Politics

David Cameron is heading for a hollow victory in the EU referendum

23 April 2016

9:00 AM

23 April 2016

9:00 AM

‘Nothing except a battle lost can be half as melancholy as a battle won,’ wrote the Duke of Wellington after Waterloo. David Cameron may well feel the same about referendums on 24 June. The EU debate is already taking a toll on the Tory party and his premiership. While defeat would be disastrous for him, even victory will come at a heavy political cost.

Victory is, for now, still the most likely outcome. Barring a dramatic worsening of the migrant crisis or another eurozone emergency, the uncertainty inherent in leaving the EU will probably mean that most British voters will choose to maintain the status quo. But in winning the referendum, Cameron could well lose his party.

He had always believed that the number of outright leavers in the Tory fold was relatively small. At the start of the year, No. 10 thought that both Michael Gove and Boris Johnson would be onside. They thought the number of MPs backing ‘leave’ would be in double, not triple, figures. But now Cameron finds both Gove and Johnson taking on frontline roles in a ‘leave’ campaign supported by close to half of his MPs and most of the party’s activists.

The Conservative leadership has long hoped that the party could be put back together after the referendum. The idea was that the consoling prospect of a decade in power if the party stayed united would overcome the bitterness of the EU debate. But the blue-on-blue attacks are now increasingly vicious, and will not easily be forgotten. In the last few days George Osborne has slammed Leavers as ‘economically illiterate’, Boris Johnson has accused David Cameron, George Osborne and Theresa May of misleading voters about immigration, and Osborne’s warning that leaving the EU would cost households thousands of pounds has been rubbished in the most personal terms by Brexit-supporting backbenchers.


Cameron knows that he must try to stop this before the damage is irreversible. One minister in the ‘leave’ camp, summoned to see the Prime Minister recently, expected a dressing-down after criticising government policy to make a campaign point. To the minister’s surprise, the conversation was civil. I’m told that only when Boris Johnson’s name came up did Cameron show anger.

In private, those close to Cameron say that the reason more Tory MPs than expected are backing Brexit is because of either constituency pressure or personal ambition. But it is actually part of a broader trend — the British centre-right is not as keen on Europe as it once was. It is an intriguing and significant fact that all four living chairmen of the 1922 Committee of Tory backbenchers—Edward du Cann, Archie Hamilton, Michael Spicer and Graham Brady—are for ‘leave’. Given that the chairman of the ’22 is elected by his Tory colleagues, this is an good indication of where Tory parliamentary opinion lies on the European question.

The most recent ICM phone poll suggests that more Tory voters will back ‘leave’ than ‘remain’. So Cameron will need a large Labour vote for ‘remain’ to win the referendum, which explains his willingness to be photographed with Neil Kinnock last week. But relying on Labour is not a comfortable experience for a Tory Prime Minister. First of all there is the fact that Alan Johnson, leader of the ‘remain’ cause for Labour, is —in the words of one Labour insider — ‘not a driven politician’. Government insiders are already grumbling about his work rate.

This is compounded by the fact that, Jeremy Corbyn, the Labour leader, is not inclined to make life easy for the government during this referendum. He may be on the same side as Cameron in the EU debate, but he is not holding back from criticising the Tories, despite the official ‘remain’ campaign’s attempts to quell criticism of the Prime Minister on the grounds that he is their cause’s principal advocate. It’s a strange turnaround. The Tories were historically more pro-Europe. In the 1970s it was a Tory Prime Minister who took Britain into the European Economic Community and a Labour one who was obliged to offer a referendum on membership to prevent a split in his party. The left only started to fully embrace the European project after Commission president Jacques Delors’ speech to the Trades Union Congress in Bournemouth in 1988. His message was that the internal market would be a social market where ‘it would be unacceptable for unfair practices to distort the interplay of economic forces’.

At Maastricht in 1991, John Major negotiated a British opt-out from the social chapter, only for Tony Blair to take us back into it after the 1997 election. By the time David Cameron came to renegotiate our terms of membership, reviving this opt-out was no longer a realistic option: European social protections are now intertwined with the single market, so you can’t have the trade benefits without accepting substantial regulation.

Some on the centre-right who once accepted diminished sovereignty as the price of improved trade have turned against membership thanks to this extra burden of red tape. Even Jean-Claude Juncker, the current European Commission president, admitted this week that ‘one of the reasons that European citizens are stepping away from the European project is that we are interfering in too many domains of their private lives. And too many domains where the member states are better placed to take action and pass legislation.’ But there is littlechance of him doing much to fix the problem.

This volte-face by the British centre-right will have profound and lasting consequences, even if the nation votes to remain. It means that the next leader of the Tory party is more likely than not to be an ‘outer’ and that this referendum will not settle the issue in the way Cameron hoped it would. One Tory leaver points out that eight years after a Labour PM held a referendum on Europe and urged Britain to stay in, his party had a manifesto commitment to withdraw. Even if the Tories don’t follow such a dramatic course, it’s unlikely that it will take -another 40 years before we are once again asked to vote on our membership of the EU.

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Show comments
  • NBeale

    We’ll see. Boris isn’t really an “outer” and I suspect quite a number of the other MPs backing leave are pandering to Tory activists rather than really believing we should become like Albania (as Gove has helpfully explained the Leave objective). People keep writing off Cameron and so far he has always won. I hope, and expect, he will do so this time as well.

    • Man on the Clapham omnibus

      Bullshit

      • 22-11-63

        Couldn’t have said it clearer myself!

      • 100

        And pigshit more apt.

    • JS

      Rubbish! Cameron is a pr man, that is all. He is so out of touch with the British public. The only reason he was voted in is he lied about being Eurosceptic. If he made his position clear he would not have been near PM post. Now we know who he really is and what he stands for, he will be out after the 24 June, and we will vote leave 🙂

    • wibbling

      Mr Gove has detailed the exact opposite. Can you not read? It is the stay trapped camp who are telling us we will revert to third world status.

      Ah, the desperation! The terror you must be feeling.

  • Don Reed

    Hi. Look for the roof to cave in on PM Cameron on or about April 30, 2016. Later he recovers nicely.

  • Frank

    “..Cameron could well lose his party” is a strange way of saying that Cameron’s party will sack him – whatever the outcome of the referendum.
    One could relate this back to all the little divergences between Cameron and his followers and the rest of his party – it comes down to Cameron and Crosby thinking that “brand” doesn’t matter and that you can chop and change your policies at will to suit every whim demonstrated by focus groups compared to the rest of the Conservative party who think that remaining true to core issues matters – this difference of opinion may also explain why Cameron has never managed to secure a significant electoral majority in two general elections and has instead had to use Project Fear to make up for inadequate political appeal.

    • Conway

      Cameron is at odds with his grassroots Conservatives. His misreading of Parliamentary party support for Brexit is nothing compared with the rift with the boots on the ground. Still, he thinks he doesn’t need the “little people” whom he dismisses as “turnip taliban”, “fruitcakes” and “gadflies”. The man is arrogant and has the reverse Midas touch.

  • Robert Shrubsole

    The nation apparently thinks highly of the queen and although it is a view I don’t share the fact is the EU would seem to reduce her status in that she will have to give precedence to the president of the EU. So it is logicl to me that all who are royalists and wish her to keep her preeminent status should vote to come out of the EU.

    • Pope Francis

      The Queen has zero impact on politics unlike the EU and if she tried to interfere the commons would remove her as head of state.

    • 100

      The Queens sad legacy will be that she was THE British Monarch that precided over the dissolution of the United Kingdom as a sovereign state. She should be buried in an unmarked grave in a corner of Hanover.

    • red2black

      There are plenty of EU countries with Royal families.

    • Matthe

      yes, the queen and royal family will be sent to st. helena by the next president of the EU!

  • paul

    Cameron is a TURD he would sell his Granny for a farthing and if he is worried about his legacy then great as he will remembered like Thatcher as a PM who had no regard for the poor, needy & disabled in our Society he is going down in history as the architect of The Politics of Fear and The King of the Political U-turn !!!

    • Bob-B

      You need a full stop after ‘TURD’.

    • Bruno

      Indeed, Thatcher was a war monger.

      • Brian Jones

        What a ridiculous statement , Thatcher took us to war in defence of a British Territory that had been invaded which is the duty of any government.

  • Tigger123456

    Thank heavens for the common sense of the British people!

    We’re not stupid. We’re not impressed by frothing Tory backbenchers lining up with Vladimir Putin, Marine Le Pen, George Galloway and David Icke, saying they know better than the IMF, HMT, Bank of England, Obama and 8 former US Treasury secretaries, the Chinese, the EU, British scientists & researchers, 80% of SMEs, markets, fishing and farming industries, charities & NGOs, environmentalists, human rights activists, the FT, all serious economists, the Green Party, SNP, Plaid, Mebyon Kernow and loads of other groups and people who know what they’re talking about.

    (Oh, and Labour.)

    No-one normal gives a monkeys whether it’s a hollow
    victory for David Cameron or
    not.

    • 22-11-63

      Did you say you weren’t stupid?

    • JS

      Exactly because the British public is not stupid they will vote leave 🙂

    • Lawrence James.

      Add Gove and Johnson to your list, each bent on splitting their party to advance their careers just as Disraeli did over the Corn Laws: his reward as nearly thirty years in the wilderness for himself and his party.

      • wibbling

        Ah, so two people speaking common sense without any interest in career advancement are wrong? I understand you’re frightened, but it is those who have something to gain who want us to remain poor. Not those with nothing to lose.

        I know the Left can’t understand this, but it is time you did.

    • Mike

      You forgot to mention the rest of the world like the Commonwealth, British 80% SMEs and the EEA and of course the British people who instigated this referendum. The Bank of Engalnd and the Chinese have said they do not have an offcial posistion. If we stay in the EU we will get EVER mounting problems, they WILL not stop, !. Instead we will have Criminals, Extremists, Terrorists, Immigrationists, Spying community, Anti Brits and Foreign Multinationals to look forward to.and aligning themselves with the Pro EU lobby. I wonder which one the British and Irish prefer to be with? That’s the point of Brexit – the stopping of institutions being nobbled by outsiders….like you.

      • Pope Francis

        My main worry is more power going to the EU like wealth fair and pensions. Seriously though if we vote stay and it comes to a point where nearly all power is in brussels then I’m joining the rebel alliance to help defeat Darth Merkel and Emperor Juncker.

        • wibbling

          The EU is a communist regime. Eventually, as power starts to fall away, production falls, poverty becomes endemic and the population – because of their fanatic immigration policies – will invoke some crazed law which ensures that resistance is crushed and people then start getting killed, then we get black bagging and at that point the communists, happy and safe in their steel and glass eating and quaffing scarce resources will just wait for people to die out and claim this is a good thing.

          It’s quite simple: the EU is a failure. It was always going to be. The question is how many will it kill before we resolve the mess and yet again fix it? If we don’t know, it will be too late.

    • wibbling

      Well, we do. Each and every institution you quote has a specifi gain to be made by the UK remaining impoverished within the EU.

      No, serious economists are saying that there is risk on both sides, but the risk of staying in is known – things will get markedly worse.

      It’s up to you: deceive yourself with liars and charlatans, proven idiots, economic powers who get richer from our poverty or you can understand what you need to do for a rational future.

    • Little Black Censored

      Just to take one of that long list, did you really mean to include the fishing industry? Have you any idea what you are talking about?

  • Denis_Cooper

    “At Maastricht in 1991, John Major negotiated a British opt-out from the social chapter, only for Tony Blair to take us back into it after the 1997 election. By the time David Cameron came to renegotiate our terms of membership, reviving this opt-out was no longer a realistic option … ”

    Yes, well, that’s the problem with opt-outs, isn’t it? As the then Commission Vice-President Margot Wallstrom rather cryptically put it “an opt-out is also an opt-in”, it’s only a matter of time before a reluctant member state will fall into line with the new EU norm.

    http://www.europarl.europa.eu/sides/getDoc.do?pubRef=-//EP//TEXT+CRE+20070711+ITEMS+DOC+XML+V0//EN&language=EN

    “First of all, on the Charter of Fundamental Rights, the European Commission does not like opt-outs. We would have preferred not to have any opt-outs. But what was the real political choice here? It was a weakened charter without legal force or a charter that is legally binding for the EU institutions with an opt-out, or preserving the full text of the charter. Then, I prefer to have a charter which is legally binding, and an opt-out is also an opt-in so this is not cast in stone.”

    And indeed our government has since acknowledged that the charter is legally binding on the UK. in instances where it was not expected to be.

  • David Westwood

    I agree with the article, what happens after the referendum is as interesting as the referendum itself. If Cameron wins the vote (and it seems he will) all those disaffected voters will migrate towards UKIP in the same way votes in Scotland migrated to the SNP. At the last general election Cameron offered a referendum on the EU to fight off competition from UKIP. What will be offered at the next? If Cameron looses the referendum, there will probably be a Tory government in 2020, but if he wins it, it could be Labour. Cameron is in a loose, loose situation.

    • 100

      He’s going in 2017 anyway, he just wants to win the referendum to save some face on what has otherwise been a disastrous premiership.

    • Dacorum

      I agree but you need to correct your spelling to “lose, lose situation”.

  • Bluesman_1

    I, for one, hope we are never asked again; little point in asking when we have already left.

    Article 50!

  • Conway

    Barring a dramatic worsening of the migrant crisis or another eurozone emergency, the uncertainty inherent in leaving the EU will probably mean that most British voters will choose to maintain the status quo.” Unfortunately for the likes of you, most people are beginning to wake up to the fact that there is no such thing as the “status quo”. They look at the prospect of Turkey joining and realise that the EU will be different in a year’s time, let alone five or more, and that things will only get worse. The migrant crisis has not been solved and will only worsen and the euro needs another bailout. The uncertainty isn’t in leaving the EU, it’s in staying.

    • Just wait until June 24th – if we stay or leave the EU will take all the brakes off and go careering towards disaster in a way never seen before.

    • Sunset66

      Isn’t it great all you britnats thwarted by a project based on fear . Just great . Hopefully Scotland will cast enough votes to swing it to stay . I will laugh my socks off.

      Mind you its a once in a generation thing for you guys

      • 100

        Scotland will be irrelevant after either a remain or leave vote, it’s irrelevant to the destiny of the UK and to the EU it’s not only irrelevant but not even recognised.

        • Sunset66

          Miaow , it won’t be irrelevant if Wales Scotland and NI sway the vote to stay .
          It will be marvellous. Britnats thwarted and if you vote to leave another link in the chain to the UK will be broken

          Saor Alba

          • 100

            England will make the decision. And whatever the result Scotland will remain irrelevant for ever. Just a wee quaint little tourist Disney destination, with a lot of crime, jobless, troublesome immigrants and a tinpot wee lady first minister of silly walks with a bad wig.

          • Sunset66

            We shall see. But thanks for your good wishes

          • Tamerlane

            The Scots won’t sway the vote. Every GE, referendum, opinion poll etc is determined by Worcester woman and Nuneaton man, i/e middle England. The Celts are not in the game, never have been.

      • Tamerlane

        You can afford socks up there? Wow.

        • Sunset66

          Yes come up,and see us . We will give you a warm welcome

          • Tamerlane

            I’m already there.

          • Sunset66

            And you didn’t see anybody wearing socks ?
            Bet they all love you

          • Tamerlane

            I can only see the wee tops of your balding heads, it’s an English thing, we’re above you see.

          • Sunset66

            Awful

          • Tamerlane

            I’ll say.

  • Conway

    … it’s unlikely that it will take -another 40 years before we are once again asked to vote on our membership of the EU.” If we vote to Leave I expect we’ll be made to vote again in short order. If we vote to stay, we’ll never get another vote, we’ll have to wait for the evil empire to implode.

    • wibbling

      The thing is all we have to do to make that happen is wait for Greece to collapse again and then simply say no, we aren’t going to bail them out.

      • 100

        That’ll be as early as October

      • Tamerlane

        Cameron will bail them out, the quid pro quo for his so called ‘deal’ will be revealed once he has won his referendum and it’ll be high – there’s no such thing as a free lunch at the EU…. unless you’re directly employed by them of course!

    • Lady Magdalene

      We can all do our bit towards ensuring that happens. Don’t buy German cars; don’t holiday in Club Med.

  • amanuenensi

    There will be nothing hollow about this victory if it is to be so. The country will mature and take its rightful place as a leader of the European nations. There has been a difficult start to this century but standards of living have been rising across the globe for nearly 50 years, nowhere more than in Europe. What of the rest of the world? The US is exhausted and needs rebuilding away from the greed of its militarists, China, India,, South America and Africa are moving, but far from even the distant sight of the wealth that has been created over the last 60 years in this much maligned Europe. Scientific discovery on an unparalleled level, industrial excellence and innovation, magnificent infrastructure, widespread education and high quality health services are becoming European norms, without equal planet wide. What compares with Mercedes Benz, Ferrari, Bentley, Rolls Royce, where are the airliners the world wants engineered and manufactured, look at CERN, ESA, EIT, our climate change and sustainability research and practice, our rail and road networks, schools, universities and hospitals. Unequalled. Anywhere. This will be not the US or the Chinese century, it will be the European century. And if Mr cameron has honoured his word, given us our free choice, and managed to keep us is in this great and novel enterprise, the like of which has never been seen before in all history, he will have earned his keep and his legacy.

    • Pope Francis

      Leader of the European nations. Keep dreaming Germany calls the shots unfortunately

      • amanuenensi

        It is not unusual for a world class team to have a few members jealous of the captain. A poor reason to quit and go home. True enough though: for some, ego trumps intelligence.

        • wibbling

          There is nothing remotely ‘world class’ about Cameron’s government.

          We are not ‘going home’, we are leaving because the whole thing is a corrupt farce. Your ego is monumental. You’re showing no intelligence whatsoever.

          • amanuenensi

            The tone and substance of the comments above are precisely why the British public will soundly reject this referendum. Watch and learn.

          • 100

            The referendum can’t be rejected it’s going ahead 23 ,June. Its the EU that will be rejected by the people. Then hopefully supporters of the EU like yourself will either go quietly with it or be forcibly Ejected.

          • amanuenensi

            Remember the words: watch and learn.

          • 100

            Remember these words. Start packing!

          • amanuenensi

            ThaT is not going to happen, you nasty little thing. I’ll be in Great Britain and travelling on my EU passport for decades yet. But you, nasty little thing, are more than welcome to buzz off. And please take the rest of the Brexit pygmies with you.

          • 100

            You may not need to pack, you may be carried out with any luck.

        • Chamber Pot

          ‘World class’ team ? WTF Hollande, Mad Merkel, and Dave ? A parade of the shameless more like and WTF decided Merkel was Kapitan anyway ?

    • wibbling

      Is that why we keep getting defeated on every single case we question in the EU? What ‘leadership’ can we give when we’re nothing but a cash cow to the Eurocrats? We don’t get a say in anything. We are just an annoyance which causes paperwork while the commission overrules us and QMV ensures we lose out against the other nations – usually because we don’t want to give them tens of billions and they want us to pay them tens of billions.

      • red2black

        ‘Another weapon invented by communist fascists to control the people of Europe.’
        Extract from Mr Winston Churchill speaking in Zurich, 19th September 1946: “I am now going to say something that will astonish you. The first step in the re-creation of the European family must be a partnership between France and Germany. In this way only can France recover the moral leadership of Europe. There can be no revival of Europe without a spiritually great France and a spiritually great Germany. The structure of the United States of Europe, if well and truly built, will be such as to make the material strength of a single state less important. Small nations will count as much as large ones and gain their honour by their contribution to the common cause.” The full text of Mr Churchill’s speech: http://www.churchill-society-london.org.uk/astonish.html

    • Robbydot1

      I have rarely read such a lot of twaddle. You are either in total denial of the facts, or insane.

      • red2black

        There seem to be facts that support Remain and facts that support Leave. Also, facts may be contradictory, and people don’t always rely primarily on facts when making a decision.

        • Malcolm Stevas

          Perfectly true: look at all the people who vote Labour despite that Party’s proven economic illiteracy, and indeed all those who profess to be outraged by mass immigration yet vote consistently for the Labour and Conservative Parties responsible for it.

          • red2black

            I live in England. You say ‘outraged by mass immigration’, but most people I know distinguish between EU immigration and non-EU immigration, believing that both should be strictly controlled. I know only one person who thinks that there should be no immigration and that people should be repatriated. At present, the average debt among 15 to 24 year-olds is £12,000, and the government borrows around £2bn a week. Most people don’t know much about Economics, including me, but those amounts of money must be a concern to people who do.

          • Malcolm Stevas

            Not sure how to respond, since you make several separate points, most of which I didn’t mention… Distinguish between those 2 types of immigration, certainly. I”ve never wanted a complete ban on immigration and anyone who suggested such would be an oddball. Repatriation? This is actually quite popular with many, and depending how it was done I’d be willing to consider some form of this. Debt? It’s a bad thing, agreed. I and my family have no debts. The government’s borrowing is wildly excessive and should be curtailed. Er, will this do?

          • red2black

            For now, yes; but only just. (only kidding) A couple of weeks ago the ‘Tonight’ programme stated that Immigration was now the leading public issue with regard to the EU Referendum, which presumably favours Leave. I’m currently undecided and inclined to abstain.

          • Malcolm Stevas

            I really don’t think anyone should abstain in what is a vitally important decision about our continued future as a sovereign nation.

          • red2black

            It may be the general case that younger voters will support Remain, while older voters will support Leave.

          • Malcolm Stevas

            This is what everyone says, but how does it affect your voting, or not? I’m voting “Out” as an older person not simply because I’m older per se, but because being of a certain age means I recall all too clearly what life was like pre-EEC and because I’ve watched the EU and its UK apologists with increasing disgust for decades now.

          • red2black

            Well, that’s the difference. For younger people, things have always been pretty much the same, so there is no experienced comparison for them to make.

          • mohdanga

            test

          • mohdanga

            Why would a ban on immigration be bad? There’s already too many people. If skilled workers are needed then they can be admitted on specific work visas for specific period of time….permanent residence and citizenship can be decided at a later date if the skill set is still needed.
            Japan has basically no immigration, certainly not any of the enriching 3rd world type which the West is wallowing in and will be subsumed by. The current policy is unsustainable and criminal, given that the vast majority of people don’t want it.
            The UK has had very little immigration during its history, with the exception of the last 50 years when the multiculti, mass immigration farce was imposed, with all of its attendant problems. How did the UK manage to survive prior to this?

          • Malcolm Stevas

            Your closing para is spot on. I’d certainly restrict immigration to those few with special skills in short supply, the very highly qualified etc, complete fluency in English, and a demonstrable readiness to adopt our values without reservation. But a blanket ban on immigration is unnecessary and unwise – we just need to reduce that extra-EU figure of pushing 200,000 down to a few dozens/hundreds at most.

          • mohdanga

            Yes, it should be minimal at best, no extra housing, infrastructure, etc necessary for them. This idiocy that has been foisted on the West by white guilt liberals will destroy us.

    • 100

      Utter drivel

    • Lady Magdalene

      Outside the Euro (all the time it survives) we will lead nothing ….. but we’ll pay more and more towards it.

    • Freddythreepwood

      Who’s cooking dinner, Samantha?

  • wibbling

    It is odd that Cameron frames those wanting to leave as it being ‘their problem’ or because they want more power. That’s how *he* thinks. He has never considered that people want to leave the EU because it’s a horrific, nightmarish mess of communist fascists.

    The difficulty with people voting for the ‘status quo’ is that the EU has none. it is ardently, fervently frantic to force it’s own agenda regardless fo the damage. If we do not leave, things will get worse.

    It is time the truth was published widely and forcefully. We must leave the EU. European nations are falling apart. It is a corrupt, high unemployment, poor, inefficient mess that does not work. We must leave the EU.

    • Yes, voting to stay is voting for change. The EU is about to completely and utterly change in ways barely conceived by the average man or woman in the street. And all these changes are bad.

    • red2black

      ‘It is time the truth was published widely and forcefully.’ Publish it here.

      • CockneyblokefromReading

        Do you mean the falsified immigration figures? The official figures have it as one a minute…trotting through customs…one a minute…24 hours a day…one a minute.

        Is it?

        • red2black

          1,440 immigrants a day. Do you mean the official figures are falsified, or is this a true average number for each day?

          • CockneyblokefromReading

            The number of non-British people coming into Britain is (officially) 1,452 a day…one a minute…530,000 people a year:
            http://www.migrationwatchuk.org/statistics-net-migration-statistics
            But, of course, it’s way higher than that, so it’s more than one a minute.

          • red2black

            Thanks for the link.

          • Jeffrey Vernon

            Over half of these are EU, and we have a right to go to any of their countries. Of the rest, 60% are students who will leave after 1,2 or 3 years (and bring plenty of dosh with them, incidentally). The net immigration is about 160K a year – a city the size of Kensington!

          • CockneyblokefromReading

            Do you have problems with absorbing and understanding? They are IMMIGRANTS. Definition of ‘immigrant’:
            “a person who comes to live permanently in a foreign country”
            I quite clearly stated that the number of non-British people coming into Britain is (officially) 1,452 a day…one a minute…530,000 people a year. Non-British people are immigrants. It matters no one jot, Jeffrey, that half of these are ‘EU’! And their ‘right’ to move to Britain doesn’t stop them being classed as immigrants – even by this government. And neither can you be sure that students will leave! What I gave was a fact, Jeffrey. You may not like facts, but that doesn’t stop them being facts.

          • Jeffrey Vernon

            It is not a fact that 530000 people a year are taking up permanent residence in Britain, which is what I think you were trying to imply. When EU migration took off from 1994 onwards, it was seen as a way of reducing the number of blacks and asians arriving. It turns out that we don’t like Poles, Irish or Germans (numerically the biggest groups of Europeans) any more than Indians and Pakistanis. I wonder what they think about us?

          • CockneyblokefromReading

            Jeffrey, answer this: Why is your definition of ‘immigrant’ different to everyone else’s? I’ve already given you the definition, but you can Google it yourself…and the Government, yes, this one, who is letting virtually everyone in, even classes them as ‘immigrants’. Why do you keep thinking it means something else? Your earlier reply even intimated that as they are EU citizens, it didn’t somehow count! I mean, Jesus, Jeffrey, what’s wrong with you, mate? I say again; 530,000 IMMIGRANTS settled in Britain last year…one a minute. FACT!

            And by the way, you cannot say, “It is not a fact that 530,000 people a year are taking up permanent residence in Britain” as you don’t know that yet! So the statement is plainly false. Can you comprehend that?

          • Bill Davies

            As a fervent swivel eyed xenophobic racist, I,m sure you did,nt mean to say,” When EU immigration took off from 1994 onwards, it was seen as a way of reducing the number of blacks and Asians arriving !! O,h yeh, says who?
            As a UkIP supporter, we have NEVER distinguished race or colour as a barrier to entry into the United Kingdom!!!
            We do however want controlled immigration no matter what religion,creed, or colour you are, and if you come, you can speak the Queens English, are willing to integrate, and be prepared to swear allegiance to the Queen.
            If you cannot conform to any of the above, and your not prepared to work for a living, my advice is, you stay in your mud hut and grouch, because your no bloody good to us!!

          • Jeffrey Vernon

            UKIP was only a few days old in 1994, and not an important voice in the politics of immigration at the time. It is not a controversial observation that plenty of people, from gov ministers downwards, either fear blacks and asians, or attribute this fear to other people. Those people believe(d) that the Poles, Irish and Germans who now constitute the largest minorities immigrating to the EU, would prove more acceptable. I hope that we leave the EU so that my scientific research institute can hire the best people from anywhere, including Romania, Ethiopia, India, Russia or Korea; at the moment we have to ‘prove’ to the home office that no-one in the whole of the EU can do the job before we can offer it to someone else. If we do manage to bring them in, they are endlessly harassed by the visa authorities, and often sent home at very short notice with no explanation.

          • Bill Davies

            In that case, my heart goes out to you! Yet over the past two or three years, UKIP has been consistently castigated by those not intelligent enough to argue their case,
            I have never seen colour, rather, ability and intelligence, yet because I support a particular party I,m classed as racist!!
            Am I a racist when I,m in a trench helping people restore their water supply after a hurricane? Am I a racist when I help those same people get their main road operational? If you believe all that,s either printed or spoken you would be permanently in a spin, which is why politicians are so damned good at it!!
            On a personal level I wish you well, but fear you have a mountain to climb. Not many have the ability to see beyond the colour to the man!!
            Best of luck!!

    • gunnerbear

      Ahh…but the UK In/Out vote will trigger changes….the thinkers like Duff have made that quite clear….the EU can no longer operate as a ‘loose grouping of nations’ – it has to be a nation state or nothing. Personally, I’d rather the UK took no part in a USE that but there is no doubt that is the direction of travel. All the ‘soft sovereignty’ issues have been pretty much settled – now for the EU, it’s the ‘hard sovereignty’ of nations that will have been to addressed e.g tax, military power, a federal legal system etc. Already, the EZ core of nations is becoming the major block in the EU – the Germans are getting used to that and understanding what a fully federal EU state means. Likewise the Visegrad 4 Group – they’ll have to deal with their own situations – I note that for all the shouting from the V4 group, the HOGs meeting passed the EU – Turkey deal unanimously and of course the V4 members get way more out of the EU than they pay in…..so they’ll have to decide if the want to be part of the EU or not. Being much smaller nations economically than the UK puts them at even more of a disadvantage – just as the Greek population realised when despite all the spiel they’ve stayed in the EZ and the EU. I would just say as well, look at how long the US took to reach a ‘state of Union’ and how even today there are still battles between state legislatures and federal govt. as to the rights and reaches of both.

  • Father Todd Unctious

    Why would Cameron feel like the Duke of Wellington? Wellington was involved in a life or death armed struggle that had preoccupied Europe for 23 years. Yet another of the Franco- German bollod lettings that hsu Ted our continent until the Treaty of Rome licked them into a political embrace that we should be very reluctant to unwind.

  • Tommo

    Cameron has already lost most of his party. The local election results will be very interesting.

    • thomas_paine2

      Yes, especially with the man leading the other lot.

  • Jab

    I feel the EU is not going to last anyway but we are finished anyway with mass immigration having taken place there is no Britain anymore.Its probable too late for us and for Europe with or without the EU.

  • alfredo

    I’m convinced that only by some fiddle can the Remain side win.
    In that case, what is Plan B for the Leavers? I haven’t seen it discussed.
    I take it that we’re not going to simply say ‘oh dear’ and prepare to meet our fate and that of our country and our grandchildren with a stiff upper lip.
    I take it that the fight will be taken to the next level. But what is that?

    • 100

      I’d tell you but it’s too shocking for publication.

    • Sunset66

      You are going to huff and puff and blow the UK down
      When you lose nothing will happen except you will go home

      • alfredo

        You mean like the Marxists did when the Soviet empire collapsed? Never heard from them again, did we? I wonder what became of their narrative.

    • Mary Ann

      I expect your grand-children want to stay, most of their generation do.

      • alfredo

        My grandchildren when they arrive will be going to public (i.e., fee-paying) schools, so may just stand a chance of escaping the brainwashing which has been going on in state schools for the last half century.

  • evad666

    So the proto Communist EU is an American Construct we dare nor leave even as it proceeds to infantilize National Agencies?

  • Andrew

    How different Obama’s claim that the EU magnifies British values & law, from the reality. In the real world Germany has been following a policy of not wanting a “British Europe”, whilst the EU legal system is French Napoleonic code based. Its a shame Obama did not stay to debate his views point by point rather than broadcast unchallenged.

  • jack

    “David Cameron is heading for a hollow victory in the EU referendum”

    The only thing hollow is the hole he has managed to dig for himself.

  • 1234567890

    It has never been Cameron’s victory or loss; the moneyed puppeteers who created & control him have engineered the EU. Greedy, arrogant, control freaks have been pulling the strings. Leave gives hope; remain is a death of a thousand cuts.

  • Lady Magdalene

    Cameron and the anti-Sovereignty LibCons have the option he should have taken in the first place.

    They can admit they aren’t really Conservatives and join/create a new Liberal Party with the liberal half of the LibDems. They’ll be far happier and they won’t be lying to the British electorate about their beliefs any longer.

    I continue to hope and pray that Cameron isn’t heading for a hollow victory and is defeated by the British people who want their country’s independence restored.

    He has not served this country well. We need rid of him and his fellow anti-democrats.

    • Chamber Pot

      I am a natural Tory and he is the only Prime Minister I would willingly pay a thousand quid for the privilege of punching in the chops.

      A complete weasel.

      • TurnedOutNiceAgain

        Maybe John Major at £500

  • Bill Fitzgerald

    If Cameron wins I would suggest that many conservatives will abandon the party. A new party of the right formed out of UKIP and conservatives could emerge. Many of my conservative friends say they will never vote for the tory party in its present form ever again. Cameron has lost all credibility.

    • thomas_paine2

      We’ll still be stuck in the EU for years to come, so UKIP and anti-EU Tories will be whistling into the wind.

      • amanuenensi

        I am certain that will happen. UKIP and the anti-EU tories have a democracy problem. For some reason they think they are right whatever happens and they will not accept any decision that goes against them. All it means in the long run is obscurity and bitterness while the rest of the country gets on with it. Stale stuff really.

        • thomas_paine2

          A lot of anti-EU and wavering voters will opt for the ‘safer’ option and see coming out too much of a risk.
          (Not that it needs to be) I won’t believe Britain is out until the morning after but remain pessimistic.

        • Malcolm Stevas

          That’s a strange thing to say, remarkably anti-democratic in fact. I and a great many others have been thoroughly convinced for many years that the EU is a bad thing and we should leave: if Labour wins a General Election, do we cease to be of a conservative persuasion? Of course not. If the referendum vote is to stay, does that invalidate our anti-EU opinions formulated very carefully over a long period? Of course not. You might be keen to dump a thousand years of sovereign independence but fortunately your view is not shared by perhaps half the population.

      • Malcolm Stevas

        It would certainly be bad news, but everything would depend on what happened subsequently in UK politics: all it takes for us to leave, contrary to the scary predictions of “Remainers”, is an Act of Parliament to repeal the European Communities Act 1972. Given the right makeup in Parliament, which could reflect an awful lot of anti-EU discontent, then….

    • Mary Ann

      Tories join ukip split the Tory vote and Labour win the next election.

  • thomas_paine2

    Looks like the Tory Party will split whatever the referendum result, good! And DC will get the full credit for it, good!

  • Pretty_Polly

    Hello,

    My name is David Cameron of Brussels and Panama and my aim is to destroy Britain as you know and love it.

    That is why I have admitted over 750,000 migrants and asylum seekers in the last 12 months alone, why I support eastern extension of the EU and why I have done virtually nothing to stop illegals entering the country and remaining forever. I will of course repeat these policies this year and every year during my premiership.

    Up and down the country, I am told that my plans are working perfectly as people find they are becoming ‘Strangers Where They Live’ http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/immigration/9831912/I-feel-like-a-stranger-where-I-live.html and I am delighted my Defence Minister, Michael Fallon, has told me that our towns and cities are being enrichingly ‘swamped with immigrants’ http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/oct/26/british-towns-swamped-immigrants-michael-fallon-eu

    As the ‘Heir to Blair’ and Blairmore, I am proud to be continuing the pro immigration policies adopted by my close friends in the Labour Party and to be able to develop such ideas to extinguish ‘Britishness’ wherever it may be found. That is why I have abolished many of the planning rules in order to build huge anonymous new towns and cities in what was the unnecessary and socially divisive English countryside http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/04/16/plans-for-thousands-of-new-homes-threaten-green-belt-areas/

    I will soon be holding the long awaited confirmation of my views and opinions that Britain should remain an EU member forever and I will personally ensure that the Remain campaign is full of lies, threats and propaganda to obtain the highly desirable Remain outcome, thereby wiping the floor with a blonde haired mop. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boris_Johnson

    As you will understand from the foregoing, I am extremely excited about the forthcoming abolition of Britain and ‘Britishness’ by my friends in the European Union who have assured me that a new name has already been decided for these very small inconsequential islands..

    Consequently, to further the re-writing of British history and the destruction of British traditions, they have chosen ‘EU Sector North West’ which must now be written below your postcode or your mail will no longer be delivered.

    God Save The President of the EU Commission. Rule Jean Claude Juncker.

    Yours sincerely

    David Cameron

    Governor General EU NW – Designate.

    • Robert Shrubsole

      AN EXCELLENT STATEMENT-I AM GOING TO PUT YOUR NAME FORWARD FOR THE NOBEL PRIZE FOR YOUR EXCELLENT COMMON SENSE

      • Pretty_Polly

        Mine or Dave’s.. ?

        Lol..

      • Mary Ann

        Polly radical, do you work for leave eu? come to think of it, are you Pretty Polly as well?

        • Robert Shrubsole

          what’s a polly radical-i don’t personally work for leave but to me remain is a disastrous choice for a great many reason. Frankly I have not too sure sure whether you agree with my reply to your comment but I assumed it was a send up of Cameron’s position.

          • Mary Ann

            Crossed wires at discus, when I clicked on your profile it came up with Polly radical’s. Actually it conjures up a vision of microchips with crossed wires.

            No I don’t agree with your comment, I think Pretty Polly is wrong. We should stay in the EU.

          • Robert Shrubsole

            so you were saying the opposite to what you mean so you were being ironic. Fair enough but I read as a straight sentiment of what you felt about cameron and I agree total with the interpretation I gave to your words. O.K one up to you.

    • Mary Ann

      Talk about twisting the figures completely ignoring the people who left Britain, and the people who came from outside the EU who were the majority. Leaving the will not affect most migration.

      • Pretty_Polly

        Oh you mean that the British electorate does not want, and never has wanted, mass immigration.

        Yes, YouGov agree with you there..

        https://yougov.co.uk/news/2015/08/06/support-radical-left-and-right/

        • Jeffrey Vernon

          But British business would like to import labour from everywhere – including the EU. If we leave (as I hope we do), employers will be able to nominate workers from France, Romania, India, Korea, Mexico…there will not be an “EU preference” rule as we have at present.

          • Pretty_Polly

            Tough on them. The British people are against all that.

  • Bruno

    Even Before the Vote is voted in The Pro EU News Media are calling it a victory for David Cameron?
    Yeah i dont know about a victory.

    • Mary Ann

      Looks like the anti EU media is also calling it a victory for Cameron.

  • JSC

    It’s going to be worse than a hollow victory, he’s going to be a laughing stock and taint the Tories as badly as Blair did Labour. When his “reforms” don’t even slightly work, he has no defence. When the next EU state collapses followed by the next bailout, it was his campaign that made us hand over the money. When all of the EU’s dirty little secrets about what they’ve been doing to these refugees and indeed what the refugees have been doing to europeans, comes to light, he was the one that wanted to be part of that evil empire. It won’t be forgotten, it’s just a shame there’s no parliamentary opposition to any of it – except from in his own party. The Scot’s Noddy Party and the Benefits Party are worthless on the issue, erstwhile anti-capitalists the slightest flash of Euro-cash has silenced them for good.

    And as for Obama, that walking catastrophe for US foreign policy, he should remember the difference in the reactions of the UK v.s. (say) France when the US put out a call against Saddam. If we vote to stay, the US-UK ‘special relationship’ will be as special as the US-Cuba one. I’ll give us 15 more years of being in the EU and the rest of the EU states will start to pressure us into leaving five eyes…

  • stuartMilan

    what an extraordinary we are faced with, that a victory for the British PM will mean the destruction of the United Kingdom

    • Alf Alpha

      Only the Tory party could achieve that.

      • Alf Alpha

        Actually that’s wrong. Only half the Tory party could achieve that.

      • stuartMilan

        they’ve been running this scam since 1973, and it’s about time their mendacity caught up with them

    • Mary Ann

      No: A loss for the PM will mean the destruction of the UK as Wales Scotland and Ireland all depart, leaving the little Englanders to revel in their own mess.

      • mohdanga

        So, does every other country that doesn’t want to be ruled by unelected bureaucrats deemed to be “little”???

      • stuartMilan

        a cheap ad hominem? you don’t really have a case for staying in the EU, do you?

  • Alf Alpha

    Great Podcast. The Spectator trio consistently give the best analysis of all.

    • Pretty_Polly

      The Spectator – A safe and welcome haven for a huge number of Daily Telegraph refugees..

      • 1234567890

        A gentle reminder to some who may not know; the Barclay brothers own both.

        • Pretty_Polly

          Oh I know.

          I expect we are all on borrowed time whereupon everyone will up sticks once again to Breitbart London.

          Some of us are there already 🙂

          • SextusEmpiricus

            …even if it is rather Samuel Scheidt?

          • Pretty_Polly

            Breitbart would be the last stronghold if The Speccy closes comments.

          • SextusEmpiricus

            But what good is that if it’s utterly Scheidt?

          • Pretty_Polly

            Breitbart’s fine and it’s great that it’s not PC.

        • Mary Ann

          And they keep their money in a tax haven.

  • John Carins

    Cameron could have opted to campaign for “out”. That way he could have saved his country and party. His assessment and appreciation of the situation is wrong. Therefore his credibility as a leader is totally undermined. The quicker we are rid of him and those pro-EU Tories the better.

    • Pretty_Polly

      What makes you think Dave actually cares about or wants to ‘save his country’?

      All the evidence points to the exact opposite..

      • John Carins

        I agree. He describes sovereignty as an “illusion”. He is a two-faced disgrace.

        • Pretty_Polly

          ‘I will soon be holding the long awaited confirmation of my views and opinions that Britain should remain an EU member forever and I will personally ensure that the Remain campaign is full of lies, threats and propaganda to obtain the highly desirable Remain outcome, thereby wiping the floor with a blonde haired mop. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boris_Johnson

          • John Carins

            An EU Orwell’s boot in the face forever.

          • Pretty_Polly

            ‘In the end, the EU will make European unorthodoxy and anti EU thought crime literally impossible, because they will withdraw the words required to express it.

            Every concept and human interaction which could possibly be required will be rigidly controlled with meaning precisely defined by EU rules and all non approved alternatives extinguished and soon forgotten. The process will still be continuing long after the British pro EU faux referendum is nothing more than ancient history.

            Every year fewer and fewer words, and the range of consciousness always a little smaller.

            Even now, of course, according to some senior EU officials, there is no reason or excuse for having anti EU thoughts. It is merely a question of self-discipline, reality-control.

            But in the end there won’t be any need even for that, because through double speak and newthink, the EU will effectively enter our minds to prevent it and control us all..’

          • John Carins

            Indeed. How much closer to the edge do the British people need to be to see the precipice of the EU trap? Stepping back to preserve our hard fought freedoms must be the right and sane option.

          • Pretty_Polly

            Imho, if mass immigration had not occurred since soon after WW2, the outcome would be a resounding vote to Leave.

          • Mary Ann

            Keep taking the tablets.

          • Pretty_Polly

            Why when those were prescribed for you.

        • Mary Ann

          This country is run by the forth estate and the Current Bun reader.

          • rosebery

            Fourth. Currant.

    • Mary Ann

      Cameron is right, staying is the only sensible thing to do.

      • mohdanga

        Why?

  • Polly Radical

    I see that the majority of French voters now want Britain to leave the EU because we’re making the system ‘too British.’

    Doesn’t that say it all?

    • John Carins

      Perhaps we would say that it is too German?

      • Polly Radical

        Maybe the Belgians think it’s too Italian.

        • John Carins

          Belgians are too phlegmatic to think that.

    • red2black

      So much for us not influencing anything.

    • diqi

      I believe the phrase was “too English” which is not the same, remember that the French and Scots are old allies.

    • Jeffrey Vernon

      The EU is now more ‘anglo-saxon’ because the governments of Britain, France and Germany have all become hostile to the Commission since the early 1990s. Control had already passed to the European Council by 1994 – and this is composed of the elected leaders, rather than the career technocrats who used to run the show. The European Parliament, meanwhile, is as irrelevant as ever.

  • Chamber Pot

    The Remainiacs will not win unless they resort to voter fraud.

    • Sunset66

      Oh dear seems you are getting your excuses in early

      • Kandanada

        Probably just referencing history, whether that be Tower Hamlets, postal voting or Labour’s strategy of disseminating information to “community leaders” who then endorse the candidate to the often non English-speaking electorate.

        • tenbelly

          Why the ethnics that are already here would want to remain defeats me.
          More and more immigration will only increase the tensions in their communities and could lead to open conflict.
          Aleppo anyone?

          • Mary Ann

            The Ethnics don’t come from the EU, the EU is predominately white Christian, the ethnics come from the Middle East, the Commonwealth and China. Leaving the EU will make it more likely we will bring in more ethnics, someone’s got to do the work that the Brits don’t want to do. Just as Powell bought in the Caribbeans. Think about it.

          • Kandanada

            Interesting that you mention the work Brits don’t want to do.

            In the fifties there was concern that there weren’t enough workers to undertake all the jobs available in the UK.

            I speak to many older (old, bluntly) people and they explain this to me. However, being aware of press and government manipulation of the masses, I have started asking people what evidence they saw of this. For example, did they remember waiting for a bus that never came? Did they go to the shops only to find they were closed? Were their children unable to go to school because of a shortage of teachers? Were there many companies going out of business because they couldn’t get the staff?

            Resoundingly, there seems to be no anecdotal evidence of a shortage of workers.

            Many parrotings of my second paragraph, but not a class, shop, business or department which struggled because of staff shortages.

            I wonder if it was a lie?

            I wonder if it was really because figures can be generated to show that increased immigration increases GDP, which allows the country to run for another few years on borrowed money?

          • Mary Ann

            Most of us who were alive in the 50s were children then, memories from 60 years ago, are not reliable, the days were always sunny. It’s funny sometimes I am sure I remember something, absolutely sure of it and when I read up about it, I find that I was wrong, and I don’t think my memory is any worse than others of my age. You wouldn’t know if a bus didn’t come, they were always late and then came in threes. Or at least that was how the joke went.

          • Kandanada

            Surely one, if they were old enough, would remember the country grinding to a halt because of an acute shortage of workers? If they couldn’t remember that, could we conclude there was no shortage?

          • Mary Ann

            So what reason do you think that Powell invited all those people from the Caribbean to come here?

          • Jeffrey Vernon

            If you were a Home Counties child in the 1950s, you would have had no idea about the state of transport in London, or mills in Bradford, or hospitals in Birmingham, or car factories in Cowley. The fact is that there were chronic shortages of labour throughout the war, when migrants were first brought in large numbers from the colonies to fell timber, and work as ground crews in the military (mostly ‘out of sight’ of the general populace); and again after the war when a reconstruction boom began, and the NHS was founded. Transport, textiles, catering and health were the main industries, often in low paid and shiftwork occupations. For the same reasons, France imported a lot of N Africans, and Germany a lot of Turks. Enoch Powell in 1963 led the campaign to recruit 18,000 doctors from India; a lot of GP surgeries were understaffed.

          • Kandanada

            True, but we need the immigration to provide the Mickey Mouse figures to create the Mickey Mouse GDP report to allow us to borrow the Mickey Mouse money that keeps our Mickey Mouse establishment in political office.

          • mohdanga

            That’s about it. Bring in a million non-working, social benefit sucking, culture destroying enrichers, borrow billions to fund this, then claim “an increase in GDP due to immigration”!!!

    • Mary Ann

      And no doubt you will blame it on the postal vote of the millions living in France and Spain, only the stupid ones will vote leave, and there is at least one stupid one, he is going to vote leave because he “doesn’t like Muslims and blacks” his words, not mine, but just what I would expect from an Express reader.

      • Chamber Pot

        I must speak to Nick Griffin and tell him how offensive his views are and that he must self censor to avoid hurting the feelings of the sensitive and censorious in this ‘safe space’ !

      • mohdanga

        So one is “stupid” for having the temerity to want to control their own destiny. You are deluded.

        • Mary Ann

          Ummm, if you read my comment carefully you will see that I am talking about Britons LIVING in France and Spain, in fact if Britain chooses to leave the EU then they will have no control over their destiny at all, apart from coming home, because Britain will not longer have any say about what happens in Europe.
          He is stupid to risk his future in France because he doesn’t like Muslims and blacks coming to Britain. He is elderly, his health care comes via the EU treaty and our Muslims and blacks don’t come from the EU. Leave wins, and he may not be in control of his destiny, he will become a foreigner in the land where he chooses to live, probably have his state pension frozen as well.

          • Jeffrey Vernon

            But the same thing would happen if I went to live in, say, Australia – different country, different rules, different insurance arrangements. The Euro Health Insurance Card does not in any case guarantee free (much less equivalent) treatment in all countries of the EEA (and it is not an EU instrument).

          • Mary Ann

            Yes of course Australia is different, if you want to retire to Australia you need a generous index linked private pension, but at the moment ordinary people can retire to France and Spain because the British government cannot freeze their state pensions (which always seems very mean, after all they have paid as much for them as everyone else.) And, of course, State health care comes care of the EU treaty, so you don’t need to pay for private health care unless of course you choose to live in a country where everyone has to pay anyway. In France everyone, except the very poor, have to pay a top up with covers about one third of the cost, the rest comes from the state. Actually there is also a problem with double taxation, which the EU treaty solves, but I don’t know much about that. The EHIC card only provides emergency cover, for holidays and short stays, I am talking about people who live there and sign into the system. that takes them out of the British system and then they need an EHIC to obtain emergency health care in Britain. If they want to return to Britain permanently then they have to apply to join one of the requirements would be to prove residence in Britain.

  • Dacorum

    Cameron is finished whatever the result. And so is Osborne.

    The extremely partisan, project fear campaign Cameron and Osborne are leading is alienating huge numbers of Tory supporters who, by and large, are Brexit supporters. If the Remain side wins, they will not forgive him and will support a leadership challenge from Johnson/Gove that will sweep them from office.

    And if Brexit wins, Cameron will last about 30 seconds, as Ken Clarke rightly said.

    • Pretty_Polly

      I doubt Dave could give a damn provided he keeps Britain in the EU and does his duty for Jean Claude and Angela..

      • Mary Ann

        Does his duty to his country.

        • Pretty_Polly

          Of course not.

          • Mary Ann

            Of course.

          • Pretty_Polly

            Not.

        • goodsoldier

          The EU Empire.

        • JohnGalt

          this lefty is a troll don’t waste your time on her.

          • Mary Ann

            Oh, so yet another one who cannot stand anyone having a different opinion, having doubts yourself? Still my vote counts as much as yours.

          • JohnGalt

            I don’t care about the votes comrade and I am not delusional as you by thinking that popular vote is the only thing that matters (Hitler won 88%, none of your beloved comrades can even dream of it). I just expressed a fact and I don’t give a damn to your irrational ideas as I myself wasted long time to discuss with someone who cannot understand anything. I just wanted to save some times of those who want to think. Good Luck and as said ignored from now!

          • Mary Ann

            OK, that’s not a problem for me. What are you going to do when I respond to your comments?

    • gunnerbear

      ” If the Remain side wins, they will not forgive him and will support a leadership challenge from Johnson/Gove that will sweep them from office.” And the Great British Electorate who’ve vote to remain in the EU may not take it very well to see one group of Blues remove ‘their winner’ from office…..it would also end the Conservative Party as a unified party for ever.

      • JohnGalt

        don’t give a damn as the tories are not different with the reds any more. true tories should come.

      • Dacorum

        It isn’t the “Great British Electorate” that decide who should be the leader of the Conservative Party.

        The majority of Conservative Party MPs think we are better off out of the EU, as does the majority of Conservative party members. Cameron/Osborne could survive winning the referendum if it wasn’t for the fact that they have already destroyed the unity of the Conservative Party by the biased and extremely partisan nature of their campaign and by the use of public money to promote the Remain case in the most one sided way possible.

        • gunnerbear

          I’ve not made myself clear……….if DC and GO win, the duo will have won the vote to remain in the EU and have the backing of the electorate. The electorate, in the long term, tend to punish parties that install a new PM via an internal coup d’etat. The Blue Outers – who would have lost the EU Referendum would, by deposing DC & GO, in effect be telling all those who voted In to ‘f**k off and do one….’ because the Outers couldn’t live with the fact that the Blue In faction were victorious. In addition, when before the GE in ’15, HMG said that it would grant the Referendum Vote, HMG made it crystal clear that HMG would not be taking a neutral position – not even in the most wishful thinking of the Outers could HMG said to have said it would be neutral …. ….and the fact that HMG is not neutral was pretty much following the convention of the Scottish Indie vote where HMG said it would grant the vote but to campaign for the Scots to stay………just like HMG granted the vote in the ’70s but made it clear it was campaigning to stay in the EU (or EEC if you prefer). Respectfully, you are seeing the EU vote through the prism of Blue party lines – where as the In / Out vote is an issue that crosses party lines and political positions…….that’s why Galloway and Nigel F., Michael Gove and Kate Hoey can be on the same side in the same way that the two then giants of parliamentary democracy -Powell & Benn – could campaign together back in the ’70s.

          • Dacorum

            You seem to think that, if Cameron wins the referendum, he has the support of the British public to remain in office pushing through the Conservative Party manifesto or breaking his manifesto, whatever he chooses to do. That is simply not true. Whatever the percentage of people that vote to remain, the majority of those people will not be Conservative supporters, they would not dream of ever voting Conservative and they would love to see the back of Cameron and Osborne as soon as possible.

            “The electorate, in the long term, tend to punish parties that install a new PM via an internal coup d’état”.

            That is not borne out by recent history. There was a leadership challenge on Margaret Thatcher that resulted in John Major winning the GE of 1992 when it was widely thought she would lose in 1992. John Major in turn faced a leadership challenge after splitting the party on Europe of his own from John Redwood who fought under the slogan of “No change, no chance”. John Major won that vote and the result was that he led the Conservative party to its biggest ever defeat in 1997 and the Conservatives were out of office for 13 years or 18 years if you discount the coalition years. John Redwood has right – without a change at the top, the Conservatives had no chance in 1997 and no chance of government for a generation.

            Morale of the story – if you have an unpopular leader, ditch him/her. Have you not noticed how the ratings for Cameron and Osborne have fallen since the campaign began?

            Cameron also said that he did not get a worthwhile deal from his negotiations, which he clearly failed to get, he would campaign to leave the EU. He lied. He also said that, whether we stayed in or left, we had a bright future but you wouldn’t think so from his doom laden predictions in project fear and the totally dishonest treasury paper that we would be worse off in 2030 if we left the EU. He could hardly be more dishonest. He is not so much campaigning as copying Goebbels who said that if you tell a lie and repeat it often enough, people will come to believe it.

            I am fully aware that the Leave campaign crosses party lines – I am not a supporter of the Conservative Party having voted UKIP – whilst the remain campaign represents the establishment and its newest member, the turncoat Jeremy Corbyn. What everybody in the Leave campaign has in common is that they are all patriots who think a democratic country should make, interpret and enforce all their own laws through their own institutions, just as we did for centuries before we joined the EEC.

  • CockneyblokefromReading

    If we vote to stay in – we’re finished. I firmly believe that. We will be completely and utterly finished, as a nation. The incredible overcrowding we in the South East (here in my town, especially) will just get worse and worse. Racial and religious tension will worsen. We will be (and feel) less empowered. We will carry on dishing out £19 million a day to other EU countries, like confetti. That will be £25 million a day in a very short time.

    THIS IS MADNESS. We must vote Leave, for crying out loud.

    • Pretty_Polly

      Surely the destruction of the nation state and national identity was always the principle aim of the EU and Dave and his cabinet ministers are fully complicit with that aim because that is what they actually want?

      • CockneyblokefromReading

        I can’t buy into that. I can’t bring myself to believe in any conspiracy theories, and I see no evidence for it. What I do see is incompetence and unintelligence. I know he said that he can’t wait for the day we have a Muslim PM (or something along those lines), but he wouldn’t say that if what he was planning was collapse. He would say it if he has the intelligence of a piece of furniture.

        • Pretty_Polly

          Well, imho, ‘free movement’ is the proof that the aim of European union was always from the very beginning to destroy the nation state because that ultimately completely changes national identity.

          After all, if a nation is defined by it’s people, then what other proof is needed?

          • CockneyblokefromReading

            Yes, sorry, I should have clarified. I believe it IS the aim of the EU. Indeed, it isn’t even a shrouded aim. But I don’t believe it’s the aim of people like Cameron. I genuinely believe it’s simply a lack of intelligence, a lack of vision of how Britain will be in 25 years from now.

            Where is a Mr E Powell, when we need him so much?

          • Pretty_Polly

            That is an interesting point about Enoch Powell.

            If he was alive today and made the same statements, he would probably be in prison.

            Thereby demonstrating that the criminalisation of free speech has a great deal to answer for.

          • gunnerbear

            Doubtful, because he’d be an MP.

          • Pretty_Polly

            Oh okkaay, so MPs have immunity from the law despite what they say or where they may say it.

            Got it now.

          • gunnerbear

            If Powell made the speech in Parliament, he’d have parliamentary immunity – that’s why MPs can talk about things when newspapers dare not.

          • Pretty_Polly

            From what I have read about Enoch Powell, he was not in the habit of restricting his speeches to addressing parliament and he would be most unlikely to change his habits in that regard.

          • gunnerbear

            It’s still unlikely a sitting MP – during an election or referendum – would face sanction for using robust language….. 🙂

          • Mary Ann

            What, you mean the man who invited all those black people over to Britain to work in the NHS and public transport. He didn’t expect them to stay, so he must have lacked intelligence, lacked vision as well.

          • mohdanga

            Who worked the buses and NHS before the indispensable blacks arrived??

          • Mary Ann

            The NHS was in its infancy, so I guess no-one, The buses, pass.

          • Jeffrey Vernon

            When the influx of migrants from the EU began to take off under John Major in 1994 (the graphs are very clear about this), he must have thought that Britain would welcome all the migrants from France, Germany, Spain (and the three new countries next year, Austria Sweden and Finland). This, he must have calculated, would reduce racial tensions about commonwealth entrants. By Blair’s time, over half of migrants were EU. But it turns out that the British hate Poles and Romanians even more than we hate wogs and pakis.

          • Mary Ann

            Now the racists really are coming out of the woodwork, you must be getting desperate.

          • mike53

            This is a dumbing down process, sort of an adult version of animal farm, and yet many people are falling for it.

          • Marvin

            Where does the lust to infest the west with millions of primitive and medieval peoples of the middle east and Africa come into this and why go down this path when it will only bring death, violence and perpetual anarchy.

          • Pretty_Polly

            A good question and perhaps answered by saying that some key people with their possible secret aims and intentions probably were not, are not, and never have been what they appear to be.

          • mike53

            Please follow my lead in the above comment.

          • Marvin

            Sorry, don’t know how to go back

          • Jeffrey Vernon

            Free movement of goods and labour is good old Adam Smith economics from the 18th century; it’s not a French socialist plot dreamt up in secret in the 1950s. The EU began to advocate it only quite late in the day – the legal basis for it was put into place between 1992 and 2004. The reason I want to leave the EU is different – the unaccountable and unappealable decisions of the European Council, the ECJ and the central bank. These allow politicians to claim the credit and avoid the blame, depending on their agreement with the decision.

          • Pretty_Polly

            What makes you think Adam Smith wanted most of Europe to be able to live and work in Britain no questions asked?

            You do realise, presumably, that the electorate never wanted mass immigration.

          • Jeffrey Vernon

            Adam Smith advocated free movement, in an age when British people were turning up in India and China and the Americas. In his view, only free movement could make capital efficient. This is still the opinion of that subversive trotskyist muslim magazine, The Economist. Britain is not extraordinary for its proportion of EU migrants – Ireland, Norway, Austria and Holland have accepted a higher % from the EU, and Spain and Germany have accepted about the same level as Britain. France and Italy take a higher % from outside the EU.

            The electorate is rarely asked what it wants about a whole load of questions: ‘Do you think that big corporations should pay no tax’ for example. EU immigration rose in John Major’s time as a way of reducing commonwealth entrants. Some people are never happy.

          • Pretty_Polly

            So what are you saying?

            That the British electorate wanted mass immigration?

            I think we should be told..

          • Mary Ann

            I doubt that the Scots or the Irish would agree with you.

          • Pretty_Polly

            Oh you mean the Scots and Irish love the English.

            Lol.

        • mike53

          Pretty Polly is correct, look up Richard von Coudenhove-kalergi.

      • Mary Ann

        Why do they want to destroy our country’s identity, I find it hard to believe, it makes no sense? When was the last time you went Morris Dancing.

        • Pretty_Polly

          Why do you ask simpleton style question?

          To make it easier to achieve a United States of Europe of course.

          • Mary Ann

            I do notice that you do not answer the question, or are you one of those who doesn’t care about British culture. You have to thank Morris dancing for my existence, it’s where my parents met.

          • Pretty_Polly

            I did answer your question.

            Your other sentence was incomplete without the ?

          • Mary Ann

            That is just a trifle petty don’t you think? I will ask it again, When did you last go Morris dancing?

          • Pretty_Polly

            Most of your posts are indeed petty.

        • Countrywatch

          The plaque on the EU Visitors’ Centre should answer your question:

          Quotation on the wall at the EU Visitors Centre in Brussels

          “National sovereignty is the root cause of most of the evils of our time. The only final remedy for this supreme and catastrophic evil is a federal union of the
          peoples.”

          • CockneyblokefromReading

            She won’t answer that.

          • Jeffrey Vernon

            Full quote follows. This was written in 1939 not by a French technocratic socialist, but Philip Kerr, a British aristo and ambassador to the USA during WW2. ‘National sovereignty is the root cause of the most crying evils of our time and of the steady march of humanity back to tragic disaster and barbarism. The only final remedy for this supreme and catastrophic evil of our time is a federal union of the peoples.’

    • Mary Ann

      No we must vote stay, so much more sensible besides it’s what the next generation wants, and it is their future, not the olds.

  • Tamerlane

    He’s already lost his party, the sense that people have been lied to, deceived, bullied, treated like fools, the fawning and scraping to the likes of Obama in return for a pat on the head and platitudes about a special relationship and Britain being ‘great’ (you can be sure it’s not if everyone has to keep reminding each other it is) is humiliating, patronising and arrogant.

    Where is Farage when you need him?

    • Chamber Pot

      It is not as if the Olympic a*** licking is confined to Obama, it is everybody, whether it’s Milch cow Merkel, the poisonous dwarf Hollande, the Chinese, the Indians, or the bloodthirsty Saudis.

      The spectacle is gut wrenching and his deal making skills are even more spectacularly sh** awful.

    • red2black

      Down the pub.

    • Pretty_Polly

      Looks like Nigel has been told to shut up which is a shame as he is Leave’s best asset.

      • Mary Ann

        I think he is stay’s best asset, along with Marine Le Pen.

      • rtj1211

        Who has sufficient influence to tell him to and get him to obey?

    • Marvin

      It’s me again! BRAVO!

    • Nibs

      On Brei-tbart London.

  • Mary Ann

    Not a hollow victory, the EU is more important than the Tories, alright so they fall to pieces, Labour win the next election if they can, 5 years later the Tories get their act together and if they don’t move too far over to the right they may well get back. Why else do we have FPTP

    • Pretty_Polly

      Oh we have FPTP to destroy elector intent and to ensure that political renewal is impossible.

      • red2black

        Campaign for a referendum? Do you mean replace FPTP with Proportional Representation?

      • Mary Ann

        We agree about something.

  • lakelander

    As a Tory Leaver I also believe that we will vote narrowly to remain. Following that it would be good to see Michael Gove taking the reins of the party and government. Gove is a superior and more effective politician than Boris Johnson and would be the ideal individual to work combatively, with strong focus on gradual disengagement from the more pernicious aspects of the EU. He would hopefully hold another referendum within a short time and advocate Leave.

    • Kandanada

      I too have great faith in Gove. His dealings in education were a breath of fresh air after four decades of institutionalised left-wing bias.

      Interesting to think we could use the EU’s favourite trick against it. Namely, keep voting until we vote the “right” way: out.

      • Mary Ann

        Another one who wants to insult the electorate.

        • Kandanada

          What with the EU, the US and the established political parties insulting it, I doubt it would make much difference.

    • Pretty_Polly

      Gove has the public appeal of lump of wood whereas Boris Johnson has a huge following and is therefore likely to win elections.

      • Mary Ann

        Yes I suspect that Boris is more likely to win elections, in politics these days personality is more important than gravitas. Although with Gove as PM we would have a Labour victory at the next election.

    • Marvin

      I must admit, on first thoughts I thought that Gove was excellent and even was PM material, but on reflection, the speech was very well articulated with the cons of remaining and the pros of leaving, and had the detailed truth of Daniel Hannan, but could have been delivered better by Messers Mogg or Redwood.

    • Mary Ann

      You mean hold another referendum and insult the electorate. I do wish fanatics would realise what they are calling for.

      • James Chilton

        Why is it an “insult” to let the electorate express a view about the EU on more than one occasion?

        • Mary Ann

          It is, I’m surprised you can’t see that. Do you think Grove would have a referendum every week until he gets the answer he wants.

          • James Chilton

            Isn’t it an insult to the electorate when public opinion is manipulated by Cameron & Co – who have spent £9 million of public money sending a pack of lies to every household in the country?

        • Dýrmundur

          Because it is a democracy . If the majority wants to stay then that’s it . If the minority isn’t satisfied call another referendum untill it gets it their way ? It means the minority decides ,which is not OK .

      • lakelander

        In the likely event that the country votes to remain I hope we get a prime minister who ensures that another referendum is called and with the government, instead, proposing a Leave vote.

    • gunnerbear

      Not going to happen in a short period of time – HMG doesn’t work that way. I can see where you’re coming from but a newly minted PM isn’t going to press for a referendum that he’s just seen his side lose once before…..because he’d be out of a job if he lost again. Remember the SNP giving it the lip that they’d go for a second referendum very quickly then the SNP leadership realised another lost vote would do two things – kill ‘Indie’ for decades to come and of course they’d have to go as well. Be it Gove or Mr or Ms. ‘X’, no PM getting their boots or heels on to the PMs desk to start with is going to risk very quickly putting themselves out of a job….

  • Robert Shrubsole

    I DON’T GET THIS IDEA THAT CAMERON IS HEADED FOR A VICTORY BECAUSE WHAT HAPPENS TO HIM IS SOMETHING VERY FEW CARE ABOUT. BUT ALL THE COMMENTS I READ IS THAT CAMERON IS A CHARLATAN AND THAT CANNOT BE DOUBTED AND IF DOES WIN IT WILL BECAUSE HE EXPECTS SOME PERSONAL BENEFIT FROM TH EU. HE HAS ALREADY STATED THAT BRITAIN HAS A GREAT FUTURE WHETHER SHE STAYS IN OR OUT OF THE EU BUT HE DOES NOT ELABORATE ON THIS VIEW AND IF MEANS ANYTHING IT MEANS THAT CAMERON HASN’T GOT A BLOODY CLUE WHAT HE IS TALKING ABOUT.

  • tenbelly

    Sadly I agree with this.
    We are going to be shackled to the corpse for a bit longer.
    Our only hope is the collapse of of the whole rotten edifice.
    It will happen sooner or later.

  • Marvin

    Be brave and hold your nerves folks. All these so called experts are not even aware of all these comments posted on sites like these. I visit a few like you do, and have you not noticed that 99% are Anti EU? We may just overcome this lying slimy spineless traitor who fiddles while England burns.

    • JS

      As long as there will be no tampering.

      • Bob Hutton

        That’s just it, there WILL be tampering, it WILL be rigged.

        • gunnerbear

          Then get registered with the Electoral Commission as an observer and you’ll be able to witness the count.

      • Marvin

        They can’t help ti, lying, deceit and shafting the public is inherent, but in spite of all that these comments seem heartening.

        • JS

          We just need to hold our breath and not to fear!
          The more aggressive they are the more it shows how desperate they are getting!
          Cameron is not going to be the one with last laugh 🙂

          • Marvin

            Win or lose this charlatan and bogus piggy is finished, hopefully in disgrace for his incessant asinine lies.

  • Central power

    1995 GDPs UK 1,199.107 France 1,597.597 Italy 1,145.127
    2015 GDPs UK 2,864.903 France 2,422.649 Italy 1,819.047 all in $ billions.
    Another good example of us “suffering” under the EU’s shackles. Bet Gove (great PM in waiting), Boris(even greater PM in waiting) et al have mentioned this in their dispatches.

    • Lou Stroller

      Now give us the shares of GLOBAL GDP for France, Italy and the EU total for 1995 and 2015. Plus the Eurozone’s share of global GDP in 1999 and 2015.
      Go back a bit further, and compare 2015 with 1980…the EU’s decline is even more horrendous.

      • Central power

        “Horrendous decline^ in the UK, Germany, Holland, Denmark, Sweden – these countries have done very well within the EU, I agree that PIGS or PIIGS plus France have not done that well but I doubt the situation would have been any different with or without Euro. Share of GDP is a meaningless concept. 5% share of £100 is better than say 20% share of £10.

        • Lou Stroller

          No, you’ve avoided the question. The EU’s share of global GDP almost halved between 1980 and 2014. That’s a direct consequence of chronically declining competitiveness. And the decline in the EU’s share of global output is not only set to continue, but accelerate, according to the IMF, OECD and World Bank. Your little analogy is fatally flawed. The world is growing; your £10 figure is illogical nonsense…global GDP is increasing, but the EU’s share is rapidly declining. (It fell from 37% in 1980 to 20% in 2014). So what is the point of comparing 5% of £100 with
          20% of £10? Why the different denominators?!
          .

          • Central power

            You seem to have problems with primary school maths.Once more: say the whole world GDP in 1995 was £ 10. The EU share was 20% that is the EU GDP was £2. In 2015 the EU share was 5% out of £ 100. That is £ 5. Excluding inflation £ 5 is more than £ 2. In simpletons terms: a smaller share of a bigger cake may be more cake than a bigger share of a smaller cake.

          • Lou Stroller

            Your use of £100 and £10 is ridiculous, and is fooling no-one. In 1995 world GDP was $35 trillion and the EU’s GDP was $13 trillion, ie a 37% share.

            In 2014, World GDP had grown to $79 trillion and the EU’s GDP was $16 trillion, a 20% share.

            The loss of world trade share has cost the EU’s economies $13 trillion (37% – 20%) x $79 trillion.

            You would say great, between 1995 and 2014 the EU’s GDP increased by $3 trillion (23%), so let’s not worry about the fact that world GDP more than doubled in the same period. (The rest of the world, ie, excluding the EU, did even better).

            The catastrophic decline in the EU’s competitiveness doesn’t bother you at all. The EU’s share of world GDP is forecast to fall below 10% sometime in the 2030s. The precise year it will happen depends on which forecast you use, IMF, OECD or World Bank. And even as the EU heads for economic irrelevance, you’ll still be saying: ‘’oh well, GDP has grown, so who cares’’?

  • locomotion

    If we do remain in the world’s worst club I wonder whether a number of Tory MPs, disgusted at their leader and fed up with their party, will up sticks and join Ukip. It wouldn’t take many to eliminate the government’s majority. And then the government falls – good! Cameron will have destroyed his party and destabilised the country thanks to his lies and arrogance.
    I’m hoping the British people do have the sense to leave the EU but if not the bloody-minded part of me welcomes the chaos that will be unleashed.

    • Central power

      Even worse than Bullingdon?

    • JS

      I think irrespective of the result there will be a lot of people voting for ukip now as they are the only party who speaks sense.

  • McDemon

    For me Brexit now is certain, the bremainers will not be able to rely on getting the remain vote out whereas the leave vote is gagging to get out and vote. For me the Polls are way off, many people do not wish to be seen as leave voters (aka shy tories) for fear of being called little englanders or racists. The bremainers have tried to make it all about economics, when this is really an argument about sovereignty and democracy. As it stands no side or undecideds believe the figures or scaremongering and as the vote date draws closer the principle argument about who rules the UK will be the one that clinches it for the Brexiteers, the Bremainers have no answer to the democracy argument, hence their determination to keep banging on about finance which has now successfully been muddled so much no one believes anything on the stats. Leave: 58% remain 42%, 52% turnout

    • JS

      What is your position, if you don’t mind me asking?
      I am voting leave. What about you?

      • McDemon

        If one is pro european one has to vote leave, the EU is unreformable in its current guise, so to save Europe one must vote leave, and that is my position.

    • Mary Ann

      Where did you dream up your figures.

      • McDemon

        Thats my prediction

        • Mary Ann

          The status quo is meant to get a 10% extra vote at the last minute, so that would make it 60/40 in favour of staying at the moment as long as remain can get the young to sign up. It does seem a shame that the olds with less future in front of them want to take away the future that the young want.

          • McDemon

            I see it like this Mary Ann, think of it like the Snake (brexiteers) and the Snake Skin (Bremainers). As the skin becomes worn and loses its colour, begins to tear, no longer attracts snakes of the a different gender, it senses it’s days are numbered. It repeatedly cries out to the snake brain, “buy more moisturizer”, “don’t go out in the sun”, “and avoid those rocks”..”stay where we are”..To the snake skin the shedding of the sin is Armageddon, to the Snake, the shedding of the skin is what has to happen and would be a sense of relief when the skin finally sheds. The bremainers are exactly like the snake skin, talking up Armageddon, using emotional arguments such as your one about the “old” taking away the young’s future. Have a bit more courage and realise you are the Snake, not the skin

          • Aberrant_Apostrophe

            I pity the young. Assuming they do come out and vote Remain and we stay in, they’ll have another 40 years to put right their mistake, as many of us oldies did in 1975. Still, on the bright side, the EU will collapse in a couple of years anyway, especially if the Brexit side only lose by a whisker and other countries demand referenda.

          • ScepticSid

            So the young of the UK want the future the young in Greece, Portugal, Spain et al have?

            Why do you think s many of the southern european young have flocked to the UK?

            The loss of its young, educated, skilled does not bode well for these countries trapped by the euro.

    • davidofkent

      I hope you are right, but the British voter has a nasty habit of voting for ‘nurse for fear of something worse’.

    • Holly

      LEAVE 68%
      Remain 32%
      Turnout 80+%

      Snap-poll…… local Community Centre…..Thursday evening.

      • Seatofmypants

        I ask nearly everyone I even have a passing acquaintance with if they are voting In/Out. All were/are quite happy to answer (not knowing my intentions) and the answer 90% of the time is Out. Okay its snapshot.

        But the guy at work had a Tesco checkout girl ask him the same question as he was paying (she was doing her own survey). He said Out. “That’s what everyone else is saying” she said.

  • James Chilton

    After defeating the Roman army, Pyrrhus of Epirus replied to one that gave him joy of his victory that another such victory (with enormous casualties) would be the ruin of him.

    A pyrrhic victory for Dave might be on the cards. He won’t get a second chance to avoid ruin.

  • Steve Delahunty

    Listening to James Forsyth… Referring to William Hague and his comment that all Tories should be “conflicted” on the EU… Whereas Honest Dave & Gorgeous George are not “conflicted” on the EU, but are “afflicted” by their treacherous worship of the totalitarian EU.
    On June 24th, if “REMAIN” can dupe enough sheep to win the EU referendum by a slender margin, they will immediately create an almighty divide. And as the EU becomes ever more so draconian and authoritarian over a captive sovereign state, the revulsion to this totalitarian political regime will naturally grow, for the sheep who were initially duped into supporting “REMAIN” will eventually recognise the error of their decision.
    Thus, we are sewing the seeds of hostility and the horrors of internal conflict on our future generations to come. I’m minded of the collapse of the USSR & Warsaw Pact. And I personally believe that it is inevitable that such a fate will eventually befall the EU, where the consequences of EU dissolution will be far more severe.
    LIONS LED BY DONKEYS!

  • Bill Brinsmead

    Jimmy is preparing the ground for a Brexit defeat. If Brexit lose will its supporters accept the result?

    • gunnerbear

      I would think so because the Great British Electorate will have spoken – and of course those favouring exit could regroup and start again when they judge the moment to be better for them.

      • northeast_guy

        at the 2020 election then ukip will have a majority

        • gunnerbear

          Well, that would mean they’d need to go from 1 seat to hundreds – a tricky thing to do under FPTP. Not impossible, just very tricky.

    • Adam

      Definitely not. In the unlikely event that Britain votes to remain in the EU do you really think that the Leavers will go away quietly? In Scotland there is already talk from the SNP, not that long after they lost their Scottish independence referendum, of ANOTHER Scottish independence referendum – a neverendum. I’m almost certain that the same will happen if the Remainers win the EU referendum – it’ll not be long before the Leave camp start to put pressure on the government for another referendum, especially if the European migrant crisis continues or the EU’s sclerotic economy experiences another crisis. A vote to Remain will only see another EU referendum in the not too distant future. I’m certain of it.

      • Bob Hutton

        It is not an “unlikely event” for Britain to remain in the EU, it is an odds-on certainty, for one simple reason – the referendum will be rigged.

      • Dýrmundur

        So you want as many referendums untill you get it your way .

        • LibLabConScum

          No. One fair referendum would do.

        • Chris Taylor

          It works for the EU.

          • Dýrmundur

            you could be in the minority who wants out ,would you overrule the majority just to make it your way ?

    • Aberrant_Apostrophe

      Depends how quickly the EC reneges on Dave’s deal and let’s free the avalanche of legislation it has deliberately held back. I’d give it a couple of days…

  • Andrew Cole

    Cameron is out win or lose the referendum. I take it James has already decided Cameron’s legacy is to play the martyr to keep us in his beloved corporation club. Problem being this martyr will rise from the dead pretty quickly and be back to swilling the champagne and eating truffles before you know it.

  • JohnGalt

    all remainers forget one vital question: on what basis they think that there will be any EU in 10-15 years? EU is a bunch of broken, socialist, collectivist countries and just Germany with its overpriced cars holds it together. Most of EU countries are so desperate that they are selling their citizenships to earn money, high employment, benefit seekers crisis and many other points out there that show remainer forget that we are not in 19th Century and EU is not the centre of the world anymore.

    • Central power

      Brexiters: personalized number plates, mostly German cars (give and take a few Jags and Land Rovers), golf / tennis club members and shop in Waitrose and never in Lidl/Aldi.

  • shahbaz

    f the british people! the brits are a bunch of brainless hypocritical confused idiots. the brits are very anti-trump yet they are very anti-corbyn, very anti-blairite and very anti-tory at the same time. i hope britian votes to stay in the EU. the british people deserve to be f’d soo bad that britian should have the highest suicide rate and the highest unhappyness rate in the world.

    • JohnGalt

      what drug did you use?

      • shahbaz

        go f yourself you stupid scumbag.

        • JohnGalt

          happy with f ing yourself. just as a reminder (if your tiny brain can process), saying these B**S makes you a real a** hole. don’t think otherwise and use lower dosage from now on 😀

          • shahbaz

            a ‘back at ya’ lol nice one kiddo. what’s B**S? you brits are scum. i am not an ahole for being stern about you evil people. go get drunk and hopefully die from your drunkenness you filthy pig.

          • logdon

            Yep, A Muslim alright.

            Just can’t help yourselves can you?

          • shahbaz

            f off k1ke troll.

          • logdon

            It’s the way with works which give it away.

          • shahbaz

            ??

  • shahbaz

    you brits are f’d. most polls show the in campaign winning and 4 out of the 5 most recent polls show the in campaign winning by a pretty big lead. if the brits vote to stay in the EU then UKIP will be finished and the anti-EU right-wing parties and the far-right in europe will be completely eradicated this decade. hopefully the americans will not make the same tragic mistake as you brits by electing donald trump instead of hillary clinton as their president.

    • mailbiter

      Is that you, Dylann?

      • shahbaz

        i am not dylan……..

        • mailbiter

          You do a fair impersonation of him.

          • shahbaz

            i dont know you, you dont know me, and i have no idea who this dylan guy is.

    • TheLight

      Hillary Clinton would be the WORST choice for President and leaving the E.U. would be the best thing for Britain.

      • shahbaz

        i dont support hillary clinton. i hate that wicked witch of the west. i only support trump in the american presidential election.

    • JohnGalt

      oh you talk better. it seems that the drug has been clearing hahhaa
      for your information, public vote does not make something good. Hitler gained 88% of vote. EU is another fascist regime no matter how many freaks vote for it.
      Also, don’t overrate polls. you forgot the election?
      Your beloved socialist EU will be go to history bin due to its socialist/fascist agenda!

      • shahbaz

        i am anti-EU.

        • JohnGalt

          then why you think all brits are voting to stay in?
          I think otherwise.

          • shahbaz

            maybe the media is over blowing the level of support of the british people for the in campaign.

          • JohnGalt

            they did the same in the election. All of even right wing media said that in best case scenario we will have another coalition. I am optimistic and hopeful that we will be out of this fascist organization once and for all.

          • shahbaz

            its a communist organisation my friend, not a fascist organisation. hopefully the british people will vote to leave the european soviet union. peace and take care 🙂

          • JohnGalt

            they are same. it is a myth that they are different they are both collectivist and totalitarian. Nazis were National SOCIALISTS. Hitler and Stalin could have been very good mates.

          • shahbaz

            no offence but you know nothing about national-socialism. national-socialism is the complete opposite of socialism. national-socialism is pro-white and socialism is anti-white. hitler was the biggest anti-communist in history.

          • JohnGalt

            no mate you are wrong. racism is nothing embedded in these ideologies and many lefties such as Marx, Webb and Shaw were pro-white. Even Soviet Union was pro-Russian whites against other tribes in the country. The point is not their attitude toward racism. Both of them are collectivist, anti-individualism, totalitarian and anti-free market. It is a myth that they were enemies. They are same in heart.

            Communism is based on total ownership and control of product means by the state but Fascism is based on total control of product means by state whereas it may not own the means. We are all living in fascist states where we seem to own something (property, car, income, business, etc.) but state dictates on how to control these means (cap on rent, business regulations, taxes, etc.) and sometimes it becomes communist and take the ownership (TfL and Tata Steel). They ar eve very twisted and ideologically same.

          • shahbaz

            i recommend you to watch the eye opening documentary “adolf hitler: the greatest story never told” and i recommend you to check out the 2 youtube truther channels “dennis wise” and “historytruths”-(no space). those 3 things will wake you up from all the propaganda lies and all the disinfo lies you have been brainwashed with about hitler, the nazis, national-socialism and WW2.

          • JohnGalt

            I can watch them but I don’t need it. Socialism and Fascism are the same collectivist agenda and I can refer you to a great book: “Capitalism: Unknown Ideal” by Ayn Rand. And how can I be brainwashed when all lefties try to distinguish themselves from Nazis and try to pretend that these two ideologies are different. No mate they are same and if you study their agenda, their core ideology and their methods you see there is no different. One insists on total control and ownership but the other insists on total control but semi-ownership. One is based on Marxism and the other based on Keyesian economy and both are evil. Good Luck.

          • shahbaz

            economics wise hitler was a center-right person. look up hitler’s position on the political compass…. on the political compass website.

          • Jeffrey Vernon

            Marx and Engels looked forward to the withering away of the state. It is only the stalinists and the labour movement who think that the state stands between society and barbarism.

          • JohnGalt

            they might say that but their ideology leads us to a biger state. Communism is the final imaginary state which passes through a middle stage or Socialism. Socialism is the ultimate state power which should lead to elimination of the state in the second common in long term but there are two facts: this long term is actually indefinite! and the secondary common cannot withstand for a week!!! It is a fantasy which is not worth even thinking about

          • Jeffrey Vernon

            Long before Keynes, that well-known Socialist Bismarck had introduced nationalisation and a welfare state in Germany. Keynes was always dismissive of Marx; why should he read a book, he once asked, that he knew was mistaken? Marx wrote nothing about the nature of socialist society; he rejected Hegel’s idea that the State was the rational outcome of history; and at a time when markets boomed and crashed every few years, he was not inclined to think them rational or logical. The great problem, for Marx, was that we endow commodities with human attributes, while regarding other people as mere obstacles to getting them. This fetishism, as he called it, was bound to happen so long as labour power is itself a commodity. Whether you agree or not, this is a long way from the straw marx we now have, and has been disregarded by both his admirers and his detractors.

          • JohnGalt

            Marx ideology is based on rejection of reason and he dismissed the role of rationality and logic in society and human action and it was the reason that Marxist ideas were rejected by many very soon. Marx problems were because he did not have any idea of how an economic system works and he was romanticizing the human actions and interactions. He saw Human as commodity in a free market and dismissed completely the role of entrepreneurship in economy (he saw capitals as just goods, land and labor) whereas it is just in a free economy that people can achieve what they deserve and they can enjoy their freedom. His quote “From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs” shows how naïve was he. I don’t care if he had genuine intentions or he claimed that his ideas will lead to a better system. This slogan alone shows incredibility of all of his ideas as this slogan has contradiction and is against any logical mindset.

            Keynes made a compromise and mixed the Marxism with a controlled form of market economy or crony-capitalism or corporationism. His ideas were more appealing but more dangerous as in Marxist system the state owns and controls the production means and at least is responsible for the failures. But in Keynesian system like what we have state just controls and always blames private sector for its failures whereas corruption and fault is much more prevailed in public sector and more interesting many of private sector failures are because of state control.
            Yes, Keynes ideas were implemented before in Roman Empire. Mazdak maybe the first communist in history in Sassanid Empire in Iran. But Marx and Keynes theorized these ideas and so they get the credit for what we have now in the world.

          • Jeffrey Vernon

            Like many of the famous statements attributed to Marx, the one you’ve given is actually a position he opposed. Criticising the German Social Democrats’ election manifesto in the 1870s, and its call for ‘fair distribution of the proceeds of labour’, Marx points out that this can only happen in a stage of society difficult to imagine. ONLY WHEN labour has ceased to be toil, but has become ‘life’s prime want’, only then does the slogan from each/to each make any sense. Marx begins his study from the self-confessed failure of Smith, Ricardo and the classical economists to understand the source of value; if he did not understand economics, neither did they. You cannot find any thing in the work of Marx that supports nationalised capitalism; it was already happening in Germany in his own time, and he was against it – how could communism come about by trying to manage a process that is essentially spontaneous, the determination of value in a market? Hence Engels’ prediction that the German railway, which required the whole of the military to run it, would one day require only a few technical administrators, at which point the state – in this instance of it – would have withered away.

            Marx the close student of the Epicureans, Stoics and Sceptics – he wrote his PhD on them – knew more about logic than either of us.

          • JJD

            If national socialism was the opposite of socialism, why was it called “national socialism”? The clue is in the name. It was a variant of socialism.

          • shahbaz

            socialism is left-wing, national-socialism is right wing. hitlet was no lefty and he was not anti-white you idiot.

          • JJD

            What are you, 13?

            Go figure out the difference between left wing economics and left wing social policy.

          • shahbaz

            actually economics wise hitler was a centre-right person. look up hitler’s position on the political compass…. on the political compass website. its funny that you sarcastically questioned me if i am 13 when you are an ignorant idiot who does not know what he is talking about.

          • JJD

            You get your opinions pre-packaged from websites. That’s what people who don’t know what they are talking about do.

          • shahbaz

            do you realise how stupid you sound? think before you speak.

          • JJD

            Think? You wouldn’t know an independent thought if it came up and introduced itself. Look, you’re either a numpty, or 13. Either way, I’ve nothing else to say to you. Cheerio.

          • shahbaz

            you dont know what you are talking about you idiot. you only spew verbal diarrahea you moron.

    • IvyMike

      UKIP won’t be ‘finished’. The Scottish Nats lost their referendum and now they’re stronger than ever.

      • shahbaz

        thats different. the scottish national party are staunchly pro-EU.

      • shahbaz

        and the scot nats have said they wont campaign for the independence of scotland anymore.

  • shahbaz

    the kikes are behind all the mass immigration flooding, race mixing and multiculturalism in only white countries. nobody, not whites nor non-whites, benefit from that abomination except for only the kikes. if there was not 1 single ethnic-muslim in the west, then that would be very great for the muslim ummah for many reasons and very bad for the kikes for many reasons. hopefully the british people will vote to leave the EU, then hopefully the far-right will come to power in europe and then hopefully the BNP will come to power in britain in 2020.

    • Steve Delahunty

      Adolf, is that you? 🙂

      • Jeffrey Vernon

        No – it’s Islaminoia Troll.

        • Steve Delahunty

          I don’t pay heed to it really… 100% perspiration 0% inspiration…

          • shahbaz

            is that what you tell your boyfriends? lol

          • Steve Delahunty

            lol… cheeky sod… 🙂

        • shahbaz

          shut up jew troll! 🙂

      • shahbaz

        heil hitler fagg0t! 🙂

    • Damon

      Yes, another fairly typical evening on the Spectator comments page.

    • Richard

      This is not a “real” post. It has all the hallmarks of an Islamic person, perhaps one paid to write this.

      • shahbaz

        its funny that you negatively called me an “islamic person” when i said a pro-white comment. that tells me you are a jew troll.

        • Richard

          You are pretending to be what you are not.

          • shahbaz

            ??

        • polidorisghost

          “that tells me you are a jew troll.”
          Proves his point – You guys just can’t stop yourself can you?

          • shahbaz

            kikes are anti-humanity.

          • polidorisghost

            No
            They are a fine people helping to defend civilisation against ignorance and bigotry.

          • shahbaz

            you are ignorant and the kikes are a lying degenerate biggotted people. the kikes have ruined western civilisation.

          • polidorisghost

            The threat to western civilisation comes from islam.

          • shahbaz

            the kikes want there to be a lot of non-whites and muslims in the west but the kikes will never allow the west to become islamised because that would be against the interest of the kikes. the kikes want the west to become a depressing miserable degenerate cesspool for everyone that is in the west except for the kikes and their traitorous puppets of course and the kikes want that to happen because that would be very bad for the muslim ummah for many reasons.

      • Mary Ann

        Leave eu are the ones who are paying people to write pro. eu comments, they are on £16k a year. 3 months of propaganda will give them enough for a nice holiday and screw up their country.

    • Matthe

      there isn’t any muslim country in the EU.

      • Jenki

        They will soon all be Moslem counties thanks to the largess of Frau Merkel!

        • Mary Ann

          For every million refugees that come to Europe it puts the population up by 0.002%

          • Tom

            Muslims have more babies than Western families. Four wives per man. Ye Gods!

  • Steve Delahunty

    Sir James Goldsmith – Referendum Party: 1997 election video https://youtu.be/SSXdE8M-9Y4 via @YouTube

  • amanuenensi

    read the first 30 comments the rest are nutters

    • marvin

      What number position are you?

  • David Westwood

    Very angry that Obama has threatened the UK and that is what his speech today amounted to, he said what good and important friends we were then said, “we would be back of the queue with regards to a trade deal,” so much for good friends! My patriotic instincts have been risen. What makes the threat worse is that it was endorsed by a British Prime Minister. The EU referendum has become more of a bullying exercise then a debate.

    On leaving the EU we would result to operating trade on the International rules laid down by the World Trade Organization. This is what the vast majority of nations do, from China, to Russia, to Brazil, to Japan and Australia. It is not rocket science that international trade laws would automatically come into effect. Any specific free trade agreement could be agreed later, but we may find that free trade is not in our interest after all.

    All empires end and the EU is just another empire. It is going from crisis to crisis and it seems it time of existence will be far shorter than the other empires of history. It is a train crash in progress. What we have to decide is whether to stay on the train or get off before the final crunch.
    The issue isn’t whether EU will work it is when will it fail, what will be the final fatal cause and what damage will be done to the member nations. Look what happened to the nations of the
    Soviet Union or Yugoslavia.

    What happens after the referendum is as interesting as the referendum itself. If Cameron wins the vote (and it seems he will) all those disaffected voters will migrate towards UKIP in the same way voters in Scotland migrated to the SNP. At the last general election Cameron offered a referendum on the EU to fight off competition from UKIP. What will be offered at the next? If Cameron loses the
    referendum, there will probably be a Tory government in 2020, but if he wins it, it could be Labour. Cameron is in a lose, loses situation.

    • marvin

      Wrong! If Cameron wins then it will be by illegal processes – and the electorate will know that as millions are electing to come out of the EU. They will respond not with UKIP but by voting in the BNP!

      • Mary Ann

        Project fear. No the British are not that nasty.

      • David Westwood

        I hope not the BNP. Look what happened in Scotland, the referendum their solved nothing and the EU referendum will solve nothing.

  • shahbaz

    if the british people vote to stay in the EU then the british people will only have 3 options to choose from in the 2020 national elections; george osborne, jeremy corbyn and tim farron. if the british people vote to stay in the EU then jeremy corbyn will become prime minister in 2020. maybe the british people voting to stay in the EU and jeremy corbyn becoming prime minister of britian in 2020 wont be such a bad thing. i am not that bothered anymore about the british people voting to stay in the EU.

  • LibLabConScum

    That’s twice in a couple of weeks that Spineless Dave caMoron has stood on a stage with a foreigner. A so-called world leader. And stood there with a smug smirk on his face, whilst these foreigners threatened the citizens of the United Kingdom.

    What a slimy, odious, treasonous Tory Scumbag he is. He should swing, and in a couple of years, the way things are going, he hopefully will.

    • mikewaller

      What a load of nonsense!

      • LibLabConScum

        So he didn’t stand there smirking, whilst Hollande threatened the UK?

        I guess you are just Tory Scum, just like Spineless Dave caMoron, Cokehead Obama, and Theresa ‘I find it impossible to deport Rapists’ May. Keep burying your head in the sand, Tory-Boy. And don’t worry, comments on the Scummygragh will be back open by 24th June, for filth like you.

        Your kind make me sick to the pit of my stomach.

        • Mary Ann

          Still, you have Putin on your side, and he’s financing Le Pen as well, He would love to see Brexit and the EU breaking up, divided we fall.

          • LibLabConScum

            Braindead Bint.

      • marvin

        Your words!

    • Trailblazer10

      In America they are called cucks.

      “A cuckservative is a self-styled “conservative” who will cravenly sell
      out and undermine his home country’s people, culture, and national
      interest in order to win approval with parties hostile or indifferent to
      them.”

      http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=cuckservative

      There is parody account called “conservative pundit”. It is American , but you will get the drift….

      https://twitter.com/demsrrealracist?lang=en-gb

  • English Patriot

    Why should Cameron care? By 2020 he will be gone and some other unfortunate will have to clear up the mess.

    • Trailblazer10

      Do you think that will still be possible in 2020?

    • OmnipotentWizard

      We liven the wealthiest generation ever with record levels of employment – is that the mess you were talking about?

      • Mary Ann

        Not after Brexit.

      • English Patriot

        The mess I was talking about was a divided Tory party which might just let Corbyn into power.

  • airborne ally

    Scotland to vote out of EU then you can force another referendum on independence ,and you will win this time !

  • mikewaller

    Very simplistic analysis! What this campaign is revealing is that the Brexit Tories are for the most part the “swivel-eyed loons” they were accused of being, or just time-expired fantasists. Even better, Boris – hitherto considered a very strong leadership candidate – has clearly jumped the wrong way and made a fool of himself in doing so. He should have listened to his much more sensible dad. Taken all round, this should ensure a much better chance of a smooth handover to Osborne. Hurrah!

    • yeoman

      Osborne and Cameron are finished. Just talk to party members in most constituencies.

      • OmnipotentWizard

        “Just talk to party members in most constituencies.” Where did you do this poll? I have to warn you that “inside your head” is not a valid place for a poll.

    • marvin

      Dangerous talk! Those calling for a Brexit are the huge majority of the British public – you should really pay attention! You should be happy about it too – for the alternative would be a huge swathe of the population will be voting for the BNP!

      • Mary Ann

        Dream on, the remainers are slightly ahead of the polls, or do the half of the population who disagree with you not count.

  • Maarten

    Who cares about the Tory party!!!! This vote is about the future of Britain and Europe and it will have enormous geopolitical and economic ramifications for decades to come, never mind large impact on millions of peoples lives. I can’t believe some commentators are more interested in the personal political consequences for David Cameron or the petty internal conflicts within the conservative party of the outcome of the vote, rather than, you know, the consequences of the UK leaving the EU or not.

    • Trailblazer10

      Excellent post . It is because the media, and much of the population fails to understand the magnitude of it. They will regret that, too late, I fear.

      • Jenki

        Absolutely spot on!

    • OmnipotentWizard

      Esoteric arguments about sovereignty and exaggerated claims about immigration will cut no ice with the general public. They have a comfortable life and won’t want to take any risk with trying something new.

      • marvin

        YOU may have a comfortable life! Have you not looked around and seen the increasing numbers of people sleeping on the streets? or the ever growing queues for the food banks? or of the disabled barely being able to survive on the cut back allowance? the elderly not being able to afford to heat their homes? the largest numbers ever of the unemployed struggling to find work, also on reduced benefits? That is the problem of so many remainers – they live in a selfish bubble!

        • Mary Ann

          That’s down to the Tories making the poor pay for the failure of the bankers, rather than those who can afford to pay

        • OmnipotentWizard

          “Have you not looked around and seen the increasing numbers of people sleeping on the streets?”
          Big oops marvin:
          “The Autumn 2014 total of rough sleeping counts and estimates in England was 2,744” (Rough Sleeping Statistics England – Autumn 2014 Official Statistics – ONS)
          AND
          “A total of 3,569 rough sleepers were identified by counts and estimates by local authorities in Autumn 2015, up from 2,744 a year before.” (BBC Online News 25/02/2016)
          That is out of 56 million people and the report makes it clear that most of these have drink, drug or mental problems. So you haven’t “looked around and seen the increasing numbers of people sleeping on the streets”.

          “…or the ever growing queues for the food banks?” Usage of foodbanks has mirrored the recession and is hence nothing to do with the EU. Indeed very few people ever used foodbanks even at the peak.

          “…the disabled barely being able to survive on the cut back allowance?” Just because you say something that doesn’t make it true.

          “…the elderly not being able to afford to heat their homes?” No one freezes and no one staves in this country for lack of available help.

          “…the largest numbers ever of the unemployed struggling to find work,” Very big oops:
          “Unemployment has fallen by more than 100,000 to its lowest level in over seven years, new figures have shown….The employment rate has reached 73.7%, the highest since comparable records began in 1971. (Yahoo 11/11/2015)

          “…also on reduced benefits” Benefits have been rationalise to make them fairer and most people now get more.

          • Kim Parsons

            Ooops population risen now 65 (2016) million plus ! bit out of date on most figures then!

          • OmnipotentWizard

            Ooops population of ENGLAND is now about 56 million. I’m completely up to date on all figures then!

            Please read posts more carefully in future if you don’t want to look foolish.

          • Kim Parsons

            Totally agree I should 🙂 presumably all the above figures will be zero before we take in more. Yes also agree that some of the general public, not all, will blindly go on as if nothing is happening. It is and we will prosper and cope quite well without the interference from the EU.

          • OmnipotentWizard

            “…presumably all the above figures will be zero before we take in more.” I’m not sure what needs to be zero. The rough sleeping is a tiny figure. It is known that immigrants generate more tax than they take in benefits. This is a little old but the basic reality has changed:

            “The study by University College London said…immigrants from the European Economic Area had made a particularly positive contribution in the decade up to 2011, contributing 34% more in taxes than they received in benefits. Immigrants from outside the EEA contributed 2% more in taxes than they received in the same period, the report showed.” (BBC Online 5/12/2013)

  • Trailblazer10

    I hope not. There is litlle chance of escape after this. Even if you do manage to break free later, you will be very much weakened.

    • OmnipotentWizard

      Better toi stay where we have become wealthier, healthier and safer over the last couple of generations.

      • Jenki

        That is not a reason to stay! I for one do not want our nation to become just a federated state of greater Germany. I read earlier today that some units of the Dutch army have become incorporated with the Bundeswehr. The embryonic EU Army? No my old Mum was right when she wrote in my autograph book (do kids still have them) ‘Love many trust few and always paddle your own canoe.’

        • OmnipotentWizard

          “That is not a reason to stay!” It is what will cause most people to vote IN.

          “I for one do not want our nation to become just a federated state of greater Germany.” As the UK is due to overtake Germany as the largest European economy with about a decade then Germany would more likely become a federated state of the UK.

          “I read earlier today that some units of the Dutch army have become incorporated with the Bundeswehr.” It was one unit and this was a choice of those two nations and nothing to do with the EU and both nations must agree before the forces are deployed. No big deal.

          So it is continue to get more wealthy within the EU or a leap into the unknown….better the devil you know.

          • marvin

            Well – it might be ‘Better the Devil you know’ but it appears you don’t know that particular devil very well, do you?

            Germany is to all intents and purposes – the head of the EU! Germany is by far the richest of any of the EU members! Germany has created the largest armed forces of any country in Europe! Germany’s desire for dominance caused two World Wars! Yet Germany continues to breach many of the EU rules! The EU/US allegiance will continue to interfere in outside countries and goad their leaders into unrest or war – the British do not want that!

            Britain, having had to turn its back on the Commonwealth due to EU policies – will return to trading with the countries it can trust – with whom it holds a similar focus – the commonwealth charter : that supports the principles of world peace, liberty, human rights, equality, and free trade. Britain is not like the EU, it has nothing hardly in common with its policies even!

          • OmnipotentWizard

            “Germany is to all intents and purposes – the head of the EU!” Just because you say something that doesn’t make it true.

            “Germany is by far the richest of any of the EU members!” Certainly not “by far”.

            “Germany has created the largest armed forces of any country in Europe!” It has the largest population – Do’h!

            “Germany’s desire for dominance caused two World Wars!” Its the World War red herring again!!!!

            “Yet Germany continues to breach many of the EU rules!” Just because you want something to be true that doesn’t mean it is.

            “The EU/US allegiance will continue to interfere in outside countries and goad their leaders into unrest or war…” To date the US actions are taken with NATO partners and not the EU – Oops.

            “…the British do not want that!” It seems we do as we have been involved with the US (and not the EU) in several Middle East conflicts recently.

            “having had to turn its back on the Commonwealth…” As in this example:
            “Britain is already the largest investor in India among G20 nations, and India invests more in the UK than it does in the rest of the EU combined.” (Yahoo 12/11/2015)

            “…the commonwealth charter : that supports the principles of world peace, liberty, human rights, equality, and free trade.” Similar to the EU then?

        • ken

          So you would agree the Scots are right to want to go it alone?

          • KenT.

            The sooner the better!

          • Jenki

            The Scots must please themselves…… Which I believe they did in a referendum just a wee while ago. Now we, the United Kingdom (including the Scots) will have our say on June 23rd.

      • marvin

        Are you one of the Comedians? Wealthier? When the goverments own figures show that the GDP has been steadily reducing every year since we became part of a Union! Healthier? When under EU policies we are now having to accept GM foods from the US when these were banned in Britain after many very stringent tests? Where we now have to accept foods containing many additional chemicals to either extend their shelf lives or to expand the amounts to help feed the additional population. Safer? When the figures from the Police Authorities have shown a huge 27% rise in violent crime in the past six months? So where will you stay where you are? In a foot thick concrete, padded cell with no connection to the outside world?

        • OmnipotentWizard

          Lets just compare ourselves with the pre-EU generation shall we:

          Wealth: We can now afford almost four times as many cars per million people on the road. People have twice as long vacations and will probably go further. We eat out five times as often. People spend longer in retirement. Obesity is now a problem that our parents certainly couldn’t afford. The number of households has grown as we can afford to have less people per house. Benefits have far outstripped inflation.

          Healthier – Life expectancy has increased by fifteen years! People have far fewer days off work due to sickness. Infant Mortality is at an all time low.

          Safer – There is no longer a threat of nuclear war. Violent crime is at an all-time low).

          BTW: “…Police Authorities have shown a huge 27% rise in violent crime in the past six months…” This comes from the ONS with a note that says this is due to changes in the way crime is recorded”

          Big oops all round marvin.

          • English Patriot

            What does any of this have to do with being in the EU?

          • OmnipotentWizard

            We know we have become a lot wealthier whilst in the EU and we don’t know what the alternative universe of being outside the EU would have given us.

            So – why would we make the leap into the unknown of leaving the EU?

          • English Patriot

            ALL of the west has become “a lot wealthier” since 1945, that is nothing to do with the EEC/EU. We should “make the leap” and reclaim our independence as the EU ship is heading for the rocks of bankruptcy and civil war.

          • KenT.

            Omnipotent …. And our £1.8 trillion national debt ??

          • OmnipotentWizard

            A debt is like a mortgage – if you can service the debt and still buy more stuff (as I’ve shown we can in a big way) then you are wealthier. Our debt at 80% of GDP is perfectly serviceable.

            This is the current view of the main rating agencies of the UK’s ability to service its debt: S&P AAA (top rate), Fitch AA+, Moody’s Aa1, DBRS AAA (top rate), JCR AAA (top rate), etc.

          • KenT.

            Having no debt means that we don’t pour £billions down the drain in interest repayments. Borrowing money is for fools. Without our contibution of £13 billion to the EU, we could pay off our debt and have a much healthier economy.

          • OmnipotentWizard

            “Having no debt means that we…” ..aren’t growing. “Borrowing money is for…” People to buy a house or a car or a country to invest in infrastructure. “Without our contibution of £13 billion to the EU…”…we could use the money to partly compensate for the 6% drop in GDP leaving the EU would cause.

          • KenT.

            Tell that to the people of Greece Omni. You keep borrowing if you like my friend, but don’t try to inflict your false economic reasoning on the rest of us. Our country’s debt is double what it was under Labour, and is getting bigger as we speak. You can not borrow money to get out of debt.

          • OmnipotentWizard

            Greece isn’t the UK. Our debt is at 80% of GDP (about the same as the US). This percentage is key in judging our debt sustainability. I’ve already shown you the ratings agencies’ views of this.

            The Government is rightly prioritising growing GDP over paying down the debt. For example HS2 will make more money in the long term than if we didn’t do it and used the money to pay the debt.

            “Our country’s debt is double what it was under Labour,…” Not if you take inflation into account and not in comparison the GDP. The current level is a direct result of the global recession. The impact on the UK of this recession was exacerbated by Gordon relaxation of the UK banking rules.

            “…and is getting bigger as we speak.” Not when compared to GDP – which is the key indicator.

            “You can not borrow money to get out of debt.” Corbyn wants to.

          • Tom

            Wonderful! All down to the doomed EU. Rubbish. The quicker we’re OUT, the quicker we can stand on our own two feet, and trade with the world.

          • OmnipotentWizard

            We know we became s lot wealthier whilst in the EU but we don’t know what the parallel reality where we didn’t join would have been like. So better the devil you know.

            “…we can stand on our own two feet, and trade with the world.” The EU doesn’t stop us doing this. For example while we have been in the EU the following happened:

            “Britain is already the largest investor in India among G20 nations, and India invests more in the UK than it does in the rest of the EU combined.” (Yahoo 12/11/2015)

  • OmnipotentWizard

    “David Cameron is heading for a hollow victory…” Sounds like bitterness from someone who knows they are going to lose.

  • daviejohn

    It will be a Pyrrhic victory tho’, one hopes he will never recover from this.

  • antoncheckout

    “Barring a dramatic worsening of the migrant crisis or another eurozone emergency”
    Both are being carefully held in check by Brussels and Berlin, Tsipras has been warned to keep a low profile, and the German media has been ordered to shut up about them until June 24th, when they will both erupt, to the dismay of the UK voters who thought that was all solved, and voted to remain without understanding the consequences.

    Greece will nearly default, the Germans Then, the next stage, two years ahead, Britain will be so isolated and bullied by the eurozone into enforced ‘solidarity taxes’ that it will be compelled as the lesser of two evils to join the euro and shoulder the burden of the southern eurozone with Germany. For ever and ever and ever. Until the eurozone collapses in acrimony.

    • marvin

      Even Italy who are heading for a bail out – has been forced to stay quiet! Those who support Brexit must stay strong and not fall for the cunning deceipt that is upon us now!

      • Mary Ann

        At least you have Putin on your side.

  • plainsdrifter

    We will be out of the EU one way or the other; by getting out, or getting out along with everyone else due to its collapse. The former would be preferable.

    • amanuenensi

      Piffle

      • KenT.

        amanuenensi – Unless you have a positive and sensible arguement, for giving the UK to the unelected Eurocrats at Brussels (destroying our country and culture for all time), I suggest that you desist from making inane comments and go away.

  • Mary Ann

    It’ not a hollow victory if he manages to stop Britain doing something stupid. The Tory party will soon reform, they want power.

  • marvin

    It is certainly not looking like a victory for Cameron with the huge majority of people favouring a Brexit! A nation can take so much for just so long – we have all had enough! ‘The promised prosperity of Britain’ is nothing more than that! A continual promise that will never reach fruition! Everyone has witnessed the frivolous manner in which EU money is being spent – hard earned honest money thrown to anyone who held a begging cap out (mostly the over wealthy minority) money that could have been spent far more wisely! Everyone knows that Germany leads the EU – the leaders of which cannot be trusted – who have always sought to dominate, who have now become the most wealthy of all member states and whose investments include creating the largest armed forces contingent of any member state while preventing any other state from becoming its equal. Wages are falling, unemployment is at its highest level ever, prices are increasing, schools are failing, our health sevices failing, etc., etc., If there is anyone left who still wants to stay with the EU, you have my sympathies!

  • Robert the Engineer

    The Parliamentary debate on Cameron spending £9 million of tax-payer’s money on the remaIN propaganda is scheduled for 10 May. Conservatives rushed to sign the on-line petition calling for this debate. How do I know that? The petition web site includes a map of Britain showing the number of supporters of the petition. It is divided by Constituency. Those with a Conservative MP (Unionist in Northern Ireland) have the most supporters of the petition. Those with a non-Conservative MP have the fewest supporters. Even Edgbaston, whose Labour MP Gisela Stuart is involved in the leave campaign, has only about a fifth of the number of signers as many Conservative constituencies.

  • Robert the Engineer

    Cameron was foisted on the Conservative Party in a move which denied ordinary members their right to vote on the Leadership. Experience showed that, faced with a choice, the members preferred the more Conservative person as Leader. Cameron halved the Party membership when he went ahead with redefining marriage. On that occasion, almost all the opposition came from Conservative MPs voting against the Leader.

    The conduct of the Referendum campaign has angered many more local activists. For example, in the interests of the Party being “neutral” about the EU, Local Election Candidates who printed leaflets in which they discussed their case for leaving the EU were ordered NOT to distribute them. There was NO instruction at the time of Nominations about this. Te orders came after campaign leaflets were printed.

    It is the local activists who get votes for the party. It is the local activists who spend their time and money on election campaigns. If Cameron wants to destroy the Conservative Party, let him ignore the feelings of local activists.

    What will I be doing on 6th May? getting Vote Leave leaflets through letterboxes in the Ward where I am currently prevented from speaking about the EU by Party officials.

  • Robert the Engineer

    I think the “bottom line” is this. Conservative activists are loyal to the Conservative Party. Or at least to the Conservative principles which the Party ought to follow if it is true to its name. Loyal to the Party, they feel betrayed by Cameron. They look forward to a substantial Leave EU majority in the Referendum, which will make Cameron’s leadership untenable. It would be a gamble that another pseudo-Conservative Leader would not be foisted on the Party.

  • Machiavelli

    With the greatest of respect. F*ck the party politics, he will have set the country on a path of destruction at the hands of the EU. There will be no second chance to free ourselves, except for future force of arms at home or abroad..

  • Ade

    It’s a straight choice between being the UK, or being the 28th state of the United States of Europe. The rest is just a discussion of how many Tories can dance on the head of a pin…

  • “the uncertainty inherent in leaving the EU will probably mean that most British voters will choose to maintain the status quo.”

    There is no status quo option on the ballot sheet.

    http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/plans-drawn-up-for-european-superstate-djj5pvq32

  • DaHitman

    “which explains his willingness to be photographed with Neil Kinnock last week.

    Always said Cameron was one of the bogus Tories, vote #LEAVE

  • The PrangWizard of England

    We will be weakened further if the vote is to remain in the EU. The EU will know that they will then have us firmly and irrevocably in their grasp. They will openly attack and take their revenge knowing that there will be nothing and no-one to stop them. All manner of new EU integration is on the way and we will be forced to accept whatever they propose. There are many examples in the past where our views have been voted down, these defeats will continue, and the admission of new members like Turkey will change the whole balance to our further detriment.
    Those who are campaigning most strongly for us to remain are generally the elites and establishment figures whose personal positions are at risk from our independence; they know they will be thrown off the gravy train they have ridden for so long. They are the vested interests who do not like the idea that ordinary people have a choice. Thus their use of fear tactics.

    The continuance of our national identities are at stake, threatened under present arrangements, they will be subject to direct attack if we do not vote to leave.

  • davidblameron

    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>THURSDAY 23RD JUNE : Your local polling station : 07:00 a:m : VOTE LEAVE X <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

  • Geoff

    A major tenet of the remaIN campaign is playing on the fear that no-one knows how Britain will be outside of Europe.

    This play on fear of the unknown overlooks the fact that no-one knows how Britain will be INSIDE Europe. It is forever changing, moving towards ‘Ever Closer Union’ and becoming a federal Europe controlled off our shores. Also, am I to understand that Cameron’s marvellous concessions only last 7 years? That is nothing when planning the future of our country.

    As a young man my first ever vote was the 1975 referendum as to whether Britain should stay in the European Economic Community, simply a trading agreement within a group of European Countries of similar economic standing, which seemed a good idea at the time. However since then it has become a German dominated Federation able to overule our laws and borders, and the mandate of ever closer union will be out of our control.

    Obama says that the US sacrifice in WW2 qualifies them with a stake in the referendum debate, however wasn’t their ‘sacrifice’ to prevent a Europe controlled and dominated by Germany?

    Needless to say, my vote is to leave.

  • largejack

    I don’t know anyone who wants to stay in

  • amanuenensi

    I do not know anyone who wants to leave..? The EU is wealthier per capita GDP than the US and has delivered social services unmatched on Earth. I am not driven by fear of unwashed masses, nor by Eurocrats, more by petulant little englanders who do not undestand basic constitutional law and economics, and are fueled by racism and fear. I want to stay in thank you, I like my standard of living and benefits and I know what the UK was like in 1976. Then people LEFT for anywhere if they could. It was a mess. No going back. Remain.

    • Norrie

      I don’t know if you are aware, or not, but there was a Britain before 1976. From the end of the Elizabethan era till the turn of the 20th century we built an Empire. The greatest Empire the world has ever seen. We opened up The United States and India with the Steam Engine (a train for our younger audience). The sun never set on the British Empire. Sadly, because we went to the aid of several European countries invaded by Germany, (Third time lucky???) our wealth was whittled away. The rise of the Labour Party was the final nail in the coffin.
      Half of all inventions are down to British innovation. If you don’t believe me Google ‘British Invention’ Maybe we will fail if we decide to leave. But I would put that down to Britishness being diluted by immigrant foreigners. It took nearly 500 years to the French influence out of our system. What do we need Europe for?? We still have the Commonwealth.
      To those that say it’s a step in the dark by leaving, tell me how many billions it will cost us in 5 years time, in 10 years time?? Tell me which crazy laws they’re going to spring on us in the future??
      Elderly people are said to be the most anti European. Why?? Because they’ve experienced Europe in the past during 2 World Wars. They’ve experienced the different political parties in power, Labour, Conservative and Liberal. They’ve heard the bare faced lies that politicians spout
      ‘We will be safer in Europe’ What they mean is ‘Europe will be safer with Britain looking out to defend them’. Count up how many countries sent troops to Iraq and Afghanistan and count how many troops they sent. Makes interesting reading.
      Remember, you were told a barrel full of lies in 1975 to get you into Europe. ‘VAT will NOT be introduced on food’ was one of them. ‘Our Coal and Steel Industries will be protected’. ‘There will be no loss of Sovereignty’.etc.etc.

    • Tom

      You must have missed your treatment.

    • Tom Cullem

      Everyone I know wants to leave.

      GDP measures productivity, not quality of life. You must have missed the articles talking about all the parents getting letters that there isn’t room for their child in the local primary school. And as for basic constitutional law: one of these days when we get a written constitution, come back and talk to us about it.

      And it’s lovely that you aren’t driven by fear of unwashed masses. That doesn’t mean they won’t ruin your country as they have Sweden.

      And as for that tired old “Little Englander” bit: perhaps you can explain why, loathsome and boring as it was, that half the world was banging down its doors to get in after WWII?

      Poor England – so awful those poets and writers and playwrights and painters and universities and laws – why, it gave so little to the world, it’s a wonder anyone noticed it was there in the first place.

      The Eurozone is stagnant; Italy’s banks are rotten; Greece is imploding; the migrant crisis was bungled from start to finish, and Merkel sold you to Turkey to save her political career and is now busy further appeasing Erdogan by sacrificing free speech in Germany.

      Did you also miss the bit about how much the EU loses to corruption every year?

      Apparently so. Wait till the next set of terror strikes is carried out by some of those lovely homegrown terrorists (that would be some of those great unwashed masses you’re so sentimental about) slipping back in through those open borders . . .

      • Jac

        Well said. I detest Lefty types that hate their fellow Brits.

        • bigbutchboy

          It’s a central theme of Remainiacs that their justification for voting IN is based on contempt for ordinary Brits, especially the white ones.

    • ANDY THOMPSON

      Everyone I know and everyone I have talked to is voting to leave. You must be talking to Immigrants who of course want us to remain in……

    • Jac

      I, also know what it was like in 1976, but life carried on after that, didn’t your’s? Everyone I know also wants to LEAVE. Devon and Cornwall are notoriously independent anyway, but they hate the EU with a vengeance down here. All my extensive family in the Midlands are also voting LEAVE, to a man, no exceptions. You must be a Londoner, who thinks Britain stops at the M25.

      • bigbutchboy

        There’s a lot of truth in that. The only people I know who want to remain live in London. Everyone outside wants to leave. I wonder why? Perhaps it has something to do with the EU only benefiting the capitals metropolitan elites.

        • KenT.

          It’s probably more to do with the fact that London is now more than 50% immigrant population. Turkeys don’t vote for Christmas

  • Jojje 3000

    Let’s be productive, let’s assume Brexit has lost both cause and referendum. How can we now mend the EU with UK as an influential and prosperous member, out of the recession ?

    We certainly need a UK leadership within the EU.

    • John

      We have NO influence in the EU.

      • Jojje 3000

        Not much, but you may build up and eventually be the leading nation.

        • Pete Stubbs

          IDIOT. You cant rule what you cant control. Are AAL voters as thick as you? WE HAVE NO SAY, there is no mechanism for us to SAY. Its a self apponyed dictatorship and no matter WHAT government we vote in, the EU trumps it all. WE MUST MUST MUST get out while we can.

          • Tom

            We are a mere cog in the EU’s monstrous wheel. Our influence is nil and our future as a nation will be destroyed. People have no idea what the EU has in mind for their future. If we stay in you should be very, very, scared. I would be.

          • Jojje 3000

            You are certainly not a ‘mere cog’, The UK is one of the three main economies within the EU but the UK has failed to exert influence in proportion.

            And the EU will be there cross the channel even after Brexit, Brittain really can’t escape, much better to face the challenge and make a better EU.

          • Jac

            We are a mere cog. All we are is a convenient cash-machine for Merkel and mates to use at their convenience. We get no say – see how much they cared about us leaving when they refused to concede the ‘mere’ changes wanted by Ducky Dave? They are starting to panic now, because they’ve realised that the money we don’t put in, will have to found from somewhere, and it is probably going to be Germany yet again, as no-one else has any money – France is bankrupt for all intents and purposes.
            Germany will NEVER let Britain have a leading role in the EU – it is primarily a vehicle for the ruling of Europe, by Germany, and what the German’s want, they get. Third time lucky for them – maybe. Sometimes the old adage has to be applied – be careful what you wish for, as you may just get it; in Germany’s case, they will have sole responsibility for all the debts in the Eurozone, on top of having to shell out for all the useless migrants Merkel imported. Greece, Spain and Italy are all sliding rapidly into unmanageable debt and will need bailing out. Suddenly, even though they may have the wealthiest economy in Europe, the money is going to start running short. They are already printing money at an alarming rate – how soon to the ‘wheelbarrow of Euros for a loaf of bread’ scenario again? Do we really want to stay in an (I use the term loosely) organisation that only put’s up with our presence because we are useful in providing funds? It’s all a shameful abuse of unelected power and I’m voting OUT. You please yourself, if you are prepared to live with the consequences.

          • Tom

            Can the Remainians truthfully contradict the facts that the EU is anti-democratic, unaccountable, un-elected (apart from powerless MEPs) corrupt,
            wasteful, dictatorial, incompetent and is declining, along with the euro.?

          • Jojje 3000

            Actually yes, as almost all western democratic institutions seems to go bananas nowadays. This is not specific to the EU. And that’s why the UK is wanted within the EU.

          • Jojje 3000

            Please…

        • English Patriot

          What planet are you living on, you moron. From the start the EEC/EU has been controlled by France as a substitute for their lost empire and paid for by us, the Germans and a few other anglo saxon nations. Do you really believe that the French are going to give that up?

          • Jojje 3000

            Yepp, they have been forced to do that before. The EU actually benefits from the power struggle between Britain, France and Germany.

            (Not nice calling me a moron).

  • John

    By all means vote Remain; IF you want to live in a country of 90 million ;IF you want to open borders to Turkey ( 75 million) Albania,Bosnia and Ukraine ; IF you want to find it impossible to get your choice of school for your kids ; IF you want to wait 6 weeks for a doctor’s appointment (assuming you can get one at all) ; IF you want to throw away our democracy and independence ; IF you have no faith in your own country – you know what to do !!
    Peace and Love.

    • Tom Cullem

      Today’s Die Welt had an article on how Islam is rising in Germany as Christianity recedes.

      Good God, and that stupid woman not only let a million in but to save her political career invited all of Turkey in, as well.

      What is it with these people?! Is there some lemming-like drive unconsciously driving all the leaders of Europe to ensure that its cultural heritage is shoved off the cliff of history as fast as possible so Islam can at last rule Europe?!

  • David Stanley

    If Mr Cameron wins because of his and the elite clubs dirty tricks then for the rest of his life he better watch out for the knife in his back. Et tu Brutus.

    • andrew Serban

      After reading your comment I farted

      • David Stanley

        Best part of you gone then?

      • KenT.

        Is this a hereditary ailment andrew?

  • Marian Dixon

    This is going to be fixed by Cameron-make no mistake !!

  • Alf

    The Declaration of Right, and the Bill of Rights, clearly state that –

    no foreign prince, person, prelate, state, or
    potentate hath, or ought to have, any jurisdiction, power, superiority,
    pre-eminence, or authority, ecclesiastical or spiritual, within this
    realm.

    To undermine this is treason!

    • David Stanley

      Damn right it is and that is why MP’s got rid of hanging for treason.

  • KenT.

    James Forsyth – You are seriously deluded in thinking Cameron has even half a chance of winning the referendum. The UK will be lost forever if we should decide to remain. Our country will be totally overtaken by migrants and our infrastructure will fail. The EU will own us, and the unelected Eurocrats will dictate every detail of how our country will be governed. Cameron WILL be forced to stand down as PM after the referendum, because we WILL leave and he will not be trusted to handle the country’s welfare positively. He will purposely cause a downturn in our economy so that he can spout “I told you so” This is our last chance people, don’t waste it.

  • David Lister

    If the people of this country vote to remain in the EU, Brussels will have succeeded where two world wars failed: TO CONQUER GREAT BRITAIN!!!

    • Jojje 3000

      And this is the core reason for many Brexiters, as I understand.

  • David Lister

    IF the nutters vote to remain, one thing is for certain the tories won’t be in again come the next general election.
    UKIP will get in and then we’ll have some fun with the EU!

    • KenT.

      David, we must make sure that the ‘out’ case is discussed in depth with all our family and friends, and show the ‘remain’ nutters the real strength of feeling amongst true Brits. The thought of being totally dominated by the EU and flooded with immigrants doesn’t bear thinking about. This is our last chance.

  • Tom

    Cameron will lose the EU Referendum and most certainly lose his job. All politicians’ lives end in failure and his one is particularly deserved.

    • Tom Cullem

      Neither the polls nor the bookies support your view, although I fervently hope your crystal ball is better than theirs . . .

      • Jac

        All the online media polls support an 80% OUT and only 20% in. They are on-the-spot polls, can’t be fiddled or manipulated by asking the ‘right’ people. so as to skew the result, which definitely does happen. Th ‘official’ polls were dead wrong for the GE, so what use are they for anything?

    • ANDY THOMPSON

      Yes but the Bookies have always been wrong in Political matters, and everyone I know and have talked to are voting out. So there maybe a lot more outs than ins in the final. That is of course unless the referendum is fixed.

      • Jac

        See my comment above – make sure that when you leave the polling station, register how you voted with the Exit poll people – at least then we have witnesses to how many vote LEAVE. I predict 80% of the turnout will be LEAVE.

    • JimRutland

      Really hope you right

  • Tom Cullem

    I have been saying for some time that the s***storm will only first emerge after Cameron gets the result he wants. He has always been a short-term thinker. Think what happened to Labour after it supported the NO vote with the Tories in the indy/ref. UKIP will probably gain millions of angry voters. The Tories will split – May is already hedging her bets.

    And what happens after REMAIN wins and the EU rolls out the legislation it has been keeping back and the voters cry FOUL?! Is Cameron really going to pretend he didn’t know what was on their back agenda?!

    What happens if another attack occurs and it becomes clear that James Clapper was right and the perpetrators slipped back into Europe through those open borders?

    What happens when the migration numbers just keep going up and up and up and up . . . where will it end if not in violence and disintegration?

    The worst is far yet to come, and the REMAIN victory will be its cause, not its resolution.

    The Home Secretary obviously looked at the Austrian elections this past weekend and wondered if she’d backed the wrong horse. The PM doubtless also saw the result of those elections but has not left himself room to maneuver further.

  • amanuenensi

    Everything Leave fears from terror and war, will happen regardless of the result of any referendum. If we think there is too much red tape and new laws now, just wait until we leave and have to do export applications to 122 countries and follow all their individual rules just to sell our cars beef and milk. The violence everyone here seems to fear “from migration numbers” is all in the mind: think Enoch Powell. Look around you, the wealth in the UK has not been only made by we, the British, but because of the EU and EU people. In 1976 we were broke, and busted. Millions of Brits were leaving for the colonies. Do not make the mistake of thinking what we have now, we did alone. We did not. We could not have done it alone. Unless you look around and see an England in decay and ruin, and if that is the case, I am truly sorry. We live in a different England.

    • Roy

      We already export to a great deal of Non EU countries that do not have any treaties with the EU and our exports to these countriesare increasing all the time so what you say is a fantasy

  • Bill Davies

    As someone who has read most of these posts, I find I am in agreement with the vast majority, yet it still saddens me to read that a few will cast their vote in the upcoming referendum, purely on the basis of their ideological upbringing, and not on facts which are easily obtained!
    For instance, there is one post which runs away with the idea, that this country has enhanced
    its wealth by being in the European Union ! O,h dear, ignorance is bliss!!
    As our debt stands today, we are in “Hock” to the tune of 1.7 Trillion pounds, and should you wish to regurgitate your breakfast, just take a depressing peak on the internet, at Britain,s
    debt clock. It runs continually, in an upwards direction, so no two readings are the same, We, as Britain,s populace, will have to find 42.5 Billion ( ALONE IN INTEREST THIS YEAR),which does not include the capital sum!! Yet the strange thing is, Obarmy, and Dipstick Dave are advocating to the younger generations, that they try and persuade us “Old wrinklies” to vote for Europe against our better judgement ! When you leave your computer, for whatever reason, I suggest you grab your progeny by the short and curlies, sit them down, and explain to them the facts of life, under the “Jackboots” of our European masters! These same
    masters that conceived their plan behind closed doors, which created at first “The Common Market” which with the passage of time and some creative and corrupt thinking. morphed into the European Union!! Added to which, the former we voted on which gave them a mandate from the people, to the latter, “The European Union”, which we have NEVER voted on, and never given a mandate for!!
    You can add to that the inability of our masters to get their bookwork signed off which leaves many of us with only one conclusion, and that is the sheer amount of corruption in high places.Into all that you need to add Cameron,s wishes that we help this corrupt organisation by giving them 10.5 bILLION annually to spend on absurd projects, and you ultimately get a recipe for disaster ! This genius knowing full well the extent of our debt, persists in giving our taxpayers money away to all and sundry without a second thought.
    to future generations.
    I,m convinced that the lunatics have taken over the country, because there is no sign whatever of intelligence or logic in their reasoning.
    Hopefully, fingers crossed, the last referendum to be held on the European Cesspit will shortly be held, and we,ll be shot of it!!
    Vote BREXIT.

    • Tom

      Well said, Bill. I trust you tell everyone you meet!
      Hopefully, the youngsters won’t come out to vote in their droves, or we’re sunk!

    • Roy

      This is the context of a document that the government have hidden under the 30 year rule which is one of two that we know about the other is the letter from Loord Kilmuir to Edward Heath again hidden under the 30 year rule.

      But it is not correct to regard the European Community Treaties as involving solely matters of a legal significance equivalent to that of other existing treaties. For example, in
      matters within the Community field (see Annex) we shall be accepting an external
      legislature which regards itself as having direct powers of legislating with
      effect within the United Kingdom, even in derogation of United Kingdom
      statutes, and as having in certain fields exclusive legislative competence, so
      that our own legislature has none;
      in matters in which the
      Community has already adopted a common policy, we shall be accepting that the
      Commission will jointly represent the Member States, who to that extent will
      have their individual international negotiating powers limited; and we shall in
      various fields be accepting a wide degree of coordination of our policy with
      that of the rest of the Community. All of this we shall be accepting “for an
      unlimited period”, with no provision for withdrawal.
      Membership would mean an
      increasing range of subjects on which Britain’s policy was concerted with the
      remainder of the Community and also that in negotiations with the rest of the
      world on matters forming the subject of common Community policies, there would
      be joint representation by the Commission. The Community being exclusive in
      character and membership also means in practice giving up some of our important
      links with the remainder of the world (Commonwealth Preference for example).
      The loss of external
      sovereignty will however increase as the Community develops, according to the
      intention of the preamble to the Treaty of Rome “to establish the foundations
      of an even closer union among the European peoples”.
      By accepting the
      Community Treaties we shall have to adapt the whole range of subsidiary law
      which has been made by the Communities. Not only this but we shall be making
      provision in advance for the unquestioned direct application (i.e. without any
      further participation by Parliament) of Community laws not yet made (even
      though Ministers would have a part, through membership of the Council, in the
      making of some of these laws). Community law operates only in the fields
      covered by the Treaties, viz, customs duties; agriculture; free movement of
      labour; services and capital; transport; monopolies and restrictive practices;
      state aid for industry; and the regulation of the coal and steel and nuclear
      energy industries. Outside this considerable range there would remain unchanged
      by far the greater part of our domestic law
      Community law is
      required to take precedence over domestic law: i.e. if a Community law
      conflicts with a statute, it is the statute which has to give way. This is
      something not implied in other commitments which we have entered into in the
      past. Previous treaties have imposed on us obligations which have requiredus to
      legislate in order to fulfil the international obligations set out in the
      treaty, but any discrepancy between our legislation and the treaty obligations
      has been solely a question of a possible breach of those international
      obligations the conflicting statute has still undoubtedly been the law to be
      applied in this country. But the community system requires that such Community
      Law as applies directly as law in this country should by virtue of its own
      legal force as law in this country prevail over conflicting national
      legislation.
      The Law Officers have
      emphasised that in accepting Community Law in this country we shall need to
      make it effective as part of a new and separate legal order, distinct from, but
      co-existing side by side with, the law of the United Kingdom. They have
      referred to the basic European Communities Treaty provisions as amounting
      “ineffect to a new body of ‘Federal’ statute law”.
      In lay terms we may say
      that if Britain joined the Community there would be many implications for both
      external and internal (particularly parliamentary) sovereignty. Some of these
      would be wholly novel, and the general effect particularly in the longer turn
      would be of more pervasive and wide-ranging change than with any earlier
      commitments. Largely this is because the Community treaties when drawn up were
      seen as arrangements not merely for collaboration but for positive integration
      of large parts of the economic and social life of the Member States. As a
      result the conventional theoretical line dividing internal from external
      affairs has become blurred, a process which as we have seen is already
      advancing with the development of transnational economic activity.
      In the public debate
      advocates of entry deny that sovereignty will be lost or transferred and argue
      that account should be taken “of the effective ability of Britain’s national
      institutions to protect and advance the interests, domestic and external, of
      the British people”. They imply that sovereignty as defined above should be
      disregarded – considering it to have been eroded past usefulness by GATT, NATO
      etc and the powerlessness of the medium sized state acting alone. Although this
      approach rides roughshod over “sovereignty” in its technical sense it has the
      merit that in addressing the political rather than the legal reality it comes
      nearer to the sources of active public concern.
      but it will be in the
      British interest after accession to encourage the development of the Community
      toward an effectively harmonised economic, fiscal and monetary system and a
      fairly closely coordinated and consistent foreign and defence policy. This sort
      of grouping would bring major politico/economic advantages but would take many
      years to develop and to win political acceptance. If it came to do so then
      essential aspects of sovereignty both internal and external would indeed
      increasingly be transferred to the Community itself.

  • tony kent

    If nothing else, we will hopefully see the back of this smarmy shyster!

  • Dominico

    If we are stupid enough to vote to “Remain” we are forked. The country will divide – never mind the tories. Even duct tape can’t cure stupid.

  • JimRutland

    Hope to God we do not stay in this God forsaken union. WE want our Democracy back. Notice ‘they’ are dradingout releasing the stats on Immigration just in case it effects voting. Vote out for our sovereignty and democracy and this crazy American trade agreement.

  • richard davis
  • Jac

    They won’t be getting the support of the once-Labour supporters, though, so Cameron and his loyal little lap-dogs won’t be getting their victory – loads of previous-Labour supporters have switched allegience to UKIP, because Labour doesn’t represent their interests any longer, so they will be voting OUt, also.

  • Jac

    To ALL LEAVE voters: When you leave the polling station, after making your cross with a BIRO PEN, make sure you go straight to the EXIT POLL PEOPLE AND LET THEM KNOW HOW YOU VOTED. This goes some way to stopping Cameron rigging the vote.

  • helmckie mcdonald

    The only losers in this are the British tax payer & citizens what ever way you look at the result the EU will still screw over the UK THE POLITICIANS IN THIS COUNTRY ARE OUT OF TUNE WITH BRITISH VIEWS & CONCEPTS they get elected then forget who elected them & for what purpose to fund there own importance & greed ?

  • Richard Gibb

    I was right. The Remain Camp are claiming Victory even before the VOTE. Frankly though, the Remain Camp is as Genuine as Patton’s army in Kent in 1944 the one that Hitler and his generals expected to cross from Dover to Calais. That was done by the Government as well.

  • Carol

    We will see …hopefully people will wake up and finally realise the consequences if we Remain. The country will be bitterly divided if the Remain win and vice versa. We should come out and go it alone we were once a great nation and can be again.

  • John

    What helps the Remain case is the sheer ignorance and stupidity of much of the British electorate.As Churchill observed “The best argument against democracy is a 5 minute conversation with the average voter” So as long as they have their Jeremy Kyle,Football and fizzy lager – they’re happy to be ruled by anybody. Here’s an example from my local rag.
    INTERVIEWER : How will you vote and what are your reasons ?
    18 YEAR OLD YOUTH : I’ll vote IN cos it’s best, innit ?
    (OK I added the “innit” – but you take my point).

    • Tom

      Without doubt, the Remainians are relying on the dullards to vote for them. This Referendum should show the state of our Educational System. Please God we get through to them, or else.

      • John Litttler

        There a very clear relationship between standard of education and voting intension.
        It is the poorly educated who are going for leave( and Trump).
        Science, academia, business at all levels, most politicians and parties, virtually all world leaders, diplomats, military leaders, most security chiefs and students are for Remain.
        Remain is 10% ahead in phone polls, which are the most accurate. Also the young do not have fixed phones so would be underrepresented, but they are also big for remain.

  • Bodkinn

    If the remainers manage to con the public into voting to stay and it all goes pear shaped with the EU dragging us down with it then those responsible for staying better move quickly before the British public come looking for them. It will be a day of retribution writ large.

    • John Litttler

      The EU is 508m relatively rich people in a Single Market. It is going nowhere.

      The Euro cannot be destroyed by speculators, as it is far too big. and it is not based on debt. It has risen relative to the US & CAN $’s since it’s launch. If it was weak as you suggest, it would have gone down.

      • Roy

        You mean like it is doing now. The more poor countries that join the more that the Euro will get weaker. this is a fact. It is imposible for countries like Germany and poor countries like Greece to work with the Euro, it is fiscally imposible and can only mean one thing and that is either the ruin of the poor countries or the failing of the Euro.Which Germany is doing right now, Germany is buying up most of the Greek bussiness by force at rock bottom prices and denuding Greece of industy which it will nead if it is to get out of the finiancial troubles.

    • Stephen T

      It is this sort of incendiary and threatening language that is going to lose it for the brexiteers. What do you mean by “retribution”?.

  • amanuenensi

    If leave wins, the rest of us would sit and watch UK GDP slide, red tape increase, watch Dover Immigration & Customs become the entry point for refugees. watch the European per capita GDP rise steadily above ours, watch the City lose its pre-eminent international position (as it just trades in the UK), watch Frankfurt & Paris compete for EU financial services capital, watch as investment slows, industry folds up and moves, police, defence, hospitals and health services deteriorate, universities slow down, (less foreign students and income), watch as we all have to get short term visas at £150 a pop to go on holiday to Cannes or Ibiza, watch as we need increasingly militaristic government to “keep control”, watch Scotland, Northern Ireland, and Wales all vote to secede the Union and join the EU, and then after fifteen years of self inflicted decline, the sick man of Europe England, will ask to rejoin the EU. We will not get “Trump violence” on the streets, we will not seek “retribution writ large” on the fearful old fools who put us in this mess, we will just shed a tear for the elderly, the sick and all of us workers and students who suffered needlessly as a result of fear, myopia, and far right jingoism. But we will be back. For sure. 100%. Sadder and poorer, but back.

    • Bertie

      I’ve read some scaremongering jibberish in my time but you take the biscuit.

      For starters, the Immigration border wont move to Dover with regard to the refugees because the EU has nothing to do with the current set up – it is a bilateral deal signed between France /UK. Le Touquet agreement.

      Threats to ditch it are just that – Even in the unlikely event the threats turn to reality, they need to give two years notice. In the event of such better security precautions to prevent anyone coming down tunnel – anyone who does has clearly entered the UK illegally from France – so we just deposit them back in France.

      The £150 visa is simply so alarmist and incorrect as to be laughable.

      Surprised you didnt mention all the other fallacious claims of the Remain/StrongerIn campaign.

      Big fan of the Treasury £4300 tripe I expect as well aren’t you.

      And since when has Democracy, wanting to rule ourselves been right wing jingoism?? I’ve seen dishonesty but you make Goebbels look positively angelic.

      • John Litttler

        It is right wing jingoism making the main thrust and that lot will be running the government in a few months if it happens.

        Beware a bonfire of workers rights to add to that of union rights.

    • John Litttler

      You are absolutely right, except on the visa’s.

      If we leave the single market we lose rights to sell services freely, inward investment into manufacturing dries up and it will be a turn in the screw in national decline after having improved our national economic position over the EU years relatively and actually.

      Another government in many years hence would have had a long time to consider the matter and would be elected to take us back in on worse terms after many people’s jobs and lives would have been trashed.

      • Roy

        There will not be an EU in many years time because of the unrest of the people of the EU, they have had enough, you only have to see the riot in countries of the EU and the amount of them that are requesting a referendum themselves. This is the TRUE FACTS.

    • Roy

      Is that the reason that the GDP of the EU is going downhill and that britain is exporting more to the non EU, also that the amout of exports to the EU is droping rapidly. Apart from Germany Britain is the strongest and is doing a lot better that the rest of the EU because we are not in the Euro, which will crash as has been said by some other EU Politicians if we leave. So much for a strong Euro, if a country that is not even in the Euro can make it totter and fall.

  • Freeuk Militia

    the remianers are like submissive zombies incapable or working out of the EU is a safe zone or a war zone if it is safe for migrants or not. They cant decide if its better economically or not. the remianers are basically made up of the scared and weak been led by a small greedy elite. This vote and debate should primarily be about Sovereignty and the nation State and whether we want in a USSR style Europe rune by a small unelected elite.

  • amanuenensi

    Please lets do a deal now. If we leave, fine, its done, game over, lets get on making Britain as great as we can. But if we vote to stay, will you all please stop going on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on about this complete rubbish. Can you just accept the vote and, with the rest of us, get on with making Britain great in the EU. Please?

    • Tom

      There is no way that Britain could be “great inside the doomed EU” ! We have no influence and are directed how to live by unelected, and unaccountable europrats. The doomed EU is anti-democratic, full of failed old politicians and always has a suspicious set of Accounts, which have never been fully approved by their Auditors.. We need to get OUT and SOON !

      • John Litttler

        The EU has a parliament elected by PR. The UK’s is unrepresentative of it’s voters.

        The UK has unelected House of Lords and Head of State.

        The EU has the Council of Ministers of elected heads of governments and the Commission whose head is elected by the largest party in parliament.

        The countries Farage and co wish us to trade with are way up the international league of corruption.

        The EU is the largest, richest body of people in the history of the world and is going nowhere.

    • wbveigyezs

      NO. We will not EVER stop fighting until not just Brexit, but until the rest of Europe has been liberated from the EU. It will be samson option if remain wins.

      • amanuenensi

        The Samson option. Are you serious? The Israeli’s regard that as destroying everything. Is that a widely shared Brexit view? Someone should notify the National Crime Agency, Talk about a bridge too far. We are to attack Cannes? Bomb Portofino? What nonsense is this?

    • John Litttler

      The rubbish will be endless, pointless and dumb, like a one legged man trying to kick himself in the leg.

  • amanuenensi

    The euro is the strongest reserve currency in the world, and like the US Federal Reserve, the euro can never be broken, nor can a run ever beat the ECB. It is invulnerable to debt and currency speculators. The assets of the ECB exceed 3000 billion (that is three thousand billion) and it can write a sum triple that. There is no country, company, bank or nation on earth with that kind of financial firepower. No currency manipulators on earth could touch it. Europe is the greatest creator of wealth ever seen, giving the highest standards of living for more people than has ever happened in history in all time. Europe will continue to deliver this prosperity and wealth for its citizens whether we are in or out. The only nation that might suffer and will certainly become more vulnerable, if we leave, is us. Sadly.
    You are all being conned by the people who say Europe is weak and failing – it certainly is not.

    • John

      Tell that to all the unemployed youth of Greece , Spain and Italy.

      • amanuenensi

        They probably do not know it, correct, but they do want to stay in. The fact that the ECB does impose financial discipline on governments who have been a little lax, is a good thing, not a bad thing. The overall objective is everyones prosperity, not to line the pockets of thieves, but imagine these countries now if they were on their own. They would be gone. Completely gone. The fact is, that will never happen. The ECB as a lender of last resort has, and will, keep the wolves from the door. Always.

      • John Litttler

        They were there before the Euro and always had to leave the area for work. It does not help to be on the edge of a continent, living in a desert with few opportunities outside of tourism. Also, the Spanish employment policies encourage casualisation.

        Greece is a middle income country which runs on endemic corruption and a failure to pay or gather taxes and ridiculous unaffordable public sector pay and pensions terms. It is not the EU’s fault that they mismanaged their country to badly and they are being bailed out by the EU, hence no one wishes to leave and they are certainly not listening to little englanders misunderstandings.

        • John

          I agree with (about half) of your post – especially the point about endemic corruption, tax evasion and public finance irresponsibility. This itself may not be the fault of the EU , but the decision to admit Greece certainly was.

          Also – since they are in the Euro straightjacket , they have no control of their own economic policy. The standard mechanism for dealing with a recession is to have available the means to devalue your way out of trouble (by making your exports instantly cheaper). But since Germany (in effect) controls the money supply (and therefore interest rates) – this option is not available to them. They therefore are consigned to struggling through the current mess as best they can until Germany relents (if they ever do)

          I was also disappointed at your deployment of this rather over-used and somewhat sneery phrase “Little Englander” to describe people who (presumably) hold opinions different from your own. If you referred to other nationalities as “Little Norwegians” or “Little Irelanders” they would probably (quite rightly) hit the roof.

          I’m also interested to know what these “misunderstandings” are as mentioned in your final sentence.

          • John Litttler

            Greece has grown it’s economy and improved it’s infrastructure and increased most living standards since joining the EU despite their crisis.
            The crisis is of Greece’s own making. That is very clear.
            People recall what it was like to have a weak Drachma, which did not enable them to easily engage with the world. Imports and foreign travel were very expensive and Greece never made very much. Many had to go abroad for work then.
            People want the power and liberation of the Euro, which is too big to be rounded on by speculators and also offers them much lower interest rates.
            I agree that they cannot devalue themselves to be more competitive, but that is not the pancea it is painted and just shifts the problem around. They have little to export to make more competitive. Remember, a lot of Greece is like a desert, offering not many opportunities outside of tourism.
            Germany has made a virtue out of sound money and made a huge success out of that and not be competitively devaluing the DMark it used to have.
            The answer is for the Euro zone to integrate fiscal policy and for transfer payments to Greece, as in USA to states. Also, free movement allows it’s people to travel for work.

          • Christine Baker

            Read eutruth.org.uk

    • Bertie

      Hahahaha thanks for the laughs. You’re a Comedian right?

      Look what it’s done to Greece. Families giving up children to Church because they cant afford to feed them.Mass unemployment. No prospects. 3rd bailout coming

      The overthrow of democratically elected governments in Greece and Italy.

      You really haven;t a clue have you

      Only people being conned are those that fall for the lie that is Remain/StrongerIn

      The evidence, that’s facts, such as trade figures as percentage of world trade, ballooning national debts, mass unemployment rather than your suppositions above, point to your claims being completely erroneous.

      You do know the difference between Europe and EU right? Because it is the EU that is impoverishing Europe, a Europe that previously had provided those superior standards of living you mentioned when they were “independent sovereign” nations.

      It’s been downhill ever since they set foot on the Political Union path, and prosperity has declined accordingly.

      • amanuenensi

        You are sir, just wrong, on every single fact. You are also wrong on the causation of unemployment since 2008. That was caused by regulatory failure, ironically by the Americans, and us, not the EU. The problems of Greece Spain and to a lesser extent Italy are also political and regulatory failures, but they are being sorted and none of them want out. Ever increasing prosperity in Europe since 1950 has been because of the common market and no other reason.

      • John Litttler

        The Euro has also done better than the US$ since it’s launch, as well as the CAN$. The Euro was released in parity with the US$, but has climbed ahead.

  • William Evans

    I don’t think or feel Cameron is heading for any victory at all! The is a complete buffoon as he displayed again when discussing corrupt countries in from of the Queen, what an embarrassment this mature leader is!? Maybe he should concentrate on the corruption closer to home across the channel!?

  • John Litttler

    This referendum will solve nothing, not even the split in the Tory Party which will get far worse. The Scottish neverendum solved nothing.

    Quebec has had three NO’s so far and probably not the last threatening to cut Canada’s relatively modest sized population pointlessly down the middle into three parts.

    A trawl around various discussion and tabloid sites shows just how low the level of discussion and understanding is on the EU issues. Flag waving narrow nationalism, anti muslim sentiment and emotional rants against the Euro are much of it.

    Now Farage is saying that the fight for second referendum will go on if they lose this one, which they know they probably will. Of course it will continue. What would be the point of UKIP if they didn’t.

    To any potential politician of the future who might then consider a referendum, DONT!, just don’t. Remember the risks, the uncertainty and the whipping up of every knarled malcontent to no good reason and once the genie is out. It’s going to go on and on.

    We have a representative democracy. Lets just make it actually representative and work properly to get better decisions made and made closer to people and end this churlish nonsense.

    By the way, Remain is 10% ahead in the phone polls, which are the most accurate. This is despite young people having few fixed phones and being strongest for Remain.
    One Million Remain leaflets were given out last weekend by 1000 groups, in addition to Labour and LibDems groups campaigning for Remain out right across the country.

    • John

      Quite right – can’t be having too much of this democracy nonsense. On the other hand , if you’re advocating a TRULY fair voting system (PR – or some variant) then I’m right with you.
      Regarding your last point about numbers of leaflets given out – this wouldn’t be anything to do with the Remain campaign having 3 times the budget would it ?? (or am I wrong?)

      • Christine Baker

        You have completely shown your naivety by your few words. Oh god we have to tolerate brainless sods like you in Britain. Not even any sense of history either.

        • John

          Just to set the record straight – I was actually being sarcastic although it doesn’t always come through in the printed word.
          For the record – I am very firmly OUT !

  • McDemon

    This is what happens when you try and be clever and pledge support to a referendum with no actual belief that one is going to be in a position to have to actually do it, it was a calculation to calm soft tory voters nerves to stop them voting for UKIP…winning the election outright was a total unexpected result which is great if one is a tory except that bogus promise to hold a referendum now had to be honoured…and ironically what began with a lie now is the dagger that cuts deep..whatever the outcome of the referendum, Cameron (and Osbourne) are dead in the water….and if remain wins the legal wranglings could go on for years..with a certain 2nd referendum either because the 1st may be ruled unlawful and/or the pressure to run a fair referendum will be enormous…Well done “call me Dave”..thats what happens when you lie.

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