Leading article

In fear we trust: how the Tories became addicted to negativity

30 April 2016

9:00 AM

30 April 2016

9:00 AM

Strange as it may seem, there are still people around David Cameron who regard the Scottish referendum campaign as a great success. Yes, they say, the nationalists didn’t like the original ‘Project Fear’ — the attempt to frighten Scotland into voting no — but it worked. Alex Salmond was defeated by a 10 per cent margin — proof, it’s argued, that relentless negativity works. Those who complain about it are either losers, or too squeamish to win. Andrew Cooper, chief of the Scottish ‘in’ campaign, said afterwards that the only criticism he would accept is that it was not negative enough. This attitude is a poison in the bloodstream of the Conservative party.

Voters can smell the poison in Zac Goldsmith’s disgraceful campaign for London Mayor, which will come known only for his bizarre smears against his rival, Sadiq Khan. And the positive case for Zac? Even he struggled to articulate it. He will soon see how effective all this has been. And how persuasive was Cooper’s Project Fear in Scotland? As the polls showed, it relentlessly repelled voters from unionism. A country once ambivalent about separation has been turned into an SNP one-party state.

Yes, relentless fearmongering and negativity wins elections, but its side effects are monstrous: if you have nothing good to say about yourself, only venom to spray at your opponents, then you won’t keep or recruit supporters. Pummelling a weak opponent allowed the Tories to win the last general election — but as Freddy Gray argues in this week’s cover story, it was a deceptive victory. The Conservatives have a majority (just), but the party has been hollowed out, its membership falling, its constituency associations in decay and now facing abolition.

It is no surprise that, when it came to the EU referendum campaign, Andrew Cooper was asked to revive Project Fear — to give a fix to a Tory leadership now addicted to negativity. But the wider cost of this tactic can be seen not only in Tory membership numbers, but in Scotland itself. After the referendum, the unionist parties went into meltdown. The SNP took all but three of Scotland’s 59 Westminster seats.

Screen Shot 2016-05-01 at 17.24.28

And this was no referendum hangover. Nicola Sturgeon’s tartan army, enthused by her optimistic talk about nationhood and destiny, is poised to win another huge victory in next week’s Holyrood elections.

The SNP (as James Forsyth details) looks certain to retain its majority in a parliament designed so that no party could ever win a majority. The Prime Minister’s response has been to keep congratulating himself on his Scottish referendum win, and pretend that the aftermath of that referendum is not happening. Astonishingly for someone who is supposed to be Prime Minister of the whole of the United Kingdom, he has not shown his face in Scotland during this campaign. He has found time to be in Wales this week, but he has not ventured north of the border.

That is both prudent and depressing; prudent because the Conservative ‘brand’ in Scotland remains tarnished by its association with the Prime Minister and his Chancellor. Depressing because it makes Mr Cameron seem as though he is a foreigner in his own country. In many ways he is — and he is not alone. Frank Field spoke for many English MPs this week when he observed that Scotland is ‘another country’ whose independence is now all but inevitable. The post-referendum realignment of Scottish politics has not just sunk the Scottish Labour party. It has driven a wedge between Scotland and the rest of the United Kingdom. North and South Britain feel more estranged than ever.

As Robert Burns put it, ‘The best-laid schemes o’ mice an’ men/ Gang aft agley.’ Far from cementing Scotland’s place within a reformed Union, devolution (and Westminster’s botched response to it) has offered the nationalists a path to independence. Of Holyrood’s 73 constituencies, 66 are likely to return a nationalist MSP. This system distorts reality: Scotland is a country evenly divided between nationalists and unionists, but one camp will take home all the prizes.

The architecture of devolution hands the SNP another advantage: the nationalists can simultaneously be in power and in opposition; they govern Scotland while remaining opposed to whichever unionist party happens to be in power at Westminster. The deck is rigged in their favour and Nicola Sturgeon, like her predecessor Alex Salmond, is an accomplished card sharp. Her popularity is for the time being unassailable. The referendum realigned Scottish politics. It made little sense for ‘yes’ voters to continue to support unionist parties after the referendum and most have followed that logic to its inevitable conclusion: a vote for the SNP. Ms Sturgeon’s party now has more members than the British army has soldiers.

Nicola Sturgeon has shown that, contrary to conventional wisdom, people are interested in politics — they will turn up to meetings, and join parties if the message inspires them. This week, The Spectator sold out all 2,200 seats in the London Palladium on our debate about the EU referendum. There is plenty of enthusiasm for politics, which can be harnessed by political leaders bold and imaginative enough to give people something vote for — rather than just an enemy to vote against.

A referendum is a clarifying moment but not necessarily a decisive one. The independence referendum caused a breach between Scotland and the Westminster parties that now feels wider than ever. Negativity and fearmongering can win a referendum, but it is also toxic to the popularity and strength of any political movement. Something that David Cameron, or his successor, may have plenty of time to reflect upon once the EU referendum is over.


Show comments
  • James Chilton

    Project Fear:

    If the British people still have even half the resistance to intimidation they used to have, the fearmongering campaign of Cameron & Co will backfire and make them resolve to vote Brexit in the referendum.

    • Mary Ann

      But brexit is also stirring up fear, and also stirring up hate.

  • Mary Ann

    Brexiters complain about project fear, but the brexiters own campaign is driven by project hate.

    • John

      Yes you’re right. Hatred of dictatorship by an unelected and unaccountable bureaucracy , hatred of a tsunami of insane “directives”, hatred of endemic corruption and hatred of the epic waste of OUR money – currently running at 20 billion a year.

      • Mary Ann

        Where do you get 20 billion a year from? and how much would it be if we left the EU.

      • Henry Hooper

        Logically you must therefore hate Westminster,,,they’ve ran up 1.6trillion in debt, 60% of that in the last 7 years…I think you should go for a ‘Johnxit’
        20billion a year is absolute peanuts compared to Wastemonster Debt, is it not?

    • antoncheckout

      To want the sovereignty of a national Parliament, the control of national borders, and democratic accountability to the electorate, are fairly basic tools of liberty throughout the ages. It is natural to hate those who try to curb those basic freedoms.

      • Mary Ann

        Hate makes rational judgement more difficult.

        • LittleRedRidingHood

          I agree. Which is why it is difficult to get through to the leftist thugs who thrive on violence and intimidation, not debate.

      • Henry Hooper

        You must’ve been a strong supporter of Scottish Independence Anton..well done!!

        Or are you just a British Nationalist that cant stand the though of Representative Democracy if the results aren’t to your liking…its either one or the other…..go tell…what is it?

    • John Carins

      Brexiters do not hate the people of Europe.

      • Mary Ann

        Oh yea, The only brexiter I know wants Britain to leave the EU because, I quote. “hates Muslims and blacks” you have to accept the fact that a lot of brexiters want to leave Europe because they are racists. It doesn’t of course mean all brexiters are racists, and this man did seem surprised when I pointed out that our Muslims and blacks don’t generally come from the EU, he hadn’t even engaged his brain but his vote counts as much as yours and mine. That’s frightening.

        • CockneyblokefromReading

          Mary, I’m a bigot (not a racist), and the principle reason I want Out is immigration. However, that’s not the whole picture. I don’t even want Americans or Australians coming here – we’re full up! My views are not based on Asia. Britain has enough people. We should be closing our border this afternoon. Instead, for every minute that passes, another immigrant (officially) arrives…every minute…one a minute. We cannot carry on like this. Can’t you see that?

        • John Carins

          You only know one Brexiter. You should get out more. The polls show that 50% want out. You need to get away from your current circle of friends and be a bit more tolerant.

          • Andrew Cole

            She is a Hermit(ess) living in isolation in France.

          • John Carins

            That partly explains it. She should meet up with Frexiters.

          • Andrew Cole

            Lol. She will have to sooner or later as Le Pen gets closer to the top job.

          • John Carins

            Mais bien sur. Le Pen est plus fort que l’epee. Boris could use that one! I try not to encourage Mary Ann

        • goodsoldier

          Mary Anne makes up stories about racists and bigots she knows who also happen to be Brexiters. Well, does she know about the paedophile who wants to stay in the EU commission because it permits paedophilia with impunity? Brussels is a haven for this sort of perversion and certain pro-EU British political elites have been going to and fro to enjoy the delicacies on offer. These are the Remainers Mary Anne. You can put this in your table of contents and moan about it.

        • Mr B J Mann

          Wot? They swim round Spain?!

    • LittleRedRidingHood

      Rubbish Mary Ann. Common sense is not hate.
      But that is all the leftists have. Labels to try to shame.

  • Henry Hooper

    “This system distorts reality: Scotland is a country evenly divided between nationalists and unionists, but one camp will take home all the prizes”
    Utter nonsense. There’s a PR voting system that provides List MP’s of all hues so that everyone gets representation almost exactly as per there voting %age…a very very fair system compared to Westminster where the Tories have a majority when they got less than 1/3rd of the electorate support.
    Scotland is certainly not a one party state, its PR system was design to prevent such a thing happening its very democratic and it actually works well, witness the current debacle about whether tactical voting can work and there you have it.
    Back to Brexit….I’m a ‘remain’ supporter (marginally/ just) but I can see that this short termism of a win any any cost thru use of blatant scare-mongering will eventually lead to Brexit, if not now then in the near future it might even be the case that folk might as well vote for it because unless the remain side win by 2:1 this is never going to go away, nor should it, its just common sense (as if such a thing exists among our politicians who are clearly cut off from reality if folk are unenthusiastic for Remain then what’s the point – commitment is extremely important, who is more committed?….take a lesson from the Scots Indy campaign.

    • John Carins

      In the main the Unionist vote is split. You can vote Labour, Tory or LibDem. Scotland needs a proper single Unionist party to stop the madness of the numpty SNP.

      • Henry Hooper

        the only unionist party in Scotland is the ‘Conservative and Unionist’ party.
        Very few are strongly enthusiastic of this UK union in a broadly similar vein to why not so many folk south of the border are particularly enthusiastic about the EU.
        Nothing numpty about the SNP, their powerlessness hasn’t been letting them down at Westminster, looks like they’ve become the de-facto opposition at WM. week after week thy show up those ‘career’ politicians
        So go on show off to me you vast array of justification why the SNP are ‘numpty’…is it because they are going to be voted for a third term with an overall majority in a parliament voting system designed so no party could ever take overall control (at the time Labour) but they are because they are so popular and that just so gets you back up…because you’re a dyed-in-the wool unionist?

        …..not gettgin your own way?…. now throwing your toys out the pram…aawww diddums

        • John Carins

          The Tories are no longer an Unionist party. They have with Labour and the LibDems created the conditions for numpty parties like the SNP to thrive. The SNP are numpty because of the danger they pose to the unity of the peoples of these Islands.

          • Henry Hooper

            you must be sandwich short of a picnic…….let me see, the “Conservative and Unionist Party’ are not Unionists that’s like telling me the Scottish National Party are not Nationalists…now…ffs make up you mind

            Ahh…penny dropped you;re a kipper…..lo….lol….lol….lol.

          • John Carins

            The SNP are socialists and nationalists. This combination makes them an analog of a certain party from Germany’s past. The Tories claim to be Unionist but their actions would indicate that this claim is no longer valid. I’m off to eat my sandwich.

          • Henry Hooper

            The SNP are being harangued currently for not being socialists….funny that.
            What Tory actions are you talking about?
            Use of Godwins Law means you’ve just lost any argument you were trying to make

          • John Carins

            The SNP is a left wing party. They are being harangued by the real looney fringe because even they realise that their socialist policies are not feasible. If you don’t understand that then there is no hope for you. Tory actions: encouraging and agreeing to further devolution….do you want some more?

          • Mr B J Mann

            That certain party from Germany’s past is also being harangued currently for not being socialists. Usually by their ffratricial evil twins the International Socialists!

            Dontcha just love family feuds?!

            It’s like the Sunni and Shia.

            Or am I thinking of Soonny and Cher?!

        • Mr B J Mann

          But that because the Scottish vote is like a Scotland-wide by-election!

    • Mary Ann

      So if the remainers win the brexiters will not respect the decision of the people. If it is the other way round I fear the remainers will respect the decision of the brexiters if they win, what does that say about brexit. Prehaps we should just allow Westminster to vote on the issue, after all the ones who want to alter the status quo, want more power for Westminster, they should be happy.

      • John Carins

        A Brexit win will reshape many misguided minds in Westminster. Also, over time the people will vote for candidates that better represent an independent British view. This will make Westminster better and fit for purpose.

        • Henry Hooper

          what on earth is in independant British view. Politics in Scotland are completely and utterly different to that in England. Go, please tell me what they’ve got in common…you can’t though can you

          • John Carins

            Many surveys show that Scots share the same common ancestry with the rest of the UK. We are all British. Try and be less divisive. It’s only numpties in the SNP that have stirred up this division.

          • Henry Hooper

            Ethnically we are exactly the same, the same as Dutch and Germans too.
            Scottish Indy is solely about Representative Democracy and absolutely nothing else…that why unlike Cameron with the EU ref is Salmond was fully supportive of having English born residents voting in the Scottish indyref.

          • John Carins

            I don’t think Salmond had any choice in the matter. You make him sound so magnanimous. If English born residents had been prevented from voting then that would had to apply to all other different nationalities. Would all the Scots that live in England (e.g Corby) be then denied a vote in their English constituency? The reason English born residents got the vote is not because of Salmond, it’s because we are British.

          • Henry Hooper

            So why shouldn’t European living in the UK, paying taxes in the UK not get the vote then..I’ve a little maroon passport ..haven’t you?

          • Mr B J Mann

            Because they claim the EU isn’t a country.

            Can we vote in the US (or anyone else’s) Presidential elections?

            After all, we’re all in the UN, WTO……

          • MichtyMe

            Aye right. The census reveiled that the locality which most self identifies as British is Tower Hamlets.

          • Andrew Cole

            Proabably because other areas identified themselves as English whereas Tower Hamlets and other high ethnic areas do talk of British. After all that’s what we are all supposed to but as our nationality isn’t it?

          • MichtyMe

            Suppose Mr Carins must be multiculturalist then.

          • Andrew Cole

            No idea he could either Welsh or Scottish or a pro EU Englishman because it is apparently bad taste to be a patriotic Englishman where it is fine for Scots and Welsh to be patriotic.

          • Mr B J Mann

            Poolitics in Germany, France, Italy, Poland. Romania…..are completely and utterly different to that in Britain.. Go, please tell me what they’ve got in common… you can’t though can you!

      • Henry Hooper

        its not about respecting the decision , the decision has to be clear cut and its strongly in danger of not being due to the stupid and silly tactics of the Remain side.
        The issue needs put to rest..the Scotttish indyref spoke volumes of what happens if you don’t run a positive campaign….and Cameron is doing it again
        I reckon last week alone after BBCQT support for Brexit zoomed after Paddy Pantsdown started spouting off nonsense

        • Mary Ann

          Well I didn’t see Paddy Ashdown but I understand from friends that did that he stood up very well making sensible points against the all the others who were brexiters, but I suppose it depends on your point of view.

          • Henry Hooper

            Sorry Mary Ann,,,check it out for yourself on iplayer.
            He was far from marvellous..i was screaming at the telly…and if the Remain side lose, it will be views expressed by the likes of him that will be to blame.

          • Andrew Cole

            He didn’t. With his slow long winded monologues which were so old hat that even current lot don’t use it he lost the audience every time.

            Kate Hoey made mincemeat of him several times.

          • LittleRedRidingHood

            He talked absolute rubbish and belittled anyone that supported brexit. Another establishment nonce with his snout in the trough.

      • Andrew Cole

        Mary Ann. If remain wins then we will accept it. That doesn’t mean that we won’t all vote UKIP because they will then be the only party ever likely to give us another chance.

        An exact replay of what happened in Scotland. All those that voted for independence vote in the only party likely to give them another chance.

        That chance may well be a long time away, a decade or more but the Tories and Labour will see it as done and dusted after this vote and it will not be offered again for longer than a generation if ever.

        The Tories and Labour have taken a huge risk here because they have backed the cause that if it wins will destroy both of their parties’ votecount.

        I remain wins we will be guaranteed coalitions for a long time at minimum. I am fairly sure that UKIP could not garner a majority but then a decade or so ago I would have laughed at the possibility of an SNP near clean sweep.

  • John Carins

    The “remain” camp are devoid of any positive future. They only offer fear, decline and subjugation. The fact that Cameron is sharing a platform with Barber should be sounding alarm bells. The “out” camp offers an array of futures all based on us the British people shaping our own destiny.

    • Marvin

      Talk about panic and desperation? I think we have them cowards on the run.

    • Henry Hooper

      The “remain in the “UK Union” camp are devoid of any positive future. They only offer fear, decline and subjugation. The fact that Labour shared a platform with the Tories should be sounding alarm bells. The “Independence” camp offers an array of futures all based on us the Scottish people shaping their own destiny

      • John Carins

        Ah! stealing my words. An “independent” Scotland in the EU is not independent. The forging of the British Union was mutual and is deep rooted. Only numpties in the SNP would want to destroy our future true destiny.

        • John

          I was also wondering that. Isn’t an “independent” Scotland being part of the EU a contradiction in terms – or am I missing something ??

          • John Carins

            No you are not missing anything. The Scottish people are being hoodwinked by the SNP.. Scotland on its own but within the EU without the rest of the UK would be far less “independent” than it is now. If this comes to pass at least they wont be able to blame the English for their grievances..

          • antoncheckout

            I don’t think the constitutional settlement has been invented that would dissuade them from ‘blaming the English’!

          • John Carins

            It is very sad how this hatred has gained momentum through the Nationalist cause.

          • Henry Hooper

            is that the hatred where a poster comes on and shouts ‘numpties’ innumerable times.
            I could shout ‘clown’ to you, but do I?

          • John Carins

            As an Anglo/Scot I know what I’m talking about. The SNP are numpties led by a Crankie. The SNP is a party for clowns

          • Henry Hooper

            when you lose an argument you just shout out insults ….numpties or clowns?
            I don’t get it…..what is your aversion with democracy exactly.
            I have a distaste for Tories, though I’ve voted for them locally but I’m not going to disparage and throw insult at them for their strongly held beliefs

          • John Carins

            You are English and have no right pontificating about Scottish politics.

          • Henry Hooper

            maybe not the English but definitely Westminster, being English myself I suppose I could I blame myself for lets see voting ‘Yes’ , stil being pro-indy and being English…Yes guilty your Honour

          • Henry Hooper

            read my reply above …have I got it all wrong!…tell me where

          • Andrew Cole

            The SNP’s idea of and independent Scotland is the same as Labour’s idea of the UK.

            By a policy of “anyone but the Tories” they quite simply mean independent of the Conservatives. They do not understand independence. They just want to get higher up the line for next EU commissioner than all those nasty Brits and see this as their passport to riches.

          • John Carins

            I agree. But many in the Tory party are no better – putting the EU and party ahead of country.

          • Henry Hooper

            your defo missing something, independant challenging thought perhaps, maybe even a brain

          • John

            So your idea of “independent challenging thought” is to throw childish playground insults at anyone who has the temerity to question what you’re saying. (You might also learn to spell). “independent”

          • Henry Hooper

            No my idea is that you stop believing all you read in the Daily Fail and Torygraph incessantly

        • Henry Hooper

          Great argument in support of your earlier “numptie” claims

          Is Germany not an independent country in the EU, Is Holland..do these countries not year after year elect their own governments and if they don’t perform they can vote them out…in Scotland we can’t

          As I say, I’m marginally on the Remain side.

          But if Scotland were an independent country within the EU we would have the following powers and responsibilities that we do not currently have. I do hope you “get” my point. Lots of folk are saying that Yoonie Loonies are not the sharpest knives in the drawer….please don’t prove them all right at once

          the constitution
          the existence of the (criminal) High Court of Justiciary
          the existence of the (civil) Court of Session
          registration and funding of political parties
          international relations, including:
          international development
          the regulation of international trade
          the Home Civil Service
          defence

          Financial and Economic Matters:
          fiscal, economic and monetary policy
          currency
          financial services
          financial markets
          money laundering

          Home Affairs:
          drug abuse
          data protection and access to information
          elections
          firearms
          film classification
          immigration and nationality
          scientific procedures on live animals
          national security and counter-terrorism
          betting, gaming and lotteries
          emergency powers
          extradition
          lieutenancies

          Trade and Industry:
          business associations
          insolvency
          competition
          intellectual property
          import and export control
          sea fishing outside the Scottish zone
          customer protection
          product standards, safety and liability
          weights and measures
          telecommunications
          postal services
          research councils

          Energy:
          electricity
          oil and gas
          coal
          nuclear energy
          energy efficiency

          Transport:
          road transport
          rail transport
          marine transport
          air transport

          Social Security:
          social security schemes
          child support
          pensions

          Regulation of the Professions:
          architect
          health professions
          auditor

          Employment:
          employment and industrial relations
          health and safety

          Health and Medicines:
          abortion
          xenotransplantation
          embryology, surrogacy and human genetics
          medicines, medical supplies and poisons
          welfare foods

          Media and Culture:
          broadcasting
          public lending right

          Miscellaneous:
          judicial salaries
          equal opportunities
          control of weapons of mass destruction
          Ordnance Survey
          time

          • John Carins

            You may have a marginal say on the things on your list but it will be drowned out by the requirements of 27 other states/regions. Currently with Holyrood and Westminster the Scottish “voice” is over represented. Scotland would move from a position where it has more influence to one where is has practically none.

          • Henry Hooper

            “Currently with ….Westminster the Scottish “voice” is over represented”..no it isn’t is proportional. it used to have 72 seats and that was unfair, that is why it was dropped to 59 seats.
            Having 59 seats is irrelevant though when you’re still a tiny minority.
            Example #1:
            Fisheries are very important to Scotland and its economy/ well being. The UK waters off Scotland is where the vast majority of fish in Europe comes from…Scotland representatives (fisheries experts, not Sirs andLords of this and that) was booted out of the EU delegations and fishing rights bargained away by the UK Government, Euores largest fishing port in Peterhead suffered immeasurably
            Example #2:
            Our sole Tory MP ruled over the rest of the 58 MP’s and decided to not even review, never mind consider the 90+ amendments to the Scotland Bill. Scotland is irrelevant in the UK and as it has nothing to negotiate with it is completely powerless to do anything about it. Being in the EU independently gives us significantly much more clout than we have now….having a seat at the top table , not working through intermediaries whose interests are not yours.
            I hate the same things as you probably about Europes…its stunning lack of elected reps..a complete slap in the face to democracy…BUT…the House of Lords is a much bigger establishment with much more members on the payroll and equally as corrupt.
            When you’re currently powerless and irrelevant being in the EU really is a no brainer

          • John Carins

            The EU destroyed Scottish and British fishing. Staying in the EU will continue this nightmare for Scotland. .

          • Henry Hooper

            The EU hasn’t destroyed our fishing industry..it’s our incompetent poorly equipped negotiators that allow it

          • John Carins

            It was a cost of joining. Heath negotiated the fishing industry away. If we had not have joined in the first place we would still have our fishing industry.

          • Henry Hooper

            No….there are negotiations every other year on this ..why don’t you know what the Scottish fisheries minister has been complaining about?

            Ignorance…jeez of….after spouting off ..you don’t even know about what been going FFS

          • John Carins

            The last time I looked at a map water surrounded the whole of the UK. Fisheries is a British matter. That is why we should stay together and get out of the EU. Look at the bigger picture and stop fixating on what the Scottish fisheries minister is saying.

          • Mr B J Mann

            You forgot Austria which was told to change the government it voted for to one that suited the EU.

            And Italy and Greece which were told to accept the replacement of their governments with EU bureaucrats.

            Not to mention the countries who we told to vote again until they got the answer the EU liked.

            And just two examples from your list:

            Aren’t both Health and Safety and Poisons controlled by EU regulations?!

            I wouldn’t be surprised if all of them were!!!

        • Andrew Cole

          If they want to stay in the EU they better get their Scottish passports ready to cross the border 🙂

          • John Carins

            Andrew – correction EU passports ready stamped with appropriate visas.

          • MichtyMe

            Of course independent Scots will have been born in the UK so they and their children will have UK citizenship which cannot be revoked and will have dual citizenship if they also request a Scots one.

          • John Carins

            No MichtyMe. Citizens in an independent Scotland in the EU will have to have Scottish/EU passports. English and Welsh citizens in an independent rUK outside of the EU will have British passports. It is as simple as that.

          • MichtyMe

            The UK permits dual citizenship. You can have a UK passport and another for any other country in the world. Why would Scots be the exception. Besides it would be legally and practically impossible to remove citizenship from UK citizens. The government cannot even revoke citizenship of lunatic jihadis.

          • John Carins

            Why would rUK continue to permit this for an “independent” Scotland? You need to think through the consequences and just reflect on the benefits that the UK Union provides.

  • Marvin

    This lying and deceitful narcissistic and spineless fool has sold this country down the sewer. He didn’t have the guts to fight for his own promises in his bogus and phoney manifesto, and had absolutely no intention of walking away from his own bogus and phoney cowardly intentions. He has also take the Tory Party from possibly being in power for a very long time against a non existent and ultra leftist gang of fools, to the possibility of being thrashed by them all because of his obsession with his cowardly lies and deceit.

  • John

    and immediately on leaving…?
    ….and yea shall there be a plague of locusts upon thy house and shall the Angel of Death smite the first born in every dwelling , and verily shall there be wailing and gnashing of teeth among ye hypocrites and blasphemers who turn their face from the true faith…..
    And not only that ; 5 minutes after Brexit the world will be consumed by a flood that will make Noah’s episode look like a paddling pool.
    There will also be a nuclear winter that will last at least 3 years , there will be no food in the shops and finally , I will find it impossible to get spares for my Nissan.
    So There – better take that nice Mr Cameron’s advice then.

  • antoncheckout

    If Project Fear works, the aftermath of the referendum will be…interesting. There will be an almighty hangover.
    Firstly, in Europe itself. If we vote to remain, any political influence that we have in the EU will have dwindled to zero. The stonewalling contempt shown at the European Council during the UK renegotiations already showed.us plainly that we are not wanted in the EU. The CBI, USA, OECD, IMF (and for all I know the RAC as well) may demand our membership – but the politicians of the other EU countries do not. Their national powerbases are more easily won by opposing us. And we are often an inconvenient reminder of their past.

    When we are sidelined as the eurozone forms a debt-transfer tax union from which we are (willingly) excluded but (unwillingly) grossly disadvantaged in our economic growth, even then the lotus-eaters won’t notice. They’ll be too busy reading their holiday brochures and dreaming of cheap builders for their house extension.

    This vote will be a judgment on our capacity for governing ourselves. Such hard work, isn’t it…

    • Mary Ann

      We are wanted in the EU but we were asking the club to change the rules under which the other members joined. Why should all the rest change just to suit us. If we want to change the rules we should be convincing the majority of other countries that they would benefit by doing the same.

      • CockneyblokefromReading

        No, you are deluded. Our MONEY is wanted in the EU, not us. The EU is Leftist, and talking sense to them to change in order that the EU will survive, goes unheard, because Leftists have an agenda that closes up hearing. The Greens are the same. You can talk to you are blue in the face that they are shooting themselves in the foot. Years ago, I predicted (on a Green forum) that the longer they demonised fossil fuels, the far more likely it would be that the government would resort to nuclear. I well remember this (it was on the old BBC forums). I was told I was stupid, as the government’s experiment with nuclear was over. I was trying to help. It’s the same with the EU. The EU will collapse within the next ten years because they continually fail to see that they are burying themselves – over immigration and spending. THAT, Mary, is why you won’t convince the “majority”. Many countries in the EU are doing nicely, thank you, by taking more from the pot than they contribute. Do you really believe, in your wildest dreams, Mary, that they will want the EU to ‘change’? Of course not! I have seen many of your comments being off the mark, but your above one shows you cannot grasp the very basics of the problem.

      • Freddythreepwood

        No; as with any club, if you cannot accept the rules and the members won’t change them, you leave and join another club. One with cheaper subscriptions and better bar prices.

      • Andrew Cole

        The Germans change the rules when it suits them. Quite often the ones that they wanted implemented in the first place.

        Like the automatic sanction that they insisted was put in place in 1995 for any country that had a deficit over 3% of GDP. 9 year later they didn’t want that rule when they were the first to break the 3%. They didn’t get sanctioned though. Wonder why?

        All your harping on about why should all the rest change just to suit us? Because we should have pretty much equal billing to Germany and therefore if they can decide the rules then we should be able to as well, and not just continually hear “No them’s the rules”.

        No “Them” is not the rules, they are Germany’s rules. Decided by Germany, for Germany and changed when Germany needs them to be changed.

      • Trailblazer10

        It isn’t a club. It is a totalitarian political construct. Very similar to the USSR.

  • CockneyblokefromReading

    As an Outer, I have still yet to see anyone on the In campaign give one, solitary reason for staying in! ALL they have is the fear of leaving, and what might happen. Apparently, leaving the EU is going to cause volcanoes, earthquakes, and pestilence. The In campaign is a joke, and as an Outer, I’m really glad that it is – it’s making the case for Brexit much easier! All they have is fear – it’s graphic that they don’t actually have any positive reasons for staying in.

    • Henry Hooper

      I’m a Remain but you’re 100% correct…but please remember that our right wing press supports the Leave Camp, so if you don’t for example read the Guardian then you’ll never know the other side of the coin…but if you want to play dumb and keep your fingers in your ears that’s completely your choice.
      I hope you don’t make a massive mistake but I sense you will but you’ll never know,,,you swallow al that you read and challenge nothing…am I right?

      • CockneyblokefromReading

        No, you’re not right. Why would you be after all? I read a lot, digest it, and come to an opinion…about everything. There will be some downsides to Leaving (especially economically). but the fact is, when you weigh up everything (and that’s not what people do – maybe you too), on balance we will be ‘better off’. We’ll be able to take back control of our borders and our legal system.

        • Henry Hooper

          if you could truthfully tell me you read some leftwing press to day as I read right wing press, then sure

          • CockneyblokefromReading

            I haven’t read any leftist press today. When did you stop beating your wife?

          • Mary Ann

            No of course not.

        • Mary Ann

          We will be better off in the EU.

          • LittleRedRidingHood

            Why is that then?

        • Trailblazer10

          “We’ll be able to take back control of our borders and our legal system”.
          You will also be able to elect and get rid of a representaive government

      • Andrew Cole

        Who gets more exposure? The “right wing paper” you are always on about with how much readership exactly? A few million?

        or Auntie on her own, The left wing organisation, so heavily behind remain it is laughable that is beamed into everybody’s houses 24/7?

        This “right wing press” garbage is laughable to the extreme. Yes people are on the webpages as well but there is no competition with the BBC and John Snow infiltration of our homes.

        Unless you are counting when the Beeb go through the headlines, from a left wing perspective, to rubbish any right wing articles and make sure they can put their lefty pundit’s expertise and considerable experience in the left wing view of such things as actual exposure for the “right wing press”.

        • Henry Hooper

          The Beeb support the establishment of whatever hue

          • Andrew Cole

            You think? They are a lefty organisation full of lefty thinkers that always think that the lefty view is the only sensible view and that their view IS the neutral view. They are biased towards the left by their own blinkered lefty view of the world which means they think they are the central neutral ground.

          • Henry Hooper

            They’re supporting Cameron right now

          • Andrew Cole

            They aren’t. They are supporting staying in the EU. Something all (bar a few) of the left are behind.

            Cameron is supporting the left if you had not noticed Blair MkII

          • Henry Hooper

            New labour aren’t left that’s why the labour party are in turmoil,mother members and leader are left but that’s it

          • Trailblazer10

            Cameron is pro mass immigration, ensuring you will be a minority in your homeland, so it won’t be your homeland. He is also maniacally pro EU. He is a Cultural Marxist.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Ah, magical Marxists in your mind.

            As you whine about the Other and fail to count.

          • Mary Ann

            The BBC isn’t left.

          • CockneyblokefromReading

            Jeez!

          • LittleRedRidingHood

            Are you sure?

          • Jingleballix

            100% W.R.O.N.G.

          • Trailblazer10

            They are incapable of understanding their bias. Truly indoctrinated.

        • Leon Wolfeson

          Shame the studies showed the BBC licks the government’s toes, eh?

      • Mary Ann

        Why do the right wing press support leave, what do they hope to gain. Farage and now Arron Banks have both said that Britain could be worse off outside the EU, they both think it is worth it but they are both rich. If it all goes pear shaped, they will have a much softer landing than the rest of us. Farage can always go and live in Germany with his German wife.

        • LittleRedRidingHood

          Short term Mary Ann there will of course be some upheaval. But medium to long term we will be much better off. That’s the problem with the government and the lefty snowflakes. They can’t look further than the end of their anti Semitic noses

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Yea, your personalities will make bank, as you blame the left for your views. The short-term damage…you don’t care, and you’re happy for Britain to be shafted for your personal gains I agree.

          • LittleRedRidingHood

            Another pointless comment from Leon. I want to see Britain independent from a corrupt, totalitarian, unelected eu regime. That is what I will gain.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Oh, so you blame democracy, demanding dictatorship and that you get get paid for the far higher levels of corruption and control, all imposed on your British enemies, right.

            As you say talking about your foreign influence is pointless, check.
            I’ll keep defending Parliamentary Sovereignty from people like you by voting sensibly.

          • LittleRedRidingHood

            Do you proof read anything you type? Do you ever conclude you’ve written rubbish?
            Vote to stay you give away your sovereignty.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Yes. No, I don’t write your posts.

            The situation is that at present, sovereignty resides with Parliament.
            You want hence to take it from Parliament.

            It’s your isolationist agenda…

          • LittleRedRidingHood

            Well if you are denying that the EU erodes sovereignty then you only confirm your troll credentials or that you are several sandwiches short of a picnic.
            Keep going troll boy.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Your knowledge of the UK’s constitutional setup is sad, as you demand I post your posts.

          • LittleRedRidingHood

            You’ve obviously not been paying attention for the last 40 years.
            The UK has an establishment pimped by the eu.
            Are you even eligble to vote in the uk?

          • Leon Wolfeson

            I have, unlike you.
            Your knowledge of the UK is very low, right.
            Yes, unlike you.

          • LittleRedRidingHood

            Do you understand what the eu is, the purpose it serves.
            Have you heard of the term ever closer union. Ring any bells?

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Yes, unlike you.
            Yes, unlike you.
            I am aware of the actualities of Britain’s position outside the EZ, unlike you.

          • LittleRedRidingHood

            Really? please enlighten us Leon. I’m all ears.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            I don’t, per long standing policy, give multiple personalities information.
            Always makes things worse.

          • LittleRedRidingHood

            Translates as a troll talking follow again.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            You wrote in English, no need to translate. I mean, “a troll talking follow” makes no sense but again you’re just wittering on.

            You have my sympathy for your mental health issues, of course.

          • LittleRedRidingHood

            Sorry I meant tw@t

          • Leon Wolfeson

            So you are.

      • Trailblazer10

        I don’t read the Guardian. I know one or two who look af it rarely, for a laugh. It is a bit cruel to mock the afflicted.They will go out of busines when their “tax efficient” offshore fund is exhausted.

        Where is the “right wing” press?

    • Marvin

      If we lose and the remain win, then we might as well inject ourselves with the Ebola Virus. There will be NO cure or antidote for the slide into oblivion.

      • Mary Ann

        Keep taking the tablets.

        • Marvin

          You will be looking for the Cyanide tablets to escape from the “Blade” or being eaten by cannibals and end up in your neighbours barbecue.

      • Trailblazer10

        It is the last chance to escape from globalism.

        • Marvin

          It is the only chance to escape Lunacy and Armageddon!

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Yea, those things like Trade and Holidays, why…

          • Marvin

            I just knew that there was a limited reason for your lust to be enslaved by a group of donkeys in Europe.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Except I don’t share your fetishes.

          • Marvin

            You have plenty of your own in that rancid filled brain of yours. Get your orange suit ready, and don’t worry, their knives are sharp.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            So wild accusations, bigotry, explicit threats from you and your thugs and their knives…

        • Leon Wolfeson

          How do you think you’ll stop trade entirely?

      • Leon Wolfeson

        Your personalities are just odd.

    • Mary Ann

      The young, with all their lives before them want to stay, the olds with only a short amount of life want to leave. Voting leave is selfish.

      Freedom of movement is great, the right to live and work in any part of Europe you want to, if you have the get up and go and enough courage to do it. The stick in the muds can stay at home, they don’t have to go.

      The right for ordinary working class pensioners to retire to their place in the sun, private health insurance is too expensive for most pensioners, Spain and France will once again become the playgrounds of the rich if we leave the EU.

      • LittleRedRidingHood

        And that’s it to you. All the eu is to you is freedom of movement. There is far more than you seem willing to accept is also part of the bargain.
        The only people getting richer are the faceless bureaucrats in Brussels on the gravy train and you have the audacity to say that those wanting to leave are selfish.
        I take it your not exactly on your uppers over there in France eh Mary Ann?

        • Leon Wolfeson

          So you claim not to exist, as you won’t look at faces of people like Farrage… as you talk from your Caribbean island…

          • LittleRedRidingHood

            WTF was that Leon? I’ve never been to the Caribbean. Just toddle off rather than exposing us to your inane shyte.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            So you claim not to be where you are, as you demand censorship, that your personalities not be exposed to the views of anyone with what, less than million in petty cash eh?

          • LittleRedRidingHood

            Random shyte as usual Leon.

      • Marvin

        Hope you enjoy scuttling around in a black bin liner, because that will be your fate, no ifs and no buts.

    • Trailblazer10

      Plagues of frogs and locusts. Most importantly, you would be a that most awful of creatures – a xenophobe.

      • CockneyblokefromReading

        No, you don’t know me, so you thought you’d throw a description out there and see if it sticks. I’m a bigot, not a xenophobe. But, given your contribution, you probably don’t know the difference. And if you think a xenophobe is the most awful of creatures, then you must have had no experience of life at all.

    • Leon Wolfeson

      So you refuse to read…as you spin fear of the EU. Right.

      As you make a case based on preaching there’s no arguments for your own side, frankly.

  • Foxall

    Cameron: the Prime Minister who went into EU negotiations telling them he wanted to stay in, and came away with nothing The Prime Minister who stood on the same platform as POTUS, smirking while POTUS threatened us. Who is telling us, via Project Fear, that we are not capable of standing alone; that the government of the day isn’t up to the job of governing.
    Despite all this, there are still those who support him. In heaven’s name why?

    • Mary Ann

      Because it is common sense that we are better off in the EU even Farage has said we could be worse off if we leave, but he thinks it’s worth it, Arron Banks has said the same thing, two leading lights in the brexit campaign have agreed with Cameron, but they have one advantage over the rest of us, they are both rich, they have a lot more dough to soften their falls if they are right and Britain is worse off. Farage has a German wife to boot so he can always go and live in the EU if he wants to, just like Nigel Lawson who lives in France and has no intention of coming back to Britain if we lose the referendum.

      • LittleRedRidingHood

        Provide the logic for your statement. Why would we be better off in. Even the chancellors figure suggest growth but just at a slower rate. We’ll all still have more than we have now, without the shackles of the eu.

  • Shieldsman

    Conservative MP David Davis,“Attempts to avoid
    the Freedom of Information Act in what is supposed to be a legitimate activity will lead to scandal and embarrassment. This will only
    reinforce the public’s view that the Remain campaign is prepared to cheat to
    win this referendum.”

    Never a truer word spoken. Cameron has lied ever since he came back from Brussels. He started with the big con – I have reformed the EU and his other fairy story (myth) for children and Cabinet colleagues we are in the best of both worlds.

    A better description is that he is boxed in the corner (his little world) and the other Council members ignore him, they have a different agenda.

    For anyone interested, the future of the EU is foretold in the 5 Presidents and Spinelli reports, but then the likes of June Sarpong have not got to that reading level. I have doubts about the Secretary of State for Education who is spreading the rumour that we will need a Visa to travel to Europe if we leave the EU.

    Foreign Office, S.W.1, 24th December, 1946.
    I HAVE the honour to inform your Excellency that, in order to carry into effect the
    understanding regarding the mutual abolition of visas which was reached between M.Bidault
    and myself on 11th October last, His Majesty’s Government in the United Kingdom are
    prepared, as a first step towards the eventual restoration of the freedom of travel which
    existed between British and French territories before the war, to conclude with the
    Government of the French Republic an agreement in the following terms:

    In the meantime there is 2014/2249(INI) 20.1.2016 DRAFT REPORT on improving the functioning of the European Union building on the potential of the Lisbon Treaty.

    In there is a proposal for a combined Military Headquarters with units of the member States at its disposal.

    The prognosis for the health of the EU is not good, read the report: -http://www.euractiv.com/sectio…

  • antoncheckout

    Now here’s an interesting bit of today’s news: Cameron spent months trying (and failing) to get EU agreement to cutting EU immigrant benefits. Yet the Germans are just going to do it by tweaking German law to reinterpret the freedom of movement regs:
    http://www.faz.net/aktuell/wirtschaft/wirtschaftspolitik/sozialleistungen-wenig-raum-fuer-nahles-gesetz-gegen-eu-auslaender-14204859.html

    “Freedom of movement also means: Nobody is compelled to come to seek work in Germany in particular, and to claim state [unemployment] support: that and the financial pressure on local authorities argues against the making of payments.”

    That simple, eh. Imagine the mincemeat our lovely judges would make of that if the government tried it here, saying ‘Nobody is compelled to come from elsewhere in the EU to the UK to seek work.’

    • mailbiter

      Do you know what that story is actually about? Sounds like to have hold of the wrong end of the stick.

      • antoncheckout

        The German Employment Minister has declared her intention of altering the interpretation of German law so that “EU-Ausländer” – EU citizens of non-German countries who have moved to Germany and have no employment – will be refused or restricted in applying for unemployment benefit.
        The reason is that the local councils who suffer from benefit tourism – and who are forced to provide the benefits – can no longer financially manage to do so.

        This announcement has caused an immense stir in Germany – headlines such as ‘Is she allowed to do that?’ in this week’s issue of Die Zeit.
        http://www.zeit.de/politik/deutschland/2016-04/eu-auslaender-andrea-nahles-hartz-iv-sozialhilfe

        As that article confirms, the Minister plans to introduce a regulation that will restrict the rights to benefits of any EU immigrant to Germany. Anyone who has worked for one year will have the right to (only) six months UB – and then nothing at all. Only after five years continuous residence in Germany will EU citizens from elsewhere (EU-foreigners’ as they are now – rather significantly – termed in Germany) have the right to stay in the country and access to benefits. So EU citizens who up to now needed only wait six months for benefits will now have to wait five years. Which of course they won’t. They’ll receive a ‘loan’ to help them return to their homeland – and that’s it.

        Interesting that Careless Cameron spent months haggling over T&C with unwilling Eastern European politicians, and the Germans are simply altering their own law to make even more sweeping changes to benefits and the ‘freedom of movement’.

        • mailbiter

          Precisely – plans to. So it looks as if Cameron’s initiative may well bring about a sea change. Then we can all do it.

          • antoncheckout

            No. It is not a vague futuristic aspiration, not has it anything to do with any sea-change in the EU, certainly not with Cameron’s petty non-achievement. The German Government has announced its firm decision to pass with all speed a new law in the Bundestag, where it has a crushing majority. The law will prevent unemployed migrants from moving to Germany and claiming benefits, or, after they arrive, from making themselves unemployed and claiming benefits.
            Cameron’s wimpishly tiny concession is irrelevant, as it needs to go through the EU Parliament, and will make little or no difference until 2020.
            The Germans will not bother asking the EU at all. They will simply unilaterally suspend the right to benefits of any EU migrant to Germany, until five years have elapsed since the immigrant entered the country. (And quite right too.)
            So Cameron and the UK government spent nearly a year fighting – vainly – in the European Council, over a restriction on unemployed migrant benefits that the Germans are introducing as a complete ban with no exception, via German domestic law. And doing it NOW without consulting any other nation or the EU at all: neither the EC, nor the Council, nor the EU Parliament.

            And that is what confident, sovereign, national power looks like. You ignore the EU and just pass a law, and make sure you are powerful enough to tell the EU to Foxtrot Oscar (or Friedrich Otto) if they object. Cameron could have done the same at any time, but he doesn’t have the guts to stand up to the EU and the judges. German politicians have no such timidity.

            Mind you, one has to laugh at Merkel’s constant nagging at Cameron a year ago over ‘freedom of movement’, a prase she repeated solemnly and often. And now she’s just going to drive a coach and horses through it. Because she can. And Cameron can’t.

          • mailbiter

            It is an aspiration until it becomes a reality – definitively.
            And if it does become a reality, then anyone can do it.
            Surely you think that is good news.

          • antoncheckout

            You don’t know how German politics works if you call it an ‘aspiration’. It is a German government policy that will be easily enacted via the government’s overwhelming majority in the Bundestag. There will be resistance from the EU, and they will try to stop follow-on enactments in the parliaments of the Netherlands, Sweden, France, Austria and the UK.

            It is the end of the unrestricted EU Freedom of Movement principle, And the end of EU central control of domestic lawmaking, and the end of Open Borders – a childish fantasy that the EU could never support with adequate security measures at the peripheries.

            The idiot EU may be forced to wake from its drunken stupor – but it’s still an alcoholic idiot.

          • mailbiter

            And I should have thought you would welcome that. Surely, you should be rejoicing. It means that the EU can reform, after all.

          • antoncheckout

            No, it shows nothing of the kind. It’s Germany telling the EU to eff off out of its domestic decision to restrict benefits to EU immigrants (or ‘EU-foreigners’ as they are now termed in Germany).
            Cameron achieved nothing in his EU negotiations: the Germans simply change their laws and the EU simply tuns a blind eye.
            That’s not reform, it’s EU impotence and hypocrisy: and the Germans have shown behaved as nations should – boldly and without regard to the opinion of needy foreigners.

          • mailbiter

            If the precedent is set, then other countries – including the UK – can do.

            Brexiters have been calling for this for some time. So you should be happy about it.

          • antoncheckout

            1) The Germans are not setting a precedent, they are enacting a unilateral national domestic law.
            2) The EU is pretending not to notice.
            3) They deliberately stymied any such agreement for the UK when Cameron tried to negotiate it, but will let Germany get away with it without any negotiation.
            It means the EU is finished as a political union and will now dissolve politically quite quickly. And when we leave in June, the Germans can carry on paying for everyone else – which of course they will refuse to do, and so the eurozone will also collapse.
            That is definitely something to be happy about.

          • mailbiter

            Of course it is domestic law. All primary legislation, in every country, is domestic law.

            But if one country can do this, then so can others. Hence, precedence.

            So bearing in mind that this is exactly the sort of thing that Brexiters have been calling for, then hope that Germany actually does it. Then the UK can do the same, if it wants to, without any repercussions. Rejoice.

          • antoncheckout

            It is a domestic law that is entirely contrary to the ‘principle’ that Germany insisted Britain must follow.
            Most British voters if they find out about this will not be rejoicing but voting more firmly to leave. It demonstrates the sly hypocrisy and double-dealing of a corrupt European political class that thinks only of itself.

            And we want out of it. To leave the EU, that will be a true cause of rejoicing.

            And that’s my last word. You see it from your foreign perspective, naturally, and we from ours.

          • mailbiter

            Okay, then. One last thing (in case that is not your last word)…

            Would you rather Germany was NOT doing this?

          • mailbiter

            Of course it is a precedent. I don’t know why you cannot see this positively. It is a good thing. You have been calling for these kind of controls for ages. Now it is starting – rejoice.

          • antoncheckout

            There is nothing to rejoice at – it will not be replicated within the EU because it breaches the EU’s freedom of movement laws, and the EU is too dominated by Germany to be able to stop it.
            Germany is doing this without consulting or informing any other country or the EU. Juncker is too scared even to respond.
            It illustrates the deception and double-dealing of the EU, and the unreliability of Britain’s ‘partners’ in the EU. The Germans well know that they stubbornly opposed Britain’s attempt to negotiate a restriction in EU immigrant benefits at the European Council, and Merkel insisted that the freedom of movement principles did not allow Britain any such legislation, but now we see that the German government had itself decided on even more draconian German legislation – stripping all EU citizens of benefits for five years after entering Germany – to protect German interests.

            If you consider that a matter to rejoice at, that suggests a degree of detachment from Britain’s interests that could only be located in Brussels.

          • mailbiter

            Seems you are getting emotional. 😉

          • Mary Ann

            Well if they do then Cameron can do the same, can’t he.

          • antoncheckout

            Nope.

        • Mary Ann

          Sarkozy tried something similar with health care for migrants but France had to change it back.

    • Mary Ann

      Well there’s a lead for Cameron if migrants claiming benefits becomes a real problem rather than a perceived problem as migrants actually put more into the system than they take out.

      • Mr B J Mann

        NO T H E Y D O N ‘ T ! ! !

        They put in (just) more than they CLAIM in BENEFITS ! ! !

        So they aren’t paying their fair share of EVERY THING ELSE ! ! !

        Even like the pensions we supposedly need to import them to pay.

        Never mind schools n ospitals.

        Police and armed forces.

        Water, rail and other infrastructure.

        Etc, etc, etc…….

        • Mary Ann
          • Mr B J Mann

            Usual BS!

            Firstly, UCL is one of those trendy-lefty PC places, and not to be trusted!

            It banned that professor for cracking a joke against himself at a conference that the feminarsties didn’t like, and the students union there banned the Nietzsche Club after it put up a poster saying equality is a false god?!

            Secondly, usual straw man about how much the UK born population take in “benefits”: a lot of those “UK born” are second generation immigrants on benefits like their parents, and by “benefits” that the rest are getting, not claiming, they are including PAID FOR child benefit and PENSIONS ! ! !

            Thirdly, I take it you now withdraw any claim you have made in the past about asylum seekers and refugees paying in more than they take out as:

            “the study showed those arriving from outside Europe over a 17-year period took more from the public purse than they put back in………. immigrants from outside the European Economic Area (EEA) made a negative contribution of £118bn.”

            Yes, that’s BILLION!

            And, fourthly, as the article went on to explain:

            Immigration Minister James Brokenshire told Sky News the focus of the report was too narrow and not up-to-date.

            He said: “it ends in 2011 whereas we have seen the pressure from EU migration…… over the course of the last 18 months it has more than doubled during that period.”

            “It also does not take into account pressure on schools, roads, housing services, those things that really matter to people in
            their communities.”

            So the report ONLY accounts for benefits payments and related welfare services, not everything else that immigrants take, never mind benefit from, such as the emergency and armed services, and everything else everyone else’s taxes pay for, never mind the harm to the economy they do.

            As you would have realised if you had bothered to read the article (or were you hoping I wouldn’t?!):

            UKIP Migration spokesman MEP Steven Woolfe, said: “What this study doesn’t do is to show what wealth our own people could have generated if they weren’t subjected to wage-reducing, employment-displacing mass immigration from the EU. Nor does it truly take into account the opportunity costs to the UK of substituting large sections of Britain’s workforce with migrant labour.”

            Responding to the report, chairman of the MigrationWatch UK
            think tank Sir Andrew Green said: “This report confirms that immigration as a whole has cost up to £150bn in the last 17 years.

            “As for recent European migrants, even on their own figures –
            which we dispute – their contribution to the exchequer amounts to less than £1 a week per head of our population.”

          • Mr B J Mann

            By the way, isn’t that report by the same people that said we’d only get 13,000 Eastern European immigrants?

            As you would put it, only 5,987,000 out!

          • Mr B J Mann

            Oh, and also, that report is from UCL’s CReAM Centre.

            Which is funded by the European Research Council (ERC).

            Which is funded by the Horizon 2020 programme.

            Which is, surprise, surprise, funded by, wait for it, yes, you guessed it:

            The EU!

            Whodathunkit?!?!?!

        • Trailblazer10

          That is also false. It is based on previous (EU only not 3rd world ) migrants, who were almost entirely European.

          • Yes, a trick the politicians like to ply when trying to diffuse the immigration row.

      • Trailblazer10

        False.

    • Mary Ann

      So one less reason for leaving the EU, if Germany can do it, so can we.

  • Teacher

    i have only read a few pieces from this week’s ‘Speccie’ edition but from them I gather that I am negative, stupid and mad. Now I know this is there anyone out there in the media who could tell me how and what to think? I would consider it a favour.

  • Rich Austin

    There is no solid reason to stay in the EU just as there never was a solid reason to join. Anything sold on the basis of lies, and perpetuated on the basis of lies, is not worth consideration. The Scots were fools; they allowed themselves, despite the blindingly bleeding obvious, to believe the lies. Look where it got them and look where it got the UK as a whole. Do not make the same mistake again; there is only one option and you know what the sign above the door reads.

    • Mary Ann

      I bet Salmond is secretly grateful that he lost after the bottom dropped out of the oil market.

      • Jambo25

        I doubt it. The clue is in the name of the party he joined, was a member of and led for decades.

        • Tamerlane

          It ain’t.

    • Leon Wolfeson

      Yea, no solid need for trade, etc.

      As you note the lack of argument for your Project Fear, I agree.
      And as you decry self-determination… and indeed democracy…

  • Shieldsman

    Cameron is an odd man, acts like a Social Democrat in charge of the Conservative Party. He has every one confused including the DT editorial.

    Mr Cameron’s willingness to misuse Government resources and transduce his own colleagues in pursuit of a referendum victory is increasingly apparent, but this is worse still (pandering to Unions). He risks looking like a man so hell-bent on referendum victory he is forgetting the party he leads and what it stands for.

    With Major twittering on will it be Cameron that destroys the Conservative Party?

    When Boris Johnson said Cameron got “two thirds of diddly squat” in his pre-referendum negotiations with Brussels, he was being over generous. What was it the PM said those three years ago – the EU is not working and we will change it.

    In a statement to the European Parliament on 19th April European Commission President Jean-Claude Juncker admitted that citizens had lost faith in the EU, during a speech in Strasbourg.

    “One of the reasons why EU citizens are stepping away from the European project is due to the fact that we are interfering in too many domains of their private lives and in too many domains where member states are better placed to take action. We were wrong to overregulate and interfere too much in the lives of our citizens,” he added.

    The former Luxembourg premier said, “Today we are facing very tough times. We have the global refugee crisis, we have attacks on our free societies, all of our institutions are under immense pressure today and sometimes are really pushed to their limits.”

    Record 60% of Europeans ‘tend not to trust’ EU. The number of Europeans who distrust the European Union has doubled over the past six years to a record high, with bailed-out Greeks and Cypriots having the least faith in the bloc, according to a new Eurobarometer poll.
    EurActiv.com

    This confirms that the EU is still not working, but David Cameron wants us to STAY IN. How stupid.

    • gugwully

      It doesn’t matter if he destroys the Conservative party as long as he keeps us in the EU.
      It doesn’t matter if the Labour party is destroyed as long as they keep us in the EU.

      The sole purpose of the establishment is to keep us in until we are unable to leave.

  • gugwully

    This referendum will not settle the EU issue.
    Whatever the result we will be staying in the EU, the proEU parliament would never allow us to actually leave.

    This issue will be settled at the 2020 general election.

    If Cameron wins then all those Troy voters that are anti-EU (some 70%) will have a choice, vote Tory again and watch the UK die or move to UKIP. They won’t be able to pretend tht the Tories are secretly anti-EU just waiting for the right time to take us out.

    If Cameron loses then a stitch up will occur and we will not leave the EU. In which case all those Tory voter face the same choice, accept the stitch up or move to UKIP.

    • Sonduh

      Then again it would only take seven Tory MPs to cross over to cause an election.
      After the referendum I see a new united Eurosceptic party being formed.

      • newminster

        You might like actually to read the Act that gave us fixed parliaments before writing rubbish.

        • antoncheckout

          An early election is certainly possible under the FTPA.
          A split Tory party would hand Cameron a vulnerable minority government. A majority-passed motion of No Confidence in the Government, if not rescinded by the HoC in a further vote within 14 days, means that a general election must be held 17 days later.

          A motion calling for an election backed by 434 of the 650 MPs would also dissolve the House.

      • Mary Ann

        So if remain wins you want to ignore the democratic choice of the people and bring down the government. And I thought the brexit campaign was supposed to be about democracy. It isn’t is it, it’s about fear and getting rid of the foreigners

        • Mr B J Mann

          Four million votes for one MP!

          And that d2spite illegal campaignin/ by the Tories!!

          And the other partie plus the Beeb ganging up on UKIP!!!

          • Trailblazer10

            Time is running out. Each generation more indoctrinated than the last. Immmigrants and their children growing fast. 2020 may be too late, you may be outnumbered.

    • Mary Ann

      There is one weakness to your argument, Britain will not die if it stays in the EU, it will be better off as the EU along with the rest of modern world recovers from the recession that started in the US. Don’t rely on Britain not leaving the EU if ‘remain’ loses we will all be losers.

      • Trailblazer10

        You have drunk the Kool Aid.

  • Bill Brinsmead

    Is Speccie preparing to lose? Getting excuses in now?

  • MrBishi

    If one side of a “political” campaign is offering something extremely damaging – such as the Brexiteers – then “fear” is a most appropriate weapon.
    If you don’t like the heat, stay out of the kitchen.
    BTW, what is using the threat of 70 million Turkish immigrants, if it’s not fear?

    • Mary Ann

      And of course the 27 million who are after YOUR job, what happened to them.

      • antoncheckout

        They got the job.

        • Mary Ann

          You mean you were sacked and 27 million people took your job?

          • Father Todd Unctious

            He means one of them did but the rest were in a conspiracy to destroy him. It is a form of paranoia that informs the fear.

      • MrBishi

        The immigration issue is one big scam.
        The fact is that UK immigration – from the EU – is less than UK emigration.
        The surplus immigration comes from non-EU countries which the government – if it chose to do so – could stop completely tomorrow and turn the UK into a net emigration country.
        After Brexit, it will be the same government as now, so what on earth makes you think that they will not simply increase non-EU country migration to make up the shortfall from the EU?
        Furthermore, the UK is far from being the EU migrants country of choice. To listen to Ukip lies, one would assume that they are lining up to gain access to the UK, whereas the only ones lining up in Calais are NOT from the EU, they are refugees who will still come whether we are in or out of the EU.
        It is a fact that very refugee migration will increase by 50,000 when the UK border is returned to Dover from Calais.

        • Dacorum

          “It is a fact that very refugee migration will increase by 50,000 when the UK border is returned to Dover from Calais”
          No, that isn’t a fact – that is your assertion for which there is no basis of truth. Your whole argument is a scam and designed to spread unjustified fear about immigration if we leave the EU in order to hide the truth that immigration will remain totally uncontrolled if we remain in the EU with the current government in place.

          • MrBishi

            Refugee migration BEFORE the border moved to Calais was around 80,000.
            After the border move it reduced to 30,000.
            It’s not rocket science, you do the maths for a return of the border to the UK.

          • Dacorum

            Where are the links to back up your assertion?
            What you appear to be claiming is that 80,000 refuges were flowing through the port of Dover/ Channel tunnel before the current arrangements were put in place and that 30,000 are still getting through by that route!
            The border agreement with France is not part of our EU membership. If France wanted to tear it up, I’m sure we would simply close the Channel Tunnel until such time as France reinstated the border agreement.

          • MrBishi

            There are plenty of references:
            http://www.theguardian.com/politics/reality-check/2016/feb/08/jungle-will-there-be-kent-migrant-camps-if-britain-leaves-eu
            No one has suggested that the Calais arrangement is part of an EU agreement, but if you think it will continue if we leave, you are deluded.
            Your comment about closing the tunnel rather confirms that you are actually a halfwit.

    • antoncheckout

      It’s not a threat, it’s inevitable when Turkey accedes.
      And we’d have no referendum on that decision.

      • MrBishi

        We have a veto if we remain in the EU, and no say whatsoever if we leave.

        • The veto is the same as ‘no say whatsoever’ if the EU has already decided Turkey will join.

          • MrBishi

            You are wrong, we have a veto – as does every other EU member – over the admittance of any new member.

    • grumpyoldrockape

      Brexit = the UK resumes to a status of an independent democratic country
      where we make our own decisions free from foreign interference.
      Remain = the erosion of democracy & foreigners dictating what we can or cannot do.

      • MrBishi

        I confess to finding it impossible to debate with halfwits.
        The person you are exporting to decides on the quality of what he buys.

        • Meaning? ‘Leave’ wins and all of a sudden the export market dries up? Really?

          • MrBishi

            No, and that is not what I said, but if we leave there will be tariffs AND conditions, which we will either comply with or have our exports stopped.
            It is childish to think that we can cancel all our current regulations and people will be queuing up to take our exports.

          • LittleRedRidingHood

            And we will also add tariffs to imports. It works both ways.

          • MrBishi

            Prof Patrick Minford – one of Brexit’s 8 economists – says that we should not charge tariffs on imports to make stuff cheaper in the UK.
            He admits that this will destroy UK manufacturing in the short term but in the long term we will do better.
            He’s as barking as the rest of you. If we leave the EU we will not have access for our service sector so we will end up with no manufacturing and no service sector.
            I suggest you spend your time watch Romanian beggars because if we leave that will be the UK occupation of choice.

          • LittleRedRidingHood

            Defeatist tosh. I’m glad I wasn’t brought up that way.
            It will take years to leave the eu. When article 50 is invoked it will take 2 years minimum but probably much longer. There is a level of dishonesty amongst the remainers who know full well that that is the case, yet continue to peddle instant doom and gloom of we vote leave. Nothing will markedly chnage for many many months, except a great many people walking around with a smile on their face

          • MrBishi

            It is curious how Brexiteers get so excited when you speak the truth.
            Prof Patrick Minford said every word that I reported.
            Article 50 allows 2 years maximum when it can only be extended by a unanimous vote of the council of Europe.

          • LittleRedRidingHood

            And you know as well as I do it will be extended.
            Minford did say every word of what you said. I heard it myself. Its his opinion and one possible scenario among many.
            Just as the project fear report from the treasury.

          • MrBishi

            Halfwit.

          • LittleRedRidingHood

            And that is all the remain campaign is reduced to.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            …In your fantasies.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            No, the treasury is not writing your words, as you claim you can mind-control people into believing your silly claims. There’s a lot of scenarios, most far more likely than your daydream!

          • LittleRedRidingHood

            Better off out Leon.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Yes, of course you will be.
            Shame about the British.

          • LittleRedRidingHood

            Land of hope and glory Leon. WE will be fine. Not quite sure where that leaves you.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Yes, you and your bankers will be fine, there in your Caribbean “Land of hope and glory”, as you’ve named your private island. Or are you saying your personalities will be fine, and screw even your own circle?

            Not sure where it’ll leave British people like me? Yea, and you don’t care, right.

          • LittleRedRidingHood

            Banker? What are you talking a out.
            More to the point British…. You??

          • Leon Wolfeson

            So I’m not allowed to talk about it.
            As you hate on me for being Jewish, check.

            Yes, British Jews like me, your #1 target. Cry harder, we’re here, we’re alive. (As you’ve noted, the MO of this account of yours it to harass me, to not make any posts you won’t challenge on spurious grounds…)

          • LittleRedRidingHood

            Are you Jewish? You never said. Hate seems to be your favourite word. I don’t hate Leon. I see you as whining bug buzzing around my ears. Easily swatted away.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            So you deny something I’ve said a lot… as you come up with “favorite” nonsense based on the hateful nature of your posts, like your repeated apologia for Hamas’s terrorism.

            Of course you try and deny your hate, as you make murder threats about Jews like me, right.

          • LittleRedRidingHood

            Sorry pal, silly me. I should have put /sarc at the end

          • Leon Wolfeson

            But you didn’t, of course, as it wasn’t. Right.

          • LittleRedRidingHood

            Ah well, you’ll never know.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            So you claim magical mindwipe power now.

          • LittleRedRidingHood

            Mindwipe.? This is almost too good.. He he he!

          • Leon Wolfeson

            …No, you’re bad at it, as you failed to manage it.

          • LittleRedRidingHood

            I looked it up. The search came back with “are you feckin kidding?”

          • Leon Wolfeson

            You got banned from google? Ha.

          • LittleRedRidingHood

            Oh please!

          • Leon Wolfeson

            ….Bing? Oh wow, that really does take work!

          • LittleRedRidingHood

            Your tea is ready. What is it macaroni cheese for one on a tray in front of the box in your bedsit?

          • Leon Wolfeson

            See, I’m not you. Your talking to yourself… as you blame me for your isolation…

          • LittleRedRidingHood

            N0b!

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Mr. N0b, so you are.

          • LittleRedRidingHood

            Is this your idea of debate ? Children would literally run intellectual rings around you my insignificant friend.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Nope, as you said you were never here for debate, as you talk to yourself and admit you’re an idiot.

            As you’ve maintained, you’re here to spew hate at me, and you then whine when I mock you and your silly snotty hand-waving.

            (edit; h! Darn voice type

          • LittleRedRidingHood

            I rest my case.
            Any hope of you being taken seriously has just been lost.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Yes, indeed, you are what you deny, as you claim to mind control everyone again.

          • LittleRedRidingHood

            Did I really say that…? Gosh!

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Your posts exist, yes. Sorry to break this news to you!

          • LittleRedRidingHood

            Ah well !

          • LittleRedRidingHood

            Are you trying to taunt me into saying something anti Semitic?
            You sad sad little man. I’ll leave such comments to the Labour party and their Islamist friends.
            I’m way past the point where I take you seriously Leon.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            You’ve done so repeatedly, as you prove it again, as you try and claim Labour shares your friends based on a few extremists.

            And you seriously obsesses on me, as you’ve stated, so…

          • LittleRedRidingHood

            Labour have suspended over 50 members, some very senior. It is hardly one or two.
            Believe it or not Leon, it is always you who seeks out I.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            So you blame me for your posts, and as you inflate ..check.

          • LittleRedRidingHood

            You are a gift that just keeps giving. Brilliant

          • Leon Wolfeson

            “UR MAGICAL GIFT, I BRILLIANTZ”

            Hmm!

          • LittleRedRidingHood

            Fantastic.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            No, you’re simply a sad PC bigot.

          • LittleRedRidingHood

            I’m quite upbeat actually. It’s always a joy to discredit you as much as possible. But the best not is, you do most of the work yourself. Hahaha lol.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Beating people up is not being “upbeat”. As you say it’s a “joy” for you to scream your fantasies and hate Jews like me, to laugh up your extremism and to claim others magically work for you.

          • LittleRedRidingHood

            Have I ever touched you. Leona? I think not.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Tip – I don’t care what you say to your other personality.

          • LittleRedRidingHood

            They were Your words muppet. Or are you a schizophrenic.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            So you claim your posts are mine. No, I don’t have your issues.

          • LittleRedRidingHood

            In a word …. No!

          • Leon Wolfeson

            So you agree I don’t have your issues, right.

          • LittleRedRidingHood

            Really?

          • Leon Wolfeson

            There’s 2 years. Period.

            As you blame others for your dishonesty… as you magic up excuses for your Project Fear, as you talk about your bankers who have cash bet on Britain doing down the tubes… as capital flees…

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Yea. When manufacturing goes, it’s very hard to get it back.

            And the service sector one is critical. Possibly more important than the eternity of goods…

            (But I bet not on begging, the DWP will send people for fare-work, where you pay to work in no-wage factories for the privilege of not being arrested for being poor. I wish I was sure I was mocking…)

          • LittleRedRidingHood

            Who said that. We would have to a abide by regulation of whichever market we export to. Just as we always did. It is childish to suggest otherwise.
            You have little confidence in our ability to forge our own way and sound somewhat defeatist. What is it with you people. Gutless the lot of you.

          • MrBishi

            “Vote leave” said it.
            You are quite clearly another halfwit.
            The whole point of Brexit is to write our own regulations and to scrap the “awful” EU ones.

          • LittleRedRidingHood

            Clearly halfwitiscism is catching. Half those trade regulations are not created by the eu but merely passed down and implemented by the eu.
            I suggest you take a look at flexcit which points out the long path of withdrawal. It will have to be a phased withdrawal, regardless of what vote leave think.

          • MrBishi

            Flexcit is not an option, rejoining the EEA requires membership of EFTA or the EU.

          • LittleRedRidingHood

            There you go. The answer is in there somewhere.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Waste his time on a daydream, when “phased” is a bunch of nonsense – the EU will offer a deal, it’ll be take it or leave it. (And obviously it won’t be a good deal).

          • Leon Wolfeson

            After you’ve finished gutting them, sure, as you note your childish views and your destermination to forge ahead against your enemy, trade. You won’t be defeated, the trade must be reduced!

          • LittleRedRidingHood

            Do you realise how much of a d i c k you sound.
            Enough of your inane nonsense.

        • LittleRedRidingHood

          Only halfwits because most disagree with you.
          Sounds like you are not particularly confident that the UK exports quality products.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Your personalities disagree with him, hence…

            As you ignore the fact you want to severely limit those exports, to help other countries in our stead. And then there’s services…

    • “If one side of a “political” campaign is offering something extremely damaging – such as the Brexiteers – then “fear” is a most appropriate weapon.”

      “BTW, what is using the threat of 70 million Turkish immigrants, if it’s not fear?”

      Indeed, but then look how damaging staying in would be…

      • MrBishi

        There is a curious impression among Brexiteers that the UK is the first choice of destination for EU migrants.
        Why would people – from sunny climates – want to come to the damp and cold UK?

        • LittleRedRidingHood

          It doesn’t seem to have stopped them so far does it?

          • MrBishi

            The number of EU migrants to the UK doesn’t even equal the number of UK emigrants.
            This is a debate for ignorant halfwits.

          • LittleRedRidingHood

            White flight. I wonder why!

  • Marvin

    It really is ignorant to compare the Scottish referendum to the EU one. The Scots did not have a currency they so tried to cling to, they had total ambiguity about being accepted for membership of the EU, they thought OIL was their black gold for their economy and most of all they thought they could defend their country by not wearing anything under their kilts. The EU referendum is the difference of eternal slavery to a bunch of morons, a million migrants a year for every year and never ending increases in our billions to fund the welfare and upkeep of open door uncontrollable and never ending mass migration. OR FREEDOM!

    • Mary Ann

      Net migration from the EU last year was about 130,000, only about 870,000 short of your million, but never let the truth get in the way of a good rant.

      • Mr B J Mann

        And net migration of 1 would only be about 999,999 short:

        But if 60 Million and one came in and drove out 60 million would that be better or worse than “only” 130,000 from the EU and 830,000 invited in from outside by the EU?!

      • Tom M

        Mary the whole point is that the UK cannot control the number of people in the EU who wish to come here. This ideological notion of the EU that we must have free movement will buckle under the obvious inconsistencies. It is illogical for a country to build social services for it’s population when it doesn’t and cannot know what the population is.
        When the EU was populated by countries of more or less equal economies then people moving around wasn’t such a problem. The reasons for moving would be for career advancement or one form or another. That is a good thing. But not the mass movement of unskilled labour locally depressing wages.
        I listened today to a report that said the UK minimum wage is six times that of Rumania. Why wouldn’t they come here?
        Very shortly we will be admitting Turkey who, as far as I know have no minimum wage at all. What then? All that ignoring the patently obvious problem with the laws and democracy in Turkey or even that President Erdofans political party’s stated objective is to reinstate Sharia law or the UK borders would now be Syria, Iraq and Iran.
        Why is it the the EU need open borders when nowhere else in any trading block is there such a system?

        • Mary Ann

          The mininum wage here is higher here than it is in Eastern Europe, so is the cost of living, have you ever tried living on the minimum wage, it’s extremely difficult. After you have paid for rent and utilities and food and transport there is very little left. BTW, the Turks want to go to Germany, they always have.

          • Tom M

            Mary please, do you really think those who have “made it” to the EU are going to tell their mates back home it was a bad idea?
            As well as a minimum wage which would exceed the dreams of avarice in all African and Eastern European countries you get:
            free health care, free schooling (if you can’t speak English), If you have children Government handouts , free housing, income support.
            And everybody gets opportunities in a country where (by comparison) it is relatively corruption free and safe.
            Mary It’s just a better place to be. If you lived in Rumania or Bulgaria or North Africa wouldn’t you want to try your luck too?

          • Father Todd Unctious

            Turks like Mercs, Saudis want Audi’s……

          • wibbling

            Right, keep going with your little bit of info… why is it more expensive to live here? Why are utilities expensive? Why is food pricey? Come on, join the dots up. Accept that you are actually encouraging the problem.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Your capitalism. And she’s not encouraging you, so…

          • LittleRedRidingHood

            With 15 to a room and most of their money being sent back home. Its very easy to live here on the minimum wage.

        • Trailblazer10

          Because the EU is globalist. That requires destroying the nation state, culture and heritage are to be attacked. Group feeling and patritriotism must be eradicated. You must be made a marginalised minority in your homeland, which will no longer exist. It is a long term plan, relentlessly weakening you.All under the guise of being “humanitarian”.

          Precisely what your fathers and grandfathers fought against.

      • Trailblazer10

        Net migration is a deception. All part of the plan.

        • Mary Ann

          Net migration is not a deception when talking about the NHS, housing and all and the emigration of British pensioners to their place in the sun must be a bonus for the NHS, but if the outers get the way poorer pensioners will no longer be able to afford to leave Britain and free up hospital beds, the average pensioner spends 13 times as long in hospital as a young person.

          • WTF

            Ahhh, the bonus of all those ex-pats leaving the UK.

            Immigrants with diseases like TB that we had previously eradicated, a legion of translators because unlike Spain where we have to hire one if we cant speak the language in the UK they get them for free. Housing, those ex-pats owned their own houses but migrants have to be found places to live and be given housing benefit. What a deal, what a steal, in your dreams !

            The average pensioners spends more time in hospital than a young person ? Not true. The only reason some might stay too long is because of the parlous state of care for the aged and lack of home support, its called ‘bed-blocking’ look it up. I had keyhole surgery on my colon, out in 5 days, staples out in 2 weeks and fully recovered to where I could lift heavy stuff again in a few months. You’re talking nonsense again.

      • Bertie

        As you well know Mary he was talking a “Million ” migrants into the EU so stop deliberately misrepresenting. In fact there were more than one million migrants entering EU last year, just as there will be more than that this year, and the year after ad infinitum if we don’t stop it

        • Father Todd Unctious

          The EU has 550 million people, so an accretion of 0.18%. At that rate the EU will be ” swamped” in about 250 years.

          • wibbling

            Depends – when those individuals coming in are poor, with no useful skills the welfare systems collapse very quickly. That causes taxes to rise which further eacerbates the problem of poverty and so we get a chin of events caused by ideological dogma. Immigration is a disaster that needs to be addressed rapidly.

          • Father Todd Unctious

            Is it a coincidence that since the escalation in immigration around 1995 the wealth of the 1% has doubled?

          • Leon Wolfeson

            And yet you’re still here. As you oppose the welfare system, and as you hate on the concept of seeing people not like you.

      • grumpyoldrockape

        The Muslim population of London alone, however, is more than a million people.

      • grutchyngfysch

        Net migration just tells you the head-count change – it doesn’t tell you the impact of immigration on an area. And if you feel like disagreeing, then I’d invite you to comment on whether you really think it would make no difference at all if the same number of people lived on your street, but you swapped them all out 1-for-1 for people from another country.

        • Mary Ann

          Or in other words, you don’t like foreigners.

          • grutchyngfysch

            Interesting assertion, but no love, you’re wrong there. I volunteer time and my own resources working with homeless people and have been involved in advocacy work with asylum seekers, so I’m pretty sure that were I in fact motivated by a dislike or hatred of foreigners it would have come out by now. My wife is literally out this morning caring for refugees, and our church is attended by people from Eastern Europe, Africa and the Middle-East.

            In fact, it is my exposure to the realities of the costs of immigration, both to migrants and the communities that lefty luvvies dump them in, that leads me to conclude that immigration is not the untarnished joy that starry-eyed liberals seem to imagine it is (usually without much if any contact with the people they purport to represent).

          • Bristol_Boy

            No, not when you are the ‘foreigner’ in your own country. Take a visit to Bristol some time, that is bad enough but god only knows what it must be like in other cities where the ‘British’ are the minority in their own country.
            Only stupid, ill informed, leftist liberals would defend the constant immigrant invasion with the pathetic, moronic and ignorant racism rant.
            Good grief, what sort of person is it that is content to sit back and watch their country be broken up into immigrant enclaves, be subsumed into the destructive EU and watch their broken society become even more broken?

          • wibbling

            Ahh, I take it you live in Brixton then?

          • WTF

            I believe she lives in a quiet French village hundreds of miles away from Islamic ghettos in Paris, terrorism and all the down sides of un-vetted migration.

          • LittleRedRidingHood

            Are you capable of comprehending the words written. Do you think the dynamic of your street would change if every person bar you was swapped out 1 for 1 or 1 for 4 if Muslim? Simple question. Whether he likes foreigners or not had no bearing on it.
            Answer the question.

          • WTF

            In other words you refuse to answer awkward questions !

      • wibbling

        And how many of those people are useful citizens bringing in more wealth than they consume? How many are criminals? You don’t know, do you?

        • Leon Wolfeson

          So you don’t care about i.e. crime except…right.

      • WTF

        Mad Merkels Migrants haven’t got in yet but they will if we stay !

    • Mary Ann

      I expect Salmond is now relieved that he lost. Leaving the EU will not help our recovery from the recession which was the cause our financial difficulties not the EU

      • WTF

        I think a saving of 8 billion a year net will pay off our national direct and help our recovery don’t you ?

    • Jambo25

      Mention kilts – check. Print FREEDOM in caps – check. Display chauvinist English idiocy – check.

      • wibbling

        Crate strawman argument to avoid engaging with the debate for fear of being shown up? Check.

        What even in your most desperate fantasy is chauvinistic about the truth?

        Why, when you’re unable to actually debate do you attack? What’s wrong with you people? Are you so utterly pathetic?

        • Jambo25

          Perhaps its a level of irritation at the use of fairly mindless stereotypes and the easy recourse to individual and generalised insults.

        • Leon Wolfeson

          Yes, you do, check.

          As you blame “you people” – that is, the 99%.

      • Marvin

        Stick to facts dopey, what currency will this lot use, the EU do not want anymore permanent parasites, and their kilts are their first line of defence without Trident. Jambo HMMMMM?

        • Jambo25

          So immediate recourse to insults and continuation of saddo insults – check.

          • Marvin

            I am lost in the exhuberance of your verbosity!

          • Jambo25

            You’re just lost.

  • Jacobi

    That Cameron ever agreed to a devolution referendum, in Scotland or any other integral part of the UK, was a disaster and has inevitably lead, to petty, greedy, self seeking illusionists pushing for ever more power to the great cost of the peoples of these parts.

    Cameron should have pointed out from the start the Scots ( or any other part of the UK ) are either in or out, and if out, then the customs barriers go up from Burnmouth in the East to Gretna in the West, including border customs and passport controls on minor and major road and rail crossings, and oil concession areas based on international conventions, and Air Traffic control zones, both civil and military.

    As it is the ever greedy, wheedling, shambolic demand for more will just go on to the ever increasing annoyance of the rest of UK, intended by the nats of course, but also of those living in Scotland .

    Mark you, since everything else these days is falling to pieces, governments, regional or national, the EU, Europe, NATO, the family, the NHS, employment , immigration control either from Europe or from elsewhere in the world, does it matter any more?

  • antoncheckout

    In today’s German news: A leaked report shows that the Americans are now trying to strong-arm the EU on TTIP.
    http://www.zeit.de/politik/ausland/2016-05/ttip-freihandel-eu-usa-dokumente

    The US has threatened to block EU-exported cars to forced the EU to take more US food and agricultural products. And food safety standards are to be downgraded.

    It looks more and more as if one more good reason for leaving the EU is to avoid this Brussels bureaucrat-botched TTIP stitch-up.

    • right1_left1

      The US will almost certainly try to break Volks Wagen.
      They stomped on BP over the major oil leak that occured off the coast of Lousiana

      Not sure how influential they are but take a look at the , sensible IMO, anti Islam policies of the AFD party.

      • Dacorum

        Why should VW survive after deliberately cheating the emission standards and so adding considerably to dangerous NOX levels in our urban areas?
        What concerns me is that our government doesn’t seem to taking any action against VW.

        • right1_left1

          Mmmm !!!!
          Lets put 1000’s out of work and ruin a very very high tech precision engineering company in the process.
          Damaging ‘do goodery’ at it’s best !
          Meanwhile China Brazil and India plough on regardless!

          All auto. performance stats are as near fraudulent as makes no difference.
          Just like the balance sheet of the Greek economy or investment banks that having been successfully audited mysteriously ‘go broke’

          • Dacorum

            But this “very very high tech precision engineering company” was devoting its energies into deliberately misleading the emission standards so that they could profit and sell more cars with dangerous levels of NOX emissions to the general public who thought they were buying low emission cars! That is simply quite unacceptable.

            Why should they get away with that criminal activity? This wasn’t merely an omission on their part but a deliberate strategy to cheat and mislead that goes far beyond, say, the strategies that all companies use when measuring their auto performance stats. Car buyers all know that every company uses unrealistic strategies when measuring the MPG at constant speeds but, as they all do it, those stats are still a measure of which cars are the most fuel efficient even if the actual MPG figures are unobtainable.

            If VW are crippled or go to the wall, they have only themselves to blame. It would encourage the other companies to comply in future or to honestly say they cannot comply with the standards and hopefully the end result would be to drive more and more poisonous diesel cars off our streets. The only diesel vehicles on our streets should be commercial vehicles where petrol is not an alternative.

          • rosebery

            Do you really, seriously, believe that anyone bought a VW based on emissions figures? I’ve only ever had one VW, a 1988 Golf mk II Gti. I did not own it for its emissions rating. I am willing to bet that I was nit alone. The ‘standards’ are/were/will always be, aspirational, on the part of people who care about that sort of thing. The rest of us, as we always do, have more interesting or pressing things to worry about.

          • Dacorum

            “Do you really, seriously, believe that anyone bought a VW based on emissions figures?”

            I am willing to bet that I’m not alone in never considering buying a diesel car of any sort because I knew they were far more polluting than a petrol car due to particulates and NO2 emissions.

            I think what does influence drivers in their choice of car is the level of VED and successive governments have cut VED for so called clean diesel vehicles whilst taxing cleaner petrol vehicles far more in an effort to reduce CO2. That has helped lead to the situation where about half of new cars are diesels and explains why air pollution in the UK from NO2 is so high and why experts now estimate that there are well over 20,000 premature deaths every year from NO2 and particulates.

            The only way to counter the “don’t care brigade” who think “The ‘standards’ are/were/will always be, aspirational, on the part of people who care about that sort of thing” would be penal rates of VED on diesel cars.

            You say that “The rest of us, as we always do, have more interesting or pressing things to worry about” and so they ignore the danger to themselves, their families and their children who at buggy height on the streets of our towns and cities are the most exposed of all. Parts of London breached the entire annual EU safety limit for NO2 after just eight days of January 2016 which shows just how bad pollution is nowadays.

          • right1_left1

            IMO your reply points to a flaw in company law .
            I am not an expert but as I understand things companies are treated as entitities which have an existence in and of themselves. That existence is deemed to have a legal responsibility

            A company is a concept.
            The people who make decisions concerning how it is run are not.
            It is those people who should be held accountable

            Further ;
            Halt idle accelerate cycles caused by widespread use of traffic lights produce huge spurious engine emissions.
            Catalytic converters dont work at all when they are most needed.
            Speed humps damage vehicles deemed to meet all relevant standards
            IOW in order to solve one problem another difficulty is introduced.
            I assume you are just as censurious about the manufacture of cigarettes ?

            It may be true that idling emissions are in fact unachieveable.
            ‘Do gooders’ seem to operate in a dream world contained by unrealistic idealism.

          • Dacorum

            You will remember Nick Leeson whose deals destroyed Barings some years ago. Those in VW who decided to fiddle the emission readings may achieve the same fate for VW.

            The more I consider this case, and bearing in mind your replies, the more it appears to me that you may well be right about high emissions when idling and that in particular, meeting diesel idling emissions standards may either be unachievable or difficult and expensive to achieve. However whilst those are clearly important factors, it appears that the main reason for VW fiddling the emission tests may well have been to boost MPG figures in order to greatly improves sales and therefore profits. In order to meet the emission standards, reports suggest that fuel efficiency would suffer and diesel would therefore become a far less attractive option than a petrol driven alternative.

            Given that VW were fiddling the emissions standards, that emissions were far greater than the limits set and that it appears the main reason for fiddling the tests was to drive up fuel efficiency and sales, then I am very happy to be classified as a “do gooder” because VW were totally in the wrong to do what they did. An honest company would have said to the regulators that it wasn’t economic to produce a diesel car that could meet the emission standards required and put their efforts into producing petrol models. The real losers here are the general public who have no choice but to breathe these extra emissions that the company said would not be generated by their diesel models.

            The big error by government was the drive to reduce CO2 emissions by encouraging diesel car sales which has caused far more pollution from NO2 and particulates. That was a bad idea from start to finish and it has resulted in thousands of increased deaths.

        • rosebery

          I’d agree, if I thought VW were the only company to transgress. The limits imposed by the rules were, clearly, unattainable, so car makers did what they could to pretend that they had attained them. Flabby US car makers could not have been far behind the curve.

          • Dacorum

            “The limits imposed by the rules were, clearly, unattainable, so car makers did what they could to pretend that they had attained them”.

            If it was the case that the standards were unobtainable, why didn’t they say so? After all, it wasn’t the intention to set standards that could only be met by cheating/fraud!

            Or was it that that they cheated in order to produce better MPG for their vehicles which would help their sales and their profits, as recent reports suggest?

            “One of the big fears to emerge in Volkswagen’s diesel nightmare is that a fix would have a negative impact on the performance and fuel economy of the affected cars. Turns out that might be true—at least in Germany, according to an Automotive News Europe report. Apparently, a fix Volkswagen is attempting for its 2.0-liter diesel engines results in measurably increased fuel consumption.

            Volkswagen began its first of many European recalls in January to fix its emissions-cheating engine management software, found in an estimated 8.5 million cars sold throughout Europe. However, the recall has been delayed while VW and European authorities determine whether the fix negatively affects fuel economy—and thus changes the CO2 emissions of the affected vehicles”.

            http://www.roadandtrack.com/new-cars/car-technology/news/a28735/vw-german-diesel-fix-more-fuel-consumption

            The Americans should count themselves very lucky that they have very few so called high MPG, low polluting diesel cars because there is no such car!

  • Jackthesmilingblack

    TESTTEST
    Hey, the Contract’s been lifted.

    • not quite: is there a telephone van cross the street? Do you notice your mail seems tampered with? 😉

      • Jackthesmilingblack

        One advantage of not residing in police state UK is that HMG can’t send in the uniformed intimidation heavy mob as they did with Matthew Doyle. Did he sue MetPlod?
        Jack, the Japan Alps Brit

  • James Chilton

    British people are supposed to act defiantly when intimidation is attempted. In which case, Project Fear won’t work. But I wouldn’t count on it.

    • Mary Ann

      No, common sense will prevail and we will vote to remain because we know it makes sense.

      • James Chilton

        Who are the “we” you affect to speak for?

        • antoncheckout

          She speaks for Eurobots. 🙂

      • wibbling

        Common sense demands we leave. It makes no sense to stay chained to the sinking mess that it is the EU. None whatsoever. That the stay chained side are so terrified and spreading FUD proves it.

        • Leon Wolfeson

          Ah yes, the uncommon isolationism, no sense to trade, that stinking cooperation.. .as you use your silly fear and blame people for your fear of seeing someone not just like you…

      • antoncheckout

        As a foreigner you can’t vote – you appear to have forgotten that.

      • WTF

        Common sense already is here and the leave have it right now.

      • LittleRedRidingHood

        We don’t know if makes sense. That is the problem.
        The eu is a busted flush. It will collapse of its own accord before too long, but take everyone down with it.

  • grumpyoldrockape

    The unattractive side of the Leave campaign are those people who have it
    in for foreigners.
    The unattractive side of the Remain campaign are
    those people who have it in for their own country.
    Much of the EU debate is really about two matters: Immigration and Democracy.
    Those who want to be subservient to foreign politicians will vote to Remain.
    Those who want proper democratic accountability from our own politicians will vote to Leave.
    The EU’s defenders are clinging to something that is weakening: those who want to leave are reaching out for something better.

    • Mary Ann

      Remain is not about being “subservient to foreign politicians,” It’s about friendship, unity and freedom of movement, Freedom for our young to live and work in any part of Europe that those with get up and go want to be, also freedom for the average working class pensioner to retire to their place in the sun. Nigel Lawson is typical of the outers, he lives in France and want Britain to leave the EU and he has no intention of coming back, but he’s OK jack because he’s got loads of money. Europe will once again become the playground of the rich.

      BTW with FPTP the politicians don’t have to be accountable to us, they just have to get two or three percent more of the vote than the largest opposition party, unlike the EU Parliament which uses PR, and every vote counts.

      • Chingford Man

        Yes and freedom for the poor of Europe to come and beg in our streets and commit crimes. Not that it matters to you sitting smugly in your lovely French gite.

        People of all incomes lived abroad before 1973. Any more stupid points for us to demolish?

      • veryveryoldfella

        You cannot fail to taste success as the Remainers have brought out their big guns now. Ed Milliband has informed us we must stay in the EU to save the world. It’s like being assaulted by a wet sponge if you are a Brexit supporter, ha ha
        http://www.mailonsunday.co.uk/news/article-3568772/Leaving-EU-endanger-Earth-says-Miliband

        • Jackthesmilingblack

          Still can’t spell Miliband?
          I’m a racist!

          • veryveryoldfella

            Surprised you haven’t found a way to get your reply to come up in red, after all, that’s what used to happen in school to me!

          • EUSSR 4 All!

            Why should we?! He (and his brother) is a no-body!

      • Dacorum

        Mary Ann

        “Remain is not about being “subservient to foreign politicians,” It’s about friendship, unity and freedom of movement, Freedom for our young to live and work in any part of Europe that those with get up and go want to be, also freedom for the average working class pensioner to retire to their place in the sun”

        You’re not even a convincing liar – Remain is all about being subservient to foreign politicians and unelected and unaccountable bureaucrats. It’s nothing to do with “friendship, unity and freedom of movement” but all to do with the destruction of our country, our institutions, our separate national identity and our freedoms to govern ourselves. Above all it is nothing to do with friendship as the other member states are not our partners but are our competitors who see the institutions of the EU as a way to cripple us whilst they push their own agenda and enjoy the subsidies we pay them for membership of the EU.

      • wibbling

        The Eu is the most divisiveorganisation on the planet! it has crated war, poverty and unemployment! Good grief! Are you so utterly imbecilic?

        The PR is pointless. It has no effect on law whatsoever. As it is, such is set y an unelected, unaccountable body and passed by the same. The parliament is pointless – as you well know.

        Look, do you want to starve under a police state?

        • Leon Wolfeson

          No, you’re just using it as an excuse for your divisions, as you blame it mindless for everything. As you deny things based on your bigotry, saying democracy is pointless and demanding other facts be removed.

          And funny, no, she hasn’t called for your police state and deprival of food.

      • maic

        If foreign politicians can and do over ride British law and custom then that is definitely being subservient to foreign politicians. My best information is that when all this started British citizens were told that the EU was all about mutually beneficial trade deals and that British sovereignty would not be affected. Well that would be a laugh if it wasn’t so serious.
        Now we don’t have to all think the same on this issue but I am amazed that some voters put their current right to work and live in Europe above the necessity for citizens to maintain and retain the sovereignty of their own country.
        There seems to be an utter incomprehension by some writers that a country can trade with other countries and reach agreement on common concerns without sacrificing sovereignty. Other countries do it so why not Britain? My message to British citizens is that your politicians have landed you in this mess – not that most of them will admit it – and that you have perhaps one last chance to put things right. You were deceived once by people who told you they knew what they were doing and that they were doing it in your best interests.
        My suggestion is that you take back your country and put in people who will fashion a destiny where you, the citizens, have control over your borders and the laws which govern you.

      • WTF

        You poor delusional individual, I believe you can get a book called “The EU for Dummies”, I suggest you get a copy.

        Your right in one respect, under the current system remain doesn’t mean being subservient to foreign politicians, what it really means is being subservient to the un-elected Council of Ministers who create and draft EU (and UK) legislation and rules. The elected EU parliament just rubber stamp these laws to make it look democratic.

        As for in / out, there’s no evidence to show whether you’re an ex-pat living in the EU or a Brit living in the UK sways your vote either way. Wherever you live, there’s a similar number of people on both sides although at this moment in time, the ‘leave’ have it. You’re a remainer and you live in France and Lawson is a leaver and lives in France. I could equally say you are typical of remainers because you live in France but thats cr** and I don’t post cr** like you. You really ought to get someone to proof read what you post to avoid looking stupid.

      • LittleRedRidingHood

        You bring one of those pensioners eh?
        Why do you think it will cost you more if we leave ? Surely you made ample provision for your retirement didn’t you. To pay your own way etc.

  • Central power

    How can be anyone positive about this odious bunch of dishonest chancers like Gove, Johnson, Galloway, Farrage ?

    • veryveryoldfella

      What and embrace Blair, Mandleson, Campbell, Corbyn, Gerry Adams, Cameron, May, Osborne et al

      • Central power

        There would be no Tory Government without Cameron. There will be the nasty party without him.
        I agree Blair is vile. I dislike Corbyn’s policies but he is a conviction politician.
        That can not be said about the backstabbing dishonest and opportunistic Johnson

        • Malcolm Stevas

          Ah, anyone to the right of Cameron, or perhaps a bit libertarian, is “nasty”: this is the sort of defeatism that Margaret Thatcher would scorn but in which the third-raters running the Tory Party subsequently have over indulged. Possibly this is why Cameron missed the post-Brown open goal and had to share power with Clegg’s little band, and only just scraped in last year.

        • veryveryoldfella

          Of course there would be a Tory government without Cameron, just as there was when Blair left. Blair is vile, no argument there, but Corbyn a conviction politician, not in my book with a record of 40 plus years being a Eurosceptic but now supporting Remain. Self before principle, the same as Johnson.

          • Central power

            Tory Government with the likes of Redwood, Howard, Duncan-Smith, at the helm? Tell us another one.
            Brexiters keep claiming that Thatcher would vote leave.So she would be allowed to change her mind but Corbyn not. Actually she was a rather enthusiastic Europe supporter during the first referendum and never threatened with leaving. She just fought her own corner.

          • veryveryoldfella

            I rather think Thatcher fought for our corner more than her own, after all it was the Europhiles which saw her off. Corbyn is of course entitled to change his mind, you may even one day, but the timing of his epiphany is cause for scepticism. Thank you for a considered discussion.

          • wibbling

            Do you not want stable, small, efficiet government? Of course you don’t! You want a communist fascist one!

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Where’s she called for your silly confused fantasy?

            Nope, your big, controlling state…a capitalist one…

        • wibbling

          yes, without Cameron Labour would still exist. of course they would. The Conservatives would actually get ack to being the tax cutting society repairing on we desperately need.

    • Malcolm Stevas

      I admire Farage and vote UKIP. I do not think he’s either dishonest or a “chancer”. I distrust Galloway entirely and am not impressed by Johnson. Gove is rather good, just a bit geeky which fails him in the eyes of those who see elections, or high office, as some sort of crummy personality contest. It seems odd for you to lump together these disparate characters. I wonder whom you would like to see in power…?

      • Central power

        Farrage is not averse to claiming expenses from the EU (including the use of bodyguards in Britain). His resignation farce did him a lot of harm. He must know that the UK (part of his party’s name) is incompatible with us leaving the EU. The Scots would almost certainly separate. I do not deny that in his own way he may be well meaning.

        • Malcolm Stevas

          Why on earth should Farage not claim any expenses to which he is entitled? If you were to ask him why – as has happened very many times – he would yet again reply that it is has always been his ambition to make his post as an MEP redundant. In the meantime he’s getting back some of the UK’s large net contribution… I’ve followed Farage’s progress for years, seen him in action at close quarters too, and he’s impressively articulate, cogent and personable. The fate of the UK post-Brexit is another issue. The priority is for us to leave, and retrieve our ancient sovereignty.

        • wibbling

          This is typical strawman. The UK leaving the EU – which is inevitable – would have no effect upon Scotland and the UK would continue quite happily.

          So ‘central power’ – or should we just call you communist fascist? Your crazed, demented silliness is comign to an end.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            So you say that you’ll rip the UK out of the EU anyway. And you’ll force Scotland to stay, I see.
            No democracy or self-determination needed near you!

            As you want to call things your silly confused mix of ideologies.
            As you make more threats against those with other views….

    • wibbling

      Odd that you deliberately ignore the real criminals – the Left – yet point out those who you hate. Galloway is an imbecile, the others sensible.

      • Leon Wolfeson

        Ah yes, say that holding any kind of leftist views is a crime. That’s of course a thought crime theory, and needs lots of reeducation camps and a massive punishment structure for most of the country.

        You’re a totalitarian – which means big-state control.

    • Joey Edgecombe

      Never seen any evidence of Kate Hoey and Frank Field being odious or dishonest about their support for Brexit..

  • MrBishi

    The Tory party seem to have found the bottom of the barrel … and like it.

    • Dacorum

      You should know.

      • MrBishi

        My days of activism for the Tory party ended when Cameron and Osborne reached their first budget.

        • Malcolm Stevas

          Surprised that you ever supported the Tory Party: had you down as some sort of Lefty. I was a Tory for many years but dumped them in the ’90s…

          • MrBishi

            I’m afraid I was a serious activist and held pretty well every office at association level.
            I was, though, a “one nation” Tory, which is why I find the present leadership offensive.

          • Malcolm Stevas

            Thank you for the explanation.

          • Dacorum

            “My days of activism for the Tory party ended when Cameron and Osborne reached their first budget” and ” I was, though, a “one nation” Tory, which is why I find the present leadership offensive”.

            Given your replies, I’m therefore even more surprised, not to say totally astonished, that you are a keen supporter to Cameron and Osborne’s campaign to keep us in the EU which is designed to destroy this one nation of ours!

          • MrBishi

            Leaving the EU would be catastrophic economically for the UK.
            I remain gobsmacked at the way so many Brits are prepared to be lied to by snake oil salesmen.

          • Dacorum

            Oh dear!

            It is Cameron and Osborne who are the snake oil salesmen and you have fallen for their lies and their dodgy dossiers based on misrepresentation and invalid data!

            What makes it even more astonishing that you have fallen for their lies when you said that you have no time for them after their first budget and that you find the current leadership offensive. I’m therefore gobsmacked, to use your words, that you trust the Tory current leadership on Europe when all they have done in the past is let you down and betrayed what you believe in.

          • MrBishi

            The only liars in the Brexit debate are the Brexiteers, who cannot even tell their helpless and brainless prey what Brexit will look like. Just a series of lies and unachievable aims.
            I don’t trust the Tory leadership on this matter and I have been blogging on it long before they decided on “in”.

          • Dacorum

            Brexiters are not liars. The one thing all Brexiters have in common is that they want us to govern ourselves and to determine our own laws, determine our own immigration policy etc and for our government to be solely responsible to the electorate for the discharge of their duties and not to Brussels and the European Courts.

            In other words, it will be up to the electorate what Brexit looks like. We could, for example, elect a government that would have a tight immigration policy or one that would be more liberal, and if we don’t like the results, we can vote in a different government with different policies. The whole concept of restoring democracy and accountability is something that only Brexit can and will deliver and then it will be up to us.

            You wrote :”I don’t trust the Tory leadership on this matter and I have been blogging on it long before they decided on “in”. I don’t doubt that but what is truly astonishing is that you want to follow their lead now over the EU when you know they have lied and let you down in the past. To repeat the same mistake and trust them now makes you a fool.

          • MrBishi

            You are an ignorant fool.
            There is not an election due in the UK for another 4 years.

          • Dacorum

            Oh dear, you’re wrong again.

            Firstly, you’re the ignorant fool for thinking this government with Cameron and Osborne at the helm can continue if we vote for Brexit. Kenneth Clarke said Cameron would last about 10 seconds if that happened. At the very least there will be a change of leadership and it won’t be Osborne. The mandate for that Conservative government would be the vote to implement the vote for Brexit and they would in due course be accountable to the electorate at the next General Election.

            Secondly, there are provisions for holding an earlier election than 2020 if a stable government cannot be formed. That could well happen following a vote for Brexit or even if there was a vote to remain if that split the Conservative Party.

          • MrBishi

            When in a hole, it is best to stop digging.
            If the nation votes for Brexit then – IMHO – sacking Cameron is the very least that should happen to him. I would prefer something with a serious element of pain involved, but that is unlikely.
            However, that you believe that the sacking of Cameron will cause the fall of this Tory government simply emphasises your remarkable ignorance.
            A new Tory will be chosen to lead the government – probably Boris Johnson – as if the UK won’t have enough problems without appointing a clown to lead us.

          • WTF

            This Tory government is split already and you don’t know what may happen if Brexit occurs anymore than anyone else. Wishing for something with your level of arrogance doesn’t make it so !

          • MrBishi

            The government will not fall.

          • WTF

            Governments fail (call an election) when they lose the majority and can no longer govern. Its not beyond the realms of possibility that this might happen as it has before.

          • Dacorum

            Oh dear! You appear to have commented without reading or understanding what I wrote!

            You seem to be agreeing with me as I wrote that “At the very least there will be a change of leadership and it won’t be Osborne. The mandate for that Conservative government would be the vote to implement the vote for Brexit and they would in due course be accountable to the electorate at the next General Election”.

            I never said the Conservative government would fall if the country voted for Brexit and the only reason I added my second point about an earlier election than 2020 was to answer your point about fixed term elections and to explain the circumstances when there could be an election before 2020.

            We are of course in complete agreement that, in the event of Brexit, “sacking Cameron is the very least that should happen to him”.

          • LittleRedRidingHood

            Once article 50 is invoked it will take at least 2 years before we can start our withdrawal process. Every single institution currently in auspices of Brussels will be subject to a negotiated exit. Bang, your 4 years are nearly up. It will take years to untangle ourselves. It certainly won’t happen overnight, so your point is moot.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            No, two years from the actual notification, we’re out. The negociation is a single one, within the EU, the UK has no say in it. Two years, period, done.

          • LittleRedRidingHood

            Unless it is extended. Which can also happen.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Really, where’s the basis for that in EU law?

          • LittleRedRidingHood

            Member States have to agree, but it would be in their best interests to ensure an orderly exit wouldnt it .

          • Leon Wolfeson

            edit; Oh right, actually looked it up requires a EU Council unanimous decision, which means we’d need to make concessions in every case, and still might not get it!

            Wave goodbye to Gibraltar, anyway!

            And no, it’ll be in the interests of many to screw Britain over and take our trade, if we put ourselves in that position. It’s simple, rational self-interest.

          • LittleRedRidingHood

            We can at hardball as well. The euro zone is very fragile. I’m sure the large eu corporations may have a say if they think they will lose the ability to trade with us tariff free.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Your personalities…will cause trouble in the banks…hurt as many as you can, right.

            And your Caribbean island isn’t significant for anything but banking, so right.
            Other companies will just have to cope with the tarrifs you’re trying to establish, as you oppose free trade.

          • LittleRedRidingHood

            I think you have a substance abuse problem Leon. Its ok there are plenty of support services for people with your tragic problem. I feel for you.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            You’re not thinking and projecting again, right.
            As you note plenty of far right thugs will kill Jews, right.
            You want to feel me up, I have no doubt.

          • LittleRedRidingHood

            I don’t know any but you seem to be more in the picture there.
            Define far right Leon.
            The only thugs seem to be far left thugs at the moment. You know, committing actual violence or encouraging it. But as a lefty, you don’t see that.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            You don’t have any friends at all? Right. As you claim Jews are “in the picture” for your far right… yea, obvious contradiction there.

            As you defend, frantically, Brevik. Denying his action, and making up magical claims . And as you spew PC.

          • LittleRedRidingHood

            Define far right!
            Your pet term.
            Why on earth do you think I defend or support Brevic? I don’t believe I have said or intimated anything of the sort.
            Your warped interpretation and lack of comprehension is to blame.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            The fact about your views… as you try and hide the crimes of the far right…

            And no, you don’t think much, as you stand with your Hero there.
            As you blame my reading and understanding your views.

          • LittleRedRidingHood

            Who are You talking about. Who is this far right. Which organisation or body?
            Where are they, name names.
            What crimes have they committed?

          • Leon Wolfeson

            So you want to try and whine your way out of it.

            As you apologize for Brevik.

          • LittleRedRidingHood

            I don’t think so, but please provide the evidence where I said that.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            I agree you don’t think, as you demand I copy/paste your posts… the evidence is right there, and your issues with being called on it are yours.

          • LittleRedRidingHood

            You dare not you mean. You’re not exactly able to debate robustly, from your position of weakness….being you have no argument.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            No, I mean you’d like to stop me from lots of things in your fantasies, as you scream I’m magically to you weak, as you ignore all other arguments and refuse to debate.

          • LittleRedRidingHood

            I pity you because I’ve just realised that you think this is a debate and your posts are arguments.
            Oh dear.

          • LittleRedRidingHood

            If anything would stop you talking so much shyte I’d buy it.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            So you want to take sovetinety away from Parliament, and determine what rules apply to you, and which laws ou get to ignore. Right.

            To be able to block the borders, to ignore basic rights and international law, to limit the electorate.. as you deny the fact it look like whatever the EU would offer us, take it or leave it.

            Pretending that there would ever be anything but strong right wing governments, if you got your way… as you talk about putting back the old limits to the Franchise and making MP’s subject to less laws like the old days.

            As you want to make all the same mistakes Britain did centuries ago!
            The EU has done a lot more to protect my rights than Westminster.

          • WTF

            SANITY RULE No 11 – He who asks awkward questions can be
            considered a fool for 5 minutes, he who never asks is a fool for
            life !

            Enjoy FOOL !

          • MrBishi

            Lol.
            It is the Brexit lemmings who never ask where they are being led.

          • WTF

            Its a myth or urban legend that lemmings follow each other over a cliff to commit suicide.

            http://www.adfg.alaska.gov/index.cfm?adfg=wildlifenews.view_article&articles_id=56

            But its a fact that ‘remainiacs’ are like abused spouses who lack the backbone to leave an abusive relationship. You best move to mainland Europe if you want to continue being abused, at least for as long as the EU may survive !

          • LittleRedRidingHood

            What will remain look like in 10, 20, 30 years. Can you not tell me? It will take a decade to untangle ourselves fully from the EU. And of course we will have to be reactive to changes in predictions. It would be a nonsense to claim to know what out looks like, just as it is nonsense for you to claim you know what in looks like.

          • Mary Ann

            No they are Murdoch, the Barclay Brothers etc… and all the other non tax paying press barons.

          • Dacorum

            What a desperate and irrelevant post in reply to mine!

          • WTF

            Your posts wouldn’t be so bad if you could stay on subject instead of changing the subject to Murdoch who has nothing to do with WTO. I suggest you do some research and come back here to discuss tariffs and WTO instead of appearing dumb.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Funny, looks like there’s multiple campaigns to stay.

          • wibbling

            Leaving the EU would be a very good thing for the UK. All we need do is retain access to the EFTA.

          • Mary Ann

            EFTA, pay money, allow free immigration with no veto on who joins the EU, and obey the rules, without any say on what those rules are. Mugs game.

          • MrBishi

            EFTA is not what “Vote Leave” are proposing, they want WTO tariffs.
            EFTA costs the same, includes Schengen (open borders) and all EU regulation except farming and fishing with no say or veto.
            BTW, Norway spends the equivalent of £12 billion a year on its version of CAP and Switzerland £20 billion.
            Why on earth would anyone choose that option?
            More immigration and less sovereignty.

          • WTF

            WTO tariffs, in the unlikely event they come into play will costs us, wait for it, just a minute, best sit down first, the enormous surcharge of a MASSIVE 1.4% at worst case and zero in the majority of cases ! Listen to Daniel Hannan as he knows far more about WTO rules and tariffs than you know !

          • MrBishi

            I wouldn’t believe Daniel Hannan if Jesus vouched for him.
            Cars are 10% and farming produce 30%

          • WTF

            And other goods are 1.7% and farming products at 30% are hardly surprising with the amount of money France gets from CAP and still cant be competitive but even with that you can still get Californian grapes and Cherries in Spain.

            There’s a lot of swings and round abouts at the moment however the EU is attempting to sort out a trade deal with the US but is being held up by vested interests by one of 128 other countries. Its like deciding a common policy with 28 squabbling kids all wanting something different.

            http://trade.ec.europa.eu/doclib/docs/2015/january/tradoc_152998.1%20Trade%20in%20goods%20and%20customs%20tariffs.pdf

            Being selective with the facts doesn’t prove anything, try reading this EU document to get the truth.

          • MrBishi

            You cannot get Californian grapes or cherries in any popular supermarket in Spain and you cannot get Californian wine in a similar French supermarket.
            More lies from the Brexit side.

          • WTF

            Have you lived in Spain as I lived there for 11 years and I can assure you its possible to get them as my wife and I bought some from Lidl. Actually they were rather tasteless and over priced but being pre Spanish season for Cherries that’s probably why. Normally we’d wait until Cherries were in the shops from local suppliers in the Jalon valley just 30 minutes down the road on the Costa Blanca. Similarly, grapes from Chile was another import and being antipodean was useful for the New Years eve custom of eating a grape on each chime of the bells ringing in the new year.

            You don’t seem to know much about Spain do you, are ALL your assertions similarly flawed and just made up in your head ?

          • MrBishi

            I spend 3 months on the Costa del Sol (and 3 months in France) every year and Mrs Bishi, who does the shopping, often comments that she can only get local seasonal fruit and veg and – yes – she does shop in Lidl too.
            When it comes to lying, you’re a Brexiteer so your reputation trumps mine every time.

          • WTF

            There you go then, I don’t know which 3 months you spend in Spain but obviously not the months when Lidl has imported Cherries or Grapes. Clearly you seem unaware that when seasonal fruit & veg is in season then its mainly the local produce you’ll find as that’s the cheapest. Kinda makes economic sense unlike the EU school of finance. In fact I would buy fresh fruit & veg from open air markets as they were much cheaper than Spanish supermarkets and sticking to in season produce saves a fortune on the shopping bills.

            Perhaps Brits need to start thinking about doing that again just as I did in my earlier years in the UK, buy local, buy in season save money, save transport costs, save pollution and help the trade imbalance. Maybe a Brexit will change peoples priorities for the better instead of polluting Europe with diesel fumes just to load Tescos shelves with Spanish tomatoes that last 3 days at most in the fridge before turning to mush !

            Every cloud has a silver lining they say and your claims of Brexit lies are groundless. For someone who can’t even get their facts right over Californian cherries I hardly think you have any credibility over your unfounded, unverified and un-linked claims over Brexit or the lies of your friends the Remainiacs like Cameron who you now find offensive !

            It looks to me you’re more scared that a Brexit might mess up your dual EU holidays in France and Spain than any real concern for those in the UK if we stay. Most people in the UK don’t have the luxury of living there for 2 x 3 months and avoiding taxation & wealth tax declarations there, they either live there or the UK. They are rather more concerned with surviving in the UK than living high on the hog as you appear to be doing ! You’re not a real European otherwise you’d live there longer, register as resident as I did and integrate with the locals !

            Its been enlightening debating this as everyone can now see your true colors, cherry picking whats good for you whilst selling the lies you’ve been posting. You haven’t walked the European walk in any real way so I doubt any one here will take you seriously even if they did before. I needn’t say much else as you’ve said it all for me and everyone else here, thanks for that !

          • Leon Wolfeson

            So the daydream, and not having a say in areas we do now… while having to i.e. join Schengen…

          • Mary Ann

            And such a shame when Europe is coming out of recession.

          • WTF

            Just where do you get your ideas from, the tooth fairy ?

          • WTF

            How so, any facts to support your claim ?

          • MrBishi

            You are well aware of my views.

          • WTF

            Exactly, that’s all they are, your views and opinions, they are NOT facts !

          • MrBishi

            But they are facts as I have regularly proved by linking the EU documents which contain them.

          • WTF

            If you’re too friggin idle to put them in the same post where you make vacuous claims I’m sure not wasting my time on a fools errand searching all the articles in the unlikely event you may have actually posted a link pertaining to your claim.

            As you said above, its your “views” and there’s nothing to back it up with facts here and I doubt elsewhere.

          • MrBishi

            Your problem – apart from being a halfwit with the memory of a goldfish – is that I have been posting here for 5 years and the regulars all know that fact.

          • WTF

            Name calling or ad hominem attacks is the lazy excuse of those unwilling to supply verifiable facts. I’ll let others determine you veracity and respond if they wish !

          • WTF

            I assume you’re referring to Cameron giving he was the subject matter in your previous posts. Sounds like your endorsing Brexit !

          • MrBishi

            In your dreams.

          • WTF

            You seem confused when in one breath you slam Cameron and in the next back him by wanting to remain in the EU, at least I see him as a PoS as well as disagreeing with his policies !

          • MrBishi

            You really are a halfwit.

          • WTF

            As they say, half a wit is better than no wit !

          • Mary Ann

            The EU is NOT designed to destroy Britain, do you actually believe it, I have my doubts, stop scaremongering.

          • WTF

            Not directly but their actions and in-actions are doing a pretty good job of destroying the whole EU right now. Junker & Mad Merkels Migrants for example.

          • WTF

            Tis rather strange that he rejects Cameron & Osborne over lies on their budget but accepts all the lies from the EU via C & O !

          • Dacorum

            Indeed and I’m glad I’m not the only one to spot that!

          • WTF

            You’re welcome and its surprising what you can learn about MrBishi just from an unguarded response from him about California cherries being sold in Spain. There’s a long diatribe about this elsewhere but its pretty boring really other than he got his facts wrong again.

            Not only does he back Cameron over staying in the EU but detesting him at the same time, he also spends 6 months less a day in France & Spain (Tax dodge reasons I guess) whilst retaining his bolt hole in Britain. He clearly cherry picks the best of what he can lay his hands on and is scared sh**less that if there are changes after Brexit, he might lose out. He’s definitely one of the many cowards in the remain camp who are afraid of change and going it alone rather than looking at the bigger picture of whats best for the majority.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Er no. That’d be your exit lot, who as you well know are pushing for Scottish Independence.

          • WTF

            As Basil Fawlty would say “I have him down as a loony” with attitude, his allegiances seem to be all over the place.

  • Central power

    The EU is about the free movement of capital, goods, services and people. The Brexiters claim that they can negotiate a deal in which they will secure all of the above minus the free movement of people. What is negative about saying that this promise is just wishful thinking?

    • Malcolm Stevas

      “Brexiters” include rather a lot of very sharp, well informed people who dispute your closing assertion – one thinks of John Redwood – but it’s certainly wishful thinking to suggest the EU is primarily about “the free movement of capital, goods, services and people” when it’s actually about protectionism, empire building, controls on capital in our own City, a Kafkaesque bureaucracy lambasted even by the sub-Marxist Varoufakis, and the imposition of supra-national rule through the erosion of nation states.

      • Central power

        Your “well informed” comment simply does not answer my point.
        You forgot to add some other “evils” of the EU: workers protection,abolition of roaming charges, clean beaches act and other environment protection, steps against tax avoidance, gender equality, support for poorer regions etc etc. Your notion that the EU is run by some evil bureaucratic machine is just laughable.

        • Malcolm Stevas

          You exaggerate: I did not describe the EU as “evil” and I do not go in for all that “EUSSR” nonsense. it is indisputably a very large bureaucracy – and growing. It is a foreign bureaucracy, over which British voters have remarkably little influence. Maybe you find this acceptable. I don’t.
          I rather think we enjoyed numerous “workers’ protections” long before the EEC/EU was mooted; the other things you mention are not exactly beyond our national ability to introduce or improve if need be, either. The suggestion that such things are manna from on high courtesy of the EU is laughable…

        • wibbling

          Tax avoidance? The Eu endcouraged that tax avoidance systems many companies currently enjoy. Gender equality? A nonsense that the EU did anything about that. Have you not heard of Pankhurst? Clean beaches? No, again those were UK rules long before the EU lumbered in. Poorer regions? You think 52% unemployment is ‘supporting’ poor countries? What poorer nations need is not enforced socialism but markets. Markets the EU sets about destroying. As for ‘roaming charges’ those were agreed by the telecoms companies. The EU had nothing to do with it.

          The EU is corrupt, toxic, damaging and does not work. It is utterly, thoroughly anti democratic. It has caused the massacre in Serbia, the Ukrain conflict and will lead to the slaughter of more. It is a communist fascist bureaucracy.

          It is evil. It is time you grew up and accept the EU is a disaster for the nations of Europe.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Blaming the EU for everything, check.

            As you deny EU rules where they exist, as you blame the EU for “destroying” markets by enabling trade, as you say it’s like you when it’s not. As you blame the EU for people with your ideology in Russia and Serbia… as you claim it’s like your confused mix of ideologies.

            As you say having anything to do with the Other is evil, and call for Berlin Walls between every state, to avoid the “disaster” of ever having anything to do with them.

        • LittleRedRidingHood

          And none of that happens outside of the EU?

    • wibbling

      Nothing. it is entirely inevitable, not ‘wishful thinking’, it is the same trade deal that the rest of the world works on. it is the EU that is wrong and out of step with reality.

    • antoncheckout

      There will be no more free movement of people in the EU.
      The Gerrman Social Security Minister has drawn up legislation that will prevent all ‘EU-Foreigners’ (‘EU-Ausländer”) i.e. citizens of other EU countries, from receiving benefits until they have been in the country and worked or otherwise supproted themselves for a full five years.
      The German government could have supported Cameron’s negotiations on immigrant worker benefits – but it chose not to for opportunistic reasons. Now they have declared their own determination to look after their own national interests.

      We in Britain should do the same – by leaving the EU.

      Reports in the FAZ
      http://www.faz.net/aktuell/wirtschaft/wirtschaftspolitik/sozialpolitik-kein-hartz-iv-mehr-fuer-eu-auslaender-14203837.html

      and Die Zeit
      http://www.zeit.de/politik/2016-04/andrea-nahles-eu-buerger-sozialleistungen
      “Erst nach einem Zeitraum von fünf Jahren, wenn sich der Aufenthalt ohne staatliche Unterstützung verfestigt habe, sollten EU-Bürger einen Anspruch auf Leistungen haben”

      • Central power

        How will you stop “British” Pakistani/ Bangladeshi /Afghans having on average 4.2 offsprings? How do you stop them importing further people via marriage, family rights etc? The group which is the least dependent on benefits are the EU nationals, then the UK whites. You can have a guess which group presents the biggest strain the NHS and Social Security. The immigration from the Commonwealth has exceeded substantially that from Europe. These migrants are here to stay unlike many Europeans.As for the Germans it is much harder to get their citizenship and you can not be on benefits. The EU does not stop Britain from doing the same – it is the “good “and “benevolent” Whitehall.

        • WTF

          You cap child benefit at 2 kids or perhaps even 1 kid. China had a sensible child policy to ensure the system could manage but I wouldn’t go quite as far as they went but a 1 child benefit rule should work.

        • LittleRedRidingHood

          You have to start somewhere. Cap child benefit and other benefits to deter.
          Nothing is insurmountable

          • Central power

            O dear,dear me. Nothing stops the UK from doing it now. What next ?Forced sterilization? I agree on one point: nothing is insurmountable in dictatorship.

          • LittleRedRidingHood

            Hence the need to leave the EU.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Ah, splitting up families, other benefits to be denied to the poor to push up food bank usage by your British enemies… you won’t be stopped by any mere democratic vote…

          • LittleRedRidingHood

            Whatever that means.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Yea, just English, not like you care about your enemies, the British, after all.

          • LittleRedRidingHood

            Where do you think I am?

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Certainly nowhere near Britain, as there are people here who don’t agree with you after all – and you’ve admitted you know (not are friends with, know) only one person who disagrees with you on the EU!

          • LittleRedRidingHood

            Pretty arrogant of you. But I guess you’ll just have to remain totally and utterly wrong.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            So you say facts are arrogant.. as you accuse me of having your problems…

          • LittleRedRidingHood

            Read it again Leon.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            And my reply stands, of course, I won’t change my answer because of your whining.

            Facts are not arrogant, get over it. They’re simply facts.

          • LittleRedRidingHood

            Can you substantiate these ‘facts’?

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Your posts exist, yes.

        • antoncheckout

          Of course it is the EU that has “stopped Britain from doing the same” – i.e. restricting benefits for EU immigrants. It did so at the European Council meetings, where Merkel claimed that we could not be allowed to restrict benefits for the millions of EU immigrants who have poured into Britain as it was ‘against the principles of freedom of movement’.
          Now she is enacting legislation for Germany that does exactly what Cameron wanted to do – strip all EU citizens who enter Germany from the right to benefits for five years.

          It’s almost as if Merkel is trying to induce the British people to vote to leave the EU. I have often wondered if that is her true aim.

          You can take the Stasi out of the girl…

          • Central power

            Merkel has not stopped the UK from applying stricter criteria for the citizenship. Will you repatriate 1.5 million Brits from mainland Europe? Will you stop them settling in Spain etc? You can not have it both ways.
            As to the tired old chestnut about benefits please “never let the truth get in the way of a good story”.Just for your information:EU migrants pay £20bn more in taxes than they receive.

          • Mary Ann

            2.2 million and a high percentage of them pensioners, hate to think what will happen to the NHS if a lot of them have to come back because they can’t afford private health insurance and frozen pensions, pensioners spend 13 times as long on hospital as young people do.

          • Central power

            Any sane person would agree with you save for Brexiters. They do not mention the fact that the EU nationals in the UK provide 20 billion pounds excess in taxes compered to the expenditure on their benefits. We do not hear complaints from the Spanish about strain on their health service due to Brits living there.

          • Gordon Bee

            We the British tax payer already pay for healthcare for those Brits in mainland Europe, unlike those mainland countries with regards to repaying their citizens costs to the NHS.

    • LittleRedRidingHood

      That’s what it used to be about. It is now about political union, loss of sovereignty and totalitarianism. Who wants that?

  • WFC

    So, according to your graph, during the course of Project Fear in Scotland, “No” went from a steady 40 points ahead before collapsing to a 10 point victory.

    And that is why it was a winning strategy?

    • Central power

      If you do not wear a seat belt you can sustain more severe injuries. Warning about consequences of an action is not Project Fear.
      In the above example you must prove that not wearing a seat belt is risk free and not saying:”Have no fear”

      • WFC

        I agree. So long as the consequence warned of is both directly linked and plausible.

        Saying, on the other hand, that if you don’t put on your seat belt, all life on the planet will come to an end, would be Project Fear.

      • LittleRedRidingHood

        No one is saying it is risk free. They are saying it is a risk and uncertainty but for this one trip to the garage to get your seatbelt fixed the odds are you will be alright.

  • Andy Ellis

    Interesting that Nelson doesn’t even appear to understand the electoral system used at Holyrood, which makes you wonder about the worth of the rest of the article. The regional list seats which “top up” the constituency seats mean that the resulting 129 seats (not 73 seats as Nelson worryingly thinks Holyrood contains) means the number of seats will fairly directly reflect the % support for each party.

    If this is the standard of Nelson and the Spectatpr’s insight into the Scottish political scene, anyone looking for enlightenment should probably look elsewhere. Sloppy, sloppy journalism to go with the sloppy checking of the map, which appears to show the SNP winning 3 seats in NE of England!

  • wibbling

    Scotland should be encouraged to be an independent nation – it should remain part of the UK of course, but it should be given the choice to do as it wishes with the taxes it raises – but only with the taxes it raises. It should not be allowed to borrow money or run a deficit as a matter of course – same as the Isle of Mann but it should be allowed to manage it’s own tax affairs.

    Now, when Scotland does that and is bankrupt beyond measure, with all the wealth having left the country after rapacious socialist tax gras, Scotland should be forever forbidden from any concept that it can run it’s own affairs.

    • Andy Ellis

      Regressive, bigoted britnat tosh. Independent countries borrow and run deficits; an independent Scotland will do just as all the others do. The reason independence is becoming more likely, is the abject failure of britnats to come up with a believable and supported deco-max offering. Faced with a choice between the thin gruel “more powers” currently on offer, or the status quo, more and more Scots will decide the risks of independence are outweighed by the risks of staying in the union.

      Few people really believe the “too wee, too poor, too stupid” meme folk like you habitually use in lieu of rational argument, but such bigoted tripe does help the pro-independence cause no end, so do carry on! 🙂

      • antoncheckout

        Good luck with the waulking industry!

      • LittleRedRidingHood

        Yet the same meme is being used to keep us in the eu. We are too wee, too poor too stupid. That’s the hypocrisy I love from the establisment and useful idiots.

        • Andy Ellis

          The dangers of a negative campaign ought to be apparent to anyone post indyref1. Of course negative campaigning can and does work, but on its own, with no additional positive message, it risks blowing up in your face. The No campaign in the indyref lost over 20% of its initial support.

          The positive case for the union is there to be made, as is a coherent deco-max policy; the problem for British nationalists is nobody is making it, and fewer and fewer Scots really care, or would believe it even if they come up with it!

        • Leon Wolfeson

          No, that’s your meme. That we don’t have a say in the EU, that we can’t deal with other countries without needing to cower behind England’s walls…

          • LittleRedRidingHood

            We have less and less of a say. Just like how much say we are having with TTIP…. I.e zero.
            You want large corporates to dismantle our institutions like the NHS?

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Your personalities do? Good. You shouldn’t have one, frankly, stop meddling with Britain!

            As you try and ignore the fact TTIP is dead (yay!) now.
            And no, I do not want your goal of such.

    • Leon Wolfeson

      So it shouldn’t be independent, and you oppose self-determination. Right.

  • maic

    “O what a tangled web we weave
    When first we practise to deceive.”
    By all means give Scotland its independence if it wants it – making its own decisions and spending its own money – with no handouts from Britain. I wonder if there are other options, say autonomy in internal affairs or a “one country/two systems approach . However what should be avoided is the approach of “You dumb peasants made the wrong decision in the last referendum so you need to be re-educated so that you make the right decision in the next referendum. It’s your fault that we need another referendum because you gave the wrong answer when us experts clearly told you how to vote.
    In the EU referendum debate the Leave followers are being bombarded with a continuing series of prophecies of dire and destructive results if the Brexit supporters win the day. I suggest that if or when this happens all those politicians and so called experts who lack the skill or motivation to make the necessary adjustments either resign or get kicked out.
    On the other hand if the Remain side wins the losing Brexits may well feel that it was not a fair contest in the first place and a strong underlying current of resentment will remain – no doubt given force and confirmation by the continued arrival of unwelcome immigrants and EU constraints on British law and custom.
    Who shall rule Britannia? Its citizens or the EU bureaucrats and vested interests at home? That is surely the most important question British voters are going to have to face in the coming referendum.

  • stubuoy

    Hello, I’ve followed a lead from the Express regarding the Spectators debate. Really good.
    I’m now browsing your comments!
    But although you make some really interesting comments do you really think the EU will permit Brexit?

    There seems to be a possibility Brexit would trigger a similar situation throughout some of the EU states.
    Therefore, assuming the referendum takes place, remain or brexit the result must be remain.
    Why does it seem that the wealthy elite, especially politicians want to remain?
    Why are there so many threats and so few benefits shouted out to persuade us to remain?

    • WTF

      I agree, thats my real fear that Cameron, the EU or both will find some way to nullify the result if its an out.

    • Mary Ann

      Why do the rich tax avoiding press barons want us to leave, what do they hope to gain, they are not on your side, they are on their own side. And why is the Express stirring up so much hatred, it’s worse than the Wail. The only express reader I know wants to leave the EU because he “hates blacks and Muslims.”

      • WTF

        The Express or Mail isn’t stirring up hatred or even fear mongering, what you’re seeing is inconvenient truths that Cameron had previously buried coming out into the open along with foreign leaders sticking their noses into our business and Juncker admitting the EU needs the UK more than the UK needs the EU. Its sad but predictable that the remainers refuse to debate like Cameron or Osborne but get their lackeys to spread fear instead.

        Right now its a confluence of events, facts and truths that has swung the electorate to leave and rather than trying to counter it with facts, you’re trying to swing the remainiacs own “fear baiting moniker” onto Brexit. Its a case of fool me once, shame on you & fool me twice, shame on me but we’ve got wise to the remain stunts and we wont be fooled again !

      • LittleRedRidingHood

        You don’t get out much. I only know one remainer and he sounded like you. There is too much uncertainty to leave. Life is uncertain. Every day is uncertain. Lack of moral fibre is no reason to stay. Everyone else I have spoken to is keen to leave.

        • Leon Wolfeson

          So your circle of people you meet is so small you only a single pro-remain person. Total.

          As you want the certaincy you can rip off the British, and your lack of moral fiber is no reason to isolate the UK. That you only mix with rich bankers, who stand to make cash off sabotaging this country…

          • LittleRedRidingHood

            You calling the British odd? Are you a racist?

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Your small circle of Bankers is a. mostly not British b. not the British.

            And no, I do not share your views.

            (Oh, and voicetype error corrected, right)

          • LittleRedRidingHood

            Ah! only you are allowed typos Leon. Typical.
            Not sure what the rest of your nonsense means it how foreign bankers relate to me.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            What? No, more fantasy.

            As you decry English and it’s relevance.

      • Gordon Bee

        The rich tax avoiding press barons want out ,all of them ?are you serious.?

  • John

    Just as in Scotland – even if the vote goes in favour of IN , the issue will not go away – the Out voice, again as in Scotland, will simply get louder and louder

    • Brigantian

      The only problem being that if the Remain vote is in the majority (however that is achieved) the UK will be dismantled immediately afterwards to ensure there can be no future Leave campaign.

  • WTF

    There definitely seems to be a ground swell of opinion going in the leave direction both on recent QT programs and the Speccie debate. The latter was a slam dunk for leave after that first 5 minutes from Hannan and the rest from his side like Farage and Hoey was icing on the cake. On a recent QT we had Paddy Pantsdown spinning his lies and interrupting comments from the leave side and whilst a year ago the audience would have backed him, now he’s getting the negative reactions whilst the leave side get the applause.

    There’s one good reason for this swing and that’s getting real facts and having vested interest sticking their noses in our business. The leave have finally managed (a) to get facts being previously denied them by Cameron and (b) get them out there to be discussed. On the fear side, just like Pantsdown tried on QT, was more of the same cr** we’ve been hearing from them for years and its not held up by solid facts.

    Whilst the electorate can and does appreciate there might be unknowns in the future if we leave, there’s equally a number of unknowns far more frightening if we remain. Even Juncker admitted the EU needs the UK more than the UK needs the EU and the reason for that is without the UK, the EU will implode. This isn’t my opinion, this is Junckers and others opinion. To push for remaining is like saying I should have stayed with my ex-wife and be miserable because if I left she’d be even more miserable (which she is). Hardly a valid reason for staying in the EU so everyone can be miserable.

    Its not a slam dunk yet but the remainers have boxed themselves into a corner as fear isn’t working, they have no facts to promote staying and more & more is emerging to make leaving the safest option. The real risk in staying is the EU will bind new legislation to member states that prevent referendums like this in the future. They’ve got their own way by dubious means in the past but given half a chance, they’ll dump democracy and take the last vestige of power from the people.

    • Augustus

      “Whilst the electorate can and does appreciate there might be unknowns in the future if we leave, there’s equally a number of unknowns far more frightening if we remain”

      It’s not that difficult to contemplate the EU working towards a fully fledged supra-national organization, sitting entirely above national governments, including full fiscal union, and an increasing amount of the GDP of richer countries bailing out the poorer ones. Britain can’t stay forever in a kind of halfway house. The Eurozone countries are probably heading for a future of full political sovereignty, so Britain, having at least fought to retain its national currency, now needs to stop muddling on with a less than perfect long-term political relationship with bureaucrats in Brussels, and regain at last full democratic control of its political future.

      • WTF

        The only extra I would add is if we are successful in leaving, several other EU countries will almost certainly leave soon after and possibly the whole edifice of the EU will collapse as we know it.

    • trobrianders

      The debate reactions have been encouraging but only make a difference at the margins. Pollsters ignore too many people to have any idea and generally only interview people already using their PC media language. Most people don’t think or speak that way and I’m betting a majority of them will vote to Leave.

      • WTF

        I hope and pray you’re right.

        It could be a bit like the Trump syndrome where pollsters try and glean how much support Trump really has but because of the lefts campaign of racism & bigotry directed at Trump, it looks as though many voters wont reveal their true voting intentions to pollsters for fear of being similarly labeled. I suspect many leavers in the UK also feel ‘threatened’ by the remainiacs and will only reveal their intentions on a ballot slip. If true, the left have a terrible shock awaiting them on both sides of the pond coming voting day.

        • trobrianders

          A Brexit win in June and a Trump win in November will make the left double down. They will never accept they’re wrong. Actual purges of education and media will be needed. If not the left will be permanently agitating. I wonder whose side the police and army would come down on if push came to shove.

          • Gordon Bee

            Most of the military and ex military are Brexiters

          • trobrianders

            Thank goodness. As one would hope I might add.

  • Mary Ann

    Wonder if the housing market will collapse if Britain votes leave.

    • Charlie Anderson

      I think it probably needs to anyway – the current situation is unsustainable.

      • Mary Ann

        I agree.

        • antoncheckout

          So Brexit it is then.

    • WTF

      One can argue both ways on this as there will be benefits either way, just for different people.

      If it collapses, then a lot of young couples will be able to get on the housing ladder which would be a good thing don’t you think or would you rather prices continue sky rocketing making you richer but depriving newly weds of starter homes. I would argue that house prices are obscenely high in the UK.

    • Disqus Bolloqus

      I doubt it, but if it were to that would be a good thing

  • trobrianders

    The more stupid the population the better fear works as an electoral strategy. But voters are more concerned with trivia than they are with bothering with the conditions that affect their lives. Stupid people deserve everything they get.

    • John

      I agree, but the trouble with that logic is that the rest of us have to live with the outcome as well.

      • trobrianders

        That’s democracy for you; two idiots outvoting a genius.

  • Brigantian

    The campaign to Leave the EU does not have to invent things to be afraid about: it just has to wait for Ed Miliband and Liz Truss to appear side by side arguing to Remain.

  • grumpyoldrockape

    75 million Turks on course for visa-free travel in EU, despite not meeting key targets in refugee swap deal
    On Wednesday the European Commission is expected to recommended a radical loosening of travel conditions for the country.Turkey has warned that if it is not
    given the visa waiver – which will grant automatic access to the
    Schengen zone for tourists for up to 90 days – then it will “terminate”
    the migration deal.Promises were made to EU citizens
    over the last three months that all 71 conditions for Turkish free
    travel in the European Union would be met. These promises – given
    personally by both Merkel and Jüncker during March and April
    respectively – are about to be broken. The day after tomorrow, the EC
    will recommend moving ahead on visa-free Turkish travel in the
    Union…including the UK.

    No doubt the Remain campaign will say this is all scaremongering.

    • mailbiter

      Wrong. Not in the EU – within the Schengen area of the EU. They will have to get an EU passport in another country (e.g. that takes 8 years in Germany) before they can travel here.

      I don’t call it scaremongering. Well, I do – but it is more down to ignorance than anything else.

  • grumpyoldrockape

    Potential voters (and likely disinterested abstainers) in the June
    23rd in/out Brexit referendum need to realise something very important:
    Erdogan’s 90 day no-checks army of potential suicide bombers have access
    to the entire EU not just the eurozone. We already know on Theresa
    May’s own admission that some 15,000 Islamist terrorists are at large in
    Britain and we don’t know where they are. Now we are about to suffer
    the consequences of a grubby deal being done between a German, a
    Luxebourgeois and a Turk, all of whom have a long track record of lying.

    We are not being consulted, and we have no power over our borders to stop it.

    • Disqus Bolloqus

      We are NOT part of Shengen. Everyone, including British citizens, has to go through passport control before entering UK. It’s rubbish to say we cannot control our borders. We can. If we do not, it’s because we chose not to, or simply are unwilling to spend the money and resources to do the job properly. Stop blaming EU for our own failures.

      • D J

        Tell that to the terrorists who pop in and out of Birmingham.

        • Disqus Bolloqus

          They already know it

        • WTF

          If true then its because the establishment wrongly chooses to ignore it just as plod & social services chose to ignore the gang rape of 1400 underage girls by Muslim men in Rotherham.

          There are all manner of systems in place in the west to protect us from all types of threats, the problem is that those in control (elite establishment) craft legislation to allow them to cherry pick what they will support or ignore. For example, the killer who got into America on a spouses visa did so because the ‘rules’ on her specific visa made back ground checks optional and not mandatory. Hence they didn’t bother but other spouse visas do require mandatory background checks and had that been done, she wouldn’t have got in.

          Its the same sort of picture that’s prevalent in most immigration procedures in the west with perhaps the notable exceptions of Oz & NZ. They make the rules ‘flexible’ and then they make it easy for their natural voting group to get in whilst making it difficult for the rest. If you look carefully at any legislation or set of rules covering ethnic minorities, they are ‘flexible’ and can be interpreted under political guidelines from above.

      • grumpyoldrockape

        An EU resident can fly into Dublin, get a taxi across the border into N.I. and they are in the UK.They can then pop over to the mainland without going through any border control.

        • JoeCro

          I don’t think Ireland are in Schengen either.

        • Disqus Bolloqus

          I don’t dispute that. But defending our border with Ireland is not the responsibility of the EU, it is our responsibility. If we leave the EU it will not change the situation you describe.

  • Disqus Bolloqus
    • antoncheckout

      They know that 87.7% of all customers’ bets are for Leave. And at such handsome odds, well worth a flutter.
      That’s all they know so far. Bookies aren’t prophets – as they demonstrated at Aintree.
      And their odds are well-hedged.

      • mailbiter

        In other words, you wish it was the other way around.

  • Hans Wurmhat

    I’m sure I’m not the first to point this out but according to the map, since when have the SNP held seats in England?

    • JoeCro

      First Northumberland, next the world. Nicola Sturgeon is now unlimited in her power, bow before the dear leader!

  • Pretty_Polly

    Hello,

    My name is David Cameron of Brussels and Panama and my aim is to destroy Britain as you know and love it.

    That is why I have admitted over 750,000 migrants and asylum seekers in the last 12 months alone, why I support eastern extension of the EU and why I have done virtually nothing to stop illegals entering the country and remaining forever. I will of course repeat these policies this year and every year during my premiership.

    Up and down the country, I am told that my plans are working perfectly as people find they are becoming ‘Strangers Where They Live’ http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/immigration/9831912/I-feel-like-a-stranger-where-I-live.html and I am delighted my Defence Minister, Michael Fallon, has told me that our towns and cities are being enrichingly ‘swamped with immigrants’ http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/oct/26/british-towns-swamped-immigrants-michael-fallon-eu

    As the ‘Heir to Blair’ and Blairmore, I am proud to be continuing the pro immigration policies adopted by my close friends in the Labour Party and to be able to develop such ideas to extinguish ‘Britishness’ wherever it may be found. That is why I have abolished many of the planning rules in order to build huge anonymous new towns and cities in what was the monocultural and unenriched English countryside http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/04/16/plans-for-thousands-of-new-homes-threaten-green-belt-areas/

    I will soon be holding the long awaited confirmation of my views and opinions that Britain should remain an EU member forever and I will personally ensure that the Remain campaign is full of lies, threats and propaganda to obtain the highly desirable Remain outcome, thereby wiping the floor with a blonde haired mop. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boris_Johnson

    As you will understand from the foregoing, I am extremely excited about the forthcoming abolition of Britain and ‘Britishness’ by my friends in the European Union who have assured me that a new name has already been decided for these very small inconsequential islands..

    Consequently, to further the re-writing of British history and the destruction of British traditions, they have chosen ‘EU Sector North West’ which must now be written below your postcode or your mail will no longer be delivered.

    God Save The President of the EU Commission ! Rule Jean Claude Juncker !

    Yours sincerely

    David Cameron

    Governor General EU NW – Designate.

    • JoeCro

      Unity is strength. Vote remain.

      • Pretty_Polly

        Oh you mean the United States of Europe.

        No thanks.

    • mailbiter

      You’ve been posting that for many weeks, now. Doesn’t read any better, though.

      • Mongo

        it’s all true though

        • mailbiter

          I think Pol is trying to be satirical and amusing. It’s neither.

      • uberwest

        You’ve been posting gibberish for years.

        • mailbiter

          FFS. Try to be original, you lot.

          • uberwest

            FFS? What’s that mean?

          • mailbiter

            JHC, you don’t know that?

    • amanuenensi

      Piffle

  • Yorkman99

    Sturgeon and Cameron are like two peas in a pod. Both try their best to destroy their own countries.

  • The race is on for EU presidency;

    Nick Clegg doesn’t have a chance.

    Tony Bliar has a huge portfolio advantaged by elapsed time.

    David Cameron thinks he’s running to the finish line with the most cachet.

    Are our political elite desperate to place what’s left to take from us on a Brussels platter just for meager reward? Because whatever they’ve been promised will undoubtedly go to a hard line europhile with no concern for upholding everything we hold dear about hard won democracy, regional cultures, identities and Nations – let alone our personal safety and well-being.

  • amanuenensi

    What a jolly idea. Lets destroy the 400 year old Union of England,
    Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland, devastate the British economy, cut
    tax receipts, cut the NHS and public services because we are
    terririfed of a sack of drug addled criminals claiming to be muslims.
    The fact is that more of us have died of bee stings in the last ten years
    than muslim fanaticism. Have we gone completely mad and totally lost
    our bottle because of a few hairy smelly little thugs? That is the real Project Fear.

    • Mongo

      but bees don’t *want* to kill us nor are they bent on changing our way of life. Plus they provide an essential ecological role

      perhaps I could make an exception for the ‘killer’ bees strain – more properly known as ‘Africanised’ bees (coincidence?)… hmmm… or should that be ‘Islamified’ bees?

    • mailbiter

      Interesting that most kippers on here don’t like Scotland either (actually, they seem joyless in virtually every regard). They want Scotland to bog off and become independent.

      So the very people who claim the love the UK are the ones looking to dismantle it.

      • Tamerlane

        Love what WAS the UK not what IS. Big difference.

        • mailbiter

          An opinion on how they feel about the UK was not my point. ‘UK’ is in ‘UKIP’, yet many kippers want to dissolve the UK.

          • WTF

            Your point was all about how you felt UKIP viewed Scotland, sounds like your back tracking now !

          • mailbiter

            Not it wasn’t. It was about what kippers say they want, not how I feel about that. And many say they want to dissolve the UK.

          • WTF

            Very strange, I just googled “does UKIP want to dissolve the UK” and got ZERO hits ! I wonder why that was ?

          • mailbiter

            Google does not index Disqus conversations, that’s why.

            BTW: I did make it clear that many kippers want to dissolve the UK, but that this aspiration is contrary to Farridge’s view.

          • WTF

            Your post above claimed “many kippers want to dissolve the UK”, if that was the case it surely would have been searchable under Google. Maybe some here on Disqus might have had those views and perhaps had you said that some Disqus posters had said that rather than kippers, we’d know what we were discussing.

          • mailbiter

            No it wouldn’t. I’ll say it again – Google does not index Disqus conversations. So they are not returned in a Google search. I don’t know how I can be any clearer than that.

          • WTF

            Its a pointless discussion when there are those on both sides wishing for a ‘divorce’ !

          • mailbiter

            And there are those on both sides that wish to say married.

            My original post was to point out the irony in that many kippers want to ‘save’ the UK by getting out of the EU, but then immediately dissolve the UK by throwing out Scotland.

          • WTF

            Equally true of the SNP who wanted to dissolve the UK and leave themselves in unknown territory with regards to membership or not of the EU. At least if the UK votes to leave the EU we know we’ll no longer be a member and take it from there with some certainty over borders, currency, sovereignty.

          • mailbiter

            Of course the SNP wants to dissolve the UK! That’s why it exists.

            The irony is that many kippers support the UK Independence Party, yet want to dissolve the UK.

          • WTF

            The SNP have their reasons to break up the UK and I’m sure these people who you claim are kippers who want to dissolve the UK probably have their own reasons too. I don’t think its a good idea whoever promotes this idea but its still a free country at the moment to voice an opinion.

          • mailbiter

            It is not I that claim they are kippers – it is what they say. And there are too many of them for them all to be liars.

            As I said before, please read my posts more carefully.

      • WTF

        Most in UKIP believe in self determination for Scotland just as we believe in the same for the UK. The thing is, if we divorce ourselves from the EU we walk away with nothing and according to remainers, we also leave ‘benefits’ behind but we’re quite happy with that to get out of an abusive relationship. As far as Scotland is concerned, if the people feel they are in an abusive relationship with England & Wales they can equally walk away from us and leave behind the benefits we have been giving them like the Barnett formulae and national security.

        We are neutral on the issue as its down to the people of Scotland to decide what they want as we’re not telling them to bogoff as you put it ! We have a preference that they should stay but its their choice. Just where you sourced these lies about UKIP from is anyones guess but I doubt you’ll share it with us !

        • mailbiter

          They are not lies. It is what many kippers have been saying on Disqus for the last few years. And they don’t seem to give a hoot what the Scottish think – they want to throw them out and dissolve the UK. This is contrary to the opinion of Farridge, interestingly.

          • WTF

            I re googled using “does UKIP want to kick scotland out of the union” and came up with one source namely a UKIP donor who wanted a referendum for England and Wales but its not UKIP policy as you state.

            However think about it, Salmond and many others north of the border have been saying “Dump England & Wales, we want to be on our own” by using a referendum and the only thing this donor said was exactly the same, namely have an English referendum to decide if we should leave Scotland to their own devices. No difference really, is it ?

          • mailbiter

            I never said it was UKIP policy – although I did make it clear that Farridge favoured the union and even wanted the Queen to intervene on behalf of the No camp.

            What I did say, however, is that many kippers want to throw Scotland out of the union and thereby dissolve the UK.

            Please read my posts more carefully.

          • WTF

            OK, so many in Scotland what to Dump / Leave England & Wales and many Kippers in England & Wales want to Dump / Leave Scotland. So what ?

          • mailbiter

            It is odd that those kippers keep bashing on about the UK when they actually want to get rid of it.

          • WTF

            You keep calling them kippers when their only posters on Disqus, I don’t know what political allegiance they may have and despite reading the Speccie regularly I haven’t a clue if they are UKIP supporters anyway. In fact it may not be odd to these posters wanting to dissolve the UK but until I see a post and can ask them why, its all a bit of a non event isn’t it.

          • mailbiter

            Well, they say they are kippers. Maybe they are liars, eh?

  • antoncheckout

    The European Union will destroy itself over the migrant crisis. The latest bright idea from Brussels – following European Council talks that ended without agreement on 21st April – is to redistribute the imigrants all around the EU so that each country is forced to take a quota dictated by Brussels, and to fine every EU country that does not take its allocation of migrants, at the rate of 250,000 euros per immigrant.
    https://next.ft.com/content/346ba28a-10b8-11e6-bb40-c30e3bfcf63b
    http://www.faz.net/aktuell/politik/fluechtlingskrise/die-eu-kommission-rudert-zurueck-14214364.html

    That should certainly help to concentrate the voters’ minds.

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