Obama’s wrong. Americans should back Brexit – and so should you

Because Americans love Britain, and because we are a presumptuous lot, we often advise the United Kingdom on its foreign policy. And not only the UK, but Europe. Successive US administrations have urged European nations to form a United States of Europe as an answer to the question attributed to Henry Kissinger: ‘Who do I call if I want to call Europe?’

The latest such unrequested advice was offered to your Prime Minister by no less a foreign-policy maven — see his successes in Libya, Middle East, China, Crimea — than Barack Obama. The outgoing president informed David Cameron that his administration wants to see ‘a strong United Kingdom in a strong European Union’. He seemed to assume that, in the words of the Sinatra ballad, you can’t have one without the other.

But many of us here in the US are rooting for Brexit, and not just because we want what is best for Britain. We think Brexit would be in America’s interests.

Britain has long been America’s most valuable ally. During the second world war, it was Britain that held the fort against Germany while we dithered. Not France, which quickly surrendered. Not Italy, which opportunistically lined up with Hitler. Not Spain, which that wily fascist Franco kept out of the war. You get the point: because Britain was in a position to act on its own, without consulting any so-called allies, and because it was blessed with Winston Churchill as its prime minister and war leader, as well as a willingness of its parliamentarians from all parties to cease their inter-party wars and concentrate on the more important battle, we in America benefited from a period in which we geared up our military and industry to enter the war and relieve Britain of some of its burden.

It wasn’t the last time we would be in Britain’s debt. When President George W. Bush decided to settle accounts with Saddam Hussein, you stood at our side, at least until Gordon Brown withdrew support by pulling your troops out of Basra. In retrospect, some of you consider your involvement in Iraq a mistake. But from our vantage point, even in retrospect, it was a sign that we can count on Britain to have our backs.

No one on this side of the Atlantic has any doubts that a Britain entangled in the European Union will prove a less reliable ally. Some of you might think that a good reason to stay in. But if you value continued tight cooperation between our security and military services; if you want to disassociate yourselves from the anti-American witch-hunt that has become the cornerstone of European Commission competition and tax policies; if you want to be free to cooperate with American multinationals considering residence in the UK, then Brexit is the best choice.

Americans also have an interest in keeping regulation out of the financial sector. We have our bank-bashers, as do you, and that is a good thing for both countries, since genuflecting to bankers and brokers has proved disastrous. But like you, we believe in markets, recognising that they allocate capital more efficiently than the cleverest Brussels bureaucrat. We prefer your great Scot, Adam Smith, to the current EU darling, France’s Thomas Piketty. We prefer a tax system that recognises, at least most of the time, that punishing the rich is not an effective way to tackle inequality. From our point of view, that means we prefer dealing with America’s regulatory counterparts in Britain to those in Brussels.

Almost everyone agrees that one of the cures for the world’s ills would be more rapid economic growth. America’s ability to remain an engine of such growth is enhanced by close relations with countries that are not wedded to the job-crushing EU or reliant on a currency that, without major and unlikely changes in the EU governing structure, will lurch from crisis to crisis.

Britain is such a country. We need you as a trading partner, as a voice for freer markets in a variety of world forums and as an uninhibited partner when councils of war must be held. Yes, the current US administration has not been a bastion of strength, but even so we have continued to bear a disproportionate share of the Nato defence budget. Obama’s days in office are numbered, after which it is reasonable to expect that we will recapture our reputation as a reliable ally, unless there is an improbable victory for our very own Jeremy Corbyn — the socialist Bernie Sanders.

Everyone agrees that we live in dangerous times, which make it in every country’s interest to maintain its flexibility of action. America’s flexibility would be enhanced were we able to deal with a Britain unshackled from the EU bureaucracy and its lumbering decision-making machinery.

That’s where our interests lie. Our hope is that British voters will consider those interests in June. Whether putting those interests on the scales will affect your votes we will never know. Nor will we know whether such consideration tips the scales in favour of or against Brexit. Those of us who love your country for its past contributions to our culture, political institutions and security will wish you well whatever you decide.

Irwin Stelzer is a fellow of the Hudson Institute, a visiting fellow of Nuffield College, Oxford, and a columnist for the Sunday Times.

TaggedBarack Obama, Brexit, EU, EU referendum, Iraq war, US foreign policy

Show comments

willybach

For no particular reason this article prompted a question in my mind: would it not be in the Scot Nats interest to strategically support Brexit (probably in a clandestine way), then they would have their excuse to demand another Scottish independence referendum and apply for EU membership as an independent country?
- Bardirect
  
  Such a dilemma wouldn’t arise if SNP had any coherent principles. Beyond the notion that the English must pay they ran out of ideas.
- Disqus Bolloqus
  
  Yes it would
- UKSteve
  
  But entry to the EU now includes joining the Schengen area AND the single currency – and the Scots Natsis don’t want to ditch the pound. Remember the referendum campaign, with extreme arrogance they just assumed they could keep the £ !
- Dominic Stockford
  
  Yes. Which is why Sturgeonperson is not particularly noticeable in the campaign to stay in. She would like Scotland to vote in, and the overall answer to be leave. Then she gets all her Christmasses at once.
  - David S
    
    Not sure she cares what the overall result is – I imagine that as annoying the English is so high up her list of priorities she would be very happy if the English voted to leave by a narrow margin and an overwhelming stay vote in Scotland was enough to swing the overall result. That way she would not have to deal with the catastrophic consequences of independence for Scotland but instead could gloat at our discomfiture.
  - Jonah Varlik
    
    Sturgeonperson. Thinks: Large scaly fish with legs and a boy’s hairdo.
- kentchap
  
  Indeed. Vote Brexit if you want to break up the UK.
Frank

Thank you (not that we really needed reminding that Obama has a pretty glib view of the world). It is a pity that Israel also doesn’t understand that supporting the “remain campaign” is not doing any favours to Britain, or the rest of Europe, which also needs to free itself from the dead hand of the EU.
Israel appears to think that preserving the EU will somehow ensure that Jews are safer in Europe – has Israel noticed that it is the EU that is proposing to allow Turkish citizens visa free travel / residency in the EU? Has Israel noticed that it is the EU that is incapable of solving its immigration problem? Is Israel enjoying just a tiny bit of schadenfreude at the sight of the EU failing to cope with hundreds of thousands of muslim illegal immigrants?
- kentchap
  
  Visa free travel in the EU is restricted to 180 days from the first day of entry in an EU country and DOES NOT mean residency as you’re implying.
  
  What is the connection between the safety of Jews in Europe and the proposed visa free travel arrangements with Turkey? There’s none.
scampy

British troops were forced out of Basra at night with their tails between their legs at night undercover of darkness?
- Father Todd Untious
  
  US troos were forced out of Vietnam in a more unceremonious fashion.
  - MickC
    
    Indeed; since 1945 the only war the USA has won, in the sense of achieving its objective of imposing its will and solution on the adversary, is the Kuwait Conflict. That was done with the help of many allies, especially those in that region who were indispensible in ensuring stability afterwards.
    
    Whilst the USA can inflict huge damage, death and destruction it is unable to maintain stability thereafter without occupying the defeated adversary for decades. It will not do so, as Obama has rightly recognised. The cost of physical empire, in treasure and blood is one it will not bear.
    
    The US empire is enforced by its control of the world financial system, but that pre-supposes entities which use that system. Many adversaries do not, and indeed that system will have competitors in the future.
    
    The power of the USA is waning, mainly because it has been used unwisely.
    - Dominic Stockford
      
      I think you are a little unfair – they did manage to successfully invade Grenada…
      - Lawrence James.
        
        They did – ‘From the hallss of Montezuma to the shores of Grenada !’
      - Brian Jones
        
        Don’t mock the Americans, because whether you like it or not without them we would undoubtedly have all been speaking German since about 1943.
- UKSteve
  
  Nope – it was broad daylight – covered on the news.
- Freddythreepwood
  
  Horse manure! And you seem to be a bit confused by the meaning of ‘night’. Darkness normally does come at night, just as lightness comes with day.
MickC

The United States has only ever looked after the interests of the United States, rightly so.
It is past time that the UK government looked after the interests of the UK. Those interests are not best served by being subsumed in the EU, or as a vassal of the USA.
- No Man’s Land
  
  Quite, no permanent friends only permanent interests.
- Migru Ghee
  
  Rightly or wrongly, only ever looking after your own interests will no longer cut it. The value of good, soft PR and making the right moral argument at the appropriate time is always more likely to win over those who were previously on the fence. See the Trident debate where the grounds are shifting fast.
- sarah
  
  Wrongly so. For all the US talk of being a good Christian country you really do come across as being greedy and selfish with having absolutely no intention of helping the poor or needy. How is that ‘right’? Suddenly it’s only ‘right’ to help certain groups of people and turn your backs on others. I’m not religious but I’m pretty certain religious or not that’s a pretty disgusting way to live.
  - MickC
    
    I am English, not American. However, I fully understand that each country must attend to its own interests, not those of others.
- Mike Breen
  
  It’s not “rightly so” when they start stealing from us via an illegitimate tax code enforced on the world via a financial gun held to the head of the entire financial world. The world needs to stop worrying about North Korea and needs to wake up to the actions of the USA.
  - MickC
    
    The term “rightly so” means that a country is right to look after its own interests, not that it is morally “in the right”. Morality quite simply does not enter the equation.
    I rather think much of “the world” fully understands the actions of the USA, in particular Russia, China, and any others not indebted to it.
    Only “the West” seems oblivious to the realities…the leaders presumably because they will profit personally by it, and the people because they are lied to…. However, who really knows….
    - Mike Breen
      
      I think the vast majority of the world has absolutely no idea what the USA is doing via it’s illegitimate tax code, it’s abuse of it’s position as the holder of the worlds reserve currency, or any idea the costs and taxes it is inflicting on the entire planet.
      That’s before we even get in to the human cost of making life impossible for those you claim as your tax payers, and their children and families. I was always slightly sceptical of many actions of the USA in the past, but my mind is made up now.
Tom Hatherley

I hated this article. It is living in the past with the expectations that the UK should be a vassal for United States foreign policy. It’s really quite offensive, especially by sycophantically congratulating us for WW2 for ‘holding the fort’, until the USA swooped in to save us (haha). We now live in a globalised world where there is no such thing as complete sovereignty and you cannot completely control what happens within your borders… Hence we need to be progressive and look towards supranational organisations, like the EU, despite its flaws. Britain also isn’t the power it used to be and doesn’t have an empire. We have a larger voice as Europe and can influence policies more within the EU then out. The article is capped off brilliantly at the end with expected USA perceived superiority through scaremongering and pointing out we live in ‘dangerous times’, and that we need to consider what the USA wants to be safe. All the USA has done is made the world more dangerous and it’s time we stopped following orders. Thanks for the advice… next time you have any, put it in any rubbish bin you can see and we’ll be sure to give it a read.

(And maybe focus on your own country! It needs all the help it can get.)
- MickC
  
  I believe you are wrong. The EU is becoming the latest German empire, as is demonstrated by Merkel’s invitation to all of Syria to move to Germany, then insisting that the whole EU take them. I have no desire to be ruled by Germany; it has many virtues but once powerful its leaders lose all judgment….with disastrous consequences.
  
  The same can be said of the USA, of course.
  
  The UK should look after its own interests….not expect others to do so, they will not.
  - jennybloggs
    
    Germany is the dominant economic force and will deal with recalcitrant EU states as she sees fit. See Greece. We are best off out of the EU.
- UKSteve
  
  “All the USA has done is made the world more dangerous….”
  
  Exactly, right up to Bushmorons last day in office. And he stuck you with $11 trillion of debt for the pleasure.
  
  But that’s OK, because Obama has saved you country and not started any new wars. Excellent!
  
  Now, your Langley chaps were “invited” in to “help” with the 1975 referendum. Don’t even pack your bags this time; we’re Leaving, we’re wise to all the BS, and that’s that.
- Dominic Stockford
  
  In WWII we did indeed hold the fort, and remarkably well. It was staggering (genuinely miraculous) how we held out against such overwhelming odds whilst the appeasers both here and in the USA were put back in their boxes. But on our own we were never going to win, we had to have assistance, and that assistance did come from the USA. Firstly in the form of tanks and guns and ships, and secondly in the form of troops.
  
  And the idea that in those days, and in any days without the EU, we didn’t have to interact and co-operate with other countries is nonsensical. This country has never, since before the Romans, had any chance of being complete unaffected by the actions of those abroad. It has always had to think of, and work with, countries, nations and peoples across the word. And has always been dependent on how it did so. Globalisation is not a modern happening – it has been with us since Rome ruled the known world.
  - Lawrence James.
    
    This is true but so easily forgotten by those who confuse ‘sovereignty’ with isolationism, a constant flaw in the ‘exiteers’ arguments. Over the centuries, we have entered into agreements and alliances that allow outside events beyond our control to dictate policy. Ourr pledge to Poland in 1939 is one example and our promise to go to war in a Nato ally is attacked by Russia is another.
  - CRSM
    
    Yes, assistance did come in strength from the USA. But was the terrible cost worth it?
    - Brian Jones
      
      I’m not sure I understand what you mean by the terrible cost, do you mean in lives which was not the fault of the US or the cost of having to borrow equipment that we didn’t have and the US had no real necessity to provide free.
- Malcolm Stevas
  
  “We now live in a globalised world where there is no such thing as complete sovereignty and you cannot completely control what happens within your borders…”
  You mistake trading arrangements such as the WTO, for surrendering a degree of sovereignty. If we as a sovereign state decided to sign up to this or that agreement – such as membership of NATO – we could do so. Now, these things are done in our name by a collective of EU states.Control our own borders? Of course we darn well can! Well, given the political will to do so, which means getting rid of quisling vacillatory social democrats like Cameron – and of course quitting the EU.
  - Mary Ann
    
    North Korea controls what goes on inside its own borders.
    
    One of the things about agreements is that BOTH sides have to agree so we cannot have everything our own way.
    - Malcolm Stevas
      
      Not wholly sure what you mean – indeed, I’m not sure you know what you mean… N.Korea is neither here nor there. A bilateral agreement between us and another country is one thing: but our being held over a barrel by 27 other countries in the EU is something else entire. I advise you to research the history of UK protests, vetos, attempts at “renegotiation” (Hah!) and think again.
      - Mary Ann
        
        N Korea was tongue in cheek, an example of a country that rejects globalisation.
- AdAstra100
  
  ‘Britain has long been America’s most valuable ally. During the second world war, it was Britain that held the fort against Germany while we dithered.’
  Have you got the right article??? Where is the reference to saving? Seems to me the article is spot on from the extract above, except for the second Gulf War which was the touch paper for the situation in the ME today. I was in the first Gulf war and have no issues there.
  
  We have a 1 in 27 voice in the EU Commune(poliburo) and this, with qualified majority voting, is why we have lost control of our country despite the experience and wisdom of a 800 years of democracy; something which most of the EU States sadly lack.
  
  If you don’t believe that we are living in dangerous times, then I suggest you get your head out of the sand and read a bit more.
- Brian Jones
  
  It’s really quite offensive, especially by sycophantically congratulating us for WW2 for ‘holding the fort’, until the USA swooped in to save us (haha).
  It may be offensive but bit is a fact , without US logistic support prior to them declaring war on Germany and Japan and their commitment of manpower once they did it’s highly unlikely that we could have beaten the Axis.
Tickertapeguy

One reason why D.C. believes in playing such a major role in the internal affairs of Europe can be seen in the banks that make up the US Federal Reserve, one of the most powerful (private) organizations in the world. The banks include:

Below is the list of the owners of the 12 Central Banks:

– Rothschild Bank of London
– Rothschild Bank of Berlin
– Lazard Brothers of Paris
– Israel Moses Seif Banks of Italy
– Warburg Bank of Amsterdam
– Warburg Bank of Hamburg
– Lehman Brothers of New York
– Kuhn Loeb Bank of New York
– Goldman Sachs of New York
– Chase Manhattan Bank of New York

In all, there are about 300 very powerful, partly foreign individuals that owns the Federal Reserve.

Outside of that issue we Americans should support Brexit.
- CRSM
  
  And what can we tell today from that list of names children?
  - Tickertapeguy
    
    “Haba nagila haba nagila haba Nagila…..”
Per Kurowski

Might a New English Language Empire be the Brentrance for a Brexit?

http://perkurowski.blogspot.com/1999/04/a-new-english-language-empire.html
- enoch arden
  
  It would be much more natural than the idiotic idea to keep in a European empire people of drastically different cultures who do not have a common language (except English). An empire is based on a common civilisation.
Disqus Bolloqus

What more would you expect from a Kenyan Muslim Child Molester who daily holds séance with Adolf?
John Andrews

Thank you Irwin. I will vote Brexit.
And who do I call when I want to call The Americas?
enoch arden

Don’t worry. Trump will approve Brexit.
- Mary Ann
  
  Which should help the inners, most British people dislike Trump.
  - enoch arden
    
    Do you mean that most British people support the Mexican illegals and Moslem immigration to the US? Is it your personal statistics?
  - AdAstra100
    
    Evidence?
    - Mary Ann
      
      I have met one our two people who favour Brexit but nobody who likes Trump.
      - goodsoldier
        
        They don’t tell you knowing that you are a rabid Lefty and troll. No use stimulating a troll.
      - Ron
        
        small minds always resort to insults soldier
      - blackjack
        
        you said most dislike, thats a lot different to who likes him, i dont ‘like ‘ him , but if americans go for him it has nowt to do with us, i dont blame them voting for trump. . .
  - Brian Jones
    
    Most British people aren’t even remotely interested in Trump or any other US presidential hopeful.
  - blackjack
    
    i dont, how many have you asked ?
- kentchap
  
  Huh? Who cares what that idiot will approve?
  - enoch arden
    
    Do you hope for Hilly?
    - kentchap
      
      I definitely don’t hope for idiots born with a silver spoon up their backsides claiming to have worked hard to get to the top like Trump.
      - enoch arden
        
        Quite interesting. What kind of “top” and what kind of “work” is one supposed to do hard to get there? Where was Hilly known working except in the bedroom?
      - kentchap
        
        I’ll let you worry about who your ideal US presidential candidate should be like. Nevertheless, Trump is a cretin.
      - enoch arden
        
        And what is your benchmark? If compared with Hilly he is Spinoza.
      - kentchap
        
        Is he? Maybe he should make it more obvious.
      - enoch arden
        
        It is easy. Do you know a single statement made by Hilly that wasn’t stupid? Quote it if you do.
      - Janet
        
        kentchap, So who mistook your treasure for a snail?
      - Ron
        
        I thought that all US presidents were short on brains
MC

Barak “my muslim faith” Obama has dumped on all former US allies: UK, Egypt, Israel, etc. At the same time he has supported the Muslim Bortherhood in Egypt and the radical islamists in Syria.
.
He said is Islam was the ROOT cause of enlightenment in Europe and Western countries “must support muslims to practice their faith as they see fit”.
.
He has no leg to stand on in the Brexit debate and must be ignored.
The Prez

During the second world war, America treated Britain ruthlessly, extracting huge sums of treasure in exchange for its help and stripping us of our empire in the process. We ended up in such a weak position in the 70s partly as a consequence of this, so you’ll forgive me if I don’t really care what the US wants for Britain. That said, it’s good to know there are some among you who are on our side.
- Brian Jones
  
  Very ruthlessly by giving us the lives of so many of it’s young men. It’s time some people actually considered what the US did give us and realised that in selling us goods at knock down prices made it possible to wage war. As someone who lived through the war and saw the reality of post war Britain I will be forever grateful to the US. It really disgust me that the younger generation don’t seem to have the good grace to accept the fact that the US didn’t actually have to do anything and even after Pearl Harbour were still not obligated to help us fight the European war.
  - Tom Cullem
    
    You know what’s odd about all this anti-Yank stuff, is that, as I mentioned in another post on this thread, I have friends in the American southwest and the New York/New England area, and they have enormous affection for this country, they have real feeling for it. And while they aren’t young, they aren’t elderly WWII veterans, either.
  - blackjack
    
    the US needs war like a junkie needs smack
- Tom Cullem
  
  May I ask what history book you are reading?
  
  We ended up in a weak position in the 70s because the days of Empire could not possibly have survived much longer. The US didn’t strip us of India and the rest. We made our own mistakes, refusing to modernise until far too late. We elected Thatcher, we elected Brown, we elected Blair. I don’t care what the US wants for Britain, either. But I’m not idiot enough to hold them responsible for everything that happened here after WWII,
  - blackjack
    
    you must have read the american version of ‘prez’s book
Jonah Varlik

Obama is wrong. HE’s been wrong on every single thing he’s ever pronounced on, including where he was born.
- Mary Ann
  
  You can fake birth certificates but not contemporaneous birth announcements published in Hawaii newspapers.
  - AdAstra100
    
    If he was white and the same issues were raised he would have been impeached!
    - Ron
      
      His grandmother was present at his birth she claims and she had never left Africa!
- Tom Cullem
  
  Oh good grief if you want to make a sensible argument about Obama’s policies, do so. This idiocy about his birthplace, as if the FBI hadn’t checked him out thoroughly the moment he announced his candidacy, is tinfoil hat stuff. Make a logical argument or drop it.
  - blackjack
    
    your naive
    - kentchap
      
      And you can’t write.
      - blackjack
        
        funny that because you’ve read something ive written, hmnnn
      - kentchap
        
        I could infer the gramatically correct version of what you intended to write.
      - blackjack
        
        but that isnt what you wrote, bye bye now
      - kentchap
        
        Cheerio.
Conway

“Barack Obama … informed David Cameron that his administration wants to see ‘a strong United Kingdom in a strong European Union’.” Thereby showcasing his complete ignorance of the EU project.
trobrianders

Lefties are aroused by large concentrations of power like global capital or the EU have amassed. They cannot build power bases of their own and so they dream of stealing from others. They are hyenas.
- Tom Cullem
  
  Well, apparently they aren’t aroused enough, as the left has argued from Brown to Miliband and now to Corbyn and Cooper, to stay in a “reformed” Europe. Even Corbyn, a former Eurosceptic, now refuses to come out and endorse LEAVE.
  The reason, of course, is that what really gets the Left off are their “internationalist” fantasies. They see the EU as the way to break down ethnic (read: white) European cultures and meld us all into one entity sitting around the fireside playing Happy Families together.
  When labour issues, women’s right, wages, or pressure on local councils come up against multiculturalism (ooopsie, I meant “internationalism”), the latter wins every time.
  - trobrianders
    
    The Trump phenomena has blown the lid off that for sure. It’s entirely normal to scrutinise culture. We all do it. But lefties dishonestly turn legitimate conversations about culture into ones about race because they don’t want the backward cultures (and their left voting habits) exposed.
Marvin

This guy was only elected because of his ethnic make up. The black Americans just had to have a black man in power who will never be intellectual enough to run the supposedly the most powerful country in the world. What on earth would he know about world affairs?
- Brian Jones
  
  If all the black Americans had voted for him and all the white ones had voted against him he wouldn’t have been elected.
  - Tom Cullem
    
    All my friends in America (I have friends in the NY, New England, and southwestern area of the country), and yes, they are all white, voted for Obama. They were appalled by eight years of the Bush administration, by the selection of Sarah Palin as McCain’s VP running mate . . . it really isn’t all about skin colour, you know.
    - 100
      
      Yes it is, they have terminal cases of white-guilt disease and that’s why white liberals voted for Obama….not once, but twice. They are also the reason his legacy will be shaped by what they wish to believe, rather than based on reality.
      - kentchap
        
        P&^ss off, racist c^%t.
  - Marvin
    
    I am not white myself, and I am aware that there are many, many white people everywhere on the planet who need educating that not everyone in the world are equal to everyone else.
- Tom Cullem
  
  I must contradict this. I have friends in America – they are white and they voted for Obama not least because of who he was running against: remember who McCain’s running mate was in 2008? Sarah Palin?
  
  And given the intellectual vacuity of George W. Bush, who managed to destabilise the entire Middle East with the biggest foreign policy debacle in the US since Vietnam, calling Obama, who taught constitutional law at Harvard, not intellectual enough to run America is rather silly.
  
  Tony Blair was quite well-educated. Look what he got us into.
  - 100
    
    Let’s be serious, black people and liberals like your white friends voted for Obama for reasons that are opposite sides of the same coin. The scourge of white-guilt disease is this country (US) has reached pandemic proportions.
Mary Ann

I don’t want Britain to be the 51st State of the Union without a vote, we do have a vote in the EU, not that many people bothered to use it.
- Brian Jones
  
  Of couyrse we do , we have a vote for MEPs who have no real power but not for the commissioners who actually run the EU.
- geyien
  
  We have 1/28th of a say in the EU, and our views are routinely voted down.
  We do not have enough MEPs to have a strong voice in the European Parliament. Our voice will be further diluted once Turkey joins.
  MEPs cannot make policy anyway, this is done by the unelected.
  
  In short, we are powerless in the EU, as the recent “negotiations” proved.
  - kentchap
    
    “We have 1/28th of a say in the EU” – wrong. Representation in the European Parliament is proportional to the population of the country.
    
    With MEPs like Farage and the rest of the UKIP lot who are there for the perks and bickering, little wonder that we cannot get our views heard.
- Tom Cullem
  
  Britain might do better as the 51st state of America than a cog in the wheel of Brussels’ plan to erase ethnic European cultures.
  It is interesting that you would find it more objectionable to be part of the US than have Angela Merkel deciding the demographic fate of all Europe.
  The noise about the US pulling our strings is vastly exaggerated. We have managed to create an economy with increasing numbers of people sleeping rough all on our own.
  It wasn’t the US that failed to secure the EU’s external borders even though it saw from 2013 onward that a huge migrant crisis was developing.
  Britain has managed to make its own mistakes in the last 60 years. And btw, Britain would have starved to death and lost its ability to hang on before Pearl Harbour without FDR and those wretched Yanks and their Lend Lease policy.
  - blackjack
    
    your talking about a rip off bank loan that we only finished paying in 2006. . .some SPECIAL relationship that was
  - Ron
    
    The Germans and Japanese got Billions from the USA we had to pay the yanks
Ali Sina

The US would not ever consider a “PAN American Union” run by a group of faceless bureaucrats based in Panama… with free movements of people from anywhere on the continent, such as Colombia, Guatemala and Mexico…

So why would we want to listen to their advice trying to bind us in the UK into a similar outfit?

Why someone gives you advice they would never for a second even consider following themselves, be careful, very careful.
- 100
  
  Oh rest assured Obama has done his best to get us as close as possible to “free movements of people from anywhere on the continent,” the only thing stopping him is Congress and the American people, hence his deep disdain for both. If he had it his way, those among us who are still white would voluntarily brexit to Britain (or Australia or anyplace else that would have us).
  - Mike Breen
    
    Yet he has done his best to prevent Americans from leaving.
Richard Young

I see Prime Minister Netanyahu refused Obama’s call to Washington.Had to drop off the dry cleaning or such like.Imagine the day dawning when one of our toothless troughers would do that.
- 100
  
  It was Obama who snubbed him and sent Biden. Obama hates Netanyahu.. another important relationship which is certain to improve along with US/Britain when he is gone.
- Robert Decker
  
  I see that Richard Young must not have understood this article enough to make a comment related to it. Just more Obama bashing with no substance.
Bodkinn

Have we really gotten so spineless that we allow our fate to be decided by a leader of another country? if I had previously been a remain I would change sides immediately rather than be so dictated to. Let’s not fool ourselves if Obama wants us in the EU it is not for our benefit but America’s. The devious Cameroon is no doubt behind this intervention as he knows he is losing the argument. I wonder what the reaction would be in America if one of our leading politicians went there and tried to tell them who to vote for in their forthcoming presidential election.
- Tom Cullem
  
  Pardon? The moment we joined the EU we began allowing our fate to be decided by a leader of a foreign country. Our exploding population, migrant situation, etc., are due to our extending control of our borders to a bureaucracy in Brussels and its putative leader, Angela Merkel, who recently opened Europe’s gates to enough non-EU, ME migrants to completely the shift of demographic balance in the region in another 50 years. Cameron’s “rock solid opt-out” for taking in tens of thousands more whilst the number of homeless in our own country rises, will melt like snow in the sun the moment an IN vote is secured – after which the EU will also roll out three new pieces of legislation that will render moot his empty little “concessions”.
  Obama is backing the interests of the big banks and the investor class and TTIP, as is Cameron. Obama failed to hold Wall Street’s feet to the fire in 2009 even when advised to by Larry Summers, who knew these creatures only too well.
  Yes, we have become rather spineless – but our spinelessness has been setting in for some time. Getting hot under the collar about it in reference to Obama is a bit late in the day.
  The only vote left to stop the politicians from rolling over us with their great plans for erasing national cultures, boundaries, and sovereignty, is the OUT vote on 23 June. If the polls in Germany prove correct in today’s regional elections, the message may finally start reaching the ears of leaders in the UK, Holland, Denmark, Sweden, France – and the US.
trobrianders

Modern civilised societies are the exclusive product of white European culture. Neither whites nor non-whites believe the keys can be handed over to non-whites whose cultures cannot sustain modern civilisation. That’s the theory being tested out this century. Obama believes the theory is false as do most loonyversity-educated whites in this country.
blackjack

ban obama from interfering in our politics, NOTHING to do with him, people will resent it
- kentchap
  
  And how are you going to enforce that “ban”?
  - Sri Krishna Bhagawan
    
    The Trident ?? We still have it :))
    - kentchap
      
      Indeed, that sounds very realistic. As realistic as the prospect of Brexit.
      - Sri Krishna Bhagawan
        
        right lets have a vote to nuke the US president and see what happens !
  - blackjack
    
    . . .?. . .have you heard of a govt, they ban lots of things, they can ban this ****** from coming here, simples, got it now
    - kentchap
      
      They didn’t have the bottle to ban an idiot like Trump that will be history before the US elections in November. Do you think they’ll have the bottle to ban an acting president of the US?
  - steddyneddy
    
    Israel manages to
100

As an American, it’s just another embarrassment (on a long list of them over the last 7 years) resulting from his going around pontificating about things he’s totally clueless on. But it’s not like we haven’t had our fair share of it from other world leaders throughout this administration (refer to recent 60 Minutes interview featuring one White Canadian Obama… just as arrogant, hypercritical and incompetent as the black one). Not to mention all the “weighing in” from around the world on all of us uneducated, ignorant, gun-toting, idiot Trump supporters. We have enough empty suits of our own trying to tear him down at any cost, we could certainly do without the alleged reactions of horrified Europeans added to the list of reasons our media uses for devoting every waking minute of the day to launching vile smears against him. Whatever you all decide in June, I hope the result will be reflective of the desires of those among you with “skin in the game,” as I hope the same for us in November… (the half of the population paying income taxes vs. the half who votes on how to spend our money). Good luck!
- Mike Breen
  
  Obama signed the HIRE act and FATCA contained within. For those that understand the implications, the monstrous consequences and the gigantic hypocrisy, they will no longer want the USA as an ally. With friends like that, who needs enemies? Even Americans are distancing themselves in record numbers, despite the best efforts of the USA in trying to prevent them from leaving.
trobrianders

Obama, the hot Marxist chick attempting to seduce a h0rny, free thinking British bloke into joining the Communist Party.
Robert Decker

Is there any chance of more than just an editorial opinion? What does “America’s ability to remain an engine of such growth is enhanced by close relations with countries that are not wedded to the job-crushing EU . . .” even mean? A look at our top trading partners does not include England. In fact, it includes Mexico – not exactly a bastion of economic growth and stability throughout the last 30 years.
Jacobi

With respect, Mr Obama should mind his own business.

Now many of us are interested in what happens in the USA . I personally have commented on Mr Trump and what is now internationally called Trumpism. I would not dream however of advising the USA voters how to vote.

Now I like the USA. I have family there and have visited many times. But the idea that the USA is the leader of the free world, or Europe, or UK is just daft and so out of date.

There are signs that we might be heading for another period of a Europe threatened by a Prussian/Ottoman alliance as happened in 1914. In that event of course we will turn to the USA for help and to others such as a Russian/Polish alliance which will doubtless emerge. But as always these alliances will be in the interests of the parties involved.

Now must go. Other things to worry about. The failing Chinese economy for a start!
- Mike Breen
  
  The trouble is, we might not be interested in what happens in the USA, but we darn well should be when an idiot like this signs legislation that costs us hundreds of millions of pounds to comply with US law in order to help him collect illegitimate taxation from British citizens!
  - Jacobi
    
    I never said we, or rather I, was not interested. Quite the opposite.
    It is important is to realise the world has moved on. What the USA does is important and will affect us but the idea that it is still the leader of the free world is just daft.
    - Mike Breen
      
      It is, particularly while they enslave their own citizens no matter where they live. Americans who preach freedom as if they are an example of how it works are in urgent need of some education.
MathMan

Obama has been wrong on everything else so why should he be right on our EU membership.
William Evans

Obama is wrong. Problem the US tries to mess to much in countries affairs.
- Disillusioned
  
  But then of course if we don’t we are criticised for being “nationalistic”.
- alan
  
  funnily enough much like many tories who thought they should tell Scots how to vote in the referendum
kentchap

Maybe Mr. Stelzer should practice what he preaches and mind his own effing business.
- Cretin Basher
  
  @kentchap:disqus . What a self-opinionated low -life you are. All you do is criticize any who don’t agree with your unsustainable views. You wouldn’t be telling Stelzer what he should do with his views if you agreed with them. I am another “kentchap” who finds your attitude both boring and offensive. Do us all a favour and go for a swim in Dover Harbour.
  - kentchap
    
    Little word of advice: you may want to consider shortening your nick by dropping “Basher” out of it. It would describe who you realy are more accurately.
Disillusioned

Last I checked Obama was hip hopping in the White House, literally. Cannot wait to be rid of him. The man is a national embarrassment and UK should not listen to him, about anything. We don’t.
- kentchap
  
  Rivers of milk and honey will flow once the Trumpster stumbles into the White House.
  - Cretin Basher
    
    Oh dear! You again!
    - kentchap
      
      I beg your pardon? Do I know you from anywhere?
sarah

Luckily we care more about fairness and cooperation than we care about your US corporations taking advantage of our tax loopholes to line your pockets at the expense of the UK taxpayer – so take your capitalist self serving drivel and tell someone who cares.
- Disillusioned
  
  Bitter much?
- sarah
  
  Wow – what a clever, well thought out and educated response!! Thank you taking the time to write an intelligent reply to my post. You really are a clown.
- Mike Breen
  
  Oh, it’s better than that. The USA has enforced legislation down UK throats at the point of a financial gun in order to allow it to tax British citizens directly! All the USA does is claim them as US tax payers under it’s own unique in the world tax codes and now our banks will be reporting their presence back to the USA. FATCA.
Mara Naile-Akim

‘Not Spain, which that wily fascist Franco kept out of the war. ‘

The Spanish fought a bloody war in order to stay on the Allied side. Sadly, the US and Britain did nothing to help them against Fascists.
- alan
  
  what on earth are you on ? Spain fought a battle to be on the allie side? axis is not spelt allied
- Ron
  
  Which planet are you on Mara? Mars
Mike Breen

Obama is the man who signed the legislation that has cost the world many billions of Dollars in order to hunt down Americans and make them pay taxes to the USA, taxes to be paid directly out of our economies and channelled to the USA. The cost for UK banking compliance alone is estimated at £500 per UK household that will no doubt be passed along to customers in one way or another. All this to enforce illegitimate taxes on people who left or in some cases, have never lived there. Any man who signs such legislation to damage his own people and steal money from our economies in the process cannot be trusted to have our interests at heart.
charles

Much of this is true and logical . This is one American not taken in by being the world super power but can think out of the box…well done sir.
- RWJ
  
  America is run and lead via Tel Aviv. Obama is just one of a succession of American White House janitors.
  - Anna Bananahammok
    
    The EU, Britain inclusive, is run by Saudi, Qatar, Turkey and other western-hating, Christian-killing sh!!holes.
    What’s your point?
Stewart Hughes

this is not yet clear to weather we should leave the EU,, what will we gain from leaving???
- john leadfoot
  
  Pride and Self Respect. Otherwise we must accept full control of EU rules including EURO and complete open borders after 23 June 2016. Once in a lifetime offer of making our own path. Or do you prefer to have to accept the Federal State of Europe forever.
- Jimbo
  
  Sovereignty – Democracy – FOI – That was what we [oldies] were told we were fighting for!!! And pre the early1970s we had it!
  Two wars millions dead and for what? To be ruled/governed by others we are unable to vote out! Democracy I THINK NOT!
  Sovereignty – Is not an illusion as Cameron claims. – It is a fact! Many many countries have it { 15 of the G20 have it. } To name but one America – WHO – [ what a surprise] want us the UK to be tied to the European Union – That NO British Citizen has ever voted for! – And I sincerely hope NEVER WILL!
  Sovereignty – Is – Internal governance with no external sources/bodies/institution holding any powers over the laws/rules made by that country. We clearly do NOT have that status whilst tied to the European Union.
  Because – EU – Courts/Laws/- DO take precedence over our courts and parliament – fact!
  - jknox
    
    You could use the same nationalistic arguments to back the case for an independent Scotland. However, would you be better of economically? Very few marriages are perfect.
    - Ron
      
      Scotland is a totally different case but as I am partially Scots descent I would gladly let Scotland go and row their own boat
    - Jimbo
      
      I was not arguing as you put – just stating facts. in regard to economics and based on 53+ years in business – We – my wife and I were better of pre 1975. However, there is one thing for certain – for the masses across the EU the marriage of Countries – against the wishes of the people [ I would argue ] is and has not beneficial – that only a fool would be unable to see/accept. But for the few their standard of living far exceeds their worth and we all know who they are!
      What department of government do you work in?
John_Twiss

We have certainly been reliable allies, however, I am not at all certain that the USA has in fact been that reliable as an ally. For their involvement in WWII we paid an exorbitant price, we again paid a price when the USA chose to intervene against us over Suez in 1956, thinking they would gain the friendship of Gammal Abdel Nasser who promptly opened the doors to the Soviet Union. They claimed to have helped us over the Falklands when the island on which their base was situated is British territory that they lease from us, with the proviso that we may use their re-fueling facility at any time we need to do so. Their greatest stab however, was just prior to WWII – we were obliged to divest our interests in the USA including railroads, cattle ranches and the port of New York and half their market value not in exchange for raw materials we needed, but for the permission to buy those materials…. So the USA believes us to be reliable allies, but what have they really brought to the table?
- john leadfoot
  
  The old adage I s”Be careful who you shake hands with, and be careful who you make friends with”. USA only want UK for support while the French want us to go away.
John_Twiss

Stelzer is advocating an alliance he hopes will not be lead by Bernie Sanders whom he compares to Corbyn. He is hoping in other words that the Republican candidate wins the White House, ah. candidate who will probably be Donald Trump. Does he seriously want us to be in a close alliance with a man who is not only divisive, but has already advocated violence against minorities, who has demonstrated unequivocally that he is a racist and who is far from being interested in civil rights or who actually believes in free speech unless it is his speech. Some how I do not see that such an ally, one who represents a regression in any form of social progress, civil rights or even freedom of speech and expression – we do not need another evolving dictator as an ally.
- E.I.Cronin
  
  So let me get this straight… objecting to 11.5 million illegal immigrants; over 4 billion of tax free credits to illegal aliens; 7.5k criminals released by Obama; 3 million arrests for violent and petty crime committed by Mexicans staying illegally; the disastrous impact on unemployment rates for Black Americans without college degrees and 22 billion loss from remittances in one year alone is somehow ‘racist?’. Nice try. But then playing the R card is a progressive form of Tourette’s.
  
  Have you read Trump’s immigration policy?
  
  Because if you haven’t addressed any of the intractable and very urgent problems border failure under the Democrats (and previous Republican administrations) has caused then you’re just mouthing platitudes that have no basis in reality.
RWJ

America wants access to the Russian border and a backside kissing UK government in Europe will help them in that goal. America has no interest in the prosperity of Europe unless aid to destroying its old perceived is forthcoming.
john leadfoot

Seeing Mr Obama want to poke his nose in Britain business over our future, how about we in Britain query USA over Mexico border.
- Sri Krishna Bhagawan
  
  Well UK has been poking nose in everyone’s business for the last 300 yrs
  - MickC
    
    Haha! Surely you know that what the UK wanted was “free trade”….on terms to its own advantage!
    - Sri Krishna Bhagawan
      
      Yes the corn laws
09AMDBS .

I’m English, but have lived in the USA for the last 36 years.. I might move back if the UK leaves the EU. I’m getting a bit homesick anyway, so this may be the right time.
- Mike Breen
  
  The USA will make your life very uncomfortable if you try and leave.
  - 09AMDBS .
    
    How?
    - Mike Breen
      
      Oh, where do I start? Well, you are now a “US person” as far as the rest of the world is concerned and certainly as far as the IRS is concerned. It does not matter if you took citizenship or not.
      Once overseas you will be treated as a criminal by the USA. You will be subject to onerous and expensive reporting requirements, your financial life in great details and the financial lives of anybody you share property or accounts with. You will be required to report your foreign banks accounts to FINCEN, the Financial Crimes Enforcement Network. The basic cost of the international accountant that you will almost certainly need is around $2000 a year for a basic filing.
      You will be tracked by the worlds financial systems and your presence will be reported back to the IRS because of FATCA, that is IF you can find a bank to take you. You will be subject to double taxation by the USA and taxation of those you share accounts and property with. Retirement plans are almost impossible, as the USA simply considers your retirement savings to be an overseas trust and so, taxable. Ditto some simple social security payments not taxable in your new home. The most revolting example of this currently that I know of is the USA taxing the disability savings plan of Canadian born children, because the parent is a “US person”.
      Then there is employment. In the case of the UK, most companies are required to enrol their employees in a pension plan but guess which companies are really running scared of FATCA? Yup, the pensions providers who often refuse to deal with “US persons”. Sorry, no “US persons”
      Any sort of high ranking position in a company that gives you signatory powers will require that company to report it’s entire financial life to the USA, and unsurprisingly most companies are not willing to do that, so forget that route. Start your own company? You don’t even want to know how much it will cost to report that to the USA, and that’s before they start taxing.
      Oh, and then there is the absolutely draconian and life destroying fines hanging over your head at all times, confiscatory and more for as much as a simple mistake, while your disabled child has his locally funded disability savings scheme raided by the USA. And how do you think it goes down with the wife when you tell her the USA wants part of the proceeds of the house sale? Family life may be strained, to say the least.
      And here in Belgium, only a few days ago I get a letter from HR saying they have found a way to pay my bonus via a more efficient method resulting in far less tax. Great! And right there in the conditions, guess what it says? “You must not be considered a “US person”. So guess what? The “US person” gets to pay 20 percent more tax. I could go on, but I guess you get the picture by now.
      And you know what? If you get to hear a little bit in the media about FATCA, you will hear Americans demanding that it’s fair because these people overseas need to pay their fair share. There is NOTHING fair about the way the USA treats it’s expats.
    - Mike Breen
      
      Thought I’d replied to this? Anyway, google FATCA and read then weep.
MartynF

Well said! I am pleased to read a positive report for once.
AMCRLIMA

My friend during the second world war, it was not France, Italy, Spain, China, India, UK/Britain that held the fort against Germany but it was America or US at both wars, first world war and second world war !!! And without blessing from America/US, Churchill and Britain and Russia and China and all countries in this planet were defeated !!!! Who borrowed money to rebuild all Europe and Britain and Japan and China destroyed by wars ?? Did Britain repay any peanut from that money borrowed by US to rebuild UK cities and UK infrastructures destroyed by Nazi’s army ? The answered is Nooo or Not. Then Britain was never in a position to act on its own !!!! Then the way that we are living today is because of blessing from America received by God.
- Cretin Basher
  
  Yawn. Not a single correct fact!
  - kentchap
    
    There is at least one correct fact – Britain could not stand a chance against Hitler’s Germany on their own
    - Mike Breen
      
      Is that why the USA is now taxing British citizens?
      - kentchap
        
        Are they?
      - Mike Breen
        
        Oh yes, they are. They are taxing the world. It’s quite shocking to me that so few know about it, particularly the poor deluded fools in the USA that think they are free. They need to try leaving.
      - kentchap
        
        I know Yanks abroad still have to pay tax. How are the US taxing British citizens though?
      - Mike Breen
        
        The USA is taxing British citizens, and the citizens of other countries because the USA have decided they are US tax payers. Simple as that. You don’t need a US passport or in some cases, ever have been there. Merely being born to a Brit who is entitled to a US passport is enough to make you a US tax payer.
        
        Citizenship taxation was introduced by the USA in order to punish those who tried to leave and avoid the draft during the civil war, they just never got around to updating it for the modern world. It was largely dealt with previously by completely ignoring it for the nonsense that it is. It’s become an issue now because Obama signed FATCA in to law, a law forced on other countries at the point of a financial gun in order to hunt down US tax payers (by US illegitimate definition) no matter where in the world they live their lives and already pay their taxes, and report them back to the USA.
        
        Effectively, it makes normal financial life impossible for those effected by this, and their family. It is a curse. I’m going to cut and paste another post that somebody else made……Incidentally, the cost of implanting FATCA in the UK is estimated at £500 per UK household.
        
        “”It’s really very simple: citizenship-based taxation is America’s Apartheid system. It is repugnant, immoral and indefensible. Since CBT is so clearly irredeemable, there is really nothing to talk about, unless your intellectual curiosity exists in a profoundly amoral vacuum.
        
        CBT discriminates against a particular group of people on the basis of their place of birth – a characteristic as immutable as the colour of their skin. It labels them, tracks them, intimidates them, criminalizes them and forces them into virtual prisons from which escape is nearly impossible. Worse, the architects of CBT are now co-opting the rest of the world to implement this discriminatory regime for them. It is astonishing and disheartening how quickly and easily this is unfolding.
        
        Far too many countries, cowed by the 30% withholding stick that the U.S. threatens to beat them with, like the FBAR and OVDP sticks they already beat their CBT victims with, simply refuse to challenge America on fundamental moral grounds and it is wrong.
        
        The U.S. does not deserve a free pass on CBT and FATCA any more than the old South African government deserved a free pass for its heinous apartheid policies. Yet several ostensibly modern and enlightened nations have rationalized their acquiescence to FATCA by publicly exclaiming that America has the inherent right to tax its citizens in whatever manner it chooses. Well, in a just world it does not, for CBT represents a clear denial of basic human rights and dignity.
        
        Yes, the global hypocrisy is staggering, especially from countries like Canada. Last year, our Conservative government expelled the consul-general for Eritrea for that regime’s tax extortion efforts against its expats in Canada. Just last week, the same government enthusiastically ushered-in America’s FATCA laws to override our country’s own Charter of rights and freedoms, discriminating on the basis of national origin, gutting federal banking privacy laws and setting the stage for a massive legal challenge which will be fought in our Supreme Court.
        
        Beneath all the technocratic language about forms, compliance, jurisdictions and enforcement, there is a fundamental truth: these American policies are morally unjust and the world must not condone them any longer. FATCA will be a global disaster unless it is stopped now.
        
        It is indeed time for the world to say no to the U.S. practice of citizenship-based taxation and to force it to adopt residency-based taxation like the rest of the world. If not, then the world better find a more deserving reserve currency in a hurry – the United States has abused its position of trust for far too long and it needs to be reminded that it is just one nation in a community of nations. The breathtaking audacity of FATCA is simply a bridge too far.””
      - kentchap
        
        If you’re not happy you can always initiate legal proceedings to give up your inherited US citizenship.
      - Mike Breen
        
        You make it sound so very simple, and it very rarely is. The USA, in response to the massive increase in renunciations, has been quite deliberately placing obstacles in the way of those who try to renounce. So rapidly in fact that it is hard to keep pace. For example, many have only just found out about the demands of the USA on their lives due to FATCA, some having absolutely no idea about the onerous obligations placed on them by a country the other side of an ocean that they may never have even seen before.
        The USA does not care, the obligations and punishments are exactly the same as they are for a US resident who has been hiding banks accounts in Switzerland. They make no distinction at all for the French resident and citizen mother with a bank on the same street. She was born to an American, the USA wants taxes. To renounce will mean supplying 6 (last I looked) years worth of tax compliance and paying all associated fines for not filing in the past. Given the truly horrendous fines that can amount to total confiscation and more, this can and does result in fines amounting to HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS before a renunciation will be considered!
        The sad truth is that very, very few of the people having their lives blighted by the USA are in any sort of position to renounce, many not even able to afford the $2350 required for the basic consular fee, let alone the cost of a specialist international accountant and the inevitable fines from the IRS. Incidentally, the $2350 is just one of the recent moves by the USA, recently raised from $450 to now be the highest renunciation fee in the world.
      - kentchap
        
        I’m sorry that one of your parents is/was a Yank.
    - Ron
      
      We the UK and the Commonwealth were on our own the Yanks only came in because of Pearl Habour, the Yanks did not want to be there many shot them selves to get a Purple Heat and be sent home witnessed by my father
      - kentchap
        
        Imaging what would have happened had the Yanks not come. It’s very easy.
      - Ron
        
        Rubbish
      - kentchap
        
        Well, if you say that, it’s got to be true.
      - Ron
        
        They were close to joining Adolf until Pearl Harbour kentchap
      - kentchap
        
        Maybe. But that would have increased even more the chances of Hitler successfully invading Britain.
      - MickC
        
        There was no realistic prospect of the UK being successfully invaded. This has been “gamed” by professionals hundreds of times. Not once has the result been a successful invasion.
        The UK had the largest, most powerful navy on the planet, Germany a small navy with no vessels capable of landing troops by sea. The river barges Germany would have had to use could not cross the Channel safely….a large vessel even passing near would swamp them, let alone bombs and artillery fire.
      - kentchap
        
        In the short term yes. In the long term, Britain would not have stood a chance alone against Germany.
      - MickC
        
        I could hardly disagree more. Germany has few natural resources, in particular it had no access to oil without that from the USSR. It was always Hitler’s intent to conquer it, and hold it, a practically impossible task. Extracting resources from it, given a hostile population to hold down, entirely impossible.
        The German economy was a ramshackle affair, as Hitler was warned. He was counting on a quick victory/stalemate in the West, then terms with the West, which would allow a free hand in the East.
        The idea that Germany was some sort of economic, or military superpower is entirely wrong. The inherent inflation was suppressed by price controls, but as always, would break through eventually, destroying the economy…and that was before war started.
        The army, far from being mainly mechanised, was mainly horse drawn…the German army marched into Russia…. It did not ride on trucks. The British army wss more mechanised, with better equipment.
        “Britain” consisted of the British Empire, with all its assets, wealth and people. That is not a “little Englander, we are the best” type statement. It is a statement of the facts at the time.
        I know it suits the modern British “foundation myth” that poor little Britain was all alone against the German giant. It is nonsense, as most such myths are.
      - MickC
        
        Err, no they were’nt. The USA may possibly have remained neutral, but there was no real prospect of it supporting Germany. Even the America First movement was about neutrality, not engagement.
    - MickC
      
      Sorry, that is also wrong. The British Empire would have won, but taken longer to do so. Germany was far more stretched economically.
      - kentchap
        
        You reckon?
      - MickC
        
        Messrs Tooze and Edgerton are the required reading on the respective economies
- stephen shaw
  
  The British paid every penny back you idiot, they only finished paying for the second world war 5 years ago. The us did nothing for the first 3 years of the second world war. The main instigators of the that war were American corporations which funded and supplied the german war machine before and during six years of war, you are an uneducated inbred idiot.
  - AMCRLIMA
    
    Call others uneducated inbred idiot only shows ignorance, insecurity, stupidity, inelegant and lack of information on the part of my skydiver idiot !!!
    Tell in the America that the British government paid all UK debt regarding money borrowed by the US to rebuild UK after second world and they will laugh from your ignorance and call him uneducated inbred idiot !!!
    - Breakfast_burrito
      
      What about the cost of the IRA to the UK that was funded by America or what about the cost to the world for funding Al Qaeda and then ‘moderates’ that then became ISIS
      
      The list of atrocities cuased by America have done more damage then the british empire yet you did it in a few hundred years.
    - Fredbloggs
      
      ‘Tell in the America..’ ?!
- MickC
  
  You are wrong on a number of points.
  
  The USA did not “hold the fort”, it supplied the goods to hold the fort; somewhat more important actually. Most of the fighting in WW2 was done by Russia, which gutted the German army.
  No, Germany could not have defeated the British Empire which would eventually have “won”, as in survived in a meaningful form. Germany could not have defeated “all countries”, and did not seek to; Pat Buchanan has correctly described that idea as “comic book history”.
  Yes, the WW2 debts were repaid; it is the WW1 debts which were not, and remain unpaid.
  Regrettably the loans from the US after WW2 were not spent on infrastructure, but on seeking to maintain world power status.
  The USA’s blessing from God consisted of the Louisianna Purchase and then aggressive expansion and seizure of Mexican territory; in other words, imperialism. I won’t mention the Native Americans..
- Jacobi
  
  Really. America in both wars? Perhaps you should ask the Berliners who they think finished them off in WWII, when the Americans were still somewhere on the Elbe, or the French after Verdun in 1917 or the Brits after the second Somme in 1918 when the Americans were still arriving.
Jane

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/119328

Prevent obama from speaking when he visits
- Cretin Basher
  
  Don’t let him visit.
  - kentchap
    
    Yeah, send Dad’s army to stop him. Do you really believe what you’re writing or this is your moment of pseudo-intellectual mental masturbation?
- jknox
  
  I don’t see what good this will do since the President has already been invited.
- kentchap
  
  Sign this one instead. At least prompted a debate in Parliament. That silly petition of yours
  never will.
  
  https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/114003
  - Jane
    
    But why block Trump?
    - kentchap
      
      Becaiuse he’s asking for it.
Carlisle

The UK has never been wholeheartedly a member state of the EU, and never will be.
chassy

Just vote OUT OF THE CORRUPT EU
jknox

Mr. Stelzer, you express an admiration for Adam Smiths free markets. You really should explain to your readers that Adam Smith believed in minimalist government. To use Smith’s words he believed “Government should limit its activities to administer justice, enforcing private property rights, and defending the nation against aggression.” Under this type of UK there would be no NHS, no one to monitor if the meat we eat is safe, and no market regulation in financial services, telecoms, utilities, etc. Capitalism is the most efficient form of allocation which the world has ever known but it is far from perfect which is why regulations, unions, and other market checks have emerged to mitigate the unintended consequences of pure capitalism.

You talk about Americans not wanting regulations in financial services but it is the lack of regulation which caused the global financial crisis of 2009.

Given your arguments I suspect that those American’s who favor a Brexit are hoping for a UK which is more dependent on the United States. The sum of EU country trade makes the EU the United States largest trading partner. On a country by country basis the UK ranks 7th. Canada, China, and Mexico, came in first, second, and third, respectively, in terms of largest trading partners. Is the UK likely to have more influence on trade policy as a major player in the EU or on its own negotiating with a country five times its size (in population terms)? “Unshackled” from the EU it is more likely that the US could negotiate more advantageous trade terms then they could with the market which now exceeds the size of the U.S. market.

Also, militarily the UK is likely to be less helpful independent of Europe. In the early 1990’s the size of the regular British army was almost 300,000 personnel. Today the size of the regular British Army is 90,000 and will decline to 80,000 personnel by 2020.
- Fredbloggs
  
  The fact that we are only ranked 7th in the US trading league table is due in large part to the protectionist import duties imposed upon uk goods and services – by the eu.
  - jknox
    
    The EU is currently in negotiation of the Transatlantic Trade and Invest and Investment Partnership (TTIP). When completed in 2020 (-talks started in 2013), it will be the biggest U.S. – EU free trade area in history. More important for the UK is that agreement also addresses trade in “services” as opposed to goods. Services represent ~eighty percent of UK GDP. The UK is no longer a manufacturing powerhouse. Since the UK is negotiating as a market with 500 million EU consumers for access to the US market with ~320 million consumers it is likely we will be able to negotiate more favorable terms than as a country of only 65 million people.
    - Fredbloggs
      
      Are you also contending that the eu protectionist policies will not apply to the uk when we try and trade with other non eu nations, other than the US ?
      - jknox
        
        EU protectionist policies will apply to the UK when we trade with other countries outside the U.S. because we are a member of the EU. Some of those protectionist policies benefit UK businesses. Some protectionist policies do not benefit the UK. However, the concessions the EU can exact from offering access to a market of 500 million consumers are likely greater than smaller individual countries can demand.
      - Fredbloggs
        
        Thank you for confirming my point ie that remaining in the EU will continue to hold back UK exports to the rest of the world (I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt re TTIP and the US) because of its protectionist, non -free trade structure.
    - Ron
      
      You all realize that US food standards are much lower that the UK for example rat and mouse faeces are allowed in the Great US of A along with all sorts of other undesirable contaminents
- geoff creighton
  
  Excellent posting there has to be a balance, but the larger the organization, the less powerfull the drone the more powerful and remote the queen and her retinue. The EU is quite frankly too large to support democracy already. As in the UK there is an urgent need not to centralise power but to devolve the powers the EU already has.
  Unfortunately the rest of the EU has set its agenda to do precisely the opposite. As a confederation of Sovereign states it’s an excellent idea. As a united states of Europe or as a United European governed by the elite of the Lycee, quite frankly it is something I would prefer to be outside and to retain my freedom of thought.
Sri Krishna Bhagawan

You should go beyond econ 101. There are plenty of reasons markets dont work. Asymetric Information, Incomplete markets etc etc update your knowlege please …..
Janet

Thats nice of you as we are expecting the frog hollandaise to line his cowardly frogs up to stab us in the back, we are being threatened daily that we will no longer be safe but they have underestimated the strength of mind we have and have always had along with many of our commonwealth family that fought with us and will stand with us again shoulder to shoulder. We are sick of being robbed of our money and independence by these non elected spinless creatures
- kentchap
  
  What is a “spinless creature”, Janet? Before regurgitating the dribble they fed you at the local UKRAP meetings, you may consider learning your own language properly. And there’s definitely no danger of anyone “understimating YOUR strength of mind”.
  - geoff creighton
    
    Oooh! Handbags at dawn, Your pitiless, a little slip on the keyboard and you’re all a flutter. Oh! dearie dearie me!
    - Ron
      
      Geoff kentchappy is the first to take the p155 he deserves all he gets
  - Ron
    
    You are a real plonker Kentish idiot
    - Mike Breen
      
      Seconded.
  - Janet
    
    kentchap. So who mistook your treasure for a snail?
- Jayne Warner
  
  We do need to BREXIT for so many reasons. TTIP being a major one. The amount of poor countries being allowed to join the EU and dragging down the economies. Free movement causing increased security problems. The fact that the EU has never supplied a set of accounts as to where the money has all gone too. The list goes on… and on…. We are OUT.
Callipygian

Obama is wrong about everything: always has been. The stupid Leftist.

In other news: my home state of Florida was taken for his delegate pile today by the Orange Moron. That would be Donald Trump, for you happily uninitiated. An ape in a man’s sort-of-body.

Sad for my country tonight. And you should be too: when America goes, the free world goes with it.
- Ron
  
  There is no such thing in the USA as a leftist
  - Bertie
    
    Bernie Saunders? Are you claiming that closet socialist isn’t a Leftist?
    - Ron
      
      Yes when you talk about socialists you don’t have any in any quantity we would call them whisy washy liberals
      - Bertie
        
        We’ve plenty of socialists in the UK – most habit the Loony LEft of the Labour party, the SWP, or the European Bureaucracy that governs the EU – Juncker, Van Rompoy,many are ex communists.
      - Leon Wolfeson
        
        So you have no idea about socialism and what it is.
        
        As you whine that people with any kind of leftist views…in your PC…
      - Bertie
        
        I think you’ll find I know exactly what Socialism is – Bernie Saunders is a socilaist as well.>
        
        Now stop Trolling me!!!!
        
        Your last sentence doesnt even make any sense.
        
        Clearly you were frothing as you attempted to scribble a cogent sentence that fell woefully short.
      - Leon Wolfeson
        
        So you don’t think, thanks, as you admit your poor English skills… as you blame me for your issues…
      - Bertie
        
        Where did I say that? I may have issues typos wise here and then but then you don’t merit spending anytime checking for such before pressing reply. I often scribble whilst on my smartphone so typos are more prevalent due to absence of favoured blackberry keyboard. Typos however have no bearing on ones ability to dissect the drivel in your last sentence.
        
        ” As you whine that people with any kind of leftist views…in your PC…”
        
        Only an idiot would claim that makes sense!
        
        Again you’re dishonestly misrepresenting. No surprises as you’ve no facts on which to base a cogent argument!
        
        I don’t blame you for anything other than being a troll!
      - Leon Wolfeson
        
        So you deny your posts, while making excuses, and as you whine about comments on your posts.
        
        As you call yourself an idiot, and blame me for your posts, as you say not hating those not just like you…
      - Bertie
        
        I’m not denying anything other than your imbecility and continual deceit & deliberate misrepresentation of what I am saying…
        
        “As you whine that people with any kind of leftist views…in your PC…”
        
        So what does this sentence of yours mean then.As grammatically it doesn’t make any sense whatsoever.
        
        “As you call yourself an idiot, and blame me for your posts, as you say not hating those not just like you”
        
        Don’t think I said this. But there’s your blatant lies yet again.
        
        Again this sentence is hardly indicative of you having a brain – full of assumptions, and deceptions.
      - Leon Wolfeson
        
        So you deny your denial, as you spew PC bigotry.
        
        As you whine you can’t understand common English terms… as you don’t think you said what you said, and claim I share your assumptions and deceptions….
      - Bertie
        
        So what denial am I denying then Einstein.
        
        PC bigotry – what, calling you an deceitful misrepresentative imbecile when you clearly are,as the evidence shows.
        
        I can’t understand common English terms? Such as?
        
        Is the following an example of your common terms?
        “As you call yourself an idiot, and blame me for your posts, as you say not hating those not just like you”
        
        Vacuous and poor phrased as it is. Hardly grammatical either and most clearly not how anyone with a decent grasp of English would express themselves.
      - Leon Wolfeson
        
        So you say your hate is a fact, as you spew more PC bigotry.
        As you deny your posts…
        
        As you claim your Hatese is “decent”.
- Jayne Warner
  
  You don’t have much choice in your election do you? Clinton is an evil witch. Trump is crazy. No one in the middle.
Ominous

Ideally if the UK leaves the EU it should be neutral and independent from both the EU and the USA.
mariandavid

Maybe – but do not assume that a separated England will have any but high-duty access to either EU or Commonwealth countries: It was recently reported that the only English export of merit to the EU was the wings for Airbus aircraft (hardly surprising since England has less manufacturing as a ratio of GNP than any other industrialised country), while I can assure you that Canada has zero intention of giving England any exemptions in the event of an exit – possibly even penalties since a new Canada-EU trade deal is close to completion.
- Bertie
  
  “It was recently reported that the only English export of merit to the EU was the wings for Airbus aircraft”
  
  Not heard of Bae systems then have you – UK in top 4 for Defence exporters globally. Nor Pharmaceutcials – Glaxo and Astra Zeneca, two of the largest globally drugs companies..Nor Shell/BP, two of the seven sisters.
  
  Etc etc
  
  The report you reference clearly being utter tosh.
  
  Viz a Canada-UK trade deal and your claim of zero intention of exemptions, possibly even penalties..on whose authority do you speak? Are you a member of Canadian Government?
  The EU-Canada trade deal has taken 7 years!!! And is still only close to completion,laughable. That’s what happens when you need to satisfy the competing demands of 29 nations!
  - mariandavid
    
    And I fear you live in a world of English exceptionalism – “English export of merit” meaning made in England by English workers from start to finish. None of the others apply – do you seriously think that today Glaxo is an exclusively English company???
    
    And while not a member of the new Canadian government I know enough of its policies to realize that any dreams by an independent England of maintaining a special trade agreement with Canada are doomed – by among other valid concerns deep anger at a contrived split-up (something that rings poorly in Canadian ears – remember Quebec) and contempt for the bigoted xenophobia it reflects.
    - Mike Breen
      
      We live in a global world. To put down any product or service because it is not 100 percent the product of that country is a nonsense. For the rest, emotional nonsense. As for Canada, is that the same Canada that just handed Canadian heads on a platter to the US IRS while totally ignoring their rights as Canadians? They sure stood up to the USA then! The USA seems intent on slowly turning other countries in to new US states and effectively has done so by enforcing it’s illegitimate (by their own admission, but only when other countries do it!) tax code on people who don’t live there. We need to stand up to the USA and tell them where they need to get off. Telling Obama to mind his own business is one step, telling them to stick FATCA where the sun does not shine would be another.
      - mariandavid
        
        Now that I totally agree with: We had before a “conservative” prime minister whose main ambition was to retain office by selective promises to groups that would support him – and of course protecting ‘Canadians’ from the US was not one of them. Mind you a lot of these are not Canadians but Americans who have not revoked their citizenship. Hopefully the new PM will be less tentative in ordering Canada Revenue and Canadian Banks to refuse to obey US orders.
      - Mike Breen
        
        The point is, most of them are in fact Canadian. The fact they might have, or be entitled to a US passport should mean nothing at all. The sheer gall of a country prepared to tax the entirely Canadian funded disability savings plan of a Canadian born Canadian disabled child is simply breath taking. Oh, but the parents are dual Canadian American! Well, that’s alright then! SHAME on all our governments who put the interests of the banks ahead of protecting their own citizens from an entirely illegitimate tax grab by a foreign power.
      - mariandavid
        
        Not most but at least 1 million of our citizens here in Canada are affected: Under the previous PM this was sort of hushed up or diverted ‘they are all foreign non-taxpaying bums’ but now things are changing. There are challenges going through the courts in Ontario and some growing upset about this extraterritoriality stunt the US practices. Just last week while driving down University Avenue saw a crowd with placards outside the US Consulate.
        
        I think the trouble is that the US Congress does not realize (or more likely does not care) that there is a huge difference between Americans who dodge paying US tax by hiding it in tax shelters and those who instead pay tax (usually higher) to their nation of residence.
      - Mike Breen
        
        I am so tired of hearing Americans demanding these people pay their fair share of tax. There is no fair share for a country where you don’t live.
        And ALL Canadians are effected as are all UK citizens. The cost of implementing FATCA in the UK is estimated at an astonishing £500 per UK household.
        These are costs on the banks but guess where all costs on the banks end up?
        I know about the US tax system and FATCA and it horrifies me how few do. Taxation of the world, enslavement of any person THEY decide will pay US taxes.
        The world needs to wake up to this.
      - Mike Breen
        
        And yes, the USA makes no distinction between a tax dodging US resident hiding money in Switzerland and a grandmother resident in Switzerland who has never even seen the USA, but her mother was born there. Both are subject to onerous and expensive reporting regimes and monstrous punishment for a simple mistake. USA has lost the plot. An American abroad certainly has enemies, but none more dangerous than the USA
      - mariandavid
        
        I am never sure whether this is by intent or ignorance – if Congress acted blindly with no idea of the implications or acted with deliberation and malignant endeavor to ‘bring those abroad to heel’. My suspicion is stupidity and ignorance – but.
      - Mike Breen
        
        One thing I am certain of as will anybody be if they look at the facts…….FATCA is a monstrous piece of legislation that was nodded through with almost nobody understanding the consequences, including Obama. All they saw was a bit of legislation to prevent the rich avoiding taxes. Delving deeper in to this huge document and understanding exactly what the (unintended?) consequences are takes a smart lawyer weeks if not months of concentrated work. How many times have the banks had their deadlines to comply extended? I don’t think there was a single politician that thought FATCA might ruin the US economy, yet it promises to do just that. The USA has shown that it cannot be trusted not to abuse the position it gained under the Bretton Woods agreement, and the world needs to find a new reserve currency, and fast. How very DARE the USA send tax bills to the Lord Mayor of London??!!!
      - mariandavid
        
        The trouble is that by most standards the US Congress is a grossly inefficient and careless and sloppy government. It has the habit of making massive bills to pass, but these are then packed on with endless special additions from individual politicians. And all they pay attention to in these bills are issues that affect their city or state and often ignore the bigger issues such as this one.
        But in this case their sloppiness will come back to haunt – it is utterly improper (and equally stupid) to insist on other countries taxing on their behalf. Especially since if Britain or Canada did the same to them – well you can imagine the result!
    - Bertie
      
      I’m well aware of Britain;s declining influence thanks so am not operating under any illusions of English exceptionalism.
      
      You quote – “English export of merit” meaning made in England by English workers from start to finish.”
      
      Clearly this would apply to most countries, include the USA, as most stuff is manufactured in ASIA/Far East as most components are made overseas, often reassembled before being shipped.
      
      As I said there are many examples, mostly in niche markets, but Drugs, Tobacco, Oil are market segments where we do well…
      
      It’s a global world you know.
      
      Given your intimation that you were a member of “an old Canadian govt” rather ythan the new one recently formed under trudeau it beggars belief that you refer only to England! it isn’t England, it’s United Kingdom, or Great britain(not so great these days)
      
      Surely someone in any government would know the difference!
      
      I don’t beleive a UK / Canada trade deal would take anywhere near the 7 years it has taken the EU.
      
      And who said it was to be a special one – a normal trade agreement would suffice and its hardly liekly to be as bad as the EU one.
      - mariandavid
        
        I said “England” because outside observers well aware (as it seems you are not) of the internal politics of the no-longer United Kingdom are convinced that a Brexit will, within a year or so result in a Scottish exit, followed by a Welsh exit. The Welsh in particular are well aware that all of their improvements and expansions were funded by the EU and owe little to the London centric government of the UK. So an ‘Out” will trigger more Outs and Little England will appear as she was – only as large as but far less powerful than in the days of the first Queen Elizabeth.
        Oh and you have no comprehension of the distaste felt for the UK in its commonwealth nations after its arrogant dismissal of their trade when it entered the EU. Many are still panting to punish in return and delaying trade deals into infinity is a pleasant spectacle for them to behold.
      - Bertie
        
        I am well aware of the internal politics – it is however clear that you are not!
        
        Wales isn’t economically viable as a stand alone nation. a pity but an indisputable fact.
        
        Brexit is also quite popular in Wales 45% FOR, 37% Remain.
        
        Despite being one of the main financial beneficiaries of UK membership,
        the Welsh appear to have turned increasingly Eurosceptic. An opinion
        poll last week by Welsh Barometer put the Leave vote among the
        principality’s 2.2m voters at 45 per cent, against 37 per cent who want
        to remain part of the EU.”
        
        https://next.ft.com/content/2aa5a1fa-d64e-11e5-829b-8564e7528e54
        
        Perhaps engaging in some research might be in order before you start casting about such claims!
        
        The Scots yes – they are generlly Pro Remain, and a brexit would quite possibly call for a second Independence vote..So be it.
        
        “Little England will appear as she was – only as large as but far less powerful than in the days of the first Queen Elizabeth.”
        
        So what – UK/England has done it’s part policing Europe. We have spent much treasure, much blood fighting for Good against Evil on the European continent or in the Pacific.
        
        I’d welcome UK/England taking a back seat – focusing on improving the lot of many of its citizens that have been left behind, focusing on trade with the ROTW, and equally as importantly, mending the relationship with the English speaking nations of the Commonwealth especially. It’s time we stopped getting involved in major wars – we never seem to get any gratitude for doing so despite the immense sacrifice our country has made.
        
        “Oh and you have no comprehension of the distaste felt for the UK in its
        commonwealth nations after its arrogant dismissal of their trade when it
        entered the EU”
        
        Why blame a nation for the dishonest actions of its political class. The populace was lied to by ted Heath (as the Werner Report shows.)
        
        The people were duped into signing up for a Common Market which was anything but. We now have the opportunity to right that wrong so why lambast us for it?
        
        Which Commonwealth coutnry are you from them? It’s clear you hate the English.
        
        “Many are still panting to punish in return and delaying trade deals into infinity is a pleasant spectacle for them to behold.”
        
        Pleasant spectacle is it – what a delightful person you are.
      - ben
        
        I am English, I have served in the British army for years alongside Welsh, Scottish and Northern Ireland personnel. Guess what, if they want independence then they are welcome to it, they have earned it many times over. Instead of focusing on what you will lose you should focus on what you will win and what you can do with. Quite a few people have died for independence and democracy and considered it worth fighting for. Maybe you should spend a little more time investigating if in fact you are actually free as a part the EU and if you actually have a democracy. You don’t have to research too far see the answer is plainly NO. As a soldier I will vote out because I swore to fight for my country and freedom. I can do no more, your choice is your own. I hope you don’t live to regret it as I for one will never fight for Europe or protect a to a population that voted away their freedom willingly.
      - Leon Wolfeson
        
        So you’re aware of the actions of this government. Hmm.
        
        And no, 7 years would be quick. So. As you say a far worse deal for England alone (Scotland and Wales are already talking about leaving together if England..)..
      - Bertie
        
        Wales isn’t viable as a stand alone country – as its budget deficit figures recently showed. it is entirely dependent on English taxpayer. A shame but indisputable. As to whether Scotland is viable – that’s a moot point. Currently Price of Oil would indicate it isnt. As the laughable SNP facts n figures around referendum time illustrated.
        
        7 years is ridiculously slow and has arisen because the needs of 29 members has to be met – UK would be negotiating from a position of only one member’s agreement being needed.
        
        As to your Scotland / Wales claim – Guess you made up the Welsh bit!!
        
        “Wales looks set to be the only devolved region to favour Brexit, after a big surge in support for the anti-European UK Independence party.
        
        Despite being one of the main financial beneficiaries of UK membership, the Welsh appear to have turned increasingly Eurosceptic. An opinion poll last week by Welsh Barometer put the Leave vote among the principality’s 2.2m voters at 45 per cent, against 37 per cent who want to remain part of the EU.”
        
        https://next.ft.com/content/2aa5a1fa-d64e-11e5-829b-8564e7528e54
        
        I don’t dispute the Scottish claim though. Personally I would let Scotland go its own way – divvy up the assets, the liabilities.(And no Sterling isn’t an asset so the Scots would have to get their own currency, or be reliant on BOE policy which negates any independence jump)
        
        The right to self determination for nation states is undeniable. If Wales wants to go it should be given the opportunity as well. But it isnt viable.
        http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/poll-54-of-scots-would-back-independence-following-brexit-1-4026474
      - Leon Wolfeson
        
        Isolationism is worse, but details.
        
        As you say fast is slow, and ignore the fact that treaty negotiations do take many years – this isn’t an EU thing, but global. As you then claim facts are made up… and as you state self-determination isn’t viable, I hear you.
        
        If your Fearmen get your way, I’ll be arguing for self-determination for London too, I note. Which would be “viable”, in many senses of the word…
      - Bertie
        
        Who said anything about Isolationism?
        
        Not being beholden to a foreign government(ie Democracy, self determination) is not isolationism.
        
        Pulling out of EU, trading with Common mkt and rest of the world is, in fact, anything but isolationism!
        
        Treaty negotiations wont take as long as the Fear mongers are claiming.
        
        Which alleged facts have I claimed are made up.
        
        Wales isn’t independently viable – it’s basic mathematics. For them self determination would last hardly any time at all as they’d need to be bailed out!
        
        My fearmen – only people engaging in Campaign Fear are the Remainers/StrongerIn campaigns.
        
        As to the London remark – London is capital on England -it isn’t a country in its own right.
        
        Any chance you can focus on FACTS, figures rather than dishonest misrepresentation,subterfuge, and blatant lies.
      - Leon Wolfeson
        
        You. Again. As you call for zero treaties.
        Trade only via…well, not the WTO tarrifs as that’s being beholden to other governments…
        
        As you make magical claims about trade, say you’ll smash wales, as you refuse to admit your campaign, and as you decry self-determination for the London you want to drag down – and I’m not posting your posts…
      - Bertie
        
        Again, please stop with the lying
        
        I havent called for zero treaties.
        
        Nor did I say I would “smash” Wales as you dishonestly claim.
        
        Nor have I made magical claims about trade, as you misrepresent.
        
        As to refuse to admit my campaign – my campaign to what? Other than some subterfuge in your mind! You’re a crackpot aren’t you.
      - Leon Wolfeson
        
        I am not posting your posts, as you try and deny the consequences of your calls.
        
        I’m not you, no, Mr. Bertie Crackpot.
      - Bertie
        
        What? How does your answer immediately above follow from my comments – you continually misrepresent by claiming I have said something(eg I would smash Wales) when I have said nothing of the sort!
        
        English isn’t your first language is it because your thought processes defy logic. As does your ability to put a point across in a manner that actually makes sense!
        
        And what CALLS would I be denying as an aside.
        
        Name them (the calls I have made)
      - Leon Wolfeson
        
        You said it very very clearly. As you scream that because I don’t agree with your views I magically must be foreign, blah blah. As you claim a monopoly on logic for your views.
        
        As you demand I copy/paste your posts, and wonder why I don’t speak in your extremist language…
Ron

I comment on these pages regularly and I find it so strange that the right wing commenters are so aggressive and try to put down anyone who disagrees with their comments they must be very insecure people
knight

Even Australia wants close ties with EU, talks start next year. Both major parties back UK to stay. To me they been brought of. Prime Minister former banker. Australia sold again

http://www.smartcompany.com.au/growth/49096-malcolm-turnbull-kicks-off-free-trade-discussions-with-the-eu-what-a-deal-would-mean-for-aussie-businesses/
knight

This video every one should view and learn about EU and UK.

Just think, EU is not an elected party by the people but an organisation dictating

https://www.youtube.com/embed/A7TJgPGgfZs
ben

Wow reading these comments is like reading an school message board from kids who don’t have the slightest clue about reality or the history of the world. There will always be trade deals in or out of Europe and Trade deals on behalf of 27 vastly different countries are overly complicated and certainly not in the best interests of all countries concerned. That is why they take so much longer than trade deals between 2 countries. It is also irrelevant. You can trade with any country so long as you meet their import regulations. If this was not true there would be zero trade with the USA which I am sure we can agree is something that happens with very few hiccups. Because as it stands there is no trade deal between the US and EU. In fact the very trade deal you are talking about the EU had to be very sneaky about keeping it alive when so many over here don’t want it in its current form. Company’s suing governments is ridiculous. SECONDLY and most importantly the EU is not a democratic organisation, the decision and laws are made by a council or unelected officials who are unaccountable to any of the elected officials. America calls itself a champion of democracy and so it citizens should be horrified that any president would support an organisation like the EU, Which is about to get its own army and is frankly a dictatorship. Because that is what you call unelected officials who run a country and the EU has so many Sovereign powers now that is one step away from becoming the Federal States Of Europe with far more in common with the soviet union than the united states. Without Democracy freedom will be a thing of the past in Europe. Open borders are one of its most important tenants because it erodes any form of patriotism left in those free countries. If you can destroy patriotism people meekly allow the erosion of their identity and ready when the Federal States of Europe is announced. If you don’t think that is dangerous to the USA you really should reread your history books.
CWOrange666

We can help! Let us strive to get pigs in the public area, getting rid of the headbangers…As pigs are favored to begin growing human body parts, those parts being visible should run the moslem jerks out of britain. Pork should be cooked in the streets, and that rich aromatic smell should close mosques down. What a lovely thought!

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