Features

Referendum rage: a warning from Scotland

2 April 2016

9:00 AM

2 April 2016

9:00 AM

In Scotland’s grittier pubs, a simple rule has long applied: no football colours and no talking about politics. With enough drink, talking about either can lead to violence — and pint glasses are expensive to replace. With an ordinary general election, the prohibition is easy to obey. The wrong buggers might well win, but they can easily be removed at the next election.

A referendum, however, is different. It’s not just temporary — it’s for life. And like life, it’s unavoidable. Socially, as well as politically, there is no hiding place. The Prime Minister is, it seems, experiencing the referendum effect for himself. He can quite happily chat to his opposite number in the Labour party (after all, if it weren’t for Jeremy Corbyn, the Tory civil war might prove ruinous) and he still takes a kindly interest in the remaining Liberal Democrats. But Tories who are fighting him over Brexit? They are beyond the pale. It’s reported that he struggles to make eye contact with them, so infuriated is he by their treachery.

Not that David Cameron will be the only person to discover this. As Scots can tell you, nothing plays havoc with your social life like a referendum. There’s nothing so galling as discovering someone you thought was One of Us is actually One of Them.

Some 97 per cent of eligible Scots registered to take part in the independence referendum, and nearly 85 per cent actually voted. It was all-consuming, all–encompassing, all-everything. In the aggregate this created something stirring: a nation solemnly weighing its own future and determining not just its own fate, but the future of the rest of the United Kingdom. The turnout showed how seriously Scots took their responsibilities as citizens. It was a democratic carnival of a kind none of us had previously experienced. There was something valuable about it and, at times, even something noble.

But that was the aggregate experience. Individual stories were often rather different. For every person excited, enthused and energised by the referendum there was another who found the process depressing, exhausting and even, in some instances, terrifying.


A referendum debate is like an irregular verb: I am rational, you are misguided, he is deluded. In the first instance there were many — particularly, it must be acknowledged, those in the upper-income brackets — who disliked even having to think about the question. The answer, after all, was head-snappingly obvious: Scotland should vote ‘no’ to independence. What a nonsense it all was; why were we even having this debate? Unionist Scotland didn’t want the fight and resented being dragged into it. In similar fashion, denizens of London’s affluent salons cannot fathom why the EU referendum is taking place. The Kippers are revolting but, gosh, this prosecco is charming.

Social invitations, disagreeable in quieter times, become intolerable with the certain knowledge that discussing politics is inescapable. ‘Must we go?’ I’d ask my wife, noting we had ample supplies of food at home. Alas, too often, we did have to, ensuring another evening of half-baked constitutional analysis disguised as a passionate ‘engagement’ with, first of all, the issues and, more dreadfully still, the meaning of identity and nationhood. You’d look around the table and see friends who up until then you’d respected talk the most stunning rot. And they’d think the same of you.

In one sense this was appropriate. The stakes were high: the outcome would affect everyone, from the richest voter to the poorest. But it caused trouble too. You were often surprised. Folk you assumed would vote one way would express the opposite preference. For unionists, in particular, such discoveries could be disconcerting. It began to seem as if the game might indeed be up. The steady accumulation of anecdote began to feel something like data.

Of course, you would agree to disagree and you would maintain a veneer of politeness, but beneath the surface you began to wonder if these people had succumbed to some kind of intellectual virus or if they had always been like this and you just hadn’t noticed.

If truth is the first casualty of referendums, friendship is the second. One pal admitted ‘defriending’ most of her yes-voting Facebook chums and only reluctantly granted her yes-supporting brother a reprieve. All across Scotland there were families divided by the national question. Unlike previous conflicts, there was no way of taking out insurance, no way to hedge bets — no modern version of the old Highland ploy of sending one son to fight for the Jacobites while enlisting another in the government’s army.

There were many mixed marriages in which one party voted ‘yes’ and the other ‘no’. Some were even happy marriages, in which both parties cast their ballots out of conviction — not just to spite and thwart their spouses. Anglo-Scottish marriages felt the strain most severely. ‘I’m leaving Scotland if it’s “yes”,’ one English-woman of my acquaintance told her independence–supporting husband. ‘Fine,’ he replied. ‘I’m not.’ From that point on, they agreed a qualified peace. But it’s hard to have to treat even the breakfast table as a demilitarised zone.

When it comes to the EU referendum, you can expect more of the same, particularly if your spouse hails from another country in the union. Marriages may well be tested when one person’s vote to leave will — in some mysterious, inchoate, sense — be perceived as a repudiation of the other’s identity. ‘So you’re just not into Europe, are you? Well, what about me?’ And then there will be a silence and a tacit agreement to speak no more of these matters… It’s politics, of course, but not as we know it.

Speaking of referendums, you are either ‘yes’ or ‘no’, ‘in’ or ‘out’, and there’s no way of bridging the divide. There is no room for compromise and it is winner-takes-all — with not even a consolation prize for the vanquished. Which is why, in the end, the best way to survive a referendum is to say nothing at all.

Alex Massie is the Scotland editor of The Spectator.

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Show comments
  • Christian

    EU is in its death throes: it’s broken, and it can’t be fixed – can you imagine another treaty being agreed? If we don’t get out now, then we’ll be out before long anyway so the stakes really are nothing like what they were in Scotland.

    • Edward Smith

      I wouldn’t be so certain. We can’t be complacent about this.

      In any case, if it implodes while we’re in it, it will do untold damage to this country.

      We must all get out there and vote to leave, and we must tell everyone we know to do the same.

      • It wont implode it will only ever get more centralised because the solution to each and every EU issue is more EU.

        • JoeCro

          The united states of Europe. I would sign up for that.

          • Mary Ann

            It’s the way forward, the grown up way forward.

      • Mary Ann

        It’s the inners who are meant to be the scaremongerers, the Euro is doing better than the pound, the EU isn’t going to collapse anytime now.

    • Mary Ann

      That’s why the Euro has been going up against the pound for the last 3 months. 3 months ago you could get 1.43 Euros for your pound now you can only get 1.25. Doh.

  • Bonkim

    EU will self-destruct soon – the Referendum is totally unnecessary.

    • Edward Smith

      Yes, probably.

      But in any case better to jump of the titanic before it hits the iceberg.

      A remain vote would be devastating though. It would be taken as an endorsement of the federal project.

      • Bonkim

        also Britain’s weakness and will be detrimental to all future negotiations – and Britain outside the core Euro-zone will be constantly skirmishing with a Federal Europe – being in does not mean being integrated with Europe.

  • Yorkman99

    My fear is that the EU will morph into something far worse than any of us can imagine.

    • scott_east_anglia

      Luckily, thanks to American generosity, teh European states have so run down their armed forces that a prolonged war between European powers is not possible. The protagonists would run out of hardware in days.

      • camjan2

        You only need 10 minutes with the right weapons

    • irina palm

      Fear never gets you anywhere. Believing and then doing does.
      Fear is no motivator in a civilised society. In today’s globalised and competitive world, fear will lose every time. Only positive visions ever win in the long run.

      • whorya

        It does if its the powers that be are instigating it. As in their propaganda for remaining in the EU…..

    • JohnnyNorfolk

      It has already.

    • whorya

      It has been doing that, since conception. Have you not noticed. You are “only” allowed to vote for the powerless meps. But not the Dictators of the (Commission). The ones that make the decisions, that we have “NO” power to speak against, no voting them out, no redress what so ever.
      Now your statement: “My fear is that the EU will morph into something far worse than any of us can imagine”. That is exactly what us “Outers” fear. And why Brexit is the only way to save our freedom.

      We would rather struggle for a few years “If” necessary. Than in the future have to fight a bloody revolution, to regain our freedom.

      An “in” vote will give this un-democratic, (Commission) a mandate to do exactly what they want to do. As you have noticed with our governments. But our governments can be voted out. THIS DOES NOT,AND WILL NOT APPLY TO THE EU, (Commissariat).

      Vote out for yours and your children,s future.

  • Jim Hunter

    A referendum is for life? Tell that to the Irish when they voted against NICE1 and Lisbon, the Danes as well. We may well vote to leave the ever looming dystopia that is the EU, but its like the Hotel California, you can check out but never leave.

    • whorya

      Once checked out. There is nothing they can hold us to, We are still in NATO, We are still in the UN, “Unfortunately” and the WTO. And that organization is to stop, any organizations “EU” or countries, “restricting trade”. The EU use it now for their means.
      We will use it upon leaving. Not only will they lose our contributions, but they will be punished by the WTO. All we need at that moment is a PM with a believe in his country. And a backbone for the battle. Not David Cameron…..

  • Tom

    It’s true this is a one off opportunity to leave the EU my only hope should it go the other way is the EU looks to be on its legs and a question of time before it implodes.

    • Alisteir McLaurin

      There are signs of desperation by those wanting to remain. Please see above.

  • Alisteir McLaurin

    For some time, the Daily Telegraph website has not allowed comments on EU topics. Commentators evaded this by simply writing about the EU on other threads. Now, no comments on any topic are allowed on the Daily Telegraph website. Incredible.

    • scott_east_anglia

      They appear to have re-designed the web site and launched it before it was ready. This morning it looked like it had been done by a school kid.

      The age and type of browser used affected the experience – another indication of amateurism.

      It seems to have got off to a bad start, but it is improving slowly..

      • Alisteir McLaurin

        Their slow improvements make a snail look brisk.

      • bab_el_mandeb

        Thanks for that information, I was wondering WTF was going on when I went on the site a while back.

      • Muireach MacGilleChaluim

        Amusingly enough, the “new style” is so badly coded it completely falls to pieces on certain browsers. Clearly the work of unpaid interns or cheap Indian coders.

        • Glenmoriston

          You don’t “code” a browser it’s a scripting language.

          • Muireach MacGilleChaluim

            The webpage in question is stuffed with Javascript which is definitely coded. Er, and surely you mean “web page” instead of “browser”?

      • The_Common_Potato

        I made a tongue-in-cheek comment on the DT yesterday: “We the upvoters request that consideration be made regarding the resurrection of the reader comment facility on most if not all Telegraph articles.”

        I had no idea that comments were to be closed 24 hours later.

      • Steed

        And the images are of such a low resolution that often you just can’t see the detail.

        I’m actually going to take out a subscription to the Times now.

    • Edward Smith

      It’s a disgrace.

      The comments were the only thing that made bearable the nonsense it so often published.

      • Alisteir McLaurin

        I wonder how may will defect to the Spectator just for somewhere to confer. By the way the City AM has space for comments – it just moderates any out of existence.

        • eat your greens

          You, Alisteir McLaurin, and he, Edward Smith, both not exactly known for their regular contributions on that website in question, are wondering about these things? Well, if that’s not pure, 100% leftard poppycock right here, then what is.

        • JohnnyNorfolk

          I have.

        • JohnnyNorfolk

          Will I never be able to read Grumpy Old Fool and peddytheviking again.!!

        • Mary Ann

          Yes, I got moderated for expressing pro EU views.

          • hobspawn

            No, you were moderated because you’re a loony.

    • Dacorum

      I totally agree and I posted a comment on a very recent DT thread saying I would be spending time on the Spectator site. I hope others do so as well and so boost traffic on this site.

    • Steed

      I find myself spending far less time on the Telegraph as a result. Often the best thing printed on the page was in the comments section.

    • JohnnyNorfolk

      I wonder when the DT will change its name to The New Guardian.

      • BritishPatriot

        Have you tried the websites “Going Postal”, “Breitbart”, and “Morgoth’s Review”? I think you might find them appealing alternatives filled with right-minded people (if you know what I mean).

        • Mary Ann

          That would be dreadfully boring, nothing worse than a site where everyone agrees with everyone else, you learn nothing new.

          • hobspawn

            Better than a sensible conversation relentlessly derailed by a discursive vapid troll-bot.

          • BritishPatriot

            Johnny is incapable of learning anything whatsoever. The poor old fellow would be happier among his own kind.

      • Mary Ann

        Ha Ha Ha

    • Jackthesmilingblack

      When avenues for peaceful protest are blocked, the bombing begins.

      • BritishPatriot

        Not the English. The English have been so beaten down by the establishment over the centuries they will willingly acquiesce to anything.

        • whorya

          Not when it becomes a civil war. I hope that scenario will be avoided. By a Brexit….

          • BritishPatriot

            Sadly, it’ll never happen. The turkeys will vote for Christmas and we will remain in the EU, and even if they don’t vote for Christmas the results will be suitably “adjusted” in any case.

        • Mary Ann

          No, the English have been browbeaten by all those johnny foreigners and are planning to run away and pull up the drawbridge.

    • Child_of_Thatcher

      They will suffer because many people will just stop reading it. One of the reasons I went there was a delight in seeing their band of elitist writers of minimal intellect ( Norman Tebbit and a few others excepted) put in their place by excellent comments.

      • Alisteir McLaurin

        Is this topic inspiration for a Spectator article I wonder?

    • Mary Ann

      I did recently read an article in the Telegraph mentioning the 2.7 million EU migrants living in Britain and totally ignoring the 2.2 million British migrants living in the rest of the EU. You cannot trust the Telegraph to show the true picture.

      • hobspawn

        Please stay there when the drawbridge is raised.

  • Sargon the bone crusher

    Oh I DO hope the dreadful wodies clear off sooner rather than later. Then they will depopulated faster, and the empty land and abandoned towns and cities will be conquered by the Anglo Saxons and there will be lebensraum in the extreme north – English style.

  • scott_east_anglia

    Referendums always stir up trouble.

    Labour’s fate in Scotland is like a sword of Damocles hanging over the Tories.

    If the ‘remainers’ win then the disgruntled ‘leave’ rump have UKIP to vote for at the next election. The result could be cataclysmic for the main parties, as it was for labour in the Scottish Lowlands.

    On the other hand, should the ‘leave’ vote carry the day, the ‘remainers’ do not have an equivalent outlet to vent their frustration.

    I’m surprised so many Tories are in the ‘remain’ camp, since if they win they will probably be out on their ear at the next election.

    • Its hard to see the Tory’s surviving past June 24th.

      • Tom Cullem

        Not if the LEAVE vote prevails.

    • Frankfurt 13

      “On the other hand, should the ‘leave’ vote carry the day, the ‘remainers’ do not have an equivalent outlet to vent their frustration.”
      They could vote Lib Dem…
      HAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHA!!!!

      • Ridcully

        Now that was funny.

    • Tom Cullem

      I think you are correct and UKIP will be the huge beneficiary of a successful REMAIN vote, especially if the vote is closer than expected. Re the Tories being out on their ears: Cameron will have been seen to win a major, if pyrrhic victory if the vote is close and Tory and Labour OUT voters decamp to UKIP, certainly. But if the alternative is Corbyn, I am not so sure that will hold up by 2020. I have said many times and repeat it here again, that Corbyn and Labour have passed up the greatest political opportunity in a generation by not backing BREXIT. By doing so successfully, they would truly deal a lethal blow to Cameron and the Tories. By not doing so, and continuing to handcuff themselves to their obsession with internationalism, they consign themselves to being seen as part of the problem by the disgruntled on either side.

      • Keith Muir, Edinburgh

        Will be beneficiary until people actually get a look at UKIP organisation and decide its a shambles and take their vote elsewhere.

        • Grimsby resident

          I don’t think that matters at this stage. Everything will flow from a re-alignment of the political parties. I imagine a new name will be found for a centre right party which would include UKIP and a forceful party will emerge to ruin the tories (liberals) We should vote UKIP for now though to press for change.

          • Keith Muir, Edinburgh

            Problem with that is that UKIP amateur night meeting a professional political party will just end in disagreement. So no kippers are amateurs and they always will be cos that is how they like it.

  • Everyone voting SNP in Scotland is voting to stay in the EU as that’s what drones do, Sturgeon’s told them she will be making the ‘positive’ case for the EU at some yet undefined point in the future and the drones seem happy with that but as the OUT side are going to lose a guaranteed 1.4 million votes to the drones we can take comfort in the fact that the Borg Queen is going to be telling the rest of the UK what to say and think and that is only going to add millions of ordinary English people to the OUT vote.

    • AtMyDeskToday

      “Everyone voting SNP in Scotland is voting to stay in the EU as that’s what drones do”

      Certainties are definitely not something that you in particular should bet on Mick. Here’s me an SNP member on the OUT side to prove the point. You’re not very good at this as your past posts have proved. Best to give up.

      • There is the exception to the rule, best keep quiet about it though as they’ll have you in for reprogramming.

        • Itinerant

          He’s actually right, some of my SNP sources tell me there’s a simmering discontent among members over the EU, it’s just not been articulated (nor is likely to be) by the SNP leadership.

          • A drone rebellion, cant see them ever doing anything other than muttering under their breath in a room by themselves though.

          • Itinerant

            Sadly, you’re more than likely correct- the pressure to follow to accepted narrative is fierce in pc Scotland, under the ShariaNP.

      • Tom Cullem

        Posters from north of Berwick on the Guardian have been stating for some time that EU resentment is quietly building and there are more OUT voters there than one suspects. Probably not a majority, but more numerous than general wisdom suspects.

      • Dacorum

        I have never understood why the SNP is in favour of independence from the rest of the UK and yet, on leaving the UK, wishes to surrender their independence to the EU where Scotland would have far less independence and control over Scottish affairs than if they remained in the UK.
        Can you explain the paradox?

        • morbidfascination

          Because the independence thing is really about hating the English, not about sovereignty.

          • AtMyDeskToday

            You feel hated do you. I can understand that in your case.

          • Jackthesmilingblack

            Why does everyone take an instant dislike to me?
            It saves a lot of time.

        • AtMyDeskToday

          Easy. In an independent Scotland the SNP is only committed to holding a referendum on joining the EU. They have to win it. It’s called democracy.

          • Dacorum

            “Easy. In an independent Scotland the SNP is only committed to holding a referendum on joining the EU. They have to win it. It’s called democracy”.

            Sorry, but you are deluding yourself because that is not SNP policy!

            Here is their policy:

            “The SNP believes that membership of Europe Union is in Scotland’s best interests. There are a huge number of benefits for Scotland from EU membership including that the EU is the main destination for Scotland’s international exports and as citizens of the EU we are able to travel freely throughout Europe – for work, study or travel – without the need for visas.The SNP doesn’t believe the EU is perfect and agree that it needs reform but the SNP wants Scotland to have a louder voice in Europe – an increased contribution to EU policy making and an opportunity to be part of discussions about reform, rather than becoming even more distant by removing ourselves altogether”.

            There is therefore NO mention of holding a referendum before joining the EU.

            Furthermore, SNP policy is to oppose holding a referendum on UK membership of the EU. Sturgeon said on 15th April 2015 that “The party opposes a referendum on EU membership which it says is “good for business”. The SNP does not believe in democracy over EU membership.

            The extent of the SNP sell out of Scottish interests was revealed in Salmond’s Bruges speech in 2014 when he said:

            “Scotland’s vast natural resources and human talent make it one of the lynchpins of the European Union”.

            “Our huge energy reserves, our economic and financial contribution, our fishing grounds, our academic, cultural and social links, and our commitment to the founding values of the European ideal place us at the very heart of the EU”.

            “One of the great issues facing Europe is the question of energy security. In this area Scotland is blessed. We have a key role to play in providing energy security for Europe, and in developing the low carbon technologies the world will need for the future.”

            He also said: “Scotland has fully 25% of Europe’s offshore wind and tidal potential. We have ten per cent of the EU’s wave potential. We have 60% of the EU’s oil reserves. But our importance to the European Union stretches further”.

            “As one of the wealthiest countries, Scotland is a net financial contributor to the EU and will remain so as an independent member. We have more top universities, per head, than any other member of the EU and our academics collaborate with partners across Europe.

            “We have one of the largest national shares of Europe’s total fishing grounds and 12 national fleets fish in our waters. The EU’s fisheries policy would unravel without Scotland.”

            By this speech, Salmond showed himself to be a grovelling Quisling, kowtowing himself to the EU and begging to be allowed to give up all Scottish resources to them! He didn’t even want to retain control over Scottish fishing stocks!

            So wouldn’t you now agree that the SNP has absolutely no intention of holding a referendum before an independent Scotland joins the EU should Scotland ever achieve separation from the UK?

          • AtMyDeskToday

            Excellent job of cutting n pasting. As to your question…

            “So wouldn’t you now agree…”

            Answer… no.

          • Dacorum

            Excellent job by you of avoiding reality!

            I cut and pasted in order to demonstrate that I was right – I didn’t want you to think I was making it up!

            What is your excuse for not now agreeing with me when I have proved my case?

          • AtMyDeskToday

            As an SNP member I am aware of policy, which is as I stated in an **independent** Scotland. Now get back to your homework before mummy catches you on the net.

          • Dacorum

            Your excuse for not agreeing with me is that you are a deluded fool, given all the evidence I have provided to prove my case whilst you have provided absolutely nothing to substantiate your contrary view that the SNP is committed to holding a referendum on EU membership as you stated in your first reply to me.
            I hope for your sake that you are better at your job than understanding SNP policy!

          • AtMyDeskToday

            Have no worries about me sonny boy. Look to yourself.

          • Dacorum

            I’m fine. It is you I am worried about!

        • Jambo25

          Possibly because a lot of people, up here, trust the EU more than Westminster.

          • Dacorum

            “Possibly because a lot of people, up here, trust the EU more than Westminster”.

            Now that IS simply insane! The EU eats small countries for breakfast – just look at the way they have screwed Greece, Cyprus and Ireland. Big ones like Italy and Spain haven’t fared much better either. Just compare their treatment to the privileged treatment Scotland has within the UK with free prescriptions, university fees etc, all paid for by the UK taxpayers as a whole!

          • Jambo25

            How has Wales fared recently. Which body might have defended the Welsh steel industry from its impending destruction? Which body blocked the defence of the Welsh steel industry in its insane desire to remain China’s bestest pal in the EU and get its wholly uneconomic and insane nuclear power station built? Do I trust Osborne to look after my interests? No! I’d rather trust the Germans despite their recent, abysmal treatment of the Greeks.

          • Dacorum

            You’re right: Osborne is not to be trusted and neither is Cameron.

            However. as members of the EU any government is extremely limited in what it can do to help a struggling industry like the steel industry. Firstly, state support/subsidies, for example, is against EU rules and secondly we cannot simply introduce a high tariff to prevent the dumping of Chinese steel as the USA did. My understanding is that the USA, an independent country on trade matters unlike us, imposed tariffs of well over 200% on Chinese steel in just 45 days whereas it takes the EU well over a year to do so. I also understand that the tariffs the EU were proposing were in the order of 9% and that they would not make any difference as they were far too low

            Where Osborne could make a bit of a difference is on energy costs. Steel faces very high energy costs because of idiotic policies relating to global warming that makes our energy costs for steel more expensive to produce than anywhere else in Europe. He should have cut those costs when the price of steel fell. It is these same idiotic global warming policies that gave rise to the huge growth in dirty diesel cars that have greatly added to pollution throughout the UK from diesel particulates and NOX. The silence from the government in taking action against VW and the other diesel car manufacturers is nothing short of scandalous. However the problem is not just this government’s policies on energy because all the other main parties have very similar energy policies that greatly damage heavy British industry and also our health!

            The British steel industry can only be saved if we weren’t in the EU and if we were led by politicians who actually had the interest of the nation at the heart of their policies. Such a government would be able to impose USA style tariffs on Chinese steel imports in just 45 days and would cut the energy costs of British steel and if necessary also subsidise or nationalise the industry to protect a strategic industry from closure from a short to medium term glut in production. But sadly that won’t happen in time to save Port Talbot.

          • Jambo25

            It was elements within the EU which probably wanted to defend European steel. It was the UK government which consistently blocked EU attempts to impose tariffs on Chinese steel.

          • Dacorum

            So it appears. The news that the government has simply shrugged their shoulders about the Chines imposing tariffs on our steel shows just a hopeless bunch of traitorous, untrustworthy incompetents we have leading us!

            I was listening to some fool from the Adam Smith institute on Radio 4 this morning who said the problem was not the cheap price of Chinese steel coming here but over capacity in China. He seemed to think it was perfectly okay for China to reduce their over capacity by dumping their over production on us at less than cost price and destroying our steel industry in the process! With idiots like him in a position of influence, what future does this country have?

          • Jambo25

            I think people in the UK have to face up to the fact that many in our ruling political and economic elites appear to have little or no loyalty to the British people or British state. Its now being reported that Cameron’s father set up mechanisms in co-operation with Mossack Fonseca to hide wealthy peoples’ money from taxation. Mossack Fonseca, it now transpires, took steps to prevent proper investigation into the Brinks Mats robbery. Think of that. The PM’s father dealt with a company which aided British armed robbers in order to help wealthy people avoid tax.

          • Dacorum

            It has been apparent to me for a long time that “many in our ruling political and economic elites appear to have little or no loyalty to the British people or British state”. As to Mossack Fonseca, the political fallout from these revelations over the next few weeks and months will be interesting.

            The referendum at least gives a chance to kick the political and establishment elite where it really hurts by voting to leave the EU.

        • chasdf

          Because the SNP hate England. They don’t mind being in a union with other countries, just not England.

        • Itinerant

          The SNP and Edinburgh political class just want their own carriage on the EU gravy train.
          There’s no such thing as an “independent nation-state” in the EU, the SNP leadership are telling the Scots big lies.

          • Dacorum

            Yes, the SNP are selling out Scotland for their own 30 pieces of silver on the EU gravy train.

      • Yorkman99

        I hope there are a lot more like you.

      • Grimsby resident

        But you are in a tiny minority surely? If not, accept my apologies.

    • MikePage

      I can’t see an independent Scotland being a net contributor to the EU; why wouldn’t they want some of that gravy?

      • Why then would the EU want them? Perhaps that’s why the EU told then to go……….

        • John M

          And that was when oil was $100 / barrel…

        • Muireach MacGilleChaluim

          For the same reason that the EU wanted the former Warsaw Pact nations?

          • To antagonise Russia?

          • Muireach MacGilleChaluim

            Did it, though?

    • Mary Ann

      Of course there are the 2 million Britons living in Europe, any one of them who votes to leave will be a complete idiot, as will anyone who dreams of working or retiring to France or Spain.

  • MikePage

    It might be a problem if I knew a single person who wants to Remain.

    • Mary Ann

      May I introduce myself and all my friends.

  • John M

    That is – by a long way – the most considered opinion piece I have read so far about the EU referendum.

    Watching the absolute chasm between the political classes and people across the country is saddening. Perhaps the outcome will lead to real change. Never has the disinterest, arrogance, condescension and disregard of the Political parties for the voting electorate they are supposed to represent been so glaring as it is at the moment

  • Richard

    How long do you think it’ll be before Labour applies – as Wilson did initially – to get into the club? Two elections in a row, and they’ll have brought in so many more Third World immigrants to vote for them that their winning elections forevermore will be an dead cert.

    You know all those people you saw streaming towards Germany at the invitation of Mutti Merkel? Blair brought in about three times as many non-EU during his interregnum, and treated with contempt, as Merkel is doing, any opposition, and ignored every single poll that showed nobody wanted it. Labour will get the EU to fast-track the UK back in, no doubt about it.

    People in the UK now (note my wording) have no interest in the UK being its own country. In fact, they are actively hostile to the idea.

  • Tickertapeguy

    One significant group left out of this article are the incoming refugees who have no stake if Scotland stays with England or not.

    If they do it may lean toward maintaining a status quo after having experienced a lifetime change themselves. they may also fear the nationalism of Scotland working against them.

    then when there are more refugees who have the right to determine the fate of Scotland the voices who want independence will grow dimmer. Is that a sufficient enough reason to break free of the decisions made in London that impact Scotland? yes.

    • Glenmoriston

      The Poles fought for decades for Poland to join the EU so the prospect of Scotland breaking away from UK and therefore out of EU led them to overwhelmingly vote NO in the indyref despite efforts by the SNP to curry favour with them.

      The other voter group – the incomers (~500,000) – voted overwhelmingly NO and almost certainly swung the vote in the NO favour. Most of these people were English so one could say the English residents settled the outcome. The SNP group know this but could never,ever utter
      it in public.

      http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/independence-referendum-figures-revealed-majority-5408163#tjsgzQyuiruJEKr1.97

      • Tickertapeguy

        Interesting. One thing I noticed of comments made by (I assume) English commenters regarding Scotland is a sense that Scotland “belongs” to the United Kingdom. that the Union forged between Scotland and England 300 years ago is now treated as if Scotland was “auctioned” off to the highest English bidder and Scotland should be “grateful” for all that England has done for her.

        The sense that Scotland and England are equal parties does not come through to me if I go by comments.

        • CRSM

          How can any sentient being think that England and Scotland are equal partners?

          • Tickertapeguy

            When the Scotland and England united 300 years ago both accepted the equal status of the other. That was the basis of the Union.
            It was not meant that either party is better or worse than the other.
            that has changed
            Now England assumes Scotland is second to her.

  • Sue Smith

    You need to iterate that question; “In whose interest is it, and HOW?”

  • Brigantian

    There are some major differences between Scotland leaving the UK and the UK leaving the EU that this article has not touched on.
    Scotland for a start is a heavily depopulated country, and many of those born there live in other parts of the UK. The UK on the other hand is an overpopulated country, with many of those born elsewhere in the EU choosing to move here. The reaction of the Scot looking out on heather clad hills and seeing sheep and deer looking back at him is far different from that of the Londoner looking at walls of galls and concrete and surrounded by faces of many different hues.

    • Glenmoriston

      2 in 5 of the current residents of Scotland were not born there which is why the authorities use the PC term “people of Scotland”. The point being, there are plenty of reason’s why people wanted independence and many reasons for not. For some to suggest it was just about identity is not true.

      The country isn’t “heavily depopulated”- you surely haven’t been there lately. The population is at record highs ( now approaching 5.5m ,up 10% on a decade ) ,although the number of Scots in Scotland is rapidly dwindling ( because of low birth rate and emigration).

  • gaswork

    Scotland has made its stand, we have read it, we have seen it and most don’t want the EU even if you do, so time wee Scots and English vote our paths, as you do as we may do, do as you want and i’ll do that too.

  • “Alex Salmond: A rare moment for any nation”

    http://www.scotsman.com/news/alex-salmond-a-rare-moment-for-any-nation-1-3541112

    Dean Jackson: Great Britain isn’t ANY nation!

    The concept of Union has always meant security from outside invasion, the original threat to Presbyterian Scotland and Anglican England being an invasion from either Catholic France or Catholic Spain. What else would bring two such diverse cultures together, the Celts of Scotland and the Anglo-Saxon Normans of England? And the threat of foreign invasion is more subtle today, even unseen, because the enemy is weak in numbers, hence the enemy’s need to conceal its identity. Who is this enemy that threatens Britain?

    The enemy is within and without, and are Marxists who’ve co-opted the political parties of the West, including the West’s leading institutions, from the media to religion. We know this to be true not only because we were warned of the enemy within by KGB defector Major Anatoliy Golitsyn in 1962, but because the West’s institutions failed to warn its populations that the collapse of the USSR (and East Bloc nations) was a strategic disinformation operation, as proved by the West’s failure to not only verify the collapse, but de-Communize the Soviet Armed Forces officer corps (which was 90% Communist Party officered in late 1991), and failure to de-mobilize the six-million vigilantes that assisted the Soviet Ministry of Interior and militia to control the populations in the larger Soviet cities.

    The following are two discoveries I made in April 2015 regarding the Yugoslav ‘civil wars’ and ‘collapse’ of the USSR, and what they prove about the institutions of the West…

    (I) Communist control of Yugoslavia ‘civil wars’ gone unnoticed for quarter century.

    Secessionist Yugoslav Orthodox, Catholic and Muslim factions waged dirty wars against each other, neglecting to first wipe out the 9% of the population that attempted to do away with religion in Yugoslavia, proving the wars were orchestrated and controlled by the communist faction.

    Murder, torture and legal discrimination of those professing religious sentiment was so intense under the Marxist regime in Belgrade, that those who professed no religious affiliation increased from less than 10% pre-1945 to a bewildering 32% by 1987…

    ‘Like in most former Communist countries in Central, Eastern and South­‑Eastern Europe, the means and actions applied by the Yugoslav Government between 1945 and 1990 to reduce the influence of religions and religious organisations were quite effective: While there was just a tiny group of people who regarded themselves to be without a religion before the Second World War (less than 0.1% of the population), this number grew to 13% in 1953 and to 32% in 1987.’

    https://web.natur.cuni.cz/ksgrrsek/acta/2009/2009_henkel.pdf

    That 9% constitutes members of the League of Communists of Yugoslavia, the Marxist party that subjugated Yugoslavia from 1945 until the party’s dissolution in January 1990. Before any religious sectarian strife, first there would have been massive reprisals against the reviled Communists who implemented policies to wipe out religion in Yugoslavia. The fact that no such reprisals took place proves that the breakup of Yugoslavia, during the Yugoslav Wars (1991-2001), was manufactured and controlled by the Communists; and

    (II) When Soviet citizens were liberated from up to 74 years of horrific Marxist-atheist oppression on December 26, 1991, the day the USSR officially ended, there were ZERO celebrations throughout the USSR, proving (1) the ‘collapse’ of the USSR is a strategic ruse; and (2) the political parties of the West were already co-opted by Marxists,* otherwise the USSR (and East Bloc nations) couldn’t have gotten away with the ruse.

    ZERO celebrations, as the The Atlantic article inadvertently informs us…

    http://www.theatlantic.com/photo/2011/12/20-years-since-the-fall-of-the-soviet-union/100214/

    Notice, however, the Kremlin staged anti-government demonstrations that took place in Russia (and other Soviet republics) in the years immediately preceding the ‘collapse’, yet ZERO celebrations after the ‘collapse’!

    For more on this discovery see my blog…

    https://sites.google.com/site/deanjackson60/

    The above means that the so-called ‘War on Terror’ is an operation being carried out by the Marxist co-opted governments of the West in alliance with the USSR and other Communist nations, the purpose being to (1) destroy the prominence of the West in the eyes of the world, where the West is seen (i) invading nations without cause; (ii) causing chaos around the globe; and (iii) killing over one-million civilians and boasting of torture; (2) close off non-Russian supplies of oil for export, thereby increasing the price of oil, the higher price allowing oil exporting Russia to maintain economic stability while she modernizes and increases her military forces; (3) destroy the United States Armed Forces via the never-ending ‘War on Terror’; the ultimate purpose of the aforementioned to (4) bring about the demise of the United States in the world, opening up a political void to be filled by a new pan-national entity composed of Europe and Russia (replacing the European Union), a union ‘From the Atlantic to Vladivostok’;** which will (5) see the end of NATO.

    The fraudulent ‘collapse’ of the USSR (and East Bloc) couldn’t have been pulled off until both political parties in the United States (and political parties elsewhere in the West) were co-opted by Marxists, which explains why verification of the ‘collapse’ was never undertaken by the West, such verification being (1) a natural administrative procedure (since the USSR wasn’t occupied by Western military forces); and (2) necessary for the survival of the West. Recall President Reagan’s favorite phrase, “Trust, but verify”.

    It gets worse–the ‘freed’ Soviets and West also never (1) de-Communized the Soviet Armed Forces of its Communist Party officer corps, which was 90% officered by Communist Party members; and (2) arrested/de-mobilized the five million vigilantes that assisted the Soviet Union’s Ministry of the Interior and police control the populations of the cities during the period of ‘Perestroika’ (1986-1991)!

    There can be no collapse of the USSR (or East Bloc nations) without…

    Verification, De-Communization and De-mobilization.

    The West never verified the collapse of the USSR because no collapse occurred, since if a real collapse had occurred the West would have verified it, since the survival of the West depends on verification. Conversely, this proves that the political parties of the West were co-opted by Marxists long before the fraudulent collapse of the USSR, since the survival of the West depends on verification.

    Conclusion:

    The West will form new political parties where candidates are vetted for Marxist ideology, the use of the polygraph to be an important tool for such vetting. Then the West can finally liberate the globe of vanguard Communism.

    ————————-

    * The failed socialist inspired and controlled pan-European revolutions that swept the continent in 1848(1) taught Marxists and socialists a powerful lesson, that lesson being they couldn’t win overtly,(2) so they adopted the tactic of infiltration of the West’s political parties/institutions. In the case of the United States…(continue reading at DNotice)…

    https://sites.google.com/site/deanjackson60/now-you-see-me-now-you-don-t

    ** ‘Russia is an inalienable and organic part of Greater Europe and European civilization. Our citizens think of themselves as Europeans. We are by no means indifferent to developments in united Europe.

    That is why Russia proposes moving toward the creation of a common economic and human space from the Atlantic to the Pacific Ocean – a community referred by Russian experts to as “the Union of Europe,” which will strengthen Russia’s potential and position in its economic pivot toward the “new Asia.”’ – Vladimir Putin (2012).

    https://www.rt.com/politics/official-word/putin-russia-changing-world-263/

  • cargill55

    If the British people had been told in 1975 that we would be entering what would turn into a German controlled superstate , that our democracy would be destroyed, that we’d lose our national sovereignty, that we’d be governed by a de facto German regime, that we would be flooded by millions of EU economic refugees from a collapsing EU, that our security would be threatened by the hatred of nation states shown by Germany and the EU who told millions from North Africa and the Middle East, come to the EU, then we’d have voted to leave.
    We were lied to.
    The honesty we need is for the europhiles and the MSM , especially the BBC, to admit that the true objective of the EU is to create a totalitarian superstate, with no democratic mandate, and for the 28 nations of Europe to be replaced with regional clones carrying out the instruction of the centre.
    Then we will see that the lies they peddle about supposed economic benefits of EU membership are a smokescreen to hide the true objective.
    Europe has tried totalitarianism, fascism and communism several times in the last hundred years as a corrupt elite tries to thieve the freedom of hundreds of millions of people and these attempts have failed.
    The totalitarian EU will be defeated too.

    • cu chulainn

      Exaggerate much?

      • Dominic Stockford

        No, he’s missing several salient points which make the situation far bleaker than he paints it.

  • Happyin Herts

    Alex, the circumstances are quite different in this referendum. Both sides in the Scottish referendum loved the institution they supported. More Scots loved, and therefore wanted to stay part of, the United Kingdom. No such passion motivates the Remainers. The arguments mustered are either feeble ones about ‘better the devil you know’ or ludicrous, like European footballers being excluded from British clubs. The excitement, optimism and longing for Referendum Day belongs to Brexiters.

    • MichtyMe

      Some NO voters would have been lovers of the UK but perhaps most were not. The anti independence campaigners recognised this and did not make any appeals to a British patriotism or UK identity, they were exclusively negative with their Project Fear and many NO supporters would have been Yes if their anxieties had been dispelled.

      • Wee Mental Davie

        Still churning out the same old rubbish propaganda I see. We voted No because we want to remain strong and united in the Union. Why can you SNP types not just accept it and gies peace ?

        • OldPete

          Nae peace fur you:) Referendum 2 is no far away, yes, yes, yes!

          • Wee Mental Davie

            Yer old, so you’ll be deid soon. Nae vote fur you 🙂

      • Mary Ann

        Patriotism is for the upper classes to get the rest to die for our country so they can remain in power,

    • Dacorum

      I am positively looking forward to EU footballers being excluded from British football clubs following a vote to leave the EU! It is yet another reason to vote for Brexit.

      There are probably dozens of players as good as Vardy out there who never get a chance to play at the top level because it is cheaper to buy in mainly second rate talent from abroad than develop our own. I remember a time when British clubs dominated European football using just British players: we have the talent and we should develop our own by restricting foreign players to just two per squad, as I believe they do in county cricket.

      • Mary Ann

        Bit trivial. It’s only 22 grown men behaving like school-boys

        • Dacorum

          No. Football is important because it is the national sport and one we invented and gave the world.
          And greatly limiting the number of foreign players allowed to play here would develop more English talent and therefore greatly strengthen the England team.

  • Business Cat

    Careful what you wish for Jocks.

    The EU has said it is unlikely to allow an independent Scotland a fast-pass into the EU, so as to avoid similar breakups of Belgium & Spain….

    An ‘independent’ Scotland would probably have to spend at least 7-8 years going through the accession process.

    Then there is the reality that new members have to (by treaty) commit to taking on the Euro as their currency at some point in their future.

    • cu chulainn

      The situation where the UK leaves the EU and Scotland wishes to stay is not quite the same as the situation where the UK stays in and Scotland becomes independent. It sets much less of a precedent.

    • mariandavid

      No – it is the opposite – the EU would look most favourably on a new nation voting to stay IN the EU. And Wales is an even more passionate supporter of the EU than Scotland.

      • Kit
      • Business Cat

        I’m going by what the President of the European Council & the President of the European Commision both said before the Jocks independence referendum in 2014.

        An independent Scotland will be taken as a 3rd country & therefore completely starting its accession process from scratch.

        After that process is complete, which takes many years….
        Then unanimous consent is required from all member states.
        Spain has already voiced concern as they know it just sets easy precedent wrt Catalonia breaking away.

        • mariandavid

          Yes – but Scotland would be voting to stay: Read somewhere (Economist) that the Spanish were working on the same idea with bits of Catalonia.
          But will cheerfully admit – all is speculative and no one knows for sure. Certainly the biggest gamble as opposed to decision in English history!

  • Discuscutter

    I think that the EU referendum will give Remain the win but like Scotland the reality after will be that politically the Union will be dead and the gap ever widening.

    • Mary Ann

      As long as we vote remain the SNP will have no excuse to hold another referendum.

      • Discuscutter

        Maybe not but it doesn’t change the fact that in reality the Union is now dead.

  • David Westwood

    You can’t have an independent Scotland in a United States of Europe after all it would be like Texas. It
    seems the SNP are not offering Scotland Independence they are admitting that if they are not part of the UK then they must be part of the EU but no true independence. About 80% of Scotland’s trade is done with the rest of the UK. The remaining 20% with the EU and world combined. So would they really risk 80% of their trade with the UK for the sake of 20% with the rest?
    The SNP say if the UK leaves the EU they will have another referendum on independence but then they say they will leave the UK at some point in the future in any event, so there is little point in being persuaded by the SNP threat.
    If Cameron looses the referendum he will have to resign (even if he says he won’t) his position would be impossible. He cannot campaign to remain in the EU then negotiate the UK’s exit. He would not be
    trusted, there would be a conflict of interest.

    • Tamas Marcuis

      Your 80% 20% split indicates a particular lack of understanding about Scotland the UK and the EU. You don’t include “thru put” as exports to England, just because they pass through on their way to their final destination. By your statement you are implying the claim that Scotch whisky and Scottish beef are English exports.
      In fact your governments own figures show that Scotland is responsible for 16% of all UK exports. Now that can’t be reconciled with your claim only 20% of Scotland production is exported outside the UK. So either you or the UK government is wrong. Another fact to remember is that all oil and gas is allocated to Crown Estates and isn’t included on any Scottish figures. You perhaps have seen figures showing 20% of all UK exports are sourced from an area with only 8.5% of the population. My own company places the figure between 18.75 and 19.1%.

    • chasdf

      There is no SNP threat. If Scotland wants to go let them, no problem.

      • AWoLsco

        “If Scotland wants to go let them, no problem.”

        What terribly, terribly nice people. First they let the slaves go, then they let all their countries of the empire go, Now, at last, they’re ‘letting’ us Scots go.
        What a generous, fair-minded, jolly, bunch of chaps the English are.
        The facts that they are up to their knees in debt, have no industry, a navy with more admirals than ships, and an army that would fit into a football stadium is of course entirely by the by.
        Instead of Scotland being allied with the mightiest country in the world, we are now attached to a brainless, workshy, impecunious cripple with delusions of grandeur…..and wheresoever this twit goes, it expects Scotland to follow.
        The gormless cripple has no control over events but continues to think it has.

        • Michele Keighley

          Go and take an aspirin and have a lie down, you sound like a five year old having a tantrum.

          • AWoLsco

            “Go and take an aspirin and have a lie down”

            …The English approach to life….take a pill, lie down and wait for something to turn up.

          • BritishPatriot

            Seeing as how he’s a Scots Nat, taking a bottle of Buckfast and falling down would be more his speed.

  • Tamas Marcuis

    People in England need to be careful about who you call your friends.
    You spend too long listening to the eccentric far right wing of Scottish politics.
    The most bitter and reactionary.
    They are serving their own fairly vicious desires for personal power and influence.
    Do you trust the Orange Order in Ulster? Do you really think they are concerned about the same things you are? That they are not seething with anti catholic hatred.
    Yet you invite the Scottish version onto your television and let them claim to speak for half of Scotland.
    They are motivated by all or some, a hatred of Catholics, non whites, Poles, Jews, women and gays. They bottle it up and play the polite middle class racist in a suit for you view.
    So stop lapping up every thing they tell you.

    • David Westwood

      Dear Friend, thank you for your reply. I am not sure you understood my message. It was from a Scottish point of view. 80% (plus or minus a bit) is of Scotland’s exports are to the rest of the UK, which means only 20% of Scotland’s exports (plus or minus a bit) are done with the rest of the world. Oil is consider as a Scottish export but the UK government and therefore included in the figures by the ONS. The revenue for North Sea Oil has long been over estimated by the media and as a political football used by the SNP to claim Scotland rich. The reality is very different.

      The Government revenues from UK oil and gas production (updated May 2015)
      Between 2013 and 2014, total revenues fell by 54% from £4.7 billion to £2.1 billion. This was due to falling prices, lower production and higher expenditure.
      Between these years, corporation tax revenues have fallen by over 40% from £3.6
      billion to £2.1 billion while PRT revenues fell by over 90% from £1. 1 billion to £0.1 billion.

      Petroleum Revenue Tax assessments (updated January 2016) Profits
      assessable to PRT for the 12 months ending 30 June 2015 were £1,116 million, a
      decline of 55% compared with 12 months ending 30 June 2014
      This is due to lower production in fields liable for PRT, a decline in the oil
      price of around 30% and a reduction in the gas price of over 20%.

      PRT payable after oil allowance and safeguard for the 12 month period ending 30 June 2015 Was £473 million, a decline of 57% compared with the period ending 30 June 2014

    • Aldo

      This must be the dumbest post I’ve seen in a long time.

      Claims to be all about peace and harmony yet is seething with hatred for Unionists and the OO.

  • Jupiter

    You really can’t compare the two referendums, the EU one is nowhere near as important. Whether we vote in or out won’t make much difference but splitting the UK in two would have been enormously significant.

    • AWoLsco

      “but splitting the UK in two would have been enormously significant.”

      How so? I was led to believe that Scotland was a poor, wee, backward insignificant country with almost no resources and couldn’t survive on its own, without English generosity and the wise counsel of well-educated Englishmen, born and brought up to rule benevolently over the less fortunate of the earth.
      Surely then, if Scotland were to leave England, nobody would notice, and for the vast majority, life would carry on as before.

      • Jupiter

        But I live in Scotland, independence would have been an epic disaster, especially with Mrs Krankie or fat Salmond in charge.

        • Mary Ann

          Sorry, you don’t count with the little Englanders, you are not English.

        • AWoLsco

          “independence would have been an epic disaster,”

          Needn’t have been disastrous for you. You could have left and emigrated and immigrated at the same time. Every old johnnie seems to be at it these days. Why not you?

          On yer bike, Jimmie.

          • Jupiter

            I probably would have had to emigrate.

          • AWoLsco

            “I probably would have had to emigrate.”

            Good thing too. One less dismal jimmy and traitor-within-the-gates to deal with. Every cloud has a silver lining.

          • Jackthesmilingblack

            Washed up on the beach with the flotsam and jetsam of the stream of life.

          • Jackthesmilingblack

            Never too late.
            Jack, Penang

          • Harryagain

            The sensible Scots have been emigrating for years to get away from the “socialist paradise”.
            Leaving behind a very poor gene pool.
            (ie, the brain dead and socialist.)
            Capitalism built the Scottish economy.
            It was years of socialist destroyed the Scottish economy, not the English or the Tories.

          • AWoLsco

            “Leaving behind a very poor gene pool.
            (ie, the brain dead and socialist.)”

            Same with England. Now England is almost matching the Scottish emigration rate.
            England is every bit as socialist as Scotland but more servile, and it’s a toss-up as to which of the two countries is more brain-dead.
            Both countries are undergoing population replacement but like dodos, sit back and patiently await extinction.

          • Muireach MacGilleChaluim

            Scotland is 94% white so it will take a little longer.

          • AWoLsco

            “Scotland is 94% white so it will take a little longer.”

            Yes, but already 16.5% of the electorate are English, and on top of that they hold key positions in the police, government, television, quangos, land management, business……. and the universities, arts and farts are positively heaving with the blighters…..and none of them can speak braid Scots….and wouldn’t be seen dead doing so.

          • Jackthesmilingblack

            Make that decades. Scottish place names, company names and street names all over this area.
            Jack, Georgetown, Penang

        • rjbh

          so why one wonders did Scotland turn en masse to the SNP…do they not trust English politicos any more?

  • thomas_paine2

    Suppose the UK votes to stay in the EU (Heaven forbid!) on the strength of an overwhelming Scottish vote but the majority of voters in England vote to LEAVE?

    • newminster

      You’ll just need to hold your own independence referendum then, won’t you?
      Then after that you can leave in peace while the Celts continue to be the UK and remain in the EU.
      But it won’t happen. The English have enough sense to understand that Brexit would be disastrous and that the Little England of the 1930s has long since disappeared! Whatever Cash and Fox and Johnson would like you to believe. Oh, and Farage, of course (snigger).

      • thomas_paine2

        A fit of pique, I sense. Nobody wanting Britain to LEAVE the EU is harping back to the mythical ‘golden age’, well if any are, they are plain bonkers ; there was never a golden age since before 1914 and even then wasn’t such for more than half the people living (or more like barely surviving) in Britain. (And I wasn’t referring to the ‘Celts’, I was referring to the voters who live in Scotland, it’s not ‘Celtic’, it’s multi racial.)

    • chasdf

      Nothing would happen. The English would not be allowed to have any democratic rights.

      • Mary Ann

        The British would have expressed their democratic rights.

      • Mary Ann

        They will have had their democratic vote like everyone else and they will have lost, that’s democracy, you win some you lose some. Remember it is the UK which is the member of the EU, that means England Scotland Wales and Northern Ireland. England is the only country that wants to leave, three to stay, one to leave, that’s a win for the inners.

    • Mary Ann

      So, it doesn’t matter to you if Scotland is dragged out of the EU which is far more likely. You don’t care about them so why should they care about you.

      • thomas_paine2

        Where did I say I didn’t care about them? I care about every Commonwealth citizen, so there.

  • rjbh

    staying in the EU will provide us with EU sized pensions… which seems to be a whole lot better than the little englander version.

  • George Sapper

    The EU referendum is not voting for the Status Quo. It is a vote to leave OR a vote for more political integration, including joining the euro, press censorship. Remaining, means a Soviet style super state that will see all of our standard of living lowered and our freedoms vanish.

    To see some of the changes google

    Urgent message to all British people

    Please share on social media. We must Brexit

    • rjbh

      ‘standard of living lowered’ the poor of the country have already had their due to English Tory government…quite right if the rest take a hit.

      • Mary Ann

        It won’t happen though, more likely to have a lower standard of living if Britain leaves, even Farage has said we could be worse off if we leave.

        • Michele Keighley

          Where’s the link to that supposed Farage Quote? I’ve tried but google doesn’t recognise it.

          • Mary Ann

            Google “Britain could be worse off if we leave the EU Farage,” It’s in a couple of Spectator articles, but as I don’t pay a sub I cannot get the whole of the text, it was actually a comment he made about a year ago, so to find the original story would take far too long.

    • Mary Ann

      Scaremonger, leaving the EU will mean that we will lose freedoms. Cameron has a cop out from ever closer union…….

      • Lose freedoms? We gave Europe its freedoms. Our culture is built on liberal individualism. The argument about ‘freedoms’ is being conducted on the part of those who believe in a particular interpretation of freedom, of which they have been unable to persuade the UK electorate, so they seek to go over its heads to a supra national bureaucracy. That isn’t freedom, that is tyranny

      • whorya

        You are just afraid of the big wide world. It IS the other way round. You will lose your freedom by staying in.
        The reason we have not been cajoled into this Super state. Is because of two World wars interrupted the “Plan”. World war 1, caused a delay (A family thing).
        But World war 2. Well that is were Hitler saved/delayed us from it. With out this intervention we would be entrenched into this totalitarian dictatorship now.
        As we didn’t have the internet to investigate, The intent of the megalomaniacs who are running the EU. And the organizations behind them. 70yrs ago.
        I promise you I was never a NWO theorist. Until I Googled. “Couldenhove-kalergi”. A plan for Europe. It starts to put the pieces of the puzzle together. All the different things happening in individual countries of the EU.
        Also Wikipedia Angela Merkel, another eye opener. Please take the time to look. Regards “L” whorya.

    • LG

      Mmmmm. Apart from the opt out from the euro and the opt out from ever closer union. Apart from that you’re absolutely correct.

  • Dukeofplazatoro

    A referendum, however, is different. It’s not just temporary — it’s for life.

    EU referenda are not though, only if you vote they way they want. Remember the Dutch and Irish being asked to vote again.

    “Votez quitter, votez souvent”

    • mailbiter

      We had an EU referendum in 1975. We are having another one now, in 2016.

      Short life, that.

      • Mary Ann

        This will be the second time I vote in.

        • mailbiter

          Against last time. Very much in favour, this time.

          • Cadwan

            Me too, we were a manufacturing country providing goods that the food producing Commonwealth wanted. We had imperial preference which gave us a trading advantage, it was a no-brainer to stick with the Commonwealth.

            This time round everything has changed, our manufacturing sector has been destroyed, we have massive and soaring debts on which we have to pay interest. Our economy can’t be sustained and an almighty crash is imminent. We will need the support of the EU to bail us out.

          • AWoLsco

            “Our economy can’t be sustained and an almighty crash is imminent. We will need the support of the EU to bail us out.”

            Now, and only now, he tells us Scots this dramatic piece of news.
            There was no talk of this during the Scottish referendum.
            Better together, we were told.
            ‘United we stand’……but also…… ‘United we fall’.

            That’s the problem with unions.

            We didn’t hear much about ‘falling’.
            Naw, naw everything was going to be hunky dory, just fine and dandy.
            How could Scots be fooled by those silver-tongued rascals?

          • Cadwan

            “How could Scots be fooled by those silver-tongued rascals?”

            Perhaps you are a bit thick, just like we English.

          • AWoLsco

            “Perhaps you are a bit thick, just like we English.”

            Must be. Anyone who allows 800,000 English johnnies, 1 in 6 of the Scottish population, to vote in a referendum on Scottish independence must have a screw loose….or is a traitor.

            Next referendum…..No English, or other foreigners, allowed to vote and PUBLIC ballot only, no postal votes, with local counts, little or no transport of votes and full exit polls.

          • Muireach MacGilleChaluim

            So, how would eligible Scots be distinguished? A knowledge of Gaelic? An ability to name all the Broons? Possession of at least 3 Scots grandparents? Please do enlighten we doubters.

          • AWoLsco

            “how would eligible Scots be distinguished?”

            1) Colour

            2) Place of birth

            3)Education, lower and higher, in Scotland.

            4) Accent. No plummy English accents or foreign accents allowed.

            If any object they can lodge their objection with the Scottish electoral commission and on payment of a fee, present themselves for examination and in exceptional cases obtain permission to vote.
            Each person , with documentary and physical evidence must present himself before a steward, marshall or sheriff prior to voting…..whose judgement is final.
            Very simple.

          • Muireach MacGilleChaluim

            Upvoted for satirical excellence. Well done.

          • whorya

            Or ask them to pay to vote. Those who pay are not Scott’s. Then let all those who didn’t pay to vote. Vote as they are true Scott’s….

          • Paul Wonnacott

            I think defining “Britishness” is more fun, when the captain of the England T20 cricket team is an Irishman with a Welsh name,in the UK and ireland we are mostly a mixture of all British peoples.
            Population movements between us over the last 2k years and more some invasions some plantations some clearances some natural rural-urban drift due to the Industrial Revolution.
            Going back only 4 generations I am part Scot, part Irish part Welsh part English ( Anglo Saxon and Cornish Celt). Most of us however carry the genes of the Neolithic Farmers who built Newgrange, Stonehenge and Callanish
            On a DNA test if we define true native as being Picti/Albanacti, only about 10% of Scottish people are true natives, they are most of the 1% of all the British who are true native descendants of the mesolithic hunter gatherer who were here first.

          • Mary Ann

            Exit polls do nothing, people can lie about what they voted for. As for no postal votes, you are planning to disenfranchise disabled people. Think about it.

          • mailbiter

            I could have written that; my position exactly.

          • whorya

            Bail us out with what? Not the money they are throwing at Turkey to stop the exorbitant costs, that this migrant crisis IS going to cause the EU.

            They haven’t started throwing money at Africa yet. And the Africans will ask for far more. As they can see that the EU are DESPERATE.

            So pray tell mailbiter (doom and gloom). When as what you suggest happens. We stop paying in £55million a day, and ask them for that amount, to rescue us. Who is going to anti that money up.

            GET REAL AND GET OUT. It is FREEDOM and DEMOCRACY we will be voting for…..

          • Mary Ann

            Germany needs migrants like most EU countries they are not having enough babies to look after their olds.

          • Sue Smith

            They need muslim migrants like a fish needs a bicycle. If they were fair dinkum about skilled migration the vast numbers of unemployed people from Spain and Greece would have moved there long ago!! It’s actually criminal, what is happening now.

            Please answer this question: why didn’t Germany avail itself of the armies of unemployed in Greece and Spain?

          • mailbiter

            Thanks for all the capital letters. Makes is so much easier.

          • whorya

            Bail us out with what? Not the money they are throwing at Turkey to stop the exorbitant costs, that this migrant crisis IS going to cause the EU.
            They haven’t started throwing money at Africa yet. And the Africans will ask for far more. As they can see that the EU are DESPERATE.
            So pray tell CADWAN (doom and gloom). When as what you suggest happens. We stop paying in £55million a day, and ask them for that amount, to rescue us. Who is going to anti that money up.
            GET REAL AND GET OUT. It is FREEDOM and DEMOCRACY we will be voting for…..

          • Mary Ann

            In real terms we get far more back from the EU than we give.

        • whorya

          Never learn then. And yes I voted last time.

          • Mary Ann

            The EU has been brilliant for me, it has enable me to fulfil a dream I have had for years, to have a large garden, I would never have been able to afford one in Britain and without the EU and state health care for all EU citizens I would never have been able to afford to move to France. By leaving the EU ordinary working class people will lose the right to live where they like in Europe, and France and Spain will once again become the playground of the rich. Remember there are about 2 million Britons living in mainland Europe and about two and a half million people from other EU countries living in Britain. So the EU has only contributed about half a million extra people to Britain, and most of them young and fit, there are a lot of British pensioners over here and if we lose our state health most of us will have to come back. Wonder how the NHS will cope, old people spend about 13 times more in hospital than young people.

          • Sue Smith

            Oh, dear. The gravy train rolls on and on, fuelled by “fantasy funding”. The EU is all but bankrupt and I’d suggest the UK isn’t too far behind.

            Think Shakespeare, when you contemplate your garden…

            “T’is an unweeded garden; things rank and gross in nature possess it merely”. (Hamlet)

  • AWoLsco

    In voting to leave the EU, you are turning your back on communism.

    Communism, and it’s handmaiden, socialism, isn’t a political system at all….it’s gangsterism and kleptocracy.
    Angela Merkel is a German communist from a German communist family. Her father, Horst Kasner( known as Red Kasner) emigrated from Hamburg to the DDR.
    The communists dropped revolution as a means of siezing power, and calling themselves communists, after the catastrophe of the USSR.
    Now they call themselves socialists and employ ‘creeping communism’ as a means of moving towards a totalitarian society where all the wealth and property ends up in the hands of a few.

    Funny thing isn’t it, when all the leading communists end up immensely rich, living in the lap of luxury(and decadence) while the proletariat end up with poverty, grinding hard labour and worst of all….awaiting that knock on the door.
    Lenin(Vladimir Ulyanov, part jewish, Trotsky( Leiba Bronstein, jewish) and Stalin, the mighty midget, Jo Dhugashvilli(jewish wife) all had massive fortunes salted away in Swiss banks.
    I knew quite a few people in the old DDR….and that’s what the EU and Brussels and Britain as well, are moving towards.
    Imagine anyone voting for a state run by Al Capone and Bugsy Siegel or the Kray twins
    Anyone that votes for the EU needs their head examined.

    • Paul Wonnacott

      Wow, that’s a cool conspiracy theory, certainly more believable than aliens or lizards. do they collaborate with the Illuminati or are they rivals? The old DDR flag contained Freemason symbolism, the Calipers
      Odd symbolism however in the old Hammer and Sickle, two symbols of ancient pagan, Teutonic and Celtic belief systems and culture, both cultures being about as far removed from Communism in their social structure as one can get. Russia is the ancestral homeland of both cultures, back in 5k BCE,
      Not sure I’d vote for Capone, too much of a loose cannon, but Meyer Lansky maybe, max lolz. I believe the only people fit and responsible to be given any amount of power are among those that do not want it. Only they can be trusted not to have ulterior motives, in it for personal gain and/or egotistical reasons “leaving a legacy”, “making their mark”, euphemisms for imposing their will on others. Anyone who wants the job can’t be trusted, power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely.

      • AWoLsco

        “do they collaborate with the Illuminati or are they rivals?”

        They’re all one and the same. They’re all interconnected. Capitalism v communism. Russia v USA. Nazis versus the Allies. Royalists versus republicans.
        Those conflicts are for the plebs. They have a foot in both camps. War and conflict are highly profitable for them. There are bigger profits to be made from war than peace. World events are just not explicable without examining this supranational force. You seldom hear of the people involved, because they control the press. The more you read history, the more you realise that such a force has to exist. The dots just don’t connect without looking into this phenomenon. Thanks to the internet, it is much easier now to follow the trail than it used to be. A good rule of thumb is…..if authors are banned, ignored and vilified in the mainstream press, then read their material.
        BTW, thanks for making me look twice at the flag of the DDR. I hadn’t noticed the compass or calipers as you call them, when the flag flew. It was only later, when having time to spare I asked myself what really happened in Russia during the revolution, that references to freemasonry turned up time and time again, and some amazing revelations about our own times….ie the ‘cold war’ was a sham. The USA and the USSR were actually best mates. Without ‘American’ help, know-how and food-aid the USSR would have collapsed sooner than it did. Even the famous Red October factory( a symbol of Soviet resistance against the German invasion) was an imported American prefab…..which is why it was uprooted and transported to the Urals so easily.

        • Muireach MacGilleChaluim

          Even the famous Red October factory( a symbol of Soviet resistance against the German invasion) was an imported American prefab

          I hadn’t heard that before. Do you have any links or references?

          • AWoLsco

            “Do you have any links or references?”

            Trying to remember where I picked up that little gem. Anthony Sutton is a good scource for this sort of thing………

            ……”because
            Soviet machine tool production then was limited to the most elementary
            types, all production equipment in these plants was foreign. Soviet
            sources indicate that 300,000 high-quality foreign machine tools were
            imported between 1929 and 1940. These machine tools were supplemented
            by complete industrial plants: for example, the Soviet Union received
            three tractor plants (which also doubled as tank producers), two giant
            machine-building plants (Kramatorsk and Uralmash), three major automobile
            plants, numerous oil refining units, aircraft plants, and tube mills. ”

            Also caught in passing was this……

            “While the technical skills demonstrated by the Tsarist craftsmen had not quite been achieved, it may be said that in 1945 the nucleus of a skilled engineering force was once again available in Russia – for the first time since the Revolution. ”

            I’ll keep looking but have some tasks to attend to right now.

          • whorya

            Keep up the info. Fascinating…always willing to learn.

      • whorya

        I Could not describe the EU “Commissariat”. Better.

    • Planet Vague

      Wait a minute, I thought the EU was supposed to be the Fourth Reich? Or was it an international Jewish conspiracy? What *IS* the party line, white brother??

      • AWoLsco

        Fourth Reich? Hardly that. It would be a resounding success with prosperity for all and certainly would NOT be invaded by the riff-raff of the Middle East and Africa.

        “Or was it an international Jewish conspiracy? ”

        Not that either. The jews like such ideas and constructs but they can’t do it on their own. They need help, and they get it from our own ranks…the weak- minded, disaffected and ruthlessly ambitious( psychopaths). Let’s call them ‘satanists’ for the sake of brevity and convenience.

        • Disqus Bolloqus

          Therefore absolutely no way your post will be censored, as it couldn’t be further from the truth

    • Disqus Bolloqus

      Merkel’s father was a missionary for his church, spreading the word of God to the godless communists

      • AWoLsco

        “spreading the word of God to the godless communists”

        Utter twaddle. He was highly ranked in the communist hierarchy. Even the commies nicknamed him ‘Red ‘ Kasner, which incidentally is not a pure German name, but more associated with another group. I learnt this from an East German doctor who knew of him.

        • Disqus Bolloqus

          “I learnt this from a doctor who knew of him.”

          You’ve convinced me. Third hand anectodotal evidence. Got to be 100% accurate!

          • AWoLsco

            “Third hand anectodotal evidence. Got to be 100% accurate!”

            Go and do your research then, and prove me wrong.

          • Disqus Bolloqus

            Why should I, when you cannot prove your self right?

      • Sue Smith

        Then he must be rolling in his grave now over the actions of his daughter!!

  • flippit

    It won’t be like the Scottish ref. It isn’t about our identity, not for English people anyway. We’re English and British whether we stay in or leave. We’re much more comfortable in our own skin than Scots and we don’t put all the blame on Europe most of the time. For Scots it was a hate the Tories, hate the English, yes or no. For the majority in this country, hate won’t come into it.

    • Mary Ann

      If it were for life we wouldn’t be having a referendum now, we have already had one.

    • AWoLsco

      “For the majority in this country, hate won’t come into it.”

      Of course not. The English are too thick to hate anyone. Good old Dobbin, the ever- patient, servile English donkey, plodding on, unthinkingly, unknowingly, working for the world and it’s wife, giving them houses, free teeth and spectacles, grateful to live in a stable with a handful of hay for sustenance..

      • Paul Wonnacott

        Hate will come into it, because out of all the world’s races religions and cultures the one group of people most English really hate the most is their own fellow white English for one reason or another manufactured by the rulers to keep them divided.
        Like the Goth got beaten to death a couple of years ago, a Goth, come on what kind of cowards do that? Their own white peer group that’s who, Or football hooligans, and there’s still a lot of homophobia around, the English are boiling over at each other over the garden fence, on the road, in the workplace.

        • chasdf

          Er no, nonsense.

      • Disqus Bolloqus

        Clearly you are the exception that proves the rule. Full of hate for the rest of the world.

        • AWoLsco

          “Full of hate for the rest of the world.”

          I haven’t got the time …or energy to hate the rest of the world. I’m only interested in Scotland’s story( which does involve large areas of the world) and the restoration of her dignity as a free, sovereign nation which is her natural state….at least it has been, for 900 out of 1,200yrs or so.

          • Disqus Bolloqus

            Scotland is a free independent nation. It joined the UK voluntarily. It’s independent parliament chose to do so. Scotland if anything enjoys more freedom and independence than the other major member of the UK, England. As well as participating in elections to the UK parliament, Scotland has its own national parliament, something not enjoyed by the English. And the Scottish people reaffirmed their membership of the U.K. by the 2015 referendum, an exercise in democracy denied to the the other nationalities of the U.K. So Scotland is freerand more independent than any other part of the U.K.

          • Disqus Bolloqus

            Scotland is a free independent nation. It joined the UK voluntarily. It’s independent parliament chose to do so. Scotland if anything enjoys more freedom and independence than the other major member of the UK, England. As well as participating in elections to the UK parliament, Scotland has its own national parliament, something not enjoyed by the English. And the Scottish people reaffirmed their membership of the U.K. by the 2015 referendum, an exercise in democracy denied to the the other nationalities of the U.K. So Scotland is freer and more independent than any other part of the U.K.

          • AWoLsco

            “Scotland is a free independent nation.”

            No it’s not. Currently if the English go to war, we’ve got to go too….and pay for it, even though there isn’t a bean of profit in it for us. Such matters should be put to the vote in Scotland. The SNP are dragging their feet on this one.

            “It joined the UK voluntarily.”

            That’s largely true. Scotland was offered very generous terms and we did join up with a winner. That was then.
            Now we are shackled to a loser…..the USA’s pet poodle.

            “Scotland if anything enjoys more freedom and independence than the other major member of the UK, England.”

            Too bad. That’s for the English to sort out for themselves. None of our business.

            “reaffirmed their membership of the U.K. by the 2015 referendum,”

            Not a valid result. For the past 20-30 yrs, English have been bussed into Scotland to such an extent that they constitute 16.5% of the voting population.That those johnnies were allowed to vote was an absurdity and on top of that the vote was fiddled. The ban on exit polls showed that to be the case….along with the BBC working overtime in promoting the union.

            “So Scotland is freerand more independent than any other part of the U.K.”

            Scotland will not be free until she has her own armed forces and once again makes and amends her very own laws which she is more than capable of.
            An independent Scotland wouldn’t be hostile to England. In fact, if independent, she might be a more useful ally to England than she is as a captive, benefit-junky basket-case.

    • Keith Muir, Edinburgh

      No it wasnt hate the English, if anything the referendum was the mortar that improved the lot of the English in Scotland by cementing civic nationalism as the core of Scottish belief in who they are.

      Kippers start from a point that they hate everyone and then imagine everyone is like them we are not. Remember kippers it was thatcher that killed Britain by breaking the contract that England would never do anything the Scots did not approve of.

      • chasdf

        What contract was that? Why on earth should one small part of the UK have a veto on the rest. It is Scottish MPs who are abusing the Union by voting on English legislation, although I accept Cameron should have sorted that but hasn’t.

        • MC73

          So the union is only valid if 60m people do what 5m want them to do?

          • Keith Muir, Edinburgh

            I didnt vote for your union when I got the chance to and couldnt care less about it. Oh and you managed to reply to chasdf not me.

    • Disqus Bolloqus

      Have you ever heard Farage talk? He blames EU for everything, literally everything.

  • LG

    I used to enjoy a discussion here, but there’s so many complete wingnutters it’s a waste of time nowadays.

    • Jackthesmilingblack

      Refugees from the Daily Telegraph.

      • Alex Williamson

        I expect that all other right leaning sites that still allow comment will see a boom in traffic following the DTs bizarrely self inflicted demise.

    • thomas_paine2

      There’s a wingnut sitting in the Oval Office (when he’s not on the golf course).

  • Paul Wonnacott

    Just thought I’d remind you all, a referendum here in the UK is not legally binding, it is only classed as “advisory” effectively a statewide opinion poll, if we leave, it will take at least a decade to set up alternative trade deals to be ready in place. If the current situation with Tata Steel is an example of the kind of business relationships we have outside of Europe are you really sure that is what you want? Doesn’t sound like a good deal for our country to me, also we need to train a lot more Doctors and Nurses and dentists and Engineers as we don’t train anything like enough for what we need, that needs to be addressed before we leave.
    Incidentally all you Kippers, what do you suggest doing about the fact that the French Nationalised power industry owns and controls a third of our privatised Electricity production and distribution? We could end up batting on a sticky wicket there

    • whorya

      It isn’t just about economy. It is far more important than those things.
      It is about FREEDOM, DEMOCRACY, CHOICE, NATIONAL IDENTITY, BEING SELF-RESPONSABLE(including government). To have the choice to chose, which political party works, and is responsible to the voters of BRITAIN.
      Not self appointing (non-democratic) “Commission”. Who dictate their policies, as has been clearly shown to be totally inept. During this migrant crisis. And that is what it is a crisis. With no plan “B”. Except to throw our taxpayers money at it. With NO redress for the peoples “voters” of Europe. To say STOP we disagree with your policies.
      Britain MUST vote out of this madness, To save not just our freedom, but all the indigenous peoples of Europe. Set the example, the French are now questioning, and the Germans the validity of this totalitarian club. VOTE OUT, for your children’s future..

  • T Gould

    ‘So you’re just not into Europe, are you? Well, what about me?’
    Can you please avoid conflating Europe with the EU? You can have huge admiration for Europe and still find the EU and EU membership repulsive

  • Jackthesmilingblack

    Test

    • Muireach MacGilleChaluim

      You were blocked? By the Speccie?!?

  • Alex Williamson

    I’m actually quite disappointed that the EU referendum doesn’t seem to have generated anywhere near as much sound and fury as the Scottish referendum. It makes me concerned that people are being complacent and aren’t taking it seriously enough. It is only right that important, once in a lifetime, decisions like this should dominate that national consciousness and conversation for months.

  • thomas_paine2

    I’ll just say one thing about the June 23rd vote, in fact only one word is enough : L E A V E

  • Tickertapeguy

    Scotland will become independent because Scots and English do not like each other or the politics of one another. The Scots will not put up with the dictates of London or the arrogance of the English anymore.

    • Disqus Bolloqus

      Scotland is a free independent nation. It joined the UK voluntarily. It’s independent parliament chose to do so. Scotland if anything enjoys more freedom and independence than the other major member of the UK, England. As well as participating in elections to the UK parliament, Scotland has its own national parliament, something not enjoyed by the English. And the Scottish people reaffirmed their membership of the U.K. by the 2015 referendum, an exercise in democracy denied to the the other nationalities of the U.K. So Scotland is freerand more independent than any other part of the U.K.

      • Tickertapeguy

        If Scotland is that free then the SNP would not have risen in power and membership
        since
        the referendum
        and the Church of Scotland is independent of the Church of England
        Going by the comments there is a lot of anger towards the desire for Scotland to seek full independence.
        if your comment holds true then no anger should exist. then the SNP should not gain members. but they do.

        • Disqus Bolloqus

          SNP is popular because the Labour Party is unpopular

          • Tickertapeguy

            When the referendum took place the SNP had a membership of 25 thousand
            a few months later it jumped to 85 thousand
            a couple of years later the SNP is a major party in Westminster.
            the main platform of the SNP is the independence of Scotland and not the issue of the Labor Party.

          • Disqus Bolloqus

            Scotland is already independent. It could hold another referendum and chose to leave the UK. However it cannot vote for independence as it is already independent.

          • Tickertapeguy

            For any nation to be truly independent she should
            -Command her own military
            -Have complete say of her sovereignty (borders)
            -Have her own laws including being independent of any other entity
            -Have full representation in the United Nations as a nation.
            Just in those few points Scotland is NOT independent.

          • Disqus Bolloqus

            Which Scotland does through its independent decions of 1707 and 2014 to create and remain in the UK. Sadly England dies not having been denied an equivalent referendum.

          • Tickertapeguy

            London is dealing with BREXIT
            that Brussels does not like if the UK breaks free
            If you respect “independent” decisions of 1707 and 2014. Then continue to respect such independent decisions in the future, even if you do not like them.
            Look at it this way. There is a good chance Brexit will happen. that “independent” decision will make many EU leaders disappointed. Would you really care if they are or not?

          • Disqus Bolloqus

            London is the UK parliament. England does not have one. The U.K. Government and Scottish, Welsh and Northern Irish governments are in favour of remaining. England does not have a government.

            If Brexit happens, the U.K. could cease to exist. This is because the UK Conservative government would collapse. The Conservatives have only a small minority, and theLabour Party would only need to win a few seats in England to deprive them of a majority, a quite likely outcome as the economic growth continues to stall, and the Conservatives suffer from mid term blues. The next government would then be a Labour-SNP alliance, and the Scots price for that would be a second referendum.

          • Tickertapeguy

            Wouldn’t you love it if the “Republic of Scotland” was a member of the United Nations where she has her own voice and promotes her own nation?
            Wouldn’t you love it if the “Republic of Scotland” had her own Scottish army and expat Scots from all over the world, can come back to Scotland as their “homeland”?
            Great if Scotland then promotes her culture and history independent of the United Kingdom. Wouldn’t you like that for them?

          • Disqus Bolloqus

            Wouldn’t bother me in the slightest. The future of Scotland is up to the Scots.

            I bet you’d love it when Mr Trump returned to his homeland!!!

        • Disqus Bolloqus

          Scotland is independent. It voluntarily joined the United Kingdom, and reaffirmed its membership by referendum. How can you say it isn’t?

          • Tickertapeguy

            Scotland and England formed a Union. That is not “joining” England
            that is equality of both Scotland and England to enter into a Union 300 years ago
            that was before
            the British Empire
            The Industrial Revolution
            World War One and Two
            the formation of NATO
            the Cold war
            the “special relationship” signed between England and the US under Churchill
            and many more where Scots fought and died across the world due to decisions made by London and later on, by D.C. That the Scots did not count on 300 years ago when they formed a Union with England

          • Whitegold

            You are correct .The history of Scotland did not start at the Union.
            ‘Special relationship’, that old chestnut.
            USA -‘Jump’!
            U.K. – ‘How high”?

          • Tickertapeguy

            I have to Google the history of Scotland but the Union of Scotland and England created a situation where Scottish sons and daughters were at the whim of London and later on, D.C.
            when the EU formed then the sons and daughters of Scotland were partly decided by Brussels
            In any event Glasgow played a smaller and smaller role on the lives of the Scottish people.

          • Disqus Bolloqus

            London is the seat of the UK parliament created by the Scottish Parliament. The first royal family of the U.K. were the Stewart’s, the Scotish Royal family. DC Is the PM of the U.K. (Not England). Unlike the Scots, England does not have a parliament or a PM. Nor have the English had a referendum on their continued membership of the U.K. The English do not enjoy the same freedoms as as the Scots. We are denied a national parliament and a referendum. It is not a union of equals; Scotland enjoys much more freedom and independence than other countries in the UK.

            By the way Glasgow is not and has never been the capital of Scotland or the home of the Scottish Parliament. That honour falls to Edinburgh.

          • Disqus Bolloqus

            You’re right. Scotland created the UK, lending weight to my point thatScotland is already an independent nation. Yet you said in earlier posts it is not.

            You’re wrong on other points though. Churchill was not PM of England, he was PM of the U.K. which as we agree was created by Scotland. Second he didn’t sign a special relationship with USA.. He made an alliance between the UK and U.S.A to fight Germany and Japan. And it would be impossible for Churchill or any other UK PM to sign any deal between any third party and England, as the UK PM reoresents the UK not England. England doesn’t even have its own parliament so cannot be represented on the international stage.

            Decisions made by London and DC are decisions made by the UK, the Union created by Scotland and the Union the Scottish people voted to remain a part of in 2015. The parliament in London is not the English Parliament. The English are in comparison with the Scots a suppressed nation. They do not have a national parliament, nor have the English people been granted a referendum on their continued membership of the UK.

            Speaking as an English person I am thoroughly disgusted by recent decisions taken by the UK parliament to invade Iraq and bomb Libya. Unfortunately as an English person I am unable to make my feelings known to an English Parliament, because there is none.

          • Whitegold

            The one sided Union simply does not work for Scotland anymore.
            The genie is out the bottle.
            We are heading for an independent country within 50 years.
            Bullying, lies and threats have ensured the constitutional question isn’t resolved.
            Added by ‘bitter togethers’ ‘victory’ by such a small majority this issue is as raw as ever.

          • Disqus Bolloqus

            Scotland cannot be heading towards being an independent country as it is already independent. It could chose to leave the UK and repeal the act of union passed by the Scottish Parliament in 1707. However it is impossible for an already independent country to vote for independence.

          • Headstrong

            Digressing slightly, if the UK is a unified country as it stands, why do England, Scotland et al have separate teams at the Football, Cricket, rugby world cups?
            No sarcasm here, asking because I honestly would like to know.

          • Disqus Bolloqus

            Your question is probably best answered by the late great Bill Shankly who managed Workington Toen and some other club:-

            “football is not a matter of life and death, it’s much more important than that”

            That is why the nations will never give up their sports teams but are less bothered about their political representation.

          • Headstrong

            Ok. But how and why are world bodies permitting it? After all, if one were to speak of being a country, it’s evident that it is UK that has that position. Then why are England, Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland permitted to field separate teams?

          • Disqus Bolloqus

            Because we invented the rules of football, and it’s tradition

          • Headstrong

            In other words – ‘Because we say so’

            Don’t get me wrong – I’m genuinely curious

          • Wee Mental Davie

            You know, there are many things I don’t understand about the SNP. The most insane actions, where you want to split the Union then sign away your freedom to the EU is up there as madness, but the most destructive and non reversable policy of insanity, where you import as many muslims into Scotland as possible, has got to be the worst. To want to erradicate the Scots culture and then replace it with islam has to be a criminal act. You have all gone too far. The SNP are not for the Scots and you must be stopped.

          • Tickertapeguy

            well said

          • Tickertapeguy

            Outside of Semantics the lives of the Scottish people were not decided by Scots.
            I personally believe if Scotland knew what they know now (the wars that formed the British Empire, the wars since then, the formation of the European Union, the mass migration of Muslims etc)
            they would not have agreed to this union.

          • Disqus Bolloqus

            It is not semantics to assert the truth that Scotland is an independent country that chose to create the UK by an Act of Union passed by the Scottish Parliament in 1707 and reaffirmed by the Scottish people by referendum in 2015 ( quite why is a baffling to me, but I presume the Scots had their reasons).

            It is of course impossible for the Scottish Parliament in 1707 to foresee nets four centuries later. However in 2015 the Scottish people knew if the issues you mentioned, yet did not consider them sufficiently important to dissolve the Union created by their own Parliament in 1707.

            If you were to argue that the political affairs of the U.K. tend to be dominated by the English, I would tend to agree with you though that is a completely different thing from claiming that Scotland somehow is not independent. The English domination is a consequence of the relative size of the two countries populations. That might be a good reason for the Scots to dissolve the Act of Union, but the Scottish people disagreed in the 2015 referendum. Quite why, I know not.

          • Tickertapeguy

            No matter how you cut it
            Scotland does not have representation in the UN as an independent nation
            or
            a military of her own
            The decisions made in London affected Scotland. They were not formulated in Scotland but in London and later on, Washington D.C. (due to the special relationship).
            Yes I know that the Scots voted to stay with the Union in 2014 (not 2015)
            But
            since then the Scottish Nationalist Party has gained ground. their main platform is independence for Scotland
            If Scotland is independent how did they force the bagpipes on England?

          • Disqus Bolloqus

            The same can be said of England. The English position is even worse, as we do not have our own parliament. So within the UK Scotland is in a privlledged position compared to England

          • Tickertapeguy

            Do you know during the British Empire the same was said of the subcontinent? same of the US colonies?
            I guess one persons concept of “privileged” is another person’s concept of a ‘gilded cage”.

          • Disqus Bolloqus

            America and India were invaded by the British army. Scotland and England fought many wars, but England never conquered Scotland, and Scotland never conquered England. The U.K. was created on a voluntary basis by the two countries. So the comparison with North America and India is a false one.

          • Tickertapeguy

            No they were NOT
            The East India Company was a commercial venture. When the Sepoys (created by the East India company) rose against them they defended themselves and won. Only then in 1858 did the company holdings were transferred to the Throne of England.
            In the US it was the increase of 3 cents stamp act on 13 colonies formed by European pilgrims. England did not “invade” the colonies.

          • Disqus Bolloqus

            The British (English and Scottish) certainly did invade North Anerica. They commenced the genicide of the native populations, created the Colonies, kidnapped Africans and forced them into slavery. The descendants of the English settlers later revolted against the crown.

            You’re right the original occupation of India was spearheaded as a commercial enterprise, but it wasn’t long before the British army moved in.

          • AWoLsco

            Disqus Bolloqus

            2 hours ago

            Hold on, this is waiting to be approved by The Spectator.
            Here we go. The ministry of truth has arrived.

          • Tickertapeguy

            When it came to the East India company much of the land were given to them. If not for the Sepoy uprising I doubt if an Empire would have formed.

          • Disqus Bolloqus

            Yes the Indians just gave their land away to a bunch of suits. The fact that the locals knew the East India Company was ultimately backed by the British army was pure conincidence!

          • Tickertapeguy

            One more thing.
            Right now the EU leaders in Brussels believe the UK is “privileged” to be a member of the Union. As more migrants pour in one wonders who really feels “privileged”, is it the EU elite or the common man of England?

          • Disqus Bolloqus

            Can you clarify your view on immigration please. I’m puzzled because you seem opposed to mass immigration yet support SNP whose leader has argued strongly in favour of more immigration

          • Tickertapeguy

            Mass asylum seekers are NOT immigration
            Immigration is a complex process where the INS ( Immigration & Naturalization Service) has specific regulations as to
            who comes in
            how long they stay on a green card
            when they can become citizens
            this is the case in the US
            I am sure UK has similar regulations. These asylum seekers violate every concept of those very strict regulations’
            do you know most nations of the world will not allow this to happen? no one can simply enter their nations and become citizens without a lengthy legal process.

          • Disqus Bolloqus

            What makes you think it is different in UK? Do I take it from your reply that you are not Scottish at all, but American?

          • Headstrong

            Not only is he not Scottish, he’s not even American! At least not originally. He’s Bernard Wijeyasingha, a Sri Lankan immigrant to the US himself. Extremely bigoted and abusive. Reins himself in here, but see him let fly on Asia Times and other Asian and Indian sites.
            Nasty piece of work!

          • Sue Smith

            May I ask why your writing resembles poetry?

          • Tickertapeguy

            BTW I really do love the bagpipes. It reminds me of a Siamese cat I had once. (just joking)

          • Disqus Bolloqus

            I’ve just returned from Mallaga. I saw and heard the locals playing bagpipes. The pipes are an old European instrument that survives in several cultures.

          • Tickertapeguy

            That is interesting. But I have always associated the sound of the Bagpipes and the image of a man in Kilts playing them, as the image of the Scots.

          • Disqus Bolloqus

            It’s certainly true that bagpipes are more closely associated with Scotland than any other country. Did you know there is an English version

            http://youtu.be/qVUW7FpR_l4

          • Tickertapeguy

            Yes I was aware of it
            I have seen Irish play bagpipes too but the kilt is Sot. then the combination is Scottish
            an Independent Scotland can voice that openly and also her history culture and tourist attractions through her own voice and not that of others.

          • Disqus Bolloqus

            I have no issue with Scotland leaving the UK if she choses to do so. If I were Scottish I’d have voted to leave in 2014.

            However it does annoy me, when people talk of Scottish independence, as Scotland is just as independent as England. As mentioned the UK was created by an Act of Union passed in both Parliaments. London, I.e. Westminster is NOT the English parliament . It is the UK parliament,,and as such just as much Scottish as it is English. What’s more the Scots actually voted to remain! There is no English army anymore than there is a Scottish army. The wars that the UK has entered are UK wars and as much the responsibility of Scotlsnd as of England. There have been several Scottish PMs of the U.K., and the Royal Family is descended from Scottish King and Queens. Scots should take responsibility for actions of the U.K. and stop blaming the English every time something goes wrong.

            So leave the UK fair enough, but talk of independence is plain wrong.

          • Tickertapeguy

            Scotland will be independent when
            she has rep in the UN
            she has her own military and intelligence service
            control of her own borders
            maybe even her own currency
            Right now she does not have any of the above.

          • Disqus Bolloqus

            You’ve said that before. Scotland does have rep at UN through UK. The U.K. Is the creation of Scotland. Without Scotland there would be no UK

          • Tickertapeguy

            Not “through the UK”
            Scotland stands on her own. before that Union Scotland stood on her own. and through anyone.

          • Disqus Bolloqus

            Yes I know. Then she created the UK and chose to pool resources with England, a decision reaffirmed by popular referendum in 2914. Scotland is independent, more so than The English who have not had a similar referendum.

          • Tickertapeguy

            Disque
            Just thought I would share this with you. You consider Scotland independent but London speaks for her in the UN?
            how if you reversed it?
            How if Scotland was in the UN and spoke for England?
            How if Scotland had the military and decided the fate of Englishmen?
            would you consider England a free nation?

          • Disqus Bolloqus

            Tickety,

            U,K. Speaks for UK, which consists of Scotland, England, Wales and Northrn Ireland.

            London is the UK parliament. It is as much Scotland’s as it is England’s

            The armed forces are the UK’s. They are as much Scotland’s as they are England’s

          • Disqus Bolloqus

            Scotland created the UK. They were not forced into it. The Scottish people voted in a national referendum in 2014 to remain in the UK. The Scots made those decisions independently. The U.K. Is NOT England. It is a union between Scotland and England. The U.K. Is as much Scottish as it is English. Why can you not understand that? Why do you continually confuse UK and England?

          • Tickertapeguy

            for example in the UN Scotland and England should have their own voices to debate each other or to agree with one another.
            Scotland is not some voiceless Step child of England where London “speaks for Scotland”

          • Disqus Bolloqus

            No one said it was. The point you fail to appreciate is that the UK is as much Scottish as it is English. I could make exactly the same points applied to England you make about Scotland. If the UK is dissolved then Scotland and England could take their seats at the UN

          • Tickertapeguy

            the independence of either party would end the unity. That does not count the Welsh.

          • Tickertapeguy

            One more thing an independent
            Scotland, England, Wales does not mean weakness for each would have their own military, air force and navy which most likely would work as an alliance.
            the economies would continue and most likely trade between them will increase
            the economic problems of one may not be the burden of the others.

          • diqi

            That is wishful thinking. It would not be an amicable divorce considering how nasty the Scots activists have been. Trade would decline, not least in financial services which would be a major problem for Scotland since the bulk of their investment funds come from English customers.

          • Tickertapeguy

            Actually that is the unknown. In that case both your comment and mine are just guesses.
            You have no idea what new ventures will open up to an independent Scotland and I have no idea if the militaries of Scotland and England would form an alliance.

            Keep this in mind. if this was reversed and Scotland was the voice in the UN and the Scots decided which wars to fight and the fate of English men and women in those wars, I believe after 300 years of this the English would demand independence from Scotland and an end to the Union regardless of the economic consequences.

          • Disqus Bolloqus

            I never said any nation would be weak if they were to leave UK. I’m not arguing in favour of continuation of UK. I’m merely point out the facts. That Scotland is an independent nation tha has chosen to pooled her resources in the UK.

            Interestingly that does not apply to Wales who were physically conquered by the English. Therefore the Welsh could legitimately hold an independence vote. Scotland and England cannot as both are already independent

          • Tickertapeguy

            As for the royalty of Scotland and England that holds true of European royalty in general. When European nations go to war with one another it is more of family affair since European royalty are related. Even the Tsars were related to European Royalty

          • Disqus Bolloqus

            I can agree with you whole heartedly on that point

          • Tickertapeguy

            Thanks,
            that is why the murder of the Romonov family came as collective shock to Europe
            the same with the French Revolution.

          • AWoLsco

            “the UK has entered are UK wars and as much the responsibility of Scotland as of England.”

            Absolute nonsense. Scottish nationalists were jailed for saying… that taking up arms against Germany should be a matter of choice….not coercion.
            That was the old Scottish way. The individual was left to choose which side he fought on(in a foreign conflict)….or to stay at home.

          • Disqus Bolloqus

            You deny reality. Next you’ll be telling me the Sun rises in the West and sets in the East.

            English men and women were also jailed in WW2 for exactly the same reasons.

            Scots spent centuries fighting one another. For example at Culloden the Lowlanders massacred the Highlanders.

            Are you really suggesting that following dissolution of the U.K. and creation of a Scottish army in the eventi of a war, Scots would be free to join join ISIS carry out bombings on a Saturday and turn up for work on a Monday morning as ignoring has occurred?

            Scotland is just as independent as England, perhaps more so as it has its own national parliament, and England does not. I agree with you that because of relative population sizes, the political affairs of the UK are dominated by the English but that is not the same as making the claim that Scotland is not independent. Domination of UK affairs by the English could have been a reason for Scots to vote to leave the UK, but they chose to remain. I’m completely baffled as to why. If I were Scottish I’d have voted to leave. Perhaps you could explain why the Scots did not please?

          • Disqus Bolloqus

            Another thing, you talk of English out voting Scots. You’ve fallen for Tory divide and rule. Scots v English, Rich v Poor, Public sector v Private sector, Old v Young. The truth is that ordinary English and ordinary Scots have more in common with one another than they do with the elites that rule their lives, whether that be the political elite or the boardrooms of Banks and multi nationals.

          • Tickertapeguy

            For example
            Sean Connery was a Scot but many in the US think he is English
            the Lipton tea industry was started by a Scotsman but many think that is English.

          • Sue Smith

            Oh no..!!!

          • Mary Ann

            I have to agree.

          • AWoLsco

            “The pipes are an old European instrument that survives in several cultures.”

            They are indeed….. and interestingly they probably arrived in Scotland from England, where they were played widely in markets and fairs. The English and continental aristocracy didn’t like them. Apparently, many thought the puffed cheeks of the piper were unseemly and redolent of the devil and paganism, so they received no patronage. However things were different in the highlands and islands of the West of Scotland. There, they did receive patronage and were developed and schools set up. Some of our greatest players today can trace back their tutors and mentors to those early schools set up in the 1500-1600’s.
            King Charles II visited Perth(Scotland) when the catttle sale was on….and the annual all-Scotland piping competition.
            Nobody paid him much attention, but all were doffing their caps and calling out in friendly greeting to a non-descript highlander walking through the crowds.
            His majesty enquired…”.Who is that man that they greet as though he were a King?”
            ” But he is a king sire. He is the king of pipers.”
            … a little insight into the Scots mentality.
            We prefer meritocracy to aristocracy.

          • Sue Smith

            No, they do sound like a cavalcade of cats!! Ear-piercingly unpleasant. When I studied Ethnomusicology I learned that there’s a great deal of skill in playing the bagpipes. Why would anyone bother, though?

          • Paul Wonnacott

            I think the training pipe they use sounds nicer, can’t recall it’s name, has a similar tonal quality to North African/Mid Eastern Snake Charmer’s pipes, a much softer sound. The bag and other pipes part are to project the sound over a distance outdoors, so listening close to is like being in front of the speakers at a Rock Gig, ear Invasive. meant to be heard from a distance.

          • AWoLsco

            “can’t recall it’s name, has a similar tonal quality to North African/Mid Eastern Snake Charmer’s pipes”

            ……..The ‘practise chanter’. You make your mistakes….and spare the ears of the neighbours, on that instrument.

            “to project the sound over a distance outdoors,”

            Correct….and you can march and play at the same time and the instrument is highly portable and quick to be put into operation.

          • AWoLsco

            “a cavalcade of cats!! Ear-piercingly unpleasant.”

            Speaking as a former piper…..improperly tuned and badly played, I agree, nothing sounds worse. Do bear in mind, that it( the typical great highland bagpipe) was intended to be played to be played outdoors…to summon clans to battle, maintain the march of an army, provide dance music and lend a sombre note to funerals and remind us of our ancestors and their great deeds….and disasters…..very different objectives to European orchestral music and pop entertainment.

          • The Patriarchy

            The Scots were gagging for access to England’s empire in the early eighteenth century. The Imperial opportunity was the major selling point of the Union, and it served Scotland well – from one of the poorest countries in Europe in 1700, Scotland had become the second richest in the world by 1850.

          • AWoLsco

            “The Scots were gagging for access to England’s empire in the early eighteenth century”

            Not true. The English , surrounded by hostile enemies, needed Scotland more than Scotland needed England. Also the aristocracy had borrowed heavily from the Scottish burghs to buy shares in the failed Darien Scheme and thus power in an independent Scotland would have shifted from the aristocracy to the Burghs and you may have seen the establishment of one of the first republics in Europe..On top of that, due to high taxation in England, English firms were starting to migrate north of the border.Scotland was always a low tax country, almost no tax country…which is why it appears to be ‘poor’ when you look at the books.
            However much of the country ran on a grace-and-favour basis and still employed barter.
            The English had to make a very attractive offer to Scotland for it even to be considered never mind taken up.

            If only England enjoyed such terms of membership of the European Union then they wouldn’t be where they are today.
            However the terms of joining the ‘Common Market’ weren’t too bad at the time, but that’s the trouble with ‘Unions’. Over time, things change, and the deal can turn sour…..as it has between England and Scotland……. as England has become poorer, sold off all her industry to foreign ownership, tries to make a living from ‘invisible’ exports raking in money which also seems to be ‘invisible’ and her prestige has plummetted from world leader to craven vassal of the USA.

            With hindsight, Scotland should have gone for independence after the fiasco of WW1. Had it done so, it would today, have a standard of living second to none.

          • Dacorum

            Scotland benefitted hugely from the British Empire and were huge supporters of the British Empire. It was Scotland’s Empire as well because Scotland was as much British as any other part of Great Britain, something the SNP refuse to acknowledge as they seek to rewrite and distort history. And the Dominions also regarded the British Empire as “theirs” as well.

            Scotland’s freedom today is entirely due to the Act of Union because (a) we were able as a Union to defeat France in the times of Napoleon and Germany (twice) and (b) we were also able to call upon the resources of the British Empire and our kith and kin overseas, many of them Scots, to help us all.

            As for the formation of the EU and mass migration, not one of the nations of the Union gave their consent to this. But now we – all the nations of the Union – have the chance to regain our independence and to vote to leave the EU and to control our borders once more in our mutual self interest.

            I trust therefore that you will be voting to leave the EU.

          • Sue Smith

            Oh bollocks! Just lie back and think of England.

        • The Patriarchy

          drivel.

          The SNP vote was down 10% between September 2014 and May 2015.

          • ChuckieStane

            The SNP were not standing in any elections in September 2014 (unless there was council by-elections).

      • AWoLsco

        “Scotland is a free independent nation.”

        No it’s not. Currently, if the English go to war, we’ve got to go too….and pay for it, even though there isn’t a bean of profit in it for us. Such matters should be put to the vote in Scotland. The SNP are dragging their feet on this
        one.

        “It joined the UK voluntarily.”

        That’s largely true. Scotland was offered very generous terms and we did join up with a winner. That was then.
        Now we are shackled to a loser…..the USA’s pet poodle.

        “Scotland if anything enjoys more freedom and independence than the other major member of the UK, England.”

        Too bad. That’s for the English to sort out for themselves. None of our business.

        “reaffirmed their membership of the U.K. by the 2015 referendum,”

        Not a valid result.

        For the past 20-30 yrs, English have been bussed into
        Scotland to such an extent that they constitute 16.5% of the voting
        population.That those johnnies were allowed to vote was an absurdity and
        on top of that the vote was fiddled. The ban on exit polls showed that
        to be the case….along with the BBC working overtime in promoting the
        union.

        “So Scotland is freerand more independent than any other part of the U.K.”

        Scotland will not be free until she has her own armed forces and once again
        makes and amends her very own laws which she is more than capable of.
        An independent Scotland wouldn’t be hostile to England. In fact, if
        independent, she might be a more useful ally to England than she is as
        a captive, benefit-junky basket-case.

        • Disqus Bolloqus

          The English cannot go to war. England does not have a parliament so cannot declare war on anyone. England does not have any armed forces.

          • AWoLsco

            Pedantry will get you nowhere.
            A totally useless, ineffectual reply.

          • Disqus Bolloqus

            It’s not pedantry. It’s the factual truth whether you like it or not

        • Disqus Bolloqus

          The vote was fiddled. It’s all the fault of immigrants. Are you a member of UKIP? You certainly sound like one. Mr Farage would be proud of you.

          I agree Scotland would thrive as an independent nation, why the Scots voted to remain part of UK is completely baffling to me.

          All your talk of a Scottish army sounds as if you want to keep repeating the mistakes Scots have been making for four centuries by invading other countries through their reaction of the UK. Why would you want to do that’s? Surely the point of leaving the UK would be tomske a break with the past, not continue it in some other form.

          • Mary Ann

            Why did Scotland vote to stay, because Salmond couldn’t come come up with sensible answers to vital questions, like what are the Scots going to spend, or not spend, if they are true Scots.

          • AWoLsco

            “like what are the Scots going to spend, or not spend, if they are true Scots.”

            Reviving an old nation is like a couple starting a family.
            Most don’t hire an accountant before launching out on such a venture. If they did, then I reckon the human race would just fade away.

          • The Patriarchy

            You mean the nationalists lost the economic argument decisively?

            Yes, you’re right, they did. Even with salmond lying through his teeth, they got badly found out.

          • AWoLsco

            There is no economic argument worth bothering about. Had Scotland gone independent after WW1, as it should have, then it would probably be, now, the most prosperous country in all Europe.
            No WW2 and the debt incurred by the numpty English government, good engineering base, an oil fund to see it through lean times and self- sufficient in agricultural produce. All those Scottish empire-loyalist unionists must be kicking themselves.

          • Sue Smith

            ‘Why did Scotland vote to stay?’ Because they needed a question mark and there wasn’t one available!!

          • AWoLsco

            “All your talk of a Scottish army sounds as if you want to keep relating
            the mistakes Scots have been making for four centuries by invading other countries through their reaction of the UK.”

            Every European country has an army….for defence. The Swiss have an army, the largest in Europe and they have not been invaded for centuries. There’s a lesson there.
            The army and navy also provide social services. The army keeps the young fit and manly and provides training in responsible gun-ownership, while the navy can provide additional services to Scotland’s many outlying islands and expose the youth of the country to naval discipline.
            Without armed forces Scotland is subject to blackmail.

          • Disqus Bolloqus

            As large as Russia’s. Wow!

          • Enoch Powell

            Since when has Russia been European?

            70/80% of the Russian Landmass is in Asia.

            And as per this website
            https://www.quora.com/Is-Russia-an-Asian-or-European-country

            Culturally the country may contain some people who have a European outlook, but it has many millions more who have an Asian outlook.

            Having a massive army is very much an Asian culture – as per the Khanate’s of the Mongols (Where the army consisted of the entire male population), or China.

          • Disqus Bolloqus

            It’s capital city and origins are in Europe. Most of the population lives in Europe. Russian art, literature and culture forms part of the European tradition and heritage. The Russians are descended from the Russ, Swedish Vikings who emigrated down the river systems in medieval times. The Romanov royal family are related to the British royal family. The Russians fought with the British (and Americans) in WW2. Their territory in Asia was historically speaking added in recent times during the period of European global expansion.

          • Disqus Bolloqus

            It’s capital city and origins are in Europe. The Russians are descended from the Russ, Swedish Vikings who emigrated down the river systems in medieval times. The Romanov royal family start elated to the Britush royal family. The Russians fought with the British (and Americans) in WW2. There territory in Asia was historically speaking added in recent times during the period of European global expansion.

        • diqi

          So Anthony Charles Lynton Blair wasn’t Scottish?, You must know him, Bush’s Poodle, he took the rest of the UK in to the second Gulf War and Afganistan.

          • AWoLsco

            “So Anthony Charles Lynton Blair wasn’t Scottish?”

            Do you really think he is Scottish?…. seriously?
            He certainly doesn’t sound it or act like it. I always had him marked down as one of indeterminate origin, not affiliated to any primitive tribal group, just a free spirit, beholden to none….a modern version of a spiv.

          • Mary Ann

            He really really is Scottish, sorry.

          • AWoLsco

            “He really really is Scottish, sorry.”

            Noo (now) haud on (hold on) missus( Mrs or Miss).
            I was born and brocht( brought) up in Glesca Toon(Glasgow Town) and can identify a true Scot better than youse (you), ye ken.( you know)

            Ah didnae ( did not) ken(know) his faither(father) and neither did ony (any) freend (friend) or acquaintance o’ mine. So, by definition, he canna ( cannot) be a Scotsman.

          • Mary Ann

            My mother-in-law was born in Tayport, my husband breaks into broad Scots as soon as we cross the border. It’s Mrs. BTW Did you know my mother-in-law, she would insist she was a true Scot, she even went back to Scotland to die.

          • AWoLsco

            ……and after a’ that blether, ye still think Bliar is a Scotsman?

          • diqi

            I don’t think he is Scottish, he was born in Edinburgh and educated there.

            Or do you define a Scotsman differently? Perhaps you’d rather not include any Scotsman who had a hand in governing the UK at any time as that would spoil the purity of your anti-English rants?

    • English Patriot

      What “arrogance” is that then? Giving you billions of pounds a year to keep your sh*tty little country solvent? When we English finally get rid of you idle, whining parasite scum we won’t see it as a betrayal but a blessed relief.

      • AWoLsco

        300 yrs ago…..in the English parliament.

        “Mr Speaker, sir, I wish it to be known that to all right -minded Englishmen, union with Scotland is anathema.Like weeds on fertile soil, they will multiply in England to such an extent that there will be more of the blighters here, than in all Polonia.”
        ( at that time there were about 30,000 Scottish families settled in and around Danzig….or Gdansk…. if you prefer.)

        • English Patriot

          Can’t see much chance of the “blighters” multiplying now, they are too busy gorging themselves on deep fried Mars bars and heroin.

          • AWoLsco

            “gorging themselves on deep fried Mars bars and heroin.”

            Yes…but you missed out the Buckfast and the glue-sniffing.
            Meanwhile busloads of English dead-beats, third-raters and MI5 agents are sent to the outer limits to de-Scotticise Scotland and keep a close watch on things…just in case things get REALLY serious..

            “I say Smithers, just what are we going to do with Cholmondley- Smythe. That’s another plumb contract lost due to his ineptitude. Going to cost an arm and a leg giving him the heave -ho.”

            ” What about that office we have in Scotland, the one we’re thinking of closing. There’s just no money up there and we’re miles from the markets. Put old Chummers in charge of that and he can moulder away there until he retires or the place gets closed down.He can’t harm the company too much if parked up there in Hicksville, well out of the way”

            “Splendid stuff, Smithers. Just the ticket. Scotland it is.”

            …and so yet another English dead-beat, replete with old boiler, snotty nosed sprogs and a pathological obsession with cricket, wends his way north-ward to be put out to grass…and unwittingly act as a subversive of Scottish culture.

          • English Patriot

            “I say Binky, the Sweaties want their own country.”
            “What? We can’t have that! Where are our ghillies and footmen going to come from? Set the porridge traps quick before it’s too late!”

    • Jacobi

      I’m hoping I’ll, be expelled as a residual Brit in the land of my birth, to the South Downs. Any chance. Would opt for parts of Norfolk however?

      • Tickertapeguy

        Had to Google to find out where South Downs are. Guess there is a difference between South and North Downs where the “White Cliffs of Dover” are: So I will sing a few lines of

        There’ll be bluebirds over
        The white cliffs of Dover,
        Tomorrow, just you wait and see.

        There’ll be love and laughter
        And peace ever after.
        Tomorrow, when the world is free

        The shepherd will tend his sheep.
        The valley will bloom again.
        And Jimmy will go to sleep
        In his own little room again.

        There’ll be bluebirds over
        The white cliffs of Dover,
        Tomorrow, just you wait and see.

        • Jacobi

          I f you lived in this bloody grey cold wet windy Godforsaken part of His earth, you’d love to be there with your bins watching for the swallows to arrive!
          Herself, English wants to stay here. Discuss!

          • Tickertapeguy

            Got your comment.

            thought about it a bit and realized that the weather maybe bad (could be a lot worse if the Gulf stream does not go over Great Britain)
            but the people of Great Britain made the nation a beautiful place
            I have seen heavenly places on earth made into dumps and I mean real dumps with a man made h*ll where once was a paradise. Hope you see it that way.

          • Jacobi

            EP is being a bit nasty to you. I suspect he’s from West Lancashire!
            Now that’s it! Must get ready to go out into the bloody rain again.

          • Tickertapeguy

            EP put some valid points. Great debating with EP. consider this. If the Gulf stream does not hit Great Britain it would be colder than the Arctic.

          • Tickertapeguy

            P.S it is a great place to wear tweed

  • mike_in_brum

    Vote Out! Leave the EU! Repatriate EU migrants! Reverse decades of pro-immigrants legislation! Put a straitjacket on that dwarf Sturgeon!

    • Disqus Bolloqus

      If we vote out, the Conservstive Government will fall. There will be an early GE,the victors will be Corbyn-Sturgeon. More immigration, break up of UK, end of nuclear weapons.

    • Nicholas_Keen

      Not the way to win the argument.

    • Mary Ann

      And when 2 Million British people are repatriated from the EU where are you going to put them, so many of them pensioners as well, how’s the NHS going to look after them, try engaging your brain.

      • oversixty

        Those living abroad will not have to leave…

        • Mary Ann

          They probably will not be thrown out, although it is possible. They went there as EU citizens, if Britain leaves the EU they will no longer be EU citizens they will be foreigners. For the pensioners the biggest problem will probably be a lose of state health care, which is part of the EU treaty, so they will only continue to get state health care if the British government and the various other governments agree. The younger people will need to apply for work permits. You cannot say that they will not have to leave, you are only guessing, we are all guessing, even the Foreign Office doesn’t know what will happen. It is going to take years to sort out the mess.

          • michael

            “It is going to take years to sort out the mess” … better make a start then.

            -Shame that the threat of chaos is our chaotic administration’s prime ‘project fear’ directive.
            The PM has made this perfectly clear, as he deems civil service intervention to be strictly verboten.

          • Aberrant_Apostrophe

            Jeez, why do Remainiacs always look on the most pessimistic scenarios of Brexit?

            There are still Greenland citizens living in the EU. Under the Vienna Convention on the Law of Treaties 1969, anybody already legally settled in a foreign country, or who has property there, will have their current arrangements protected. As for health care, the UK has existing reciprocal agreements with many non-EU countries, such as Australia and New Zealand and all of the EEA countries, so it wouldn’t exactly be a stretch to extend that to the rest of the EU – you never know, the NHS might extract its collective digit and start billing other EU countries for the services it provides to other EU citizens.

      • Sue Smith

        Again, your literacy is problematic. Where is the question mark?

        • Mary Ann

          Now you really are being petty.

          • Sue Smith

            It’s a credibility issue.

      • sfin

        Actually it’s about 1.2 million British in the EU, against 3 million EU nationals in Britain.

        So, under your doomsday scenario – we’ll free up 1.8 million ‘places to put people’.

        I say “doomsday scenario” because I think the majority of people will remain where they are post Brexit. The only one’s leaving Britain will be the benefit claimants (not such a bad thing). Benefits in most European countries are contributory (i.e you have to have paid into the system before you can claim) – so we’re not going to see a flood of British expats, the vast majority of whom (like me) are net contributors to the state they choose to live in, returning home.

        • Mary Ann

          I prefer to believe the Foreign Office.

          • Paul Wonnacott

            I don’t know the figures but I bet there’s a lot more Brits in Spain than Spaniards here, Portuguese will be about evens, most Spanish and a lot of Portuguese emigres go to South America

          • Mary Ann

            I used to know quite a few Spaniards working in Britain but I agree, I am sure that there are far more of us there than them here. It would probably be the Pensioners living in Spain that would have to come back, the Spanish government have been complaining about it costing them £300 million a year in unrecoverable expenses to look after our olds, wouldn’t surprise me if they chucked out the British just to make the Catalonians think twice for voting to leave Spain, I expect a lot of Catalonians live in Spain,outside Catalonia, as we have Scots living in England. Mind you, the SNP didn’t care about them. So many possibilities. Talk about voting blind.

          • Paul Wonnacott

            A lot of Europeans I know and have lived and worked with in London have gone elsewhere, if not home to another country in the last 3-5 years.not just Europeans but Brazilians, Argentinians and South Africans. All tech skilled and or artistic /creative people, no benefit scroungers. it was a nice place to come and live and work 10-15 years ago. They have moved on now to places where they are appreciated like California or Australia, along with a lot of our own people.In the last 5 yrs I know 3 Brits gone to Oz.
            I know a white S African woman lived here 30+ years gone back, a Yemeni Jewish girl who hates Israel, lived here 25 years, outstanding clothes designer gone to Bali
            Our thriving TV and Film industry would collapse without European skilled immigrants, we don’t train enough of our kids to do the sound. lighting, camera tech jobs. many come from Ireland who have been for years. Ireland also trains a surplus of doctors and nurses and we too few. If you can find an NHS dentist these days odds on they’re Polish, again we don’t train enough of our own to do all the nice jobs.
            We expect our kids to be happy as a menial drudge on minimum wage, because it’s cheaper to let someone else’s Taxpayer pay for the training, and we brain drain them.
            It’s a sad country where all too often the shelf stacker has a higher IQ than their Doctor but never got the opportunity to show it, they had to study some Mickey Mouse subject because there never have been enough places at medical school

          • AWoLsco

            The great thing about being a shelf-stacker or a dumper truck driver is that you don’t get sued. Every cloud has a silver lining.
            I remember this from my memories of old communist Czechoslovakia, where a dumper- truck driver got paid much the same as a specialist doctor.

            Guess what?
            Every young Czech wanted to be a dumper-truck driver.
            Only romantic, deluded noodle-heads wanted to be doctors…and there weren’t many of them.

          • sfin

            London is now France’s sixth largest city, by population.

          • sfin

            You prefer to believe the Foreign Office?

            Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! – oh you poor, poor thing!

            Thank you for my first belly laugh of the week!

          • Roger Hudson

            If you are in Europe after we vote ‘ leave’ just claim existing EEA rights, there can be no expulsions , under existing non-EU treaties.

          • Aberrant_Apostrophe

            If only HMRC were as freely giving of their data as the Foreign Office, then we would know how many EU migrants are currently living in Britain.

      • Jacobi

        We can send them to an Independent Scotland. Sturgeon seem desperate to get the population m up.

      • Roger Hudson

        ‘Fear’ nonsense, British people abroad in Europe (EU or not ) are protected by existing treaties.
        The European medical system was in place in lots of countries before those countries were in the EU. Don’t fear and vote ‘leave’.
        Ironically , if we vote ‘leave’ and any country tries to harm us we can take them to the European Court, which like the Council of Europe, is not the same as the EU. People are being conned into thinking all of Europe is the EU, it’s not.
        Love Europe but hate the EU.

    • AWoLsco

      “Put a straitjacket on that dwarf Sturgeon!”

      Why on earth would anyone in Birmingham care about Sturgeon in Scotland?

      • flippit

        Follow the money

        • AWoLsco

          “Follow the money”
          If in pursuit of money, my advice would be to try London first and Scotland last. My good friend Moshe Rabinowitz would tell you the same.

          • Enoch Powell

            Scotland is robbing London blind.

          • AWoLsco

            “Scotland is robbing London blind”

            Moshe doesn’t think so. He lives in London and hardly knows where Scotland is. He knows who is on the make and on the take.

    • The Patriarchy

      Put a muzzle on that tapping dog sturgeon.

  • Sue Smith

    “Rage, rage against the dying of the light…”. Perhaps you just need to issue ‘trigger warnings’ about rage and all will be OK.

  • frank davidson

    The leader of the LSE urges us to Remain in the EU because it would cause an implosion in Europe and the Americans would need to amount a type of Marshall plan. The Scott’s have a similar logic. We English therefore are asked to help out yet again and the cost to us is to continue being stuck in an undemocratic society paying £12 billions to prop up second rate Eastern European countries forfeiting our NHS etc. Have we not done enough? Philip of Spain, Napoleon, Bismark, Hitler. They are not worth it.

    • AWoLsco

      You lost in 1066. Get used to it. All you have ever have known is slavery and servility.

  • johnb1945

    The problem with referendums held over such monumental, fundamental issues of national interest is that the result can be close.

    The result of the Indyref, while decisive, was close enough to spur the old dog on.

    I fear the same may be true of the EU referendum.

    As in the Indyref, the clear mandate to do one thing or the other will not be given and the issue will simply be reinvigorated, becoming ever more divisive.

    Oh well, happy days……

    • Mary Ann

      They only happened/ing because Cameron was weak.

      • Paul Wonnacott

        So True, such things should not be an electioneering ploy, at least a referendum is not a legally binding thing, it is no more than a state organised opinion poll. it would have to be a t least 60-40, preferably 80-20 one way or the other to base a decision on it.
        They all go on about democracy yet we have the least democratic government of many because we have first past the post, which can give 22% of the electorate’s choice absolute power.

  • Mary Ann

    The Express will not allow me to post a link to the Citizens advice Bureau about the truth on how the NHS charges foreigners. With so called newspapers censoring such a reliable source of information how is anyone to make a rational decision on how to vote.

    • Roger Hudson

      All the papers I see have typical ‘elite’ interests in the trough that is the EU.

      • Paul Wonnacott

        The 2 pro Europe papers as I see it, Grauniad and The it’s called the “i” now, have small readerships, the rest, with lots of readers, are Leavers

  • Actually its worse than Alex suggests because if the EU superstate succeeds in gaining our final surrender there is little prospect of any democratic control in our nation in our life times.

    The alternative will eventually be very unpleasant indeed.

    • The Laughing Cavalier

      The European project will break up of its own accord, probably in the 2030s. You have only to live until then.

      • Its the Yugoslavia type break up we should all fear.

        Empires rarely die without killing a lot of people in the process.

  • Enoch Powell

    ‘So you’re just not into Europe, are you? Well, what about me?’

    The correct answer of course being that the EU is not Europe. It’s a politically and financially disastrous bureaucratic dictatorship that has been imposed on the freedom loving peoples of Europe and has led to them being invaded by the worst and most violent sociopaths from other continents and demonised for being born white. It has ripped apart countries such as Greece, and turned a relatively stable continent of powerful, advanced countries who more or less got on with each other, into a squabbling morass of hatred, blame, failure and fear. Even when Europe did go to war, we at least knew who was where, doing what and what direction to aim our rifles in. Nowadays, London is full of French, Barcelona is full of Brits, Greece is full of Syrians, Italy is full of Libyans, Sweden’s full of rapists and Romania’s empty.

    Europe? I sodding love Europe. The EU on the other hand needs to f*ck off and die.

    • AWoLsco

      ” Nowadays, London is full of French, Barcelona is full of Brits, Greece is full of Syrians, Italy is full of Libyans, Sweden’s full of rapists and Romania is practically empty.”

      Pay -back time.
      Europe marginalised and expelled the jews who feel they have the right to entry and prey on our society. You have willingly admitted them. Now you are going to pay for that. The jew is not like us. He never forgets….or forgives.

      • Roger Hudson

        Boris said he was having trouble convincing Londoners to vote leave, forgetting that a huge number of pro-EU ‘Londoners’ are just residents with no vote in the referendum.

        • Aberrant_Apostrophe

          They must the same people who vote ‘Remain’ in the Gallup and YouGov polls.

      • Cadwan

        “The jew is not like us. He never forgets….or forgives.”

        Judaism must be a very corrupting religion, the whole race exactly the same, no exceptions, no anti-zionists, no decent people, everyone utterly detestable!

        • AWoLsco

          “the whole race exactly the same, no exceptions, no anti-zionists, no decent people,”

          I have known more than a few jews in my time, and in my experience they are nothing like you suggest. However, if anyone reading this thinks goyim(that’s us British Christians) holocaust doubters, and skeptics of the jewish narrative are harshly dealt with…..you should see what happens to any jew who steps out of line……Wow!

          • Cadwan

            “holocaust doubters”

            So you think the extermination camps with their gas chambers were created by the invading armies for propaganda reasons?

  • WilliamJ38748

    There will be no food, water or electricity in Britain if we leave the EU.

    So I am voting to remain.

    • AWoLsco

      “There will be no food, water or electricity in Britain if we leave the EU.”

      A daunting and miserable prospect for an Englishman…but not for a Scotsman.
      There is plenty food on the hill and in the rivers, beaches and seas.

      Water? ……..Water, water everywhere…and absolutely tons, fresh and potable, to drink.
      Electricity?…… Tomorrow, I could rig up a small hydroelectric scheme, not to power a light bulb, but sufficient to supply an entire village.

    • Alltaxationistheft

      Nor will the sun rise ever again !

  • Jacobi

    Yes a referendum can have some lasting effect, but not indefinite. Darien 2 will soon come along and it is important to take the long view.

    Besides, what isn’t falling apart these days? Personally I’m resigned to becoming an ex-pat in the land of my birth and Herself in the land of her adoption. She’s East Lancs.

    Our cs and gcs have promised to keep the food parcels coming and to write from time to time!

    But I see we, all 3.35 million of us if you exclude the English, Anglo-English and other foreigners, have a trade agreement with China and its 1.38 Billion or is it Trillion, can’t remember.

    How exciting. Roll on Darien 2

  • hobspawn

    “You’d look around the table and see friends who up until then you’d respected talk the most stunning rot. And they’d think the same of you.”

    I doubt their respect was much changed. After all, you’ve been publishing stunning rot for years.

  • Alltaxationistheft

    Off message but needs must now that the Telegraph has closed it’s comments facility.
    Cameron writes “When you look at the consequences of leaving this market, you have to ask, why on earth would we do this to ourselves, I believe it would be needless & reckless”
    Presumably he would judge any prime minister who had put such a dangerous option in play as being…..well “reckless”. !

    • Roger Hudson

      Tell Cameron that ‘self harm’ is better than staying and let the EU do the harming.

  • John Booth

    Some of my friends with whom I spar regularly on Facebook about the EU referendum have recently said that BREXIT is too big a risk and there is nothing much wrong with ‘Europe’ and best we stay in and it is only the older people like me who want to leave. In other words, “stronger, safer and better off in the EU” as Cameron and ‘Project Fear’ endless try and ram down our throats.

    However, BREXIT is not about leaving ‘Europe’. This is a deliberate spin by Cameron and the remainains. It is about the leaving the EU. We most certainly do have problems with the EU – it is undemocratic, corrupt, sclerotic and inefficient. The Euro is a disaster with the worst to come.

    We certainly have a problem with Europe too – the millions of migrants swamping the EU countries including the UK which we cannot control or stop whilst being members of the EU. Notwithstanding this issue, Europe is a great place, I love it. ‘Love Europe, hate the EU’ is my motto.

    There is certainly a bias towards ‘leave’ by the older (my) generation. We remember life before EU membership and perhaps surprisingly, there were no plagues of locusts, widespread pestilence or firstborn snatched from our families – which is sort of what ‘Project Fear’ is trying to scare us into thinking would happen if we left. Also, my generation remember clearly that we were lied to in 1972 by Heath and 1975 by the Establishment in the referendum for the EEC. Never was it explained what we were truly voting for (a political union, not an economic/trading union) and the ultimate aim of the EU:

    “Europe’s nations should be guided towards the superstate without their people understanding what is happening. This can be accomplished by successive steps, each disguised as having an economic purpose, but which will eventually and irreversibly lead to federation.”

    Jean Monnet, Founding Father of the European Union.

    Regarding the ‘uncertainty’ of leaving the EU – I agree, there would be some uncertainty following BREXIT but there will also be uncertainty if we remain because the EU is in such a mess, our borders are still open and the migrants (and the terrorists hidden amongst them) will keep coming. A vote to remain is NOT a vote for the status quo. The EU is all about ‘ever-closer union’. We would be helpless now we have no veto, with QMV and one 28th influence inside the EU. Once Turkey joins, with millions of Muslims eventually able to move freely through Europe including the UK, the ‘uncertainty’ would dwarf any ‘uncertainty’ of life as an independent country!

    Would Germans really stop selling us cars, French, their wine etc by blocking new trade deals or deliberately slowing negotiations down? It would be in their interests to tie up trade deals (via the EU of course) asap. We would surely tie up new trade deals with the wider world (and growing faster than the EU economy is) in quick time too.

    Anyway, after all the above, I would say this – no one really knows, so yes there would be uncertainty but whether we gain a bit, lose a bit, what does that really matter? For me, it’s entirely emotional – do I want to be governed by unelected, unaccountable foreign bureaucrats who I didn’t vote for and cannot remove or by elected politicians I can vote for and can throw out and be a sovereign country again?

    No, I do not want the former (and incidentally, neither does my daughter because she has taken the time and effort to understand the issues, unlike most young people who have been fed pro-EU propaganda all their lives).

    I simply don’t understand anyone who wants our country to be subsumed by a Supranational Government, unelected and unaccountable, a one-party dictatorship. This is no longer a secret. This is the official aim of the EU and what will happen to us if we remain in.

    23rd June – Independence Day!

    • Roger Hudson

      Turkey can never get into the EU past the veto of a number of countries, it only takes one.
      Cameron and Co. always like to conflate Europe ( a nice bunch of cultured countries) with the EU (a load of superstate corrupt politicos) to confuse voters.
      Vote ‘leave’.

      • John Booth

        Yes, agreed. Vote ‘leave’ and get our independence back!

      • Aberrant_Apostrophe

        Except the EU has form, otherwise how else did Greece join the EuroZone? I wouldn’t put it past them to bribe the anti-Turkey countries – with our money – to vote ‘yes’.

  • Roger Hudson

    Whatever the result on June 23rd the tightness of the vote will poison the atmosphere in British and EU politics for a generation. How will some people ever be able to work with the other sides supporters again?
    If ‘leave’ lose I certainly will completely work to screw over the EU at every possible occasion, over migrants, the Euro and Greece, the Turkish veto, Ukraine and all the other bits of EU nonsense.

    • AWoLsco

      “I certainly will completely work to screw over the EU at every possible occasion,”

      You won’t be able to do that, at least, not for long. You’ll be identified as ‘an enemy of the state’,lose your job, and possibly be moved to what you perceive to be a foreign country, but to a Europhile and communist/jew/ mason then Europe is just one big happy family of cattle.
      In practice of course, you will be completely disoriented and thus rendered utterly ineffectual, having to learn a new language and figure out who’s who, and what’s what.
      That is the way totalitarianism operates.

      I saw it in operation in East Germany. Every tenth person was a grubby little informer and snitch with direct links to the Stasi.
      The Berlin wall did not come down because suddenly they thought communism was a bad thing.
      The Berlin wall came down because Western Europe was well down the road to communism or monopolistic capitalism…..they are the same things.
      The English are obsessed with keeping up with the Joneses. I can give them some tips…..become a snitch or ‘grass’ and liaise with the local police(Stasi).
      Won’t be long before you are kingpin of the neighbourhood.

      • Cadwan

        “I can give them some tips for surviving, even thriving, in a communist society…..become a snitch or ‘grass’ and liaise with the local police(Stasi).

        Won’t be long before you are kingpin of the neighbourhood.”

        Good to know your background.

        • AWoLsco

          “Good to know your background”

          Sure. There’s always one or two johnnies that have crossed the divide, by luck, chance or by design, and have the inside story.
          They are the propagandist’s nightmare.

      • Disqus Bolloqus

        Pure fantasy

        • AWoLsco

          “Pure fantasy”

          I wish it was. I really wish it was.

    • thomas_paine2

      The losing side will have to live with it and get used to life outside the EU.

  • daveyy

    Here in Quebec we have lived through two independence referenda in my lifetime. Both were exactly as the author describes : divisive, pitting family members, neighbours, work colleagues and friends against each other. The experience is enough to make the very idea of another referendum anathema to a large majority of citizens, whatever their leanings.

    I hate to say this to UK voters, but the benefits of either staying or leaving the EU will never outweigh the permanent divide amongst friends, neighbours or family that such an exercise creates. I cannot agree more with the author about those effects in Scotland as they were very similar here.

    • AWoLsco

      What a load of old rubbish……..all this load of old bollocks about dividing families and communities……So what?…… In the end, a man, or woman, must be guided by their conscience and what they feel comfortable with…..and to the devil with everything else!
      Scotland has existed for one thousand two hundred years
      Scotland will be free, once again, as is her natural state……one day.
      Bugger Quebec, and Canada, run by the Bronfman gang.

      • daveyy

        and your point is ? All I am saying is the divisiveness should not be underestimated. People in favour of an independent Scotland or Quebec or the UK from the EU for that matter, should not be blind to the reaction of a large portion of society which will want to avoid the arguments, the bitterness, the angst created by the very process.

        Not sure about your comment on the Bronfmans, they made their fortune illegally selling whisky to the USA during prohibition, which makes them rich descendants of crooks.

        • AWoLsco

          “should not be blind to the reaction of a large portion of society which
          will want to avoid the arguments, the bitterness, the angst created by
          the very process.”

          Where have you been, man? There is nothing new in those islands about families and communities being divided……Royalists and parliamentarians, Protestants and catholics, Highlander and lowlander, Huggy-fluffy, pinko communists and dour, xenophobic nationalists, Shrill feminists and quiescent, brooding patriarchs( gathering their brows like gathering storm, nursing their wrath to keep it warum). Rainbow homos and silent, sullen straights.

          “makes them rich descendants of crooks”

          Exactly…and the fact they are jews is immaterial.

          .

          • daveyy

            bye bye troll

          • AWoLsco

            Yes. . Everyone that disagrees with me is a ‘troll’
            Bye bye simpleton.

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