Features

Let’s leave the EU and join Germany

16 April 2016

9:00 AM

16 April 2016

9:00 AM

An argument you sometimes hear from those sitting on the Brence (the Brexit fence) is that it’s a pity the EU couldn’t have stayed the same as it was when we first joined it in 1973. Back then, say the Brence-sitters, it was a trading bloc with only nine members, which made sense. Greece wasn’t a member, nor were Spain and Portugal, never mind Lithuania, Latvia and all those other countries ending in vowels.

But if we could go back to that better arrangement — play fantasy politics, as it were — would we, with hindsight, want it to include France and Italy, two of the original nine? Their economies are both now looking pretty rackety.

In fact, isn’t there only one country in Europe with which we would want to be BFF (Best Friends Forever)? You know the one I’m talking about. The Big G. Not only are we temperamentally similar to our German friends, we also have more in common with them than we do with our neighbours the French, or even our cousins the Americans (who, with Trump on the rampage, are looking increasingly foreign).

We have the same Protestant work ethic as the Germans. We enjoy the same things, such as brass bands, rambling and driving German cars. We both consider the sausage the height of culinary sophistication. We prefer beer to wine. And guess which country has taken over from Germany as having the worst reputation for reserving sun loungers with towels? That’s right, us, according to a survey for Travel Supermarket. Imitation? Flattery?

We both love rules, prudence, and ironic, self-deprecating humour of the kind personified by Henning Wehn, the darling of Radio 4 comedy, who wears a stopwatch to time his routines. (A typical German joke goes: ‘How many Germans does it take to change a lightbulb? One.’)


Even our traditional folk dances look similar, the Morris and the schuhplattler. And our taste in music is compatible — they gave us the Beatles, or rather gave them back to us once they had polished them up in Hamburg, and one of the most popular bands in Germany is Depeche Mode, who sound French but are British.

Not only do we import more goods from Germany than any other country, but they gave us our town planning, our Christmas rituals and even our welfare system (it was Bismarck’s idea originally). In return we gave them some of our words, such as schadenfreude, angst and zeitgeist. And to my astonishment, on my most recent visit to Berlin — I can’t get enough of the place — I watched a cricket match played in the grounds of the Olympic stadium, between two German sides wearing whites.

Above all, we are Anglo-Saxons. The Germanic tribes were here way before the Normans. And geneticists from UCL have analysed tooth enamel and bones in Anglo-Saxon cemeteries and concluded that half of us have German forebears. Half. No wonder 400,000 Germans live here. They feel at home.

Even our royal family has traditionally been German, dating back to George I, who couldn’t speak English. And with the exception of George VI, every monarch since has taken a German consort. And if you are thinking: but isn’t the Duke of Edinburgh known as ‘Phil the Greek’? Well, yes he is, but Phil Schleswig-Holstein–Sonderburg-Glücksburg would be a more accurate nickname. And let us not forget that the Royal family retained the surname von Sachsen-Coburg-Gotha until 1917, when it was changed to Vindsor.

All these ties apart, the reason we would be better off ditching the rest of Europe and forming an alliance with Germany is that it is an economic powerhouse, the fourth strongest economy in the world. And as we are the fifth, that would make a union between our countries a full-on superpower.

Obviously this idea might need a little finessing. Germany will probably need a good lawyer to get it out of the eurozone, for example. But you take my point. And did you know Britain and Germany already share an embassy? It’s in Reykjavik and the commemorative plaque in the building, dated 1996, records that it is ‘the first purpose–built co-located British-German chancery building in Europe’.

Even the Scots might be on board with this idea, given that the Westminster leader of the SNP, Angus Robertson, is half German and speaks the language fluently. He could be our go-between.

The question is, what should this new union be called? We can’t have anything with the words ‘Anglo-German’ in it because of the Anglo-German Fellowship of the 1930s. That was mostly made up of British and German aristocrats and came at a time when Hitler — who loved Shakespeare so much he tried to claim the bard was ‘Germanic’ — had a big crush on the British empire, as well as on Unity Mitford.

And now I’ve gone and mentioned the war, and I was trying not to. But since I have, I will leave you with these two poignant stories about mutual respect between enemies. In 1940 a Spitfire pilot, Michael Lister Robinson, threw a packet of cigarettes at a Messer-schmitt pilot he had just forced to land, and got a grateful wave in return. Another ME 109 pilot, Hauptmann Hahn, while in a duel with a Spitfire, realised he and his enemy had run out of ammunition at the same moment. As the RAF pilot spread his hands philosophically, Hahn did the same and both then flew away laughing.

You might disagree with half of it, but you’ll enjoy reading all of it. Try your first 10 weeks for just $10


Show comments
  • Fraser Bailey

    Having spent a lot of time in Germany, and also lived there, I have said many times that I would prefer to be ruled by Berlin than London or, needless to say, Brussels. But those comments preceded Merkel’s decision to abandon nuclear energy and to abandon her people to Islam. The one major country in Europe that was properly run is now on the same road to chaos as France, the UK, Italy and Spain. It’s a great shame.

    • AtMyDeskToday

      I share your love of, and experience of, Germany and it’s a mystery as to how Merkel, who could in the past be rightfully regarded as perhaps the most competent politician in Europe, has lapsed into being a complete idiot.

      • Fraser Bailey

        But was Merkel ever really competent? I suspect that by saying little (I never really know what her beliefs were) she gave the impression of competence without really possessing it. And the more one learns about her background, the more one suspects that she has little or no understanding of business or what it means to live in a free society. Hence the abandoning of nuclear and the embrace of Islam.

        As I said, it’s a great shame and I don’t think the Germans quite understand what is happening. This is understandable. From Adenauer in 1948 until very recently they were very well governed. Thus the German people tend to assume that the politicians are probably doing the right thing.

        Those of us who have grown up in the UK assume that they are probably doing the wrong thing and adjust our lives and expectations accordingly. For instance, everybody except Gordon Brown (whose idiocy is off the scale) knew that the PFI financed ‘skoolz n’ ospitals’ would start falling down within a few years, so none of us surprised by recent events in Edinburgh.

        In short, the Germans will have to adjust to a new reality.

        • Hamburger

          I agree with your first point. Frau Merkel’s aura of competence was based on two things: an ability to do backroom deals and an ability to sit problems out.

        • right1_left1

          I have seen many comments on this site blaming PFI on Labour who undoubtedly did expand its use in order to make the accounts look healthier than they really were but in fact PFI was introduced under John Major.

          Possibly the problem was that our skilled public sector negotiators (public school to the core) were out maneuvered
          This seems to have happened fairly frequently.
          See defence contract over runs.as an example !

          • post_x_it

            “who undoubtedly did expand its use”
            This is the point though. It’s true that the idea was born under a Tory government, but the concept of PFI isn’t inherently evil and in fact works very well for certain types of public projects, e.g. toll roads. Things that are, by nature, simple, stable and long-term.
            The mortal sin committed by “New” Labour was to expand the use to PFI into areas such as hospitals and schools where it makes no sense at all, purely as a way of hiding massive public expenditure off the government’s balance sheet.

    • David Drane

      indeed; this article like so many like it is from a momentary perusal on the present, making the facts fit the argument from the past. Ir the passion for Germany, however would equally find justification for becoming a state of US, or staying in the EU; they are just opinions. Some days I would rather be in USA, however, they do not have the silaist ideals of NHS, welfare etc we share in EU

    • johnb1945

      I would take this country over Germany on many counts.

      The lack of rules, an environment which encourages innovation, a generally adaptive outlook.

      These are things I noticed to be lacking during my many years living in Germany.

    • Lady Magdalene

      Agreed. I have had many German friends over the past 40 years or so. As a people, they are polite, law-abiding but (unfortunately) far too respectful of their political class. They remind me of Brits in the 1950s early 60s before we lost our deference.

      • Hamburger

        Mrs Merkel is managing to change that.

    • Duncan Richardson

      The one country in Europe that was properly run, and still is, is Switzerland

      • Father Todd Unctious

        Luxembourg and Norway do okay too.

        • Hamburger

          Luxembourg? I hope you were making a joke.

          • Father Todd Unctious

            The 570,000 citizens of Luxembourg enjoy per capita income of £70,000 pa each.
            Their tax haven status has endured uninterrupted by the EU.

          • Hamburger

            It is, however, anything but properly run.

  • rtj1211

    You’re well aware of course that the N’Drangheti is now utterly ensconced in Germany, creaming £1bn+ from illicit contracts and kick-backs??

    With London as a premier money-laundering centre for Mafia dirty money, however, I guess that wouldn’t bother you too much??

  • Mary Ann

    http://www.investopedia.com/articles/investing/022415/worlds-top-10-economies.asp

    Before Farndale makes his comments about France and Italy perhaps he should have looked at this.

    • Ingmar Blessing

      And now do the same without Germany securing French bonds, or funding the French agriculture sector.

  • Frank

    A very minor point of difference is that Germany instigated two world wars. Secondly that famous German sense of humour was not much in evidence in its “Arbeit macht frei” camps, or in the european villages and towns razed to the ground to punish the local inhabitants. As for the equally famous German sense of ethics, that seems to have vanished from its banks, automotive industries and most recently from its police reports.
    France and Italy may be rubbish at all sorts of things, but they have given Britain wonderful things including thousands of better things to eat than wurst and pigs knuckle.

    • Rumin8

      As a Brit, I did not get on well with most German food, which surprised me, as I do at least like Wurst. Curiously, the best Sauerkraut I ever had was in Dallas. In Germany I stuck to American food, Chinese food, etc. Watching someone eat Eis Schwein was not my favourite pastime. But then we Brits have some weird stuff of our own (that I also instinctively avoid).

      • Father Todd Unctious

        37% of Americans are descended from Germans, so why is it a surprise?

        • deepeekay

          Not sure about this

          http://names.mongabay.com/data/1000.html
          first German name in list is Snyder at number 144 i’m not a mathemittichien but even my reckoning would rule out 37%

          • Father Todd Unctious

            That is odd. Given the Hasselhoffs, Schwarzkopfs, Schwimmers, Schultz’s, Kleins, Schwarzeneggers, Bach’s, Oppenheimer’s, Weisses, Pfeiffer’s, Liebovitzs, Baums, Adlers, Steins, Afflecks, Bergmans, Costners, Hoffmanns, Keitels, Thurmans,Weinbergers and so on.
            Germans and Austrians account for over 50 million of the 320 million Yanks. Irish 30 million and English 25 million.

          • deepeekay

            “..The following table includes the number Germans living in
            the United States. “Germans” are defined as people who marked their ethnic origin as “German” on the Census survey in 1990 and/or 2000….”
            The Americans who wish to mark themselves as “German” or “Irish” on the national census paper outnumber the Americans of English ancestry who wish to mark themselves as “English” on the national census paper. I would reckon that most Americans are of English/Welsh origin but neither know or care.

          • Father Todd Unctious

            Barely 9% of Americans are descended from English or Welsh people. About 11 million are Scots.

          • deepeekay

            Better contact the US Census Bureau and let them know that most of their respondents are lying about their names. All those Smiths, Johnsons, Williams’s Browns , Jones’s, Millers etc etc etc.
            http://names.mongabay.com/data/1000.html

          • Jonathan Burns

            Likewise a lot of the so called Irish, are really Ulster Scots.

          • post_x_it

            Looking at your list… interesting mélange.
            Schwarzenegger is not an American of German descent. He’s an Austrian, born and raised in Austria.
            Affleck is Scottish. Leibowitz is Polish.
            Most of the other names you mention could potentially be German, but are more likely to be Yiddish names from somewhere further east.

          • Father Todd Unctious

            Austrians are ethnically German. All of the names quoted are German surnames.

          • post_x_it

            My point about Schwarzenegger is that he is not an American, and therefore irrelevant to your analysis as to where Americans get their names from.
            I’m not denying that all of the other names (except Affleck which is most definitely Scottish) can be found in Germany, but their origins are not necessarily Germanic. The border between Poland and Germany/Prussia has been fluid over the centuries, and Polish names are common in Germany. That doesn’t make Leibowitz German.

          • Father Todd Unctious

            My post says German and Austrian ancestry….which is what Ben Affleck has!

      • right1_left1

        I regularly buy Bratwurst.
        Very tasty and no fat emerges during grilling.
        Yes I buy them from Lidl’s.

    • Rumin8

      I don’t rate French food so highly. I wish they would learn to cook their steaks so they are not dripping blood. Americans take after that tendency too, and I have always had to ask for steaks to be well-nuked and carbonised. I find stuff that is too raw gives me the guts ache.

    • Father Todd Unctious

      The English have very little in common with Germans. We have long historic links with France,Belgium and laterly Poland, but not Germany.

      • upinthehills

        Are you of your head we’ve had nothing but a long history of conflict with the French and the only time we didn’t they were a waste of time, think it’s time for your medication,

        • Father Todd Unctious

          Much of France was part of England until the 15th century. Calais until 1558. Yes we conflicted with them from around 1700 until 1815, but since have only ever foughtvwars alongside them. Crimea and WWs1 and 2.
          Our language is largely middle French, our aristocracy are French, our middle ages were French. Germany is Eastern and alien. A Lutheran culture with no humour and a streak of puritanism and lack of privacy that we find too strange.

          • Hamburger

            I think you will find hat you have had more German Kings than French ones. The Normans were not French by the way.

          • Tamerlane

            Our language is not largely French, there is a fairly even distribution, but the words we use most often are Germanic in origin. Again, information v knowledge.

          • Father Todd Unctious

            No. Our language is West Germanic, Anglo-frisian, but much of it is Norman French too.

          • Tamerlane

            So our language is not Germanic? What an idiot. Certainly not largely French I’m afraid. The words me most use are Germanic in origin. Information v knowledge.

          • EUSSR 4 All!

            The basic vocabulary and the basic grammar are mostly West Germanic and Old Norse, but the rest are not. The great vowel swift was probably influenced by a Celtic substrate.

          • Father Todd Unctious

            What an idiot you are.

          • Tamerlane

            Which of those words aren’t Germanic?

          • Pip

            Normans were Norsemen from Denmark and Norway and they were genetically the same as the Anglo Saxons etc.

          • Father Todd Unctious

            Anglo-Saxons not hail from Norway . The Norsemen who settled in Normandy married into the local French populace and had been there for over 200 years by 1066. They had adopted French as their language , hence the law French bequeathed to us.

          • Pip

            Saxons and Scandinavians share a common lineage, both are Germanic Nordics and the Normans were far more closely related to the Saxons and Vikings than the French.

          • Father Todd Unctious

            The recent genetic studies of Sir Walter Bodner and Prof Donnelly show 45% of English DNA is French in origin and 25% is German. With strong input from Belgium and Spain.
            The Saxons had an impact, being the 25% German , but the Romans ,Vikings and Normans left little trace of their DNA as ruling elites that failed to intermarry. Only Orkney and Shetland had significant Scandinavian DNA.
            Most was French but from before the Saxons came. That is Gaulish from Roman and pre Roman times.
            Cornwall and Devon were distinct racially from the English and as different from each other as north and south Britain.
            The British have more in common with France and Spain than with Germany or Scandinavia.

          • Tamerlane

            Wonderful stuff except several glaring problems:

            ‘The French’ from whom you claim we originally descend aren’t French, they’re Celtic peoples from the area known today as France (Gaulish etc is not French).
            The French from that area today are Franks with nothing in common with us whatsoever or those Celts.
            The Normans who later conquered us were Vikings anyhow and not French.
            And perhaps most significant in terms of mentality… the bullet you’ve been trying to dodge and the real reason why you plough this pointless furrow – the Germans/Scandis etc are Protestant…just like us.

          • Father Todd Unctious

            I don’t claim anything. I repeat the research of Prof Donnelly which shows we are mainly descended from French and Spanish people. That research shows there is no such thing as Celtic peoples. That was a convenient Victorian construct to embellish invented traditions. The British come largely from modern France, Spain and Belgium.

          • Tamerlane

            Well…see now you’ve gone and pulled your usual baby trick of changing your post. What you originally wrote was ‘The British have more in common with the French, Spanish and Belgians than with Germans or Scandinavians.’ Which is plainly balls. That we are descended from peoples that once lived in the area known today as France or Spain is nothing earth shattering as this has been widely known for decades, but we’re not French or Spanish, not even close.

          • itsthepatriarchy

            Dano-Norweigian actually, at its root.

    • Cal

      English is a West Germanic language.

      • Frank

        Well if you took out all the words with French, or latin roots, you would be pushed to order your happy meal.

        • Cal

          kāsi, braudă or in old English: ċēse, bread

    • M P Jones

      I rather think we have more in common with the Danes than with the Germans. Anyway, apart from free trade, why would we be in any union at all? I certainly do not want to be in any political union with any other country or countries at all, particularly not a neo-fascist one like the EU.

  • Fraser Bailey

    Funnily enough Kraftwerk’s ‘Trans-Europe Express’ has been my preferred listening of the last couple of days and it’s playing right now. A marvellous record from a marvellous time and place. Have you noticed that Dortmund’s new coach looks very much like a member of Kraftwerk?

  • johnb1945

    Hmmm yehhh, as someone who has lived in Germany for a long time and who is half German, we’re not a whole lot like them.

    We don’t like rules, we’re individualist, they are conformist (one reason why Nazism thrived there, but not here). They like the mittelstand, we like polar extremes. They instinctively trust government and authority, we instinctively hate it. And so on. As for the “Protestant Work ethic”, Germany is half Catholic, and its most prosperous region – Bavaria, is majority Catholic.

    And the point, I guess, about the EU is that having all those countries like Greece and Portugal (not to mention the East Bloc) in it is a bulwark against their historic tendency to mob rule, coups and authoritarianism. Thanks to the EU they’re liberal democracies with whom we can do business, rather than juntocracies which we sideline.

    • Fraser Bailey

      You make some good points. But it is not the average British person who likes are polar extremes, it is the people in power. And yes, the Brits are more individualistic, but I’m sure we would be more inclined to follow the rules if they were rational.

    • Simon Jones

      I used to live in Germany and it was certainly the case that they would do as they were told by uniformed officials etc. I found the conformity quite stifling. Having returned to the UK now I think it has become far worse than Germany ever was with minor jobsworths everywhere bossing you about and more rules and regulations then even the most ardent German conformist could dream up.

      I see we are no No3 in the nanny state (read bullying, intrusive state) whereas Germany is at the bottom of the list. I have heard it called the new land of the free because they get more freedoms as ours are curtailed. Certainly when visiting now it is like going to a free country compared to the UK.

      • johnb1945

        Interesting. Would you link me to the ranking please? Ta.

      • johnb1945

        OK, so it only measures regulation relating to what we eat, drink and smoke.

        Yes, Germany is freer there.

        Where we beat them hands down, and pretty much any other EU state, is on stuff such as ease of doing business or creating a start up.

        Germany famously has a huge Mittelstand, and they do have regulation designed to make disruption of it difficult. We’d consider this protectionist. To the Germans the nature of their economy means there is a rationale to this.

        • Simon Jones

          There is more to life than starting a business. Take a look at what the over-regulation has done to life in general here, no decent comedy any more because most things are censored out of existence, music and creativity a pale shadow of what it once was, rules, regulations and fines for everything, the state spying on everything you do etc etc etc. The UK is not a pleasant place to live any more.

        • Cal

          You might be right about creating a start-up … I don’t know. But ease of doing business … for my company it is mostly easier in Germany than in the UK. There is one noticeable difference and that is employment rules – workers have better protection and conditions there.

      • post_x_it

        In Germany, a jaywalker is regarded on a par with a child murderer. Even when there isn’t a car in sight for a mile each way. Ze ampel ist rot. Yu stop.

      • Leon Wolfeson

        And yet Germany’s production is so much higher than ours. Hmm!

        Tip – it’s because the sort of controlling regs we have here, versus worker rights in Germany…

    • right1_left1

      Without checking anything I thought German prosperity was centered on the Ruhr
      ie middle and Northern Germany.

      • Hamburger

        Not any more, The Ruhr has turned into a rust belt. The main modern industry is in Bavaria and Baden-Württemberg.

      • johnb1945

        Bavaria is traditionally the wealthiest. Germany is a federal country, Bavaria used to be an independent state within the Holy Roman Empire and Bavarian wealth drives a consistent separatist movement. “Why should we fund everyone else” kind of thing. sound familiar?

        • right1_left1

          re sounding familar
          Yes the Punjab in India.

          It’s the same the whole over. hehehehehe

      • Cal

        München and Bavaria in general. Also much of the exciting software industry is in Berlin.

  • johnb1945

    Why are you complaining about the EU if you like Germany, then?

    Seems bizarre, isn’t this the reason to dislike the EU? That it’s a vehicle to assert German dominion through economic means rather than military?

    • Hamburger

      We are terrified of dominating Europe, which is why it is such a dreadful mess.

      • johnb1945

        Deutsch?

        Europe is not a mess, the term I would use is “at a crossroads”.

        This is caused by the fact that everyone in it has a different vision of where it should go.

        On the one hand you have the non-Eurozone countries who largely do not want federalism, with Britain on the extreme, and then you have the Franco-German axis who do but who are so different in their outlooks that it’s difficulty to see them wedded, and a whole load of others chipping in.

        Fundamentally, at heart, Europe is about using trade as a bulwark against Europe’s tendency to war and authoritarianism.

        It is in everyone’s interests if all countries can join, so long as they are liberal democracies and adhere to certain economic parameters.

        So Europe should remodel itself as something more flexible – a superstate for those who want it, but something else for those who do not.

        • Hamburger

          `This is caused by the fact that everyone in it has a different vision of where it should go.` I am not sure about you, but I would regard that as a mess!
          Hardly anyone wants federalism apart from the French. They see it as their way of dominating the EU permanently. We in Germany pay lip service to the Idea but do our best to avoid it as it will cost us an enormous amount of money. The Franco-German axis is a relic of happier times. Our problem is that we do not know what to replace it with or if we did, how to do it without upsetting the French. We also have the Euro which works well for us at the moment but not for any one else.
          There is a growing belief here that Europe needs to be more flexible and the British impulse is very important. I am not sure how far these views have reached the upper echelons of our political structure though.

          • johnb1945

            I think it will reach the upper echelons of the German polity.

            Otherwise they risk the re-emergence of the German hard right under the banner of Euro Scepticism (and anti-immigration).

            We already see signs of it.

            Nobody wants that, least of all the German elites.

            Germany is a democracy, and I have known for years that the average German is far closer to the average Englishman regards his opinion of the EU than people imagine.

            The will of the people will out.

            To my mind this means a more flexible EU with less centralised overreach. It’s up to the politicians to work out how this works, but that’s what it will be. I am convinced, and I think the UK should stay because the UK can be a big influence on this remodelling.

          • Hamburger

            Agreed!

  • 100

    Dinner for one.

    Junkers :The same procedure as last year, Miss Merkel?
    Merkel : The same procedure as every year, Junkers

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dinner_for_One

  • Lindsay Jenkins

    Of course Herr Hitler took the same view as you – we are fellow Teutons. That didn’t work out well, did it.

  • Lady Magdalene

    There are plenty of other European we would have liked to be “best friends” with, apart from Germany
    There’s the Dutch for a start; the Danes; Sweden (before it turned Muslim); Norway.

    What we actually need is a new Hanseatic League.

    Of course, the Celtic areas of the UK (not the Scottish Picts) have more in common with the Latin countries, as they are populated mainly by the Atlanto-Mediterranean type …. so they might not be too keen.

    • 100

      No thanks, no more leagues, no more unions, treaties or pacts

      BREXIT only
      Then single unilateral trade only deals with individual countries of our choosing.

    • Jambo25

      A-historical drivel. For the bulk of Scottish history trading and other ties with northern Europe, the Low Countries, Germany, Scandinavia, the Baltic states and Russia were of vital importance to Scotland.

      • upinthehills

        You were a complete irrelevance that most Europeans back then wouldn’t have even heard of the only friends you had were the French and that was just to piss if the English,

        • Jambo25

          Do you actually have anything of substance to put on here or is it merely hatred of the Scots? You are just another chauvinist English berk.

          • Tamerlane

            And he’s English right? Ouch, quelle insult. Nothing worse than being called English.

      • Tamerlane

        Did you check this one with the Ruskies, Scandis etc… think you’ll find their perspective a little different.

    • Father Todd Unctious

      The majority of Britons have Spanish DNA. Celtic parts of Britain are a 19th century myth.

      • Zalacain

        To be more specific, Basque DNA.

    • Cal Cryton

      SO you basically want a union of Germanic Europeans. How noble and high minded, grouping Europeans by ethnicity. I believe certain early 20th century leaders tried to do the same thing, that didnt turn out so well.

  • Amusing. But they’d have to get rid of Mad Merkel and rescind her insane decree that Germany will house the entire third world first. On the current trajectory, all those similarities you cite will be gone in a few decades and the country will be renamed “Mohammedislamarapestan”

    • Hamburger

      The dear old Macedonians are helping us there.

  • zanzamander

    Harking at the past that has absolutely no relevance to the present. Majority of the history and ancient ties to which you refer no longer apply.

    Britain and Germany of old have disappeared, blown away to dust by the winds of multi-culturalism. We are no longer “Vindsors”, we’re all ibn Sheikh Sauds. We are now all followers of Mohammad. Our so called Protestant work ethics have already been displaced by ethics that emanates from the desert plains of Jeddah and madrasas of Rawalpindi.

    We’re now part of a much more powerful economic, cultural, religious and military bloc, the ummat al-Islamiyah.

  • Cal Cryton

    “Protestant work ethic”…eh, you might want to consider the following…

    The most prosperous part of the German speaking world is Bavaria, a Catholic state.
    The most prosperous part of the English speaking British Isles is the Republic of Ireland, a Catholic state.

    LOL

    • #toryscum

      ”The most prosperous part of the English speaking British Isles is the Republic of Ireland”
      What do you define as ‘prosperous’? If we’re talking pure cash generation, surely it’s the City of London?

      • Cal Cryton

        The city of London is not a country or nation, last time i checked. If we compare GDP or GNP per person between England, Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland, the Republic comes out on top. Also has the highest average wages.

        • #toryscum

          You didn’t specify country or nation, merely ‘part’.
          Can you back this up with some figures?

          • Cal Cryton

            Look it up on Wikipedia, i’m not your secretary. Catholic Republic of Ireland is more than 50% wealthier than Protestant Northern Ireland.

          • #toryscum

            Haha, reference your own argument you lazy shytbag

        • HJ777

          GDP per person is poor comparator of prosperity of a small country in which many international companies are nominally domiciled, like the Irish Republic. Many economists have pointed out that the GDP figures make Ireland look much richer than it really is.

          Do Google’s Irish employees really each create £17m of wealth every year?

      • antoncheckout

        Quite so.
        I must remind my Irish relatives how prosperous they are. We all enjoy a laugh.

      • HJ777

        He’s wrong anyway, as he’s relying on GDP figures, which are, as is widely known, distorted in the case of Ireland because of the large number of international companies based there due to low corporate taxes.

        Apparently, every one of Google’s Irish employees contributes £17m towards their GDP…

        In reality, they are poorer and are paid less than people in the UK as the OECD figures clearly show.

        • Cal Cryton

          Wages don’t lie my friend. Average wage in ROI is about €38k, compared to £23k in the UK. You’re forgetting that the city of London is not representative of the UK.

          • HJ777

            I am not your friend.

            All you have shown is that you can invent figures and make unsubstantiated assertions. I have referenced the OECD web site.

            And you will be able to point out where I suggested that the City of London is representative of the rest of the UK, won’t you?

    • benny black

      Dont think the republic is in the british isles….

      • #toryscum

        It is, i checked. Not part of Britain, NI isn’t either. but the island of Ireland is in British Isles.

      • Father Todd Unctious

        Oh Ireland is in the British Isles. But so are Jersey, Guernsey, Man. All richer than Ireland.

        • benny black

          you will have a hard time finding anyone in ireland who agrees with that statement..

      • 100

        It is geographically

        • benny black

          no,its the irish isles with britain attached..

        • benny black

          No,its the british and irish isles geographically.

    • Ingmar Blessing

      Until 1945, Bavaria was the most backward region of Germany with agriculture, beer and castles. Then they were lucky that it was next to Thuringia, Bohemia and especially Selesia and Saxony, when the iron curtain went down. Those were besides Baden in the south-west the main boom regions of the Reich until communism took over. And all of them were mainly protestant. The only predominantly catholic boom region was the Rhineland (until social democrats ran it down).

      Most of the manufacturers in the eastern regions (e.g. Audi) ran away, went to Bavaria and brought their experts and their expertise. I bet that today still the majority of Bavarian families running tech business are protestants.

      • Cal Cryton

        You make a good point about the contribution of East Germans, but you surely cannot attribute 100% of the success of Bavaria, a state of 12.5 million people, to some of those businesses that fled? Let’s remember Bavaria also received a couple of million poor refugees from the east, which was a massive burden.

        • Ingmar Blessing

          Well, Bavaria did have a brilliant post-war Prime Minister who helped a lot to get the state what it needed. But the drain from the East was quite enormous. For example the Saxonian Triangle with Chemnitz, Dresden, Leipzig and Zwickau was fully industiralized. Including major petro-chemical corporations, machine engineering, top notch universities and lots of cultural stuff. That region lost a lot to say the least.

          Back then, almost the entire leading staff in the private sector ran away within a few years and the installations got moved to the Sowjet Union as reparations. I can’t find a source, but I believe the number of relocated corporations to Bavaria was around 2.000, which – assuming 100 employees per corporation – had the equivalent of 5% of the Bavarian workforce.

          Several of Bavarias contemporary big-shots came from the East: Audi, Siemens and Schaeffler have a combined 200.000 employees alone.

          While corporations went to the closest place, the refugees on the other hand were distributed all over the country. And since they didn’t need Wifi, halal food, Sharia courts and a comfort zone like todays refugees, but just a place to work (which was plenty, the country had to be rebuilt), they weren’t too much of a burden anyway.

          • Cal Cryton

            Even if what you say is true, old industries you mention like steel, chemicals etc are more of a burden in the modern world. The precise reason Bavaria and the Republic of Ireland have done so well in the technology area is because they were not as burdened by these vast old industries, hence the workforce was adequately trained and prepared for the new industries of the future.

          • Ingmar Blessing

            Surely true when it come to steel. Three objections to that:
            1. Between now and ww2 was enough time, in which the steel industry was quite profitable. If they were smart, they would have invested into different branches in time. I agree on that. But what do you expect from social democrats?
            2. It wasn’t the steel industry that went to Bavaria. The three examples I gave were all engineering. That’s always a good business when you make your homework.
            3. Petro-chemistry is still highly profitable sector. It’s about 5% of Germanys economy and quite a nice place to work. Their only problem is the stupid left-green-progressives who want to abolish reliable energy production.

            But, overall, it’s common knowledge that the Bavarians were lucky. They admd that themselves occasionally. That’s why they don’t mind paying their share of the internal state redistribution system in difference to the state left of them, Baden-Württemberg, where they – or we, I am one of them – never received anything, but just did our jobs protestantly;-)

          • Cal Cryton

            Pharmaceuticals, software and biotech are the industries of the future. Everything else will go to China, like you say the environmentalists will kill off any industry that produces pollution. Germany as a whole is quite poor in those three industries, but Bavaria probably comes out best among the German states.

          • Ingmar Blessing

            Where do you have that information from?

            The pharma industry is in top shape, in the Software branch there is no Silicon Valley, but the big industry corporations need good software, which impart comes from within or from externals like SAP.

            And concerning the Biotech sector – well, right now I’m sitting on a bench in a small park in the middle of the Heidelberg Technologie Park. The 3 buildings around me are full of biotech start-ups and behind them is another ring of buildings filled with the same. It may not be Berkeley, Cambridge or MIT, but it could be worse.

            We undoubtfully have a lot of problems in various sectors and regions (the ones run by social democrats), but these three sectors actually could be far worse off.

            Oh, the number one state is Baden-Württemberg, even if Bavaria looks like it is on top on first glance.

          • Sue Smith

            I’ve tried to understand some of your German postings on that other site. Aber, Ich spreche nur ein bisschen Deutsch.

            Please explain your feelings about the muslim immigrants into your country from a German perspective.

          • Hamburger

            But they do complain all the time.

      • antoncheckout

        Interesting point. And there were already many protestant areas in Lower Bavaria.

        • Sue Smith

          Soon to be changed!!

      • Hamburger

        I will take you up on your bet.
        The German Refugees from Eastern Europe did not all congregate in Bavaria and basically spilt on family of confessional lines. The Protestants went north and the Catholics south.

    • Father Todd Unctious

      The most prosperous part of the British Isles is London and SE England. Ireland carries £200 billion of debts. One eighth that of the UK but with one fourteenth of our population.

      • Cal Cryton

        Neither London or SE England are countries or nations or states. I compare England, Wales, Scotland, NI and ROI.

        • Father Todd Unctious

          Then you are not comparing like with like. N Ireland is a province of the UK, Wales a mere principality, like Liechtenstein.
          As for Ireland it is a small parochial backwater of 4 million or so souls. Whereas England is a modern sophisticated nation of near 55 million with global responsibilities beyond merely pimping itself as a tax haven.

          • Cal Cryton

            I’ve been to Northern England, you won’t get away with calling yourself sophisticated 😉

            Facts are facts. The Catholic part of the British Isles is now the richest part with highest average wages.

          • Father Todd Unctious

            But there are more Catholics in the UK than in Ireland. I’ve been to the west of Ireland. It is worse than Father Ted.

          • Cal Cryton

            But they are in a minority. 90% of the ROI population is Catholic.

          • Father Todd Unctious

            Actually 84%. It would be a lot lower but for the 450,000 Poles and Lithuanians there.

          • Cal Cryton

            Poles aren’t Catholic now?

          • Father Todd Unctious

            Why are Poles not Catholic now? The recent Pope was from Krakow.

          • Sue Smith

            Poland has a strong Catholic culture and heritage, though I suspect that they are mostly a secular country now – like the rest of the western world!

          • Father Todd Unctious

            40% of Poles say they attend Church regularly. 56% believe in God.

          • Sue Smith

            But that would be an ecumenical matter.

          • upinthehills

            Oh yes and where are the Irish versions of Cheshire or North Yorkshire or the Ribboe Valley in Lancashire or South manchester I could go on suffice to say the most run down estate in the North East is probably more sophisticated than 99% of Ireland,

          • Cal Cryton

            Haha…you’ve not been to Ireland much then. There are streets in south Dublin where the average home costs €20million, more in line with Kensington than the places you mention.

          • HJ777

            “Facts are facts. The Catholic part of the British Isles is now the richest part with highest average wages.”

            Yes, facts are facts and you should not invent your own.

            http://www.oecdbetterlifeindex.org/topics/income/

            “In Ireland, the average household net-adjusted disposable income per capita is USD 23 917 a year, lower than the OECD average of USD 25 908.

            In Ireland, the average household net financial wealth per capita is estimated at USD 31 580, lower than the OECD average of USD 67 139.”

            In the United Kingdom, the average household net-adjusted disposable income per capita is USD 27 029 a year, higher than the OECD average of USD 25 908.
            In the United Kingdom, the average household net financial wealth per capita is estimated at USD 60 778, lower than the OECD average of USD 67 139.”

    • HJ777

      The Republic of Ireland is considerably less prosperous than the UK.

      Don’t be fooled by the seemingly high GDP per head figures of the Republic. These are distorted by the fact that it has a small population with many international companies with HQs there taking advantage of low Corporation Tax. I believe that the turnover of Google in Ireland is about £17m per employee.

      When you look at average pay, unemployment levels, debt levels, etc. we are considerably better off.

      • Cal Cryton

        Average pay is higher in ROI, at €38k, compared to £23k in the UK.

        Even if you look at GNP per capita, which strips out distortive effect of mulitnationals, Ireland is ahead of the UK.

        • HJ777

          Both your assertions are false and unevidenced.

          GDP per capita does not stripe out the distortive effect of multinationals. It is simply the (distorted, in Ireland’s case) GDP figure divided by the number of people

          I posted a link to the OECD web site proving you wrong.

    • El_Sid

      Jorg Spenkuch has looked at this in a lot more detail, and overall he found that areas that went Protestant after the Peace of Augsburg earn about 1% more (when all other factors have been stripped out) compared to the Catholic areas. When he drilled down, the Protestants weren’t earning more per hour, but they worked longer hours, were more likely to be self-employed, and women were more likely to be working.

      See https://mpra.ub.uni-muenchen.de/29739/1/MPRA_paper_29739.pdf

  • Tamerlane

    Anglo-Germanoscandi-American-Anzac trading pact. The rest can go hang.

    • Father Todd Unctious

      You would cut the Dutch and Austrians adrift as well as the rich tax dodgers of Luxembourg.

      • Sue Smith

        I know from experience that the Austrians (pop: 8 million) punch way above their weight. A great country, about to be ruined by about 100,000 interlopers!!

  • zanzamander

    Btw, did you really needed to mention Trump in that demeaning manner. Actually Obama (no doubt your mentor) has done more than most to muddy our “special” friendship. Trump, who has British ancestry (unlike Obama (your hero) who is Kenyan), has invested here and gets along with most British (apart from people like you) quite amicably.

    You guys just can’t help yourself.

    • benny black

      Doesnt obama have irish relatives?

      • KingEric

        Every US president seems to be able to magic up some Irish relations. Sure Trump could “find” some long lost branch of the family originating from the emerald isle if he needed to.

    • Rumin8

      Not getting on too well with the folks near his Scottish golf course.

      Even the Republicans want to avoid voting for President Drumpf.

    • putin

      Also Trump’s paternal Grandfather was a German immigrant, his mother British which would have tied in nicely. Something along the lines of “and the next POTUS and leader of the free world is going to be of German/British extraction”. There.

      • zanzamander

        Nice one.

    • Trailblazer10

      “Btw, did you really needed to mention Trump in that demeaning manner.”

      It is a requirement among the bien pensant

  • Ingmar Blessing

    I have a counter suggestion: We dissolve our (lemon market) federal structure, transform the states back into kingdoms, dukedoms etc. and call your Queen our Kaiserin. After all, she is Kaiser Wilhelms niece and as they say, the Reich was much more vibrant and prosperous than what we have now. And it also had a lot more pomp and honour. I miss that in politics.

    • Heidelberg

      Make the Queen the Queen of the entire North Sea Union.

  • Was watching Germans playing cricket like watching girls playing football?

    • and Rugby?

      • Father Todd Unctious

        Rugby is like watching Germans play girls at cricket.

  • Rumin8

    Suppose there had never been an EU but instead a Northern European Alliance.

    It would consist of the Scandinavian countries, and Denmark, Netherlands, Germany, and Britain. Now that would be a powerful law-abiding bunch with a strong work ethic.

    Unfortunately there was a war that got in the way. Some of the countries stayed neutral. One was on the wrong side. And so after that war it was impossible to pull it together.

    • AWoLsco

      “Suppose there had never been an EU”

      Well there has been something like one before….the Holy Roman Empire and look what happened to that. Far from ensuring peace and harmony,it gave rise to Europe’s bloodiest ever war…the Thirty Years’ war….. in which Scots played a key role, securing the protestant domination of Northern Europe. Putting it simply, the south, Rome, was having all the fun and the money, and the north was paying for it and got fed-up doing so. Yes, I know the official line is that it was all about religion, but in fact that is just a simple cover story. It was really about freedom of thought and expression and , of course money….or ‘resources’ if you prefer.

      Interestingly, this notion of an allied Northern Europe is not new.
      It was first proposed by none other than the cruelly and falsely reviled Vidkun Quisling, as a means of preventing WW2 and presenting a united and more formidable front to the iniquities of ‘communism’ promoted by the gangster-state called the USSR.

      Quisling had been sent to the Ukraine and witnessed the ‘Holodomor(deliberate mass starvation) that took place there…and did his best to warn all Europe of what communism REALLY meant…..deliberate, purposeful destruction of the intelligentsia and middle class……That’s me, BTW…and it maybe you too. Take it from me, communism and its milder handmaiden socialism(really gangsterism/ terrorism, given a fancy name) can seriously damage your health.

      Paradoxically, instead of being respected as a European hero and left to retire on a comfortable pension, Vidkun Quisling was taken out into a freezing courtyard and gunned down like a dog….while the real traitors to Norway, King Haakon and his masonic retinue, deserted the people,fled the enemy like cowardly curs, lived it up in the Ritz in London for the entire war, and returned to Norway and lived happily ever
      after.

      • Rumin8

        I do indeed worry that the ambitions of politicians in the EU led to a greedy expansion that inevitably upset Russia. In other words, the organisation intended to end all wars is a possible cause of another. But not to worry, the politicians will make sure they and their fortunes will be safe. So that’s all good, then?

        • AWoLsco

          @Rumin 8
          I did reply to your post, advocating freedom of conscience for the individual, as a solution to reducing wars….but the Spectator didn’t like that, so they censored my post.
          They seem to prefer war-war to jaw-jaw.

    • Athelstane

      A situation with two rival trading blocs, however, would almost inevitably lead to two rival political blocs. Which would have split NATO apart long before now.

      In any event, A Franco-German partnership was a necessary foundation for any postwar political order. The French would have settled for nothing less after the war, barring large annexations of German territory. The Coal and Steel Community was the first step along that road.

      Now, the rest of the Mediterranean countries are another story…

    • Zalacain

      Yet Spain, Italy and France are all more industrial than the UK.

  • Marc Fabian Hafner

    I read dozens of articles about the British-German friendship. Most were lame, but this one here is by far the best. Some truth in every line while never taking itself too serious, and it gave me some nice laughs. Kudos!

  • antoncheckout

    These days, there is little understanding or sympathy in Germany with the British anger at the EU’s lack of democracy. Germans invest their democracy in their politicians, and leave it all trustingly to them. That their parliament has a massive democratic deficit by stitching up a long-term coalition between the two major opposing parties, leaving a weak, tiny opposition, appears not to concern them at all. That is worrying. Maintaining their ‘Wohlstand’ – their personal and collective national standard of living – is their overriding aim. And being ‘tolerant’ – the limits of that are being currently tested to breaking point.

  • antoncheckout

    The Germans dislike aspects of the EU but are not eurosceptic. They view the EU as part of their postwar constitutional settlement, and few of them question its pieties or advantages for Germany’s mercantilist trade-surplus economy. Only a handful of Germans can forsee the looming catastrophe of the eurozone. Obvious to us – but not to them.

    The large number of measures on which Germany has been outvoted in the European Council over the past 30 years are almost entirely *not* the same as the large number of proposals on which Britain has been outvoted.

    Also, Germany is dominated by a media oligopoly of anodyne, risk-averse state-backed broadcasters and warily respectful newspapers – except for Bild and (on a good day) Der Spiegel. (The recent Boehmermann controversy was a wild exception for the usually staid ministry-parroting ZDF.)

    Every German household is now forced to pay the licence fee – even if they have no radio or tv.

    A woman has just been sent to prison for six months for refusing to do so, as a matter of principle, and if she continues to refuse will be imprisoned again and again until she complies. Online commentators in Germany are either puzzled or indignant at her action – not at the state action or concealed tax.

    The FAZ’s interviewer quizzed Gisela Stuart on Brexit yesterday: ‘But the European Council is a democratic body, isn’t it?’ She replied ‘Well it may be your idea of democracy, but it is not mine! I may have been born in Germany, but I am a British politician and my concern is what is in the interests of Britain!’

    Germany’s coy refusal to admit that it is acting purely and entirely in its own national interest is a toxic and potentially lethal menace for the rest of Europe.

    • AWoLsco

      “Suppose there had never been an EU”

      Well, there has been something like one before….the Holy Roman Empire, and look what happened to that. Far from ensuring peace and harmony,it gave rise to
      Europe’s bloodiest ever war…the Thirty Years’ war….. in which Scots
      played a key role, securing the protestant domination of Northern
      Europe. Putting it simply the south, Rome was having all the fun and the
      money, and the north was paying for it and got fed-up doing so. Yes, I
      know the official line is that it was all about religion, but in fact
      that is just a simple cover story and facile label. It was really about freedom of
      thought and expression and , of course money….or ‘resources’ if you
      prefer.

      Interestingly, this notion of an allied Northern Europe is not new.

      It was first proposed by none other than the cruelly and falsely
      reviled Vidkun Quisling, as a means of preventing WW2 and presenting a
      united and more formidable front to the iniquities of ‘communism’
      promoted by the gangster-state called the USSR.

      Quisling had been sent to the Ukraine and witnessed the ‘Holodomor(deliberate
      mass starvation) that took place there…and did his best to warn all
      Europe of what communism REALLY meant…..deliberate, purposeful
      destruction of the intelligentsia and middle class……That’s me,
      BTW…and it maybe you too. Take it from me, communism and its milder
      handmaiden socialism(really gangsterism/ terrorism, given a fancy name)
      can seriously damage your health.

      Paradoxically, instead of being respected as a European hero and left to retire on a
      comfortable pension, Vidkun Quisling was taken out into a freezing
      courtyard and gunned down like a dog….while the real traitors to
      Norway, King Haakon and his masonic retinue, deserted the people,fled
      the enemy like cowardly curs, lived it up in the Ritz in London for the
      entire war, and returned to Norway and lived happily ever-after.

      • Athelstane

        The Holy Roman Empire wasn’t a bad job – while it was actually an empire. But after the Reformation – really even before it – it was an empire in name only. You can’t blame the Thirty Years War on it.

        More relevant cases to look at would be the Austro-Hungarian Empire and the Hanseatic League. They both worked out pretty well for those involved while they had their day in the sun. Especially when you look at what came after.

        • AWoLsco

          “it was an empire in name only.”

          Yes.A ricketty one. However, instead of quietly fading away into obscurity, it tried to assert itself….and that’s when the trouble started.

          “and the Hanseatic League.”

          Bring back the Hanseatic League. An independent Scotland did well out of that.

          • Father Todd Unctious

            England did even better. Hull, Ipswich, Kings Lynn, Bristol, Newcastle, York, Norwich and of course London.

        • Father Todd Unctious

          Neither Holy, nor Roman, nor an Empire.

          • Athelstane

            As famously glossed!

            In fairness, it was *never* Roman or Holy (confessional was the best it could manage), but early on, it legitimately passed for an empire.

      • Makroon

        As they say, the EU started out as the Hanseatic League and morphed into a (slightly more fanatical) Holy Roman Empire.
        In the future – a facsimile of the Ottoman Empire, entirely defunct but refusing to die ?

  • Ade

    FKK. Can we have that too, please?

    • Philip Fraser

      Try the one on Hanauer Landsrasse in Frankfurt that’s the best

  • If the UK leaves the EU the strong likelihood is that Germany will revert to the DM and associate with the Northern states. They have made it clear they will not carry the Latin states any longer even though the ECB and German banks hold most of the Latin debt in bonds that are worth little. They would like to ditch France but can’t since without France or the UK no-one else in Europe has nuclear capability.

  • MickC

    No country or people ever “joins” Germany. They are its master, or its subject. The EU has become its subject, as shown by Merkel unilaterally deciding EU immigration policy. More joys to come, undoubtedly, but no strength for the subject countries…..

    • AWoLsco

      “No country or people ever “joins” Germany.”

      Well the fact is that few , if any, countries or people, have been given the chance. Germany has only existed as a unified state for some 140-150 yrs…yet everybody talks about it as though it has existed for a thousand years. It’s really odd, looking back through history, to speculate where this myth of a love of war, domination and aggression came from.
      The truth is, the ‘Germans’ were more trampled upon, than they ever trampled on anyone. They are, in fact, largely a peace-loving people and left to their own devices would rather spend time adorning cathedrals and making exceedingly good cuckoo clocks.
      Look at the way they have to dress up and pump themselves up for war. They have to be persuaded and cajoled, even harassed, before they will take to the field, whereas give the Scots a couple of quid and a gun, and they’ll kill anyone.

      • MickC

        I believe there was a phrase “either at your feet or your throat”…. The former is greatly preferable, in order that their penchant for cathedrals and cuckoo clocks can be properly indulged…..and supervised.

        • AWoLsco

          “either at your feet or your throat”..

          Infantile wartime propaganda and Hollywood rubbish.

          I’ve made a point , throughout my life of checking out this utter nonsense, by contact with Germans, learning something of the language, visiting Germany and Austria, and the real-life stories handed down by my relatives who fought against them in both WWs.
          My uncle spent time in Stalagluft 111, when the ‘great escape’ was on.
          He didn’t make a bid for freedom.

          Why?

          Because he was well-treated and knew from conversations with the guards that conditions outside the camp were little better than inside, and the chances of evading recognition and capture were just about zero….as they would be for a German in Scotland.
          A New Zealand wartime pilot of my acquaintance always maintained that during the war, the best person to surrender to, if you had to, was a German policeman!

          • MickC

            I believe the phrase preceded the War, and was not of Hollywood origin.

            Indeed, Germans on a personal level are perfectly pleasant, but the personal level is not the issue. The difficulty is the en masse level. As another comment points out, they are rather fond of following rules, no matter what they are. We do not.

            I would have very much liked to discuss such matters with my forebears who were involved in the hostilities. The fact that I could not may well have coloured my views…..

          • AWoLsco

            “very much liked to discuss such matters with my forebears who were
            involved in the hostilities. The fact that I could not may well have
            coloured my views….”

            Here we go again.

            The maudlin, wounded hero, nursing his wrath to keep it warm…..and poison everyone around him.
            Might be an idea to take up the matter with your British/ English bosses and suggest to them that declaring war on a technologically advanced people like the Germans is not such a good idea.
            You know, peace-loving though the Germans are, they will fight back if fired on or bombed. Shouldn’t be allowed. It’s an outrage! There should be a law against it!

            Better to get your government to stick to tribesmen with spears, bows and arrows and dug-out canoes. Much more profitable…..and a lot less risky for you and your relatives…eh?

          • MickC

            Oh dear, bit of a nerve hit there! It was you who raised the “personal experience” point, I merely added mine…fair rebuttal, or comment, I think.
            However, I certainly agree that “the War” was a colossal error by the rulers of the British Empire. Germany’s interests in Eastern Europe were not properly a British concern, but a national myth is hard to overturn….
            Germany was not more technologically advanced than Britain; it invaded Russia on foot and horse mainly.
            Germany could never have won, even without the USA becoming a belligerent; its economy was overstretched, Britain had the resources of the Empire.
            And yes, always best to wage war on those inferior to oneself; Germany should have taken heed.

          • AWoLsco

            “always best to wage war on those inferior to oneself; Germany should have taken heed.”

            …But, but…..England(and stupid little Scotland) ie ‘WE’, declared war on Germany.
            ….”.and so WE are at war with Germany”, announced Chamberlain over the radio.
            To which the late Spike Milligan merrily replied……” I like the way he uses the word …..’WE”.
            Just so . Just so.
            A democratic decision?…….Not on your nelly.

            That decision ruined Britain and the empire. Hitler had no ambitions whatsoever to conquer Britain or disrupt its empire. Quite the opposite. In fact he offered the support of German forces if the British Empire ever needed shoring up….which it did….frequently.

            His ambition, and that of most patriotic Germans was ‘Drang nach Osten,’ and the snuffing out of the bolsheviks, the greatest calamity ever to befall European Christendom.

          • Father Todd Unctious

            Hitler had no ambition as regards Britain as he had zero chance of winning a conflict with us. We outgunned and outspent them almost from the off. Hitler was a poor leader and an abysmal strategist.

          • AWoLsco

            “We outgunned and outspent them almost from the off”

            At sea, yes.In the air? Possibly 50:50…on land, the British army was a shambles…… Thrashed in Norway by the Wehrmacht and WaffenSS and let off the hook by Hitler at Dunkirk….in the vain hope that the English might see sense and leave Germany alone to fight the REAL EVIL, the murderous, non-Russian, Christian-hating bolsheviks of the USSR.

            “Hitler was a poor leader and an abysmal strategist.”

            You can’t point the finger at one man for what was a team effort.
            Churchill was a drunken, militarily-inept idiot. Stalin,man of steel( I ask you, what a pumped up little fart) real name, Josef Djugashvilli, was a good bank robber but little else….and Rooseveldt( real name Rosenfeld) little more than a yes-man and mouthpiece of the Wall-Street bankster mob.
            There was no Alexander the Great or Julius Caesar in WW2.

          • MickC

            My previous reply has been “lost in moderation” apparently….presumably because it compared the Special Relationship to that of a streetwalker and her controller..

          • right1_left1

            Re your comment on national myths and WW2.
            Since everything in the UK has gone ttittts up since 1945 the only thing remaining is self deception.

            Germany would have won provided that no war took place between them and Russia (most unlikely) and the USA had not become involved or had concentrated its efforts on the Far East.

          • MickC

            No, not true, I’m afraid. Germany did not have the resources or economy to “win”, the British Empire did. War is always about economics.
            But yes, it was a war best not fought by Britain. However, empires always overreach, as the American empire has. It will retrench in the next two or three decades; even if Trump does not win, his ideas on that will be absorbed, and grow.

          • right1_left1

            I think it would not have been beyond the German propaganda machine to undermine any contribution the Empire would make to the ‘UK alone’ war effort.
            In fact it wouldn’t need propaganda.
            Just facts re the UK’s historical role and attitude to the colonies.

            i am not a ‘heat bleeding’ liberal on the matter.
            Historical events can only be rightly judged in the context of the values of the time.
            Empires had arisen and collapsed for at least 3000 years.
            The UK was no different in that respect.

            See the US attempts at hegemony which you point to.

          • MickC

            Again, I must disagree. During the war the main British propaganda was of the “all in it together”, rather than “Britain alone” type. Also, Britain is absolutely brilliant at propaganda; ours is much more subtle than others, but much more effective. The UK is one of the most culturally creative nations, and sells its culture widely…even though we make very few of the material goods.
            I too am not a bleeding heart liberal; the point of empire is profit….and we did prior to the Great War. Controlling the world’s reserve currency was the key, as it is now for the USA.

          • right1_left1

            Well i just did a ‘quick surf’ on the net and apparently Germany did create Indian only divisions.
            After the war the soldiers were sent back to India where the intention was to try them for treason.
            public outcry stopped that indicating the base at which German propaganda would have been targetted.

            Take into account the German propaganda would say
            We are in it together to overturn British oppression.
            That would not have been difficult to inculcate and I feel confident would have worked.

            Japanese intentions towards India could have been exploited by the UK but we are considering Germany v the UK

          • Father Todd Unctious

            Everything in the UK gone to ttitts since 1945. Would that include the NHS, free primary and secondary education, Concorde, the Internet, life expectancy up by 25 years , Infant mortality rates down by 85%, murders down by 40%.
            Easier divorce, abortion, the pill, contraception, the abolition of hanging, the end of conscription, the massive decline in smoking, and the end of smog?

          • right1_left1

            There exist many who deserve to be executed.
            The NHS was conceived before 1945 , implemented later and expenditure on it is now out of control.

            Education has been debased to the point where most succeed and anyone who wishes can go to University.

            Easier divorce has produced psychologically damaged children with a massive bill to support the consequences.
            Crime obesity single mothers etc

            Conscription never did anybody harm..
            Yes I did 2 years from 56 to 58
            I didnt like it much but it broadened my horizons and introduced me to technology.
            I was a clueless SAC (ground radar) in the RAF.
            You may have noticed many subject to military discipline come to appreciate it.

            Your reduction in crime point is totally preposterous !

            Some of your other points maybe true but are relatively inconsequential
            eg ?
            reduction in smog is of very little benefit if at the same time the ground work is estabilished for debased social stability and failing economic performance.

          • IlikeBrits

            “the best person to surrender to, if you had to, was a German policeman!” LOL, a late friend of us, a German airman had the same idea and did so when he was downed to a British policeman…” …and he was right to do so!

      • Father Todd Unctious

        Germany should not do War. Germany does not have a good track record in turning early success into victory.

        • AWoLsco

          “Germany does not have a good track record in turning early success into victory.”

          Sure. Frederick the Great was a just a lucky nancy boy and Blucher and the Prussians turning up at Waterloo to save the British necks was just pure fiction.

          • Father Todd Unctious

            Frederick the Great was educated by French Hugeunots. Blucher learnt his soldiery in the Swedish army fighting against Germans.You are thinking of the Kingdom of Prussia from 1701 to 1871.
            Prussia was nearly half Polish and comprised only 15% of modern Germany and its German population. Bavarians , Swabians, Saxons, Hanoverians and Westphalians have less of a martial record.

          • AWoLsco

            “Frederick thec Great was educated by French Hugeunots”

            What good taste.

            Whenever everyone thinks of Prussia, they tend to think , as I did, of a grimly-repressed, militaristic society, when in fact it was probably the most enlightened, open, tolerant society in Europe of that time. People flocked to it from all over….from Austria( notably the Salzburg miners) to Scotland, for the opportunity for advancement, ownership of property and land.
            Poland, Danzig in particular, was a magnet for Scots emigrants(before the notorious union with England), but it wasn’t long before they penetrated Prussia. Frederick’s right-hand man and key adviser was James Keith, Field Marshal of the Prussian forces. Many Scots enlisted in the Prussian army in preference to the English or self-styled British army.(Rudolf Hess flies to Scotland….why?)

            Strange times and strange circumstances.
            Keith arrived in Prussia ,not from Scotland, but from Russia where he had served with distinction as a general and for a time was Viceroy of Finland.
            A statue in his honour was erected by Frederick the Great in Keith’s native Peterhead, Aberdeenshire…and if it is not standing to this day….then it should be.

          • Tamerlane

            Prussia was not nearly half Polish, the Poles were a minority of around 2 million within Prussia which had a pop. of something around 20 million I think and came within Prussia because they were conquered by them.

            It’s true. You do just make it up as you go along.

          • Father Todd Unctious

            Population of Prussia in 1816 was 10 million including 3 million Polish speakers. It’s true you do just make random guesses.

          • Tamerlane

            Oh I see. You’re back to moving goalposts now and choosing dates that are most convenient to the rubbish you preach. Of course you are.

          • Father Todd Unctious

            Depends when you look. You chose the population right at the end of Prussia independent existence in 1870. Why not at the beginning in say 1650 when it was almost wholly in modern Poland? Did that not fit your agenda?

          • Tamerlane

            It just wasn’t a Polish construct, the Poles were a minority in Prussia that never made it to the 25% mark and were in there because they were conquered and Prussia was never ‘almost wholly in modern Poland’, that’s total cr@p. No amount of wriggling or ‘agenda setting’ by you will ever change that. Next time you go to Uni study a solid degree like History, it might help you.

          • Father Todd Unctious

            That is cheeky. You know I have two history degrees and 40 plus years of study on you. You just have a crushing inferiority complex that manifests as sniping and insults. Sad but true.

          • Tamerlane

            You have information. No knowledge.

          • Father Todd Unctious

            And you are qualified to judge I assume. Your chippy sniping is motivated by envy. You hate that I know stuff .
            Your typical day involves monitoring my posts ,then wikipediaing the detail to seek a handful of slight errors that you can pretend to know about. You are a shallow sham Tammy.
            Angry at being so regularly bested and desperate to prove me wrong. You usually fail so resort to insult,like a primary school kid. Try developing an argument if your own. Try reading a history book, or looking at a map.

      • Cadwan

        Bismarck expressed the essence of Realpolitik in his subsequently famous “Blood and Iron” speech to the Budget Committee of the Prussian Chamber of Deputies on 30 September 1862, shortly after he became Minister President: “The great questions of the time will not be resolved by speeches and majority decisions—that was the great mistake of 1848 and 1849—but by iron and blood.”

        Germany tried to resolve the “great questions” by use of “iron and blood” without much success so Bismarck was wrong.

        • AWoLsco

          “Germany tried to resolve the “great questions” by use of “iron and blood”

          Of course, had Bismarck been a tewibly, tewibly ever-so nice English gentleman like yourself…….He would have said……
          “Tell you what lads. The situation is hopeless. Let’s pack it in now and surrender to whosoever turns up, before anyone gets hurt, and just let everyone else in Europe walk all over us.

          Let’s become the doormats of Europe.
          You know it makes sense.
          Personally, I vote we let the English rule over us. They’re so intelligent, kind and pillars of moral rectitude.Corruption is unknown amongst them….and they play cricket as well.”

          • Cadwan

            Britain was successful in the two wars against Germany by choosing the right allies, this is a better strategy in the long run than the simplistic use of “Iron and Blood”. We didn’t let Germany walk all over us, we fought them to a standstill in the Battle of Britain.

          • AWoLsco

            “Britain was successful in the two wars against Germany”

            Where was the success? There was no profit in the WWs whatsoever.
            The country was bankrupted and the empire was lost and included many humiliating defeats….Narvik…Dunkirk……and Singapore.
            70yrs on, I do wish you old vainglorious buffers would take off your propaganda-tinted spectacles and face true facts square in the face.
            Your failure to do so does a disservice to the coming generations of Britons.
            How can they face the future without being given the hard facts and realities of the past?……NOT cosy cuddly war-time propaganda.

          • Cadwan

            “Where was the success?”

            We won, isn’t that better than being walked over?

            I agree that there was no profit in either world war, we would have been better off isolating ourselves from European alliances but we were saddled with old fashioned ideals like chivalry, fair play and supporting the under-dog. You must have noticed that after Culloden?

  • Yorkieeye

    Brown nosing the Germans has been annexed by the French.

  • awooble

    On those grounds, California should join New York and Texas and shake off all of those other poor spongers. Please note that the Spanish Queen Emeritus is also related to the Duke of Edinburgh, that the recently deceased Duchess of Alba would have been Queen of Scotland, and that the English language is full of French, Italian (and Indian) words as well. The evidence on which these arguments are based are spurious to say the least.

    • mnemos

      Sounds like a German sense of humor….

  • Lucius_Severus_Pertinax

    Are the Royal Navy and the Bundesmarine going to meet for joint maneuvers somewhere off the West coast of Jutland, this May 31st?

    • AWoLsco

      “Royal Navy and the Bundesmarine going to meet for joint maneuvers somewhere off the West coast of Jutland,”

      Yes, I think a friendly ‘re-enactment’ has been mooted. However it won’t be so spectacular as the original. The English can only field a few rubber dinghies filled with blubbering lassies and nancy boys, and an aircraft carrier without aircraft….but admirals galore poncing all over the shop.
      ……While the Germans will be without their legendary unterwasserbooten…having sold them all to the Israelis as part of their on-going post-WW2 guilt-trip, which looks set to continue unto eternity.

      • Lucius_Severus_Pertinax

        The German battle-cruisers of the Derfflinger class, as well as their counterparts of the Lion Class (especially their half-sister, HMS Tiger) were remarkably handsome ships. 😉

  • Conway

    Not only are we temperamentally similar to our German friends, we also have more in common with them than we do with our neighbours the French, or even our cousins the Americans” Not spent much time in Germany or with Germans, then? I’ll grant you the French, but I don’t have much in common with people who think that you can’t do anything unless there’s a law to allow you to do it, or who have such slavish obedience to rules that they won’t cross the road if the red man is showing, despite there being no traffic in sight.

    • 100

      Only someone who has lived in Germany or suffered the excruciating pain of doing contracts & deals in Germany (with the Greens breathing over everything like a dragon) could appreciate your comment.

      Germans as a people I like a lot, but they are easy slaves.

      • Cal

        Old stereotypes.

        Don’t know how it was 10 years ago but today doing contracts and deals in the UK is largely the same as doing contracts and deals in Germany. If anything sign off in the UK tends to be longer and receiving payment when working with a big company tends to be a particularly cumbersome chase up.

        • 100

          Thats company private cashflow not political bureaucratic interference. You clearly dont do business in Germany or Europe for that matter.

          • Cal

            Yes I did not do business there 10 years ago. And you are right today I don’t do business anywhere in Europe other than Germany, UK and Switzerland.

            Today, for us, doing contracts and deals in Germany involves the usual sales process that we go through in the UK – our SC and lawyers have smoothed out the process. For my company, Switzerland it is a bit different and can be harder.

            My point about payment fits in the context of what the OP is talking about – ease of doing business. We don’t usually have the problems of chasing up payment in Germany that we often do with big companies in the UK.

          • 100

            yes but that has nothing to do with the EU, which is the subject of this article and the thread and the OP and so irrelevant and totally offtopic

          • Cal

            I addressed the “doing contracts and deals with Germans” aspect too.

            The OP in his comment is focused on working with the Germans as is much of the article. You don’t like me bringing up the fact that we get paid easily in Germany. Nevertheless, for my company, this is a key aspect of doing business and one that we appreciate the German companies that we work with.

    • Cal

      Road crossing? Also true in the UK.

      Self policing is a good thing as I saw in Berlin – Cyclists get told off by other Cyclists if they break the rules e.g. going down the Cycle lane the wrong way. This keeps everyone safe.

  • Sargon the bone crusher

    For many years I HAVE ADVOCATED AN ANSCHLUSS.
    LONG OVERDUE TO HAVE THE GERMAN B TEAM RUNNING THE SHOW.
    I just love those leather greatcoats.
    Blond camp guards in Wandsworth. Sounds fun.

  • Trailblazer10

    They seem to have a propensity for following maniacs. They are at it again. Not all of them, of course – see various cries for help on youtube from decent Germans.

    Americans have recently made a similar mistake – twice in a row. Maybe enough will be able to see through the deceptions and smears such as in this in this article and use the forthcoming election as a peaceful revolution.

  • jeffersonian

    ‘Not only are we temperamentally similar to our German friends’

    ..what a travesty: I have yet to meet a German who recognises irony in any form, and if any European country treasured individuality it surely was (is?) Britain.

    • Trailblazer10

      If you enjoy irony , check this parody:

      “Periodic reminder that Trump advocates NEO-FASCIST policies like holding
      the press accountable for spreading lies, slander, and propaganda”

      “Cruz has demonstrated ability to cooperate with entrenched party interests to enact his agenda sans voter input. That screams “POTUS” to me!”

      “Where did you voters get these pie-in-the-sky ideas about mattering to the GOP? Frankly we don’t need you at all until November. Ryan 2016!”

      https://twitter.com/demsrrealracist?lang=en-gb

    • Pip

      Germany as a democratic, safe and prosperous Nation is finished, Merkel has destroyed it and now she conspires with other Traitors to spread Islam around Europe in service of the NWO Agenda of her Globalist Elite masters. Merkel deserves everything that is coming her way very soon, and far worse in fact.

      • Leon Wolfeson

        Ah, so that excuse for your desire to lead a coup… right. Thanks, NWOer.

  • Tom Cullem

    As it happens, even the German powerhouse economy is showing signs of strain. And if we join up with Germany, we get . . . another million Muslim immigrants . . . Danke but nein.

    • AWoLsco

      Anyone that looks to Germany as leader of Europe needs their head examined.

      Germany is the mental cripple of Europe and…. let us not forget…still an occupied country….led by a communist zealot…Angela Merkel, nee Kasner, a German jewish name.
      Her parents, unbelievably, actually emigrated from Hamburg to the tragi-comically named DDR or Deutsche Demokratische Republik( communist East Germany to you and me) in the late forties. Her father was known as ‘Red ‘ Kasner and that nickname was conferred on him by his fellow German commies.
      Germany was not just composed of ‘nazis’
      There was almost an equal number of commies…and now , post WW2, guess who rules the roost?

      • Bokonon

        The Jews?

        • Father Todd Unctious

          You despicable twit. The Speccie are horribly at fault for not moderating this.

          • Bokonon

            Piss off, you stupid little turd.

          • Father Todd Unctious

            You absolute nitwit. What a shame idiots like you lack erudition and learning to the point that you spout nonsense then can only defend it with vulgar abuse. You horrid simpleton.

          • FMA

            I do believe Bokonon was alluding to AWoLsco’s neo-Nazi tendencies.

          • AWoLsco

            “AWoLsco’s neo-Nazi tendencies.”

            Well, whatever he may be, I can confirm he’s definitely NOT a huggy, fluffy, pinko commie.

      • Tom Cullem

        We appear to be spoiled for choice re your last question, but spit it out, son, or are you afraid to?

        • AWoLsco

          “What a bloody mess Merkel has made of things”

          No she’s doing a great job…for the Christian-hating banksters….not the German people.
          It’s the same all over Europe…Greece, Denmark, Sweden, France.

          The elite, and their comrades in arms, the bureaucracy, aided and abetted by the mass media, that’s the guys you and I pay, do the very opposite to what you and I, the citizenry, expect.
          They’re all in it together in one almighty scam conducted under the guise of socialism.
          If you and I withheld our taxes from those thieves….they would be gone tomorrow….but they know that. That’s why there’s a law against withholding taxes…..but you and I voted for it.
          But hold on…..I don’t remember ever voting for this.
          I was born into the system…..and stupidly accepted it…..until now.

  • WTF

    That would have been true up to when the “Madness of Merkel” kicked in and invited 2-3 million illegal migrants into the EU.

  • mf

    no more war over Danzig. An old dream …

  • IMBMB

    They certainly gave Coventry town planning!

    • Flintshire Ian

      Maybe they should come back and finish the job?
      A good start would be the dreadful ring road. The town centre is no better.

      • Father Todd Unctious

        Coventry is one of the most shockingly undeveloped cities. I wanttoncry each time I am dumped in that dump. It is a dump.

        • Tamerlane

          You can’t blame the women for knowing better.

      • CRSM

        Come friendly bombs and fall on Coventry? No, doesn’t scan right.

        • Flintshire Ian

          Maybe we compromise and just line up the town planners against the wall and shoot them?

  • averagebritain

    Germany, twice, determinedly wrecked Europe (and the rest of the world) in the 20th Century. All for their own purpose and the Nazis had nothing to do with the First World War. I see no reason why we should conjoin with such a Nation. Britain is better on its own and should have nothing to do with Germany, other than with a free trade agreement.

    • Tom M

      Mmm yes what you say is true but the French declared war on Germany in 1870 (and the angst that created kept the French looking for revenge right up till WW1 ) and for the 200 years before that invaded Germany 30 times.

      • Father Todd Unctious

        Not really. Germany only existed from 1871.

        • Tom Cullem

          Ha – good catch! Perhaps we should think about . . .Prussia? Oh, those uniforms!

        • Tom M

          What you mean is a united Germany. The French tried very hard to prevent Germany uniting fearing their combined power would be a challenge to France’s Euopean pre-eminence.
          Bismark provoked the Fench into declaring war on Germany 1870 because he seen a French attack on all German states as the quickest way to unify them. It worked.

    • Father Todd Unctious

      We are better having nothing to do with Germans. They are psychologically damaged. What my old grandad called nutters.

    • John

      I sometimes wonder who eventually won the second world war. ? we in Britain removed much engineering equipment from Germany under the spoils of war arrangement, what happened next ? America AND Britain then supplied Germany with brand new modern equipment while we were left with their redundant engineering equipment.so that is why we are always trying to catch up with German engineering. British Engineers are still as good as anyone in the world.

      • averagebritain

        And Britain was stuck with rationing until 1954, I think, John.

        • John

          please unsubscribe me. thank you.John

          From: Disqus
          To: jay6leen@yahoo.co.uk
          Sent: Sunday, 17 April 2016, 0:57
          Subject: Re: Comment on Let’s leave the EU and join Germany

          #yiv3518334106 #yiv3518334106 a:hover, #yiv3518334106 a:hover span {color:#1188d2!important;}#yiv3518334106 .yiv3518334106button-cta:hover {color:#ffffff!important;background-color:#1188d2!important;}#yiv3518334106 .yiv3518334106button-cta:hover span {color:#ffffff!important;}#yiv3518334106 #yiv3518334106 #yiv3518334106 #yiv3518334106outlook a {padding:0;}#yiv3518334106 body {width:100% !important;}#yiv3518334106 .yiv3518334106ReadMsgBody {width:100%;}#yiv3518334106 .yiv3518334106ExternalClass {width:100%;display:block;}#yiv3518334106 @media screen and ( _filtered_a ){#yiv3518334106 html {}#yiv3518334106 .yiv3518334106content {width:100%;}#yiv3518334106 table {border-collapse:collapse;}#yiv3518334106 h2.yiv3518334106headline {font-weight:700;font-size:20px!important;margin-bottom:5px;}#yiv3518334106 .yiv3518334106button-cta {display:block!important;padding:0!important;}#yiv3518334106 div.yiv3518334106header {padding-top:20px;}#yiv3518334106 div.yiv3518334106footer {padding-bottom:20px;}}#yiv3518334106 #yiv3518334106 p.yiv3518334106mod-tools a:hover {color:white!important;background:#8c989f!important;}#yiv3518334106 @media screen and ( _filtered_a ){#yiv3518334106 td.yiv3518334106avatar, #yiv3518334106 td.yiv3518334106spacer {width:38px!important;}#yiv3518334106 td.yiv3518334106avatar img, #yiv3518334106 td.yiv3518334106spacer img {width:28px!important;}}”And Britain was stuck with rationing until 1954, I think, John.” | |
          | |  Settings | |
          |   |

          | |

          | |
          |
          A new comment was posted on The Spectator
          |
          | |
          |
          | |
          averagebritain
          And Britain was stuck with rationing until 1954, I think, John. 7:57 p.m., Saturday April 16 | Other comments by averagebritain |   |
          |
          |   | Reply to averagebritain |   |

          |
          |   |

          |

          | averagebritain’s comment is in reply to John: |
          |   |
          | | I sometimes wonder who eventually won the second world war. ? we in Britain removed much engineering equipment from Germany under the spoils of war arrangement …Read more |
          |
          | |

          | |

          | |
          | You’re receiving this message because you’re signed up to receive notifications about replies to disqus_hnloqQv240. You can unsubscribe from emails about replies to disqus_hnloqQv240 by replying to this email with “unsubscribe” or reduce the rate with which these emails are sent by adjusting your notification settings. | | |

          | |

  • Polly Radical

    If your neighbour burns down his house, should you join him?
    Tough decision.

    • 100

      Id encourage him to come out, even pull him out,
      then p**s on whats left

  • right1_left1

    Since ve Germans speak bessere English than you lot we do not want to join on equal terms.
    If you wish to join as a junior partner then we might consider it.

    A first requirement would be that you English have greater respect for engineering.
    Any nation where many in authority think automobile manufacture is ‘chassis bashing’ is worthless.

    Ve Germans do have a sense of humour.
    We larf lots at English hubrits
    A piddly nation run by other worldly products of an apartheid education system and clinging in desperation to US coat tails.

    • MC

      8 no 10
      when you guys learn how to win things other than through penalty shoot outs, we’ll talk

    • HJ777

      Strangely, the Mercedes-Benz F1 team in based in Brackley in Northamptonshire, which is where they design and build the chassis. It is powered by an engine designed and built in Northampton. Overwhelmingly it is staffed by British engineers, as is the case for most F1 teams.

      And by the way, if you have a mobile phone then much of the engineering in it is designed in Britain. And next time you fly by plane it is highly unlikely to be powered by German engines – British ones are far, far, more likely.

      Contrary to popular opinion, we in the UK are rather good at engineering. Just not so good at metal bashing.

      • Tom M

        Motor racing apart I would try not to make too many comparisons between German engineering and the current state of British engineering.

        • HJ777

          Really?

          Then where is the German equivalent of Rolls-Royce? Indeed, we have a substantially larger aerospace industry than Germany. For example, the world’s dominant manufacturer of ejector seats is British.

          Where is the German-designed microprocessor architecture that is shipped in greater volume than any other and has become the world industry standard?

          There are many other examples of engineering where Britain has excellent firms. We tend to do the metal bashing and basic manufacturing less well, but when it comes to high technology engineering we are really pretty good.

          • Notrut .

            BMW bought RR cars in 1998 …

            Try to keep up.

          • HJ777

            Rolls-Royce cars is merely a licence to use the name R-R on cars.

            Rolls-Royce is an aero (and other) engine manufacturer on an altogether bigger scale than the modestly size car concern now owned by BMW that uses the R-R name.

            Do try to keep up.

          • Notrut .

            As Shareholder I’m well aware that they’re separate.

          • right1_left1

            Are you seriously claiming that micro processer architetcure is designed in the UK ?
            Please provide a source for that.
            I tried to search ; it was tedious and all i could find was reference to Intel Motorola and AMD

            You will be claiming UK rockets are lead the world next.
            hehehehehehehe

          • HJ777

            “Are you seriously claiming that micro processer [sic] architecure [sic] is designed in the UK ?”

            Dear me. You are seriously ignorant, aren’t you?

            More ARM-based microprocessors are shipped worldwide than all other architectures put together. Over 50 billion so far. The ARM architecture is licensed to virtually every major semiconductor company (specialist memory producers apart), including Intel.

            For example, virtually every mobile phone contains an ARM processor. So do nearly all tablet computers. There are many other applications. I used to run a group integrating multiple ARM designs into the mobile phone base station network.

            Before that, I worked for ARM. I can assure you that it originated in, and develops its microprocessor architecture in, the UK.

          • CRSM

            You beat me to that answer. ARM is a shining light in the design of power and cost-efficient CPU architectures.

          • right1_left1

            I did not know anything about ARM tho’ I do remember the BBC micro that apparently was designed by a Cambridge Uni team that has developed into ARM
            So ARM is a success and I’m pleased to hear that.

            As far as I can tell ARM designs software which it licenses to those who can manufacture it.
            ie implement the design in hardware.
            It produces Reduced Instruction Set designs which have benefited due to the expansion of mobile phones etc.

            Compare and contrast with Intel

            I will happily send congratulations to ARM when
            (1)I next visit an airport and look for UK produced aeroplanes.
            I will not forget Rolls Royce engines tho’
            (2) When I see cranes diggers earth shifters etc all manfactured in the Far East.
            (3) When I see all the foreign produced automobiles on UK roads especially the high quality German cars
            (4) When I peruse the TV departments of supermarkets and see marvels produced by Samsung LG Panasonic Sony etc
            (5) When I see those foreign manufactuted robots and machine tools helping to produce automobiles in Japanese owned and financed assembly plants in the UK.
            (6) When I see that to produce electricity by nuclear power we will have to buy the reactor from abroad.
            (7)When I know that most utilities especiallay gas are now foreign owned That really pleases me that does So an extra big kiss to ARM required.
            (8)When I see all the UK manufactured ships sailing the worlds oceans.
            (9)When i read of the collapse of steel production in the UK
            (10)When I know that we no longer produce machine tools in any quantity

            I could go on and maybe you can counter with some UK success but in my lifetime the UK has collapsed into a consumer led debt ridden welfare dependant hole from which it most probably will never extracate itself.

            Sincere congratulations to ARM technolgy even so.

          • right1_left1

            Re German engineering.
            I worked as a technician for a major telecomms company. since collapsed.
            I used to maintain (amongst many other things) German signal generators.made by Siemens and Wandel and Goltermann

            The German equipment was stable in both frequency and output level and never failed.

            A UK copy (made by the firm I worked for ) used to drift all over the place and due to the heterodyne method of producing output frequently ‘fall over ‘ie no ouput at all
            This was caused by internal frequency drift.

            Just a true story from some one who so to speak worked at the coal face
            An ‘umble technician.

          • right1_left1

            I wonder if HJ777 knows that the UK had a fully functional automated phone system called system X
            Another major British success he may say proving that doom mongers like me are
            quote seriously ignorant

            I wonder if HJ777 also knows system X was delivered many years late and way over budget because the design of the processor failed and had to be sub contracted to the USA.

            Just another fact known to those at the coal face.

            adding:
            SSB radios installed in the ‘Queen’ transatlantic liners had to be removed due to failure.
            A miniature ‘walky talky’ for police use was a costly failure.
            Dont ask me how I know. I just do

          • HJ777

            You’re wrong. I designed components for System X.

          • HJ777

            I think we’ve already established that you aren’t very well informed about your subject.

            In fact, ARM designs hardware. I know infinitely more about ARM than you do. You hadn’t even heard of them.

            When you next visit an airport you might like to think about the fact that the UK has the world’s second biggest aerospace industry (after the USA). And that the world’s number two aero engine maker is based here. Or that Airbuses wouldn’t fly very well without their wings (all engineered and produced here).

            And you did know that the UK exports more steel by value than it imports?

          • right1_left1

            Aerospace industry.
            Does that include the world shaking probe tha left Leicester and proceeded to disappear on Mars having been transported on a Russian rocket !

            From the tenor of your posts I’m beginning to think that like the German Officer (Gert Fro(e)be) in
            Those Magnificent Men in their Flying Machines
            there is nothing you have not or cannot do hehehehehehehe !!

            Point: of Info: do you not have to build hardware ?
            Software you design

            Where is the facility that builds ARM software.

          • HJ777

            You have to design hardware before it can be built.

            The Nissan European Technical Centre is in Bedfordshire. It employs about 600, most of whom are technical staff.

          • CRSM

            Motorola? How many decades are you out of date? The processor part of Motorola became a separate company, Freescale, a long time ago.

          • Tom M

            I don’t know what your background is but before I retired my job was chief engineer for a large UK manufacturing company making building materials.
            As part of my job I was tasked with designing anything from complete new factories down to single production lines for new products.
            Tasked with a project I can assure you that it was not worth the bother to search the UK for people to provide what I wanted. My chosen suppliers would have come from Sweden, Italy or the USA but foremost from Germany.
            You are correct in what you mention and yes I agree there are a few very high tech specialist suppliers in the UK . I’m sure I could have found suppliers for parts of what I required but would have ended up fragmenting the job because they could only supply parts of what I wanted. If I went to Germany I could get all of what I wanted made to excellent standards and always worked.

          • HJ777

            It is certainly true that the profile of UK engineering companies is very different than in much of Europe.

            In general, our engineering base is more biased towards high technology manufacturing of products requiring specialist engineering or the non-manufacturing side of engineering (I cite ARM as a prime example – it’s a FTSE100 technology/engineering company but it manufactures nothing itself).

            Germany, for example, has retained a bigger manufacturing base but the general profile is tilted more towards manufacture of more basic products (that is not to say that they don’t have high technology manufacturing – they most certainly do, but as a percentage of the whole it is smaller).

            Your experience is different from mine because the building materials trade is generally relatively low technology manufacturing and we do less of that in the UK. I have worked in engineering (specifically electronics) environments for 30 years, mostly in the UK, working with teams of highly skilled engineers. Not since 1992, however, have I worked for a company which manufactured in the UK even though the engineering teams were based here.

            Do not conflate engineering with manufacturing – they are not necessarily the same.

      • right1_left1

        Look HJ we are discussing large scale mass production.
        It may well be that formula 1 engine development occurs in the UK but that is small beer and employs say a 100 people.
        What are the the other 20 million going to do ?

        I live in a much derided city that used to produce on a high value added scale. You name it it was made here..

        I do not know whwt went wrong but now we are reduced to Primark, B @ Q, Wilco and Chinese students at the local University.

        • HJ777

          I thought we were discussing engineering expertise.

          I gained this impression since you only mentioned engineering and you didn’t mention mass production.

          How silly of me.

          So what you meant when you talked about engineering was that Germans are better production line workers?

          But in any case, the vast majority of people in both the UK and Germany do not work in large scale mass production – and the number that do is shrinking in both countries.

          As for ‘hanging onto US coat tails’ that is surely something that Germany could more properly be accused of since it has long largely delegated its defence to the US and the UK (and simply hopes they won’t mind paying).

          • right1_left1

            Yes you are silly.
            High volume mass production rests on very very intricate highly skilled engineering.
            if you watch an aluminium alloy rectangle of metal being converted to an engine block under auto control or a strip of metal being being converted to 1000’s of needles you will appreciate how silly you are

            re working on a car assembly line the skill requred to produce robots is very high
            Probably Japanese/Korean but certainly not English.

            Same with tractors , road building diggers, railway rolling stock and ships.

            We have many graduates who can discuss the arts but are at root quite useless and very expensive to maintain.
            This maintenance is one of the things the welfare state does best.

          • HJ777

            I think I know rather more about how volume manufacturing and the engineering that goes into it than you do. Having spent most of my career (as an engineer) in the electronics industry it’s what I know about best.

            As for machining engine blocks, you do realise that one in three Ford engines worldwide is made in the UK?

            Most of today I was with a client in the UK who has just been designing and installing custom-designed control systems for a food manufacturing line. The customer was in the Netherlands but they had to come to the UK to find the engineering expertise they needed.

            But you were talking about the sort of basic high volume production that requires a lot of – generally low skilled – people. Otherwise why your reference to employment?

            As for road building diggers and similar equipment, I suspect that JCB (JC Bamford), the world’s third-largest construction equipment manufacturer, will be rather surprised if you are claiming that they are not English.

            I may be silly, but I know a lot more than you do.

          • right1_left1

            a quote from a website dated 2010

            Only a third of the components in a JCB digger – widely seen as a symbol of
            British manufacturing vigour – are now made in the UK. The proportion
            has fallen from 96 per cent to 36 per cent since 1979, reflecting the
            hollowing-out of supply chains by globalisation, takeovers and high
            taxation, according to Sir Anthony Bamford, JCB’s chairman.

          • HJ777

            Yes, it’s an international company and that is entirely normal for such a company. But it it based here and most of its products are engineered here.

          • right1_left1

            quote from wikipaedia
            At midday on Wednesday, 26 July 2013 Ford ended more than 100 years of vehicle manufacturing in the UK,

          • HJ777

            Yes, Ford production has been rationalised and concentrated and instead of assembling here (and I quote) “Ford’s UK operations are a global centre of excellence for powertrain development and production”.

            Remember you were telling me about the intricate engineering required for engine production?

            Pity VW didn’t concentrate their engine development here. Then perhaps they would have been able to get decent performance while meeting emissions standards and their incompetent engineers wouldn’t have had to cheat.

          • CRSM

            I’m sure that the VW design engineers were not incompetent. Though whether hubris had a part to play is a different matter.

          • HJ777

            They can’t have been that competent.

            Other manufacturers managed to design engines that were competitive on performance and economy whilst meeting emissions standards.

            WV/Audi’s however didn’t manage to, so resorted to cheating.

          • Jackthesmilingblack

            Check the JCB for diesel.
            Hint to Tony Martin.

          • John

            the only reason the German workers are better than us at engineering now is ,those companies employ semi skilled workers from all over Europe,as they accept lower pay and conditions,Britain once had one of the best engineering workforce in the World,untill those greedy manufacturers paid them off,we will eventually become a great engineering nation again,once we remove ourselves form this European dictatorship.we must VOTE NO TO EUROPE before we become a part of a federalist Europe,under the jackboot of Germany..

        • HJ777

          “It may well be that formula 1 engine development occurs in the UK but that is small beer and employs say a 100 people.”

          Not just the engines, but most of the world’s specialised motorsport cars.

          “Motosport Valley” in the UK employs about 40,000 people . 80% of the world’s specialist motorsport engineers are here.

          100 people, indeed.

          • Father Todd Unctious

            Le Mans would have fewer than 10 cars each year but for the UK motorsport industry. F1 would have maybe 4 cars on the grid.

      • CRSM

        We are indeed respected and successful in specialist engineering fields. The problem is that that lack of interest by our school and university leavers in more general engineering areas results in our continuing engineering decline. Not helped in any way when skilled and knowledgeable design engineers are still treated as untermensch by the borderline-retarded with their PPE degrees who make such a pigs-ear of governing us.

    • Jacobi

      I’d watch out if I were you. I’ve just been blocked on another site for being rude in better German than yours.
      Try google translate!

  • MC

    After Merkel hangs from a lamppost in the European traitor tradition, I’d consider starting talks, but the last PM to negotiated terms with Germany was Chamberlain. For those who don’t read history, that didn’t turn out well.

    • AWoLsco

      “the last PM to negotiate terms with Germany was Chamberlain.”

      What on earth was Chamberlain doing negotiating with Germany at all?
      How was some god-forsaken Ruritanian kingdom buried away in the bowels of Europe of interest to British citizens?…and as for Poland….I doubt few British citizens( oh sorry , Brits) knew where it was, far less be enthusiastic about donning uniform and shouldering a rifle, or some other killing machine, in its defence.
      Even to this day, I remain in some doubt as to where this benighted peasant country is precisely situated, and where its true borders really lie.
      Over the centuries it expands and contracts from decade to decade like some will o’ the wisp.
      Now you see it.Now you don’t.

      • Hagen vanTronje

        “”What on earth was Chamberlain doing negotiating with Germany at all?””

        Britain needed an excuse to go to war.
        After the Wall st. crash and the Great Depression a good bloody war was needed to revitilize westen Industry.
        They could have had the war back in 1935 when the Germans militarized the Rhineland and the French begged us to stand by them and stop Hitler in his tracks, it would have been a walkover for the Allies too ! but a long drawn out war was required so the French were told, non !
        Britain set up the Air defence system which won the battle of Britain, the war was a foregone conclusion, Poland was the excuse.

  • James Chilton

    Germany would never abandon the EU and become allied to any single nation – at least not until war guilt finally peters out. Old Mother Merkel will be replaced by another hand wringer when her day is over.

    • Chamber Pot

      It makes you almost miss Goebbels.

    • Makroon

      Unlike the UK, France, Spain, Portugal, and Holland, Germany never experienced the imperial experience, and they won’t stop trying until they have tasted it and found out how overrated it is. That’s really what the present EU is all about.
      The country which has only been a country for 145 disastrous years, presumes to dictate to Europe how it should arrange it’s affairs.

  • Chamber Pot

    Wishful thinking. The English are anarchic by nature and don’t like taking orders, and the scale of discontent in the UK reflects the fact that our leaders are by and large despised even more than the foreigners they have set to rule over us, most of them from piddling countries like Belgium or Luxemburg.

    After all no one in their right mind would put a French or German politician front and centre in the EU although it’s quite obvious that both are pulling the strings behind the scenes (more or less).

    • 100

      you make a valid point and the EU could be a very different animal without the Germans & French & the Benelux mishmash of nonidentity.
      There wouldn’t be too much money in the pot, but the people would be a damn site more content.

      • Father Todd Unctious

        Damned sight , I presume.

    • Hagen vanTronje

      Luxemborg is practically German, anyway the Germans used Luxembourg as their stalking horse because if the Germans had suggested founding an the Iron and Steel association (which was the start of the Common Market), then folk would have been suspicious but a Luxembourger and a Frenchman ? nobody thought that suspicious.

  • Fraser Bailey

    As an aside, has Mr Farndale ever lived/worked in Germany? (Despite having read more or less every edition of the Specator since 1981 I cannot read the whole article). I have lived/worked/paid taxes in Germany, France, the Netherlands and the UK, and done stuff in the US and Poland amongst others. I suggest that this makes me more qualified to comment upon these matters than the writer.

    • Makroon

      You are probably right …. so, what is your opinion ?

      • AWoLsco

        Yes, after that mighty impressive preamble….I was waiting on tenterhooks, for some blinding, incisive insight and pearls of wisdom on the state of Europe….but, alack and alas…..

  • 100

    Coming to a voting Booth near you
    23rd of June
    Independence Day
    (The only way is Out)

  • Jojje 3000

    Good idea, but the EU is really all small(er) European countries joining Germany,

    • John

      if we stay in Europe Jollie 3000,we will eventually speak GERMAN.NO THANK YOU.i WILL BE VOTING OUT OF EUROPE.

      • Jojje 3000

        It is highly likely that you have to start speaking German, whether in or out.

      • HJ777

        You can’t vote ‘out of Europe’, only out of the EU.

        We are a European nation whether we are in the EU or not.

  • Jackthesmilingblack

    test

    • Bokonon

      Congratulations, you passed.

      • Jackthesmilingblack

        Have to check whether I’m not blocked before inversting time and effort.
        Here’s an idea, blog off topic. Others will comment, and Spectator blogs will be turned into even more of a laughing stock.
        Give Ireland back to the Irish.

    • Son_of_Casandra

      Ickles?

  • Martin Jennerson

    America feels increasingly familiar with Trump. Without him, it feels increasingly familiar to Mexican people.

    • Father Todd Unctious

      It is inevitable that parts of the USA , New Mexico, Texas, Arizona, will be majority Spanish within less than a generation.
      These places will vote to secede and to return to Mexico.
      Then California…..about one generation later. The USA will begin to disintegrate in the next decade or so and Trump is the first symptom of their failure.

      • ossettian

        “It is inevitable that parts of the USA , New Mexico, Texas, Arizona, will be majority Spanish within less than a generation.”

        The probability is zero.

        I suppose you mean Spanish-speaking or Mestizo, but then we’ve already established that you’re an imbecile.

        • Father Todd Unctious

          Yes. Spanish speaking. Johnny Latino.

      • ossettian

        Why would they want to leave a welfare system financed by whites and East Asians?

        Rather defeats the point of moving there in the first place.

      • Tamerlane

        Drivel.

        • Father Todd Unctious

          Oh that explains it then.

      • Jackthesmilingblack

        You can see the fault lines in voting patterns.

      • FRP

        They were Spanish before the US annexed them and in some cases those Spanish speakers are part of an uninterrupted history of Hispanophones pertaining to the Hispanosphere. You seem to give the impression of sadness. I am sure in the Treaty of Guadalupe that New Mexico it states that Spanish is an official language and that treaty has not been amended.

        • Father Todd Unctious

          Not sad. Just commenting on an inevitable consequence of demographics and the passage of time.
          It is more pleasing to note that Russia will disintegrate much quicker than the USA.

  • plainsdrifter

    ‘We have the same Protestant work ethic as the Germans.’ You make joke – even though we are, in the main, protestant!

    I did enjoy the two anecdotes in the final paragraph, though. The rest was amusing nonsense.

    • FRP

      Well that depends! Anglicanism, in particular the High Anglicans celebrate Mass and have more Catholic inclinations whereas the Low Church probably is more Protestant. One has to remember the following: The Anglo (from Denmark) Saxons (from Germany) created England.

  • stuartMilan

    no thanks, now that it is possible for a German TV comedian to be prosecuted at the request of the Turkish PM. one does wonder if Merkel isn’t secretly campaigning for Brexit.

    • Makroon

      That’s what this Farndale twit doesn’t understand – The Germans “always obey ze orders”, even when Merkel invites in a million random migrants, they can’t raise more than a couple thousand demonstrators.
      In direct contradiction, Brits NEVER obey orders, especially “ze orders”.

      • Son_of_Casandra

        Probably the most insightful comment here and the reason why we are fundamentally different from the Germans. The first thing most Brits do when ordered to do something is ask “Why?”.

  • Jack Rocks

    My Granddad would be rotating furiously in his grave. It’s too soon…

    • Father Todd Unctious

      Turning. Not rotating.

      • Jackthesmilingblack

        Give that story a positive spin.

  • Discuscutter

    If Britain was in a union with Germany it would be in serious trouble as their economy is too competitive.

  • ossettian

    Keith Laumer’s “Imperium” series:

    “Books set in the Imperium mythos: a continuum of parallel worlds policed by the Imperium, a government based in an alternate Stockholm. In the science fiction novel Worlds of the Imperium, the Imperium is formed in an alternate history where the American Revolution did not occur, and the British Empire and Germany merged into a unified empire in 1900.”

    • Father Todd Unctious

      You can get help. The NHS is slow and cumbersome but does have experts and can help you.

      • ossettian

        I need help because I remember books I read when I was a teen?

        You can’t be helped because imbecility is permanent.

        But I’m pleased someone helped you with your spelling.

        • Father Todd Unctious

          You make less sense than a child randomly pointing . Why bother?

          • ossettian

            I accept your surrender.

          • Father Todd Unctious

            Err. What? Are you proper bonkers?

          • ossettian

            You don’t need to surrender twice.

            But I suppose imbeciles don’t grasp that.

  • Sanctimony

    Germany has a huge guilt complex as a result of the obscenities and atrocities of the last war… and all their foreign policy is influenced by this inferiority complex….

    As a contrast Israel trades on its own WWII persecution to aggressively extend its political, geographical and ideological boundaries.

    • The superiority complex is not berried that deep, may the inferiority complex continue for the foreseeable future else we are all fu….

    • Tom Cullem

      Yes, we noticed – you can cross Israel in two hours. Germany: 80 million people. Israel: 8.5 million. It’s about the size of New Jersey. Quite the expansion, that.

      • Father Todd Unctious

        Israel has more than doubled it’s territory since 1948 and quadrupled it’s population. It expands at about 50 sq miles a year.

  • Tom Cullem

    Germany is holding a good deal of bad debt now due to the Chinese slowdown.

    And as for Merkel – she just sold out the principle of free speech to Erdogan in the Bohmermann case in order to ensure Erdogan doesn’t put all those migrants on boats and send them her way, finishing off Schengen and her Chancellorship. The headline on “Die Welt” this evening is “Angela Merkels Kotau (“kow tow”) vor Erdogan”.

    What a bloody mess Merkel has made of things. We’d be better off hooking ourselves up to Denmark.

    • Father Todd Unctious

      Bit of a difference in size. Germany is 16 times the size of Denmark in population and GDP.

      • Tom Cullem

        Yes (he said, grinning), I know.

      • AWoLsco

        Ho, ho. One of my favourite campaigns of WW2 is Germany’s conquest of Denmark. It started at breakfast and the Germans were in Copenhagen for lunch. Some Danes did perish during the invasion…..in old folks’ homes. Something to keep in mind when looking at war statistics. Amazingly, people are dying all the time, even as we write….. and not being gassed to death.
        One seldom-quoted statistic is that more people died on the roads of Britain during WW2 than died in the much-hyped London Blitz.
        Makes you think doesn’t it? Well, it makes me think.

        • Son_of_Casandra

          And how many people died in those ‘holiday’ camps the Germans built across Germany and Eastern Europe in WWII?

        • Cadwan

          “One of my favourite campaigns of WW2 is Germany’s conquest of Denmark. It started at breakfast and the Germans were in Copenhagen for lunch.”

          I thought you didn’t like people walking all over you? Seems like you are advocating it here!

          • Father Todd Unctious

            Not a campaign ,an occupation. The German Navy went straight to Copenhagen and disembarked troops. The whole fiasco lasted about three hours before the Danes allowed the takeover. Only Jutland was controlled by the Hun. The Faroes and Iceland went to the UK and Greenland to the USA.
            Only about 20 Danes died on the day of occupation. Sadly during the war far more Danes died fighting with the Nazis than against them.

          • Cadwan

            Just over 3,000 Danes died as a direct result of the occupation. (A further 4,000 Danish volunteers died fighting in the German army on the Eastern Front while 1,072 merchant sailors died in Allied service.

            This equates with more Danes dying for the Allies than the Nazis.

            As with the Faroe Islands, the United Kingdom occupied Iceland (to pre-empt a German occupation) but later turned it over to the United States, before that country entered the war in 1941.

            Iceland and the Faroes were occupied, they didn’t have much choice in the matter, another bloodless coup that our Scottish friend so much admires.

          • AWoLsco

            “This equates with more Danes dying for the Allies than the Nazis.”

            Well that makes everything all tickety-boo then. The Danes will be pleased, and doubtless relieved to hear that. Best to be on the winning side. You know it makes sense.

            Sadly, no great heroics from the Danes. No last stands and fighting to the last man. No, none of that malarky….not like our valiant English commentator. He specialises not so much in retreats, but rather the more euphemistic ‘strategic withdrawals’. Great wordsmith is our English commentator. Not much good with a gun but a master of words and self-delusion.

            “Iceland and the Faroes were occupied, they didn’t have much choice in the matter, another bloodless coup”

            Aw shucks! Ain’t that ever so cute. They ‘liberated’ Iceland and the Faroes, then the dumbos handed them back…and then ended up fighting them in a Cod War in the seventies.
            I must say, even if they are the most politically-inept buffoons, the English do provide a lot of laughs.

            As for commercial acumen…..did you know that the twits turned down the opportunity to take over the VW factory after the war?
            I’m not making this up. They said the cars wouldn’t sell.
            That’s not the end of the story…..BMW, Bayerische Maschinen Werke or whatever it is, now own, and make, the iconic Mini( designed by a Greek) and the swanky, quintessentially-English, toffee -nosed Rolls- Royce….the antithesis of the Volkswagen….the people’s car, partly designed by Adolf Hitler himself.
            You couldn’t make it up…..yet many foreigners question my sanity when I advocate Scottish independence.
            Honestly, I ask you…..Who in their right mind wants to be allied to such a shower of amiable, but thick, buffoons?

          • Cadwan

            “not like o ur valiant English commentator. He specialises not so much in retreats but rather the more euphemistic ‘strategic withdrawals'”

            When all else fails we can always sacrifice a couple of Highland regiments. Great chaps, we couldn’t have conquered our Empire without them. What did the Germans call them “poison dwarves”?

            “They ‘liberated’ Iceland and the Faroes,”

            No we didn’t. We occupied them, there is a difference.

            “the people’s car, partly designed by Adolf Hitler himself.”

            No wonder it looked so awful.

            “.Who in their right mind wants to be allied to such a shower of amiable, but thick, buffoons?”

            The Scots, Welsh and Irish?

          • Father Todd Unctious

            850 members of the resistance and 1900 Free Danish soldiers and sailors died for the allied cause. About 900 civilians died in air raids etc. While over 4,000 died fighting for the Nazis. 40,000 were arrested as collaborators after the war.
            It took only 3 weeks for 6,000 Danes to volunteer to fight for the Nazis.

          • Cadwan

            You must have a different source for your figures than me but they sound about right.

            Was that 6000 volunteered and 4000 died? Just shows, never volunteer for anything in the army! The Germans must have laughed their heads off as they shoved them in the front lines.

          • Father Todd Unctious

            6,000 volunteered in 3 weeks , tens of thousands volunteered by 1944.

          • Cadwan

            Well they certainly paid in blood for their wrong choice but I suppose the British seemed a worse choice at the time. We didn’t seem to have much chance of winning, thank heavens for the Japanese! Pearl Harbor was a godsend.

          • Father Todd Unctious

            There was never a chance that Britain would lose WW2. With or without the Yanks we utterly pulverised Germany dropping 20 times as much ordnance on them as they did on us. Our Navy was vastly superior too in tonnage, in capital ships in aircraft carriers, in strategic ports. No Britain was a much better bet for Denmark just as it was for Norway.

          • Cadwan

            Much as it pains me to say it, we wouldn’t have won without the US. It was the turning point for us when Hitler declared war on them after Pearl Harbor. We may have made many mistakes in the war but the Germans and Japanese made more.

          • Father Todd Unctious

            I disagree. It would have taken a bit longer but Germany was on the ropes from 1942, with or without the effort of the USA.
            Britain did more bombing than the US. Britain and Russia defeated the Axis. Don’t let Hollywood kid you otherwise.

          • Cadwan

            I lived in a pub in Havant during the war and I remember the troops coming into the bar after Dunkirk. I was only seven years old but I could see they were defeated and demoralised. My parents were convinced that the Germans were only a few days behind them. It was only the RAF in the Battle of Britain that saved us. If Hitler had kept up the attacks on the airfields rather than switching to the cities after Churchill’s provocation we would have lost. Hitler again made a mistake by attacking Russia and this relieved the pressure on us. We could have kept going and avoided defeat but we didn’t have the resources to mount a D Day type invasion and defeat the Germans on their own ground without the US.

            With US help we turned the tide in N. Africa, attacked through Italy and southern France and won the Battle of the Atlantic. We couldn’t have done it without them. You are living in cloud cuckoo land if you believe otherwise and I am not a fan of the US and take Hollywood films with a very large dose of salt.

          • Father Todd Unctious

            Well that is the story you were told at the time. The reality is the Germans could never invade. The Royal Navy was too powerful. We outgunned and outspent them from 1941 onwards and by 1943 were dropping 40 times as much ordnance on them as they did on us.
            D Day was the start of the Cold War. It was about getting to Berlin before the Russians. By 1943 Russia and Britain were winning the war and the US in Europe was a welcome assistance ,but not essential.

          • Cadwan

            “The Royal Navy was too powerful.”

            The sinking of Prince of Wales and Repulse by Japanese bombers showed the vulnerability of the Royal Navy to air attack. It would have been suicidal to expose them to German bombers in the channel, that is why they were based in Scapa Flow.

            On the other hand Vice Admiral Otto Ciliax, whose flagship was the Scharnhorst, sailed two battleships and a heavy cruiser, escorted by six destroyers, 14 torpedo boats, and 26 E-boats, out of Brest late on the night of February 11th, 1942 right through the channel to their home ports under the nose of the Royal Navy.

            As Churchill said after the second Battle of Alamein at the end of 1942:

            “Before Alamein we never had a victory, after Alamein we never had a defeat”

            The US had been in the war for nearly a year by then and its presence was already having an effect. You underrate the effect on resources and morale of having them on our side. After Pearl Harbor the fate of Germany and Japan was sealed, they could never win against the combined might of the US and the British Empire.

          • Father Todd Unctious

            Funny how the Channel dash ( retreat) involved 2 of Germany’s 3 Battleships at a time when Britain had 20 Battleships. Plus 90 Cruisers to Germany’s 11 and12 Aircraft carriers to Germany’s none. Why would we stop them retreating home to Germany out of harm’s way?

          • Cadwan

            We did our best to stop them and failed. As it turned out their dash was in vain, they took no further part in the war.

            Do you honestly believe that we could have opened a second front against Germany without the help and resources of the US? Stalin had been requesting a second front for a long time and was able to step up his onslaught after D Day. The best we could have hoped for without US help was for the USSR to overrun the whole of Europe and eventually threaten Britain itself. Is that the outcome you desired?

          • Father Todd Unctious

            Quantity of bombs dropped on UK by the Hun 1940 to 45 = 75,000 tons
            Quantity of bombs dropped on Germany by the RAF 1940 to 45 = 1,200,000 tons, or 16 times as much. This was also 40% more than the US managed. In Western Europe we carried more than 60% of the War effort.

          • Cadwan

            The RAF bombed at night so their accuracy suffered despite aids such as H2S. They needed protection by long range fighters like the P-51 Mustang. They vastly exceeded the German bombing because that virtually ceased in the latter stage of the war and was replaced by the V1 and V2.

            Our efforts during the campaign after D Day left much to be desired, Monty’s Arnhem fiasco is an example. The US drive under Generals like Patton were more effective. The CinC was an American (Eisenhower) and they had far more troops in the field than us.

            I don’t want to exaggerate the US effort but I don’t think it should be disparaged either. We might not have lost the war but we couldn’t have won it without them.

          • Tamerlane

            Nonsense.

          • Father Todd Unctious

            You suggest Norway and Denmark were better off joining that Third Reich you so admire and regularly defend.
            Appalling and tasteless as you are, aplogist for wartime Germany is very low indeed.

          • Tamerlane

            ‘It took only 3 weeks for 6,000 Danes to volunteer to fight for the Nazis’
            Another example of your inability to determine the merits of information versus knowledge.
            Why did they join? What other factors were at work? Hunger, good pay, fear? What is the context in which this happened? What proportion of Danes were of German blood back then as opposed to now? Were the volunteers Danes from the north or largely from border areas with Schleswig-Holstein and thus effectively German anyhow? You haven’t a but because have no knowledge, only information.
            You got an education late, no doubt about it, like the fatties who take up sport in middle age it was too late to do anything productive with it – the core fitness and skills will and can never be there.

          • AWoLsco

            “Seems like you are advocating it here!”

            No. I just find it ironic that the world and its wife gets on its high horse, tut-tutting and prophesying doom and disaster when Scotland’s desire for independence is mentioned……yet no one questions for a second, the independence of little defenceless Denmark.

            I’ve always wondered what the Danish reaction would be if someone suggested their armed forces were dissolved, their parliament was closed and their representatives expected to commute back and forth to Berlin.
            In fact, after your many anti-Scottish tirades, I am surprised you have not suggested that the Danes see sense and merge with their bigger more powerful neighbour. You could even offer them some incentive, say lifelong, guaranteed membership of the EU.

          • Cadwan

            “prophesying doom and disaster when Scotland’s desire for independence is mentioned.”

            If it wasn’t for the fact that I have relations in Scotland I would say, go and the best of luck. Fortunately my relations have more sense than you and are firmly against breaking with the union. If you had another referendum now it wouldn’t be 45-55%, it would be 95-5% against leaving. Weren’t you lucky!

          • AWoLsco

            “it would be 95-5% against leaving.”

            A prediction somewhat at odds with the massive support for the SNP.

            Anglophile tories were always an endangered species, north of the border, but now the same has happened to those representatives of the hardy sons of toil, the labour party. Their extinction looks imminent.

            Meanwhile, giant pandas seem to be doing quite well in comparison.
            In Scottish politics, they could be a force to be reckoned with in the near future….Certainly of more interest and generating more useful policies than the yesterday’s men and dead-beats of the antiquated, corrupt Anglophile parties.

          • Cadwan

            “A prediction somewhat at odds with the massive support for the SNP.”

            Support for the SNP is NOT the same as cutting your own throat by voting to leave the union. I notice that the SNP are keeping very quiet about supporting another referendum.

          • AWoLsco

            “I notice that the SNP are keeping very quiet about supporting another referendum.”

            Yes, I noticed that too….and so have a lot of TRUE Scots.
            I suspect Jim Sillars was right when he said Scotland has been infiltrated with MI5 agents and sleepers, and English settlers…typically retired military types…..and just look at our universities….
            There, the new game in town is ‘Spot the Scotsman’ They’re becoming rarer than hens’ teeth.
            It’s Quebec all over again.
            Unfortunately 95% of Scots don’t know the meaning of the word…’subversion’….and don’t want to…..and they will pay the price….
            …..The death of Scotland….clever Scots, out. English cast-offs, dead-beats and third-raters, in.

          • Cadwan

            “I suspect Jim Sillars was right when he said Scotland has been infiltrated with MI5 agents and sleepers, and English settlers…typically retired military types…..and just look at our universities….”

            So the SNP are not supporting another referendum because Scotland has been infiltrated by the English?

            Just keep taking the tablets, they may have been made in Britain (or China) but we have your best interests at heart.

          • AWoLsco

            “Just keep taking the tablets,”

            I don’t take any tablets of any kind…..despite the fact they are free. Perhaps I should try them, after all I’ve paid for them.
            I think i’ll have a 10 bob cigarette instead, 90% of the cost of which is tax….another great English health-fascist tax swindle.
            Still, I suppose somebody’s got to keep the country on its feet.
            The question though, is, which country should I support, Scotland or England or both together?
            Which one do you support, really, truly, honestly and genuinely, deep down in your heart of hearts?

          • Cadwan

            “Which one do you support”

            I am a great admirer of the Scots, despite the more extreme examples who are determined to drag their country down. The English are “lions led by donkeys”, it’s amazing that we are still here.

          • AWoLsco

            “The English are “lions led by donkeys”, it’s amazing that we are still here.”

            I couldn’t agree with you more on that point.
            I spent most of my working life in England and I have to say the most impressive individuals and high-achievers in many different spheres I met, were English.
            However there were a few things I found that really grated on a Scot’s sensibilities….a cowed, slavish, servility, a tolerance born of ignorance, and a lack of nationalism and pride….a nation of specialists.
            The scientists knew little of the arts and humanities and the arty types knew next to nothing of science and technology…an alien world to them, inhabited by boffins fiddling with their widgets and gadgets.
            However one shouldn’t be too surprised by this.
            Universal education came very late to England and so although it doesn’t look it on the surface, there is still something of the primaeval serf- peasant mentality about the country.

            No. There are still differences between the countries but they are becoming less and less.
            Sadly, both England and Scotland are dying.
            Scotland still has some chance of resuscitation, because Scots are still quite nationalistic and proud of their country.
            England, however….I see little hope and see it heading to the dustbin of history.

          • Cadwan

            Thank you for those kind words about the English, bit unexpected but with a barb in the tail. I agree, some are still cowed and servile but they are fast becoming the minority. Most are like me, arrogant, outspoken and have a hearty dislike for the upper class (and middle class who revere the upper class). We are very nationalistic and generally despise politicians. We don’t hate the Scots as much as the Scots hate the English. Is that a fair summary?

            We have a hard time ahead of us because of our enormous debts. Despite Osborne’s words we are not reducing our annual budget deficit which merely adds to our National Debt. The interest charges on this will soon exceed the taxation we can raise and a real crisis will result. We have the advantage of our own currency so we can resort to printing money in the short term but this is not a long term fix. I’m glad I am coming to the end of my life, I fear for my grandchildren (and the coming great grandchild).

          • AWoLsco

            “Is that a fair summary?”

            Broadly speaking, yes, but with some reservations too pernickety to mention here except this myth about hatred….a much misused and little understood word these days. There are disagreements and differences of opinion and misinterpretation of events on both sides of the border.

            “We don’t hate the Scots as much as the Scots hate the English.”

            True. That’s simply because Scotland barely registers in the English psyche, whereas England.looms large over Scotland, dominating her, economically, politically and culturally. It is not the average everyday Englishman that desires this, and any hatred and spite directed at him is wasted effort, for he doesn’t control the levers of power…… but their ruling class does, and has done so, and, so far, continues to do so, rather skilfully let it be said, for the last one thousand years,
            Rather than confront the utterly daunting task of trying to change this deeply entrenched system in England, it is much simpler to hive off the modest 5million Scots into a separate state and alter that, from within, according to our very own whim and notion.

            Now do you see the aim of Scottish nationalism? The purpose is to eliminate dependency on England and regain our own pride and self-respect, maintain and promote our own languages and make a living for ourselves by our own efforts and once again regain the pride and self-satisfaction that comes from honest toil and effort.
            If you feel the same about England as I do about Scotland, then I wish you well and you can count on my, and hopefully all Scotland’s support.
            As a businessman, my operating philosophy was…my clients’ and neighbours’ prosperity is my prosperity.
            Even though Scotland may become independent, one day, it is something which, I believe( despite my continual bleating for the return of the Scottish armed forces), should be the guiding principal of ALL, in those islands of ours.
            Scotland and England WILL come together again ….but in a different way.

            The present arrangement is unsatisfactory and cannot continue.

          • Chas Grant

            Now that is a good question! I would like to be able to say that I support Britain, but to be perfectly honest my answer is Scotland.

          • Chas Grant

            English cast-offs, dead-beats and third-raters, in.

            Or “white settlers” as we used to call them up here. And still do!

          • AWoLsco

            “white settlers” as we used to call them up here”.

            White settlers is too much of a euphemism. Call them what they are….the junk, rejects, shamed sexual perverts and incompetent discards of England. They used to go ‘abroad’. Now they get sent to Scotland and get paid to keep an eye on the place and pose as false nationalists.

          • Chas Grant

            Modern-day remittance men!

          • AWoLsco

            Aye.Thanks for that. I had to look up what a remittance man was. Hurrah for computers. They have their uses after all.
            Old Chinese proverb….
            “He who asks a question is a fool for five minutes.
            He who never asks a question, is always a fool.”
            addendum…..He who has computer is only fool for one minute.

          • Cadwan

            I can’t follow your remarks about Denmark, first you applaud the bloodless German victory due to the Danes not fighting back, next you suggest that the Danes strengthen their armed forces. Do you ever follow a consistent line of argument or is it beyond you?

          • AWoLsco

            “first you applaud the bloodless German victory due to the Danes not fighting back,”

            I wasn’t applauding them. I just found it quirky, bizarre and entertaining,( because so few got killed) ……that a country, even a small one, could be invaded and brought under control in a morning.

            I hoped some fellow Scots might read this and pause for reflection…..because, right now, England, the Eurogendarmerie or whoever else, could do just the very same thing to stupid little Scotland, …….so fond, on a Setterday nicht of drowning itself in alcohol, regaling all within earshot of its proud martial story……which lies in the past.

            Nowadays, the deadbeats hardly know one end of a rifle from the other, but obsess all the time about schools, hospitals, women’s rights and old folks about to pop their clogs….and other such jessie nonsense.

          • Cadwan

            “but obsess all the time about schools, hospitals, women’s rights and old folks about to pop their clogs….and other such jessie nonsense.”

            Close the schools and hospitals, abolish womans rights and gas the old folks. I bet your fellow Scots just love your view of a Utopian Scotland!

          • AWoLsco

            “I bet your fellow Scots just love your view of a Utopian Scotland!”

            Unfortunately, they don’t like it one little bit…..but that’s the way many children react when they’ve got to get on their bikes and go out into the harsh, cold world and make a living for themselves.

            Without a competent army, navy and airforce an independent Scotland will simply be blackmailed….and that’s not independence.
            I don’t recall William Wallace or Robert the Bruce, or even Edward Longshanks having much to say about the provision of free zimmer frames, colostomy bags and incontinence pads. Do you?

          • Watt

            The English are much keener on Scottish independence than the Scots themselves.

          • AWoLsco

            “The English are much keener on Scottish independence”

            Not Mr Cameron, your big white chief.
            The poor blighter was in tears at the prospect of Scotland leaving.
            Ever thought of choosing a more emotionally stable leader?

        • Father Todd Unctious

          Yes, a good point. 18,000 Londoners dead in the Blitz and 45,000 road deaths in WW2. Total civilian deaths were howe ver 67,000. Interestingly road deaths halved between 1940 and 1946. Due to petrol rationing.

          • AWoLsco

            “Interestingly road deaths halved between 1940 and 1946. Due to petrol rationing.”

            So, all in all, the war wasn’t as bad as is made out, because people were going to die on the roads anyway.
            In fact, are you not arguing that war could be seen as beneficial in some ways from a health and safety viewpoint?…ie depriving the oiks, chavs and commoners of petrol for their horseless carriages, thus preventing them from killing themselves.
            Really, we should be grateful to the Germans for retaliating to our bombing their civilian establishments….and not berating or despising them.

          • Father Todd Unctious

            I am not arguing anything. I am stating facts and concurring with your comment. War causes serious disruption and can have perverse, even benign ,effects. Road deaths were a largely ignored area until the 1980s. Killing 450,000 Britons between 1920 and 1980.

          • Tamerlane

            You are stating statistics, not facts.

          • Father Todd Unctious

            …….and you have nothing to add as usual.
            Unless there is a chance for a limp insult you are fairly well lost aren’t you Tammy?

  • Jackthesmilingblack

    At the University of Leicester, some 98% of those engaged in post graduate studies are Chinese. Good luck to them, if the indigenous rifraf are too thick, lazy and unmotivated. But get this, HMG force said Chinese to leave the country as soon as they graduate, rather than capitalising on the investment.

    Jack, the Japan Alps Brit

    • EUSSR 4 All!

      More attention-seeking copied-and-pasted repetitive stupid nonsense from you …

    • Father Todd Unctious

      Rubbish. Leicester has 7,000 Postgrads and no way are there 6,860 Chinese there.

      • EUSSR 4 All!

        And I thought he has always claimed that he has been living in Japan since the year 1972 or some other nonsense he spouts!

    • Aberrant_Apostrophe

      I used to go to Leicester University for meetings three or four times a year, and I’m sure I would have noticed having to pass through throngs of Chinese students- the odd half a dozen or so perhaps, but certainly not in the numbers you suggest.

      • Jackthesmilingblack

        My source, Professor Emeritus at the University of Leicester in February.
        Your source, casual observation.
        Let’s call it a draw, shall we!

        • EUSSR 4 All!

          A professor emeritus is a RETIRED professor, dear boy!

      • EUSSR 4 All!

        The man is a hopeless old fantasist, banned from even the Daily Mail! … And there is just one Uni in Leicester, I am sure!

  • Callumity

    Having lived there for quite a few years I had much time for the Germans but their sense of humour is slapstick more than self aware. Now the Dutch….. We have swathes more in common with them…..including a certain scepticism about German cant and ‘altruism’.

    • Father Todd Unctious

      But then the Dutch did a reverse takeover of England in 1690.

    • post_x_it

      Depends where you are. The Bavarian sense of humour is subtle, witty, self-deprecating and very, very funny. Go and see Gerhard Polt if you ever get the chance.
      The Prussian/northern German sense of humour fits your description. The Cologne Carneval type of humour is just excruciating.

  • John

    we may have SOME similarities with Germany,but we certainly do not have their ARROGANCE, I WILL BE VOTING OUT,Germany will eventually take over as master of Europe.that has always been their desire,just look back at their history over TWO WORLD WARS.and I am sure they have never given up that desire,we have been taken for mugs for far too long by all of the European countries,and now is the time to look towards a free future, I do not wish to become dictated to from a Federalist Europe,

    • What? The British lack arrogance? Ha ha ha – that was funny.

      • HJ777

        Laughing fool.

        • AWoLsco

          I thought it was pretty funny too.
          I love the way British and English get swapped around with gay abandon.
          When heroics and adulation are on display we’re all terribly, terribly, frightfully English, but when cruelty, exploitation, corruption( especially sexual perversion) are on the agenda, then we all become ‘ the British’….or even worse….’Brits’….which unfortunately rhymes all too easily with…..sh-ts.

          • HJ777

            You clearly have very strange ideas informed only by your own prejudice.

          • Watt

            You are beguiled by the nonsense in your head.

        • I am BRITISH AND PROUD AND WE ARE RIGHTLY ARROGANT.

    • Rodney King

      Knowing you are more productive and more balanced and have a better welfare system and a more equal society is not arrogance. It is simply recognizing the truth. Something Britain still struggles to do. Accept the truth and accept they no longer have a right to dominate Europe. The two Wars in the main were caused by Britain and France wanting to stop Germany from achieving its true position as the leading nation of Western Europe. Just remember in 1870 France unprovoked attacked the Prussian States for this very reason and suffered a humiliating defeat. WW1 only 40 years later in most ways was none of the business of Britain or France but both rushed into it. France trying to avenge there defeat in 1870. Britain jumping at the chance to put Germany down. That War was the business of Austria/Germany and Serbia/Russia. Britain and France had no place in it. Then as a result of the unjust Armistice after WW1 the German people starving and desperate turned to Hitler. Everything has a cause and effect.

      • HJ777

        “WW1 only 40 years later in most ways was none of the business of Britain or France but both rushed into it. France trying to avenge there defeat in 1870. Britain jumping at the chance to put Germany down. That War was the business of Austria/Germany and Serbia/Russia. Britain and France had no place in it.”

        You really are totally ignorant of the events leading up to WW1, aren’t you?

        Both Britain and France were very reluctantly dragged into WW1. The French certainly did absolutely nothing to provoke it – they were an entirely innocent party. and were horrified by events and were on the receiving end of an outrageous German ultimatum. Britain did everything it could to try to offer mediation and negotiation – but deliberate (and well documented) German duplicity disguised Germany’s true intentions. The German government/military did everything they could to avoid negotiations and mediation.

        • Father Todd Unctious

          Correct. The Germans kindled WW1.

      • antoncheckout

        It’s seventy years since that crazily distorted view of history was last taught in Germany. After the historical research of historians such as Fischer and Mommsen, the Germans are properly enlightened about WWI. As for Hitler’s attempt at European subjugation in WW2 being caused by “Britain and France wanting to stop Germany from achieving its true position as the leading nation of Western Europe” – the vast Germans would find that view insane.
        I feel I need to mention that, as your posts might lead more innocent readers to imagine that Germans somehow believe your nonsense. On the contrary, they reject it.

      • norman’s nonsense

        Muppet!

    • Gary Fearon

      Constantly using capitals is rather like going up to someone’s face and shouting. Not a pleasant trait. PS If you vote out you are a fool following billionaires who want us out for one reason…so they can make even more money.

      • oversixty

        There must be lot more fools staying in with all the scaremongering.

      • njt55

        Unlike those lovely altruistic billionaires and mega-corporations who want us to remain for the good of humanity.

    • oversixty

      Well put.

    • itsthepatriarchy

      I think its safe to say that the rich will take over. They already have… And the public will be under the control of Sharia.

  • Patrick_Blankfein

    The Germans re-invented the caste system and put themselves at the top. Us Anglos were, condescendingly accorded a place the table; Churchill and Bomber Harris had something to say about that!

    • Rodney King

      There are a few differences between German Culture and English Culture.
      Germans overall judge people on what they achieve and how they contribute to society. They don’t have a hidden “cast” system like Britain still has. [Mainly the English.]
      The English as a result look up to position. What the person achieves is of little consequence.
      In the area of religion Germans are not really Protestant. They are Catholic. Even the Lutheran faith is basically still a Catholic faith. Germans overall are more straight up. Ask them what they think and they will tell you what they think. Not tell you what you want to hear. Also Germans know overall they are superior in terms of “work ethic.” After all that is how they judge people. By what they contribute to society.

      • Patrick_Blankfein

        Haven’t you read about what happened 80yrs ago? I was just reading about it today. To say that the Germans re-invented the caste system (cast with an E) is perfectly correct of the day (and I hold no grudge against them now). Germans love being German, and being ‘Blonde’ is part of that. We will see this played out again ad history repeats itself like a bad weiner.

        • guffawing

          ‘Germans love being German, and being ‘Blonde’ is part of that…’

          A total of (at least) 11 of the 23-strong German football squad have family backgrounds from the rest of the world. Just like the French and the English … and a few more.

        • IlikeBrits

          LOL,… the blondes are our Poles!

      • Watt

        “Also Germans know overall they are superior in terms of “work ethic.” After all that is how they judge people. By what they contribute to society.”

        “Also Germans know overall they are superior . . .” if you had ended your sentence there you would have had it about right. Frau Merkel has a good work ethic. In terms of her contribution to society though, don’t ask the maidens of Cologne.

    • AWoLsco

      “Us Anglos”

      I’m not an Anglo. It says ‘British’ on my passport, adorned with kabbalistic, masonic five pointed stars, twelve of the blighters, or am I mixing it up with that other certificate of the right to exist?….my driving licence.

  • justejudexultionis

    Dear friends,

    There is a more pressing issue and I urge you all to take action to prevent this continent from distintegrating entirely under the pressure of uncontrolled (mainly Islamic) mass immigration. Further evidence of that disintegration is provided in the following video of a riot that took place very recently in Paris between various immigrant rocket scientists and brain surgeons:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PFSugr_q07o

    This is surely only a foretaste of what is to come unless we act decisively to save our culture, civilisation and fundamental freedoms from the Islamic mob.

    • David Prentice

      I think it’s too late for Paris and London, my friend. I could cry when I see what the liberal metropolitan elite has done to these once great cities. Throwing open the city gates to the Muslim hordes has been a mistake of historic, epic proportions. I hope there’s still enough fire left in the civic belly to breathe life into words like treason and revolution.

  • Aberrant_Apostrophe

    I saw an interesting graph in the Grauniad (of all places) the other day, showing the declining influence the UK has in the EU as it has expanded from the six nations when Britain joined to the current 28 state monster. The fall appears to be significantly faster than that which could be explained by a simple pro-rata model. The obvious conclusion to draw is that the cause is the fact that recent joiners have been net takers, and thus skewing legislation towards favouring the poorer nations.

  • itsthepatriarchy

    um, yeah… except the Germans have no intention of sharing power with the U.K.

    • IlikeBrits

      … we would surely agree to Anglo-German-Confederation, because German-Anglo-Confederation would sound weird. You could keep the nukes and ships etc. also. 😉 What do you want more? 😉

  • Julian

    Speak for yourself – I am Welsh of Celtic lineage with no Saesneg (Saxon – English – Sassanach in Scottish gaelic) ancestry meaning I am British descended from the original Britons.

    As for the English they are a Mongrel Race comprising an admixture of the original Celtic Britons who invited Angles and Jutes from Denmark and Saxons from Germany originally invited in as military settlers to help fight off Pict and Scot invaders BUT who became a military ruling class forming the kingdoms that we now know as the Anglo-Saxon Kingdoms of Anglo-Saxon England – The Angles in Mercia, Northumbria and East Anglia, The Jutes in Kent and the Saxons in Wessex with the name England deriving from the designation Angle Land BUT the peoples were called Saxons (Welsh Saesneg or Scottish Gaelic Sassanach) by the Britons Welsh tribes.

    As if that wasn’t enough there was the invasion and settlement of the Northmen – Firstly by the Vikings and Danes from Norway and Demark conquering all the Anglo-Saxon kingdoms apart from Wessex and almost conquering Wessex. The Peace Treaty with Alfred the Great recognised Danelaw as that part of England north of the line running from London to Chester ruled by the Northmen. The Vikings and Danes ruling Danelaw established the 6 fortified Burghs (Boroughs or cities) of Danelaw; Jorvic (York). Lincoln, Derby, Nottingham, Stanford and Nottingham (sometimes known as York and the 5 Viking Burghs) to defend Danelaw from the Anglo-Saxons in Wessex. Derby, like all place names ending in ‘by’ was founded by Vikings and Danes.

    Later England was unified as an Anglo-Danish Kingdom ruled by Canute, King of the Danes before being ruled by Anglo-Saxons again before being conquered again by the Northmen of Normandy – The descendants of the Viking invaders of France who ruled the Dukedom of Normandy in a similar peace deal between the French and the Vikings similar to the one in England that recognised the Viking rule of Danelaw.

    The Norman invasion of England established the Anglo-Norman kingdom of England with the ruling class eventually becoming less French and more English

    The German Connection is that of our Royal family and starts in 1714 with the election of George the Elector of Hanover as George the First, King of England because under the !701 Act of Settlement only a Protestant could rule as King. When William III and his daughter Anne died George the First became the legitimate heir through his Grandmother the Electress Sophia of Hanover even though there were 50 Catholics with a better claim.

    The current royal family has rule since 1714 – First as the House of Hanover until 1840 when Queen Victoria married her cousin, Prince Albert of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha when the Royal Family became the House of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha until 1917 when as a result of German unpopularity during the First World War 1 when through Royal Decree by George V it became The House of Windsor.
    Our heritage as an Island nation is the sea looking out to the world as a trading nation maintain the balance of power in Europe preventing one country ruling in mainland Europe – Until 1871 the threat was France with Austria and Holland being our main allies with Prussia becoming increasingly important until 1904 when the Entente Cordiale was signed between France and Britain to contain Germany as a result of Germany building a Blue Water Fleet and becoming a greater threat to Britain and British interests than France.
    Until the Unification of Germany on the 18th of January, 1871, when the Princes of all the German states acclaimed Wilhelm 1 of Prussia as German Emperor, 1871, in the Hall of Mirrors of the Palace of Versaillies following the capitulation of France in the 1870/71 Franco-Prussian War.
    The unification of Germany under Prussia had been made possible by the defeat of Austria in the 1866 Austro-Prussian war because that war had effectively ended Austria’s leadership of Germany even though Austria held the title of Emperor of the Holy Roman Empire. The Franco-Prussian War of 1870 started because France wanted to prevent the Unification of Germany under Prussia because that would threated France position in Europe as the leading state.

    • AWoLsco

      …….meanwhile, unbeknown to many English /Welsh ignoramuses an entire self-governing nation, probably the world’s greatest secret,and one of it’s oldest ‘nations’, lay to the north of this mythical centre of the universe called Angleland and it was called Scotland….and believe it or not, it still exists…..just….. a strange little country that in the opinions of many over the centuries, millennia even, ought not to have existed at all…..but , despite the odds, it does,
      The Romans came and tried to own it…but were unsuccessful.
      Then came the vikings, but they got out-vikinged.
      Then came the English and their hired thugs. They were sent packing…They don’t like to talk about that….which is why Scotland’s true story remains the world’s best kept secret…..and what a story it is….a story of ripping yarns and extraordinary adventures that will take you from the Arctic to the Antarctic, to San Francisco in the west, to Sakhalin Island in Siberia in the east…….
      …….and God willing, it’s story is not finished.

      • Julian

        It is obviously you who is totally ignorant of the origins of modern Scotland formed by the migrations of the Dark Ages (500AD to 1000AD) following the withdrawal of Roman Troops from Britain and the fall of the Western Roman Empire – A period also known as the Early Medieval Period and the mongrel nature of Scottish people or even the fact Scotland is named after the Scotti migrants from Ireland !!!!!

        When the Rome abandoned the Roman province of Britannia the 3 ethnic groupings were the Scots (the Celtic Gaels of Ireland and the Western isles), the Picts of Pictland) in the Highlands and northern islands of modern Scotland and the Britons (Brythonic Celts living in what is now Wales, England and the lowlands of Scotland.

        Under pressure from the Gaels and Picts the Britons invited military settlers from the Angles and Jutes from what is Modern day Denmark and the Saxons from what is modern day Germany. The Angles settled along the coast from Edinburgh to East Anglia. the Jutes in Kent and the Saxons along the channel coast. From military settlers brought in to protect the Britons they became invaders pushing westward. Their name for the native Brythonic Celts of Britannia called Britons was the Anglo-Saxon word “wealisc” meaning a stranger or foreigner, and this was originally given as an ethnic name to the “natives” of the lands that were being conquered.

        The modern name of Wales and the Welsh derives from this word “wealisc”. In the case of the northern Britons of Cumbria and Lowland Scotland the Brythonic British resisting the Angle invaders creating the Anglo-Saxon kingdom of Northumbria were known as the Strathclyde Welsh!!!!!!

        By the 5th century, the Gaelic kingdom of Dál Riata had emerged from Ulster, overtaking parts of western Scotland. The Gaelic kingdom of Dál Riata gradually pushed back the Picts and eventually took over the Pictish Kingdom to form the Kingdom of Alba in the ninth century AD.

        The Norse invasions of Anglo-Saxon England destroyed the Anglo-saxon kingdom of Northumbria allowing the kingdom of Alba to spread into the lowlands formerly forming part of the Anglo-Saxon kingdom of Northumbria whilst the conquest of the Strathclyde Welsh between 1018 and 1054 weakened by the attacks from the Dublin Vikings allowed the Gaelic Kingdom of Alba to eventually form the borders and concept of modern day Scotland with the name based on the name of the Scotti tribe of Gaels that migrated from Ulster in the dark ages!!!!

        In addition to the conquest of the Picts in the Highlands and Strathclyde Welsh and Anglo-Saxons of Lowland Scotland the Northern islands and the northeast and east of the Pictish Highlands were conquered by the Norse which weakened the Picts enabling their conquest by the Gaels of Dál Riata to create the Kingdom of Alba.

        On a personal note showing even further the mongrel nature of Scotland – Whilst I regard myself as Welsh, my mother was a South African whose parents were highlanders of Clan Gunn who migrated to South Africa in the service of the Crown. My Grandfather fought in the Boer War and commanded a Regiment of the Kings African Rifles recruited from Zulus that fought the Germans under Lettow Von Vorbeck during World War I

        Clan Gunn was formed from settlers migrating from Norway led by Sweyn Asleifsson, the so-called ‘Ultimate Viking’, the progenitor of the clan which was named after his grandson Gunni – the “namefather” of Clan Gunn.

        I am not sure whether Sweyn Asleifsson and his grandson Gunni came directly from Norway or via Norwegian Orkney but they seem to have been blood relations of the then Norwegian Jarl of Orkney – The original Earls of Orkney.

        Scotland therefore has an even wider ethnic mix than England with the lowlands having the same basic ethnic mix of England (Brythonic Celt, Angles and Norse to which Irish Gael has been added in the west) whilst the Highland mix is Irish Gael, Pict and Norse Viking!!!!!

        It is Ironic and somewhat amusing that the Ulster Protestants so keen on the Union of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland are the descendants of the Irish Gaels of thye Scotti tribe who emigrated to Scotland in the dark ages to form the ancient Kingdom of Dál Riata and conquered the Picts to form the Kingdom of Alba which went on to form the Kingdom of Scotland.
        It is also why Scotland has ancient ethnic rivalries in western lowland Scotland that form the basis of the Glasgow Rangers and Celtic football team rivalries and clan rivalries throughout highland history – Rivalries why Clan Gunn would not support the Stuart claimants for the crown in the 18th century and, like many other clans, fought for the Crown against the Stuart pretenders and why one hears that the northern Isles (Orkney and the Shetlands) are more interested in independence from Edinburgh than the UK

        • AWoLsco

          Pure unadulterated Anglocentric twaddle.
          I can tell you why it’s twaddle……but the Spectator won’t let me.

        • Jacobi

          A very good account of what actually happened Julian in so far as we know. You did not mention Ystraclud and Gododdyn . Some of my family are of Lowland Scottish (and frequently army) background. I remember as a child how much they considered themselves different form other parts of Scotland. The Glaswegians for instance. But the greatest disdain was shown for the Teuchters. Now I had better not go further into that!

          • AWoLsco

            “as a child how much they considered themselves different form other parts of Scotland”

            That might have had a grain, but only a grain of truth to it 80-100yrs ago,and it was so, over large parts of Europe as well…..but things changed.
            ie the invention of radio, television, tarmacadam and horseless carriages, railways and steam and diesel -powered ferries.

            Do try to keep up!…..and…..bear in mind the very different geography, history and topography of Scotland compared to England.

          • Jacobi

            Well I wasn’t a child 80 years ago,. not that old!.
            And I can assure lots of my pals in the course of our Tuesday and Wednesday lunch sessions (hobby related by the way) have expressed reservations about Wiegies. The last man I referred to as a teuchter ( God rest him now! )threatened to punch me which suggested a certain sensitivity on his part, and that I wasn’t the first person who had called him that?

          • AWoLsco

            “have expressed reservations about Wiegies”

            So have I….and I’m one myself.
            As for teuchters. I only use the word if there are 5 lowlanders to one highlander or islander. If the numbers are reversed, I find I don’t use it so much. I’m a lowlander or sassenach.

            I can see the changes over the generations in Scotland.
            Grandmother was a kid when Queen Vic was on the throne and the Wright brothers hadn’t flown yet. She thought the English were the bee’s knees and absolutely loathed highlanders and above all Irish catholics.
            My father felt something the same but in a much milder fashion, mostly poking fun and making sarcastic remarks about them and although a Scottish nationalist, perversely, was also a great admirer of the English and particularly their great sense of humour. His views were obviously coloured by his wartime experiences.
            As for myself, having spent many holidays in the highlands and islands, I absolutely loved the place and the people, even learning something of the gaelic and learning to play the bagpipe.
            Same thing with Ireland. I deliberately took my first job in Eire because a) the money was great and b) I wanted to see if this prejudice against Irish catholics was justifiable and cutting a long story short, it wasn’t at all…because Eire had already begun the process of dismantling its powerful theocracy and embraced universal education.
            With that, all the ‘thick paddy’ jokes almost disappeared overnight.

            So there we are now. I’m a nationalist that is entirely pro- highland and pro irish and pro English. The English are unhateable. They are too kind, too generous and too humourous for that, but they are unknowing about Scotland and what it means to me to be a Scotsman …..and why I will under no circumstances, ever, speak with their accent or adopt their customs and religion.
            I have my own ways and am sticking with them. Not to do so, would make me feel permanently uncomfortable in my own skin.

          • Jacobi

            I hope you’ve realised that my comments are somewhat tongue in cheek but with a serious element. My daddy always said the true test was, did a man wear trews or short a coloured skirt when he did his stint. One uncle, wounded at Gallipoli and my favourite because he always gave me a Half Crown, was frowned on, honest, because he joined a kilted battalion of the you know whats.
            As for me I was born a Brit, of parents who were Brits, served ( NS ) in the British Army, worked for two large British companies, have a better half who is English and therefore Anglo/Scottish children and have every intention of dieing a Brit, if necessary as a foreigner in the land of my birth, a very common situation in Europe over the last two centuries.
            Orrabest!

          • AWoLsco

            Orra best tae you too, pal…or should I say, ‘jimmy’ for added authenticity,

          • Julian

            As you say – as best we know from the history of our islands with family histories adding ‘chrome’ in the form of local knowledge that historians usually ignore.
            My best friend is a Lowland Scot and has often said things about regional attitudes in Scotland and why his family left Scotland to leave behind.
            It is a truism that we have to know our past to learn from it so we understand the present and can shape the future.
            I should have added that the migrations varied – Danes were for loot, slaves and conquest because Denmark was agriculturally rich whilst the Vikings from Norway were land hungry because only the coastal strip was suitable for agriculture meaning they sought land to settle instead of starve in Norway, hence their settlement on the Isle of Man, Dublin, the Orkneys, Shetland and North East Scotland and why population growth there led to settlements in Iceland, Greenland and later the L’Anse Aux Meadows Viking settlement in Newfoundland and sagas defining other sites further south in Vinland, continental America, yet to be found.
            DNA testing in Iceland has shown that Iceland was settled 75% of males and 25% females of Norwegian descent and 25% of Men and 75% of Women of British origin with the surmise that the 25% of males from Britain were Thralls (slaves)and 75% of females were mainly wives of the Norwegian males who left Norway without wives!!!
            A TV documentary when DNA testing for heritage was established as a scientific technique did a DNA survey of islanders into the ethnic heritage of the Orkneys and/or Shetland proved their Norwegian heritage of the islanders proving the Norwegian settlers have remained and not evicted!!!!
            Elsewhere at the same time an academic from Tel Aviv university did a DNA survey of people living in Israel and upset the Zionist movement because he proved scientifically that the Palestinian arabs living in Israel were direct descendants of the Jews who lived in Israel at the time of Christ and hence the descendants of the people given Israel as the promised land in the Old Testament, thereby debunking the Zionist claim to the biblical land of Israel over the Palestinian Arabs living there. Logical because after the collapse of the Jewish revolt that ended with the siege of Masada the surviving Jewish rebels either went into hiding or fled Israel to avoid crucifiction whilst the bulk of the Jewish population hadn’t revolted and carried on as normal under the Romans with some becoming Christians – later, after the Arab conquest many were forcibly converted to Islam whilst the mountain dwelling Druze north of Israel remained Christian BUT pretended to be Moslem for their Arab rulers
            I also remember the Time Team on Cheddar Gorge where they excavated a skeleton from the ice age and extracted DNA and did a local DNA survey and were surprised to find that a teacher living in Cheddar was actually a direct descendant of the Cheddar Gorge man meaning his family had lived in Cheddar from 8000BC till when the program was made – That meant living through the roman conquest, the Saxons pushing westwards to create the kingdom of Wessex and the later Norman conquest proving that the conquered people remained in place as slaves under the Anglo-Saxons and later Norsemen and then medieval serfs working bonded to Norman Lords after the Norman Conquest with the Norman overlords becoming more anglicised over the generations until everyone was English in England
            The dark ages are also remembered in Cornwall by Cornishmen living in Cornwall in England. The southwest was as West Wales to the Anglo-Saxons with the west Welsh driven back into Cornwall before being conquered. Native Cornishmen still speak Cornish know as Cornwall by its Celtic name Kernow and want self rule/independence. Other rivalry from our history is the rivalry between Lancashire and Yorkshire dating back to the Wars of the Roses with the rivalry being fought out in the Roses Cricket match instead of Bill and Longbow on the battlefields of the 15th century!!
            I am sure the same happened in Scotland with the migrations and warfare overwhelming one side followed by subjugation and then merger with folk memories leading to local rivalries like the clan rivalries in the highlands

          • Jacobi

            What do you think of the recent idea that it was over population due to a much more benign climate, +3 C, which caused population expansion and therefore Norse eruption and invasion of southern lands and expansion into “Greenland”.
            As for Cornwall I know that type well having been associated with them at one point and they, a random trawl of Cornishmen that is, are quite distinct.
            Remember that the bulk of populations anywhere just carry on. The news of a raid in the x century would reach the next village a week or so later?
            Oddly enough, the remote hills I walked on with my pals in our youth, now swarming with joggers and cyclists, the Pentland Hills, some now claim are derived from to old Brythonic language, Penn Llan , or something, which mean the hills with the valley, and is an exact description of them?

          • IlikeBrits

            Guess you have a wrong understanding of DNA. May be you got R1a or so. it could happen that you meet a guy who also got R1a. That means you got the same male ancestor thousands of years ago. But this guy comes from Africa for example. Do you regad him as your tribes man? 😉 It could also happen that you are pale like the wall, got green eyes, red hair,… but got the Y DNA of a Roman auxiliary troop member from Nothern Africa 2000 years ago. … but you are pure Celtic. ;-). Same DNA does not mean that you need to look similar. … and different DNA could mean that you look very similar!

          • AWoLsco

            “overwhelming one side followed by subjugation and then merger”

            But not apparently…….and dreadfully conveniently, in Orkney and Shetland.
            No. No. No sign there of the dear old Picts, the original inhabitants. Every single manjack of them is a Norwegian Nog.

            Sometimes you do get the impression that somebody’s making all this up and getting the results from DNA testing(assumed to be 100% accurate, as though coming from God himself) that they want to get……. and keeping quiet about the many ones that are inconvenient….ie don’t fit the marxist narrative promulgated in our houses of indoctrination, mind-control and brainwashing…… known as universities

      • HJ777

        You really are quite deluded, aren’t you?

        SNP member, by any chance?

        • AWoLsco

          “SNP member, by any chance?”

          Supporter…… yes. Member…… no.
          Like Groucho Marx, I’d be suspicious and wary of any club that would willingly have me as a member.
          Even the masons never asked me to join them.
          I was probably written off as a hopelessly nationalistic, Christian basket case.

          • HJ777

            I don’t know which is more worrying – the kind of people who come up with obvious baloney like the SNP’s White Paper or the kind of people who are mug enough to believe it.

            My favourite bit of SNP nonsense was Alex Salmond’s saying that the rest of the UK would agree to a post-secession currency union because it was the “sovereign will of the Scottish people”, conveniently forgetting that the people of the rest of the UK would have a sovereign right not to agree to one.

          • AWoLsco

            “conveniently forgetting that the people of the rest of the UK would have a sovereign right not to agree to one.”

            So instead of letting independence proceed with minimal disruption on both sides of the border, like a spiteful little spoilt brat, you propose stirring things up.
            Well two can play at that game.
            Say ta ta to Faslane for a start and your aircaft carriers could be turned into useful scrap and used for the benefit of the Scottish navy.
            What do you think Scotland really needs from England that she can’t get elsewhere?
            What a PR coup it would be for Mr Putin, if Scotland was to look elsewhere for support.
            Right now, with expanding armed forces, Russia might not believe its luck if it were welcomed into Scotland….a very handy, ice-free, little Atlantic outpost.

          • HJ777

            You seem to forget that the SNP supports NATO membership. Invite in the Russians, indeed. You SNP types might take advice from the Ukraine first.

            A currency union with a separate sovereign state would be highly disruptive to the rest of the UK as it would involve the BoE underwriting the banks and public debt of what would be another country – a highly complex and risky operation and simply not worthwhile because it would offer little or no compensating advantages to the rest of the UK. The UK government avoided joining the Euro because it didn’t want to get involved in a currency union without fiscal transfers and without convergent economic policies – so why would it agree to another one?

            The spoilt brat behaviour all came from the SNP – give is what we want against your will or we’ll try to renege on debt. It was childish and stupid.

            You might like to read Alex Salmond’s former chief adviser, Alex Bell, where he admits that the white paper largely consisted of wishful think and that the economic case for independence is not credible.

          • AWoLsco

            “A currency union with a separate sovereign state would be highly disruptive to the rest of the UK”

            No, it wouldn’t. It would be just a temporary arrangement lasting no more than 5-10 yrs. You did this for Canada, Australia and New Zealand and you’re quite happy to bung 10 billion in the direction of India, so what’s so terrible about us Scots?…..Easily answered…..pure ancient, childish jealousy and spite.

            “it didn’t want to get involved in a currency union without fiscal
            transfers and without convergent economic policies – so why would it
            agree to another one?”

            Very simple. You owe us. With our blood and skill we kept your country going. I wonder what my grandfather’s reaction would have been on the morning of the Battle of the Somme if he was told that an independent Scotland would not receive a penny from England and any measures it took to attain some degree of security and prosperity would be thwarted at every twist and turn by a spiteful, vengeful England.

            An independent Scotland wouldn’t fail. We’re talking about a fairly modern state with potential strong backing from its supporters all over the world.

            This is not some crummy groundnut scheme.

            “the white paper largely consisted of wishful think and that the economic case for independence is not credible.”

            Well of course there’s going to be wishful thinking.
            There has to be a degree of that otherwise nobody would do anything at all.
            Anyway when all’s said and done Scottish nationalism isn’t primarily about economics but national pride and the promotion and maintenance of language and culture.
            I didn’t become a nationalist so that I could have a swanky car, eat caviar and knock back champagne like it’s going out of fashion.
            I became a nationalist so that we could carry guns, restore the belt or tawse, and so that those that embezzled public funds could be hanged by the neck……and above all…once again, see the Scottish navy restored so that it can do as a navy should….keep foreigners from poaching our much depleted fish stocks.

          • HJ777

            Nobody owes you anything, you utter deluded fool.

            Stop behaving like a small child who thinks that everyone has treated you badly. They haven’t.

            Fortunately, there are sensible people in Scotland.

          • AWoLsco

            Now, now, don’t get upset. Away and get mummy to make you a nice cup of tea and maybe she’ll let you have a chocolate biscuit.
            You’ll feel much better after that.

          • HJ777

            You really are an imbecile.

          • Sanctimony

            How about the Scrouble ?

          • Sanctimony

            If you are anything to go by, I imagine your grandfather was contemplating about shooting the English officer… leading him over the top… in the back ….

          • AWoLsco

            “your grandfather was contemplating about shooting the English officer”

            No he wouldn’t do that…just like English sailors refused to obey Churchill’s orders to fire on a Northern Irish ship bringing in guns from Germany.
            That’s one of the reasons I am fairly confident there will be no violence if Scotland does go independent. Most English people, in my experience are more likely to wish us luck rather than don uniform and fire on us Scots.
            These days the English are more preoccupied with paying off their mortgages and booking their holidays in Malaga than they are about trudging up the Gt North Road, and shouldering arms against the Scots in what could be mighty unpleasant weather conditions.
            Suggest it to them and see what the reaction is.

          • IlikeBrits

            Not my business, but I am quite sure the English would not press the Scots under a British yoke. Did the Swedish force the Norwegians 1906 to stay Swedish. No, because they were not crazy.

          • AWoLsco

            “Did the Swedish force the Norwegians 1906 to stay Swedish. No, because they were not crazy.”

            There was a bit more to it than that…..well actually, a lot more.,,,,and a lot of lessons and information for a re-independent Scotland.
            Never was Norway better armed and prepared for war than in 1905-1906…because they fully expected a Swedish invasion….but because they were armed and prepared, then no invasion took place.
            What happened next was interesting. Marxism/ communism/ socialism came to Norway….the usual sort of thing, agitation , strikes, and disarmament….the idea of which was to prepare the way for a Soviet takeover. Vidkun Quisling recalls a meeting of the defence committee where one member wore a badge depicting a broken rifle.
            Well, as history records, things did not go well for the ‘reds’ and their phony brotherhood of the working classes.
            Instead of their soviet comrades, the Germans arrived, and walked in to a largely undefended, unprepared country.

            And that’s the lesson for Scotland. Even a neutral country has to defend itself….and very effectively as well…often against two or more enemies rather than one. Then there’s the problem of the ‘enemy within’….often more dangerous than the ‘enemy without’

            Nobody has invaded Switzerland because it has the largest standing army in Europe and has invested in efficient defensive positions all over the country, including civil defence against nuclear and chemical attack.
            An independent Scotland should do the same.

            All this stuff about how we’re all going to be fried to a crisp in the event of a nuclear exchange is just a lot of baloney.
            It’s just not true. Not if you invest in civil defence which is relatively easy to do in hilly or mountainous terrain.
            Interestingly too, Churchill was perfectly prepared to mine and blockade the Norwegian coast( even though on paper a neutral country) in order to deny it to the Germans, which would have ruined Norway….but what the hell….all’s fair in love and war.
            England would sacrifice Scotland at the drop of a hat if that meant it could ensure its own survival.
            All’s fair in love and war.

          • Sanctimony

            Jeeeez, your are a serious cretin… get into bed with Putin and his hit men and Scotland will soon look like a downmarket Ukraine or Chechnya….

          • IlikeBrits

            … that’s so easy to wind you up,… really funny!

          • IlikeBrits

            LOL,… Scotland the very handy, ice-free, little Atlantic outpost. You really wind him up, don’t you?

          • AWoLsco

            “You really wind him up, don’t you?”

            Yes I do.
            It’s to remind the arrogant blighter that Scots have their very own outlook on the world and don’t see it through English eyes.
            Unlike England, Scotland had very strong ties with Russia.
            That came about after the union of 1707. Rather than take orders from the English, many Scots preferred to serve Russia.
            Half the Scottish navy resigned in disgust and decamped for Russia and the naval dockyards at Kronstadt. The Russian navy was stuffed with Scots admirals.Scots officers found ready employment in the Russian forces, right up until the ‘revolution’ of 1917, mainly fighting against the Turks and driving them out of the Crimea.
            There are over a half million Russians of direct Scots descent living in Russia today.

          • IlikeBrits

            … yes, even some East Prussians got Scotish ancestors,… not really known.

          • AWoLsco

            some East Prussians got Scotish ancestors,… not really known.

            I knew it………and was taught German in Scotland by East Prussians, who used to have an estate just outside Konigsberg( now sadly, Kaliningrad) The head of the family was a personal friend of Kaiser Wilhelm and had been presented to the late esteemed Tsar Nichholas II.
            They were very pro -Scottish……. and vice versa.
            I can’t remember a Saturday night passing without the playing of Preussens Gloria and the Koniggratzer Marsch.
            Of course this old link with Prussia is all utterly baffling and confusing to the uneducated, befuddled English peasantry…..and to many Scots too.
            They continue to think that Rudolf Hess’s landing in Scotland was just down to poor navigation.

          • IlikeBrits

            … yes it is one of the worst misunderstandings that Prussia as a whole is regarded to be a root of the Nazis. Even today our Turks could much more easy become Prussians then Germans.
            We got a lot of famous Prussians with non German names. But you are right, uneducated persons even on high ranks do crazy things like to abolish Prussia. They could better abolish “Germany”. ;-). Germany is more a geographical then a national term. An example: The German Swiss are Germanic and German. But if the Nazis would have invaded them they would have fought like crazy. Germans fighting Germans! That means they are Germans but their nationality is Swiss. Guess very few Brits will ever understand it.

      • Al

        You sent the English packing once, then we came back and kicked the s**t out of you. The reason we haven’t done so since is we bought your miserable little country when it all but bankrupted itself trying to expand overseas.

        • AWoLsco

          “we came back and kicked the s**t out of you.”

          No, you didn’t. You came back offering bribes and by today’s standards, absolutely massive concessions…..which we accepted.
          You never kicked s***t out of us…or anything like it.
          That was your big problem. You couldn’t go onto the continent to kick s***t out of johnny foreigner without us taking advantage and kicking s***t out of you.
          You see, you were the ‘Billy-No-Mates’ of Europe at the time and the way things are now, it looks as though you still are.

          • Al

            The reason we are ‘Billy-No-Mates’ is we had the greatest empire the world has ever seen. Something your jealous little nation tried to emulate with the Darien Scheme and was bought by the English for less than £50 million in today’s money, if that’s your deluded idea of a massive concession then so be it.

            There has never been any danger since 1707 when your country realised it was incapable of standing on its own two feet and would rather hang on to our coat tails; you really need to understand history if you think that the English stood still and didn’t venture from these islands to babysit the Scots from thence on!

            I’m happy with being a ‘Billy-No-Mates’ it comes from SUCCESS. We don’t have the shame of selling out, genocide, being conquered or that of surrender monkeys. I know many who wonder why after all the blood, toil and sweat of our forbears we are meant to accept the will of some snotty little runt in Brussels or that we should give a F**k about what wee Jimmy Krankie from Holyrood has to say.

          • Sanctimony

            The Scotch… like the Krauts… have the same huge inferiority complex… unlike the Krauts, however, the Scotch have an inferior culture, zilch industrial clout and few other assets….

            They survive on a diet of porridge, whiskey and spite…. the result being an overwhelming production of bile ….

          • AWoLsco

            “The Scotch… like the Krauts… have the same huge inferiority complex..”

            Some do….but I don’t…and won’t.

            “unlike the Krauts, however, the Scotch have an inferior culture”

            That may or may not be true.
            All I know is that whenever anyone in the world hears the skirl of the pipes they know instantly where it’s coming from, and every New Year, the world over, is celebrated to the unmistakeable refrain of Auld Lang Syne.

            More copies of Burns’ poems sell in Russia than any other foreign poet. For a tiny nation stuck out on the windswept scrag end of Europe this has been no mean achievement.

            Just keeping up with the achievements of our forbears imposes a huge burden on Scots.
            Trying to surpass them seems almost impossible, but hopefully we will keep trying. That’s what they would wish us to do……. to go the extra mile…like they did.

          • IlikeBrits

            English don’t call us Krauts,… .;-) You are not English as it seems?! A German POW joke. An English soldier hits a German POW. An officer passes by and told the soldier if he did not know about the convention of Geneve and asked him why he hits the POW. – First he said I f*** your *** and I did nothing. Then he said I f**** your **** and I did nothing. … good soldier but why do you hit him? … Yes I did nothing at all untill he spit into our ocean!

          • AWoLsco

            “we had the greatest empire the world has ever seen”

            True…but onlywith Scotland’s help. You’d never have achieved what you did, on your own. In fact, looking into matters more deeply one rather wonders doesn’t one, where all the money for the establishment of this empire came from?
            It wouldn’t have anything to do with the re-admission of jews into England, courtesy of Oliver Cromwell?

            “if that’s your deluded idea of a massive concession then so be it.”

            No. What I had in mind were things like the law, education and religion.
            So we were free to remain Scots, and the country carried on much as before. All we need are two things…… a parliament and our own armed forces.

            We’ve got back the first.(after a fashion). All we need now is the armed forces and we’re back in business.

            “your country realised it was incapable of standing on its own two feet and would rather hang on to our coat tails;”

            Not true. Certainly Scotland was not rich, but it wasn’t poor either….certainly not bankrupt. Today the English would give their bottom dollar to have the debts Scotland had then, which basically was no debt at all.

            In fact Scotland was a low tax country and the English government became alarmed at the number of English firms moving North of the border.
            If anything, you needed us onside more than we needed you…for a whole plethora of reasons..

            “I’m happy with being a ‘Billy-No-Mates’ it comes from SUCCESS”

            Except that you weren’t as successful, on your own, as you make out.
            You were surrounded by enemies. France was the superpower of the time. Ireland had been invaded. Next stop England. Same with colonisation. For every success there was a failure.

            It was only after the union with Scotland that you started leaping ahead.Scotland provided you with several vital assets…a relatively well educated labour force, a very well- educated, particularly in science and engineering, middleclass, and a knowledgeable, militarily skilled upperclass with diverse contacts all over Europe and Russia.

            “or we should give a give a F**k about what wee Jimmy Krankie from Holyrood has to say. ”

            Because you occupy only slightly more that half the British Isles and not all that much of its sea territory and very little of its hydrocarbon resources or renewable energy…..and you can’t feed yourselves.

            That’s why you need to give a F**k about what wee Jimmy Krankie from Holyrood has to say, Maybe not a great F**k, but at least a little one from time to time.

            It might be better to court Scotland a little and not try to beat her into submission. I don’t think the Scots are ready for that.

        • Sanctimony

          Well said, sir….

      • Sanctimony

        Well then, why the f**k did you craven cretins vote to hang on to the English milch cow?

        • AWoLsco

          “why the f**k did you craven cretins vote to hang on to the English milch cow?”

          Summarising briefly…generational differences. The English superiority mystique and Scottish inferiority complex is strong in the elderly.
          Not in the young. The young are more familiar with advertising, flashy images and are more cynical about the press and its propaganda, and they can see themselves being forced into emigration if they don’t do something about it themselves.
          They’re a lot smarter than the old folks.
          I think they will get independence in their lifetime.
          The only thing that worries me is…….Will they know what to do with it when they get it?

          • Sanctimony

            And ….

            So all Scotch wrinklies are in the throes of Alzheimer’s….

      • IlikeBrits

        LOL, ROFL,… even your country men don’t get that you wind them up,… but I am the German does! Right?

    • AHeadhunter

      Thank you for the history lesson. We arrived in Brecon in 1086 in the wake of the Conqueror. The reason we survived is that, unlike many other Normans, we married into the Welsh tribes – several times with the Vychan. So how pure is your bloodline?

      • Julian

        Pure Welsh on my fathers side and pure Clan Gunn on my mothers side – a highland clan descended from Norwegian settlers

        • AWoLsco

          “pure Clan Gunn on my mothers side – a highland clan descended from Norwegian settlers”

          Oh, how romantic!

          • IlikeBrits

            LOL,… I also regard it to be funny if someone has the idea to be pure something over let’s say 40 generations or so. What about 2^40,… you understand what I mean? 😉

          • AWoLsco

            “you understand what I mean? ;-)”

            I do.
            I think he might be better employed concentrating on his day job, rather than delivering amateur history lectures to Scots about their own country.

      • IlikeBrits

        Pure bloodline over 40 generations? Fortunately not,… guess you would not be able to write a word then,… if true. LOL, ROFL!
        I saw a portrait gallery of a “noble” family over centuries. The first looked very good. An intelligent , surely good “father” of his people. But from generaton to generation they look more and more terrible. Imagine how the portrait of the last guy looks,… imagine the painter did his best.
        Fortunately you do not have pure bloodline,…quite sure!

    • IlikeBrits

      Maybe you are right,… have a look. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hochdorf_Chieftain's_Grave
      Maybe we are not similar because of the Germanic tribes … but because of the Celts.
      Guess you don’t know that we Germans are also Celts… 😉

  • Marvin

    Let’s leave the EU and travel where no one has gone before towards a land called UTOPIA! This little land can become once again the greatest land on earth, if we can get the right people to run it.

  • Central power

    Out of EU.The benefits:The border will move from Calais to Dover/Folkestone. We shall be able to keep all these immigrants (from Africa,The Middle East,Afganistan etc) as EU will have no responsibility for taking them back. We shall get rid of Romanians, Poles,Czechs and with them of their contribution to the UK GDP. We shall get rid of Scotland as the second referendum will become inevitable.We shall have Boris Island airport for 100 billion pounds financed by PFI. We shall have the first non Ratner PM.
    We all be riding bikes and have windmills to supply our electricity.We shall get rid of Poundland shops and replace them with Fiverlands.Postal vote will become compulsory in order to promote diversity.

    • norman’s nonsense

      Your glass is never half full is it… bore off

    • Bertie

      “The border will move from Calais to Dover/Folkestone”

      Drivel.

      The current border has nothing to do with our EU membership.

      “The reciprocal stationing of UK and French customs officials on both sides of the Channel has nothing to do with the EU. It rests on two bilateral deals between London and Paris: the 1993 Sangatte Protocol and the 2003 Le Touquet Treaty.”

      The 2003 Calais treaty not at risk, there is no chance of The Jungle moving to Kent. Why? It’s a bilateral agreement made outside of the EU that the French have no plans to give up and is a great example of what can be achieved independently.

      This claim is as farcical as the one concerned British Expats and their summary deportation post Brexit

      “Despite warnings and fears, Britons living elsewhere in the EU would be largely unaffected if their home country left the union However, this claim is not grounded in legal fact, as the Vienna Convention on the Law of Treaties 1969 would come into play. It contains articles that are based on ‘acquired rights’, which individuals build up over time and hold despite any changes in future treaties enacted by their nation. ”

      http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/eureferendum/11698875/Emigration-Why-British-expats-have-nothing-to-fear-from-Brexit.html

  • towhommaybe

    There is NOT only one country that UK would be glad to have as partners, there are several much closer to British values and with strong economies, such as Sweden, The Netherlands, and Denmark.

  • SonOfaGun

    I propose a North Sea Union, obviously not in the EU sense. The English, Dutch, Germans, Danes, Swedes, Norse, the Anglosphere and other diasporas. The Germanics, the fair race, the Protestants, we form a distinct race of related tribes, bordering the North Sea, formerly the ‘German Sea’. We share a soul, spirit, values, root language, religion, blood, heritage, culture, and sensibilities distinct from the Slav, the Med and the Oriental. We are reserved, polite, practical, stubborn, hardworking, organised, punctual and traditional. Northern Europe is the birthplace of the Western world, we are the greatest tribes on Earth, and we should recognise and protect our common interests in these times of globalism.

    • Catiline_Conspirator

      Marked for future reference.

    • AWoLsco

      I always knew somebody would see sense one day.
      This was proposed earlier, in the late 30s, by that hero of the North, Vidkun Quisling, and by myself, independently, in the seventies, which I called the ‘North- West European League’, which included an independent Scotland.
      England was not envisaged as a member. However, if it divested itself of its resident tent-dwellers,camel-shaggers and other middle eastern, Asiatic and African influences and disavowed the worship of the great satan, making something of a nod in the direction of Godliness…then it might, eventually, just qualify for membership.

    • Jojje 3000

      A Union ? What about independence ? We want a better deal.

      • Bendys

        Independence is a dirty word. And so are nationalism and patriotism.

      • IlikeBrits

        No confederation!

    • Father Todd Unctious

      Anglicans have little in common with Lutherans or Calvinists.

      • Tamerlane

        Except that they’re all protestant.
        Try!

        • Father Todd Unctious

          So Protestants and Catholics have lots in common because they are Christian I assume.

          • Tamerlane

            You missed the schism then.

    • Ian Walker

      Can we have the Belgians for the chocolate?

      • IlikeBrits

        LOL, … yes,… ! 😉

  • MrUnclevanya

    We should leave the EU, the New Euro-Communists of the Brussels Politburo of Turd Polishers and Merdes. Years ago the Common Market was a byeword of financial corruption and corrupt practices. Has anything really changed? Not really, just the title from Common Market to European Union. The fiscal corruption still abounds, allegedly. The Brussels Turd Polishers are still working overtime, and the thieves and liars still have their hands in the EU taxpyers till. Soon, it will be the most henious crime ever – “Political Heresy” to insult or criticise the Brussels Merde machine. Criminal sanctions and European Arrest Warrants will flutter from the Brussels Soviets like confetti. Soon they will ahve ‘gulags and camps’ in which tod etain those who are deemed as dissidents. They have learned the lessons well from the days of Hitler Ziete and the Old Soviets and Warsaw Pact states. Soon, also the Euro currency will go the same way as the Dodo – along with the EU-(SSR).

  • IlikeBrits

    LOL,… when I was a shool boy 41 years ago, visiting England for the first time I had the same feeling. My host parents seem to be somehow grand parents to me and if I were a orphan they could have adopt me. I felt to be with grand parents,… integrated into their procedures of daily living,… amazing. Yes, I felt if I visited my grand parents! How come. Could it be that you Brits are not Spaniards, … or that we Germans have a big Celtic heritage also,… besides the Germanic heritage?! You are wellcome,…. . 😉

  • flydlbee

    We also share the Protestant religion with the other countries who once worshipped the old Norse gods. With it came the work ethic and the direct relationship with God (no meddlesome priesthood acting as intermediaries). A closer mercantile relationship could well work as long as it does not extend to political union. We could call it the “Hansa”.

    • IlikeBrits

      Yes, … London Hanse office was called Stalhof. Not a new idea!

    • Jacobi

      Speak for yourself. I am no protestant. And no crap about the protestant work-ethic. That is all part of the protestant version of history. I could let you have a list of Catholic scientific thinkers going back to the 15th century and beyond.
      As for the old Norse gods, don’t make me laugh!

      • AWoLsco

        “I could let you have a list of Catholic scientific thinkers going back to the 15th century and beyond.”

        Please do.
        I think you are making that up….but prove me wrong if you can.

        • Jacobi

          No honest I’m not. Always check my sources before sticking my head out – and of course provoking people to further prompt me. Trouble is I’m not very computer literate. Wiki of course. Nearly 4 (size12 ) pages long so don’t want to copy it below.

          Try https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Catholic_scientists

          ps I have a good one for flydbee if he’s daft enough to come back!

          • flydlbee
          • Jacobi

            I rest my case as they say on the Telly. Your reference is a protestant version of history written by a Protestant!

            Actually, Tyburn must have been quite an interesting place for some 600 years or so. Shame it’s gone. As Johnson said,

            ” executions are intended to draw spectators. If they don’t draw spectators, they don’t answer their purpose….The public was gratified by a procession: the criminal was supported by it “.

            Now that’s enough. Must go!

          • flydlbee

            How strange to meet an RC fanatic – I thought they died out years ago.

          • Jacobi

            I wouldn’t know, not ever having, as a reasonably knowledgeable, logical, experienced and reasoning orthodox Catholic come across them .
            I have come across a lot of Catholics who have been frightened and therefore silenced by the tyranny of secular opinion which they have found all round them in the last say, 55 years, however.
            You appear to be a good example of such attempted tyranny.

            I wonder what fanatical secular group do you belong to?

          • flydlbee

            Now run along and abase yourself before your imaginary friend, apologise for Original Sin, and let the rest of us have an adult conversation.

          • Jacobi

            I am too old for running, walking steadily perhaps and suspect so are you.
            You should never apologise for the deeds of another although you may be affected by them. Christ through His Death and Resurrection has given us the choice of Salvation.
            Now flydlbee, do I detect a bit of insulting rhetoric creeping in here in your reasoning? Usually a sign that people are running out of explanation and beginning to jump upo and down. Your not going to chall;enge me to meet you on Gretna Common at dawn I hope. I mean we would both then, not just you look a bit silly.
            You haven’t answered my question. What fanatical secularist group do you belong to?
            And where is your sense of form, man? Remember this is a secular paper and it was not me who introduced religion!

          • flydlbee

            I am a cynic. It is not possible to be a fanatical cynic, just a habitual one. Now go play with your worry-beads.

          • Jacobi

            A cynic is one who is relativist, who denies every thing, the ultimate fanatic, I knew it!
            Now that us it flydlbee, thanks for not challenging me, I mean its a bit cold up here at dawn.
            We are beginning to repeat ourselves so last word to you, and don’t as a relativist get upset, but God bless!

          • flydlbee

            A I am even cynical about your definition of cynicism. I don’t “deny”; I just don’t believe without adequate evidence. You believe without evidence. That, to me, is the definition of a fool.

          • Rj Kietchen

            LOL, you guys are the reason we got rid of organized religion 40 years ago in the US, with all your kneelin’ and ashaming, a’chuckin’ and a’jive’n. Throw out your ancient history …it’s time for you two to join the 21st century.

          • Bendys

            You never got rid of organized religion. Only instead of kneelin’ and ashaming you have TV ‘pastors’ a-screaming and a-swindling.

          • Rj Kietchen

            We got rid of TV 30 years ago. Over here less than 2% of the population watches TV more than once a week, and less than 5% even own a TV. Of the 2% that are regular users, less than 1% of them watch religious programming. do the math, that’s 1 in a thousand = virtually zero.

          • Bendys

            Not according to the American government’s statistics.

            “Watching TV was the leisure activity that occupied the most time (2.8 hours per day),
            accounting for more than half of leisure time, on average, for those age 15 and over.”

            http://www.bls.gov/news.release/atus.nr0.htm

          • AWoLsco

            “Wiki of course. Nearly 4 (size12 ) pages long”

            Dodging. Put it in your own words and in your own way. That might be of interest. Anybody can look up Wickedpaedophilia.

          • Jacobi

            Then do so. I remember at school being told about Francis Bacon for instance, and thinking even then his thinking must have gone further back. An then there is those other great scientists Copernicus and er, eh, me!.

          • AWoLsco

            You said a list.
            So far, you’ve only mentioned two names.

        • flydlbee

          Will it include Galileo?

    • Leon Wolfeson

      Ah, an abusive trading bloc which made money by ripping off other nations.

  • techienumber1

    it would be the same thing as Germany are running the EU don’t have to have half a brain to know that did you know that 5 years down the line the EU would abolish all parties that run our country just so it could be run by them we would loose all our rights and have nothing we have done our research and found it to be true(LEGION)

    • Leon Wolfeson

      Your personalities found this where>

  • Bendys

    Stop dreaming, Brits. You will never be allowed to leave the E.U.
    Nobody will.

    • AWoLsco

      “You will never be allowed to leave the E.U.
      Nobody will.”

      I’ve a horrible feeling you might be right.
      There are only two organisations I know of, that apply such rules….the mafia and the masons.

      • Mike

        … and Islam.

        • AWoLsco

          That’s true. I read something about muslims in Russia prior to the revolution. if anyone thinks they will convert, forget it.

          Donald McKenzie Wallace, a Scottish officer in the Russian army relates in his book ” Russia”, coming across a remote Scottish mission outpost in the Circassian mountains, charged with mission impossible…the conversion of mussulmen, as he calls them, to Christianity.
          Not much success i’m afraid……. only one convert in 40 yrs, a boy rescued from a fall in a deep ravine….and later in adulthood he reverted back to Islam.

    • Leon Wolfeson

      Thanks for opposing democracy.

      • Bendys

        Not I, my friend. The unelected bureaucrats in Brussels.

        • Leon Wolfeson

          So you deny your post, try to pretend to be my friend and blame normal employed workers.

          • Bendys

            What, you think I have the power to prevent Britain from leaving the E.U. ?

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Are you claiming such? Can’t see how that relates to what I said, but hey!

          • Bendys

            Then why did you think I was opposing democracy ?

          • Leon Wolfeson

            You said very clearly that what the British voted for wouldn’t matter!

          • Bendys

            I said they wouldn’t be allowed to leave the EU, and that nobody will. It’s a prediction.
            Regardless of the outcome of the vote, because Ireland was asked to vote twice for the EU constitution when the first round of results showed she was against it. And the same happened with France and Holland. Which proves that democratic voting is not to the liking of the EU bosses when the outcome is not what they expected.
            So from this (and other things) it’s safe to deduce that nobody once in will be allowed to get out. But time will tell if I was right or not.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            It’s a claim.

            As you ignore what actually happened in other cases, which was major changes were made to accomodate the people’s views – you are in fact raging at democracy.

            You are “deducing” nothing, but putting forward your anti-democratic propaganda.

            (And it’s no coincidence of course that you’re decrying the treaties which brought in further democracy to the EU…)

          • Bendys

            Wow.. ‘raging’… ‘anti-democratic propaganda’.. ‘decrying’ .. all the words from the troll courses.
            I am very much in favour of Brexit, but I don’t think Britain will be allowed to leave the EU for the reasons I gave. If she left, at least half of the other ones would leave too, and we can’t have that now, can we ?

          • Leon Wolfeson

            edit; Right, you’re IHHR and his troll army, check. Thanks for the anti-democratic spew.

          • Bendys

            You’re a professional troll.
            You posted almost 46,000 comments in less than 2 years.
            That’s approximately 62 comments per day.
            Assuming that you sleep, eat, shower, etc. and assuming that it would take you (conservatively speaking) some 10 hours to do that, you are left with 14 hours in which to post those 62 comments.
            That’s approximately 4 comments an hour every day of the week for the last 2 years.
            Or, as you keep most of them short, aggressive and idiotic, you probably have more time for yourself.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            No, I do not want your job.

            Your excuses for your Anti-Democratic view roll on. That’s all there is to it, you and your your many usernames, IHRR etc. are just whining at me again and blaming me for your attitudes.

          • Bendys

            Get lost, troll.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Ah yes, those who support democracy must “get lost”, IHHR.

            Does the blaming the “jewish media” come next again, that’s your usual tactic after all, on all your usernames.

          • Bendys

            Get lost, troll.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Ah, the censor whines, trying to silence pro-democratic views.

            So, IHHR, will you blame the Sky Lizards again? That was funny.

          • Bendys

            Go away to your Daily Stormer.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Ah yes, tell the Jew to go to, well, your preferred…

          • Bendys

            Get lost, nazi-pretending-to-be-a-jew.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Your talking to yourself… as you spew Jewhate…

          • Bendys

            You’re funny.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            “UR FUNNY”

            Yes, yes, I hear your view of Jews like me.

          • Bendys

            You’re not a Jew. You’re mental.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            “UR NO JEW, JEW”
            “UR MAD, JEW”

            Same old, same old. Plus your usual, IHHR, far right, social darwinist, totalitarian shriek that everyone not just like you is mad…that excuse for your determination to stop discussion.

          • Bendys

            On the contrary. Let’s discuss some more. This thread is old, anyway.
            So, go ahead, discuss.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Discuss? No, your hating me is not discussion. It’s just that.

          • Bendys

            Well, I have seen nutcase spammers in many places, but I never thought they would be allowed on The Spectator.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Yes, well, I’ve flagged your posts to hopefully take care of that little problem.

            And given you just admitted your agenda, spammer…

          • Bendys

            I also flagged yours.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Well of course, you need to try and protect your trolling after all.

          • Bendys

            You’re talking to your other self, now, aren’t you ?

          • Leon Wolfeson

            No, I do not follow your practices, IHHR. I also don’t share your Jewhate.

          • Bendys

            They pay you by the comment, don’t they ? That’s why you are so prolific.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            “They”

            Always “they”. The mysterious force for your conspiracy theories.

            No, I don’t have your job, Jewhater. Tell me, which cult…

          • Bendys

            Who are “they” ? The voices in your head ?

          • Leon Wolfeson

            No, I don’t have your issues, or make your posts.

    • Manno Mann

      I hope you are wrong. The EU as it is today, will implode. It’s just a lazy, resource consuming monster. Leaving is wrong, changing it to an Economic Zone more like in the past is better. The Euro will also disappear again. Joined currency efforts have failed already in the past.

  • If, as Boris Johnson claims, the EU is an invention of the CIA then leaving would be nigh on impossible. . .

    • Andrew Finn

      Boris is correct. Declassified CIA papers 15 years ago confirmed its involvement, and its long-standing policy post-WWII to force the UK into a federal Europe. If you’re wondering why the US is such a fervent cheerleader for the EU, that is why.

      So when you hear Obama and the State Department talk about how the UK must stay in the EU, remember that it’s not ‘friendly advice‘ as the Prime Minister would have us believe, it’s simply Obama carrying on the policy of his predecessors.

      It suits the United States to have a weak UK shackled to the EU with no influence.

      • Leon Wolfeson

        Yea, never mind the Isolated England you want, with it’s in your logic negative influence…

      • That is quite revealing it is. . .in the same way, I imagine, the CIA infiltrated a certain UK political party during the Cold War for fear Britain was leaning towards socialism–a term Americans dread like Ebola. Pity

  • Rj Kietchen

    LOL, why would Germany want to team up with a 2nd tier country like England. No way are you in the same league, 50% German ancestry notwithstanding. You can argue that there is some dead wood in the EU, but how can you argue Germany should get rid of all that, only to regain it back with England…irrational.

    • IlikeBrits

      … the Brits still got nukes! That means Germany is a 2nd tier country. If we pay, the Brits could keep their nukes, the seat in the UN,… . We do the rest . Two things the Brits could bring in for the Anglo-German Confederation. The Advantage would be, Germany could still be the soft power and the Brits play the strong power.

      • Rj Kietchen

        Churchill decided a 2nd tier England was better than a German England, right or wrong, he got what he wanted.

        • IlikeBrits

          Did Germany ever want a German England?

    • Holy God we praise Thy Name

      You’re like a turtle flipped on its back. Going nowhere, belly up, isolated. A Loser.

      • Rj Kietchen

        Well then nearly everyone is a turtle flipped on his back, because almost no one still worships Gods and Magicians, Devils and Ghouls, Witches and Prophets. You forget, everyone else is much smarter and better educated than you are.

        • Holy God we praise Thy Name

          Yawn.

  • Mike

    What about the Dutch? The Danes are okay too.

    • Euro Yank

      A new northern alliance?

      • IlikeBrits

        We had that, called Hanse.

        • Euro Yank

          True enough. Borders & alliances are transient.

  • Trailblazer10

    Germany will not be in any sense European within 20 years.

    • IlikeBrits

      …. do you really think so? We even have Brits in our commuter trains,…

  • Tomek Borecki

    this brexit will be the best option but for russia. http://gazetacentrum.pl/wojna-hybrydowa-rosja-niemcy/

    • Trailblazer10

      It is the only chance the British have to avoid carnage.

      • Leon Wolfeson

        Really, care to share details of the plans for said carnage should the British not oblige you?

    • AWoLsco

      Of late, in an attempt to reach the highest summit of European culture, I have taken to learning the Polish language….. and even attempted a poem, a modest effort forsooth, which I hope displays the dulcet tones and deep philosophical ambience of this , strangely, little- known tongue.

      Now, me dearios, a sombre refrain and ditty from the far-off Pols, or fields of Poland.
      Here we go, altogether now , after me…..

      “Mrs Brownski, went to townski,
      With her knickers,
      Hanging downski.”

      There’s more, but modesty forbids further publication. However, I will respond to requests and suggestions….polite ones only please….. after all, I’m British. I was born that way and cannot help myself.

  • SeaNote

    Britain is Deutschland’s lebensraum after they steal British steel.

    • IlikeBrits

      LOL,… Tata is English? Really?… I would not wonder if one day you take your longboats and sail back … LOL, ROFL. Have a look, real estate is not very expensive in North-East Germany and in Angeln,… for example. Back to the roots! ? LOL, ROFL

      • AWoLsco

        “I would not wonder if one day you take your longboats and sail back ”

        What a good idea.
        Mind you, Scotland was invaded by Angles too, but we got a better class of Angle, so we’ll keep ours.
        The acute Angles went north and the obtuse Angles went south.

        • IlikeBrits

          I am very sorry that I discovered that you are an Ani-Semite,… what a pity. How can a well educated guy like you become an Anti-Semite?

          • AWoLsco

            “How can a well educated guy like you become an Anti-Semite?”

            Very easy. Read history books that are NOT recommended….and don’t believe all that’s in the bible….for instance, the jews did not flee Egypt.
            They were kicked out.
            Christianity is NOT an ‘Abrahamic’ religion at all but an anti-jewish religion. A jew told me this and at first I didn’t believe him, but I kept the idea in mind and collected information on this. I now think he was right.
            Some of the most interesting, thought -provoking conversations i have ever had have been with jews……however that didn’t mean I believed everything they told me.
            I am a north-west European Scotsman and Christian……not a jew.
            I believe in live and let live. That, however, doesn’t mean I will tolerate being conned just for the sake of world peace.

          • IlikeBrits

            What a pity. The Jews are capable in general, got a lot of geniuses and are hated for all this. … Germans are not really blamed by Jews,… guess I understand now why. As weird it sounds ,… they feel pity for us Germans?!

          • AWoLsco

            “What a pity”

            Yes. It is so sad to encounter yet another German mental cripple.

          • IlikeBrits

            … that happened to a people if it follows a guy like Hitler,… fortunately you are too tiny … as a people to be dangerous, even if you got more dangerous individuals … %?! . Do you understand why the Nazis had the idea to be ruled by the few Jews. 0,5% of population? A very weird idea to regard themselves as the superior race but ruled by the vast minority. If the Jews really ruled the Germans they were the superior race,… what a rubbish,…

          • AWoLsco

            “Do you understand why the Nazis had the idea to be ruled by the few Jews. 0,5% of population?”

            No mystery to this whatsoever…because you were a bunch of dummkopfs and were stuffed with traitors within the gates, like freemasons.

            You’ve been getting out and about too much and been meeting too many interesting but simple people.
            You need to stay indoors and study more.
            Here’s a couple of interesting books for you.
            “Under the Sign of the Scorpion” by Juri Lina……. if you like horror stories….boy, are you in for a treat.
            “The Art of War by Sun Tzu,”….. highly recommended by the old Soviet KGB…..a thrilling read, packed with really hot tips on subversion, despite having been written circa 500 BC….amazingly, still relevant today.
            Have fun, but be prepared to receive a bit of a shock to the system as you rapidly grow up and become an adult.
            “He who knows nothing of history remains forever a child” said by some Roman geezer, Cicero I think it was.

          • IlikeBrits

            I read Sun Tzu,… and a lot more, Churchill etc. 😉
            “Do you understand why the Nazis had the idea to be ruled by the few Jews. 0,5% of population?”

            Your answer?

          • AWoLsco

            “I read Sun Tzu”

            Then read it again…..carefully.

            “Your answer?”

            You do your own homework. I don’t mind discussing things with the uneducated but will not waste time on the ineducable( people that don’t want to, or can’t, be educated.)

          • IlikeBrits

            If someone regards you to be a Dummkopf, encourage him to think so. Sun Tzu

          • AWoLsco

            “If someone regards you to be a Dummkopf, encourage him to think so. Sun Tzu”

            “Woman who boil cabbage and peas in same pot is unhygienic”….Confucius.

          • IlikeBrits

            Good night, … as it seems you don’t understand Sun Tzu. My statement was only “frei nach Sun Tzu”. 😉 … you have no answer!

          • AWoLsco

            Gute nacht.

            “Man who walk down street with hands in pockets….He feel a little cocky”

            Yet another gem of Oriental mysticism from Confucius, for you to mull over.

          • IlikeBrits

            But my statement adopted from Sun Tzu is quite clear, but you don’t see it. The beam in your eye thing, got it? Who regards himself to be a Christian and don’t accept Christ to be a Jew… .
            Ok, Sun Tzu lesson:
            Is it an advantage for you if your enemy regards you to be strong, clever etc.? No. It is an advantage for you if your enemy regards you as stupid, weak etc. if you are the oposite! If you got a strong military unit only have few camp fires at night, if you got a small… . guess you get it.

          • AWoLsco

            ….and your point is? I just can’t make out what you are trying to say
            Something odd about your(poor) English. You sound more like an Israeli than a German to me.

          • IlikeBrits

            I am German, ;-), … yes,… poor English, I know, although I even got Dutch Frisians in my pedigree,…

          • IlikeBrits

            “Do you understand why the Nazis had the idea to be ruled by the few Jews. 0,5% of population?”
            That is a question I am really interested in. Never got an answer. As a little boy I asked why egg-yellow is called egg-yellow. For me it seems to be orange. In these days! I did not get an answer, only angry reactions. You don’t understand? 😉
            The eggs were orange, because of colour,.I did not know! .. today you can buy a bio-egg,… yes and egg-yellow is egg-yellow again. 😉
            But I was regarded to be a stupid boy? You will agree, quite sure. 😉

          • IlikeBrits

            IlikeBrits AWoLsco • 6 minutes ago

            I read Sun Tzu,… and a lot more, Churchill etc. 😉
            “Do you understand why the Nazis had the idea to be ruled by the few Jews. 0,5% of population?”

            Your answer?

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Blaming the Other is, sadly, easier than thinking.

          • IlikeBrits

            I always wondered that Jews don’t blame Germans . Guess I understand now.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            PC blanket hate is wrong, too.

  • Steve Delahunty

    Germany will always be a big fish in the European puddle and a small fish in the Global pond….

    • IlikeBrits

      … very astute 😉

  • TomokoHasegawa

    Give us Stewart Lee and we’ll show you how to build cars people’ll want to buy. Jokes aside, I often think that the English people’s sense of humour and relaxingly jovial way to treat each other (ie. lack of sternness) is exactly what many Germans would like to be better at.

    Let’s do this.

    P.S. I like wine better, but it doesn’t have to be French one.

    • IlikeBrits

      (ie. lack of sternness) Agree! But if you will visit North-West Germany you will find a very similar kind of humour. I can understand that the Brits don’t feel very familiar with Bavarians and Swabians,… we do neither. 😉

      • TomokoHasegawa

        No thanks. I lived in Hamburg for many years, it’s not at all comparable with an English sense of humour.

        • IlikeBrits

          … yes Hamburger are special case,… but Nort-West, East Frisia for example, have you been there?

  • whjohnson

    What’s the difference between Germany and the eu?

    I’m struggling here……………….

    • 1234567890

      There’s no (yo)u in Germany? (It’s all about the Germans).

  • Roberto

    I don’t understand the thought process: did we not defeat the Germans? Is it because we are subjects of the hereditary Gotha monarchy? While the UK is in many ways admirable this article really does a historical volte face unfair to all of us in these islands especially as (apart from the bellicose adventurer Churchill) the early attempts of Monet, Schumann, Adenauer and DeGasperi to get European states to work together were ignored or perhaps even discouraged by the UK. Don’t make me laugh HMG were not there at Messina, the UK formed its own group called EFTA and only 40 years ago Edward Heath managed (pace DeGaulle’s veto to join the EEC). Just as an aside it is clear that the “German economy” is fully enmeshed with Switzerland, Austria, North Italy and within the ‘Blue Banana’ so beloved of French geographers London stands out as on the edge. I would sincerely like to know what the UK can contribute in exclusive to such a London Berlin Axis!

  • Leon Wolfeson

    Yea, not like we sell to anyone else.

  • kentchap

    “All those other countries ending in vowels” – like Austria? Smug c&ck writing for a toilet paper grade rag.

    • NoReplyNeeded

      Still pedalling your bigotry and anti-German rhetoric anywhere you can?

      • kentchap

        Since when disagreeing with the blatantly wrong statements that we are “temperamentally similar to our German friends” and “we also have more in common with them than we do with our neighbours” constitutes “bigotry” and “anti-German rhetoric”? Grow up.

        • NoReplyNeeded

          Because they are only wrong in your tiny, ignorant mind, that’s all too obvious.

          • kentchap

            For the love of God!

          • NoReplyNeeded

            Come on, lighten up, it’s painfully obvious to everyone we have more in common with Germany than we do France.

            A bigoted English man, stuck in a post-war mentality, who despises Germany and everything german, resides in Berlin. Nothing you can say in your ‘little englander’ rants will ever take the hilarity of your situation away.

          • kentchap

            You definitely have more in common with the Germans than the rest of us – you’re shagging one of them.

            I would worry more about the “hilarity” of your ad hominem given my very alleged place of residence that you mention if I was you.

            Again, where was the “bigotry” and “anti-German rhetorics” in my comments?

          • NoReplyNeeded

            Blimey,

            “you’re shagging one of them.” whist crying “given my very alleged place of residence”. SMH.

            “Again, where was the “bigotry” and “anti-German rhetorics” in my comments?” Here, thelocal.de the place where you normally go to denigrate.

            You’re not very good at this, kid.

          • kentchap

            Do you have a life?

            As expected , you were not able to prove your gratuitous allegations in this particular context and are pointing the finger somewhere else. Are you sure the rest of my comments aren’t as “bigoted” and “anti-German” as this one?

          • NoReplyNeeded

            Yes, one made all the more joyous by seeing your bigotry questioned and ridiculed for what it is. 😉

          • kentchap

            Simple minds, simple pleasures.

            The only thing questionable here is your compulsive obessive behaviour, your imagination that has absolutely no correspondence in reality and your paranoia.

          • NoReplyNeeded

            There is only one reason why an individual who resides in a place they cannot abide and has nothing but bigoted bile to spout day after day, and thats because they are unhappy things aren’t to their liking.

            You’re not in the least the left-leaning, open-minded, liberal you portray yourself to be. Looking at your (tame in comparison to thelocal.de) first message here, you’re intolerant and ignorant of other cultures.

            That is your reality.

          • kentchap

            Calm down. dear.

            Do you actually have a point? You keep on banging on about the “bigotry” in my comment yet you were totally unable to come up with any hard evidence of my “bigotry”.

            What exactly is “bigoted” about saying that “we are different from the Germans”?

            I assume the author’s smug and idiotic sneer at “other countries ending in “a” ” is your idea of open mindedness and liberal mindset.

            A good piece of advice for you: keep your hysteria in check – it is your “sad reality” and, unlike my alleged “bigotry”, it is actually very real and not the product of someone’s imagination.

          • NoReplyNeeded

            Like you came up with hard evidence to counter “temperamentally similar to our German friends” and “we also have more in common with them than we do with our neighbours” on your overly affected retort?

            Yeah, right… SMH.

            Do I need to repeat everything for you old man?

            bigoted
            ˈbɪɡətɪd/
            adjective
            obstinately or unreasonably attached to a belief, opinion, or faction, and intolerant towards other people’s beliefs and practices.

            I.e. “I wish you stopped presenting your wishful thinking as facts.”

            I’d say your comment is unreasonably attached to an opinion, seeing as you cannot prove otherwise.

            You need to change your little picture, your conservative attire isn’t the dress of the political left, as you’d like to be perceived.

          • kentchap

            No one apart from you is “screaming” here. You’re boring, repetitive and aggressive bordering pathological obsession.

            It’s definitely not me making sweeping statements about who is more like the other without any shred of solid evidence (anatomical details common to all humans, some people’s preference for sausages, beer and German made cars or Adolf’s admiration for the British Empire don’t hold water), therefore the onus is on them to prove their assertions.

            If you want to help them, I’m afraid your hysterics about my alleged “bigotry” don’t count, they are just an indicator of your massive chip on the shoulder and your deep seated emotional issues.

          • NoReplyNeeded

            “we temperamentally similar to our German friends, we also have more in common with them than we do with our neighbours” – I wish you stopped presenting your wishful thinking as facts.”

            It’s on your onus to provide evidence that these things are not indeed true and are, as you claim “wishful thinking” instead of this fact.

            If you can’t then your comment is unreasonably attached to an opinion. i.e bigotry.

            Keep wiggling, or keep on with the bizarre body parts deflection… Better still just give up, you’re embarrassing yourself, especially now you are just repeating the same words I am saying to you like a child trying to hide behind the subject.

            Have a lovely holiday weekend surrounded by the very people you despise. Don’t forget the hilarity of your situation trumps all. 😉

          • kentchap

            Oh dear. You keep on making a complete backside out of yourself, don’t you?

            Prove me wrong – what exactly makes us and the Germans alike apart from what makes us and the rest of the people on this planet alike?

          • NoReplyNeeded

            The old, “I’ve made a statement that I can’t defend, so I’ll ask someone else to prove it” line, I guess we should add Troll to the list as well as bigoted.

            Try again. Or better still just run away, you’ve embarrassed yourself, again.

          • kentchap

            I wasn’t holding my breath and guess what? I was right.

            You are unable to provide any credible arguments suporting the great unknown Nige Farndale’s very subjective and bizarre opinion you’re subscribing to that “we temperamentally similar to our German friends, we also have more in common with them than we do with our neighbours” beyond obsessively using my alleged “bigotry” non-argument as evidence.

            Why am I not surprised?

            PS “NoReplyNeeded” – what’s in a nick? That says it all about your very own idea of a civilised conversation.

          • NoReplyNeeded

            Still going? Come on, looking at this monologue all you’ve done is try to accuse me of your behaviour, if you look back, you are one making ad hominem comments and trying to turn the tables on me because you can’t back up your initial comment.

            A conversation works like this, someone makes a comment, someone else asks them to explain this comment, not your childish. “You prove my comment for me by saying why I’m wrong”

            Care to try one last time?

          • NoReplyNeeded

            Arn’t we pedantic today.

            Are you saying you’ve actually had a moment of clarity and this first comment of yours was not in some way bigoted?

            Then perhaps you should explain it further as to what you really mean, in case there a some people who are unable read between your lines…

            “Since when disagreeing with the blatantly wrong statements” [sic] They are only wrong in your small mind I’m afraid.

          • kentchap

            What exactly is “bigoted” about the comment?

            I leave the “reading between the lines” for people with nothing better to do like yourself.

          • NoReplyNeeded

            You don’t have a life it seems.

            bigoted
            ˈbɪɡətɪd/
            adjective
            obstinately or unreasonably attached to a belief, opinion, or faction, and intolerant towards other people’s beliefs and practices.

            I.e. “I wish you stopped presenting your wishful thinking as facts.”

            I’d say your comment is unreasonably attached to an opinion, seeing as you cannot prove otherwise.

            Get over it and move on.

          • kentchap

            Indeed we are alike the Germans. We have two years, two eyes, two arms, two legs, we eat sausages and (some of us) drive German cars – that is the author’s general argument. The rest is his (and your) wishful thinking.

            Don’t mistake your ad hominems for arguments, little man/woman.

          • NoReplyNeeded

            “Don’t mistake your ad hominem” “hysterical little man/woman”

            It really is a sign of desperation on your part when all I need is to do is hold up a mirror.

          • kentchap

            While you’re at it try to hold that mirror up to your pretty self. If you have a grain of common sense you’d be horrified. And that’s a big IF.

          • benny black

            There are no gods…

  • kentchap

    “we temperamentally similar to our German friends, we also have more in common with them than we do with our neighbours” – speak for yourself. I wish you stopped presenting your wishful thinking as facts.

  • michaelz

    I would hate UK to leave the EU.
    I have a lot of friends in England, Scotland and even some in Wales. I enjoyed the feeling that Europe as a whole will grow together. But all the countries who currently seem to think a strong unified Europe is a bad idea should leave the EU. I rather have a smaller EU with members who really drive Europe forward.
    I hope the good relationships with those other countries like Uk will last and they will not further fall into Putin’s hand. I really wonder how many of those anti European campaigns are sponsored by him and how many supporters of the Brexit in this board are on his payroll.

Close