The Spectator's Notes

Two foreign leaders could swing the EU referendum: Erdogan and Assad

19 March 2016

9:00 AM

19 March 2016

9:00 AM

Do Recep Tayyip Erdoğan and Bashar Assad support ‘leave’ or ‘remain’ in Britain’s EU referendum? I ask because they are the most powerful foreign leaders in deciding the vote, their views being much more effective than any sonorous words that may soon be offered by Barack Obama or any last-minute inducements from Angela Merkel. If President Assad — his position secured by Vladimir Putin — decides to make a dramatic gesture between now and 23 June, and call for some peace conference, preferably in a European capital, then the sense of crisis which makes the EU look so weak will dissipate. If President Erdoğan accepts the latest EU bribe and temporarily halts the export of terrorists and ordinary, decent migrants to the union, then it may seem, for the few months necessary, that order has been restored and European solidarity has worked. Only later will the arrival of millions of Turks into the Schengen area as part of the deal cause consternation. On balance, both these feints should be considered quite likely, although one must doubt whether Assad or Erdoğan have any love for ‘our common European home’. A ‘remain’ vote, which helps to perpetuate the illusion of a single European actor in world affairs, would help both men bamboozle the international system for longer. It is a long time since the Ottoman world has been so important in British politics.

A friend draws my attention to the statement of the European (Catholic) Bishops’ Conference on Europe, published in March 2007 to mark the 50th anniversary of the Treaty of Rome. It was celebratory. The first paragraph said ‘We consider it our duty to carry on the work of European construction, bearing in mind that it is a century-long task… In 50 years we have built a new “cathedral” for all Europeans.’ An interesting feature of this statement is that it marks almost the last possible moment at which such remarks could have been made. That summer, the inter-bank market froze, and the world of money entered a prolonged crisis from which the eurozone has still not emerged. It turned out that the ‘cathedral’ for all Europeans was not fully funded and may have been built on sand. Then came the great migration, with its attendant confusion and fear. The ‘cathedral’ could not agree who should be given sanctuary. The congregation increasingly found that they did not all worship the same god. Of course, seen from a religious point of view, the last decade is much less than the twinkling of an eye, and it is possible that the cathedral could be rebuilt. But that sense of what the Prayer Book calls ‘sure and certain hope’ has trickled away.

Debate rages about whether Britain, having left the EU, would resemble Canada, Switzerland or Norway. Two points should be borne in mind. The first is that whatever deal Britain has with the EU afterwards need not be the same as that of any of the above, Britain being far more economically important to Europe than them. The second is that there isn’t much wrong with the plight of Canada, Switzerland or Norway. If the ‘remains’ (as they are best called) really want to win this argument, they would need to show that we would be like Sudan or North Korea, or at least Belarus or Egypt, if we left. To threaten us with attaining the state of three of the most stable, prosperous and free countries in the world is not very frightening.


There are several books and films (Shout at the Devil, Hotel Rwanda, Shooting Dogs etc.) about the genocide in Rwanda in the 1990s. They show how the western powers/United Nations stood by and let hundreds of thousands of people be murdered. People are disgusted and perplexed by how such a thing could have happened. A partial answer is that we tend to pay attention to such things only when it is too late. Just now, the three preparatory symptoms of something terrible are evident in Rwanda’s neighbour Burundi. They have been identified by the Archbishop of Canterbury, who recently returned from a mediating mission to church leaders in Burundi. They are: the stockpiling of weapons, the sharp increase of sexual violence against women, and the dissemination of inflammatory rumour (e.g. describing Tutsis as ‘cockroaches’) through modern technology, in this case WhatsApp. So far, hardly any other public figures are paying attention. No doubt, though, once the massacres have happened in Burundi, there will be some cracking good films about them.

Elsewhere in this issue, Simon Barnes writes powerfully in favour of ‘political correctness gone sane’ — the way that social pressure to respect difference, disability and so on does actually help create a kinder society. He is to a great degree right. Many PC doctrines are soundly based on the traditional injunction to support the weak, a call which constantly needs repeating and re-expressing because it goes against the Darwinian side of human nature. But I do blame the repressive puritanism of political correctness for provoking such a strong reaction, which might be called ‘political incorrectness gone mad’. Without this, how could Donald Trump possibly have got near the Republican nomination?

If you had to explain to tourists what was the most interesting thing about Trafalgar Square, you would presumably start with Nelson’s column and Landseer’s lions (although in fact there is a more dramatic history in the statue of King Charles I looking down towards the place of his execution). As I passed through the square last week, I heard a guide get going: ‘This is Trafalgar Square — location of the largest Harry Potter party in history.’

One of the tiring aspects of national journalism is the demand for interesting headlines. This does not afflict the local press. This week, our local paper  splashes: ‘No action on lettings agency’.

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Show comments
  • Roger Hudson

    Shouldn’t it be three?, Erdogan,Merkel and Assad.
    While some in the ‘remain’ camp concentrate on short term economic fears ( mobile roaming charges going up being the most pathetic) the ‘leave’ group are concentrating on the big issues, sovereignty, migrants and EU-kowtows to Turkey.

  • davidshort10

    I witnessed the aftermath of a Hutu-on-Tutsi massacre in Burundi in 2004 and, yes, it can surely happen in Burundi.

  • Terence Wilkinson

    So “Darwinism” rears its head again with the strong implication that without political correctness people who believe in science would be throwing the disabled into the nearest gas chamber. Of course the religious, if history is anything to go by, would not be so cruel but would instead burn them at the stake or drown them for their own good. Would it be churlish to bring Mr Trump into this conversation, who while proclaiming to be a man of faith mocked a disabled man? I am neither religious nor believe in political correctness, yet somehow have managed to live 40 odd years without being cruel to a disabled person. People are people. It was not religion that taught me this, nor politics, nor even science, but visiting a seriously disabled relative in a special hospital when I was a child. These visits also taught me that it is better not to lock people out of sight but to help them live full lives. Surely Mr Moore would agree that science and technology help with this goal?

    • goodsoldier

      When did Trump mock a disabled man?

      • Terence Wilkinson

        November 2015. He was accused of mocking an autistic reporter.

        • WTF

          Does that make him wrong on wanting to control his borders and vet migrants ?

        • Pioneer

          “accused”. It was a false accusation, as usual.

  • John Andrews

    Voting for Brexit will do a power of good for an EU which needs to discover that subsidiarity, flexibility and democracy are good things. If Germany wants zillions of migrants, so be it. If Poland does not want them, so be it. But if there is to be a common immigration policy for the EU we cannot have countries like Greece and Germany taking unilateral decisions and then instructing other states to accommodate the newcomers. Turkey can do us a favour by highlighting the unworkability of the present free for all.

  • Jacobi

    I have said before that anyone who opts for Brexit is daft. That is a “nice” polite word.

    But now, and one must now say it that if in the current negotiations with Turkey, there is any suggestion at all that Turkey, a Muslim nation of 70 million Muslims, ever be allowed into the EU or if the Turkish visa restrictions be in any way way be relaxed, or if this absurd Turkish one for one be for a moment agreed to, then that changes the game completely.

    UK citizens will then have a duty to vote for Brexit. The danger of Islamisation of Europe is paramount. We in UK will not only then be not of the EU, but against it.

    • Jacobi

      I hear in this morning’s news that the EU, at the insistence of Merkel, has conceded visa relaxation for Turks. That’s it!

      Brexit!

      • Marvin

        At least something has made you see the light. A few more things though. If we remain, where do you think the EU will send a few hundreds of thousands of Moslem migrants to as a quota? how much more will we have to pay towards their permanent prosperous lives into the pot? where are we going to put them? how do we control their violent demand due to their sheer numbers? how do we breathe any fresh air?

        • goodsoldier

          How do we fulfill their sexual demands?

          • Marvin

            Now that is a problem that these ignorant Cretans of Europe dare not think about. The size of their population in a few short years, especially with their entitlement to claim child benefits.

        • Jacobi

          We do not control them. Their intention is to control us. That’s one thing if they are in Turkey, but here, that is another matter.

      • OmnipotentWizard

        Stop reading the Daily Express – it rots your brain.

    • WTF

      I’m sorry to say it but where have you been for the past few years. Farage made clear a long time ago that we weren’t allowed to control our borders just as he predicted that millions of eastern Europeans would have access to the UK. These weren’t racist statements but matters of fact under the EU rules as we have no opt out on who we let in and haven’t had for a very long time. Just as before, no one can predict how many Turkish people would come to the UK but if we stayed in the EU and Merkel & Juncker brought Turkey in, then how can we ensure the country has enough food, housing, education etc to cope with a large influx if it occurred.

      The only certainty is to leave the EU and then we control our borders and I’m glad this has triggered a change of heart for you.

  • Freddythreepwood

    Our own leaders are also doing a good job of swinging us towards Brexit. Osborne lied in his budget speech about the OBRs stance on the referendum. If our deputy prime minister finds it necessary to tell a blatant lie to support his case, one wonders whether he has a case at all.
    They continue to treat us like idiots. They seem to think we have no other means of ascertaining the facts- it’s as if the Internet had never been invented. I thought that once we entered the campaign, we would at last be told by our europhile politicians why it is they are so keen to stay in this club. I now realise it is their club – not ours. We are the dupes who are expected to pay the subscriptions.

  • Marvin

    I am convinced that one big reason that our dopey politicians who want to remain is, as they are career politicians and have absolutely no idea of the world and it’s peoples and cultures, also have no idea of how to conduct a deal or negotiate themselves out of a paper bag. They are totally content with being ruled by a crumbling club full of fools and objecting once in a while from the top table and being slapped down every time. They do not have the brains to run our country by themselves, so we need to find someone who can.

    • OmnipotentWizard

      Quite right Marvin – anyone you disagree with obviously doesn’t understand the issues and is mentally retarded.

      • Marvin

        After being privately educated and groomed to get to the top, and then having 30/50 dopes advising you, don’t you think that they should get one decent policy right? these are all phoney idiots in a tragedy.

        • OmnipotentWizard

          They have given us the wealthiest, healthiest & safest generation ever. Maybe that was an accident?

          • Adam Carter

            Is it politicians who have driven the advances that you mention?
            In my lifetime: is kit politicians who have made TVs, fridges, cars, overseas holidays etc. affordable?
            Is it politicians who have caused advances in technology, industrial and domestic, that have made our lives safer?
            Is it politicians who have brought about progress in drugs and medical and surgical techniques?
            In every case – No.
            It’s energetic entrepreneurs and the market system. It;’s not perfect, but it’s the best we’ve yet been able to discover or dfevelop.

          • OmnipotentWizard

            For these things to happen Adam you have to have the correct political climate. It is no coincident that these advances have been made in Capitalist Democracies. So yes – politicians did make these things happen.

          • WTF

            In spite of not because of !

          • OmnipotentWizard

            We do live in the most equal, wealthiest, healthiest and safest generation ever. That isn’t a coincidence – that is call a Capitalist Democracy.

          • WTF

            Yep, like when successive governments have raided my pension pot and decimated it, as I said in spite of not because of. Remember Gordon Brown who single handed destroyed the private sector pension pots !

          • OmnipotentWizard

            You are still a lot wealthier than your parents – you can’t argue against that.

            Well I guess you can but then I’ll take the P out of you mercilessly.

          • WTF

            Actually, there is one big difference. They were prudent and paid off their home by retirement and had two public sector pensions plus state pensions whilst I was prudent and paid off my home also but I don’t have the same security as them. I only have the state pension and a very vulnerable private pension pot. If Brown hadn’t stolen 50% of that, I’d be be somewhat better off.

            Are you suggesting that a public sector pension is worse than a meager pension pot. If you are, I’ll destroy your argument with facts and figures on what a public sector pension was worth to my parents as a capital amount compared to the much lesser pension pot I have.

            It wouldn’t surprise me to hear that your one of these free loaders getting a multitude of benefits, enjoy them while you can as its people like me who paid for your lifestyle and they might run out soon once the UK is over run by even more migrant free loaders and then the fun will begin.

          • OmnipotentWizard

            Probably to most telling sign of the staggering increase in wealth over a single generation is the length of time we spend in retirement. In 1960 men would retire at 65 and die at 70. Now most retire before 65 and die at 85. An almost five-fold increase in the time we can live off our pensions!!! So that rather disproves you point.

            “…UK is over run by even more migrant free loaders…” Another big Ooops.

            “The study by University College London said…immigrants from the European Economic Area had made a particularly positive contribution in the decade up to 2011, contributing 34% more in taxes than they received in benefits. Immigrants from outside the EEA contributed 2% more in taxes than they received in the same period, the report showed.” (BBC Online 5/12/2013)

          • WTF

            The problem with that survey is its missing costs and conflating EU & non EU migrants. Firstly, there’s far more unaccounted costs than these figures really show as they ONLY compare actual tax & NI receipts vs actual benefits that are paid out by the DWP. They do NOT factor in the extra costs of health care, education, infrastructure, translators, policing, increased capital costs all of which add to the tax burden but don’t appear in UCL costings. Lets not beat about the bush, we have probably 1-2 million unaccounted for immigrants who disappeared in the UK but due to lack of tracking and little is any inter agency co-operation of systems, we can only suggest that it must be costing many billions. I could extrapolate the estimated costs if necessary based on the missing migrants and average cost of these undocumented benefits.

            To understand the TRUE costs of immigration overall you have to go much deeper than that piece of propaganda published by the UCL. Whilst it claims that the EU immigrants contribute was 2 billion a year over a 10 year period, immigrants from outside of the EEA actually cost the country around 7 billion a year, a net loss of 5 billion a year overall and thats just the legal ones.

            Here’s some studies that actually bother to look at all aspects rather than just cherry pick stats to further their agenda.

            http://www.migrationobservatory.ox.ac.uk/briefings/fiscal-impact-immigration-uk

            http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/european-immigrants-contribute-5bn-to-uk-economy-but-non-eu-migrants-cost-118bn-9840170.html

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Ah yes, magical unaccounted costs, check.

            Yes, let’s see your hate nonsense and say “we”, as you cross borders… as you “suggest” hate against the Other.

            To understand the TRUE cost of your sort of hate preaching… as you blame him for your wizardly whining ways. Linking a propaganda website..

          • WTF

            Automatisms: The French psychiatrist De Clerambault
            believed that persecutory delusions should be considered reactions of an
            abnormal personality to automatisms. Automatisms are essentially
            actions or thoughts without conscious intention or unconscious
            processes. Check +

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Your issues are yours, but thanks for talking about them.

            You did not dispute my point.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Yea, you have the security of being rich, the horrors, the “vulnerable” cash in it’s pots… as you blame Brown for having to pay some tax ever.

            As you ignore changes to public sector pensions, check, and ignore your trust fund and other assets, right, as you whine at normal citizens using services as you claim your leeching pays for everything – as you blame the other and try for your “fun” purges and pogroms…as you cross borders freely yourself, hypocrite…

          • WTF

            The truly desperate sufferers of a persecution complex cultivate multiple complexes into an entire bundle
            wrapped up into deep seated psychosis. They can then use victim hood as a
            weapon against others.Ring any bells ?

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Ah yes, the people who you’ve driven to desperation with your persecution, as you scream your victims are all mad and magical cultivation theories, as you talk about head punches…

          • Dean Franklin

            garbage

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Ohnoes, you paid a little tax…as you “remember” propaganda, ignoring the fact he abused the corpse your beloved Maggie Thatcher made with her funding rules…

          • PaD

            theyve also given us Rotherham Oxford Towwer Hamlet Birmingham…oh and anjem choudary

          • WTF

            Anyone who has made it even modestly has done so by their own efforts, as for the down side, there’s more than enough of that they’ve brought down upon us all.

          • OmnipotentWizard

            “Anyone who has made it even modestly has done so by their own efforts,…” Which is only possible if the political system enables it. You are unlikely to “make it” in Russia or Venuezuela.

            “…as for the down side…” We live in the wealthiest, healthiest & safest generation ever.

          • WTF

            Whether the US, UK or Russia, its that top 2% who have 90% of a countries wealth.

          • OmnipotentWizard

            That doesn’t matter providing all sections of society are getting richer – and in the UK they are.

            Wizard Rule 40: People who spend their whole time coveting the wealth of others have no time to create wealth for themselves.

            And bear in mind inequality is not increasing.

            “…there was a rise in inequality in the 1980s, but every standard measure shows no rise since 1990. The top decile (the top 10 per cent of earners) has not raced away from the rest of pack. On the contrary, their share of income has declined slightly since 1990. There is, however, evidence that the top 1 per cent (and the top 0.1 per cent) have increased their share of income, but this has not come at the expense of the bottom 90 per cent: incomes have increased across the board. Despite the recession, average real incomes are twice as high as they were in 1977.” (iea website: Income inequality: the facts)

            The GINI coefficient is the internationally recognised measure of equality (wealth and income or normally measured separately). There is a good wikipedia article if you want to look at the UK’s equality trends.

          • WTF

            Perhaps you should widen your source of info before posting lies. Relying on wiki alone is lame. You’re a day late and a dollar short on your facts I’m afraid !

            http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/1ad5c43a-a593-11e5-a91e-162b86790c58.html

          • Marvin

            Naïve fools of life are easily fooled in return by bigger fools. Do you really think that these filthy rich Cretins know what they are doing? Silly question I suppose. AND! about aggression, there are some species on this planet that do not understand any other language.

          • OmnipotentWizard

            “Do you really think that these filthy rich Cretins know what they are doing?” As they have manifestly given us the wealthiest, healthiest & safest generation ever then I don;t really care.

            “Silly question I suppose.” Indeed it was.

          • Marvin

            Massive mass migration so millions can breed for all benefits, Millions on zero hour contracts, food banks on every high street, streets teeming with foreign criminals, terrorists, rapists and every piece of filth you don’t want to deport, human rights a charter for all above, and you are in heaven. Give me a break.

          • OmnipotentWizard

            “Massive mass migration so millions can breed for all benefits,” Big oops Marvin.
            “The study by University College London said…immigrants from the European Economic Area had made a particularly positive contribution in the decade up to 2011, contributing 34% more in taxes than they received in benefits. Immigrants from outside the EEA contributed 2% more in taxes than they received in the same period, the report showed.” (BBC Online 5/12/2013)

            “Millions on zero hour contracts,…” Bigger oops Marvin.
            “The Chartered Institute of Personnel and Development (CIPD), …, reported …3-4% of the workforce, work under the terms of a zero-hour contract…16% of those on zero-hours contracts felt they did not have an opportunity to work enough hours.” (Wikipedia)
            So by my Maths about one in every 200 of employed people are on contracts where they would like to work more hours – hardly a big problem considering that we are just coming out of a recession.

            “…food banks on every high street,…” Another big ooops. Only about a quarter of a million peopled used a foodbank during the year and then only once or twice according to the Trussel Trust.

            “….streets teeming with foreign criminals,..” Oh dear you are doing badly. Most categories of crime are down with violent crime at an all time low.

            You post goes downhill even further after that.

  • OmnipotentWizard

    As the migrant crisis will be largely over by the time of the vote then it looks like the UKIPpers will have lost their main argument for leaving.

    • WTF

      You wish, its not going anywhere and even if it quietens down a bit its still a valid concern.

      • OmnipotentWizard

        It is a valid concern but it will be far less of one in a few months. When people get into the polling booth their three main concerns will be: the economy, the economy & the economy.

        • WTF

          Not if there’s another major terrorist attack like Paris which has been threatened.

          • OmnipotentWizard

            UKIP may hope for that but you have to remember:

            “Bees and wasps have caused as many deaths in the UK as terrorism in the past decade, an independent watchdog has found…. Five people per year are killed by bee or wasp stings, the report said, exactly the same amount, on average, of terrorist actions in the past decade.” (Huffington Post 28/06/2012)

          • WTF

            And more people have died doing DIY but thats self induced whilst terrorism isn’t.

          • OmnipotentWizard

            Just putting the risks into contest for you. And you are at least five times more likely to be struck by lightening:

            “According to the tornado and storm research organisation (Torro) database, 30 to 60 people are struck by lightning each year, …” (Guardian 28/07/2014)

          • WTF

            The thing is, as an individual you can mitigate against risks such as tornadoes, being struck by lightning or DIY but as an individual you cant mitigate against some Jihadist trying to kill you unless you have concealed carry.

          • OmnipotentWizard

            I’m not sure how you can mitigate against tornadoes (but I guess you have a plan). As for being struck by lightening – I guess you could never leave home but that would also mitigate against terrorist attack.

          • WTF

            Easy, you don’t live in tornado alley or if you do, you keep your head down when one heads your way and don’t go out when there’s a thunder storm.

            Rather more difficult mitigating against the unknowns of Jihadist attacks as they could be on a plane (Shoe Bomber), in the shopping mall (Nairobi), a local street (Woolwich), A Marathon (Boston), a bar (Paris), a Disco (Bali), a football stadium (Almost Paris), Public transport (any city where there’s a Jihadist cell on the loose), A girls school (Nigeria), a Deli (Paris) and so on. I’m sure you get the picture, any everyday innocent pursuit can turn into a Islamic driven massacre and there’s zero you can do other than NOT go out at all to mitigate against it.

            The point being that I like most people, don’t go around dwelling on Islamic attacks that might happen as they are completely unpredictable, but if a tornado or thunderstorm is heading your way, you know something could happen before it does and take precautions.

          • OmnipotentWizard

            WTF – There are more tornadoes in the UK than the US (Stephen Fry told me that on QI so it must be right) and you have no idea where they will occur. As for Thunderstorms – what do you do if you are out and one occurs?

            I notice that most of your examples of terrorist attacks are not in the UK.

            More people die falling off toilets than in terrorist attacks in the UK. We are much safer here because we don’t do daft things like banning items of clothing.

            You will notice that the Pegida rally in the UK got 250 people who were outnumbered by the press – that makes me proud to be British.

          • WTF

            I don’t need some third rate self serving snob who thinks he’s humorous to tell me about Tornadoes as (a) My daughter lives in the mid west and (b) I live in the USA and yes, there are tornadoes in the UK but generally they are water spouts not your mid west variety. Perhaps if the UK had a weather service like the ‘NOAA’ they could warn people in plenty of time of potential hurricanes or tornadoes giving you plenty of time to take cover and they are pretty accurate.

            Its a shame the public can’t have a similar broadcast warning service called EUITA (European Union Islamic Terrorist Alert) to mitigate against terrorist attacks and we wouldn’t be having this debate. Of course, during the IRA bombing campaign at least they generally had the ‘decency’ of issuing a warning unlike these Islamic sc**bags Jihadists.

            Like I said, it doesn’t really matter what the relative risks of everyday activities are like driving, DIY, flying or even falling off toilets as we can mitigate against them. However, it is impossible to mitigate against the unpredictable nature of some Jihadist with a suicide vest who is out to kill anyone including his own but banning the full burka would certainly reduce the risks of Islamic terrorism which unsurprisingly is exactly why Turkey and other ISLAMIC states banned it. You do know that I presume ! As to what Pegida has got to do with your dumb posts I haven’t a clue unless its the usual lame attempts from the left to change the subject when losing the argument.

            In summary, you be careful getting off the loo in case you fall down it and keep your eyes open next time you go into a shopping mall and see suspicious looking individuals wearing strange apparel with unusual shaped bulges under it, and I don’t mean a pair of 44 DD’s !

          • OmnipotentWizard

            “…third rate self serving snob…” Oh dear – you don’t like having you prejudices challenged do you?

            “to mitigate against terrorist attacks like London, Paris or Madrid…” As I have shown the number of people killed in terrorist attacks in the UK is the same as deaths due to bee sting. Maybe we need UKBAA (UK Bee Attack Alert) as this would be just as useful as a terrorist alert system.

            Now the IRA – they really were a threat. The cold war – that really was dangerous. This lot of Islamic Terrorist – not a patch on them in the UK.

            “…IRA bombing campaign at least they generally had the ‘decency’ of issuing a warning…” So you are a terrorist apologist. I wonder if you think white paedos are less evil than Muslim paedos?

            “…it doesn’t really matter what the relative risks of everyday activities
            are like driving, DIY, flying or even falling off toilets as we can
            mitigate against them…” I’ve already shown you can’t mitigate against tornadoes and lightening. I wonder how you mitigate against toilet related injuries – maybe mandate all toilets have safety harnesses?

            “…what Pegida has got to do with your dumb posts…” The rejection of thier views by the general public mean that Muslims in the UK are more likely to cooperate with the authorities and less likely to be radicalised. You reap what you sow.

          • WTF

            The issue under discussion was mitigating against a possible risk to life and NOT the relative deaths between say falling off a toilet or being in a aircraft that comes down or a train crash. Nice try to change the direction but you’re very transparent in your lame attempts.

            Now, “The cold war – that really was dangerous.”, WOW. I lived right through that period and I never gave it a moments thought as if it happened, most of us would be gone in an instant, was ‘diddums’ sacred during the cold war was he ?

            Likewise with the IRA, they weren’t a serious threat to ‘civilians’ on the mainland despite blowing up my local pub near Woolwich barracks. Unlike poor Lee Rigby who was attacked out of the blue by a pair of jihadists just half mile from the pub the IRA blew up, no one died at that bombing as a warning was given. Clearly you’re clueless over risk assessment being scared sh**less” over the cold war and the IRA but quite happy for Jihadist to strike out of the blue with no motivation. You don’t get it, do you, this mitigation thing !

            Anyway I proved to you that with a early warning NOAA radio and a tornado shelter, you can mitigate against tornadoes and thousands of Americans in the mid west would prove you wrong. Clearly you’re not aware of it but for toilet or bath risk mitigation, there’s thriving industry in safety appliances or fittings to mitigate against older people falling in the bathroom and even with my pool. I fitted a hand rail for getting in and out more safely. You really are somewhat limited in your real world experiences aren’t you !

            In summary and on your last point, Muslims generally don’t even integrate in the west as they create their own Islamic Apartheid segregated areas akin to the Afrikaans in pre Mandela S. Africa. This has been the case from well before Pegida even surfaced in Europe let alone the UK so that kinda rejects your links between them and the issues Muslims have with the authorities. They don’t involve the authorities because they want to practice Sharia law in the west and they never warned the authorities their young teenagers were going on club Jihadi breaks to Syria although they did blame us all after it happened.

            They reaped what they sowed, they ostracize themselves from main stream society and practice alien law and culture so they can hardly complain about their self created apartheid.

          • OmnipotentWizard

            “The issue under discussion was mitigating against a possible risk to life and NOT the relative deaths…” Actually is was the fact that the risk is so very very small that it it isn’t worth bothering.

            “I lived right through that period and I never gave it a moments thought
            as if it happened, most of us would be gone in an instant,…” Actually that is a common misconception. Many would survive the initial attacks to die a horrible death from radiation poisoning.

            “…was ‘diddums’ sacred during the cold war was he ?” You do realise that being childish is not normally considered an acceptable debating technique.

            “Likewise with the IRA, they weren’t a serious threat to ‘civilians’…” Possibly the daftest thing you’ve said.
            17 July 1974 – An explosion in the Tower of London has left one person dead and 41 injured.
            30 October 1983 – Two bombs exploded in the London Underground, at Paddington (Praed Street) station (injuring 70 people) and Westminster Bridge station.

            …and many more.

            Stop being a terrorist apologist.

            “Anyway I proved to you that with a early warning NOAA radio and a tornado shelter, you can mitigate against tornadoes…” You didn’t prove it but I will accept it probably can. The reason we don’t bother with them is the risk (just like being caught in a terrorist attack) is so tiny.

            “Muslims generally don’t even integrate in the west…” Having done university liaison I can assure you that many Muslim’s are “weekend Muslims” – they are western at Uni and Muslim to please their parents. So like every other wave of immigrants we have ever had they integrate (and a good proportion become agnostics) after three or four generations.

            “…because they want to practice Sharia law in the west…” Any group of people can impose rules on the members of the club. If you are an RC then your church will want you no the practice contraception. No big deal.

            “….they ostracize themselves from main stream society…” I’n not sure who you think “they” are but I know plenty of Muslims that are doing “normal” things. I fact I know a lot of people who might be Muslims but I’ve never bothered to ask as it is unimportant.

          • WTF

            Sure, you may wish to disregard a risk because it is small BUT that doesn’t mean you can’t or shouldn’t mitigate against it. When producing aircraft parts for example you can say that the risk of a faulty pat being made is very small so we wont bother having quality assurance or testing, sure that one will fly, NOT (pun intended). Lets give up all security checks at airports and to use your words .” Actually is was the fact that the risk is so very very small that it it isn’t worth bothering.

            It may be that many would die a horrible death in a nuclear war but peoples perception like mine was you probably wouldn’t survive the initial attack living in say London for example. We’d all seen pictures of Hiroshima so we knew what could happen and just said C’est la vie !

            I have never apologized for IRA bombings but they did NOT deliberately carry out indiscriminate killing as Islamic Jihadists have. There was no be-heading of aid workers or shoppers, there was no massacres in shopping malls, there was no shoe bomber going to Belfast, there was no capture of school girls unlike Islamic terrorism.

            As for the rest of your BS, all I can say is Rotherham and many other cities where gang rape has been carried out by Muslim males, Muslim teenagers have gone on a Club Jihadi break, some Muslim infants have suffered FGM, some Muslim girls have been killed for fraternizing with non Muslims, a PEW poll on Sharia law puts 66% of UK Muslims wanting it introduced, I could go on but that’s the reality, not your cr** trying to air brush out truths.

            Where are the normal Muslims standing up and condemning 9-11, Rotherham, ISIS etc, in their Islamic Apartheid Enclaves I suspect as I don’t see them protesting in public !

            You’re the real archetypal terrorist apologist not me, as despite previous and on going atrocities carried out by some 5% of Muslims, you excuse their acts and never condemn them.

          • OmnipotentWizard

            “We’d all seen pictures of Hiroshima so we knew what could happen and just said C’est la vie !” You only saw the flat bit in pictures. Many people died a radiation poisoning over several decades. The figures were used to (incorrectly) estimate the death toll from Chernobyl.

            “…but they did NOT deliberately carry out indiscriminate killing…” Yes they did. The bomb planted in the Tower of London for example was in a tourist area and no warning was given.

            “…all I can say is Rotherham and many other cities where gang rape has been carried out by Muslim males…” Most of the paedo gangs are white. Here is an example:
            “Five men and a woman have been charged with 53 child sexual offences relating to the alleged exploitation of a number of girls in Sheffield…. Christopher Whiteley, 22,… Amanda Spencer, 24,… Matthew Whiteley, 23,… Shane Whiteley, 29,… Andre Francis-Edge, 24,… Taleb Bapir, 38,…” (Yahoo 12/03/2016)

            Here is another example:
            “A gang of paedophiles raped and abused a baby and a pre-school child in attacks that were live streamed over the internet, … They are Robin Hollyson, 30; Christopher Knight, 35; Adam Toms, 33; David Harsley, 51, and Matthew Lisk, 32.. John Denham, 49, and Matthew Stansfield, 34, …” (Yahoo 10/04/2015)

            “…a PEW poll on Sharia law puts 66% of UK Muslims wanting it introduced,…” So? I’d like hanging introduced but that won;t happen either.

            “Where are the normal Muslims standing up and condemning 9-11, Rotherham, ISIS etc,”
            “Community leaders in Portsmouth, Hampshire, have said they will take a united stand against anyone trying to radicalise young people from the city. “Support for the group which calls itself Islamic State or Caliphate is illegal, and utterly opposed to everything that those who follow the Islamic faith believe in.” (Yahoo 29/10/2014)

            Wizard Rule 73: If you don’t look then you won’t see.

            “You’re the real archetypal terrorist apologist not me,…” I just see the World as it is.

          • WTF

            Do any of your wizard rules include links to your stats or did you ‘conjure’ all this BS up yourself Mr. Wizard ! You’re no Harry Potter and more like a Wet Willy !

          • OmnipotentWizard

            “…did you ‘conjure’ all this BS up yourself” Every quote is attributed and checkable – and I have many more to shoot down the prejudices of people like you.

            The rules are mine and go from:
            Wizard Rule 1: God didn’t create religion; religion created God
            to
            Wizard Rule 82: Only rich people can afford principles.

            The fact the IRA only killed one person at the Tower wasn’t for the want of trying – and I was just using it as an example not to keep score. If you want to look at numbers then try Amargh with 31 dead and 220 injured.

            But you trying to play “the IRA are less evil than Muslims” game just shows the sort of person you are.

          • WTF

            Just like I conjured up the latest massacre by that religion of peace today in Brussels. You’re nothing but a PoS Jihadist apologist and the most EVIL entity on this planet in 2016 is a religion that promotes & encourages the indiscriminate death of many. I hope you rot in h*** for being one of its advocates.

            26 dead and dozens injured, there is no comparison between the terrorist deeds of Islamic Jihadists and earlier terrorist acts by others. Islamic terrorism has been waged for 1400 years, one year for every underage girl raped in Rotherham by Islamic pedophiles and you’re as sick as they are. I doubt you’ll be able to wave your wand and air brush out this latest atrocity by your mates. I pray that this latest atrocity sees some good come out from it and the authorities finally wake up and start off by banning hate cultures prior to deporting those who promote it.

            http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3503928/Two-explosions-heard-Brussels-Airport.html

            http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/brussels-airport-explosion-live-updates-american-airlines-departure-desk-zaventem-latest-a6945391.html

            http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/654528/Terrorism-fears-after-explosion-Brussels-airport

          • Leon Wolfeson

            “I have never apologized for IRA bombings”

            Then you do. Right. As you say your selective caring about crime… as you ignore the people who do speak out, as you blame people who do not share your hates and demand your thought crime, your terroristic thinking…

          • WTF

            fragmentary delusions – unconnected delusions not organized around a coherent theme. Check +

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Yes, your issues which you talk about…

            As you defend the IRA, over and over.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Ah yes, two mentally ill people…excuses for the IRA, check.

            You’re certainly trying to block any form of Muslim integration, I hear you, as people flock together for physical protection. “They”…You.

            As you make excuses for your hate, as you try and ostraciae people, as you bring your alien values, which lost in the last big war…as you promote your, plain and simple, apartheid…

          • WTF

            delusion of control – the delusion that one’s thoughts, feelings, and actions are not one’s own but are being imposed by someone else or some other external force. Check +

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Yes, you do keep checking off your issues, as you defend the IRA.

          • E.I.Cronin

            Jihad is an Islamic religous doctrine so your analogy is absurd and deliberately misleading. Ceasing immigration from OIC nations in all visa categories would be a practical way of stopping the spirally financial and social costs of terrorism.

          • E.I.Cronin

            Auto Reply No 891,662,207: That’s because of a multiple security agency industry costing the taxpayers billions per annum to monitor and conduct 24/7 surveillance on 3,000 Jihadis (in Britain alone). One of our devout Muslims, Abdul Bembrika, was planning mass casualties of 1,000 Australians by bombing the Melbourne AFL Grand Final. The RoP website lists 27,000+ and counting Islamist attacks throughout the world since 9/11. The body count is much higher than 5 – especially in nations that don’t have our lavish defence budgets.

          • OmnipotentWizard

            What to believe – what actually happens or what you read in the Daily Express? A difficult decision.

          • E.I.Cronin

            That’s not an answer it’s an evasion. The annual budgets for M15 and its related security agencies are available on government websites. The number of fundamentalist Muslims being monitored is a figure released by the police. And if you think the Huff Post is an unbiased, non-ideologically driven source of information you need to read more widely.

          • OmnipotentWizard

            You can only go by the facts and they are that more people die falling off toilets than in terrorist attacks – sorry.

          • E.I.Cronin

            Sorry you are demonstrably wrong. You need to do better. In the last 30 days there have been:

            1) 129 Jihadist attacks
            2) 988 people have been killed.
            3) 2091 people injured.
            4) 21 Suicide Bombings
            5) In 23 countries.

            http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/

            As I said before – the only reason Western nations do not have a similar body count is because of a highly sophisticated network of security agencies that require billions per annum to monitor jihadist subcultures.

          • OmnipotentWizard

            “Bees and wasps have caused as many deaths in the UK as terrorism in the…” You do know where the UK is don’t you?

          • E.I.Cronin

            You’re in a loop. No matter how many times the immense manpower and cost of policing Jihadis in your country is pointed out, you just keep repeating the same inane mantra.

          • E.I.Cronin

            FYI:

            ”Nor is it at all certain that Britain will continue to avoid another mass casualty attack. The Prime Minister recently said the security services had thwarted seven major attacks in the UK in the past six months alone.”

            Spectator UK, ‘Prime suspect for Paris attacks arrested in Molenbeek, terror capital of Europe’. 18 March 2016

          • OmnipotentWizard

            So? I’m sure something will happen at some time. Maybe next week and maybe in ten years time. It might be ISIS blowing up a train or Pediga blowing up a mosque. It is just the risk to any person is so very very small.

            Over the last ten years you had a one in 13 million chance of being killed in a terrorist attack.

          • E.I.Cronin

            So you think an Islamic religous movement that advocates Jihad is acceptable because to date, the security forces have apprehended all major attacks (London excepting)? And what happens when the police can no longer monitor and apprehend attacks? What happens as numbers increase through birthrates; legal and illegal immigration and attacks become frequent? The risk percentages rise in nations with large Muslim populations. That’s insane. You are quite literally insane to think that is an acceptable legacy for the next generation of British men and women. Mad and blind.

          • OmnipotentWizard

            “…Islamic religous movement that advocates Jihad is acceptable because to
            date, the security forces have apprehended all major attacks…” Because….waits for penny to drop…there are fewer radicals in the UK and the local Muslims are more likely to support the authorities.

            “What happens as numbers increase through birthrates;…” All immigrant waves have seen birthrates fall to UK norms with three generations. Many offspring will become effectively agnostic by the third generation.

            “The risk percentages rise in nations with large Muslim populations. ” That hardly matters as Muslims tend to be peaceful. Indeed to increase will act as a break on people who try to radicalise the youth.

          • E.I.Cronin

            1) No, Anne Marie Waters noted in her article on Rotherham that Muslims knew about the child sexual exploitation gangs but decided it was unacceptable to go to Western authorities. Also the Pew Global Surveys from 2006 – 2013 show between 15% – 27% of British/French/Dutch Muslims believe suicide bombings are justified. You think that percentage are going to the cops?
            2) You’ve deliberately left out legal and refugee intakes – plus family re-unions. So the birth rates even in those 3 generations guarantee an increase in potential radicals.
            3) Wrong. Ruud Koopmans 2014 WZB Berlin study showed an INCREASE in outsider intolerance amongst younger Muslims with higher percentages of those supporting Sharia. This is the real problem, a minority wage Jihad, but a majority support Sharia.

          • OmnipotentWizard

            1) Most child exploitation gangs are white and many people knew of their operation and did nothing. Here is a typical example:

            A gang of paedophiles, described as “evil beyond rational understanding”, has been sentenced to a total of 107 years, with a minimum of 78 years in prison. Robin Hollyson, 30, from Bedfordshire, Christopher Knight, 35, from Manchester, Adam Toms, 33, from Somerset, Matthew Standfield, 34, from Hampshire, John Denham, 50, from Wiltshire, David Harsley, 51, from Hull and Matthew Lisk, 32, from East Sussex were convicted of more than 30 charges between them. The offences included rape, sexual assault, conspiracy to rape, conspiracy to sexually assault a child under 13 and making and sharing indecent images of children. Three of the men – Hollyson, Toms and Knight all admitted to raping a baby. (SkyNews 11/09/2015)

            2) “So the birth rates even in those 3 generations guarantee an increase in potential radicals.” Hardly as most people are westernised by the third generation. If anything it will increase the number of people who oppose radicalisation.

            3) “Ruud Koopmans 2014 WZB Berlin study showed an INCREASE in outsider intolerance amongst younger Muslims with higher percentages of those supporting Sharia.” That is Germany. There you get thousands of people supporting Pegida and putting pressure on minorities. This is the UK where the press outnumber Pegida and they are ridiculed by the media and social media. You reap what you sow. It makes you proud to be British

          • E.I.Cronin

            1) Rotherham was estimated at 1,400 targeted exclusively because they were white – and the added horror of it was the council employees didn’t pursue the complaints because of ‘cultural diversity’ and bogus ‘anti-racist’ ideology. In their moral degeneracy they placed a chimerical ‘community cohesion’ before the savage, repeated abuse of girls. I just realised – you are one of these people. You excuse, rationalise and tacitly permit Jihad, Sharia and CSE.

            Of course CSE is an evil that occurs across all demographics – the UK is still what, 80% white? BTW – Sharia courts have issued fatwas stating that a girl is ready for the ‘responsibilities of adulthood’ after reaching menstruation. Recently the government of Pakistan refused to move the age of consent to 16 as it was against Sharia. So there is a religiously mandated culture of what is, in the West, underage s. * x.

            2) You’re fantasising. I can’t see much evidence of Westernisation. The Burka, Niqab and Hijab are common. 22% of Muslim women are unable to speak English. Cameron even launched a programme over the issue. Self-segregating-policing communities and colleges are forming. London is now majority ethnic and increasingly nothing like England. This process is happening across every Western nation that has put on the suicide vest of mass migration and Multiculturalism.

            3) Until a similar study is done in the UK we won’t know percentages, but I have no doubts radicalisation and fundamentalism has very similar rates in the UK. Your country has introduced the PREVENT strategy because of extremism in universities. Check out the footage on ‘WITH OPEN GATES’ video on youtube to see hate preachers in European mosques. I suggest you look at it because the footage hasn’t been carefully selected by BBC and Guardian editors to milk gullible sentiment. The migrants are pressuring indigenous Germans. Particularly women. You haven’t answered this issue because you can’t. Because the bottom line is – you accept rape, sexual assault and crime as an acceptable loss for cultural diversity.

          • OmnipotentWizard

            “Rotherham was estimated at 1,400 targeted exclusively because they were white…” Now you have put two things together that are not connected (your could be a Daily Express journalist with this level of creativity). I has been claimed the 1400 may have been involved and separately some may have been targeted for being white.

            “…and the added horror of it was the council employees didn’t pursue the complaints because of ‘cultural diversity’ …” Again cause and effect is incorrect. Lots of the paedo rings (most of which are white) were not pursued during the same period.

            “…the savage, repeated abuse of girls. …” By gangs of all colours and religions.

            “I can’t see much evidence of Westernisation. ” That is because Westernised Muslims are ….waits for penny to drop….indistinguishable from everyone else.

            “The Burka, Niqab and Hijab are common. ” This is a normal BNP trick of linking things that do happen (Muslims covering the hair) with things that are very very rare (like full body and face covering).

            “Self-segregating-policing communities and colleges are forming. ” Having done university liaison work in the past I can tell you that most Muslims are “weekend Muslims”. Westernised at Uni and Muslim at home to please their parents.

            “London is now majority ethnic…” Define ethnic. If I’m black and yet fifth generation am I ethnic? If I’m mixed race am I ethnic?

            “This process is happening across every Western nation…” Of course it is!!! As races interbred then we are all slowly becoming one race. Do’h!!!

            “Western nation that has put on the suicide vest of mass migration…” Very emotive. Which website did you read that from?

            “… and Multiculturalism.” This fades naturally and we are left with a Multiracial & Agnostic society.

            “Until a similar study is done in the UK we won’t know percentages, …” By similar to you mean by people who are biased.

            “Check out the footage on ‘WITH OPEN GATES’ ” I tend to only get my information from unbiased sources. That is just the way I am.

            “…the footage hasn’t been carefully selected by BBC and Guardian editors to milk gullible sentiment.” So anyone that doesn’t agree with you is gullible?

            “You haven’t answered this issue because you can’t. ” I’m not sure what issue you think I haven’t answered.

            “…the bottom line is – you accept rape, sexual assault and crime as an acceptable loss for cultural diversity.” Putting words into someone elses mouth is a bit childish don’t you think?

          • OmnipotentWizard

            “Rotherham was estimated at 1,400 targeted exclusively because they were white…” Now you have put two things together that are not connected (your could be a Daily Express journalist with this level of creativity). I has been claimed the 1400 may have been involved and separately some may have been targeted for being white.

            “…and the added horror of it was the council employees didn’t pursue the complaints because of ‘cultural diversity’ …” Again cause and effect is incorrect. Lots of the paedo rings (most of which are white) were not pursued during the same period.

            “…the savage, repeated abuse of girls. …” By gangs of all colours and religions.

            “I can’t see much evidence of Westernisation. ” That is because Westernised Muslims are ….waits for penny to drop….indistinguishable from everyone else.

            “The Burka, Niqab and Hijab are common. ” This is a normal BNP trick of linking things that do happen (Muslims covering the hair) with things that are very very rare (like full body and face covering).

            “Self-segregating-policing communities and colleges are forming. ” Having done university liaison work in the past I can tell you that most Muslims are “weekend Muslims”. Westernised at Uni and Muslim at home to please their parents.

            “London is now majority ethnic…” Define ethnic. If I’m black and yet fifth generation am I ethnic? If I’m mixed race am I ethnic?

            “This process is happening across every Western nation…” Of course it is!!! As races interbred then we are all slowly becoming one race. Do’h!!!

            “Western nation that has put on the suicide vest of mass migration…” Very emotive. Which website did you read that from?

            “… and Multiculturalism.” This fades naturally and we are left with a Multiracial & Agnostic society.

            “Until a similar study is done in the UK we won’t know percentages, …” By similar to you mean by people who are biased.

            “Check out the footage on ‘WITH OPEN GATES’ ” I tend to only get my information from unbiased sources. That is just the way I am.

            “…the footage hasn’t been carefully selected by BBC and Guardian editors to milk gullible sentiment.” So anyone that doesn’t agree with you is gullible?

            “You haven’t answered this issue because you can’t. ” I’m not sure what issue you think I haven’t answered.

            “…the bottom line is – you accept rape, sexual assault and crime as an acceptable loss for cultural diversity.” Putting words into someone elses mouth is a bit childish don’t you think?

          • E.I.Cronin

            1) Read the Jay Report and Anne Marie Waters research article on Rotherham. The girls were all white. And the crucial point you’re evading yet again is that one woman who brought cse cases to the council was even warned about racism and sent on a cultural diversity awareness course. There were many instances of this profoundly immoral evasion. I’m not surprised at all your unwilling to admit it. And yes, from the continual false equivalences you draw, the ommisions, the rationalisations, the defense of the indefensible, I really do believe you would commit the same immoral evasion.

            Will respond to your others points later. But let me finish with a quotation from a young Muslim man, in an official Govt multculrural document: ”Some of them, the more literal imams, say do not touch them (western people), do not look at them or speak with them. Then you will make the mistake of being like them. That is the problem. They are not preaching integration”. The Quran explicitly teaches segregation between Muslims and Non-Muslims in at least 13 Suras. And you still haven’t responded to the fact of the Prevent strategy being implemented after Rigby. The fact the Home Secretary deemed it necessary to fund an initiative combatting extremism amongst univeristies points to an alarming failure of integration.

            Yes, you’re definitely an apologist for Jihad, Sharia and CSE.

          • OmnipotentWizard

            “Read the Jay Report and Anne Marie Water…” You might be able to pull that one on more naive people but don’t try it on me. I’ve read the Jay report and the conclusions were “… many of the known perpetrators were of Pakistani heritage” and “…denial of severity which was to an extent the responsibility of Councillors…” So extending that to 1400 were all targeted by Pakistani and all because they were white and the council turned a blind eye to it all is typical BNP exaggeration.

            But much much more importantly, concentrating of Rotherham and ignoring all the other paedos (who are mostly white) shamefully lets down most of the victim. Why do you think these poor children are less deserving of our sympathy because their abusers are not Muslims?

            Anne Marie Water is a member of Pegida. Reading an article written by her and assuming it is a fair assessment would be the equivalent to believing what Hitler wrote in Mein kampf. I have read Mein Kampf as well and it is quite an easy read but you realise that he is paranoid by about the third paragraph.

            “You shall have your religion and I shall have my religion.” (Koran 109.6 The Disbelievers)

            “The Quran explicitly teaches segregation between Muslims and Non-Muslims in at least 13 Suras.”

            And the Bible teaches that you should kill non-believers:
            “And they entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and with all their soul, but that whoever would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, should be put to death, whether young or old, man or woman.” (Chronicles 15:12-13)

            All extreme movements (ISIS, BNP, Pegida, etc) are made up of two types of people:

            Dupe: They really believe that Islam is evil/wonderful. These people tend to have low intelligence. They have low self-esteem and are susceptible to flattery from the second type of person. These are the foot soldiers who commit the violence and get themselves killed.

            Agent Provocateur: They know that Islam is just a religion like any other but they like to cause trouble because it makes them feel important. These people are intelligent but have a character flaw. They will sit at home while the others commit acts of violence.

            Which are you?

          • E.I.Cronin

            You really are a devious liar. ”1400 were all targeted by Pakistani (Muslims) and all because they were white and the council turned a blind eye” is exactly what happened.

            From the All-Party Parliamentary Select Committee report in June 2013 in response to the Jay Report:

            Nevertheless, the perception, that grooming perpetrators are largely of Asian, British Asian or Muslim origin colours the attitudes of those working in the field, as well as the media and the wider public. Ann Cryer, the former MP for Keighley, who raised concerns about localised grooming in her constituency as long ago as 2003, faced a backlash when she described the offenders as Asian and pointed to the fact that most of them came from the Mirpur district of Kashmir (a description which she still stands by). She suggested that underlying cultural attitudes might be a factor in the offending.

            Kris Hopkins MP, the current Member for Keighley, also spoke of the reaction that Ann Cryer received and supported her view that a fear of being labelled ‘racist’ had hindered the ability of official agencies to combat the grooming and sexual exploitation. Lots of the people in that community dismissed Ann’s comments and saw them as inflammatory rather than as challenging and helpful. Many people believed another injustice was being done to the community by the fact that Ann kept raising the issue. The victimhood that ran through the community gave an excuse for not facing up to the problem. I went to lots of public events to discuss the issue, but all I heard was that Ann’s constant comments undermined the community. The community failed to face up to the core issues that Ann was putting out there. The reality is that the problem has not gone away. Ann Cryer was right. Since that time, many more children have been abused because of the failures of the agencies and of the communities to address what was happening.

          • OmnipotentWizard

            “…”1400 were all targeted by Pakistani (Muslims) and all because they
            were white and the council turned a blind eye” is exactly what
            happened.” Just because you say something that doesn’t make it true – you understand how that works EI?

            Your excerpt from the Jay report also doesn’t support your assertion that they were all abused by Pakistanis and were all targeted for being white. Rather it says there was some pushback of the “don’t rock the boat” kind and that agencies failed.

            Now let us look at what has just been reported in Lambeth today. It looks very similar to Rotherham and a number of 600 victims is being suggested. The good news for you is that some of the paedos will be non-While and some will be Muslims. The bad news for you is that most of the paedos will be white.

            The try and concentrate of Muslims because (well you know the reason) shamefully lets down all the other victims. Victims of people like: Mick Philpott, Ian Brady, Ian Huntley, Jimmy
            Savile, Fred & Rose West, Nilson, Mary
            Bell, Mark Bridger,
            Peter Sutcliffe, Steve Wright, Colin Ireland, Stuart Hall, Cyril Smith, Will Cornick, Dale Bolinger, Stuart Hazell, William
            Vahey, Peter Tobin, Ray Teret, Robert Ewing, Trevor Monk, Fred Talbot, Adam
            Johnson… the list of these terrible Muslims just goes on and on.

          • E.I.Cronin

            ”Why do you think these poor children are less deserving of our sympathy because their abusers are not Muslims?”. At no point have I ever suggested this. Having been sexually abused myself I would never withhold my compassion for a victim.

            Nice try. A crude attempt to turn the tables because I’ve called you out as a cultural diversity extremist who would willingly obstruct justice in exactly the same way as the Labour Rotherham Council did.

          • OmnipotentWizard

            Why do you keep going on about Muslims as the majority of abusers are while males? Are you going to avoid that question I wonder?

          • E.I.Cronin

            OK so rather than Dupe or Agent Provocatuer you’re just Devious. For the last time the point you cannot bring yourself to publicly acknowledge is the reports of Pakistani Muslim grooming rings were buried because of bogus ‘anti-racist’ ideology and pc hypocrisy.

            I’m not wasting any further time. But in closing I will say this – the greatest victims of Jihad and Sharia are Muslims. By resorting to all these strawmen, false equivalences and devious smear tactics in the West you are betraying the progressive & genuinely liberal Muslim citizens and activists throughout the Muslim world who are struggling for reform. By pretending that Islam does not contain intolerant and violent ideology you are abandoning the secularists, women and children in the Islamic world who are suffering oppression and abuse. In lying to yourself and the British public you tacitly support the Islamic reactionaries who represent the antithesis of the values you allegedly want to defend.

            Your next reply will be a banal, repetitive irrelevancy. But sooner or later you will have to observe reality.

          • OmnipotentWizard

            “…you cannot bring yourself to publicly acknowledge is the reports of Pakistani Muslim grooming rings…” Yes I can. There were a few and the Agent Provocateurs are doing their best to big it up. The shamefulness of this is that it misses the point that this problem is a national one.

            “I’m not wasting any further time. …” So you are avoiding my question then? Now ask yourself why.

            Here are a couple of incidents for you to consider:
            “A gang of paedophiles, described as “evil beyond rational understanding”, has been sentenced to a total of 107 years, with a minimumof 78 years in prison. Robin Hollyson, 30, from Bedfordshire, Christopher Knight, 35, from Manchester, Adam Toms, 33, from Somerset, Matthew Standfield, 34, from Hampshire, John Denham, 50, from Wiltshire, David Harsley, 51, from Hull and Matthew Lisk, 32, from East Sussex were convicted of more than 30 charges between them. The offences included rape, sexual assault, conspiracy to rape, conspiracy to sexually assault a child under 13 and making and sharing indecent images of children. Three of the men – Hollyson, Toms and Knight all admitted to raping a baby.” (SkyNews 11/09/2015)

            AND

            “Sexual abuse was rampant at a children’s home in Northern Ireland run by a Catholic order of brothers, a former senior police officer has said….Between 1951 and 1985 around 1,000 children stayed at Rubane,
            near Kircubbin on the Ards Peninsula. Abuse of around a fifth of residents
            ranged from (nasty details deleted)” (Yahoo 29/09/2014)

            Welcome to the real World and try not to let down all those victims of abuse in future.

          • E.I.Cronin

            I’m not surprised you keep wriggling and deflecting.

            People like you – cultural diversity extremists and Islamist apologists – deliberately buried reports of shocking, repeated CSE committed by Pakistani Muslim grooming gangs not only in Rotherham, but in other towns across the Midlands.

            That is my main point.

            I’m not talking about the issue of CSE in other organisations – YOU ARE simply because Rotherham exposes your grotesque, morally reprehensible double standards and you automatically shift to other cases in a blatant attempt to minimise the damage apologists and diversity advocates have done.

            Alexis Jay: ”examples of “children who had been doused in petrol and threatened with being set alight, threatened with guns, made to witness brutally-violent rapes and threatened they would be next if they told anyone”.

            and:

            “They were raped by multiple perpetrators, trafficked to other towns and cities in the north of England, abducted, beaten and intimidated.”

            CSE in Christian Churches has received global coverage and resulted in a massive number of law suits against the Catholic Church in particular. Benedict in particular received sustained global criticism for his handling of the cases and the Church’s refusal to place secular law before Canon law. And that is exactly as it should be. The Churches have come to terms with CSE – but if the Jay Report had not blown the lid off the cover up in Rotherham, people like you would continue to dissimulate and deflect.

            I’ll finish with select quotations:

            “During my final months at Rotherham Metropolitan Borough Council I was subjected to intense personal hostility and intimidation, not just from Rotherham Metropolitan Borough Council, but also South Yorkshire Police. There is no doubt in my mind that I was placed under pressure to change and present my findings in a way that presented services in Rotherham in a better light”.

            In a BBC Panorama documentary that followed the publication of the Jay Report, the researcher said that having told Council officials that the majority of the perpetrators came from the town’s Pakistani community, she was told: “You must never refer to that again, you must never refer to Asian men”. She went on: “her other response was to book me on a two-day ethnicity and diversity course to raise my awareness of ethnic issues”.

            Furthermore, she claimed that the data she had collected inexplicably went missing: “they’d gained access to the office and they had taken my data, so out of the number of filing cabinets, there was one drawer emptied and it was emptied of my data. It had to be an employee of the council”.

            Evidence that ethnicity played a part in the alleged Rotherham cover-up was also included in the report of Professor Jay, who wrote: “Several councillors interviewed believed that by opening up these issues they could be ‘giving oxygen’ to racist perspectives that might in turn attract extremist political groups and threaten community cohesion.”

            Welcome to your world of hypocrisy and politicised abuse.

          • E.I.Cronin

            Ah so Anne Marie Waters is Hitler is she?… may I remind you of a recent post you made where you criticised someone for attacking the source of the information as ‘playing the man not the ball?”.
            Your hypocrisy is showing again. According to Bill Warner’s Politcial Islam site Islamic Scriptures contain a higher percentage of anti-Semitism than Mein Kampf. So who is the anti-Semite?

          • OmnipotentWizard

            “…so Anne Marie Waters is Hitler is she?…” Don’t you think putting words into someone elses mouth just so you can criticise them for saying something they didn’t is a little childish?

            “I remind you of a recent post you made where you criticised someone for
            attacking the source of the information …’. It is a good point and possibly the first one you’ve made. However I do think it is fair to point out any bias the source might have. In general I would not believe anything from pressure groups, political parties, religions, unions or charities.

            “According to Bill Warner’s Politcial Islam site Islamic Scriptures
            contain a higher percentage of anti-Semitism than Mein Kampf. ” The fact he’s even bother to make such a pointless comparison (whether he is right or wrong) probably says quite a lot about his bias.

          • E.I.Cronin

            Q 8:39: And fight with them till there is no more fitna (disbelief) and religion is all for Allah.
            Q 9:29 Fight those who believe not in Allah… until they pay the J.i. z. y. a with willing submission and feel themselves subdued.
            Q 9:73 O Prophet strive hard against the unbelievers and hypocrites and be unyielding against them, their abode is h*.ll. and evil is their destination.
            Q 8:12 I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefor strike off their necks and strike off every fingertip of them.
            There are hundreds more…
            Dupe, Dumb or Agent Provocatuer… which are you?

          • OmnipotentWizard

            So – you can cut-and-post from THOSE websites. Here is a few from the Bible:

            “So we boiled my son, and did eat him: and I said unto her on the next day, Give thy son, that we may eat him: and she hath hid her son.” 2 Kings 6:29

            “When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again.” Exodus 21:7-11

            “If two men, a man and his countryman, are struggling together, and the wife of one comes near to deliver her husband from the hand of the one who is striking him, and puts out her hand and seizes his genitals, then you shall cut off her hand; you shall not show pity.” Deuteronomy 25:11-12

          • E.I.Cronin

            Another despicable lie intended to smear and obstruct any rational criticism of Multicultural Policy and Mass immigration. BNP, PEGIDA have not, and never will commit any of the atrocities committed by IS or any of the Islamic extremist groups waging Jihad across the globe.

            Btw I’m not a member of either but I admire Anne Marie Waters as a great activist for women’s rights, western civilisation and genuine tolerance and peace. Her tireless work is a testament to her intelligence and integrity.

          • OmnipotentWizard

            BNP & PEGIDA are mainly the Agent Provocateurs. They wind up others in the hope that something with give in the way of violent by and against Muslims. The Dupes are people like Anders Breivik, Michael Barton, Paul Taylor, etc.

            Luckily the UK public are not easily fooled. The recent Pegida rally was so small that the protesters were outnumbered by the media. Also the reporting in the general media and the respose on social media was to ridicule them and that made me proud to be British.

          • E.I.Cronin

            And that’s not to mention the loss of social capital. The death of cohesion, the breakdown of neighbourhood co-operation, the spread of mistrust and fear. Well. I hope you live to see the bitter fruits of your apathy.

            Nice try. Pegida are peaceful. They aren’t conducting mass sexual assaults either.

          • OmnipotentWizard

            “And that’s not to mention the loss of social capital. The death of
            cohesion, the breakdown of neighbourhood co-operation, the spread of
            mistrust and fear” It is probably best not to mention things that aren’t happening.

            “Well. I hope you live to see the bitter fruits of your apathy.” I shall certainly live to see the mainstreaming and acceptance of Muslims.

            There have never been more Muslims in the UK and violent crime is at an all time low. I wonder if these facts are related?

            “Pegida are peaceful.” Has your nose grown a little?

            “They aren’t conducting mass sexual assaults either.” Neither are UK Muslims.

          • E.I.Cronin

            You can lie to yourself but not to me. Tower Hamlets. Luton. Trojan Horse Schools. Rotherham, Oxford and all the other towns where local Labour councillors were indicted. Vote fraud. Salafist preachers in mosques – all these are well documented and you know it Pinochio. And just look across the Channel at Sweden and Germany… ‘mainstreaming and acceptance’ going well there is it? Good luck with that. You’re being replaced and too dim to notice, unless you’re Muslim yourself. What’s most apparent is you simply dont care about the social and financial costs of mass migration as long as someone else pays for it.

          • WTF

            Plenty of facts here, above and below, you should read them as you can’t ‘magic’ them away with a limp wand !

          • OmnipotentWizard

            It is just a matter of risk WTF. There have been more deaths in Belgium but in the overall scheme of things the risk is still low and the solutions preferred by people like you only make things worse.

          • WTF

            Its sad but its just taken the death of 26 people and the injuries of dozens in Brussels to prove you can’t mitigate against the evils of Islamic terrorism or PoS supporters like yourself !

          • WTF

            Have we gone into hiding this morning you PoS ?

            Isn’t your wand working ?

            Trying to dream up another lame Wizard Rule ?

            The best place for your wand is where the sun don’t shine but its so limp you’d never get it up there !

          • E.I.Cronin

            Ps you’re not averse to ‘Playing the Man not the Ball’ yourself 🙂 see ur reply to Pad. Hello Hypocrisy.

          • OmnipotentWizard

            Wizard Rule 49: Rules only exist to make you think twice before breaking them (excluding this rule).

          • WTF

            Methinks your ‘wand’ is as limp as your d*** and just as useless !

          • OmnipotentWizard

            Methinks you mistake being rude for being rational.

          • WTF

            You’re the one playing infantile games about wizardry, at least HP was entertaining, you most certainly aren’t !

          • WTF

            What to believe, indeed !

            The authenticated list of Islamic terrorist attacks from 1968 until 9-11 (2001) runs into hundreds as documented here, and that’s just in the west.

            http://www.inquiryintoislam.com/2015/02/chronological-list-of-islamic-terrorist.html

            Even better is the list of attacks from 1801-2015 which lists 7581 terrorist attacks by Islamic terrorists and confirmed by the FBI and other sources.

            https://www.facebook.com/notes/anna-tomerlin/islamic-jihadist-muslim-terrorist-attacks-on-us-1801-2015/135450889824819/

            Then we have their civil wars, genocides and many other atrocities like the 1 million Armenians killed in the early 20th century or the Yahzidis and Christians in the ME recently that adds to Islams carnage carnage. All verifiable and very well documented in case you doubt it.

          • OmnipotentWizard

            Only naive people will use pressure groups to try to make a point. I wonder why anyone would specifically setup a site to list attacks by people claiming to belong to Islam. Why haven’t they included attacks by Christians, what about the IRA, what about racist attacks in the US and UK, what about Cambodia & Rwanda?

            Are those attackers less evil because they aren’t Muslims? What possible motive could the authors of that website have?

            Why haven’t they included this for example:
            “Maronite Christian militias perpetrated the Karantina and Tel al-Zaatar massacres of Palestinians and Lebanese Muslims during Lebanon’s 1975–1990 civil war. The 1982 Sabra and Shatila massacre, which targeted unarmed Palestinian refugees for rape and murder, was considered to be genocide by the United Nations General Assembly.A British photographer present during the incident said that “People who committed the acts of murder that I saw that day were wearing [crucifixes] and were calling themselves Christians.” (Wikipedia)

          • PaD

            To support Cultural Marxism quote Huffington Post.

            ” ” National Socialism quote Mein Kampf

          • OmnipotentWizard

            “To support Cultural Marxism quote Huffington Post.”
            Wizard Rule 77a: People that are losing an argument will often try to discredit the source of the information they are arguing against. (In football this tactic is known as “Playing The Man”)

        • WTF

          Wow, I must be clairvoyant and I thought Wizards could predict the future, but no, I don’t really claim to be able to see the future in the EU.

          The economy is only one small part of the equation and sadly events like the terrorist attack that happened this morning in Brussels was on the cards and even the security people knew it was when and not if. It doesn’t take a knowledge of rocket science or even a wizards limp wand to predict that open borders & Mad Merkel Migrant policies would end in tears more than once across Europe and they’ll be more before the referendum.

          So much for Wizard rules, more like Wizard s*** !

    • Marvin

      Dumbo thinks this cancer will stop flooding Europe.

      • OmnipotentWizard

        Wizard Rule 68: Aggression is often used to mask a weak argument.

        • WTF

          And government controls are also used to censor free speech.

          • OmnipotentWizard

            Quite right WTF – that is why I only imagined I read your posts.

        • WTF

          But head up butt like you will never see it coming until its too late !

    • Discuscutter

      The EU was in crisis for years before the migrant crisis, its ultimate flaw is the Euro and the damage that it has done to much of the continent, even the North of it.

      As for the migrant crisis ending, it is only starting.

      If Europe took in 10 million a year it would not dent the flow.

      • OmnipotentWizard

        “The EU was in crisis for years before the migrant crisis,…” …and that is why it has three of the most successful economies in the World and has the World’s largest GDP.

        “As for the migrant crisis ending, it is only starting.” Now the fighting in Syria is less the number have already started to fall.

        Sorry.

        • WTF

          All rather irrelevant when the EU becomes the Jihadist stronghold in the west ! Wake up you d***head !

          • OmnipotentWizard

            Very rude – didn’t you like your argument being crushed WTF?

    • Chris

      Not quite the full shilling are we?

      • WTF

        Not since the Brussels massacre today, he’s crawled under his rock and is in hiding. He knows full well that by the time of the June referendum attitudes will harden to leave and his pooping his diapers.

        • OmnipotentWizard

          I’m here. You insult anyone you disagree with, Normal day.

      • OmnipotentWizard

        Up to the normal standard of the UKIPpers I see – has no answer so just insults.

  • Lady Magdalene

    Dr Richard North has produced a shorter version of Flexcit, available here:

    http://eureferendum.com/

    He proposes a staged withdrawal from the EU which will protect our access to the Single Market in the short term whilst negotiations for the longer-term are carried out.

    There is no reason to fear Brexit. The EU needs to trade with us even more than we need to continue trading with the EU.

    • WTF

      Clearly German car manufacturers want stability on Brexit as much as we would so Flexcit would be the most likely scenario, whats to worry about. Do the usual knuckle dragging remainers believe that BMW, VW or Merc are unconcerned about possible tariff wars started off by Brussels ?

  • WTF

    More worrying is the usage of the term ‘illegal immigrant’ which has now been replaced by ‘irregular immigrant’ before it changes yet again to ‘Merkels Undocumented Voter’ !

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/eu-turkey-refugee-deal-what-is-it-erdogan-a6939156.html

  • Fritz123

    You want a strong EU. Isnt that the contrary of what the Brexits say? The Geneva law and the refugees, the so called, the business of delegitimisation. IMHO the Brexits were those who said: One and one is two. But it all may be about feelings and this is ok too.

  • Allyup

    Western destabilisation in Arab countries adds to the very large numbers in the world who want to immigrate to the EU. In many other countries the attractions are of pay that is up to 10 or more times more than local, free health services, and social benefits that are many times greater than incomes at home as well as free housing.

    Turkey is a poor country of 80 million so assuming accession is granted (as is stated) then there will be tens of millions moving to the “rich” (i.e. the ever more heavily indebted) northern EU countries.
    Mass immigration will not create economic growth as most are the uneducated poor looking for much higher pay for unskilled work.

    The well paid business of delivering people into the EU will not stop because of a deal between the EU and Turkey. New routes will be found. Schengen has created a massive largely unprotected single border.

    Mass immigration drives dissension because newcomers have very different values, customs and cultures. In the case of the UK a good percentage of pro-BREXIT votes will be based of hating mass immigration which is the future of the EU.
    The liberal elite who determine EU policies are unconcerned about mass immigration because they do not see these differences as important.
    It remains to be seen whether of not the EU can survive under this pressure.

  • Discuscutter

    There are so many individual crises in the EU that could swing Brexit that no one can predict.

    • WTF

      And most of them will add to Brexit.

  • Snetts

    Yeah, Canada is in a state of flux right now but it not as if we haven’t been here before. This is my third time experiencing this. We recover all lost ground every time. Now that the economy is global, GB can survive quite well as trading partner with the world.

  • Nephthys

    Shake Hands with the Devil, not Shout at the Devil. Paragraph 4.

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