smith

        Please return back underneath your rock.

  • carl jacobs

    The atheist triumphalism on this thread is mildly amusing. I don’t really worry about atheism or this inevitable Secular paradise they keep predicting – this golden age of perpetual prosperity where men may anesthetize the meaninglessness of life with purchased pleasure. The Age of the Secular West is coming to an end. Too much self-indulgence. Too much expectation. Too little recognition of what the rise of Asia means.

    The Secular age has made children into a Tragedy of the Commons. Fertility rates hover well below replacement and have for two generations. The population gets older and more demanding as the tasks of family are socialized. Fewer workers support more dependents and require more wages at lower productivity. Just over the horizon lurks China and India with a growing educated workforce that possesses much lower expectations and a determination to work hard. They have every intention of taking what you possess.

    Meanwhile the existential fear of both Islam and the possible loss of demographic dominance is palpable. People notice the birth dirth what with all the “wrong people” having children. But children are time consuming and expensive – competitors for scarce resources – and the secularized population is individually declining the responsibility in droves. Who will staff the economy in years to come? Who will be here to compete with the hundreds of thousands of PhDs being produced in China? Who will maintain the Western World view against alien encroachment? Someone else’s kids, I guess.

    Not to worry, says the Atheist as he whistles past the graveyard. “Religion is doomed. Perpetual Secular Age of Plenty just around the corner.” He better hope so. A population that believes in nothing is sustained only by its prosperity. When the money goes away – and it will go away – the purchased pleasure goes away and reality is suddenly confronted eye to eye. “Life is hard and then you die” is ironic from a position of comfort. It’s bitter from a position of want. So then what will they do? To whom will they turn? It won’t be to Secularism, for that ideology brought the crisis. Christianity is dead. So … where?

    The answer to that question is what should keep people awake at night. The combination of racial fear and harsh economic decline will spawn something malignant and neo-pagan. We’ve seen it before. We’ll see it again. There really is nothing new under he sun.

    • The_Missing_Think

      “The combination of racial fear and harsh economic decline will spawn something malignant and neo-pagan. We’ve seen it before. We’ll see it again.”
      _____

      You’re being a bit harsh on Israel there, strong borders are a good thing.

      • carl jacobs

        Heh. A comedian. Are you here all week?

        • The_Missing_Think

          It’s no laughing matter, have some sympathy, their fear is justified, do you not know about the history of Islam at all?

          Israel needs needs its borders, don’t be so anti-Semitic.

          • carl jacobs

            What you say, whether it be true or false, is not relevant to the future of secularized Europe. The image of European stability is a facade.

            Btw, I’m not Jewish. So if you think you are making some profound point against me, you are not.

          • The_Missing_Think

            No, but you don’t see Zionism Jewish Nationalism as “something malignant“.

            That’s the point I’m making, only white Nationalism is being openly sneered at as “something malignant“.

            Why don’t you ever sneer at Jewish Nationalism? (Strong borders). Why the difference?

            Is it race?

          • Ivan Ewan

            Because he doesn’t spend as much time obsessively trawling through the neonazi blogosphere as you do?

          • The_Missing_Think

            Yeah… sure… strong borders for Europeans, is just so 1930s.

            Unlike Israel’s super strength ones.

            Got your message chum.

          • jeremy Morfey

            Israel, by building ever stronger walls to keep the barbarians out are, in effect, creating a ghetto for themselves.

            Don’t the Islamists know it – which is why they are leaving Israel alone for now. Plenty of time for a siege once the walls are impregnable both ways.

            Have you ever played Go?

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Please, the Israeli government. Not Israel.

            Unless you’re saying you agree with 100% of what the Tories are doing! Oh, and the Islamists are certainly not leaving Israel alone…

          • Ivan Ewan

            If anyone needed corrective brain surgery, it would be you. Do you not remember an almost identical encounter a month or so ago when you also incorrectly assumed that anyone who doesn’t venomously hate Israel must therefore be against national borders?

            I begin to suspect that if you drank wood alcohol your intelligence would probably increase.

          • The_Missing_Think

            Let’s see you back your claim up with a link or a quote then.

            Ohh…. you can’t, because….

            No link = you’re either insane or a liar.

            Or most likely in your case, both.

          • Ivan Ewan

            No link = I don’t like to waste too much time on goose-stepping lunatics.

          • The_Missing_Think

            Sure, borders for whites are evil, but good and holy for God’s Jews…

            You are degenerate twisted hypocrite filth.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Got your Jewhate, no more.

          • carl jacobs

            For better or worse, the British Gov’t possessed a legal Mandate for Palestine in 1947. The FCO threw the problem of Palestine into the UN expecting the UN to fail. It wanted the problem returned to the UK with a free hand to operate. Specifically it wanted the American President to shut up about Jewish refugees. But a funny thing happened on the road to British autonomous action. The FCO turned out to be too clever by half, because the UN created a state. You may not like that, but the state of Israel has the same legitimacy as every other state in the ME. “Zionism” is not the foundation of the legitimacy of the state of Israel.

            Now, since the end of 1947, the Jews in Israel have been fighting for their survival knowing that any defeat will be their last. Perhaps it is just me, but this does not seem remotely similar to the problem facing Europe. What you have in Europe is a rich, decadent, self-indulgent population that was too self-absorbed to accept the obligation of forming families and having children. So they brought in “guest workers”, out-sourced their defense to the Americans, and decided to live the good life of leisure predicated upon the presumption of perpetual Western economic dominance. And it worked for a long time. But now the bill is coming due, and no one knows how to pay it. Perpetuating [that economic] dominance requires certain moral habits, you see – habits that have been squandered over the last 50 years or so.

            The fear of Islam grows daily. There is no culture in Europe strong enough to assimilate them. There is no way to remove them. The most popular baby name in Europe is “Muhammed”. And the indigenous population grows more and more terrified of being displaced in its own land. Meanwhile the Asian tigers rise and rise and rise. It does not take a rocket scientist to connect the dots. Austria is the first sharp thunder crash. The storm is coming again.

            [edited for clarity]

          • The_Missing_Think

            Yeah… sure… strong borders for Austrians, is a dark, malignant 1930s storm on the horizon.

            But still, Israel’s super strength ones are ok, and are needed because of Islam and other known threats.

            Got your message chum, you’re very lucky most Europeans are witless fools, or you’d get into very deep trouble.

          • carl jacobs

            This isn’t about borders. The borders are already breached. This is about existential fear that will lead to a race war. Europe may have done away with religion, but people hold very lightly to a belief in nothing. When that fear collides with economic hardship, bad things are going to happen. Belief in nothing is going to give way in an instant. Some malignant demagogue will step forth and say “I have the solution. I will restore your prosperity. I will erase your fear. Believe in me and in what I will teach you.” And the people will follow after him – right over the cliff in the manner of the Gadarene swine.

          • The_Missing_Think

            “This isn’t about borders.”
            _____

            That’s why the Israeli and Saudi Govts’ have the most radar advanced and protected borders in the world isn’t it?

            The above fact, proves it’s all about borders, and not your wild paranoid 1930’s bogieman ‘sightings’, you’re pointing and yelling about.

            It’s just a shadow on the wall, your eyes mind is playing tricks on you, if you leave the landing light on, the bogieman will go away.

          • AWoLsco

            “But now the bill is coming due, and no one knows how to pay it.”

            That’s true. I don’t even know who I am supposed to be paying it to.
            Who are those mysterious people that we owe money to?
            I don’t even remember borrowing any money from them, or giving anyone permission to borrow.

            If I were one of them I would be getting mighty worried.
            Seems like a silly policy to lend out money to those that can’t pay, or won’t pay it, back.

            “The storm is coming again.”

            From the tone of this post, our man seems to rubbing his hands with glee at our predicament and the prophesied storm cannot come too soon for him.
            It makes me think he might not be one of us , but one of them.

          • carl jacobs

            Just being coldly dispassionate. I find it amazing that people cannot comprehend simple math. If you don’t produce enough children to replace yourselves, your civilization dies. And your fertility rates have been below replacement for over forty years. How long do you think this can go on? Do you think the Muslims in these no-go area enclaves haven’t noticed what you are doing?

            You had better wake up, and soon.

          • AWoLsco

            “If you don’t produce enough children to replace yourselves, your civilization dies”

            Absolute tosh. It, our civilisation and culture, may get smaller….but by getting back into balance with indigenous natural resources, is more likely to survive, than die.

            “Do you think the Muslims in these no-go area enclaves haven’t noticed what you are doing?”

            The solution is very simple….form an alliance with the Muslims to chuck the jews out….then chuck the Muslims out.
            And then we’ll all live happily ever after.
            The jews are the main problem. The Muslims can be got rid of any day of the week.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            There’s a difference between believing in your country and your sort of extremism, that’s why.

          • jeremy Morfey

            This article is about Christianity. They are the forgotten oppressed minority in the Middle East because those in the West daren’t speak up for them, for fear of offending the secularists and being charged with antisemitism and/or islamophobia.

          • The_Missing_Think

            “… for fear of offending the secularists and being charged with antisemitism and/or islamophobia.”
            _____

            I agree on that, race card culture is highly dangerous, and should be made a very serious criminal offence. (20 years to life).

          • Sue Smith

            Bingo.

    • tom rose

      “The Secular age has made children into a Tragedy of the Commons”

      Have you been taking lessons in how to be obscure and incomprehensible from Roland Barthes?

  • john

    CofE has virtually gone – now let’s hope the monarchy and House of Lords follow rapidly behind.

    • greencoat

      Let’s hope people like you fall into the pit of your own pride.

      • MC

        very Christian / islamic of you

      • john

        My pride???
        I’m fighting the powers, I guess you are fully on board with a subservient, deferential position?

        • Fulgentian

          Why fight the powers? Life’s good here. If you don’t like it, move to Syria.

          • trobrianders

            He’d make a good loonyversity janitor.

          • MC

            No! Janitors need to understand basic health and safety issues and take care with dangerous products. wackos like this cannot be left anywhere near children or young adults.

          • john

            Another happy serf. Hint: Life could be better!

          • Fulgentian

            How could life be better?

          • john

            Err – quite a few ways. To stick to the topic:
            (1) we could vote for our preferred Head of State (2) We could vote for our preferred Upper Chamber (3) We could try to achieve equality of opportunity.

          • Fulgentian

            Sounds like America. Just head over there!

          • john

            You mean it sounds like democracy.

    • trobrianders

      Keep parrotting what you think is the progressive line. Hint: Progressives are the spawn of failed west European communists from the 80s who took cover like roaches under the progressive banner.

      • john

        Nutty comment! PS Do you Trobrianders have no info since the 1980s?

  • The Reincarnated Sausage

    In order for the global Marxist revolution to happen, 3 things had to be destroyed first

    1. Christianity

    2. The traditional family

    3. The nation state

    The mission is nearly accomplished.

    • Fulgentian

      Absolutely SPOT ON.
      The decline in Christianity is very largely due to a massive campaign from cultural Marxists since the 60s to discredit it.

      • red2black

        Religious Man replaced by Economic Man.

      • MC

        LOL. Ignorance is bliss, I guess

    • john

      Utter nonsense.
      There are a couple of billion Christians, traditional families are everywhere (with or without benefit of clergy), there are 200 nation states. Clearly, the phantom mission you see is not doing too well.

      • bargogx1

        He did say nearly, and the mission is ongoing.

        • john

          No evidence at all.

  • Duke Amir Often

    We want to be wary of a revival of the Church of England. That could be well umpty.

  • ossettian

    If I decided to worship an invented supernatural entity, why would I choose a Middle Eastern one?

    • Fulgentian

      How do you know the entity is invented?

      • MC

        how do you know fairies don’t control your brain?

        • Fulgentian

          Why didn’t you answer the question? No good answer perhaps?

          • MC

            why do I need to answer your stupid questions?

          • Fulgentian

            Because it’s not a stupid question to ask someone who makes an assertion – here ‘God is invented’ with some kind of reasoning.
            Why wasn’t
            “how do you know fairies don’t control your brain?”
            a stupid question?

          • MC

            rational people know all religions are man made. Arguing with psychotic people who believe in fictional beings is pointless

          • Fulgentian

            Wait a sec – are you serious?
            All you can rely on is ad hominem attack?
            You really have NO reasons to state God is imaginary?
            And you call believers psychotic…
            Please just give ONE reason why religion is man-made.

          • MC

            LOL, you are delusional. You can’t understand simple truths.

          • Fulgentian

            Just one reason.

          • MC

            you mean a third reason, I’ve given you two why getting people like you to understand simple truths is a pointless task.

          • Fulgentian

            Sorry – what were your two reasons?

          • MC

            see, you can’t even understand simple posts. Dim witted religious fanatics need locking up for their safety, and the safety of others.

          • Fulgentian

            It frustrates me that many atheists claim to be the ‘rational’ and ‘reasonable’ and ‘logical’ ones yet do not have the faintest idea what good logic and reasoning actually look like.
            It seems to me you have no good reasons to disbelieve, you simply keep insulting me, thus committing what is known by people who actually understand logic and reasoning as the ad hominem fallacy:
            https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/ad-hominem

          • MC

            give me one good reason to believe in any of the multitude of opposing beliefs: sikh / hindu / rasta / musser / Christo / amish / jewish / etc

          • Fulgentian

            Now you’re talking!
            Although you have provided no reasons to disbelieve in God, I have many reasons to believe in God:
            1. Good arguments
            2. Evidence from his revelation
            3. My personal experience of him

          • MC

            according to religious books god lives in the clouds and satan lives below the surface of the earth: then science proved both claims were wrong.

          • Fulgentian

            Wait a sec matey, where did I mention a book?
            1. Good arguments – there have been many excellent, logical arguments for the existence of God which have been formulated for centuries – you should look them up; like the cosmological, teleological and ontological arguments.
            2. His revelation is ultimately in the person of Jesus.

          • MC

            nut job of the day award: congratulations

          • Fulgentian

            WHY am I a nut job?!?!
            I’ve given evidence, which is what you want, and you have given NONE, except to insult me, which as I have explained, is called ad hominem, to which you refuse to respond.
            I’ll give you one last chance to actually engage with what I’m saying before you are proven to be only a troll.

          • MC

            now I get it. you don’t just believe in a god, you think you are in control. LOL. Nutter A1.

          • Fulgentian

            Go back to troll land.

          • MC

            sure, and you go back to your imaginary world of unicorns

          • bargogx1

            You missed one. I wonder why?

          • john

            Because there are 100s of religions – all believing they are the only true one.

          • bargogx1

            Or all different interpretations of the same thing.

          • john

            No. They are so different it is impossible to suggest they all have the same base. Thousands of Roman gods, 1 Christian. BTW what is the “same thing”?

          • SunnyD

            because men wrote the bible, the gospels, the iliad, the odyssey, metamorphoses etc. when you repeat to yourself “did man make god or did god make man?” over and over the answer becomes clear. and rationally so.

      • trobrianders

        Because everyone knows the entity was invented. It’s not possible for humans, with the way their minds work, to actually believe in god. What you call faith is only ordinary denial.

        • Fulgentian

          “It’s not possible for humans, with the way their minds work, to actually believe in god.”
          Why not?

          • trobrianders

            You’re human. Search deep.

          • Fulgentian

            Is that really the best you’ve got?
            Wow.

          • trobrianders

            You know denial when you see it in others. You also know it’s impossible to shake someone out of it. A person in denial has to search deep and be willing to let it go. You have to do the work my friend. Not me.

          • Fulgentian

            Nope. It’s the one who makes the claim that needs to provide evidence. Think about it – in a court of law both sides need to present cases. You can’t just sit back and say ‘theists are the ones with the burden of proof’. That assumes that if the evidence were inconclusive, there would be no God. That’s not good reasoning!

          • trobrianders

            A person giving false evidence can also come clean if they see the benefit.

          • Fulgentian

            But, to return to the court of law, the judge and jury would need to be convinced that the evidence were in fact false. You need to give good evidence that belief in God is false, not just say ‘believers are clearly delusional’. Even if they were all insane, that would not show that God does not exist. It’s a simple difference between epistemology and ontology.

          • trobrianders

            What experience of denial have you other than the first straw religious folk reach for; denial of the revelation?

          • Fulgentian

            Yes but you’re not understanding my point. Just repeating that ‘religious people are in denial’ (which is difficult to prove anyway) does nothing to show that God does not exist. Even if nobody believed in him, he could still exist, don’t you agree?

          • trobrianders

            You’re talking about a specific deity that was revealed right? he could not exist in either case. There may be a prime cause. Atheists don’t say a prime cause never existed. Are you purposefully trying to confuse the two? It’s a well-worn tactic of the religious when their denial comes under even the slightest pressure. What do you think blasphemy laws are all about? Chopping the head is the fastest way of shutting up speech that challenges denial.

          • Fulgentian

            You clearly don’t understand.
            Something can exist, even if people do not understand it right or even know about it.
            Is that incorrect?

          • trobrianders

            Not in its “revealed” state, no it can’t.

          • Fulgentian

            Why not?

          • trobrianders

            Because there have been thousands of “revelations”, all different. Your human mind could never accept the truth of one over another simply by coincidence of birth. Your own mind stands against you.

          • Fulgentian

            Listen, you REALLY need to understand the difference between Epistemology (what we know) and Ontology (what really exists). The latter does not rely on the former. To say that God could exist even if nobody believed in him is as axiomatic as saying that stars in distant galaxies can exist with nobody knowing about them.

          • trobrianders

            Listen you are avoidiing the difference between a god nobody might believe in and the revealed god that you believe in. That’s disingenuous.

          • Fulgentian

            What is “the difference between a god nobody might believe in and the revealed god that you believe in”?

          • trobrianders

            It’s the difference between a prime cause and a revealed god. You are confusing the two. It’s a defence mechanism for those that are in denial; obfuscation.

          • Fulgentian

            Maybe I was not being clear. I’m not talking about a ‘revealed god’; I’m talking about an entity with ANY of the characteristics traditionally attributed to God – prime cause, omnipotence, whatever – could this entity exist even without our knowledge, and if not – why not?
            And trust me, I’m not deliberately obfuscating – I’m trying to be as clear as possible and if my terms are not clear I will define them.

          • trobrianders

            Nope you deliberately confusing the deist and theist positions. Even if a prime cause were proven that in no way proves the truth of the revelation du jour.

          • Fulgentian

            1. I’ve defined my terms – i.e. the deist position if you like.
            2. We’re nopt talking about proof – I’m still trying to clear in your mind the difference between epistemology and ontology
            3. I’ve already said I am not consciously trying to deliberately confuse anything – hence my honest precious post in which I was trying to show you that I am trying to be as open and clear as possible.

          • trobrianders

            Stop yanking my chain. Do you believe an entity has been revealed? Yes or no?

          • Fulgentian

            My friend it looks like this will be an infinite conversation of cross-purposes. I don’t believe you’re deliberately trying for this to happen. Nor am I – that’s the problem of talking online, eh?

          • trobrianders

            Notice no answer. You’ve been caught slipping from the theist position to the deist position because the deist position is easier to defend. Your “faith” runs not too deep, huh?

          • Fulgentian

            Mate just take the olive branch please. You’ve ignored everything I’ve said about Epistemology and Ontology, so let’s just leave it…

          • trobrianders

            Do you believe an entity has been revealed? Yes or no?

          • Fulgentian

            Do you understand the difference between Epistemology and Ontology? Yes or no?

          • trobrianders

            I understand it as you’ve explained it. Now answer my question.

          • Fulgentian

            I do believe an entity has been revealed.

          • trobrianders

            “I’m talking about an entity with ANY of the characteristics traditionally attributed to God – prime cause, omnipotence, whatever”
            And there in black & white was your attempt to convince me there’s no difference between the deist and theist positions. There most certainly is a difference.

          • MC
          • MC

            your pathetic argument is used in this movie for CHILDREN!
            http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1446192/?ref_=fn_al_tt_1
            This is fiction, the darkness doesn’t take over when people stop believing in the tooth fairy.

      • ossettian

        If the only evidence is “our holy book says so”.

        • Fulgentian

          That’s not the only evidence.

          • ossettian

            I’ve never seen any evidence other than that claim.

          • Fulgentian

            Then you haven’t looked deeply enough into the matter. Look up the traditional arguments for the existence of God…

          • red2black

            Someone must have claimed there was a God before anyone could deny that claim.

          • Fulgentian

            Interesting – what difference would that make?

          • red2black

            I’d suggest that if someone claims there is a God, it’s reasonable to expect to be presented with evidence, or preferably, proof, by the person making the claim – a claim which must have originally preceded any denial of it.

          • Fulgentian

            What do you mean by ‘proof’?

          • red2black

            Something that makes a denial of the existence of God untenable.

          • Sue Smith

            Something to do with rum?

          • Sue Smith

            No, it’s called ‘faith’. What do you think that word means?

          • red2black

            Ambrose Bierce knew better than me: ‘Faith, n. Belief without evidence in what is told by one who speaks without knowledge, of things without parallel.’

          • Sue Smith

            You are speaking about every government in the world!!

          • ossettian

            You’re changing the subject: I didn’t say that “God” doesn’t exist.

    • Sue Smith

      You ask a valid question. Isn’t it a matter of political weakness and handing your country on a platter to inhabitants of another? I’m finding it difficult to find an alternative scenario to explain this INSANITY. Colonization is one thing; handing it on a platter is another altogether. Think of ‘the head of John the Baptist as analogous to what is happening to Europe, the UK and Scandinavia.

    • Give our God Immortal Praise

      Nutter.

    • MahmudH

      The fact that most of the world did shows there must be something to it – whether real or metaphorical.

      • Sue Smith

        Those cathedrals are certainly real, as is the ingenuity and engineering behind them! Transpose that to ancient Egypt where the Pharoahs (spelling) built monuments to THEMSELVES.

        • Brigantian

          You may find that the Pharaohs built monuments to almost everything other than themselves. Their hidden tombs were supposed to be that – hidden – not for people to gawp at in a museum. The origins of choral music and many of the psalms lie in Egypt.

    • Brigantian

      Probably because the Scandinavian ones are just too much fun with their hammers and ravens and things.

  • ANTHONYWILLSON

    This country ceased to be a civil society the day the perverts in the Parliament decided that tyranny is the norm.
    A civil Society is a place Governed by Laws a person does not have to agree with Laws but the day a provable lie becomes Law that place becomes a pace of Tyranny.
    A lie is the same as a deluded belief is something so extreme it can never be true.
    Husband + Wife = Husband + Husband = Wife + Wife that is so extreme it can never be true,
    Cameron is head pervert a national disgrace..

  • bargogx1

    Don’t worry, there’s another religion waiting in the wings to step right in and fill the gap.

    • Sue Smith

      And isn’t that absolutely TERRIFYING. It will make Christianity look like Teddy Bears’ Picnic!

      • MahmudH

        Maybe the world of consumerist materialism needs something more disciplined than wishy washy, C of E compromise, to keep it in check.

        • Sue Smith

          But nobody wants to keep it in check. All the talk about ‘shop till you drop’ and how shopping makes you feel better (not to mention booze and drugs) only shows me how empty the inner lives of modern people really are. They prefer bread and circuses. Sadly.

          I’m not trying to moralize, but I call things as I see them. And I pity those same people who will never know the ecstasy of a Cantata by Bach – one of the vast numbers of compositions from the pen of that devout Lutheran.

          And when I was at mass in Vienna – with the wonderful Viennese – I recalled how none of the great music we know today would have come down to us without Christianity.

  • Sue Smith

    I rather think the dominant belief system in the western world is more inclined to be consumerism. That and huge spectator sports like soccer where you can hear the frightening incantations during the game.

    • Father Todd Unctious

      Yes. They even have vast shiny cathedrals in their Shopping Malls.

  • Give our God Immortal Praise

    It’s not a question of being in a minority or majority because truth is truth regardless. We don’t count heads to determine what’s true! Doh. Hence the fact the author of this shabby anti-religious hate speech drivel is a total dope. Fact.

    • tom rose

      As you have so rightly said, “Truth is truth regardless” and “We don’t count heads to determine what is true”

      You seem to have scored a big own goal.

      Talk about being hoisted by your own petard.

      • Give our God Immortal Praise

        You’re confused, not to mention somewhat mental.

        • tom rose

          I am not the tiniest bit confused. Unprejudiced and clear-thinking readers of this thread will alsosee who is “mental” around here and it isn’t me.

          • Give our God Immortal Praise

            Thanks for proving my point, nutter.

  • Give our God Immortal Praise

    Whatever, everyone knows godless atheist godphobics are like the saddest confirmed masturbatorers ever.

    • Sue Smith

      Come on now, don’t talk about yourself like that!!

      • Give our God Immortal Praise

        You’re confused.

        • Sue Smith

          You wish!!!!! LOL

          • Give our God Immortal Praise

            Everyone can see you must have had your godphobic brain gouged out. Fact.

          • ben

            Lets get this right. So if you don’t like someone who happens to be gay your homophobic. if you think a specific woman is really bad at her job your sexist, and now if you think people who follow religion tend to be hypocrites and fools or people who like to have a cause for their bouts of murder, Your Godaphobic. Awesome got to love political correctness. One day you should ask yourself why are the most politically correct people always the most intolerant to other peoples opinions.

          • Give our God Immortal Praise

            Come again. In English if you can.

          • Jackthesmilingblack

            I’d rather have a bottle in front of me than a frontal lobotomy.

    • Jackthesmilingblack

      I talk to God every other day. The abbreviation of my mate Godfrey.

  • Sue Smith

    If Christianity is on the wane then too bad for nihilists!! I’ve only just started to appreciate my Catholicism since living in Vienna during 2011 and going to Hochamt am Augustinerkirche jeden Sonntag, and this is a larger-scaled example of that phenomenal experience:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZfSju3dPZ5c

    But I don’t go to mass in Australia, because I eschew guitar music and folk singing!!!!

    And I derive most of my ‘spirituality’ from western art music, art and literature – most of it products of the increasing influence and affluence of Christianity and Christian principalities or nations.

    And I thank God every day for it!!

  • Give our God Immortal Praise

    Let’s face it, life as a sick in the head atheist is the same as being a mere animal, and no one wants that.

    • Jackthesmilingblack

      There are a lot of animals I’d vastly prefer to humans. You for a start.

      • Give our God Immortal Praise

        You mad.

        • Jackthesmilingblack

          I sure is. Mad with you.

    • ben

      I think you will find most are actually Agnostic. Basically that means we believe there is a god but your religions that all have pretty sick histories are probably not the best way to find him.

      • Give our God Immortal Praise

        Stop wriggling.

  • Jackthesmilingblack

    Can’t be bothered to sift through the 400 plus contribtions, so cut to the chase. One of the main reasons for maintaining Christianity in Britian today is as a bulwark against fast encroaching Islam. Something of a negative reason. So ask yourselves just who is responsible for the huge increase in the number of third-world Muslins in Britain today. And then resolve never to vote Labour ever again.
    Jack, the Japan Alps Brit

    • Sue Smith

      Unfortunately, voters have short attentions spans and even more limited intelligence. As a retired high school teacher I recall the years spent learning that the vast majority have an average IQ or less, not the reverse. It’s rather sobering, actually, to realize just how below par most people actually are in the intelligence stakes.

      • Father Todd Unctious

        The typical UK adult has a reading age of 11.

      • Jackthesmilingblack

        “the vast majority have an average IQ or less” Hmmm
        Half the population have below average intelligence.
        Students and voters have short attention spans. So true.
        Non-survival of the thickest.
        Jack, well out of it in the Japan Alps

  • WalterSEllis

    So the Rosary is now the official symbol of Christianity in Britain. Must we all say ten Hail Marys?

    • Sue Smith

      Preferable to 5 Hail Hitlers. But you can say that it if makes you feel better.

      • WalterSEllis

        Well, yes, Sue, if that’s the choice – the Führer of the Third Reich or Mary Queen of Heaven. My concern is, rather, that the Spectator, like the Comment section of the Telegraph, is now in the hands of a group of repressed former altar boys who don’t see that Britain has moved on from its ancient adherence to Christianity (in whichever guise) to a settled belief in unbelief. I rejoice in the fact that most of us no longer care to be described as Christian. I just wish we could find some dignified way to protect English churches (i.e. the buildings) from falling into disrepair as well as disuse. Each to his own. Pray if you want to. Just don’t expect the rest of us to offer the responses.

        • Sue Smith

          But I don’t ASK you to pray; I don’t do this myself. I’ve attended mass in Vienna because the ritual is quite wonderful, as is the orechstra, singing, organ playing and the whole service. For 2 hours each Sunday the community is ALL Viennese (no ring-ins), the middle class and all with a commonality of purpose – the inner life. That was so valuable to me that I miss it constantly. Apart from the traditional art music venues in Vienna and Salzburg there are precious few places where the real, genuine Austrian in terms of heritage, religion and culture exist any more!!!

          The younger generation – with some few exceptions of well educated people – are committed to materialism, rock music, the Eurovision song contest and their phones.

          You can see why the Catholic rite remains attractive!! Especially when accompanied by some of the greatest music ever written.

          Sir, I fear England – like other countries – has thrown the baby out with the bathwater.

  • MahmudH

    When consumerist materialism is doing well, organised religion does badly. The minorities in Britain are not doing so well, high rates of unemployment, poverty, discrimination. So they have to turn to community life – which means their religions – Islam and Pentecostalism Christianity – are doing well. Meanwhile, the white mainstream in Britain are doing pretty well, prosperous, comfortable, favoured by an establishment that teaches them they are perfect just the way they are, no need to try to change or improve themselves or their behaviour. They are finding that consumerist materialism suits them very well. So what need do they have for their ancestral religion, the C of E? It’s arcane teachings would hamper their enjoyment of their lifestyle.

    • Sue Smith

      Apposite!! My sentiments exactly.

      But that doesn’t explain how the aristocracy of Austria (the Habsburg Empire) was entirely practicing Catholic and also affluent, protected and influential. Today in Austria it is the middle class which sustains Catholicism. These are one and the same who sustain the Wiener Staatsoper, Musikverein and Theater an der Wien. For many millions more – especially young people – that cultural heritage remains ‘arcane’.

      • MahmudH

        I guess the Hapsburgs didn’t have to deal with instant communication, radio, television, internet. Their ability to discipline themselves and rule their empire couldn’t be transposed on the modern world. ISIS and al-Qaeda want to solve the problem by getting rid of the modern world, which would simplify things, rather like the Amish, but massively violent. That just makes things worse though.

    • Trailblazer10

      What discrimination ?

  • DellerboyNZ

    Extra-extraordinary then, when public atheists like Douglas Murray have to reach into Christian practice to make telling points about Western v Islamic norms, as he did on Big Questions recently.

  • Brigantian

    Back in the 1960’s, Anglicans put their confirmation crosses into their dressing tables the day after the ceremony and forgot about them. Wearing a cross in public was regarded as suspicious: if it bore an image of Christ entirely heretical and Papist. One wonders how the statisticians manage to measure faith as it is a matter of individual conscience. Church attendance may be down but that is because most ministers and priests preach something which is not remotely Christian. Most parents still make the effort to have their children Christened, or as hip vicars now call it: infant baptism. Many who attend a church and wear crosses have never made an adult confession of faith and look baffled if asked to recite their creed. So long as the children attend the right school actually knowing what you are supposed to believe in does not matter.

  • Zhang Wei

    Yes, strictly conscious business everytime

    This here track a special message

    Going out to each and every

    Man, woman and child

    No matter if you’re black, white, yellow, or brown

    Or no matter were you’re coming from

    This here a special message of unity

    For you all to keep comin on

    And comin on strong

    Richard West AKA Mr ‘C’ – 1992

  • Give our God Immortal Praise

    The reality is if anything secularists, atheists and other assorted loonies are much more likely to die out very soon simply because they’re obsessed with ripping babies out of wombs in their state funded death clinics while equally obsessively going for men marrying men and gayism, etc. Thus it’s not rocket science to see such stuff is no way to reproduce yourself. Ha! Losers.

    • ItwasBlairwotdunnit

      I think you’re obsessed, gay boy.

      • Give our God Immortal Praise

        You’re the only toilet boy round here, loser.

    • tom rose

      Religiously inclined people would be more respected if not for aggressive, fact-distorting shit-stirrers like you.

      • Give our God Immortal Praise

        Hate speech.

        • tom rose

          I presume you are referring to your own posts on this thread, because that is the most prominent hate speech around here. Here is evidence from your previous post for everyone to see, just in case you are thinking of deleting or changing what you wrote:

          “secularists, atheists and other assorted loonies are much more likely to die out very soon simply because they’re obsessed with ripping babies out of wombs in their state funded death clinics”

          I can recommend a good psychiatrist that might be able to help you … assuming that you are not just trolling out of some misguided sense of what is amusing and what is not.

          • Give our God Immortal Praise

            Get real, you’re aggressively spouting anti-religious drivel. Nutter.

          • monusdemaanman

            1 Corinthians 4:12-13
            When we are cursed, we bless; when we are persecuted, we endure it; when we are slandered, we answer kindly.

      • monusdemaanman

        I really hope he’s trolling. If not, I’m sorry he’s representing my faith.

    • Jackthesmilingblack

      This internet correspondent is the up-market version of Mad Jock McNutter. Or perhaps …
      That you Jock?

      • Escape from the EUSSR asylum

        Is your name Richard Huckle by any chance, “Jack, Penang” (which is in Malaysia, as I understand it) ?!

  • Giuseppe Cappa

    Not surprising, in a country where the media bombard the masses with the foolish idea that religion derives from intellectual immaturity. However there is hope in African Christian countries where it seems, in addition, that vag1nal s3x is still a widespread practice.

    • ItwasBlairwotdunnit

      A practice also prevalent in Catholic Ireland, often involving priests.

  • David Beard

    The decline of Christianity is perhaps the biggest single change in Britain over the past century. For some time, it has been a stretch to describe Britain as a Christian country. We can more accurately be described now as a secular nation with fading Christian institutions.

    The media have been telling Christians this for the last twenty years or so, while the diversity and multiculturalist crowd get over joyous about every other faith system but Christianity. So it’s no surprise that those few that still do are often reluctant to say so too loudly these days. By the way, what sort of cake is it you wanted again?

    • alfredo

      The diversity and multiculturalist crowd don’t get joyous about EVERY OTHER faith system but Christianity. They get joyous about ONE other faith system, and totally ignore the others.

    • Jackthesmilingblack

      Face it, organised religion is so last season. Make that last century.

      • Robertt1

        Yes, since people act like ancient ignorant savages: tattoos, piercing, weird haircuts, more naked in public, rhythm based loud music, drugs, putting pleasure over reason, etc.

        • Jackthesmilingblack

          Yes, Britain still divides into Roundheads and Caviliers.
          Disorganised, hedonistic, illogical savages that lack any semblance of self-discipline and self-control … but let’s not dwell on the positive.

  • Cobbett

    An alien religion imported from the Middle East….slave morality…can’t die soon enough.

    • alfredo

      Thank you, Herr Nietzsche.

      • Cobbett

        You’re welcome.

    • Ryno Lascavio

      12 years ago I would have typed the same thing. I was a miserable atheist (more like an anti-Christian) who resented the “joy” that I saw people of faith display. Thank God for that day on Hwy 316 why I finally allowed for the possibility of of God. My life hasnt been perfect since then by any means. But when I think about it how I was back then its no comparison. No matter how life challenges me, its always been better with God at my side…and I by His.

      • Cobbett

        Never claimed to be an atheist did I….just not a Christian.

      • Fairly Educated Scot

        But when the Minister was trying to indoctrinate me into his bronze age cult he told me “god loves everyone equally”, are you saying he’s only “by your side” if you believe in him?

  • Yorkieeye

    The Anglican Church in England is partly to blame for its own decline. Since Blair appointed the old hippy the certainties have vanished. We don’t even defend our own faith against Islam, who claim we are a blasphemy.
    My parish priest said she worried about some people she knew as rich people couldn’t enter heaven. The definition of rich of course being someone who earned £10.000 a year more than her (let’s not mention the four bedrooms house that she gets gratis). My understanding of this much quoted mantra is that rich people can’t get to heaven BECAUSE they are rich, they can’t buy their way in. But her interpration is now the accepted one as the church has succumbed to the soft left establishment view of the world. Who do they think will keep the fabric of the church in good order if not their better off parishioners? Who would have given our Lord a burial place if not one of his wealthier followers (Joseph of Aramathea)?
    The tendency towards church going has been amongst the more Conservative of us. We don’t want to be told every week that we are unacceptable because we earn more than the average and then be touched up for large donations for the Vicars latest project.
    We need to return to the beauty of God and his church. I don’t want to be lectured about whatever fashionable Toynbee cause the church is riffing on every week.

    • WalterSEllis

      I look forward to reading Jesus’s new bestseller, Threading the Needle – How to be Rich AND Enter the Kingdom of Heaven.

      • Ryno Lascavio

        I know many “rich” people who are avid Christians. But the truth is most rich people today care very little about their faith, its more about the money (The Lord said we cannot serve two Gods). I find this to be more and more the case the closer you get to any metropolis. But about 35% of the rich Christians I know (mostly living in suburbs and the country) spend every possible moment doing “the right thing”. They dont just donate money and leave it at that, they work hard to find ways to spread the love of Jesus to all and help those in any way possible, many times hiring fellow Christians who need a fresh start. They are Fathers and Mothers FIRST, not bosses. They are honest, open and faithful to their spouses. They spend time with their kids and time with their employees. They pray…openly, and have no shame about their faith. They donate THEIR TIME as much or more than they do their money.
        Honestly, when you meet a Christian like these folks you cannot resent them, you want to be like them, even if its just to be so selfless as constant advocates to the human race. They are an inspiration to all and end up bringing people to faith by their actions alone, living as REAL models of what Jesus desires from us.

      • Jackthesmilingblack

        Also worth a read,
        “Where God went wrong”
        “More of God’s greatest mistakes”, and
        “Who is this God person, anyway?”

        Working on the fourth book in the trilogy.
        Jack, the Japan Alps Brit.

    • Ryno Lascavio

      Not to mention, GB seems to be center of all ideas that form leftist think. Evolution, global warming and a general sense to mock yourself into oblivion to name a few. I got no problem with making fun of myself, Im an expert at it. But it seems that the most vile self-haters are put on the top of the heap GB. To the point now where its a “trait” of being British. Or at least the white population in Britain….especially male.

      • tom rose

        “Evolution = leftist thinking”??

        No!

        The Theory of Evolution is APOLITICAL

        I admit that global warming has been taken out of science and made into a political item, with predictable disastrous results. [i.e we are no longer seeking the truth … what is needed is research that supports what the politicians have already deemed to be the truth]

        As for self-mockery, the world would be a better place if some of its other nations, institutions and religions shared that trait with the British

  • Chris Hobson

    The baby boomers have trashed this country with social and economic liberalism.

    • Father Todd Unctious

      The UKs babyboom was 1958 to 1972, so you mean those aged 44 to 58.

    • Give our God Immortal Praise

      Yes, the godless atheistic baby so-called boomers.

      • tom rose

        Why do you think an atheist would be insulted to be called “godless”. It is correct.

        • Give our God Immortal Praise

          Can you even make sense? No.

  • Prospectpark

    Good luck with the morally relativistic atheists defending your culture once the Islamification of the country speeds up. You’re gonna need it. We’re not much better in America, but at least the millions pouring in here aren’t from the most radical, anti-civilizational religion on earth.

    • Marcus

      At least America, south aside, has one of the tightest immigration systems in the world. The joys of the H1-b visa system, and convincing them that, no, you don’t come from an equally prosperous nation if you’re English. Still, there’s always a quick glance at Facebook and the daily mail online to remember why it was worth it.

      • Trailblazer10

        “one of the tightest immigration systems in the world”.

        Only if you are of European desent. It is practically an open door to the 3rd world.

        • Jackthesmilingblack

          Ain’t that the truth. See above.

  • AWoLsco

    In going back to church I re-discovered a certain peace, tranquility and inner calm.
    At first I couldn’t explain this, then all of a sudden, it hit me……
    No jews , fuzzy muzzies, camel shaggers and tent dwellers!
    At least for one day of the week, I am spared their eternal feuds, bitter enmities and non-sensical squabbles over what looks like God’s most forsaken territory in all the world.

    • Jackthesmilingblack

      “No jews , fuzzy muzzies, camel-shaggers and tent-dwellers!”
      And they call ME a racist.

      • AWoLsco

        “they call ME a racist”

        Och nothing to get worked up about.
        I’ve been a racist, and bigot all my life, but actually get on very well with all the other races and religions of the world.
        One black chap was quite taken aback when I enquired where he was from and what tribe he was a member of. He said he came from Croydon and wasn’t a member of any tribe,as though this was something shameful and to be denied……until I pointed out to him that I also was a tribal member and a proud one, of the fearsome McGeekies of Auchenshuggle( and that ilk) who rejoiced in the pastime of raping cattle and stealing women. Or was it the other way around? I can’t remember. Opportunities for this are now very limited.
        This he found so hilarious, that I almost had to help him off the floor. and he did give me the details of his tribal links back to Nigeria which quite frankly left me open-mouthed and humbled at my lack of knowledge of this mysterious and highly complex country.
        With something near a tear in his eye, he said to me in all seriousness…..
        “You know Mr X, you are the first person, in all my life that has ever mentioned my race and discussed it openly with me.”
        It was a poignant moment…..for both of us.

        • Jackthesmilingblack

          I’m a racist, too. Well, according to a Border Force officer who shouted at me, “You’re a racist” last February at LHR Terminal 5. He then went into a psychotic episode mouthing words that literally made no sense. Thank goodness these goons are not armed. Welcome to the “United” Kingdom.
          My crime? Questioning as to why so many Pakistanis were being used as Immigration officers. Muslims helping out brother Muslims. Border Force stand accused of facilitating the entry of the wrong people while at the same time keeping the right people out. Said wrong people include male Muslims from third world countries who organised the industrial scale rape of British children in Northern cities. Thus it’s relatively easy to make the case that Border Force is unfit for purpose.
          Jack, the Japan Alps Brit

          • AWoLsco

            “a racist, too. Well, according to a Border Force officer who shouted at me,”

            Yes, I saw you write about that before…but it’s well worth repeating.
            However, I wouldn’t have done what you did….not because I disapprove……but because, by an odd quirk of fate or chance, I had experience of the DDR( occupied East Germany) and its poisonous atmosphere.
            Wrong approach, Jack. You don’t take ‘ em head on. You’ve got to come in from behind, like the collie dog…..and be patient.
            Old Spanish proverb…..
            ” If you sit long enough on the riverbank, the body of your enemy will float by.”

          • Jackthesmilingblack

            Interesting to note, that no sooner had I starting to bad-mouth Border Force, using the word “traitors”, than a partial ban on posting on the Spectator was imposed. No proof, but the cause and effect was painfully obvious. And even Guido got in on the act. Spectator and Guido (that fearless advocate of free speech) attribute the responsibility to Disqus. But since when do Spectator and Guido take their orders from Disqus? And seriously, how else would you describe those supposedly guarding Britain’s borders, who facilitate the entry of child rapists?
            Ask me nicely and I’ll post the BF responses (aka lies) to my official complaint, although I was really saving them up for the Daily Mail, who have really got their teeth stuck into BF recently. But even the Mail haven’t quite got around to exposing the use of Pakistani Immigration officers at LHR.
            You know who owns you when you find out who you can’t criticise.
            Jack, the Japan Alps Brit

  • Crinedel

    Well good. The Christian British Crusaders, the Christian British colonialists and imperialists, the Christian British evangelists ruined a lot of the world for centuries with their slaughter of millions innocents who didn’t believe in their way of life “for the glory of England” or some such garbage. Now the Islamists are going to do the same to you. Well, fight back and then maybe both of you will be diminished for the betterment of humanity.

    • Jackthesmilingblack

      Cue Internationale.

      • Crinedel

        Nope, just telling the truth. And those who tell the truth don’t chant The Internationale. Or God Save The Queen (or king or prince or Silent Night.)

        • tolpuddle1

          But it ISN’T the truth.

          & the Islamists will be even tougher on people like you.

        • Jackthesmilingblack

          Have you tried Horst Wessel Lied?
          Even Erika?

    • Marcus

      I fear a more than slight confounding in your argument.

    • mollysdad

      The Islamists are going to wipe you atheists from the face of the earth. It’s only a matter of time before public beheadings replace Dr Who as the nation’s fave entertainment.

    • Olivia
  • Pencil Case

    No cause for celebration. The collapse of nominal Christianity leaves a vacuum for the religion of peace where no one is ever happy and there’s never any peace.

  • Josh Nolan

    TO be fair, the number of people who regularly attend mass or recognize religious dates beyond Christmas and Easter was way, WAAAAY smaller than the number who didn’t for the last 5 decades or so. Frankly, irreligiousness is nothing new at all.

  • John d’auria

    religious polls …on religion…in the West nearly always over estimate the numbers of Christians …esp in the US where atheists -in fact- confess to Xty b/c they think that is what is expected.

  • DelmarJackson

    Organized religion has been at the forefront of wiping out white communities by importing massive amounts of “refugees” and immigrants pushed by the churches and synagogues. The churches promote this invasion tin the hopes of filling their pews with foreigners since the churches are empty from no longer meeting the needs of their parishioners, and always get funding from the government to import 3rd world immigrants to poor communities and then abandon them which then places all the burden on the social safety net of the poor communities. The synagogues are also complicit in their agenda of multiculturalism to reduce and divide the goyim. Organized religion places the social, economic and environmental burden of massive and endless 3rd world immigration on the poor communities all the while wearing a huge moral crown pretending it cares more for the others while ignoring the poor in the communities they are destroying.
    Organized religion has become just another enemy of western nations and are in league with the open border globalists pushing white genocide on all western nations.

  • Diane Dina

    Christ said that the gate is narrow.

  • minymauser

    And you have to wonder how Britain (or any nation like it–USA/Germany/Italy/France/Spain?) would fare in a dilemma/crisis. I don’t think to well. With atheism, there really is no hope-that ideology believes in humanity only. With God–with Christ, there is hope.

  • Jake Carrick

    What is the source for the opening statistics?

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