Features

What Muslims think

The Sun survey that suggested Muslims sympathise with terrorists was misleading

28 November 2015

9:00 AM

28 November 2015

9:00 AM

Do you have sympathy with young Muslims who leave the UK to join fighters in Syria? It’s a hard question to answer: perhaps you’d wonder who the ‘fighters’ were. Or whether the ‘young Muslims’ were 14-year-old girls, groomed by fanatics to be jihadi brides. But if you answer ‘yes’, you may be surprised to find yourself described as having ‘sympathy for jihadis’. Such are the perils awaiting British Muslims who respond to opinion poll questions.

The Sun this week found itself in a row about a front-page headline: 1 IN 5 BRIT MUSLIMS’ SYMPATHY FOR JIHADIS. The poll, by Survation, had asked a rather different question: what level of ‘sympathy’ the respondents had ‘with young Muslims who leave the UK to join fighters in Syria’. A small proportion — 5 per cent — had ‘a lot of sympathy’, and 15 per cent had ‘some sympathy’. But sympathy lay with the young Brits, not the Isis jihadis — and there is a difference.

It’s the latest of many polls since 9/11 which ask Muslims if they have sympathy for the devil. Typically, these polls declare that a significant minority does. Even if just 5 per cent are found to entertain crazy ideas, it’s then argued, that amounts to 130,000 people. But what is seldom asked is: what about the non-Muslims? Given that you’ll find a significant minority agreeing with any crazy proposition — Elvis still being alive, light sabers being real — how much weight should we attach to the polls which purport to identify embryonic British jihadism?


In fact, Survation put exactly the same question to non-Muslims in March — and found that one in six had ‘sympathy’ with young Brits going to join fighters in Syria. Not very different from the Muslims. But what about political affiliation?

This week, The Spectator asked YouGov to put the same question to its regular polling panel. They found that 10 per cent had ‘sympathy’, but this rose to 17 per cent among Liberal Democrat voters. Proof, if any were needed, of the danger created by the last election, which turfed so many Lib Dem MPs out of parliament and out on to the streets.

Shortly after the Charlie Hebdo attacks, the Today programme asked Muslim residents in High Wycombe whether they thought the magazine should have published its cartoons of the Prophet Mohammed. Some said no. Others questioned the morality of printing such pictures, given the potential for offence. I live in the town and I know plenty of people who hold the latter view, but the Today programme would never have approached them, because they weren’t Muslim. Even if Muslims and non-Muslims have similar views on the limits of freedom of speech, it’s apparently worth checking with only one group.

Not so very long ago, Muslims were being left alone and Catholics were being asked whether they had sympathy with IRA attacks. Even in day-to-day politics, those with religious convictions are always interrogated about whether their faith clouds their judgment, while those with secular stances whose judgment may prove equally unsound are left alone. Tim Farron had to endure a painful session on the radio about how his praying to God affects how he votes. Yet broadcasters never delved into what led his atheist predecessor Nick Clegg to back certain policies.

We all have a world view — whether it is religious, relativist or unclassifiable. And though everyone’s world view is a funny jumble of assumptions and personal experiences, only a few groups are singled out for scrutiny. Are you an anti-abortion atheist? Or someone who voted Labour all their life simply because their parents did? Is one person’s world view automatically exempt from scrutiny, while another’s should always be viewed with suspicion, just because part of it involves going to a mosque?

Britain clearly does have a problem with homegrown extremism, and it’s important to gauge the extent of that problem. But any poll which puts questions to Muslims is useful only if it is set alongside a comparison poll which puts the same questions to non-Muslims. If you torture the data for long enough, you can show anything. Any poll of any group in Britain will always find a small minority supporting the bizarre or the deplorable — that doesn’t make the whole group gullible, or crazy. And it certainly doesn’t mean that the average British Muslim harbours any sympathy for the Islamic State.

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Show comments
  • trobrianders

    All Muslims are united in their fear of Allah. There’s just no getting round it.

    • Fraser Nelson

      Yes, that’s kinda the point. And Christians are united in their fear of God

      • Atlas

        Indeed, but in recent history Christianity has become ever less relevant to our society and ever more tame in its utterances to the point where it is essentially harmless.

        Islam by contrast remains a deeply sexist, homophobic, anti-Semitic and violent ideology that is thus a threat to the very liberal society that we claim to be representing when we tolerate Islam.

        • Jack Rocks

          It’s even worse than that. Were radical Mullahs publicly calling for Sharia Law to have legal force in the UK for Muslims, or was it our very own Archbishop of Canterbury? (It’s not a trick question, he really did).

        • Colonel Mustard

          That is revisionist. Christianity was essentially harmless for a long period when it was relevant, indeed central, to our society. Religion tensions seem to have been exacerbated since Blair’s religious hatred law was introduced.

          Recently a rather unpleasant new fundamentalist religion of militant atheism has arisen, whose missionaries want to denounce anyone who doesn’t share their faith that there is no God.

          • Flintshire Ian

            Do you mean when the Christian church of the boss classes promised a better afterlife if the peasants behaved themselves during this one?
            Sounds rather like the promise of 72 virgins doesn’t it?

          • hobspawn

             “Sounds rather like the promise of 72 virgins doesn’t it?”

            No, it doesn’t, because the Christian reward is for charity, kindness, deference, decency and pacifism, not murder. It is regrettable that you and the atheist warriors currently betraying this country can’t tell the difference.

          • Flintshire Ian

            It’s all about jam tomorrow if you do what you are told today.
            My mate the lapsed Catholic (adultery, divorce) tells me that those of us who don’t believe in imaginary gods should still recognise the good works done by the church and the moral guidance. And up to a point, I do.

          • hobspawn

            Join the club. We Christians don’t believe in “imaginary gods” either.

          • S Cruise

            “Christianity was essentially harmless for a long period”

            It wasn’t harmless to non-believers, pagans, gays & women. And it wasn’t harmless to Christians who disagreed with the many different, and often more dominant, variants of Christianity. It’s still not harmless – especially in places like the US and Africa. Those who differ are still denied equality & the same degree of privilege and respect.

          • hobspawn

            Don’t forget the Spanish Inquisition. About 3000 executed over a period of 400 years. Make sure you know who your enemy is.

          • goodsoldier

            Tell me where these ‘harms’ are demanded of Christians in the New Testament?

          • S Cruise

            Harms “demanded” or harms influenced? I’m not going to be spouting off tons of bible verses here – there’s far too many. But those verses have influenced the attitudes that many Christians hold against those who differ from their identity – or their interpretation of Christianity. You’ve only got to look at the religious right in the US(see rightwingwatch.org) – and the kill the gays bill in Uganda, as examples. Then there’s the ostracism for leaving the faith that many suffer – even from their own families. That sort of thing is quite common in areas of the US. And look at some of our own history in the UK that saw women without legal rights – all influenced by the bible. I could go on.

            Please don’t pretend Christianity or the bible hasn’t had any negative impact – or that Christianity hasn’t caused any harm – because it has and does.

            As a previous poster mentioned though, Christianity has become less relevant to society. The same needs to happen with Islam.

          • goodsoldier

            So you cannot really answer my question. Shallow and trendy are your middle names.

          • S Cruise

            Shallow and trendy are you middle names? Very Christian of you. I refuse to get into a long-winded debate about bible verses and their interpretation. However, everything I’ve said can be substantiated: for instance, there’s numerous verses that denigrate non-belief; and there are also verses that depict women as inferior; just read up on Colossians, Corinthians, Ephesians, Timothy and Peter. To suggest such verses had no influence on Christian attitudes towards women, or that they didn’t give rise to canon law (erunt animae duae in carne una, for example) would require a vast ignorance and denial on your part. Of course, the canon law mentioned, influenced by the bible, caused no end of problems for women in this country: a women couldn’t take her husband to court because of it(he could beat here, rape her, keep her a prisoner in her own home – and it wouldn’t be legally recognised as a crime.) Such laws, of course, were abolished before and after WW2 – even as late as the 1990’s). Since then, women have since gained more rights legally. I won’t go into the problems with anti-Semitism/Judaism that Christianity influenced, or the problems caused with it attitudes towards gays, etc. Those things should be blatantly obvious for anyone with a limited understanding of history and current affairs.

            Maybe you should read up on the history of Christianity and examine how the bible influenced peoples views; start with the “much esteemed” Thomas Aquinas or the later Martin Luther; they had some interesting biblical views on women. And examine their views on others also: pagans, Jews and non-believers. You may learn something.

          • trobrianders

            You’re either an atheist or in denial of that fact. But we’re all equal under the law. Even fanatic atheists need only be subject to the law.

      • stickywicket

        But it’s absurd that so many people are frightened of imaginary sky fairies.

        • Colonel Mustard

          I find the expression “imaginary sky fairies” absurd. It is just used as a scornful provocation by rather unpleasant militant atheists. You believe what you want but have the courtesy to let others do the same. That is the British way.

          • trobrianders

            The question to ask might be is scornful provocation the right response to people who deliberately confuse denial for belief.

        • goodsoldier

          Are you frightened of your imaginary thoughts? Your thoughts are supernatural.

      • Mr B J Mann

        So when polls show the indigenous English love thy neighbour and have sympathy for them it’s only down to a vestigial subconscious belief in a marginalised and dying religion.

        But when polls show that those of immigrant stock have sympathy with J!hadis they fear that if they too won’t join in the k!lling spree A11ah won’t be best pleased!

      • trobrianders

        I guess you really must have been born into a Muslim household in Britain to see the essential difference between fear of Allah and fear of God. A pity as your survival may depend on it.

      • hobspawn

        Your equivocation is disgusting, you lying traitor. The point is this: who lives in fear of Christians today? The Koran, the word of Allah, repeatedly and unambiguously exhorts the reader to slaughter innocents. The Bible goes out of its way to do the opposite. “Let he who is without blame cast the first stone”. Grow up you mindless Tory slave.

      • Alexsandr

        But Christians don’t go round killing people. Look here. tell me which religion is he problem
        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_terrorist_incidents,_2015

        Deniers of the evils of Islam as as complicit in stuff like Paris as are the gunmen themselves. We have been lied to by politicians and the press for too long and have sleepwalked into the problem of islamic terrorism in Europe.

        But we know now, and people who blather on about ‘nothing to do with islam’ and similar platitudes just look silly.

  • Sunshine Sux

    British Muslims betray themselves every day, with their thundering silence.
    5 Muslims speaking up, in a country that hosts over 4 Million of them, is not enough. But it tells us exactly where their allegiances lie.

    • Kasperlos

      Precisely! Were they at Royal Wootton Bassett to honour the fallen returned? Were they in the streets to demonstrate against the murder of soldier Lee Rigby. Were they vocal in denouncing the Tunisia massacre of innocent British holidaymakers? Have they assembled to march in support of the Western Tradition, of the values of the United Kingdom which has given them succor? We have seen little to nothing of displays of allegiance from the broad British Mohammedan community. For them silence may be golden but it screams treason.

      • Sunshine Sux

        They were too busy making ‘Behead all infidels’, and ‘Death to those who insult Islam’, and ‘We are all Hamas’ placards.

      • hobspawn

        Hey, don’t be too harsh on them. About 30 turned up in Paris to protest against the Friday 13th RE lesson.

  • Atlas

    Was this meant for the guardian but published here in error?

    The Sun poll is consistent with multiple polls undertaken over the years all of which confirm what is also supported by anecdote, that a large portion of British Muslims will admit to hating western civilisation and Britain and believe that violence is an acceptable means of seeking the transformation of those two things. W you should assume that a further portion of British muslims hold similar views but don’t admit to them.

    • trobrianders

      All correct but it’s useful to understand why. It’s not because so-called moderate Muslims are psychos but because they fear Allah. It is inconceivable to Muslims that they side with non-believers against those who ‘believe’ no matter how extreme they are. It is this fear that must be broken.

    • goodsoldier

      But they sure do believe and love our welfare state.

  • stickywicket

    You have a point here Isabel, in that of course polls can be misleading. But of course after Hebdo, a BBC poll showed some 27% of British Muslims had some sympathy for the killers: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/11433776/Quarter-of-British-Muslims-sympathise-with-Charlie-Hebdo-terrorists.html

    Of course, this shows a majority of British Muslims do not sympathise with the killers. But, there is a worryingly large minority who have some views that many others will be very concerned about.

    We do need to work out how we tackle this latent extremism without alienating all Muslims. But burying our head in the sand and pretending there’s not a problem will not solve it.

    I do understand that some Muslims are very upset if images of the prophet are published. But, I am sorry, we simply cannot have a situation where the majority of the country have to tip-toe around Islam in a way that we simply do not have to with other religions.

    Any and all religions should be subject to the same scrutiny and ridicule. Think about it, some people believe in a sky fairy, and they also believe someone who lived 1,450 years ago was his prophet and it is not acceptable to publish images of that prophet. The whole proposition is absurd.

    I find it absurd and I am very worried and deeply offended that anyone who dares to ridicule a particular religion should be subject to a murder order.

    • Colonel Mustard

      I don’t think any religious person believes in a “sky fairy” as such. That is a pejorative term that seems to be contrived and used by militant atheists to ridicule the faithful.

      I find it absurd that in a country of religious tolerance like the UK anyone who has no personal belief in God should want to publicly ridicule the faith of others where it does not impinge on anyone else. That seems pretty intolerant.

      • stickywicket

        But that is the point isn’t it. There are some extremists of one particular faith that do impinge on everyone else and they reserve the right to kill anyone who does not believe or who ridicules their belief.

        Indeed they think it is fine to kill and oppress gays, stone to death adulterers, rape young girls and murder apostates.

        Yes, Christianity went through it’s own similar bout of insanity, but that is gone now.

        It is simply unacceptable to make any religion beyond ridicule on pain of death.

        I have no problem with anyone believing what they like. But when those beliefs call for death or injury to others they become unacceptable.

        Think about it if Monty Python had made a film called Life of Ahmed instead of Life of Brian, they would all have been killed by now.

        • hobspawn

           “Yes, Christianity went through it’s own similar bout of insanity, but that is gone now.”

          No, it didn’t. Christianity has never been a pro-violent religion. You have been misled.

          • stickywicket

            Nobody expected the Spanish Inquisition or the witch trials.

          • hobspawn

            The Spanish Inquisition executed about 3000 people over a period of 400 years. Look up the record of socialism in the 20th century. Efforts to paint the Christian era as an unnecessary bloodbath are just a load of bollocks. There never was a safer time.

      • Wolfgang Amadeus

        What if you believe religion is, on balance, harmful to humanity? Then you would have a moral obligation to be intolerant of it.

      • S Cruise

        I agree most theists don’t believe in a “sky fairy” as such. Some go further and claim whatever it is they believe in exists outside of space and time, and then some. Either way, they don’t seem to provide anything of substance to justify such beliefs. Having said that, people are entitled to believe in the existence of whatever they want – whether it’s fairies, gods, demons, anal-probing aliens, whatever. But the moment they start to impose their beliefs on others through our educational system or government – or through tyranny and violence – you can’t expect others to shut up and say nothing. Many beliefs are worthy of questioning and ridicule – especially when those beliefs impinge on our lives.

      • Alexsandr

        I dont believe in god, allah or any other deity. In fact I believe fervently there is no diety of any sort. If people want to wave their bottoms in the air on a Friday that’s fine. But I have a real issue when people use their religion as an excuse for killing or abusing people.
        I do find the fact people do believe in religion inexplicable, however.

      • freddiethegreat

        Thank you, sir!

      • stickywicket

        I am not a militant atheist. You are free to believe what you like. Just as I am free to believe what I like. And my belief is that the idea of a universal supranatural super-being is absurd, as is following to the letter a book that was written many centuries ago, even if some of those teachings are a useful start point for a moral code.

        There are very limited circumstances in which I believe it is justifiable to engage in violence against others.

        Fighting those who wish to harm or kill others because they don’t share their beliefs is one.

        Popper was right. To protect tolerance we must fight intolerance :

        “Less well known is the paradox of tolerance: Unlimited tolerance must lead to the disappearance of tolerance. If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them.”

      • Damaris Tighe

        Well said. This gratuitous ridicule happens far too often.

    • Hippograd

      Poll schmolls. Muslims are a minority, already. Minorities are saintly and blameless. All of them. Especially the most oppressed and misjudged minority of all.

    • freddiethegreat

      The atheist relgion is particularly intolerant, I find.

      • stickywicket

        From Popper:

        “Less well known is the paradox of tolerance: Unlimited tolerance must lead to the disappearance of tolerance. If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them.”

        If we wish to protect tolerance we must be intolerant of intolerance.

  • Jack Rocks

    Funny. I was listening to Douglas Murray on a podcast last night talking about the way certain commentators (the majority of them in fact) start arm-waving whenever Islam is criticised. He talked about how, for example, if there’s a problem in Muslim faith schools with teachers handing out Saudi Wahhabist anti-Western material, the commentariat write about it as if the problem was faith schools in general, not just Islamic ones.

    Nobody seems to want to talk about Islam and Muslims as in any way different from, say, Quakers. But as Sam Harris points out what you believe affects how you behave. There’s a big difference between a radical Janist and a radical Islamist. This is completely obvious. The list of radical Janist atrocities is very short indeed.

    • crosscop

      My comment above is awaiting approval ( which means it will be censored) for calling a spade a spade.

    • Wolfgang Amadeus

      “All religions are the same, and they are all equally positive and equally incapable of doing ill.” That seems to be the unspoken rule among the politicians and the media.
      Anyone who has seen the news over the last, say, 40 years knows better. Belief systems are NOT equal simply because they happen to be belief systems. No one would suggest the tenets of the Nazis and the Tories/Liberals/LibDems are equally valid simply because they all happen to be political platforms. No one should suggest the same for religions.

      • Alexsandr

        just look here
        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_terrorist_incidents,_2015

        how many are islam, and how many not. Now someone tell me Islam isnt the problem.

        • What say you about this? Those who attack mosques are Muslims? Why would Muslims attack their own worship place?
          Open your eyes, Terrorism has no religion.

          • Rowenna

            There are different sects within Islam and it is almost ‘normal’ for one sect to be in violent conflict with another when viewed throughout Islamic countries and throughout history. Also the culture that is inherent within Arab nations is one of tribalism and so that also adds to conflict.

            Just consider honour killings which involve killing a member of their own family (for various reasons) and is considered justified under Islamic law.

            Your comment implies that the value system of Muslims are the same as non-Muslims when clearly they are not.

          • Wolfgang Amadeus

            Terrorism has no religion, but islam today is responsible for the vast majority of violence committed specifically in the name of religion.

          • Zaba

            On average, 5 a day islamic terror attacks since 9-11.
            All recorded here:

            thereligionofpeace.com

          • Zaba

            Those who attack mosques are Muslims……

            Hundreds of recorded cases.
            All part of the koranic victimhood meme:

            Ye are the best of peoples, evolved for mankind, enjoining what is right, forbidding what is wrong, and believing in Allah. If only the People of the Book [Christians and Jews] had faith, it were best for them: among them are some who have faith, but most of them are perverted transgressors. (3:110)

        • Zaba

          Now someone tell me Islam isnt the problem.

          Most muzlims wil tell you that.

      • Damaris Tighe

        It’s suggested for religions because most people holding the view ‘all religions are the same’ are westerners thinking outside the religious paradigm. They often also subscribe to ‘a plague on all their houses’ attitude to religion & are religiously illiterate, knowing as little about their grandparents’ religion as they do about Islam. In their abject ignorance & bemusement about religious ways of thinking, they simply wash their hands of the problem & the need to discern & make judgements.

    • Man on the Clapham omnibus

      Part of the problem with the surveys is their choice of wording: sympathy is an ambiguous word that might be interpreted as – supporting the actions undertaken; feeling sorry for the individuals concerned; or, understanding the motives of these individuals. As consequence the surveys are useless.

      • Jack Rocks

        That’s very true.

      • Rowenna

        I think you are correct here but am not inclined to offer the benefit of the doubt. The whole reason such ambiguous terms are used is because if they asked what they really wanted to ask they would be accused of Islamophobia and whoever created the report would be likely to have to resign from their job in the resulting backlash and be lucky to escape hate speach charges (ref. Geert Wilders and Marine Le Pen).

    • GoJebus

      ” 10% of Muslims believing something has very different consequences to 10% of Liberal Democrats”

      Yes, spot on. That is the nub of this discussion. Instead of a poll asking the same question of Liberal white voters and Muslims, why don’t you instead put a cartoon of, oh I don’t know, say, Mohammed with a bomb in his turban, on the front page of the spectator. Then, count how many Liberals have set fire to stuff in the street, threatened you with death or broken into your offices and murdered your staff, compared to the Muslim contingent.

      • Jack Rocks

        These days I expect quite a few “liberals” would be setting fire to stuff in the street.

  • Dagenhamboy

    The author misses the point about Islam. Muslims believe it is the perfect, unalterable word of God and therefore not open to interpretation. It is their duty to convert the world, by force if necessary. Unbelievers can be lied to, killed, raped and enslaved if it furthers the cause of Islam. Leaving the faith is punishable by death. Multiple wives and slavery. Women as second class citizens. Their prophet is held up as the perfect man whose actions and deeds are to be emulated, including having relations with a young child (which might explain the abuses by Muslim men in Rotherham and Rochdale?) and the murder of prisoners by beheading (poor Lee Rigby and others in the Middle East).
    Islam recognises no state or law other than its own.
    There is no such thing as moderate Islam, just those who are less devout in their faith.
    Please read the Quran and Hadiths to discover the real facts about the religion of peace and stop listening to the appeasers.
    Islam is incompatible with Democracy.

    • hobspawn

      But at least you know where you are with a true muslim. He openly wants to kill you, and you can plan for that. Far more dangerous are those who are determined to help him kill you, before killing them. People like Isabel Hardman and David Camoron.

    • Gilbert White

      So simple but Isabel cannot see this?

  • BillRees

    It goes without saying that a majority of Muslims wouldn’t think of supporting the jihadis who recently wreaked havoc in Paris.

    But a small minority do support them, and it hardly matters what the proportion is of the whole.

    If more Muslims are attracted to the fundamentalist tenets of their religion, then that’s a problem for all of us, whether or not The Sun is spinning the results of a survey.

    • Alexsandr

      ‘It goes without saying that a majority of Muslims wouldn’t think of supporting the jihadis who recently wreaked havoc in Paris.’
      How do you know that? or wishful thinking?

  • Clive

    If you held an opinion poll in Britain now, you would find a large number of people, possibly a majority, who had sympathy with Vladimir Putin as a ‘strong man’ against the savages of Daesh – and I have even heard people say, a man who is not particularly corrupt.

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2015/02/20/is-vladimir-putin-hiding-a-200-billion-fortune-and-if-so-does-it-matter/
    …The latest estimate of Putin’s absurd wealth comes from Bill Browder, a former fund manager in Russia who is now one of the Russian president’s fiercest critics on the world stage. Browder recently published a book that detailed the tragic story of how a financial crime in Putin’s Russia resulted in the imprisonment and death of Browder’s firm’s tax lawyer, Sergei Magnitsky. Browder was on CNN’s “Fareed Zakaria GPS” to talk about the book last weekend when he threw out an incredible estimate of Putin’s net worth.

    “I believe that [Putin is worth] $200 billion,” Browder said. “After 14 years in power of Russia, and the amount of money that the country has made, and the amount of money that hasn’t been spent on schools and roads and hospitals and so on, all that money is in property, bank, Swiss bank accounts, shares, hedge funds, managed for Putin and his cronies.”…

    This is a man who has caused the deaths of thousands of people in at least Georgia and Ukraine and biggest of all, in Chechnya. This was the Chechen War which Putin probably brought about himself by murdering about 300 Russians:

    http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/2012/nov/22/finally-we-know-about-moscow-bombings/
    …In 2000 Sergei Kovalev, then the widely respected head of the Russian organization Memorial, observed in these pages that the apartment bombings in Russia in September 1999, which killed three hundred people and wounded hundreds of others, “were a crucial moment in the unfolding of our current history. After the first shock passed, it turned out that we were living in an entirely different country….”1

    The bombings, it will be recalled, were blamed on Chechen rebels and used as a pretext for Boris Yeltsin’s Kremlin to launch a bloody second war against Chechnya, a republic in the Russian Federation. They also were crucial events in promoting Vladimir Putin’s takeover of the Russian presidency as Yeltsin’s anointed successor in 2000 and in ensuring his dominance over the Russian political scene ever since…

    …But the official explanations did not quell suspicions about FSB complicity among liberal, anti-Yeltsin journalists who were already making their own investigations. Their suspicions were intensified by a strange incident that occurred on September 22 in the city of Ryazan, about a hundred miles southeast of Moscow.3 Residents of an apartment complex had reported unusual activity in the basement and observed that three people in a car with partially papered-over license plates had unloaded sacks whose contents they couldn’t make out. A professional bomb squad arrived and discovered that the sacks contained not only sugar but also explosives, including hexogen, and that a detonator was attached. After the sacks were examined and removed, they were sent by the local FSB to Moscow.

    The entire apartment building was evacuated. Local authorities found the car used by the three who had planted the explosives, a white Zhiguli, in a nearby parking lot. To their astonishment the license plates were traced to the FSB. And when they apprehended two of the suspects, it turned out that they were FSB employees, who were soon released on orders from Moscow.

    After a day and a half of silence, Patrushev announced on television that the apparent bomb had been part of a “training exercise” and that the sacks contained only sugar. The local Ryazan FSB and regular police, who had been combing the city for more explosives, expressed outrage. In the words of one police official: “Our preliminary tests showed the presence of explosives…. As far as we were concerned, the danger was real.”…

    The war in Chechnya killed about 300,000 people and it was the child of Putin’s popularity.

    Putin has his own ‘Putin Youth’ a bit like the Hitler Youth called the Nashi:
    From 2007, about a political opponent to Putin named Ryzhkov, in the election campaign for early 2008:
    http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/the-nashi-movement-russian-youth-and-the-putin-cult-a-514891.html
    …A group of young men from the local Nashi chapter likewise came to his home to pay their respects.

    “They gave a short speech and handed me an American flag,” says Ryzhkov. At the time, he brushed off the strange incident. But soon afterwards, a video appeared on the Internet showing Ryzhkov holding the flag and accusing him of being a CIA agent. “It also said that I wanted to lead an Orange Revolution,” recounts Ryzhkov.

    Orange, of course, is code in Russia — code for “treason” within Kremlin circles. Ever since the 2004 Orange Revolution in Ukraine, politicians and authorities have been deeply concerned that something similar could take place in Russia….

    Yet Putin is immensely popular in Russia and in parts of the West. How did that happen ? Well, Putin did not work for the KGB and then head the FSB for nothing. They have ‘troll factories’ who work to disseminate a favourable image of Putin everywhere:

    http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/apr/02/putin-kremlin-inside-russian-troll-house
    Just after 9pm each day, a long line of workers files out of 55 Savushkina Street, a modern four-storey office complex with a small sign outside that reads “Business centre”. Having spent 12 hours in the building, the workers are replaced by another large group, who will work through the night.

    The nondescript building has been identified as the headquarters of Russia’s “troll army”, where hundreds of paid bloggers work round the clock to flood Russian internet forums, social networks and the comments sections of western publications with remarks praising the president, Vladimir Putin, and raging at the depravity and injustice of the west….

    Yet even though all of this information is available to us. Even though we know about the murders of his critics like Alexander Litvinenko; Boris Nemtsov; Anna Politkovskaya and many others. Even though their murders were obviously carried out on the orders of Putin or his servants. Even though we know about the cynical corruption in sport that makes Lance Armstrong look like a saint, still, he would win support in an opinion poll here.

    How can we criticise Muslims for making ambiguous choices, even if they were immoral or stupid ?

    • Mr B J Mann

      What’s all that got to do with polling “British” Musl!ms?!

      Haven’t several US presidents been associated with dodgy deals?

      And at least one with mysterious deaths!

      In fact hasn’t at least one British PM?!

      • Clive

        Have any British PMs been involved with IRA bombings ? I mean directly involved in the planning of them ? That appears to be Putin’s relationship with the ‘Apartment bombings’ in Moscow which killed 300 Russians. They have never been properly investigated by the Russian govt, let alone solved.

        Has any American or British leader murdered his opponents into double digits ? They may have wanted to but they did not.

        Has any British or American leader brought about a no-holds-barred war in which 300,000 people died ? Then a ‘secret war’ to annex neighbouring state’s territory ? No, I wasn’t talking about Ukraine – I was talking about Abkhazia/South Ossetia.

        Then there’s Ukraine in which about 6,000 people have died. Of course, no Russians were involved with that. Vladimir Putin said so.

        • Mr B J Mann

          I wasn’t referring to the apartment bombings.

          And you seem happy to accept that American or British leaders murdered their opponents into single digits.

          What’s the difference between “a no-holds-barred war in which 300,000 people died” and shock and awe in which how many died? And how many in Libya? Syria?!

          It’s a good job Western leaders don’t start ‘secret wars’ to annex non-neighbouring state’s territory!

          Then there’s Ukraine in which about 6,000 people have died. Of course, no Americans were involved with that. All those Americans said so!

    • Nick

      I still like him.

  • Hippograd

    Ah. Young Muslim women waving Union Jacks. All our problems are over. But Nadiya had already solved them with her scrumptious cakes and her infectious, sharp-toothed smile.

    Sorry: not sharp-toothed. I was possessed by a hate-thinker for a moment there.

  • Mr B J Mann

    Can anyone point me in the direction of Izzy’s companion article rubbishing polls that purport to prove a majority have sympathy fo immigrants then?!

  • Wee Mental Davie

    Let’s not fool ourselves. The vast majority of the British public, do not like muslims or people of that ilk. We have all been preoccupied with the Middle East, as usual, and failed to notice we have imported all our problems. All of them.

    Now we must sort out our own country and look after the ethnic majority. If we don’t wake up soon, our future great grandchildren will be ALL coffee coloured and everyone will be muslim. This is our real threat. Not the punters with suicide vests.

    If the government does not acknowldge this fact soon, the politics of the people will move further right, until a final solution is found. It can all be done much easier now, before it’s too late. Perhaps the stupidity of previous politicians, have made it too late already.

    • itbeso

      Coffee coloured sounds fine. Muslim not so much.

      • Wee Mental Davie

        You mean you want grandkids with a hooked nose ? No thanks. I’ll stick with pure White. Not racist but self preservation of our ethnic identity in our own lands.

        • Flintshire Ian

          Preservation of our ethnic identity in our own lands isn’t such an unreasonable request.

        • Strewth! Now you sound like an anti-semite :^(

          • Wee Mental Davie

            I’m definitely not one of those. Relax.

          • Gilbert White

            No white person can escape the BBC and their Fagan. Any white person from this group who says otherwise is a liar?

    • trobrianders

      So you’re looking for a “final solution”?

      • Wee Mental Davie

        Ah. Not like that and fine you know.

        • trobrianders

          So how do you propose a co-existence?

          • Wee Mental Davie

            Co-existence is not optimum. Mutual decisions can be agreed and implemented without bloodshed, or force. It only requires very clever politics and a backbone. Enough killing and hatred is in this world at the moment. We do not need any more.

          • trobrianders

            There you go then. You make it sound easy.

      • Gilbert White

        Yes to bed as many as possible of females?

    • Oi! Not all coffee-coloureds are Muslims!

      • Wee Mental Davie

        And very beautiful they are too.

      • freddiethegreat

        Nothing wrong with coffee coloured. I have friends who are a light mocha java.

  • Wolfgang Amadeus

    “How much weight should we attach to the polls which purport to identify embryonic British jihadism?” Not much. But that is only because we aren’t very good at conducting polls. The information is still of the utmost importance.
    You can rest assured there will be future atrocities committed by Muslims specifically in the name of islam, and you can rest assured that, after the fact, other Muslims will launch quirky and cutesy social media campaigns mocking anyone for suggestion religion had anything to do with it.
    Assessing how Muslims really feel is important. They are not all terrorists (no one is suggesting they are), but nor are they all cutesy/quirky Muslims-lite who pretend the head-chopping bits of the quran don’t exist. The very big elephant in the room, one that every politician on planet earth seems afraid to acknowledge, is that muhammed was a killer. He has a great deal of blood on his hands. If people who commit violence in the name of islam aren’t “real” Muslims, by this logic, muhammed himself was not a real Muslim.

    • Alexsandr

      while many muslims wont go round commiting acts of violence, they may well be complicit. Do they really know where their Zakat goes? Does anyone look where islamic charities spend their money. I bet the useless charities commission dont.
      and how many other are the back room boys for the jihadists? or just dont inform the police of dodgy goings on.

  • E.I.Cronin

    ”But any poll which puts questions to Muslims is useful only if it is set alongside a comparison poll which puts the same questions to non-Muslims.”

    I don’t see why – what non-Muslim would have a valid answer on the appropriate punishment for apostasy; blasphemy; family law or other aspects of Sharia?

    ”Is one person’s world view automatically exempt from scrutiny, while another’s should always be viewed with suspicion, just because part of it involves going to a mosque?”

    Err… yes. Considering the explicit and repetitive hostility to non-Muslims in Islamic scripture we have urgent, justifiable reasons for suspicion. Reasons which would apply to any group in which potentially violent or hateful ideology is present.

    ”Any poll of any group in Britain will always find a small minority supporting the bizarre or the deplorable — that doesn’t make the whole group gullible, or crazy. And it certainly
    doesn’t mean that the average British Muslim harbours any sympathy for the Islamic State.”

    Progressives love this particular strawman. It’s a tactic to avoid discussing the scriptural basis, historical application and sectarian interpretations of Jihad as well as avoiding the current security and social implications. Sam Harris can answer Isabel’s classic liberal evasion better than I:

    ”And contrary to what you imply in your question, I don’t offer any “blanket condemnations” of anything or anyone. I speak about the specific consequences of specific ideas, in so far as they are believed. If 68 percent of British Muslims believe that anyone who “insults Islam” should be prosecuted and punished—then when criticizing the disastrous consequences of that idea for the U.K., I’m talking about those 68 percent. If 30 percent want to live under shari’ah, then I’m talking about precisely those people in that context. These are real poll numbers, by the way, and they’re very troubling.”

    • crosscop

      Even more troubling is the obvious fact that these figures only represent those Muslims who are actually willing to tell the truth to the pollsters.

      • Sid Falco

        or the ones who speak enough English to understand the question…

      • Rowenna

        Yes and often such polls count anyone who considers themselves ‘Muslim’ rather than just those who consider themselves ‘practicing Muslims’.

        In one study on Muslims that I am familar with the survey did ask towards the end if the participant considered themselves to be a ‘practicing Muslim’ and only 80% said yes.

    • trobrianders

      It’s more accurate to speak of Leftist denial than Leftist belief as Leftist resort to strawman arguments demonstrate.

    • jeffersonian

      ‘Sam Harris can answer Isabel’s classic liberal evasion better than I:’

      Please don’t insult classical liberalism. Isabel’s evasion is of a modern relativist kind.

      • E.I.Cronin

        THAT is an excellent point. I stand corrected. I should have written ‘standard progressive evasion”.

  • Derek Lambada

    This sympathy for jihadis is far from the most worrying thing in Muslim attitudes in the UK.

    Depending on the poll nearly half want some sort of sharia law.

    So that’s death to gays, death to adulterers, death to people who leave Islam and death to anyone who criticises any of this.

    The figures are only that low because there is a general realisation that this is not a Muslim country. As the Muslim population increases and the country becomes more Islamic the figure will rise towards the levels we see in Pakistan or Egypt.

  • Jacobi

    Polls can produce any answer depending on the question asked and the choice of the respondent, we we can discount them. The need is to understand the religion.

    Islam in all forms stems from the deranged mind of its founder. He chopped and changed what he said according to circumstances and to to his random pre-occupation with paganism and other religions.

    The problem is that all such ramblings are considered to be orthodox Islam and therefore
    permissible in a range from peaceful evangelisation to massacre.

    The question to ask Muslims in the UK young or old is are you prepared to reject the violent urgings of your prophet, but bear in mind that you are unlikely to get an honest answer since lying to protect Islam is permissible. And there is your problem.

    I understand many Muslims in the UK complain they are under suspicion. Well they most certainly should be. We all have very good reason to be suspicious of them, however much they smile and whatever flag they wave,.

    • Alexsandr

      They are also secretive. anyone can go to a christian church and observe the service and listen to the sermon
      But infidels are generally not welcome at mosques so they are completely unmonitired. so the loony immams can say anything and we will be in compete ignorance.

      • freddiethegreat

        I’ve been to a mosque. I didn’t understand the prayers, but the sermon wasn’t up to much – pretty much a litany of “poor us, everyone’s against the brotherhood”

  • Johnny Foreigner

    Have the BBC not offered Isabel a job yet? All this effort, surely can’t be going to waste.

    • Alexsandr

      maybe a permanent gig at the speccie and appearance fees at the beeb pay better. The BBC stuff will be self employed so she can write a lot of expenses down to avoid tax and NI

    • Pip

      Indeed she seems shameless in her promotion of the establishment narrative and agenda.

      • Johnny Foreigner

        Thank goodness, I’m not the only one to notice.

  • PaD

    This article is a complete dogs dinner..I can’t be bothered to even comment properly on it.
    The columnist is getting paid for idle musings.

    • trobrianders

      The columnist is not used to having her idle musings challenged when she discusses them with her dinner party guests.

      • Alexsandr

        the columnist regards comments beneath her. so she writes in a bubble ignorant of other opinions. I call that breathtaking arrogance.

        • trobrianders

          Yes she’s certainly protected from reality. I envy her.

    • freddiethegreat

      Paid for idle musings?: Must be a journalist. Or a polictican. Or a sociologist.

  • Nick

    Look everybody,whether those muslims are so called moderates or hardliners,they all want to change the way we live in the west to their version of islam.

    We all know that.

    And just because they wave the Union Jack flag,smile and tell us they like fish and chips doesn’t mean they love and respect us and the UK.

    It’s simply means they are prepared to wait while they slowly overtake us and then finish us.While our journalists and politicians watch it happen like stunned mullets.

    • Alexsandr

      its called taqiyya

  • Toy Pupanbai

    It is an insult to see these people with the Union Flag!
    Their credo, by its very nature, does not require them to think.

    • Daffy Duck

      Just image if the Scots had voted for independence.

      Something tells me that the delusional ones would rather eat a bacon sandwich than wave a white flag with a red cross. That angle of the debate was never discussed. If it was, I missed it.

      Dear pollster – Ask these young ladies if they would happily wave the English Flag.

      • crosscop

        Of course they would – as long as the cameras were there.

    • aguafiesta

      The incompatibility of the two banners, hijab and Union Flag, was my first thought, too.

  • Badger

    What does an ‘extremist’ believe that a ‘moderate’ does not?
    I hear a lot of protestation but I’m yet to hear explanation.

    • Alexsandr

      they all must believe in the whole so called holy book, or they are not a true Muslim.

  • Daffy Duck

    There are lies, damn lies and pollsters.

    • Alexsandr

      and taqiyya

  • evad666
    • hobspawn

      Thank you, a very informative document. Essential reading for anyone who wishes to understand how we came to be in this mess.

  • Sean L

    If I ask a member of group X a question, his answer is of no “use” because I haven’t also asked a member of group B the same question? Perhaps, if the question’s only significance is its relative statistical value!

    As for answers to questions about Elvis on Mars, have followers of Elvis now formed a group, some of whose members dedicate themselves to blowing up non-believers, or what?

  • Tamerlane

    In Otranto Cathedral you can see the bones of the 800 martyrs dragged out by the Ottomans in 1480 and beheaded for their Christianity. I wonder, at what point, do we stop this ‘nothing to do with Islam’ tosh, grow up, stop being so fearful and confront the blindingly obvious – this is exactly Islam, the way it is and the way it has always been.

    • Witch

      Only 800? Don’t make so called Eastern European laugh.:) Did you never hear about the Battle of Varna in 1444? And everything what happened there after? Up to the 20th century and a downfall of the Ottoman Empire? Never heard about the Armenian Genocide? Hamidian massacre 1894-96: 100,000 to 300,000 Armenian victims. Adana massacre in 1909: 15,000 to 30,000 victims. And the Great War and the Armenian holocaust in 1915-16: up to 80,000 villagers burnt alive in the Muş plain . 50,000 women and children from Trabzon province drowned in the Black Sea and etc. etc. Arnold J Toynbee, an intelligence officer of the British Foreign Office, estimated that 600,000 Armenians “died or were massacred” during only a year 1915, the total number of Armenian victims to the end of the war could reach a number of 1,5 million victims. Eh, man, don’t talk us about 800 in 15th century…
      No, you don’t know the real history of the Ottoman Empire, as the Turkey always was your ally against the Russians for the strategic position on the Black Sea. The Britons use to know only the history that is comfortable for them and print new editions of old papers according to their current political targets – Orwell was bloody right…

      • Tamerlane

        I’m afraid the truth is no one cares about your monkey man history and faux culuture. Just ask the Germans. Never mind – one day we’ll take the Slavs seriously, mean time if you’re free my drains need unblocking. 😉

      • saliha

        Fantastic rendition.. can’t agree more with the above and how history is so slectivley chosen

      • LeonardSkinnard

        “…as the Turkey always was your ally against the Russians…”

        Just a snippet of history.for you:

        “Colonel Beauchamp and the Sandringhams were overwhelmed by their Turkish enemies…

        They were either captured or they surrendered…

        The Turks took no prisoners…

        So they were butchered…and buried.”

        Your comments are at times absurd and risible.

      • freddiethegreat

        Homosexuality isn’t trivial. It’s as big a disaster as a nuclear strike. Just different manifestations.

  • colchar

    A distinction without a difference methinks.

  • insomniac

    Stats for radical muslims that have not been manipulated and biased by liberal media for political purposes are much more frightening than most people realize. What we think is a minority of the 1.6 billion Muslims that may be a problem might actually be a majority. Have a look at this short video that gives a quick rundown of Muslims that have been polled for their opinions: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g7TAAw3oQvg

  • Mc

    The difference is that the minority of non-Muslim crazies doesn’t produce people who kill others, using religion as their justification for murder.

  • Not all Muslims are terrorists, but ALL Muslims revere a terrorist prophet. Which rather explains the global problem we see historically and today. There is no point being subjective about Islam Ms Hardman, one must be objective. Objective reality is the Koran and the hadiths. Objective reality is Somalia, Kenya, Syria, Saudi Arabia, Paris, London and Brussells. Anything else is appeasing, journalistic duplicity.

    • I wish I could upvote your comment 1,000 times!

  • Hippograd

    If Muslims aren’t “extremist”, why are Muslim countries so hostile to female and gay rights? They are the most important things in the universe, obviously, to right-thinking folk:

    Where is it illegal to be gay?

    As for FGM: even Wikipedia can’t weasel its way out of the clear link with the Religion of Peace:

    Religious views on female genital mutilation (FGM) vary even within the same religious tradition. FGM is found only within and adjacent to Muslim communities,[1] but the practice predates Islam, and is not required by it.[2] The only Jewish group known to have practiced it are the Beta Israel of Ethiopia.[3] There is no unequivocal link between religion and prevalence.[4] It is generally accepted that there is no close link between the practice and religious belief. Despite this, there is a widespread view in several countries, particularly in Mali, Eritrea, Mauritania, Guinea and Egypt, that FGM is a religious requirement.[5]

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_views_on_female_genital_mutilation

  • douglas redmayne

    Many Muslims may be supporting ISIS but do not dare say so as they are aware of security service monitoring. The true figure may be 80%. Typical of metropolitan media scum like Isabel Hard man to try to put a pro Muslim Spon on this; all netrolopolitans hate their country and everyone outside their smug stock up virtue signalling social circle of self righteous Oxbridge turds.

    • LeonardSkinnard

      Harsh.
      But fair.

    • Witch

      Although I do NOT share your views on Isabel Hard and the pathetic 10-15% of the Britons really educated to European and American standards, I have to agree with you in one point: I also think that the real sympathy for the ones that joined Da’esh is much higher than the “1 in 5”, but for a different reason that you and the rest of the ‘true English’ think.
      I wrote about it last night here, including a presentation of the mechanism of the phenomenon, but unfortunately some brainless and over politically correct censor cut the comment. Generally the sympathy (what doesn’t mean any practical support including the purely financial one – in fact it’s more ‘standing idly by’) has really nothing common with Islam (maybe only in the TRUE Marx’s meaning: “Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions. It is the opium of the people”), but everything common with our own xenophobia, myths of our cultural, moral and even racial ‘priority’, our institutional racism and our ‘glass ceilings’ that made your educated and creative Muslims to build their ‘state inside the state’ to use their qualifications. It’s NOT my PC – it’s a result of serious American studies on British Muslims’ isolationism in Leicester and other similar places.
      Sorry, Brits, but as long you can’t see your own guilt in the problem, as long the Da’esh terrorism will be the real threat here, as the extremists wouldn’t be excluded and punished in their own communities.

      • LeonardSkinnard

        It is probably because your presentation is extremely poor, and your “facts” are simply inadequate.

      • Davey

        ‘Our own guilt’!!!! I don’t know who you are missus, but that makes my blood boil. Ours is THE most tolerant nation on earth, and the ordinary Brit gets dumped on constantly because of it. We have opened our doors to all nations and all creeds in the last few decades, and this fair land is bursting at the seams because of it. We’ve shared our health service, our welfare system, our education system, our rule of law and (broadly speaking) our tolerance for others with anyone who fancies some of it. If any of this is inadequate, as you suggest above, then maybe that is because our institutions are all being stretched to breaking point. This is a nation whose people like and revel in (in no particular order) soap operas, reality TV, watching football, playing sport, pop music, going to the pub with mates, a good sing-song, getting pissed on a Friday night, Sunday roast and dog-walking. Before you accuse me of being brainless, as is your wont it seems, I don’t myself indulge in all of these activities, but acknowledge that this is part of being British. However,do any of those activities sound like the typical Muslim to you? Of course not. If they have failed to assimilate, then maybe they are just simply in the wrong place

  • Witch

    As a social scientist myself I will save you my opinion on methodology of the poll and the Sun itself, as it’s a waste of time. My general view is: we deal – simply – with a political spin here that is based on another ‘religion’, i.e. a deep belief (yeah, a belief, not knowledge) of your poorly educated masses in the Holy Science.
    In fact the ‘research’ didn’t say nothing more than a usual mantra of the gutter press in order to CONFIRM already existent beliefs of their readers, so the Sun will be again ‘always right’ for them like… Katie Hopkins. This is NOT information. This is a pure brainwash and enforcement of the Sun own position in the media market as the Prophet of the Xenophobic Fools. And the high sale of the rag in UK worries me much more than the Sun “1 British Muslim in 5”.
    The Da’esh – for God sake – don’t kill for Allah! They USE Allah cynically to kill and revive the Ottoman Empire/ Great Caliphate in its former borders at least – it’s an important difference that no one seems to see here .
    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/06/OttomanEmpireIn1683.png
    I wrote below with an entire premeditation that a shameful fact that a homosexuality was punished in Britain with death penalty up to the year 1861 (sic!) on the base of the Buggery Act 1533 doesn’t mean this inhuman madness was the inhumanity of Anglicanism itself, just introduced by the same homophobic Henry The Eight. About a religion as ‘opium for the masses’ and its use as a handy tools by ruthless politicians I already wrote in another place.

    • freddiethegreat

      “Social scientist”. Contradiction in terms, isn’t it? Why not get a real job?

      • Witch

        In work for HO, son.

    • Snowmuncher

      Witch wrote “homosexuality was punished in Britain with death penalty up to the year 1861 (sic!) on the base of the Bug…. Act 1533 doesn’t mean this inhuman madness was the inhumanity of Anglicanism itself”

      Yes, and so what? We are in 2015. Irrelevant argument. If we could bring people into the future from the past and the Anglicans from 1750 were being persecuted and needed refuge in London in 2015, I would be almost equally reticent to bring them over and given them free housing, free medical care, free education and benefits, at an estimated cost of £24,000 each a year X 25k = £600 million a year.

      Obviously, no-one is claiming that there is a “homophobe” or “stone the adulterer to death” gene in Muslims, but that does not alter the fact that it is ingrained into their culture in the MENA countries and many other, and that even after 25 years, the culture will still be there, as witnessed by Jihadi John, aka Mohammed Emwazi and his many cohorts, and the many polls on Muslims which show for example 0% believe homosexuality is acceptable (Gallup and Guardian newspaper). The fact that people like you try to pretend that those who disagree with you do actually think that is disingenuous, because you are inventing a point that does not exist.

      But furthermore, I would prefer to bring over the year 1750 Anglicans, because at least like so many Muslims fresh from MENA countries, they do not have a pathological hatred of the West, and believe western women are of easy virtue.

      My guess would be that you have never lived and worked in a MENA country, and that have little experience in general of this issue. try reading the Pew Research Centre Study from 2013 and you will better informed.

      http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/the-worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-beliefs-about-sharia/

  • Steed

    “In fact, Survation put exactly the same question to non-Muslims in March — and found that one in six had ‘sympathy’ with young Brits going to join fighters in Syria. Not very different from the Muslims. But what about political affiliation?”

    Hold on a second. The poll to which you refer was conducted in March (i.e. before Paris) found “sympathy” at 13.7% for non Muslims, and there was a parallel poll aimed at Muslims with 27.9% expressing sympathy with those fighting in Syria. That’s double the rate – doesn’t that say something?

    It’s poor journalism to twist the facts don’t you know?

    • Witch

      The talk is NOT about the facts – in both cases it’s about OPINIONS. About the words, not the action that always speaks lauder…
      It’s NOT a ‘poor journalism’ – in both cases it’s a journalism in its essence.
      I said below that in my opinion British Muslims’ ‘sympathy’ for the ones that joined De’ash is higher than ‘1in 5’ but – in fact – it’s limited to the ‘standing idly by’ due to the well known British Muslims’ ISOLATIONISM. The isolationism caused only by one thing: you, Brits (or your rulers), turned the country into a net of ‘closed shops’. You never wanted your Muslims among you and made them to build their own ‘state inside a state’ and distance themselves from you and your problems. The both sides are to blame for the sick situation; the British democracy seems to be only a NAME…

      • LeonardSkinnard

        “…made them to build their own ‘state inside a state’ and distance themselves…”

        They did that all by themselves; and very deliberately.

        • Witch

          ONE evidence, one example of the last one please…
          The problem started in 1960s with the first bigger Asian immigration to UK and its clearly hostile reception by your working classes. Then we had ‘Paki bashing’ in 1970s and 1980s…
          You have to be very young, Leo, and cannot remember, but it really happened. I didn’t say that todays’ Britons are such primitive like the ones 50 or 30 years ago, but – unfortunately – today’s generations pay the price, on both sides. The evil was already born: the Muslim isolationism exists and the British nationalism and xenophobia is growing, as you feel yourselves under the threat (the goal of any terrorism in the world) and I really don’t know what to do to break the paranoia that is beneficial only for our rulers and their pals – the same old ‘divide at impera’ like in the antique Rome: divide and rule.
          We, the average people need unification before the monster called the Global Economy (Whose economy? Yours? Mine? Of the Muslim from a corner shop?) will suck all us dry.

          • I don’t want “unification” with muslims .. I am a homosexual. Islam wants to kill me, and uses muslims to do so.
            I prefer islam to be gone from the UK, and the Western world.

          • Zaba

            I’m working on the patent for:

            islambegone, spray or creme

      • Snowmuncher

        Witch wrote “in fact – it’s limited to the ‘standing idly by’ due to the well known British Muslims’ ISOLATIONISM. The isolationism caused only by one thing: you, Brits (or your rulers), turned the country into a net of ‘closed shops'”

        Oh, is that why the Cabinet has a higher proportion of those with a Muslim heritage than the population as a whole? A real closed shop.

        Do you have some reliable credible source for this theory of yours (and I don’t mean Conspiracy Weekly), or are you just talking out of your posterior.

      • Joe Long

        “You never wanted your Muslims among you”

        Of course we didn’t, so in what sense are they our Muslims?

      • Steed

        So why isn’t there British Indian isolationism? Where is the “Hinduophobia”? When you see the same pattern repeated across every country then you can’t blame the white guys for it in the way you do.

        Anyway, the facts are the facts – and that’s what I’m sticking to. If you don’t like the facts then go to the Guardian.

  • LeonardSkinnard

    “What the Indigenous People Think”.

    Why don’t you muslims go and live in a muslim country?

    • Witch

      Oh, man! Why you didn’t finish some proper school?

      • LeonardSkinnard

        “Why you didn’t finish some proper school?”

        Well, I obviously had far more rigorous, effective and informative schooling than you did…

        So which cesspit do you represent, because you are obviously not English.

        • Witch

          I have ‘only’ British PhD, Leo. Worse – I belong to the ‘Oxbridge freaks’ and have a very well paid job in Britain. I even could find some noble ancestors from at least 15th century, with some of them … at English court 2 centuries later.
          I also travelled well due to my profession, lived at least months in numerous countries from Russia to USA, and met plenty people of every race, nationality, religion, political views. I’m tied to UK only due my English husband of 20 years who’s unable to live in any other country – we tried. I’m NOT very keen of Britain, as know some much better. Without your two wet seasons in the year: one wet and cold and the other a lit bit wormer and usually even moister.
          Your first post was not only xenophobic, but also HIGHLY IGNORANT: the Muslims here are mainly the Muslims (and their offspring) that were INVITED TO UK by your governments to save their pals in your textile industry that died anyway 2-3 decades later. The people have the reason to feel that they were the next time used by you and your (or your rulers) postcolonial attitude.
          Fortunately they have a right to vote even without British citizenship as holders of Commonwealth passports.
          BTW. Your statement that I’m not an English doesn’t mean I have no right to have own opinions on the subject and take my part in the discussion. Of course I’m not English and I’m very proud of it. I even don’t use British passport (I have a double citizenship), or cars with UK number plates anywhere outside UK, as I don’t wish to be taken for the island mongrel.;) Of course, I’m joking, but you are the most hated nation in the world (including Europe) after the Yanks. People don’t like you (they can smile and bow, as they like your money), although – in fact – a majority of you are very decent and deeply Christian people, including your atheists. I know: the dislike of you is unjust, but do something with your expressions and subdued emotions. Be more a human, and less a ‘true English’ that barricaded himself in his ‘splendid isolation’. You – as well as your Muslims – remind me two Medieval knights with their steel armours that hammer each other over their mutton-heads to the bitter end.
          Another story that your twisted political correctness – as well as ‘Islamophobia’ as a special offence – cannot make you both to take their armours and make the first sensible step to mutual understanding. We need such a discussion like here, with different views and ideas everywhere in public life, not only at anonymous on-line forum.

          • Tamerlane

            Quit yer yapping Pavle and fix my boiler.

          • Snowmuncher

            Tell me Witch, where in Poland are you from?

  • TrippingDwarves

    Surely it should be ‘which’ not ‘what’.

  • jim

    What sort of gimp hasn’t yet realised that islam IS the problem?….. Islam AND their enablers in the universities and the media. ….People such as the author of this wretched article. .

    • Witch

      Every one who can read and write I’m suppose, Jim

    • Their “enablers” are quislings, and traitors to ALL freedoms and tolerance we stand for: it is time they stand trial for treason.

  • Zack Ford

    Results of survey doesn’t match my world view – survey was obviously misleading.

  • RavenRandom

    Quite a few weasel words in this article. We need to admit we have a problem, and the British Muslim community in particular need to admit they have a problem. Articles like this don’t do any good. Face the issue and solve it. Pretending it doesn’t exist perpetuates the problem.

    • Jack Rocks

      People are individuals not a homogenous group. There’s no “community”. Sure there are a few jumped up pompous twits who claim to speak for everyone, but mostly people freely associate with one another and speak for themselves. So who is the “they” in your comment?

      • RavenRandom

        I disagree, clearly groups of people have common concerns.

        • Jack Rocks

          They do but who speaks for you? I can’t think of anyone who speaks for me.

          • Snowmuncher

            I agree with Rod Liddle on everything I’ve ever read of his.

      • Witch

        You are right: in the West we have NOT anything similar to the community what is very comfortable for the ruling classes, the only people – except mafias – that keep together. Religion is a very old ‘glue’ that keeps communities together; I think that no other ideology has a similar power of unifications. Even nationalism (don’t mistake with patriotism). Pity, that we abandoned our God…

      • Zaba

        There’s no “community”.

        In islam?

        The Quran plainly tells Muslims that they are a favored race, while those of other religions are “perverted transgressors”:

        Ye are the best of peoples, evolved for mankind, enjoining what is right, forbidding what is wrong, and believing in Allah. If only the People of the Book [Christians and Jews] had faith, it were best for them: among them are some who have faith, but most of them are perverted transgressors. (3:110)

        http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/pages/quran-hate.htm

        • Jack Rocks

          I don’t care what a stupid book says. I’m talking about individuals. Who speaks for them? There’s no Pope.

          • Zaba

            Your concept does not exist in islam.
            The ‘stupid book’ sez islam means submission to allah and sharia.

          • Sue Smith

            The trouble is, Jack, that many millions of people DO care about “what a stupid book says”. And it’s troubling that you don’t get that simple truth.

            The people of Iran have a “Pope” called an Ayatollah. He also runs the country; no separation of religion and state. This doesn’t worry you a tad?
            Iran’s “Pope” wants a nuclear arsenal because he knows his religion and culture are worth fighting for. Unlike the west.

            Who’s the stupid one here?

          • Jack Rocks

            Stop changing the subject. Who speaks for all Muslims? Mo Ansar? Maajid Nawaz? Ayatollah Sistani? Before you can even attempt to deal with this problem you need to understand it. Simplistic “all Muslims should” arguments won’t get you very far.

    • Zaba

      And that problem becomes our problem.
      islam is incompatible with the West.

  • Snowmuncher

    Isabel Hardman,

    The Sun poll has not been the only poll about showing disturbing extremist views of significant percentages of British Muslims.

    Here’s one:

    According to a BBC poll for Radio 4 in March, 24% of British Muslims believe that violence is justified for the publication of the image of Mohammed. And 8% refused to answer or claimed they
    did not know. http://comres.co.uk/polls/bbc-radio-4-today-muslim-poll/ page 14.

    Note: JUSTIFY VIOLENCE, not sympathise.

    That’s getting on for 1 million British Muslims who have those extreme views. This was the justification that Saïd and Chérif Kouachi claimed for the cold blooded massacre of 12 innocents including many cartoonists holding their pencils when shot at close range with an AK47. As the Jihadists left they shouted “We have avenged the prophet” and “Allua Akbar”

    But go ahead, bury you head and pretend everything is fine, when since 1991 we have taken in 6.5 million non-EU immigrants mostly from the third world and of those, mostly Muslim. Yes, 6.5 million since 1991 (ONS data gross)

    • Roger Hudson

      24%! More like 94%!

    • Sue Smith

      I expect, in relation to that last paragraph, the unfolding narrative will speak more than adequately for itself. Unfortunately.

  • sidor

    The article, and the title are idiotically meaningless. It is like to ask the British “Christians” what they think about the radical Catholics from IRA.

    There is a religious war within Islam going on in the ME, Sunni Wahhabite organised in ISIS are killing the Shia and other Moslems who don’t share their crazy beliefs. Therefore, it is clear that the British Shia moslems would feel no sympathy to ISIS killing their people whereas the Sunni radicals would be ready to support that killing.

    • Zaba

      that’s islam!

  • Davey

    A far more revealing question to ask them would have been “Do you think Britain should be a Muslim state governed under sharia law?”

  • Mr Grumpy

    Yes, they thought the question was about moderate groups like Al Qaeda. Nothing whatsoever to see.

  • MacGuffin

    From the article: ‘But sympathy lay with the young Brits, not the Isis jihadis — and there is a difference.”

    Ummmm, no, actually, there isn’t. I am always pleased to hear of the deaths of British jihadis and jihadettes.

    As for the reports of these monsters emailing home from Raqqa saying ‘I’ve made a mistake’, the only proper response must be: ‘Yes, you have. In thinking that anyone cares about you now’.

    • I love hearing muslims from the UK (NOT EVER so-called “British” muslims) being killed by airstrikes in Syria.

  • Patricia

    “Do you have sympathy with young Muslims who leave the UK to join fighters in Syria?”

    None at all. They are not on our side. They belong in an Islamic country with people who share their ideals and customs. I can’t think why the Government tries so hard to keep them here. We don’t need them and they don’t want us..

  • TrippingDwarves

    Another Friday, another fulsome expression of Peace. So it goes…

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-34946233

    • EVERY Friday now sees muslims kill and maim people. Enuff said.

      • Zaba

        Every day.
        27.300 + since 9-11 all listed here:

        thereligionofpeace.com

  • Chris

    With articles like this, no wonder this paper is losing lots of its readership to Breitbart. This used to be a right wing paper but is now looking more and more like The Guardian. It just pumps the same old pro Muslim drivel out on a daily basis thinking that its readers are so stupid they will just go ahead and accept it as the truth. Most of us us are a little bit brighter than this paper gives us credit for however and we are able to see right through your lies

    You can put all the fiddled polls you like in front of us but we know the truth. The Sun’s poll was accurate and it’s true to say that a large number of Muslims despise us and wish us dead.

    • Sue Smith

      One should expect to read articles and essays about which one disagrees in ALL news sites. Unfortunately, The Guardian is exclusively left wing and culture warriors at that.

      Don’t just be around those with whom you agree; that way you don’t get to formulate a counter-argument based on how people feel and why they believe the way they do.

      • Zaba

        essays about which one disagrees

        The problem is obfuscating islam into something it is not.

        • Sue Smith

          Then speak to the argument; tell us your thoughts about how and why it is ‘obfuscating Islam into something it is not’. It’s actually important.

          But don’t worry about trolls like Mary Ann because she won’t use logic. You can already see that she spouts ‘facts’ which having no basis in reality.

          This emperor has no clothes.

    • Mary Ann

      It’s people who stir up racial hatred who are the problem whether their creed or the colour of their skin, hatred breeds hatred and plays into the hands of Daesh.

      • Zaba

        racial hatred

        What race is islam?

    • Zaba

      I see these as opportunities to educate about islam.
      The biggest problem in the West, before islam, is lack of education about islam.

  • Well, a whole 0 percent of muslims in the UK approve of homosexuality … so whatever “excuse” you write Isobal … it’s utter bollocks.

  • William Matthews

    Islam is an ideology. An ancient personality cult of a murdering Psychopath, engineered in the 9th Century to control and expand the Arab Empire. All Muslims are on the scale. From the fun loving beer drinker to the nutter Jihadist. The same way all Germans were on the scale when Nazi’s took over Germany. We have to discredit the ideology, not pander to it. Not make excuses for it. Not try and convince people it is harmless. We have to utterly undermine it, deprogram the moderates and kill the nutters.

    • Zaba

      7th century

      We have to ban islam.

      • William Matthews

        I agree, but if you send it underground, it’s likely to get more dangerous if anything. It needs to be discredited. Made a laughing stock.

        • Zaba

          Indeed, the biggest problem we face in the West
          is lack of education about islam.

          We can, for exampIe, begin to advertise all of mohammad’s special attributes’.
          This alone is already causing muzlims to leave islam.

          • William Matthews

            Absolutely. After reading the Koran, i became quite zealous about my disliking of the religion. They can point at other religions sure, but they are not even in the same league as Islam when it comes to segregation, anger and hatred. It’s an utterly appalling text. Required reading if you ask me 🙂

          • Zaba

            yes, islam is an ideology with a thin veneer of religion.
            Just enough to fool most of the people……

          • Sue Smith

            Yep, it’s a bit like a large appealing cake with luscious chocolate icing on top – but the inside of the cake is made from excrement.

          • William Matthews

            If you’re a Muslim the Koran is made for you, it spends all its time telling you how great you are and how wrong everyone else is but if you are absolutely anyone else, and never likely to become a Muslim, what becomes immediately apparent is that Islam hates you, and will most likely try and kill you.

          • Sue Smith

            Sadly, that’s true. I instinctively feel that very many muslims choose to ignore those tracts in the Koran – like Catholics choose to ignore some of the papal encyclicals which emanate from Rome.

            A friend once said, “I’m a Catholic who managed to have a Vatican by-pass some years ago”.

          • Zaba

            ignore those tracts in the Koran

            Many do, enough don’t

  • edithgrove

    The image of these three girls, who look sweet enough, with hijab and union flag, signifies a support for sharia and for the united kingdom. I guess we should each make of that what we will, but at first glance it seems like bad news for gay people and women’s rights, although it’s more comfortable to think otherwise.

    • Sue Smith

      Absolutely correct. The first things to go will be progressive ideas about womens’ rights, gay marriage, freedom of religion and association etc. etc.

      But, this would all require THINKING. The Left can merely EMOTE.

    • Zaba

      Even before first glance, islam is NOT
      compatible with Democracy.

    • JohnJ

      Generally non muslims think these people are really nice. Mainly because they never actually ask any controversial question – marriage of daughter, Shia, killing apostates, gays… It is impolite. So nice people, who are always polite, never see any problems. Until they, or their relations, go to a concert, flight, train, restaurant, football match…. where there is an attack, they will always support the Muslims.

  • Sue Smith

    “Muslims think”? Oxymoron.

    • Zaba

      ‘muzlim scholar’

      • Sue Smith

        LOL. It’s the scholarship you have when you don’t actually have to learn anything. (A bit like our modern education systems, when you think about it.)

  • Sue Smith

    One thing you could say about National Socialism is that it wasn’t tied to Christianity or any other religion. Same with Communism. In fact, both were anti-religious.

    • Mary Ann

      Are you a supporter of Hitler?

      • Sue Smith

        No, I’m just suggesting the Koran is the only religious text linked to violence and extremism – that I know of.

        • Mary Ann

          You obviously haven’t read the bible.

          • Zaba

            You are muzlim or ignorant that we no longer
            live by the Bible.

            Far from teaching universal love, the Quran incessantly preaches the inferiority of non-Muslims, even comparing them to vile animals and gloating over Allah’s hatred of them and his dark plans for their eternal torture. Muslims are told that they are destined to dominate non-believers, against whom harsh treatment is encouraged.

            http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/pages/quran-hate.htm

          • Sue Smith

            Please identify international terrorism and widespread violence and human misery perpetrated as a result of anything in the Bible. Be careful now; we are talking about violence on a GLOBAL scale.

          • Zaba

            violence on a GLOBAL scale.

            If islam disappeared tomorrow, there would be 95% less armed conflicts on our tiny planet.
            http://www.raymondibrahim.com/islam/how-nazism-explains-moderate-and-radical-islam/

    • Zaba

      islam is political with the thinnest of veneers of religion

      • Sue Smith

        It’s fundamentalist, like any extreme left or right wing ideology. Simple as that.

        • Zaba

          Except, as Erdogan, and others have said:
          islam is islam.

          • Sue Smith

            AKA, ‘it is what it is”.

            Profundity 101.

          • Zaba

            “˜These descriptions are very ugly, it is offensive and an insult to our religion. There is no moderate or immoderate Islam. Islam is Islam and that’s it.” Erdogan

          • Sue Smith

            That’s right; it is what it is. Right out of Pinter or Beckett.

            Clutching onto Islam is like waiting for Godot.

          • Zaba

            I wish I had those literary references…..

          • Sue Smith

            You know, those guys REALLY knew how the world worked and what they were talking – or silent – about.

  • Sue Smith

    Modern Britain. Thanks, but no thanks.

    At least the ME is closer to Australia – that way I’d save money on airfares, IF I was so disposed.

  • Guilttripjunkie

    The writer of this article has her eyes closed, her fingers in hers ears her mouth shut. She is thinking see no, speak no, hear evil of the R of P. Like members of our political establishment, she thinks ignoring the rise of ultra conservative Islam in the UK will make it go away.

    • Zaba

      ultra conservative Islam…..moderate islam……

      “The term ‘moderate Islam’ is ugly and offensive.
      There is no moderate Islam.
      Islam is islam.
      Recep Erdogan, Turkish PM/Prez..

  • MrJones

    The political and media class will continue to blind themselves to reality but the inevitable consequence of what they have done is already obvious to anyone who has their eyes open.

    • Zaba

      And the rest of you……one hour is enough to grasp the problem.

      politicalislam.com

    • Sue Smith

      AKA, the vast majority.

  • Bonkim

    Not all who wear head coverings are Muslims. Same as all that shout lord Lord will not find the Kingdom of heaven.

    • Zaba

      Aside from head coverings, the problem is islam.

      • Sue Smith

        Does this mean I won’t be able to establish a Redken franchise there any time soon?

        • Zaba

          A lot of fashion goes on under those burkas……

    • Sue Smith

      That’s right; the nuns did that for many many decades. It’s the head to tail female ‘containment units’ that I have the problem with. And in the heat!!!!!

      • Bonkim

        Black absorbs heat – so a walking Sauna in the sun.

        • JohnJ

          yes it is interesting. My observation is that the complete covering is necessary when the air temp is above your blood temp. SO it protects you from the air and reflected heat. Also black means that the women keep out of the sun – it stay indoors. The burqa is very smart attire for this religion and the Saudi weather.

          • Sue Smith

            Very smart attire, but they have horrific Vitamin D deficiencies.

          • JohnJ

            Nice – do they. When I was there I was told about all the diseases they do have. In particular the weird generic diseases through inbreeding. A real case study in the medieval life.

          • Bonkim

            and air swirls around you as you walk which cools your body – medieval air conditioning – the Arabs were good at technology and innovating during the dark and Middle Ages. Pity did not keep up with that.

          • JohnJ

            Agreed with the swirl. Actually they were not good during the dark and Middle Ages. They were and are (e.g. Dubai) excellent managers, but not innovators. Innovation is called bid’ah in Arabic and forbidden (harram) . In those times, the Jews in Umayyad and the Persians in the Abbasid had the ideas. The Arabs know how to hire the right people and use these ideas for trade and pride. Like Dubai! From managing camels to managing expats.

          • Bonkim

            Mongols and Arabs/Persians ruled the then known world all through Europe’s dark and Middle Ages – Central Asian Khans and Caliphs were the super powers of the era – and as happens the might of the Empire was greater than the sum total of the individual components – same with the British Empire where all within contributed to make the total greater than Great Britail on its own – and in present day USA – the various strands of immigrants that make it a super power – the old Anglo-centred US is no more – died post WW2 when new immigrants brought new blood into the old decaying cow boy culture.

        • Sue Smith

          Sunbaking is not the traditional way I think of that containment unit. But, hey…

  • MrJones

    The Europhile political elite wanted mass immigration for cheap labour and for divide and rule and they managed to force it through against public opinion with threats and bullying and now it is all coming home to roost.

    • Mary Ann

      Muslim migrants tend to come from outside Europe, migration from the EU is predominately Christian, as are the peoples of Europe.

      • Zaba

        Have you seen the scene at Calais of late?
        That might change overnight!

      • Sue Smith

        Take your head out of your backside right away. You know it’s not good for your backside. What you see up there is not what is happening in the real world.

  • Mary Ann

    The question didn’t even say whether going to Syria was to fight for Daesh or against them. The Murdoch press is stirring up racial hatred and helping Daesh by sowing discord.

    • Snowmuncher

      The vast majority will be thinking of fighting for ISIS, Al Qaeda or the Assad regime – all of whom are equally barbaric, savage and evil.

      Plus there have been many other polls including a BBC poll for Radio 4 in March this year: 24% of British Muslims believe that violence is justified for the publication of the image of Mohammed. And 8% refused to answer or claimed they did not know. http://comres.co.uk/polls/bbc-… page 14.

      Then there was Guardian article: Muslims in Britain have zero tolerance of homosexuality, says poll: http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2009/may/07/muslims-britain-france-germany-homosexuality

      This is the reality – there are many examples. Stop deluding yourself.

    • Zaba

      Murdoch press is stirring up racial hatred

      What race is islam?

  • slyblade

    Polls are unreliable as it takes for granted the person answering is telling the truth. My opinion of Muslims has been founded on seven years working the Middle East. I was told the moment i first got of the plane in Jeddah ” never trust a Muslim” it was a piece of advise that stuck with me for seven years and proved well founded.

    • Zaba

      ” never trust a Muslim”

      I had a hard time accepting that one; good you got it early.

      What does the Religion of Peace Teach About…

      Lying (Taqiyya and Kitman)

      Muslim scholars teach that Muslims should generally be truthful to each other, unless the purpose of lying is to “smooth over differences.”

      There are two forms of lying to non-believers that are permitted under certain circumstances, taqiyya and kitman.

      These circumstances are typically those that advance the cause Islam – in some cases by gaining the trust of non-believers in order to draw out their vulnerability and defeat them.

      http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/quran/011-taqiyya.htm

  • njt55

    Misleading headline. I found out noting about what Muslims think. Rubbish.

    • Zaba

      I found out noting (sic) about what Muslims think.

      Try here:
      politicalislam.com

  • Zaba

    Do you have sympathy with young Muslims who leave the UK to join fighters in Syria?

    Why would one?

  • Mr. Bernard Wijeyasingha

    Other questions to ask are
    Do Muslims in the UK and other immigrants sympathize with more of them coming into the UK?
    Do Muslims in the UK believe that banning other faiths in Muslim lands is wrong?
    Do Muslims in the UK prefer Islam to become the dominant faith of the UK?
    Does ISIS sympathize with the Muslims in the UK?

    • Zaba

      And what exactly goes on in the building housing the kabaa?

      • Mr. Bernard Wijeyasingha

        Nothing. The Kabaa has a rock inside of it, and that rock does not sing Glory Hellelujah.

        • Zaba

          The Kabaa has a rock inside of it….

          Nope.
          Not a rock.

          • Mr. Bernard Wijeyasingha

            That is what I thought. Some kind of a meteorite of simple lingo a rock. if not whatever that thing inside the Kabaa knows how to awfully still and look awfully ugly

          • Zaba

            A meteorite, yes.
            A meteorite with a known history.

          • Mr. Bernard Wijeyasingha

            Being a Catholic it is just a rock to me. I would not know that rock of if you may “meteorite” from any other if they were lined up in front of me.

          • JohnJ

            Mecca, Medina and Al Quds ( Jerusalem). Jeddah is just an entry port. But if you know something about Jeddah, let me know.
            Also the Carnelian – why is it important to Muslims? Thanks
            I am sure you do know that they originally prayed towards Al Quds.

          • Mr. Bernard Wijeyasingha

            I deal with gems as one of the many things I do, including jewelry (period pieces) and the Carnelian stone is sacred to Islam for a few reasons. Google that. also it has been an important semi precious stone in other faiths.

          • JohnJ

            Thanks yep I did look up Anas bin Malik. I knew about the pinky finger as I saw that all the time, but not ‘aqiq.

          • Mr. Bernard Wijeyasingha

            Now you have me confused. I will Google “Anis bin Malik”. I believe it has something to do with the Carnelian rock I have.

          • Mr. Bernard Wijeyasingha

            I have gargantuan 20 pound Carnelian rock. Massive and deep burgundy red with veins going across it. At the bottom is a Crystalline formation. I know that Carnelian is considered sacred to Muslims.
            It had been tumbled so it is very smooth. If you shine a light under where the Crystalline part of it one can see some of that light penetrate the rock, giving out a reddish glow from within.

          • Zaba

            could be……
            the kabaa IS sacred.

          • Mr. Bernard Wijeyasingha

            Of course I know the Kabaa is sacred to Islam. it is the center of the faith and I believe (correct me if I am wrong) the reason why many Muslims turn to Mecca 5 times a day to pray. But then there also lies Islam’s weakness.

          • Zaba

            there also lies Islam’s weakness.

            What do you propose?

          • Mr. Bernard Wijeyasingha

            I do not propose anything.
            But of all the 5 major faiths the power of Islam is concentrated on Mecca, Medina and Jeddah.
            One of the basic tenets of Islam is to pray 5 times a day facing Mecca and the Kabaa.
            That is a lot of power focused on one single spot.
            Take that out and put in a Non Muslim edifice oh say a Memorial for Stalin or Mao. then build massage parlors, gambling joints and everything decadent of the non Muslim world.
            that would essentially cut the practice of
            the practice of facing Mecca to pray
            The haj
            and many other Islamic practices that focus on that spot.

          • Mr. Bernard Wijeyasingha

            Zaba
            I have a question. What would happen if Muslims colonized Mars? how will they know when to face earth in order to pray? for some of the time Mecca would be facing in a direction they cannot turn to it.
            If they simply turn to Earth as the place of the Kabaa, they are also turning to many other places they do not consider holy but are holy to other faiths or even to Communism.

          • Zaba

            I think you’re on something here……

          • Mr. Bernard Wijeyasingha

            It crossed my mind reading another article about space travel. If the Muslims on Mars practice the 5 times a day prayer facing the planet earth, than the Kabaa then Islam has radically changed.
            Those on earth continue the old practice
            those on Mars change the old practice
            the ones on earth will consider those on Mars as not so pure in their practices
            those on Mars will rewrite a new version that allows for this practice forcing that on those on earth
            if the Muslim population is greater on other planets then the majority of Muslims are not from Earth and have a new interpretation that will be imposed to some degree on the minority on Earth. A schism may form or (both those on Earth and those on other planets) will have to compromise.

          • Zaba

            Much simpler to ban islam.

          • Mr. Bernard Wijeyasingha

            I am sure when we start creating a federation of planets there will be all kinds of bans, the main one among them is the transfer of species from one planet to another such as local flora and fauna.

          • sidor

            If they regard a piece of stone sacred, they are pagans, despite their claims that Islam is a monotheistic religion. Not better than the Roman Catholics who pray on idols.

  • Patrick Roy

    Moronic article.

    • Sue Smith

      That isn’t an argument.

    • Zaba

      got facts?

      • Patrick Roy

        If I say something is moronic – it is.

  • Sue Smith

    Islam has not been through a ‘reformation’ like this!! In this excerpt a man is trying to defend his doctrinaire ideology against reason:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ECITwTYSIsg

    • Zaba

      Islam has not been through a ‘reformation’ like this!!

      islam cannot have one.
      mohammad said allah told him the koran was ‘perfect and unchangeable’.

      In the words of Arlo Guthrie’s new book: What To Do?

      • Sue Smith

        How terribly sad for them; how catastrophic for us.

    • sidor

      Islam isn’t a faith. It is just a cultural (linguistic) phenomenon. They produced their own version of the Bible in Arabic, and want to force the world to accept that language as the language of God. Idiotic, but that’s what it is. There is absolutely nothing new in Quran except the language, except the restriction of alcohol.

      The similarity with Reformation is that the latter stopped the equally idiotic obsession of the Roman Catholic Church which tried to force everyone to pray in Latin, the language that Jesus never spoke.

      • Zaba

        There is absolutely nothing new in Quran ….

        What’s not in the koran?

        Ethics and the Golden Rule.

        • sidor

          Ethics is just a matter of social agreement. It has as much to do with believing in God as the hairstyle.

          • Zaba

            270 Million dead humans over islam’s 14 century history might differ with you.

          • sidor

            If they had a different opinion they were idiots. It doesn’t matter anyway since they are dead.

          • Toy Pupanbai

            The vast majority of today’s Muslims have no knowledge of how this Ideology was forced on their forefathers at sword point:
            Why We Are Afraid, A 1400 Year Secret, by Dr Bill Warner. (Youtube.)

      • hedgemagnet

        As I read it, alcohol or strong liquor should generally be avoided as it screws your head up the next morning for doing business. There’s nothing wrong with that as a piece of advice, but it’s hardly something to turn into dogma.

      • vieuxceps2

        Your ideas Doris, are as mixed as your name. Your simplistic analysis of religion into a basic issue of language is an argument of reductio ad absurdum.

        • sidor

          If you are a Moslem or a Roman Catholic, I might have inadvertently upset your feelings, for which I apologise. Otherwise, I am pleased to note that you have no objection about the facts.

    • Zaba

      “The power of his brain to reason.”

      NOT permitted in islam.

      • vieuxceps2

        Hear hear. Eveyone should hear and hear again for it is the very soul of Islam and therein lies the danger to us.

  • Zaba

    …A rare piece from Reuters:

    Is political correctness over Islam and ‘refugees’ putting lives in danger?

    Unrelenting political correctness is a double-edged sword; protecting people from offense, but failing to allow hard truths through.

    ————————–

    The emotion of the migrant crisis has caught Europe unaware, and divided it between unrelenting fear and impractically open arms. The lack of rationality and perspective on the problem risks sinking the continent deeper into fear and danger.

    http://www.jpost.com/Middle-East/Is-political-correctness-over-Islam-and-refugees-putting-lives-in-danger-435591

  • Dogsnob

    What muslims want you to think they think.

  • JohnJ

    “A funny jumble of assumptions”, please stop treating all this as some children’s pet show. This is a pathetic article with yet another nice person telling us all to be nice. The Sun may not have done a good job on their stats – but that means zero as to the seriousness of the issue. There is no control group on opinions of immediate life and death. Of course the fifth column and fellow travelers will never say the truth. And how many are ‘sympathetic’ to the Islamic State we will never now until it is too late. That is the issue.

    • Sue Smith

      If muslims are all good, caring people this is all I have to say about it:

      names and addresses please.

    • vieuxceps2

      Yes, it’s long past the time when our own sense should have alerted us to the dangers of mass-change of population. even if every immigrant means us well, They may not have bad intentions, but how can it be otherwise? Just see the differences rmade by Europeans to the lands where they migrated,perhaps for the better perhaps not. Irreversible alteration to the home of the former inhabitants. Unless we can find some way to reverse the reality of our present position, we will have have committed national and cultural suicide.

    • Mary Ann

      The Sun published a seriously misleading survey, The Murdoch press have admitted it in the Times, but not in the Sun, one can only assume that they believe their Sun readers are so thick that they wouldn’t understand the ambiguity of the question so they don’t have to own up. It’s a shame that some of these Muslims could be thinking about those who go to Syria to fight against Daesh, but they of course are not newsworthy so we don’t hear about it.

      “The result was similar to levels of sympathy among non-Muslims”

      So we are going to fight one in five of all the population.

      http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/nov/26/mps-demand-meeting-with-sun-editor-over-british-muslim-survey-story

      Someone who actually did the survey

      http://www.vice.com/en_uk/read/i-conducted-the-muslim-poll-the-sun-jihadi-sympathy

      BTW I used to work in market research for IPOS, I believe that hating all Muslims is giving comfort to Daesh, that is what they want, that is why they keep killing people so publicly and the Sun are aiding the enemy with polls like this, and so many people are falling for it.

      • JohnJ

        I don’t see the problem with the Sun survey. 1 in 5 so? In my dealing with Muslims, I would put it higher after every bombing in Syria. It is just another pointless headline and response. It think it is far more important to look at one of your statements:
        “I believe that hating all Muslims is giving comfort to Daesh, that is what they want, that is why they keep killing people so publicly and the Sun are aiding the enemy with polls like this, and so many people are falling for it”
        How do you know that? Why do you say it? Do you have special correspondence with Islamic State? Where is the proof? And as an aside – which Muslims – because as you know the Islamic State does not recognize the Kharijites or Shia as Muslims.
        In my experiences of the Takfiris and Salafis they couldn’t care less about this or any other chatty bickering of the left justifying their victim status. If you read IS material – they couldn’t care less. It is yet another duplicitous obfuscation by the morally superior ‘concerned’ of a crystal clear situation, viz. IS=fundamental Sunni Islam. That is what the Islamic State say and there is nothing any Sunni Muslim can say against the quotes that Islamic State use to clearly and publicly justify their every single action.

  • WTF

    Sorry, what school of maths did Isabel Hardman go to ?

    If 5% of UK born Muslims back Jihadists and 15% have some sympathy for their cause, isn’t that 1 in 5 of Muslims have some sympathy. Whether they back the Jihadists 100% or just 50% that’s still sympathy for Jihadists.

    This is where the problem lies with understanding Muslims in the west as this survey shows that there is significant support/sympathy for those who become Jihadists and the mixed messages and apathy from the majority of Muslims towards our valid concerns of terrorism.

    • davidshort10

      She probably went to the school of met Andrew Neill at a party.

  • edithgrove

    “Shortly after the Charlie Hebdo attacks, the Today programme asked Muslim residents in High Wycombe whether they thought the magazine should have published its cartoons of the Prophet Mohammed.” I remember that segment on the Today programme, it was chilling. Quite horrifying actually, and sent out before the bodies were buried in Paris.

  • Sue Smith

    Anyone here under 50 won’t have seen this. If in need of assuaging that white, European, privileged, affluent and democratic ‘guilt’ please watch at least the first 10 minutes of this. Made in circa 1975 it has many things to say which are disturbingly descriptive of the fate of modern Europe:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-6irRrtObMM

    I need hardly make the point that Professor Clarke’s views are today considered not politically correct!!

    • JohnJ

      Thank you – A wonderful series. His narration is succinct, with plenty of spaces to allow the viewer to think. As he pointed out the barbarians have no concept of maintenance.
      An Islamic Europe will see the gradual weathering and decay of all infrastructure. I suppose all you really need to do is ride a horse and throw a spear.

      • Murti Bing

        Or drive a pick-up and fire an AK47 in the general direction of something you don’t like.

      • Sue Smith

        “Confidence in one’s society…a vigorous belief in discipline and law…a weight of energy behind them”. Society can have the benefits of the ‘agreeable results’ of a civilization but still be dead and rigid.

        It all sounds so horribly familiar, as does the current lack of confidence in European culture. The spectre of Islam – as the barbarians.

  • DennisHorne

    Man is facing possible oblivion. We need rational thinking and no religion of any sort. Most religions now are “soft” but Islam is contrary to all that is good about Western Civilisation.

  • Scradje

    One cannot help but feel warmth towards the wholesome-looking women in the photo. If only they were representative of the majority of their faith n the UK! Sadly that seems unlikely.

    • grammarschoolman

      They might be wholesome if they took their oppressors’ headscarves off.

      • Scradje

        Yes they should do just that.

    • JohnJ

      “the wholesome-looking women in the photo” – when you have the absolute truth, loving support of your friends and an enormous network including God – you would look happy too. The Rajneeshis, fundamental Christians, Moonies, Falun Gong and every hippie commune ( at the start) – all look like that.
      It is the glow of certainty.

      It combines with a look of pity – for you and me.

  • grammarschoolman

    Et tu, Isabel?

    • sidor

      If you like to use a foreign language to quote that classical statement, use the original one. He pronounced it in Greek. Didn’t they tell it to you in your grammar school?

      • grammarschoolman

        They taught me to quote Shakespeare appositely. That’s good enough for me.

        • sidor

          And they never told you that Caesar was a real historic figure? His last words, according to the Roman sources, were καὶ σὺ, τέκνον.

          • vieuxceps2

            When quoting Shakespeare one quote the words used by Shakespeare. otherwise,one is not quoting Shakespeare.
            Still, you have now shown us how clever you are, so that’s all righ then.

          • sidor

            If you quote Shakespeare as the original source of that Latin phrase, do you mean that nobody used it before him? Did he invent it?

          • vieuxceps2

            “As the original source “- Who said it was? No, we do not quote Shakespeare when we say “Prince of Denmark” any more than when we say “silver” or “ducats.” Or even night or twelfth or merry. And your point is? Ps:” Original source” is a tautology.Take care, your pedagogue’s wig is askew.

          • sidor

            “Original source” is not a tautology: it is a legal issue for which you can be tried and jailed. Avoid putting put a wrong reference.

          • Richard

            As a reader, I immediately related what he said to Shakespeare, and understood the entire reference. He refers to the play. Similarly, if somebody says, “Play it again, Sam” I know that is a reference to Casablanca, even if the phrase never actually appeared in the film. In other words, he is communicating precisely what he intends, and there are no gaps in the readers’ minds.

  • shibby dibby

    Any Muslim who does not sympathise with the Jihadists are Apostates. Read the Qur’an Isabel.

  • LindaRivera

    Is it impossible to tell the truth about Islam? My comment is now waiting to be approved meaning it won’t get published. I’m almost giving up in despair. Trying to state the truth about Islam is almost an impossible task. Our people are in terrible danger, but we’re not allowed to say that.

    • Snowmuncher

      Try copying it, and change any contentious words like r_ape etc.

      • LindaRivera

        Thank you.

    • Zaba

      The truth about islam:

      politicalislam.com

  • David Prentice

    They weren’t Buddist fanatics who beheaded Lee Rigby on the streets of London, Isabel, it wasn’t Sikh extremists who blew themselves to smithereens along with 52 of their fellow commuters on 7/7, nor were Hare Krishnas of Pakistani extraction sent down for sexually abusing white girls in Rotherham. The UK has a Muslim problem. Rod Liddle and Douglas Murray are the only ones with the cojenes to tell it like it is. You, Isabel, are part of the progressive elite – not your sister being treated like an animal, eh? – and you and your willful blindness are a significant part of the problem.

  • Sid Falco

    Non-muslim self-hating lefties may well sympathise with British jihadis but they’re not likely to blow themselves up to prove it.

    Other than that, I think we’ve have enough anguished journalists burnishing their “anti-racist” credentials until the next atrocity.

  • DaHitman

    “Do you have sympathy with young Muslims who leave the UK to join fighters in Syria?”

    I’d prefer their citizenship to be revoked, Muslims have nothing in common with us or the West in general, they follow a satanic cult but to slow to see it

    • Mary Ann

      What, even those who go there to fight AGAINST Daesh. Remember which side they were going to fight for wasn’t part of the question. IPOS refused to do the poll.

  • Malcolm Stevas

    “If you torture the data for long enough, you can show anything….. it certainly doesn’t mean that the average British Muslim harbours any sympathy for the Islamic State.”
    I wonder if Isabel Hardman imagines that every poll of or about Muslim sentiment, at least since 9/11, has had its data “tortured”: to the best of my knowledge, every such poll has indicated consistently that a disturbing proportion (anything up to a third or so) of European/UK Muslims either is equivocal about Islamist terror, or actively supports it. To imagine that all these polls commissioned by a variety of clients have been skewed deliberately is to engage in conspiracy theory. I thought Hardman was more sensible.

  • Snowmuncher

    Can suicide bombing be justified in attacks against civilians in defence of Islam?

    Palestine territories 40%
    Afghanistan 39%
    Egypt 29%

    But even so called “moderate” Turkey 15% – 11 million Turks have that view, which is good to know since they’re going to be given fast track entry into the EU by Merkel in order to save her face.

    Pew Research Center 2013 Q.89. It’s here:
    http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/the-worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-religion-and-politics/

  • Ken

    Perhaps the writer should visit Bradford or Luton ?

    • Richard

      Reality should never obtrude into Leftist ideology.

  • Innit Bruv

    An unusually perceptive article by Spectator standards.
    Ms. Hardman might want to share her conclusions with the likes of Rod Liddle and Douglas Murray.
    Predictable responses by the usual assortment of plebs and malcontents who read this publication.

    • Terry Field

      But her article made no hard points.

  • Jean de Valette

    I don’t care “what Muslims think” anymore. I used to care, but I don’t now.

    They’ve had their chance to speak up and they have failed – except for the bit where they blow us up.

    I care what Britons think, and are worried by – and a lot of that thinking and worrying centres around the fact that there are muslims within their midst.

    Britain has been ASTONISHINGLY tolerant.

    And that is good.

    But we need NOT be tolerate of fascism, and Islam IS fascism.

    Smash it.

    • Verk

      “I don’t care “what Muslims think” anymore. I used to care, but I don’t now.”
      Spot on. A sentiment shared by myself and many others I know. Just fed up with the hypocrisy, the whining, the way muslims and Islam suck the life blood out of the country, the community, the society, the culture. Not just with the guns and the terror but with the constant victim complex, the relentless demands, the incessant bleating and whinging.
      It is a vile, sordid parody of a religion and it has all but devoured everything joyous and beautiful in Western Europe. Indeed, it has won. Seeing as it cannot produce anything of any value, beauty, joy or splendor, the rancour non-muslims (except for those treacherous appeasers on the left) feel towards it and the fear that now governs so much of our public and intellectual life is Islam’s rancid and fetid victory over us. The damage it has caused to Britan, France, Holland, Germany and Belgium over the last twenty years is incalculable, to the point of irreversible. Too many dickheads in the West are all too eager to bow before the islamic sword and call it “multiculturalism”.

      • Jean de Valette

        Exactly right on every point and beautifully written.

  • johnb1945

    Forget even about British Muslims. The Kurds who are fighting ISIS, who have protected Christians and Yazidis, are almost entirely Sunni Muslims.

    This is complex.

    The problem is that anyone who reads the foundational Islamic canon and familiarises themselves with fatwas on a range of topics will know direct incitement to this kind of behaviour exists in them. There is a specific and literalist branch of Sunni Islam called Salafism which is the wellspring of Jihadism, and they quote Islamic scripture as their justification.

    It would be very helpful if authoritative Muslim scholars and clerics could scripturally declare why ISIS is not Islamic.

    So far Al Azhar university, the most prestigious seat of Sunni Scholarship, has declared ISIS to be evil but not heretical.

    Pronouncements like that give some legitimacy to ISIS.

    It would be great if we could isolate, for example, Salafism, as a strain within Islam and target it, but it is hard when no legitimate alternative vision of Islam is being offered by its most authoritative scholars.

  • evad666

    Typical of the MSM no one is bothered about what Brits think or need.

  • Muttley

    Small difference: unlike some muslims, errant Brits with crazy ideas tend to sit in their bedrooms playing computer games or b*tchng away on chat forums rather than bombing the tube or heading off to work as beheader general for ISIS. So it doesn’t really matter what the wider population think about the subject.

  • davidshort10

    I am sure I am in sympathy with everyone who has read this gibberish. We don’t know what the author is saying and presume she wrote it in a hurry. I don’t need a survey to learn that Muslims are generally in favour of Muslim wars or that Jewish people are against them or that the Labour leadership doesn’t like Jews very much. But how many people give a monkey’s about the opinion of a magazine owned by Scottish tax exiles?

  • davidshort10

    I don’t recall any survey that asked if Catholics were in favour of IRA attacks and if ever one was taken then the Spectator should let us know, otherwise this article should be retracted and the author fired.

    • Terry Field

      Non-sequitor.

  • Liveandletlive

    It’s about time that people learned the difference between fact and biased opinion. Without a doubt, questionnaires can be misleading. People might not understand the question or have a different interpretation of it. The fact that the survey showed very similar results when answered by non-Muslims shows either that 1 in 5 of our whole society are extremists, or alternatively that the questions were not well understood. Certainly, the Sun went one step further and placed their own interpretation on the answers given. I think we need draw a distinction between ISIS and Jihadis – for the two are not the same. I’m not muslim, but I am aware that there is a strict definition of Jihad in the Quran. There is a good article on the website justislam (.co.uk) which helps to explain this. Islamic State fighters are not Jihadis – they are simply a death cult who manipulate and twist scripture to suit their own grotesque cause. Jihad prevents the killing of innocents. The terrorist actions of Islamic State kills innocents (including other muslim innocents). Recently, Iraqi security forces uncovered 18 toy baby dolls with IEDs inside. Created by IS and destined to be scattered along the annual pilgrimage route for Shia Muslims, to attract the attention of little children. Yes, I am sure that there are a number of disgruntled members of our society (of all religions including of no religion) who disagree on government policy both at home and abroad. But do I think that as many as 1 in 5 people are thinking about joining the terrorists? Don’t be ridiculous! The article by the Sun is highly irresponsible and is purely designed to sensationalise and sell papers. It is also dangerous in that it actually plays into the hands of the terrorists by scaremongering. More non-muslim fear the muslims, and more muslims fear because they are being viewed as potential terrorists! And to all the people who talk about how many deaths that muslims have caused over the course of history, that goes for non-muslim faiths too. What about Hitler? What about the IRA? What about Milosevic? What about the Empire past of countries like our own? Given that we all have to share this world, I think you have to place yourself in one of two camps: one that wants to try to live peacefully with others – or one that does not!

    • E.I.Cronin

      Jihad has several interpretations in Islamic Scripture and demonstrably includes ‘Holy War’. Yes it can also be interpreted as a spiritual struggle but armed violence is explicitly scripturally mandated. The website Political Islam has in-depth textual analysis of the Trilogy (Quran, Hadith and Sira). From what I have read there are varying interpretations of what constitutes allowable violence – like all religions text are open to varying interpretations with contradictory verses from other sources providing different reading. IS is Literal Islam. Pure, devout Islam. Graeme Wood’s excellent article in The Atlantic ‘What does IS want?’ is worth a read. I suspect justislam is written and funded by apologists… and I say this to many good people who find the bare facts about Islam disturbing – do you really think a practicing Muslim is going to publicly admit ”Yes my religion promotes terrorism and hatred for non-Muslims?”. A painfully honest debate about Islam in the West is essential and urgent – ironic that admitting the terrible facts would be the first step towards workable solution. Pretending the roots of conflict do not lie within Islam guarantees conflict with continue.

      • Zaba

        A painfully honest debate about Islam in the West is essential and urgent ….
        followed by banning the ideology.

        • E.I.Cronin

          I’m with you on the inevitability of a religious, civil war. It’s not a question of if, but when. I just hope the useful idiots who have facilitated these disastrous social conditions live to see the results of their stupidity and malice.

          • Zaba

            The civil war is already happening all over Europe.
            The msm does not post much.

            Some news bloggers do post daily.
            weasel zippers
            bare naked islam
            gates of vienna
            the muslim issue
            blazing cat fur

      • Terry Field

        Therefore there is no such thing as an ‘islamist’. Only here a muslim, in different social conditions, who acts accordingly, as instructed by the Koran

        • E.I.Cronin

          That Graeme Wood article on IS in The Atlantic mentioned ‘Quietist Salafists’ which I had never heard of. I see religious belief on a scale of literalism. With Islam one end of the spectrum would be nominal Muslims with a minimum of religious behaviours who literalise a very small selection of verses and codes. As you proceed along the scale more verses and codes are included in religious life. At the other end would be Salafists who literalise almost the entire vast canon. Quietists are the dormant mode of that extreme and IS are it’s active component.

        • E.I.Cronin

          Sorry Terry, my previous post was off point. Yes you are right, Jihadis are authentic Muslims.

      • Liveandletlive

        You are right about interpretation, and this is the danger of all religions. Take the Bible. It is my understanding that Seventh Day Adventists will reject the idea of evolution because they literally believe that the world was created in 7 days. Other Christians will tell you that 7 days is not a literal seven days but rather more figurative speech. In fact there would not be so many different religious ideologies if the Bible was not the subject of numerous interpretations.

        Secondly, if you google the Telegraph article on the 10 worst bible verses, you will see that there are some pretty appalling verses there too. The Quran does not stand alone here. More moderate believers of either faith will tell you that passages are often quoted out of context and that the religious book must be considered as a whole to make proper sense of it.

        Thirdly, we are NOT going to convert Muslims to Christianity, or vice versa, or everyone to atheism. That is unrealistic. We need to work harder to find a way of respecting each other’s religious (or non religious) viewpoint in life (even if we don’t agree with it) whilst at the same time taking a hard line approach to acts of religious intolerance – be it to other religions, or gay people, or to any other characteristic that we as a British society accept that people have a right to be.

        So what would I suggest? Well my first target would be free schools that are set up by religious groups. We are, like it or not, a multicultural Britain and we should encourage understanding of the different groups that exist within our society. I firmly believe that children who are only educated with members of their own religion, and who only socialise with members of their own religion will be more fearful, less understanding and less tolerant as adults. So we should not be encouraging segregation in schools. Secondly, I’d regulate all places of worship – let’s face it, we regulate schools, care homes and hospitals on the grounds of public safety and to ensure that they are delivering an appropriate service. Regulation isn’t perfect but its start. In the same way as healthcare professionals now are obliged by law to report any safeguarding concerns, we could require religious leaders to be obliged to report anyone attending their place of worship who they think has extremist/radicalised views. We could make places of worship open to unannounced/ undercover inspections. We could ask them to keep a record of speakers/preachers so that in the event of a preacher of extremist views being identified, there would be an audit trail of the places of worship that they had spoken at. We could insist that all religious organisations be obliged to have a programme which involves events with other religious groups (could be a coffee morning, or something like that) – contentious I know, but it would help to break down the segregation that we allow to build up and exist in our country. Of course you wouldn’t regulate mosques unilaterally, you’d regulate all places of worship.

        Yes, these ideas would not be popular at first – but what is the alternative? Causing greater divisions in society and ending up with a possible civil war?

        • Zaba

          Ban islam.
          muzlims are free to choose a religion, or none.

        • Zaba

          we’ll end up with a civil war!

          What do you think is going on in Europe right now?

          • Liveandletlive

            Zaba, I agree that there are tensions in Europe right now, but we are not engaged in full scale civil war where muslim and non-muslim neighbours are fighting each other to the death! Surely we have to remember that muslims are just as much the victims of heinous terrorist acts as non-muslims. On that undisputed fact alone, we should be able to find common interfaith ground on which to build. This is not about muslims vs non-muslims, this is about people who want to live in peace and people who do not.

          • Zaba

            …. muslims are just as much the victims of heinous terrorist acts
            as non-muslims.

            Victimhood is the basis of the koran.

            Ye are the best of peoples, evolved for mankind, enjoining what is right, forbidding what is wrong, and believing in Allah. If only the People of the Book [Christians and Jews] had faith, it were best for them: among them are some who have faith, but most of them are perverted transgressors. (3:110)

          • Liveandletlive

            Ha ha, I just looked up your profile. You are a Zionist! That explains everything!

        • E.I.Cronin

          Some great ideas there, particularly on segregation in schools. A few brief points:
          1) Inspections, reports and monitoring are all great ideas – but they should only be applied to Islam. Christianity has formed our nations for 1,400 years. Christianity isn’t under the microscope – Islam is. Islam is the hostile, alien faith. We need to rethink our paranoia about discrimination. Sensible, discriminatory policies that target the specific beliefs causing conflict and violence should be targeted – not all religions. I have a feeling Hindu and Buddhist faiths would be quite relaxed and unconcerned about these measures as they know they’ve nothing in their beliefs and behaviours that merit security concern.

          2) Repeal Multicultural Policy. The bloated, self-serving bureaucracy that has encrusted around all levels of government need to have their budgets slashed. The parasitical nature of MC organisations sustains segregation.

          3) Rebuild national identity and de-stigmatise ethnic solidarity amongst indigenous Brits. Islam has gained such a strong presence here not only because of it’s invasive nature but because decades of pernicious Multiculturalism have leached the cultural confidence from the host culture. It’s always struck me how confident and utterly self-assured Muslims are in Western societies – our progressive leaders’ and their spokespeople have a default position of continual accommodation, self-abnegation and guilt. It’s a remarkable contrast. If we were confident in articulating our laws, traditions and protecting our cultural heritage I believe Islam would start to recede.

          4) Voluntary Repatriation programmes is another great idea I’ve heard floated.

          5) I can’t help wondering if we were to make it socially acceptable to encourage conversion to Christianity or Atheism and made it absolutely clear every member of society is legally protected from violence and harassment what the numbers would be?? Can’t help thinking rather high…

          None of these will ever be implemented unfortunately so I agree with Zaba – a religious, civil war is inevitable. It’s not a question of if, but when.

          • Liveandletlive

            Cronin, if we were to single out Islam for such treatment then thousands of peaceful, law abiding muslims would feel singled out and victimised. Now don’t get me wrong, I sometimes think that our political correctness can be very misjudged. For example, a while back, there was one council who were asking the general public who were using the swimming pool to wear bathing costumes that gave a fuller body coverage so as not to offend muslims using the pool. As my screen name suggests, I am in favour of the live and let live policy with freedom of views as far as one’s own life and own personal beliefs are concerned PROVIDED that this does not extend to trying to get another group to change their otherwise socially acceptable lifestyles and traditions to suit you – AND PROVIDED that it does not involve harboring ill-feeling or malice towards others who don’t share your view. Do I want to see muslims shunned from our country? No. We do not want Milosevic-like policies here!

          • E.I.Cronin

            That’s a noble and humane ideal, but unfortunately a large contingent of Muslims do want a parallel legal system and are prepared to enforce it on wider society. Civitas released a report a few years back advising up to 85 Sharia ‘Courts’ are operating which are highly discriminatory against women and non-Muslims. The pool example is horrifying and shows just how far down the path to complete self-destruction we are. Of course I hope we can avoid conflict but many Muslims have self-segregated and are intent on imposing their beliefs upon us, so I believe the painful truth now has to be put before a rapidly disappeating social cohesion. The balkanisation process is unstoppable now. Or so it seems to me at least. Anyway, thanks for the discussion mate.

          • Zaba

            Cronin, if we were to single out Islam for such treatment then thousands of peaceful, law abiding muslims would feel singled out and victimised.

            Victimhood is key to islam’ survival so far from the 7th century.

        • Zaba

          Too late.
          Civil war is raging in Europe.
          Have you noticed?

    • Terry Field

      The Koran describes jihad in stages, one of which is applied by ISIS. Another stage is curly lived by the British moslem community.
      The muslims in a majority should kill or convert; the minority behave with greater humility – or so I understand.
      Anyone wish to refute this?????????

      • Zaba

        the minority behave with greater humility –

        Called dhimmihood.

    • Zaba

      The article by the Sun is highly irresponsible and
      is purely designed to sensationalise and sell papers.

      Only for the ummah.

  • DaHitman

    They look as ‘British’ as a Banana

  • Terry Field

    The article does not refute the bare reality that a significant percentage of the muslims asked have clearly expressed support for groups and actions the British and other civilised peoples would unequivocally call terrorist, violent, insurgent, and characterised as being filled with with murderous religious zeal, anti-Jew, Anti-Christian or similar. That uncomfortable position is not refuted in the article. The nuanced writing attempt to mislead by the use of illy false comparators designed to dupe the gullible – just as New Labour tried to do- and with some considerable success – for over a dozen murderous years.
    Only in politically correct and thus neutered Britain could such stupid articles gain any traction.

    • Liveandletlive

      Terry, in a similar survey significant numbers of non-muslims also gave similar answers. How can we explain that? Poor understanding or different interpretation of the question? After all, there are a number of different “fighters” in Syria – the dreadful “Islamic State” is just one group. How do you know whether some of these people answered to mean that they would wish to join the fight against Assad (but not with IS), or would fight against IS? We can’t rule out either that a proportion of people may have given an insincere answer, just for the sake of seeking attention! I really think the Sun’s headline does a lot of damage.

      • Zaba

        I really think the Sun’s headline does a lot of damage.

        i.e. islam’s secrets begin to be exposed.

        • Liveandletlive

          Zaba, I don’t know whether you have muslim neighbours or work colleagues but this is certainly not my experience of the muslims I’ve had contact with. This terrorist group is hijacking Islam and we are aiding and abetting it by giving them the honour of calling them by the name of “Islamic State”. Why are we doing this? Whoever wishes to refer to these murderous psychopaths by referring to I.S. should know that it should stand for “Imitating Satanophany” or “Imitating Satanophany in Syria” or Imitating Satanophany in (the) Levant!

          • Zaba

            This terrorist group is hijacking Islam …….

            Are you muzlim protecting the ummah?
            These are muzlims modeling mohammad,
            but only according to the islamic trilogy……

          • Liveandletlive

            Zaba – you declare that you are a Zionist. I suspect you hate all muslims. Shame. If both sides showed a little less hate and a little more tolerance then Israel would not be in the situation it is now! I’m not muslim, but I do know muslims and I won’t stand to see everyone tarred by the same brush.

  • Sue Smith
  • rtj1211

    In order to do this survey properly you must control for religion i.e. you must sample an equal number of Muslims and non-Muslims.

    That way, you will find out whether or not the Muslim Community in the UK shows any meaningful difference to the non-Muslim community.

    You could break it down more if you liked: survey immigrants from EU; Hindu; Sikh; African non-Muslim; White non-EU Caucasians; East Asians (be they Chinese, Japanese, Filipino, Papuan etc); and the Americas (all non-Muslim); as well as indigenous white Caucasians and those of different ethnicity but born here.

    Of course, that would be more time consuming and a bit more expensive, but on a matter such as this, it really would be a good thing to get rigorous data before drawing conclusions……

  • Jah Prole

    Simply had to log in after reading this article in the magazine.
    The question “Do you have sympathy with young Muslims who leave the UK to join fighters in Syria?” is not vague or misleading or subject to multiple interpretation. That a small but significant number of non-Muslims would also side with ISIS against the interests of this country simply reflects the number of people who hold hard-left, pro-terrorist, anti-Western views.
    I expect better from The Spectator.

    • Liveandletlive

      But Jah, are they saying that they have sympathy for the young muslims because they have been victims of brainwashing by this death cult, or are they saying they would side with ISIS? I DO think this is ambiguous.

      • Jah Prole

        I don’t accept your premise: you cannot be brainwashed at a distance by a death cult or by anyone else. And, regardless of the circumstances that led to a young Muslim leaving the UK to join a terrorist group engaged in Syria, whether brainwashed, hypnotised, blackmailed, bullied, honey-trapped, seeking excitement, seeking heavenly reward, wanting to redraw Sykes-Picot…

        Do you sympathise with young people who leave the UK to join fighters in Syria?

        • Liveandletlive

          I think social media is very powerful Jah. And I think that some people are very vulnerable and gullible and may start to watch IS videos and believe their poisonous propaganda when they say that this is all about advancing the cause of Islam and fighting a holy war in the name of Allah. They may be guided by people that initially approach them as “friends” who begin by gain their trust and listen to them. I suspect that much of this “grooming” involves chipping away at a vulnerable person’s ideas little by little, to encourage a gradual shift by which the victim then believes that the cause is somehow more wholesome. You must know that vulnerable people can be groomed – even by complete strangers into doing truly bizarre things that defy all logic as far as you and I are concerned. And where religion is concerned this can be even more powerful. Isn’t it the Moonies who believe that Reverend Moon will choose their lifelong partner and then pay vast sums of money to marry a complete stranger (often from a completely different country) on the basis of that? How exactly are people brainwashed into that moneymaking claptrap?

          Make no mistake – I HATE IS and its ideology with a passion, but I think that we do have those in our society who are very vulnerable to being groomed as described. I suspect that many of those who go find that the reality does not meet with what they expected – but by then it is too late to return and they are faced with a choice to obey or to die! This is why we have to be more vigilant in our communities – why religious communities in particular should be hypervigilant to protect those who may be easily led.

          So from that standpoint I have sympathy for the weak and vulnerable mind. I certainly DON’T have sympathy for terrorist acts.

          • Andy M

            The thing is, to even begin to subscribe to ISIS propaganda, you have to have at least sympathy for their position, which means you have to hold values that are incompatible with our Western society. There is no excuse for anyone sympathising with these terrorists, or those who have joined them.

          • Liveandletlive

            Sadly Andy, the propagada videos that IS put out are not generally about its murderous campaign. It is very difficult to win peoples sympathy if you show them the true nature of your campaign of terror. So how are they able to deceive some people? Just google the website “business insider” to see how they do it. On that site there is an example. There is an IS propaganda video showing IS in Mosul. They show an amusement park with people relaxing and kids having fun on the rides and picturesque open spaces. To all intents and purposes, those shots look like they could have been taken somewhere in the West! They interview people, including young children who announce that they are much happier in Mosul now that IS is in charge and contrast that with what it was like before. Everything looks rosy and peaceful and orderly. They paint a picture of Utopia. They convince people that this is their purpose – for every muslim to live a free and happy life. They downplay the violence to achieve this end or spread propaganda videos that the people they are fighting are very bad people who want to kill Muslims (e.g that they are fighting Assad for the freedom of the Syrian people). It is all complete BS, but I’m sure that they have psychologists and the like advising them on the art of deception. And some ignorant and vulnerable people swallow it.

          • Zaba

            It is very difficult to win peoples sympathy if you show them the true nature of your campaign of terror.

            No need; all spelled out, multiple times, in the koran.

            The Quran tells Muslims that Allah uses them to violently punish others:

            Fight them, Allah will punish them by your hands and bring them to disgrace… (9:14)

          • Andy M

            They can put out a few Disneyland style videos, but that isn’t going to change the fact that they also put out videos celebrating terrorist attacks, claiming responsibility for them, beheading people, etc. Potential recruits aren’t only going to see the Disneyland stuff, they’re going to see all of it – and then make a decision to join ISIS. Unless someone is mentally ill, there just isn’t an excuse. Anyone who consciously sees all this and thinks it’s a good idea to join ISIS is as guilty as they are.

          • Liveandletlive

            Precisely Andy – you hit the nail on the head! For level headed, mentally well people and of a particular IQ like us – that is fine. But you presume that everyone is just that! They are not!

          • Andy M

            I would say mentally ill people are a ‘special’ category – as they are doing whatever it is they are doing because they aren’t receiving appropriate medical and psychological treatment for their mental illness. My question then, though, would be how many people joining ISIS are mentally ill vs those who are simply terrorist sympathisers, or wannabe terrorists? I struggle to imagine that this is all down to mental illness, I think there are a lot of people who are already wanting an excuse to do something violent and hateful and there is a perfect storm between Islam’s religious texts’ teachings, ISIS and that desire to harm that leads for them to take to this path.

          • Zaba

            “It is the nature of Islam to dominate, not to be dominated, to impose its law on all nations and to extend its power to the entire planet.”

            – Hassan al-Banna (Founder, Muslim Brotherhood)

      • Zaba

        “If They [Muslims] Had Gotten Rid of the Punishment for Apostasy,
        Islam Would Not Exist Today”

        Yusuf al-Qaradawi, head of the Muslim Brotherhood and
        one of the most respected leaders of the Sunni world

        http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/3572/islam-apostasy-death

  • MC73

    A badly worded question. Who cares? The BBC survey question which asked if British Muslims sympathised with the Charlie Hebdo murders was pretty clear. 27% sympathised with people who kill because their backward religious sensibilities are offended.

  • Bonce

    Do you have sympathy with young Muslims who leave the UK to join fighters in Syria? It’s a hard question to answer:

    Its not at all a hard question to answer Isabel. Unless of course you are a hard leftist, loony leftist prat working for the BBC or Guardian and then it must be extremely hard. I know you get top up hours from the BBC, but really?
    Perhaps Isabel you should see whether the BBC wants to give a few more hours, because you are certainly not a conservative and certainly not at all a decent human being.

  • Samir Halabi

    Funny how many Muslims denounce the ‘HOLOCAUST’ of two thirds of European Jews as one of the biggest lies of the 20th Century. They poke fun and insult in the most heinous fashion all other religions including Judaism & Christianity. However if anyone say’s anything defamatory against Islam they start disgusting demonstrations against all non-Muslims, threatening death to all who make fun at Islam whether in cartoons or anything else.
    The majority of hatred and attacks and even murder against Jews today are in the whole carried out by Muslims. Don’t even think of blaming Israel for these attacks, Jewish citizens of other countries do not dictate Israeli policy. Muslims just use Israel as an excuse to attack Jews, however when they are attacked themselves,they don’t like it. people who live in glass houses shouldn’t throw stones. I’m sick to death with being informed that ‘ISLAM’ is a is a religion of peace which is forever being rammed down people’s mouths. When they learn to respect other people’s religion and stop inflicting their religion on their adopted countries, allow Churches and other religions to practise and conduct their respective religions in total freedom in Saudi-Arabia, Kuwait, etc.
    Stop threatening and murdering Christians in Pakistan, only then I may change my attitude towards Islam. However I imagine things to get far worse before they will improve.

    • Zaba

      First the Saturday people, then the Sunday people……

      • Samir Halabi

        So Zaba, Is that what you think and wish for!!! First the Saturday People then the Sunday People. You have been brainwashed. Judaism is 5,766 years old, Christianity is 2016 years old. Islam is 1437 years old. Maybe you should wait another 4,329 years for Islam to catch up with Judaism. Until that time you should keep your stupid thoughts to yourself.

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