Lead book review

The swastika was always in plain sight

24 October 2015

9:00 AM

24 October 2015

9:00 AM

In 1940, when Stephen Spender heard a German bomber diving down towards London, he calmed himself by imagining that there were no houses, and that the bomber was ‘gyring and diving over an empty plain covered in darkness’. The image consoled Spender with his ‘smallness as a target, compared with the immensity of London’. But it also exposed the ‘submission of human beings to the mechanical forces that they had called into being’. It seemed to Spender that entire nations were gripped by the ‘magnetic force of power’. People ‘no longer had wills of their own’.

As Tolstoy complained in the second epilogue to War and Peace, this sort of thinking is tautological. The people transfer their ‘collective will’ to a leader, on the condition that the leader expresses the collective will. The Germans followed Hitler; Hitler led the Germans. ‘That is, power is power: in other words, power is a word the meaning of which we do not understand.’ Our attempts to explain the malignant power of Nazi Germany resemble
theodicy: the manifestation and conquest of evil, the exposure of Leopold von Ranke’s ‘holy hieroglyph’, the inner meaning and moral of history. In other words, how could this have happened?

The War in the West is the first part of a projected trilogy by the popular historian James Holland. Power here means organisation and logistics: the conversion of civilian industries to military production. Holland, who has previously ripped the yarns of the siege of Malta, the dam busters and the Battle of Britain, weaves between the abstractions of the ‘operational level’ and the chaotic, dangerous experiences of a wide cast of civilians and soldiers: between ingenious administrators like Lord Beaverbrook and Bill Knudsen, the president of General Motors, and ‘the smell of rotting flesh, dust, burnt powder, smoke and petrol’.

The metaphors are mixed too. Britain takes its ‘bloody noses’, but ‘on the chin’. A wheelchair-bound Roosevelt resists the ‘tide of public opinion’ and risks ‘political suicide’ by ‘walking on glass’. The ‘sartorially impeccable’ Wehrmacht rocks ‘innovative sub-machine guns’ with an ‘old school’ mash-up of ‘baggy-thigh breeches’ and ‘high-collared tunics’.


Holland lobs some analytical incendiaries at our ‘mythical’ impressions. The German army that invaded France in May 1940 was not invincible. Half of its men were new conscripts; a quarter were over 40 years old. The blitzkrieg merely replayed the Prussian strategy of bewegungskrieg, the ‘war of movement’, with a new weapon, air power, and 20,000 amphetamine pills for the Panzer crews. The French ‘could and should have’ stopped the Germans at ‘Sedan and Dinant and Monthermé’. Goering lost the Battle of Britain in advance, by building dive bombers. Dowding and Beaverbrook won it in advance by adaptive planning. Germany could not have starved Britain with a ‘handful of U-boats’.

None of this armchair generalship explains why the war started. Still, an army of British men will carry Holland’s book as an essential piece of kit in next summer’s struggle for the beaches of southern Europe. They would do better to take The German War. History is wisdom after the fact, and Nicholas Stargardt, a professor of modern history at Magdalen College, Oxford, has created a wise book from the facts of German life under Hitler. The Germans had wills of their own. They embraced the Nazi ‘revolution of feeling’. By 1939, two thirds of Germans belonged to at least one Nazi organisation. The majority of Germans and Austrians were thrilled by a ‘national revolution’ that lifted the economy and humbled the Jews. Big events do not require great causes: the Germans were bitter, vain and petty.

Hitler was dedicated to ‘refighting, and this time winning’ the first world war. His people were less enthusiastic, but gambled on a short, winnable war. Instead, by December 1941, they were back in 1917: war against Russia, America and Britain, shortages of food, and terrible losses. Complicit, they ‘could not escape the consequences of a ruthless racial war of their own making’. Nor did they try too hard. In January 1942, the majority of Europe’s Jews were still alive. By the end of the year, most of them were dead. Gas and burning flesh could be smelt at the railhead 20 kilometres from the camp at Belzec — the home front knew what was happening. Hitler spoke of Ausmerzung (‘extermination’). Photographs of mass executions circulated. The BBC broadcast eyewitness reports. Jewish property was publicly auctioned and Jewish homes were given to bombed-out Aryans. ‘The Jews are being completely exterminated,’ a reserve policeman from Bremen wrote to his wife from the front, ‘please don’t think about it, that’s how it has to be.’

A nation of war criminals buried the enormity in ‘collusive semi-secrecy’, and a ‘spiral of silence’ about the ‘half-articulated, often discomforting awareness of how imperial and genocidal their war had become’. But collective guilt resurrected the image of the crime in paranoid fantasies of ‘Jewish retaliation’. Even before America had entered the war, many Germans believed a rumour about ‘all Germans in America having to wear a swastika on their left breast’ as a punishment ‘because the Jews have been treated so badly in Germany’. The RAF’s campaign of demolition was widely seen as ‘Jewish terror bombing’. In 1944, when Bomber Command had trouble dropping bombs within the prescribed three-mile radius of its targets, many Berliners succumbed to Stephen Spender’s fear, and believed that the British were targeting particular streets and neighbourhoods for their crimes against the Jews.

The worse the war went, the greater the intensification of Nazi ideology and methods, and the deeper the existential complicity of the people. Before the war, Hitler had suspected that the Germans would not be up to their historic destiny, but they embraced his sub-Wagnerian apocalypse of ‘victory or annihilation’, and went down with him to the end. In early April 1945, Victor Klemperer and his non-Jewish wife, masquerading as the Aryan ‘Kleinpeters’, listened as train passengers blamed ‘Bolshevism and international Jewry’, and averred their trust in the Führer. Defeat suited the Nazi world view: as the ‘Asiatic’ horde of Bolsheviks rampaged westwards, ‘Jewish’ capitalism filled the skies with American and British bombers.

The ‘dissonant dualism of German guilt’ began its long chorus. At first, ‘guilt’ meant identifying ‘the agents of Germany’s greatest disaster’. The arrival of the Americans and Russians reminded Germans of another guilt, genocide. Like Spender under the bombs, most Germans experienced their diminishment as diminished responsibility. Not everyone felt guilty, even after the American re-education campaigns of 1945 and 1946. In August 1947, when openly endorsing National Socialism was a capital crime, American investigators reported that 55 per cent of Germans considered National Socialism ‘a good idea that had been carried out badly’. Among respondents who were under 30, or had completed a high-school education, or were Protestants or West Berliners, this figure reached 60–68 per cent. ‘What a disgrace and what a humiliation to have been born amongst the Germans,’ the writer and publisher Hermann Kasack admitted.

Disgrace, humiliation, envy, resentment: power is a word whose meaning and motives we know too well. Superbly researched and clearly written, The German War is an important and significant book. The unholy hieroglyph at the heart of the 20th-century catastrophe has always been in plain sight.

'The War in the West', £22.50 and 'The German War', £22 are available from the Spectator Bookshop, Tel: 08430 600033.
Dominic Green teaches politics at Boston College and is the author of Three Empires on the Nile.

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Show comments
  • A proper review by one who actually read the book and knows the topic.

    • patrickirish

      Apart from one small problem.

    • Kevin Herbert

      evidence?..or are you his partner?

  • Mr B J Mann

    “In August 1947, when openly endorsing National Socialism was a capital crime, American investigators reported that 55 per cent of Germans considered National Socialism ‘a good idea that had been carried out badly’. Among respondents who were under 30, or had completed a high-school education,,,,,,,, this figure reached 60–68 per cent.”

    How does that compare with the claims about how many of today’s young, educated left wingers have been brainwased into “liberal” views?!

    • Kevin Herbert

      And your data reference for this claim?…may we have it please.

      • Jackthesmilingblack

        data … them

      • Mr B J Mann

        Google

        • Kevin Herbert

          lightweight alert!!!!!

          • Mr B J Mann

            You shouldn’t be so hard on yourself!

  • Jackthesmilingblack

    At Nuremberg, membership of the Hitler Youth was declared illegal, retrospectively. Akin to declaring the Boy Scouts a terrorist organisation.

    • Hamburger

      Learn something about the aims, methods and abilities of the Hitler youth before making another comment on it.

      • Jackthesmilingblack

        But membership wasn’t illegal until after the war.

        • Hamburger

          Weren´t the Nuremberg trials after the war, or did i miss something?

        • Hamburger

          Weren´t the Nuremberg trials after the war, or did i miss something?

        • Hamburger

          Weren´t the Nuremberg trials after the war, or did i miss something?

          • Kevin Herbert

            You mean the Nuremberg Kangaroo Courts.

          • Hamburger

            They were your courts.

          • Kevin Herbert

            They were the USA’s court.

          • Hamburger

            No British judges? No British prosecutors? Look again.

          • Kevin Herbert

            I repeat…the established history shows that the impetus for the illegal prosecutions of many Germans were part of the Morgethau Plan which originated in the US……but of course, if it’s not in a film, ypou wouldn’t know that fact…dummy

          • Hamburger

            Dear me, Of course the Morgethau plan, which never was put into action was replaced by the well known Marshall plan, you know, the one for the restructuring of Europe.
            I also love it when people change the thrust of a discussion because their argument is shot. Again, why were British prosecutors and judges at Nuremburg if they were not a part of the process. Russian ones too.

          • Kevin Herbert

            Oh dear…the dumcluck thinks he/she’s scored a point…….the US led the kangaroo court’s affairs……it held total control over the post war European scenario…..total control……and there you go again trying to sound authoritative….where did I state that the British were not part of the Nuremburg trials process?

            Your attempted linking of the Marshal Plan with the Morgenthau evil, shows just how little you understand the dynamic of post WW2 Europe.

            Finally, what’s your take on the murder by starvation, neglect & violation of the Laws of War by the US victors, of nearly one million German soldier prisoners in the Rhine Meadows? ….cold blooded murder.

          • Jackthesmilingblack

            Known as “ex-post-facto”. In other words, retrospective justice. Punished for an action that wasn’t illegal at the time.
            You need to realise that the Military Tribunals held at Nuremberg in 1945/5 were the biggest miscarriage of justice since the Salam Witchcraft Trials.

            Jack, the Japan Alps Brit

          • EUSSR 4 All!

            Working for (or rather, used to work for, before being pensioned off on their Dole, at their expense) “the Yellow Man”, in one of his Countries … you dear late Uncle Adolf would had been very proud of you indeed!

          • Jackthesmilingblack

            Hadn’t heard from you for such a long time, was starting to think you’d topped yourself.
            After some 12 years of telling anyone that would listen that I was Japanese, you finally had to admit I’m resident-abroad British. How can you live with that level of guilt and shame?
            “the Yellow Man” Are you trying to tell us you’re Chinese?

            And do read through before submitting. Then perhaps you wouldn’t submit such illiterate garbage.
            Jack, the Japan Alps Brit

          • EUSSR 4 All!

            Someone who used to come from Teesside and County Durham now calling other people illiterates … tsk, tsk!

        • Hamburger

          Weren´t the Nuremberg trials after the war, or did i miss something?

  • Patrick G Cox

    Hindsight, especially when exercised by people who have not had to live under the sort of regime they are discussing and judging the people for – and, of course, not grown up with the solid propaganda pushed in education, the news and every other medium – is a wonderful thing. I am reminded of an episode in a popular televsion show in which ‘historians’ are ‘re-examining’ events of a handred years earlier. They are interupted by the arrival of someone directly involved in the events, who tells them they are wrong, and they argue, only to be told that not only are they wrong, but they really have no wish to know the truth.

    Germany was caught up in the National Socialist mythology, but what seems to have been ignored, is that they controlled and dictated the curriculum, cultivated a climate of informers and still only actually got 35% of the ballot in 1933 and formed a government with the Social Democratic Party – which they then betrayed. The SDP was eventually outlawed with all other parties. How the National Socialists won the support they got is also forgotten apparently. It rose to power as the only effective counter to rampant Leninist Unions who paralysed the economy and disrupted every aspect of life. It drew its main support, at least in the beginning, from the professional classes who had every reason to fear the imposition of the sort of State Russia had created under Stalin.

    These books also, if the review is anything to go by, ignore that fact that despite laws requiring all children join the Hitler Youth, attendance was never complete. They also ignore the estimated 40% of Germans who actively took part in activities to frustrate he Nazi dream. Of course the statistics show a rise in support for Nazi-ism, it covers a period which saw new school entries pass out at the conclusion having been subjected to a curriculum stuffed full of propaganda.

    • Pyrmonter

      They never formed a government with the socialists. They formed a coalition with members of the “conservatives”, the German National Peoples Party, as well as a range of “unattached” politicians who had held office in one or other of the emergency governments pulled together to rule by decree once the democratic parties (non-communist, non-national socialist) lost the ability to control the parliament. The socialists – to the eternal shame of the other democratic parties – were the only ones who opposed the national socialists enabling acts, which took from parliament its powers and conferred them on the chancellor.

    • Hamburger

      I have never come across the statistic that 40% of our population attempted to frustrate the Nazis. Can you provide a source please. It seems awfully high. Anecdotal evidence from family and friends would indicate a far lower percentage.

      • Kevin Herbert

        How much anecdotal evidence do you have & from how many people?…did you poll them?

        • Hamburger

          No. However I would like know from where the 40% statistic came.

          • Kevin Herbert

            So your views are solely yours……..based on no real data……mmmmm…..are you a hasbara maybe?

  • Hegelman

    Of course they were. Who doubts it?

    What most Germans disliked about Hitler in 1945 was that he lost.

    • Kevin Herbert

      You’re argument is that of a pea brain..apologies to the pea.

      • CRSM

        You’re argument? ie, “You are argument”. It may all be very Zen, but I can make neither head nor tail of it.

        • Kevin Herbert

          of course you can’t……..and now your resorting to the ‘incorrect spelling’ rebuttal…….again, sorry to the pea community……are you going to rebut Messrs Hilberg et al?

  • Hegelman

    On the other hand, it was capitalism that made Hitler possible.

  • jim

    I wonder what would happen if all jews were smeared with Gaza the way us gentiles are constantly being guilt tripped about the holocaust…..oh forget it.Just a thought.

    • davidshort10

      Gentiles aren’t ‘guilt tripped’ about the Holocaust just Germans from a long time ago, and if you think Gaza is anything like the Holocaust then perhaps you are ten years old.

      • jim

        I didn’t say it was….but it ‘aint Teletubbies is it? And though you want to deny it, all gentiles are constantly smeared with Belsen . It never stops . In every argument it is sooner or later bound to be played as a kind of trump card.Now if you tried that tactic with Gaza and all jewish people, how long would you last? I think this is a reasonable point to make.

        • Bruce Lewis

          Indeed it is; in America Jews and Protestants actually attempt to associate the Catholic Church with the Holocaust of the Jews, and you Brits should be reminded that the American press is very fond of associating your gentry with the Nazis, as well–forgetting that the Prescott Bush family actually WERE.

        • Palmer

          Germans not gentiles.

    • Palmer

      Every gentile in every country?

      • jim

        Yes.Constantly.

  • Ray Spring

    My German friend tells me that when he tried to talk to his Aunt about the death camps, she replied, Lies, all Lies. After the war, in Germany, if you had said what a Good Thing it was that Hitler Lost, you would probably have been murdered.The chap who was heavily involved in the plot to kill Hitler only wrote his book after all his mates were dead. Was it 40 years after WW2 ended that Germans could discuss the war?
    And then, we have Bomber Command. No memorial and No medals after the war. But today, we have a memorial in London to Bomber Command. It was unacceptable in 1945. Why is it OK now?

    • Hamburger

      Many of the war generation had and have problems accepting their responsibilities. As I was younger, hardly any family accepted that they had been Nazis. In the meanwhile most of the wartime generation have died, the grandchildren accept that the grandparents stories were rather different than previously thought.

      • Kevin Herbert

        where can we see these views?

        • Hamburger

          Try reading Toby Judt’s Europa for a start, Hitler’s Children by Jillian Becker too.

    • Jackthesmilingblack

      As Field Marshal Bernard Montgomery said of German leaders tried at Nuremberg: “Their only crime was losing a war.”

      • EUSSR 4 All!

        Which is a purely made-up quote, but don’t let that inconvenient fact stop your continued delusion of grandeur, a glorified unemployed disabled British expat, on the Disability Dole … in Japan, and at least for the last 4 years!

  • Emilio Lizardo

    Before the war the ground was prepared for the Nazis.: http://www.amazon.com/The-Ominous-Parallels-Freedom-America/dp/0452011175

  • trace9

    & What are We doing leaving ‘China’ to Dave. – & Tibet to the Peoples Revolutionary Arny.. for starters.. The only way Hitler wanted to ‘refight’ WW1 was to exterminate the people he blamed for Germany’s failure – The Jews. His only war-wish was to conquer Soviet Russia, remove Bolshevism & add Russian lebenstraum to his pre-war european acquisitions, all peaceful except Poland. That was the only European war he wanted. We declared war on him, remember..

  • KilowattTyler

    Hitler came to power because (i) potential opponents on both Left and Right were divided and squabbled amongst themselves;(ii) he was invited into a position of power as part of a coalition, and then exploited this position to dispose of any effective obstacles to his rise to power.

    The highest vote the Nazis achieved in a reasonably open and fair election was in July 1932, with 37.4%; in the November 1932 election their proportion of the vote was 33.1%, a sharp fall indeed. Left to purely democratic means, the Nazis would have gradually faded away (the economy was starting to improve and unemployment starting to fall, undermining the appeal of the Nazis or indeed of any extremist party). The culprit in Hitler’s entry into government was a coalition stitch-up, not the will of the Volk.

    If you live under an authoritarian regime and hate it you can survive by just keeping your mouth shut and your head down. If you live in a totalitarian regime you have to be seen to be enthusiastic about the government and indeed about any cultural or ‘spiritual’ aspects attached to it. Those who don’t evince enough enthusiasm tend to get killed (and so often do their loved ones). It is simply not possible to attribute guilt, sadism or any other emotion to whole populations living under totalitarian regimes – this is just Arts Degree mumbo-jumbo.

    • Augustus

      Your last point is entirely valid. Another ‘culprit’ in Hitler’s rise to power was Walter Funk, one of those tried at Nuremberg, but amazingly not sentenced to death but life imprisonment and released from Spandau in 1957.

      “Funk, soon after he joined the Nazi Party in 1931, began to hold important positions in the Party and soon qualified as one of the Nazi inner circle. Thus, he promptly became not only Hitler’s Personal Economic Adviser, but also Chief of the Economic Division of the Central Nazi Party Directorate and Chairman of the Party’s Committee on Economic Policy. In these capacities, he advanced the Party’s drive for mass support by drafting its economic slogans. In 1932, for example, he wrote a pamphlet entitled “Economic Reconstruction Program of the NSDAP”, which, after its approval by Hitler, became the Party’s official pronouncement on economic matters. The importance of Funk’s general contribution to the conspirators’ accession to power has been described in a book published by the Central Publishing House of the Nazi Party:

      ‘No less important than Funk’s accomplishments in the programmatic field in the years 1931 and 1932 was his activity of that time as the Fuehrer’s liaison man to the leading men of the German economy in industry, trade, commerce and finance. On the basis of his past work, his personal relations to the German economic leaders were broad and extensive. He was now able to enlist them in the service of Adolf Hitler, and not only to answer their questions authoritatively, but to convince them and win their backing for the Party. At that time, that was terribly important work. Every success achieved meant a moral, political, and economic strengthening of the fighting force of the Party and contributed toward destroying the prejudice that National Socialism is merely a party of class hatred and class struggle.’

      After he had helped Hitler become Chancellor, Funk, as Reich Press Chief, participated in the early cabinet meetings, in the course of which the conspirators determined upon the means by which they would secure the passage of the Enabling Act and destroy parliamentary government in Germany. This law destroyed civil liberties in Germany and marked the conspirators’ seizure of political control over Germany. ”
      -Jewish Virtual Library

      • Kevin Herbert

        Augustus: you are 100% on the money.

  • BookLover

    Have a look at this
    recently book – “Think Beyond- Short Story Collectives” is on Pothi
    platform. It is available for purchase as a print edition at
    https://pothi.com/pothi/book/madhumitha-murali-think-beyond . Sample is
    available on the site.Ebook is available at
    https://pothi.com/…/bo…/ebook-madhumitha-murali-think-beyond .

    “This is a novelette, a story, to develop passion for every
    reader, to move away from barriers evident from a village background. To kindle
    self- hope and come to truth from flying kites to the reality and develop in
    the reality to the goals marked, as dreams don’t make a person, it is the
    evident performance in reality that lives up. A boy lived in a remote village
    of Wardha, where he was from the lower strata, his English skills were low. He
    wanted a job in the city. He wanted to grab his dream job in KPST and his
    English and skills were a barrier. He joined as an Audit Assistant in MN &
    Co., to sustain his sustenance, and edge close to his dream career. This is a
    story of a village boy, who learns excel and English to near perfection and
    masters it and finds his dream job. He is interviewed at KPST two times firstly
    once and later after 6 months, meanwhile in gap he fights his latent and
    evident flaws and develops himself in these months, and how he uses his
    experience and understanding from his previous job to grab a job is what it is
    all about, in competition with an IIM Calcutta Student. In a heated debate with
    the Calcutta Guy, can he finally turn his dreams into a reality?”

  • jeremy Morfey

    One lesson once taught by a visionary teacher a generation ago was stark as it was blunt.

    Given their ethnic and cultural similarities, nothing that happened in Germany could not happen here.

    We should remember that when we start braying mindlessly in 10 minute hates against terrorists and paedophiles and for “hardworking people” and special relationships with illegal or disproportionate bombers.

  • But aren’t we all rather good at consigning our collective will into the hands of ‘leaders’? Remember Tony Blair? remember our joining Bush in ludicrous military adventures? Of course there was protest, but we had not been subjected to years of propaganda about the destiny of the ‘Volk’ and the Leader. The one and only defence against that kind of madness is to cultivate a loathing for dogma and Ideology and depend on pragmatism and evidence. It was ideology that got us into so many problems in the Middle East – deposing dictators in favour of ‘democratic opposition movements’. These opposition movements soon showed that they were a lot less democratic than we thought. how anyone can think that deposing Assad will lead to a happy society I can’t imagine. The reality will be sectarian mass murder and ISIS like forces coming to the fore. Think about it: Saddam, Ghaddafi, Assad….. Does anyone really think that deposing or destabilising any of these people has led to an improvement in the conditions of life for the average Iraqi, Libyan or Syrian? How about conditions for the women of those countries?

    • Jackthesmilingblack

      Got it in several, Arthur. Face it, the MSM can make gullible mug-punter Joe public think and believe literally anything. Even to the point of changing yesterday’s weather.

  • David Leigh

    Of course the German public were complicit in the misdeeds of the the Nazi’s. Do the authors think that they could have peaceably assembled and protested Nazi anti-Semitism and naked military aggression in front of the the Reich Chancellery?

    • Kevin Herbert

      evidence please..or apologise

      • 42ndRHR

        Apologies for what??

        • Kevin Herbert

          For spreading unsubstantiated tosh about the whole of the German people’s role in the genocide against European minorities including Jews….there’s no evidence whatsoever, that your claim is true…none..if there is please tell us all about it…or apologise.

          • Palmer

            The German peoples guilt in the Shoah is as plain as a pikestaff. A guilt they fully acknowledge.
            Are you a Holocaust denier by any chance?

          • Kevin Herbert

            no they don’t..and it’s not supported by an of the leading Jewish Shoah scholars…dimwit……your a Sun reader obviously

          • Palmer

            If I’m a Sun reader why am I commenting here?
            You really are a fools fool.

      • Palmer

        The evidence is patently clear. It’s in books and in films.
        What’s your next comment going to be? The Holocaust didn’t happen?

        • Kevin Herbert

          Clearly a scholar you ain’t. I don’t bother with rednecks…vale

          • Palmer

            On the evidence of your writings (writings in the widest sense of that word) the redneck is you. Equally on the evidence of your post you don’t even know what a redneck is, what a redneck’s views are or even where they come from.
            To say you’re pathetic is to insult the pathetic.

        • Jackthesmilingblack

          “The Holocaust didn’t happen?”
          However, the mass gassings followed by mass cremations … with the facilities
          available… does stretch credulity.
          It really is important to grasp the difference between Holocaust denial and Holocaust revisionism. Although this is hardly going to endear you to the Holocaust industry.

  • disqus_9I6C4azbIA

    It was not just Germany. The whole of Christian Europe was intent in destroying the Jews who lived there. This allowed the many dictators in Europe to gain power. Why the Christians felt this blood lust just cannot be explained.

    • Kevin Herbert

      This is absolute tosh.

      • disqus_9I6C4azbIA

        All of the Nazi nations from Finland .Italy,Romania etc were and still are Christian nations. what further evidence do I need ?

        • Kevin Herbert

          Huh?……you have to make sense in your responses…….have another go so that we may understand what your claiming

          • Palmer

            He’s explained it poorly or not at all. He is however correct.

          • Kevin Herbert

            I feel like I’m discussing this issue with uneducated intellectually disabled bigots ….what a sad joke you people are

          • Palmer

            That description applies perfectly to you.
            You at least know yourself well even if demonstrably you know nothing of anything else.

          • Palmer

            adc

          • Kevin Herbert

            So well argued old chap/girl…….that flaccid response must have taken at least 5 seconds to prepare, just like your other pearls of wisdom…….apparently ad hominem jibes are your only defence…..may I respectfully suggest that when you find yourself in a deep hole, it’s a good idea to stop digging.

          • Palmer

            Read through your back post, ad hominem applies to you perfectly. Pot kettle and black come to mind in regard to you.

          • disqus_9I6C4azbIA

            I do not understand your comment.The nations I mention are Christian and took part in the holocaust of Jews, Gypsies Socialists and Orthodox Catholics.

          • Kevin Herbert

            and your evidence for their alleged complicity? If you respond as another fatuous dumcluck has on this thread, that I should go to ‘a library’ and read the books there about it, I will never comment on your ‘opinions’ again!!!!!

          • disqus_9I6C4azbIA

            Well who do you think were responsible for the holocaust of these ;people. It might be that you are in denial. If so, why not say so.It is interesting that you are abusive why..

          • Kevin Herbert

            Just so you know, it’s generally accepted in informed public debate that if you make a claim of fact, you have to have the verifiable evidence to support that claim. Statements made without any supporting facts, may be dismissed without any supporting facts…got it now.

            My belligerent disposition to people such as you, is based on the my belief that important matters of history such as the genocide against European minorities both before & during WW2, MUST be based on verifiable data.

            The subject under discussion should not be trifled with nor treated as one would the discussion of whether Liverpool is a better club than ManU……

          • disqus_9I6C4azbIA

            i do not understand your argument. What evidence do I need to state that 20 million Orthodox Catholics were killed by West European Christians.This is without any doubt verifiable. Go to any library which still has books and you will find the evidence, got it. What is ManU ?

      • Palmer

        In history books.

        • Kevin Herbert

          which ones?

          • Palmer

            Go to your local library, assuming you have one, and ask for every book they have on European history 1925 – 1965. That will cover it.
            Failing that spend some of your dole money on books.

    • Palmer

      Jealousy.
      Allied to the viciousness and brain washing of the Catholic Church.

      • disqus_9I6C4azbIA

        I do not understand your comment about jealousy but you do seem to accept that the Christians were responsible for the blood lust.

        • Palmer

          The peoples of some European countries have always been anti Semitic, Russia, Poland, Austria, and Bavaria to name the large ones. Others less so. It was driven in the case of Russia by the Russian Orthodox Church and in Poland, Austria and Bavaria by the Catholic Church. In Protestant countries, Prussia, The Netherlands etc the anti Semitism was either less pronounced or non existent. Those Churches called the Jews Christ killers.
          It was easy to whip up feelings of jealousy, the Jews in many places were as poor as their Christian neighbours, they did however stick together and try and help each other, always a Jewish trait. There were also clearly wealthy and successful Jews, bankers, lawyers, doctors etc. In Vienna before the rise of the Nazis three quarters of the doctors were Jewish. That they treated their non Jewish patents with the same care as their Jewish ones didn’t matter to Hitler.
          It was easy to create anger and hatred against the Jews, inspire jealousy in the masses.
          I certainly accept that Christians were responsible, their Christianity drove their blood lust and hatred.

          • disqus_9I6C4azbIA

            You state that the Jews help each, why is this seen as a bad things by Christians ? Do they not think we should not help each other ?

          • Palmer

            Most Christians, certainly in the west, are hypocrites. They think forty five minutes in church on Sundays excuses all manner of wrong doing and failures. Christians will state people should help each other and then go out of their way to avoid helping anyone.
            I’ve always found the Jews far far more decent. There’s a wonderfully descriptive Jewish word “Mensch”, it means a person of integrity and decency, a man who can be trusted in all things, a man who behaves as a man should. I’ve met many Jews who that word can be applied to, I’ve met very very few practising Christians who could have that word applied to them.

          • disqus_9I6C4azbIA

            Yes the wonderful thing about Christianity is that Christ is all forgiving. An all forgiving god is not a just god.

          • Palmer

            We agree on that point at least.

          • Kevin Herbert

            absolute tosh…you’re running off at the mouth

          • Palmer

            My comments are based on my experiences of Jews and Christians. Yours may be different.
            As to running off I’ll leave that to you, you do it from the place of exit not entrance.

          • disqus_9I6C4azbIA

            Thank you for your response. I am not a Jew as well but in describing my horror of the holocaust am told by Christians I must be a Jew to be concerned.

          • Palmer

            The lack of concern, indeed contempt, for the victims of the Holocaust shown by the Christians you talk with doesn’t surprise me in the slightest, indeed I expect nothing else from Christians, the more pious those Christians the greater the disdain they display.
            I gave up Christianity long ago, Christianity to me is a fairy story espoused very largely by hypocrites.
            I’m very happy being an atheist. I don’t need cults, a knowledge of right and wrong and adhering to that is enough.

          • disqus_9I6C4azbIA

            I have never heard an atheist spout Jew hatred. This gives me hope that someday Christians will learn to be tolerant. I will not hold my breath.

          • Palmer

            Tolerance doesn’t fit in with the reality of Christianity. As it doesn’t with the reality of Islam. For an organised religion to flourish it must be dogmatic and intolerant of all dissent and all other religions, indeed contemptuous of all other religions and faiths. It’s that perceived strength that attracts adherents to it. Once that perceived strength goes so do the adherents. Tolerance is the death knell of religions. That’s why it cannot be permitted by the heads of those cults.

          • disqus_9I6C4azbIA

            I think that over the years the Muslims have been more tolerant than the Christians.Islam did not take part in the holocaust and are related as a Semitic people.

          • Palmer

            The Jews were part and parcel of life in Turkey, Iran, Iraq and other Muslim countries. They were accepted and prospered.
            They were accepted in the Ottoman empire in the same way as Christians were.

          • disqus_9I6C4azbIA

            This is so true during Spains golden age Christians ,Muslims and Jews lived in harmony. The inquisition ended this and Spain went into decline. I would like you and many others, how do you define a Jew ?

          • Palmer

            Christians and Jews certainly lived in harmony in Spain, the Muslims had departed.
            A Jew is defined by his race, there are Jewish atheists, Moshe Dyan was one. That he practises Judaism means he practises the religion of his race.

          • disqus_9I6C4azbIA

            This is something Christians have said to me. When I asked them what race the were they were there response was to state they were English etc. What race do you think you belong to ?

          • Palmer

            Caucasian. I’m a white man.

          • disqus_9I6C4azbIA

            Well this must mean you are Russian which is a nationality not a race. We are told by the press that Russians are bad guys.

          • Palmer

            Are you crazy? I’ve already told you I’m Rhodesian. Caucasian is the generic description for the white race.
            Russians are Slavs, I’m not, my wife is. Don’t believe everything you read in the press, in fact believe very very little.

          • Kevin Herbert

            No they haven’t…you’re repeating 19th century Zionist propoganda…what are your data sources for your claims?…if you can’t provide any, then you’re a monumental idiot…EOS

          • Palmer

            Ever heard of the Pale of Settlement?
            I know the descendants of some who were forced to live there, that’ll do for me.
            As to idiocy look in your mirror, idiocy will be looking right back at you.

          • Copyright101

            Those churches called the Jews Christ killers

            Truth hurts does it?

            they did however stick together and try and help each other, always a Jewish trait

            But never nepotistic, oh no!

            I am incidentally not Jewish. I do however have a great admiration for the Jewish people.

            LMFAO! Lolololololololololololololololololol!

          • Palmer

            Firstly the Romans killed Mr. Christ not the Jews.
            Secondly Mr. Christ was no more the son of god than you are or I am.
            Thirdly I’m the son of a Catholic father and a Church of Ireland mother.
            Fourthly I’m an atheist.
            Fifthly were I Jewish I’d state it there being no reason to hide it.
            Sixthly. Grow up. Your last line indicates you’re still in short trousers. Come back when your balls have dropped.

      • Copyright101

        Jealousy? But we’re always being told that jews have no power and no influence. So what are we supposed to be jealous of, their good looks?

        • Palmer

          They do have power and influence in certain things, fortunately.
          As to their looks who are you? Errol Flynn?

    • Terry Field

      There were over 45000 centres of killing throughout Europe, most in the centre and the east, between the late thirties and the end of the war.
      It is estimated that 20,000,000 were murdered, over and above the deaths from bombing and in military conflict.
      In truth, Europe soaked itself in hatred, murder, revenge and civilisation was temporarily suspended.
      Germans were as keen, but no more keen, on settling scores and killing for advantage than many others, although they, uniquely, were the principal agents of the destruction.
      The malevolence directed towards the jets and other unwanted peoples was undertaken in the context of thousands of years of social and belief structures.
      It should be recalled that, even though the third Reich wished to marginalise the catholic church, there were strong and a=malevolent strands. The meeting of the Pope and Hitler; the deeply catholic element to SS belief and catholic priests working actively with them. The racial fault lines across Europe, and the land ownership pressures all came to the surface. The pressures from Russia, with its radical communist jews, combined with the power of jewish money in wall street were conflated by the National Socialist regime as a global threat.
      The blood lust can be explained. There had been a desire to kill them, but the normal restraints of civilisation had held people back. The removal of the constraints, with the regime telling its people that the jews were a mortal danger, and the poverty that Germany experienced after 1918 easily explains how easy it was.
      The German state selected appropriate killers for the task in hand. The use of vicarious murder was a sign of things to come. We act vicariously every day of the week now. It is a signature of modern life.
      The techniques were lifted by modern marketers and though managers intact from Himmler and the rest.
      He said ‘ it has been noteworthy that people can be persuaded to act in an extreme manner, even when it is clear that such actions are against their personal interests’.
      The modern world would fall apart if such coercion were not routinely applied.
      For myself, Germany is in many ways attractive; the people agreeable, open, interesting and vital. I just find it hard to drive east for fear of the stench of the charnel houses. The smell lingers in my mind, as though the reality were unchanged.

      • disqus_9I6C4azbIA

        It seems the Jews are responsible for communism and capitalism. However this does not explain Christian blood lust which seems almost genetic.

        • Terry Field

          There is no blood lust; simply the awareness of difference. In difficult times, those who are different, and th the same time act as creditors tend to be murdered by the desperate debtors.
          It is banal.
          Germans are no different. We all kill; we just cover our tracks with the humbug of victory, and the invisibility of time passing.
          The 1930s were the first opportunity our species had to used modern industrial techniques to murder in quantity.
          No doubt the techniques will be improved in coming centuries.

          • disqus_9I6C4azbIA

            The Christians revealed their blood lust by the 605 hundred years of the Holy Inquisition. This was continued in the 1930s as a natural extention. You make the broad statement that WE are all killers I presume you mean all Christians are killers ?

          • Kevin Herbert

            Do you have any evidence for this?

          • Palmer

            Open your eyes and your mind. Travel broadens the mind, try it. Belsen is a good place to start.

          • Jackthesmilingblack

            Twinned with Rochdale.

    • Jackthesmilingblack

      Justice Jackson, the America appointed to head the US delegation for Nuremberg War
      Crimes Tribunal, famously told his staff in a memorandum, “I’m not having any Jews on my staff”. His reasons are even more revealing.
      Research it yourselves.

      • disqus_9I6C4azbIA

        I would assume Jackson was a Christian and it follows would be a Jew hater.

  • Kevin Herbert

    Green’s views are absolute tosh, and aren’t shared by any of the world’s leading Holocaust academics including Paul Hilberg, Yehuda Baur & Norman Finkelstein. This is the kind of garbage served up by Daniel Goldhagen’s work on this topic which was dismissed by these 3 experts as not worthy of publication.
    Dominc Green,,,you’re a etho supremacist old son…an unpaid hasbara…what sad joke your commentary is.

    • Jackthesmilingblack

      Those stories of soap made from Jewish Holocaust victims: Even as late as 1995, Israel once again announced that this piece of nonsense was simply wartime propaganda and total BS. But be advised, contradicting this piece of racism in France is considered Holocaust denial. So slammer time beckons.
      And so illogical, if the Nazis hated the Jews so much why on earth would they want to wash in soap made from Jewish fat? Which raises the question, “So what else isn’t entirely kosher?
      Jack, the Japan Alps Brit

  • EUSSR 4 All!

    @jackthesmilingblack:disqus: You do realise that the Japanese are not actually part of the White race, don’t you?!

    • Jackthesmilingblack

      With every inane comment, we learn a little more about your sad, wasted life, Jock.
      Role reversal, right? Lot of it about.

      • EUSSR 4 All!

        Well, ha-ha, very droll … do you in fact deliberately pretend to be a paranoid schizophrenic by deliberately writing gratuitously offensive things on t’Net in order to scam your local Japanese Dole Office?!

  • Hugh Blighter

    “Gas and burning flesh could be smelt at the railhead 20 kilometres from the camp at Belzec — the home front knew what was happening.”

    ‘Gas’ could be smelt? Herr Schmitz to his wife, ‘is that gas I have smelt or is it me?’…. Frau Schmitz, ‘not unless your intestines have discovered a method of pumping Hydrogen Cyanide’.

    • Kevin Herbert

      Are you serious?……this is the evidence you cite?..what a drongo….

    • HMP 635967 Fred West

      Since gas was never used that anecdote falls on it’s a$$

  • Jackthesmilingblack

    Anybody seen Looney?
    “He’s right behind you!”
    A pantomime character whose only claim to fame is that he’s always wrong.

  • HMP 635967 Fred West

    You can’t just blame the Germans, recently I have noticed my dog is’t friendly to Jews and he inexplicably barks at black people for no reason. I think it is safe to assume that Labradors – and of course German Shepherds – were not only complicit and supportive of the holocaust but may even have masterminded it.

    Don;t start me on cats – or the Welsh: FASCISTS!!!!

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