Features

Ten myths about Brexit

27 June 2015

9:00 AM

27 June 2015

9:00 AM

 

1. Leaving the EU would hurt the UK’s ability to trade with it.

 
The fearmonger’s favourite argument. But fear not: the global economy has changed dramatically since Britain joined the EU in 1973, seeking entrance to a common market. The World Trade Organisation has brought down tariff rates around the world; even if we didn’t sign a free-trade deal with the EU, we would have to pay, at most, £7.5 billion a year in tariffs for access to its markets. That’s well below our current membership fee.

2. Three million jobs will disappear.

 
A bogus figure, heard often from the likes of Nick Clegg. It dates back to a 2000 study from the National Institute of Economic and Social Research, which calculated the number of people whose jobs are linked to exports to European consumers. Would demand for these exports vanish if we pulled out of the EU? Of course not.

3. The City will decamp to Frankfurt.

 
Sound familiar? That’s because the exact same claim was made ten years ago when some in the Square Mile tried to bully Britain into joining the euro. The City has been able to thrive without us joining the single currency; three-quarters of Europe’s financial transactions take place in the UK. Indeed, 40 per cent of all transactions denominated in euros take place in Britain. With corporation tax of just 20 per cent and flexible labour laws, the UK is already a magnet for companies. That won’t change.

4. Human rights will disappear.


 
Given that Britain invented the idea of liberty and exported it to the world, we’re the last country to need EU membership to show that we respect human rights. Our tradition of human rights may anyway be codified by a UK Bill of Rights, whether or not we remain in the EU.

5. Pensioners living in Spain will have to leave.

 
Thanks to international ‘grandfather rights’, Brits living in other EU countries will continue to enjoy the same rights and freedoms that they had under the old system. The same is true for the 400,000 French people living in London to avoid President Hollande.

 

6. Universities will lose their funding.

 
Yes, there are plenty of EU grants for universities — but because the UK is a significant net contributor to the EU budget, there would be plenty of money to keep these grants going. Leaving the EU would also end the anomaly whereby Scottish universities charge fees to English students but not to students from the Continent. All non-Scots could be charged — if the SNP wished.

7. British farmers will lose their subsidies.

 
The Common Agricultural Policy may be horribly wasteful — but it’s also undoubtedly popular with some farmers. Money saved from our EU fee would leave plenty to give to farmers and, unlike EU subsidies, British ones could be linked to farm productivity. Crucially, supermarkets would be free to import the best food at the best price worldwide — without having to slap on a morally indefensible EU tariff. Such tariffs currently cost £400 per household.

8. Planes will fall out of the sky.

 
This was depicted as a possible scenario in a recent BBC television drama. But leaving the EU will not mean the end of its Single European Sky programme, which is open to countries outside the EU, including Switzerland and Norway.

9. The lights will go out.

 
The EU’s energy arrangements are one of many global agreements; Britain will remain a member of all the international energy bodies — including the International Energy Agency, which helps to co-ordinate energy policy among the developed world. We’d remain in UN climate change negotiations, but we’d no longer have to be part of a ‘Team EU’. And we could still be a part of EU energy projects.

10. The third world war will break out.

 
Usually the last resort of the desperate Europhile, suggesting that UK withdrawal is edging towards anarchy and violence. But leading historians have rubbished the idea that the EU has been responsible for peace in Europe. (Nato has been far more important.) Don’t respond to this claim, just switch on a news channel and show your friend what’s happening in Greece…

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Oliver Lewis is a contributor to Change, or Go: How Britain Would Gain Influence and Prosper outside an Unreformed EU.

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Show comments
  • Torybushhug

    I did a similar lIst here the other day. You’ve missed out a key doom monger argument:
    ‘Britain will have no influence on the world stage’.
    This is classic naive Clegg drone territory.

    The answer of course is that firstly we will regain our old place on world trade bodies as the worlds 5th largest economy and secondly, are we seriously suggesting independent nations such as Japan feel they are hellish deprived in terms of global influence? Utter drivel yet again from the lefty evidence guardians.

    • Abie Vee

      Rarely have I read such utter tosh!

      Are Japan not a part of a trade bloc? Why, bless my soul, they are!
      APEC Members: Australia; Brunei; Canada; Chile; China; Hong Kong; Indonesia; Japan; South Korea; Malaysia; Mexico; New Zealand; Papua New Guinea; Peru; Philippines; Russia; Singapore; Taiwan; Thailand; United States; Vietnam

      Its 21 members account for 45% of world trade. There’s more…. Japan are in trade talks with the EU (that’s us folks) as I write!

      As the world is heading our way, some in the UK choose this auspicious moment to want to sail away in the opposite direction. I for one am baffled at the sheer scale of this folly.

      I’ll leave you to search in vain for any country not in a trade bloc of some kind. In this day and age, the world is held together by ink… to paraphrase John Donne, with profound apologies, “No island is an island, entire unto itself.”

      • Des Demona

        ”Rarely have I read such utter tosh!”

        Indeed. But then it is based on an article of utter tosh.

        ”we would have to pay, at most, £7.5 billion a year in tariffs for access to its markets. That’s well below our current membership fee.”

        Both supposition and bollx. That is above our usual membership fee after rebates.

        ”but because the UK is a significant net contributor to the EU budget, there would be plenty of money to keep these grants going.”

        Sorry you’ve already used up more than that paying for trade tariffs.

        ”Money saved from our EU fee would leave plenty to give to farmers,”

        Oh dear, you’ve already spent that twice – see above.
        The rest? Garbage.

        • Anglo-Scot

          I am presuming that membership of the EEA via EFTA would be the £7.5bn fee talked about. Most estimates come in lower than that and most calculations of our current EU membership fee are well above £7.5bn.

          No-one on either side has argued that staying in the EEA but outside the EU will result in a higher membership fee of the EEA than we currently pay the EU.

          • Pacificweather

            Equally, no one has argued that it will be less. Much speculation but few arguments. Why would it be less? Would we have a smaller population or economy? Would we be trying to sell fewer goods and services? What justification is there that EU countries are likely to accept?

      • Torybushhug

        Wow you truly are dim.
        Japan et al are in TRADE BLOCS, not judicial political blocs.
        The UK can benefit from similar TRADE alliances, take it’s place on the WTO, maximise synergy with The Commonwealth (EU rules mean we cannot fully maximise the potential), have a trade deal with the EU (100% guaranteed as they export far more to us than we export to them).
        Stteettchhh that brain.

        • Abie Vee

          I doubt that you actually know, nor care, just how many preferential trade alliances we are in (courtesy of the EU) and how many more are in the pipeline (getting on for nearly half the countries in the world. I could list them all, and I have done, repeatedly. But it gets tedious). Needless to say, all of which will cease to apply from day one of a Brexit. I’ll leave it to you to explain the logistics of this gargantuan task, let alone the mysterious mechanism by which a small country of 65 million can exert more leverage than a single market ten times the size.

          “100% guaranteed ” they witter. As if anything is. And why ” because they export far more to us than we export to them”. Only in manufactured goods. For our service industries , the position is entirely reversed. In which case, we need them far more than… and blah blah.

          May I point out to you that service industries now account for 75% of UK GDP as opposed to manufacturing’s 16.5%!

          • Anglo-Scot

            Most Brexit scenarios envisage us staying in the EEA through membership of EFTA (which EFTA have confirmed will be available if we want).

            The EEA is the trade bloc. The EU is that large part of the EEA which is heading towards ever-closer political and economic union.

            To suggest that leaving the EU equates to leaving the EEA or is abandoning free trade with other EU countries is a canard brought up by people who don’t understand the issues or who have reasons not to present them accurately.

          • Abie Vee

            And, um, who is suggesting that?

            What we are suggesting is that the FTA which results (if)* will be, as in the cases of Switzerland and Norway, inferior to the terms we already enjoy (it is, for example, not a forgone conclusion that the UK’s opt-outs, Schengen etc, will apply to any new FTA). And all of which ignores the fact that the new agreement will have to be negotiated with the approval of all member-states. It cannot be imposed upon the EU by diktat, on terms uniquely favourable to the UK (that is to say, Cameron’s preferred option) .

            *The rules as they stand ask for negotiations to be held in good faith for a period of two years, which can be extended by mutual agreement. However, they do not require an agreement to be reached… failure to agree is accommodated by requiring the leaving party to trade under WTO rules instead. We see how that runs. In every single way, WTO is a worst case scenario.

            Really “trade” is a red herring. What matters will be the terms of trade. And on that, no one can authoritatively pronounce.

          • Anglo-Scot

            It’s true that no-one can predict the future outside the EU, but that doesn’t stop a good deal of scaremongering from people about catastrophic economic results from leaving the EU.

            You’re under a misapprehension that the WTO-option is the only exit option. What is your understanding of the Norway option by which we remain part of the EEA buy virtue of EFTA membership?

          • Abie Vee

            Do not misquote me all the time, it is SO tedious having to correct you.

            What I said was, in the absence of a free trade agreement the only option would be to fall back on WTO rules. That is a truth, and remains so. A FTA is what it says on the label: an “agreement.” It’s all very simple: no agreement = no deal. One cannot be imposed. End of story.

          • Torybushhug

            Trade barriers are nothing like they were in 1974, supposed benefits are not deal breakers, and in any event a queue of German car manufacturers will bang down Merkels door insisting an immediate TA is done with Britain. Treaty conditions already exist that require fair treatment of leavers in terms of trade anyway.
            Britain as the worlds 5th largest economy where much of the worlds legal and financial business is conducted, the home of English, will very easily arrange trade arrangements across the globe. There would be a transitionary period anyway as exit was prepared, so plenty of time.
            Stop being such a chicken licken, the sky will not fall in dear.

            The logic to your argument is that successful independent nations are somehow severely hampered by not being in the EU. Puerile. We are the original large scale mercantile nation, we have the ability and confidence to arrange our own trade, all this fear mongering is beyond a joke.

          • Abie Vee

            So, er, Germany will do a deal on car imports. So what?

            I cannot take your sunny optimism at face value. If you’re wrong? The sky will indeed fall in on our heads. Only fools buy a pig in a poke.

            Round and around in circles you go. Arguing with yourself. Of COURSE there will be trade… no one suggests otherwwise. The question is with whom, exactly, and upon what terms, exactly, and in what way an improvement on those we already have?

            And on that, you’re silent.

          • Roger Hudson

            How I wish it were the end of your story but I fear there will be more to come.

          • Abie Vee

            Quietism, pacifism, is not an option. The result of good people keeping quiet is always tyranny. You don’t imagine that the Tories wish to leave The ECtHR in order to improve our human rights do you? hahahaha… you people slay me!

          • Pacificweather

            Please, just one more chapter.

          • Mary Ann

            Having to obey the rules without any say in what those rules are.

          • Philsopinion

            Do these ‘rules’ include imposing technocratic governments in Italy and Greece the moment the people vote for governments which don’t tow the neoliberal line?

          • Pacificweather

            I think you might be in danger of ignoring the fun factor our Brexit colleagues seek. Revolution, churning things up, ducking and diving on the world stage. They think this will be fun to watch from their armchairs. Britain will seem to be that swashbuckling country of yore. Something to be proud of again so you can stand tall (if not stand a round like the Yanks) on that Carribean cruise. They forget what stirring things up usually means. Tread softly, because you tread on their dreams.

          • Mary Ann

            So you favour following the rules without having any say in what they are, I prefer to have a say.

          • mohdanga

            Canada negotiated a free trade deal with the US in 1988, Canada’s population, 30 million, the US’s 300 million. Canada then negotiated another FTA with the US and Mexico, numerous other ones with South American and Asian countries and is now putting the finishing touches on one with the EU. So Canada, 3,500 miles away from Europe, is able to negotiate an FTA with the EU but somehow the UK, with the world’s 5th largest economy and with historic ties to the continent, won’t be able to. OK, then.

          • Abie Vee

            The UK is negotiating with Canada, via our negotiators in the EU.
            You haven’t the remotest idea of what a Single Market is, have you?

            You cannot understand that we are the EU… you’re happier with your Dad’s Army fantasies are you not… ourselves alone! It was krap in 1940 and its krap today (more so).

            What makes you think that little England, 55 million?, would get a better deal than the EU, 550 million?

            Are you really THAT stupid? I suppose you are.

          • mohdanga

            Here’s a quote from the Canadian gov’t website: “The historic Canada and European Union (EU) Comprehensive Economic and Trade Agreement (CETA) is by far Canada’s most ambitious trade initiative, broader in scope and deeper in ambition than the historic North American Free Trade Agreement. It will open new markets to our exporters throughout the EU and generate significant benefits for all Canadians.” Now, you can choose to ignore reality and prattle on about the UK negotiating with Canada through the EU (not sure what this has to do with anything), the point is that Canada has quite ably negotiated a deal with the EU just as the UK would be able to. I’m sure Canada negotiated a deal that was more detrimental to them than before the deal. But you would know as you’re the smart one on these boards. Idiot.

          • Abie Vee

            We are the Eu. Canada’s historic deal is with us. Good for them and good for us.

            However, you are supposing that because Canada is negotiating a deal with the EU (us), that we could do the same in the event of a Brexit. BUT… you don’t even know what the terms of Canada’s deal are? do you? You assume, without a shred of evidence, that their terms are equal to those we enjoy as full members. I’ll bet my life they are not!

            Likewise, the EU (550 million) has vast leverage; what is it that makes you imagine that Canada would grant the same terms to us, a mere 65 million? It flies in the face of logic!

            This is my entire argument with you people. You assume we can get better terms by leaving and re-negotiating. That’s nothing more than wishful thinking. All the evidence that you can point to shows otherwise.

            In fact, your argument is infantile and quite pathetic.

          • mohdanga

            Britain is the EU? That’s a new one. But you’re the expert.
            And you have no shred of evidence that any agreement an independent UK would be less beneficial to the agreement it is part of now. You assume but you don’t know.

          • Abie Vee

            Two things. An agreement with the EU could not be any better than the one we have now. And why not? Because it would demonstrate to the remaining 27 member states that they could all screw better terms by leaving. In which case, the EU would collapse overnight. Which is why I can say without fear of contradiction that it will not happen! The second reason… why would the remaining states agree to disadvantage themselves economically for the UK’s benefit?

            Oh, and another thing, no non-member state has the sort of deal the UK is seeking. There’s no precedent you can point to. Thus, for now, history is on my side.

            “Less beneficial” Undoubtedly. But it seems to me you’re struggling to prove that we will be no worse off. I thought the idea (the story) was that we’d be better off?

          • mohdanga

            ‘Infantile and quite pathetic’….yet heaps of gov’t experts, consultants, politicians and academics are looking at the possibility of leaving the EU. They must all be dummies and should just defer to your enlightened opinion.

          • Abie Vee

            They share one thing in common with you: wishful thinking.

          • Abie Vee

            Canada was screwed by the USA… I wouldn’t hold that up as an example. And Mexico too.

          • mohdanga

            Really? As a Canadian I can assure you that our standard of living has increased since the FTA but again, I’ll defer to your expertise. You seem to be a fount of it.

          • Abie Vee

            Although NAFTA was not the first free-trade accord in North America, it was – and is – the most significant. Single-handedly, it has accomplished what its designers intended:

            It has stripped the three North American governments of any pretense of democracy

            It has destroyed the manufacturing base of the United States

            It has destroyed the manufacturing base of Canada

            It has created a modest uptick in manufacturing in Mexico

            It has destroyed agriculture in Mexico and severely weakened it in Canada and the United States

            It has gutted social services where there were any (Canada has taken the biggest beating here)

            And – note this was the biggest goal of the pact – it has transferred responsibility for governance of the three nations to extra-national corporations who are utterly out of reach of governmental and, therefore, citizen oversight.

            It gets worse. Want some more?

            According to a study by the Canadian Centre for Policy Alternatives, more than 70 per cent of NAFTA claims since 2005 have been against Canada, with nine active cases totalling $6 billion outstanding. These challenge “a wide range of government measures that allegedly interfere with the expected profitability of foreign investments,” including the Quebec government’s moratorium on hydraulic fracturing, or fracking.

            Quebec imposed the moratorium in 2011 pending an environmental review of the controversial gas-and-oil drilling practice. A U.S.company headquartered in Calgary, Lone Pine Resources Inc., issuing the federal government under NAFTA for $250 million. A preliminary assessment by Quebec’s Bureau d’audiences publiques sur l’environnement found “fracking would have major impacts,” including air and water pollution, acrid odours and increased traffic and noise. Fracking can also cause seismic activity.

            According to the CCPA, Canada has been sued more often than any other developed nation through investor-state dispute settlement mechanisms in trade agreements. Under NAFTA, “Canada has already lost or settled six claims, paid out damages totaling over $170 million and incurred tens of millions more in legal costs.

            The USA has never lost a NAFTA investor-state case.

            You’re being screwed and you don’t even know it!

          • mohdanga

            Nice cut and paste. The CCPA is a left wing advocacy group so not surprised with their ‘results’, they constantly come up with goofy studies showing how bad the gov’t is and how corporations control everything. But then that fits with your worldview.
            “Gutted social services”? That’s a laugh given that about 40% of the federal and provincial gov’t expenditures are for health care and have risen significantly since 1988 when the deal was instituted. Other social services expenditures have also risen so but in your blunted mind large increases equal decreases. Immigration of 3rd world enrichers has increased in the last 25 years in Canada and this has strained social services…that’s the issue.
            The US has a $70 trillion unfunded social security debt….how did they accomplish this if their social services have been ‘gutted’??? They are so ‘gutted’ that they can afford to have 400,000 anchor babies born to illegal immigrants in US hospitals that are automatically granted US citizenship. The US spends tens of billions on services for illegal immigrants….again, seems like a ‘gutting’.
            What’s the unemployment rate in Italy, Spain, Greece, France? No NAFTA or FTA there so shouldn’t these places be booming? Membership in the EU hasn’t prevented these jobs from leaving for China and Asia.

        • Abie Vee

          “There’s more…. Japan are in trade talks with the EU (that’s us folks) as I write!”

          Did you miss that bit on pupose? As are the USA and Canada and India and Singapore.

          • Torybushhug

            Another meaningless comment. So what if Japan are in talks with the EU? The EU has 53 TA’s, we can be number 54.
            You have a cowardly fear of change and embracing our own autonomy. I want us to be open to the world, embracing our own destiny, I have belief in our ability whereas you fret over losing some supposed EU security blanket.

            As to military alliances, another daft soundbite. We can remain members of NATO and the US and EU will welcome us into military alliance. Anyone would think there was no world prior to 1974.

            You are one of those drones that tell us the NHS would have collapsed without plucky migrants running things. Nonsense, France and Germany have just 5% non domestic born employees in their health services. We could have similarly planned and trained.

          • Abie Vee

            And yet you STILL don’t get it do you?

            “Trade” is meaningless unless and until you know the terms. And on that I have you by the goolies because you’ve nothing in the locker other than wishful thinking! You simply do not know what the terms will be, and neither does anyone else I’ve ever spoken to.

          • global city

            You keep on coming back, but you didn’t even know that the EU is a political project and it’s core aim is not trade, but political integration….. so everything you have contributed has been worthless.

            EFTA is a trade ‘bloc’…the EU isn’t….not even when it comes to trade, in that respect it is a customs union.

          • Abie Vee

            Don’t show your ignorance: a customs union is only one element of a single market. Turkey has a customs union with the EU, it is not a part of the Single Market (a trade bloc in which most trade barriers have been removed for goods, and with common policies on product regulation, and freedom of movement of the factors of production (capital and labour) and of enterprise and services.

          • global city

            It is the fundamental basis upon which things like a single market…and closer political union rest. The reason the EU (or ECSE) chose the model is because it enables much more complex webs of integration.

          • Abie Vee

            I see, you wish to play with words now: “fundamental” you chirrup.

            Perhaps. .. you cannot have a Single Market without a customs union. On the other hand you can easily have a customs union without a single market.

            As I said… don’t show your ignorance.

          • global city

            How many of those have there ever been?

            You need to stick to the ‘fundamentals’……. the high school shuffling is a tad pointless.

          • Abie Vee

            If I were you I’d say nothing. You have nothing to gain by displaying your ignorance.

          • global city

            if only you had decided to do that yourself before you started flapping tripe on this thread?

          • Abie Vee

            I have reduced you to wittering schoolboy ad-hominems because you’ve nothing else left in your rather tiny locker. Now run along and play nicely with the other children, and stop bothering the grown-ups, there’s a good little boy.

          • global city

            That was inevitable the moment you decided that you had no actual answer to my initial sound logic, but just couldn’t help yourself and you replied!

          • Abie Vee

            WHAT!!! … the EU is only a customs union? You call that sound logic?
            Falls off chair laughing.

          • global city

            That is because you are an idiot who completely missed the point. The first steps of the EU was to build a customs union…….this is because it is as political as all the rest.

            Stop responding with your hurt ego. I have made some serious points that you have either missed or ignored in your desperate snowflake desperation to win one over on me.

          • Abie Vee

            No darling… when you’re in a hole, stop digging.

            You did not understand the difference between a customs union and a single market. I have put you right, my pleasure: now shove off. Come back when you know what you’re talking abaht.

          • global city

            LoL! WTF?…er, etc.

          • Abie Vee

            But by all international standards, our NHS is far better value for money than theirs. Yes “we could have” but we didn’t, we preferred to pilfer the world’s resources instead.

            “Destiny” he witters… fate, eh? Yet another abstract noun to play with. Perhaps you read palms or tea leaves?

          • kingkevin3

            The NHS is a disgrace. Go to Germany and check out the difference. The point is of course in Germany you need an insurance card to get treatment..ie those who get treatment are the ones paying for the system. A very simple idea really whereas here the system here is awash with people who have paid nothing in and are simply taking everything out. No one can convince me the NHS is only fit for a third world nation.

          • Andrew Smith

            Quite right. I have just come back from a visit to a doctor in Germany. She was entirely useless and didn’t listen. If this had happened under the NHS, that would be the end of the line, but under this system I can visit as many different specialists as I like until I get the treatment I need. It works!

          • Abie Vee

            The NHS beats the German health service in WHO rankings and others. At least, it did until the Tories got a hold of it…

          • Pacificweather

            We could have but we didn’t. We might but pigs might fly. History shows we are very bad at looking after our people’s interests and very good at finding quick fixes using foreign capital and labour. We can’t do better by leaving the EU but we might eventually do as well or slightly worse. If that is a risk that’s worth taking for the illusion of sovereignty then that’s fine. Nothing wrong with that but it is self deception to think we (by that I mean the British people) will do better by leaving the EU. Leaving the EU won’t raise the minimum wage, it won’t abolish employer subsidies or prevent immigration. Only our governments can do that and, to date, they have shown very little interest in doing that. There are signs of change but merely signs so far.

          • global city

            How embarrassingly ignorant?

        • Abie Vee

          And, um, military alliances? Isn’t trade and war all political in the end?

          • John Carins

            Are we safer in this new military alliance or out of it. Tying ourselves to ever political union and its consequences may be a bad bet: EU foreign policy will be determined by Germany/France. Moreover, militarily they couldn’t fight their way out of a paper bag.

          • Abie Vee

            Militarily the NYPD is larger and probably better equipped than the British Army.

            But of course you misread my comment: all actions are at bottom political are they not, trade, war, peace, diplomacy… all.

          • Topsy Kretts

            34,500 in the NYPD, 90,000 with another 50,000 in reserve British Army. Source – NYPD homepage, Army homepage.

          • Abie Vee

            Wait.

          • Abie Vee

            How many of those 90k are non-combatants?

          • Topsy Kretts

            I’ve got a shovel in my shed…

          • Atticus

            Holy crap you really need to figure out when to stop typing Abie Vee. Of the many years I have been posting and reading on a number of sites, you are by far an away the most hard-headed, mis-informed and self-superior poster I have encountered. Even worse than ‘Fabian Solutions’.

          • Abie Vee

            Thank you.

          • Mary Ann

            At least they are not gung ho. They won’t be declaring war at the drop of a hat.

          • John Carins

            The burden of running the empire will require the French and Germans to be prepared to wage war. It is the British who are not “gung ho”. The British only resort to war as a necessity to defend ourselves against unjustified attacks. Of course the recent exception is perhaps Labour’s Tony Blair.

          • Abie Vee

            How does Cameron escape culpability for the destruction of Libya and the resultant chaos?

          • John Carins

            The war in Libya was a civil one. The British/French intervention was aimed at aiding one side against the other with the aim to depose Gadaffi and to in theory stop the civil war bloodbath (which would have continued). The very limited military intervention was successful in meeting those aims. As usual it was the lack of follow through by our politicians/international development to secure the peace and stability in Libya that has gone awry. In this case it is easy to criticise Cameron in hindsight, it is perhaps more apposite to blame the international community and in particular the EU for not capitalising on the initial success. Just in the same way Italy is being left by the EU to sort out the migrant problem. You will argue that this demonstrates the need for closer political union. For me it doesn’t – the Italians free of the EU could take unilateral and robust action to deal with the issue at its root cause. Because they would be responsible they couldn’t pin the blame on the EU or shirk the issue.

          • Abie Vee

            Nice to hear from you “Historical revisionists R us” people. The limited invasion was so “successful” that mayhem now rules the Maghreb!

            Yes indeed, a lack of Plan B… the consequences of which we see today.

            YES… it is was easy to criticise, at the time (never mind with the luxury of hindsight). As in Iraq,, as in Syria… when this country in its profound ignorance was prepared to bomb Assad as opposed to ISIS. Thank GOD the British people had more sense than Cameron.

            The Italians will indeed take robust action, with or without the EU’s assistance (that’s us by the way). They will give the refugees travel documents and say, “Get on with it”.

            You fools know nothing!

          • Abie Vee

            Successful?

            Iraq… in ruins. Tunisia? Falling apart. Libya, a war zone, Syria a humanitarian tragedy. Egypt? In the hands of dictators.

            Successful? As the wise old German wryly observed on the road to Moscow in 1941… “We are in danger of winning ourselves to death”!

          • Philsopinion

            Like Labour did for thirteen years?

          • Roger Hudson

            Not a very impressive climbdown.

          • Abie Vee

            I have it on impeccable authority: “War is merely the continuation of policy by other means.”

      • Chamber Pot

        The EU is not a trade bloc as everyone knows Abie, otherwise it would still be called the Common Market – jeez !

        • Abie Vee

          Have it your own way… the EU’s Single Market.

      • Aasvogel

        Is Japan… ? Japan is …

  • “It dates back to a 2000 study from the National Institute of Economic and Social Research, which calculated the number of people whose jobs are linked to exports to European consumers.”

    The argument is of course nonsense, but falls down badly even under its own logic.

    Given that we import more than we export from the EU then if 3 million jobs will disappear it must be the case that 4 million jobs are *suppressed* by the current membership of the EU (allowing other EU countries to export here).

    As people in Derby discovered when the train contracts were awarded to Germany.

    • Pacificweather

      3 million is the number of full time employees in receipt of £13.7 billion annually in WTC and HB so the taxpayer will be pleased not to have to pay the employer subsidies.

  • cartimandua

    The EU keeps wanting to tax financial transactions. That kills the City stone dead.

    • Kaine

      Strangely the one the Americans have hasn’t killed Wall Street.

  • John Carins

    Best article in the Speccie for a long time. Now let’s have a list of the advantages of leaving the EU, add them to this and there you have it. Why on earth is the UK in the EU?

    • Pacificweather

      Mrs Thatcher and John Major thought it would be a good idea.

      • John Carins

        You missed the real culprit – Ted Heath, the greatest traitor in British history.

        • Pacificweather

          True, but he must come second to the British electorate who voted in the subsequent referendum for the status quo. They’ll do it again you mark my words. Traitors to the core.

          • John Carins

            They unlike Heath are not planning treachery. The people are poorly led, and deliberately deceived.

  • Gilbert White

    Yes OK but why not just for once let the British People have a simple vote without the campaigning and grandstanding. Maybe we will be paupers in designer clothes like the greeks if we left but at least we will be free paupers. Perhaps we should think about the disfranchisement of certain sections of the community as well surely those who crawled in on the undercarriage of a Stoddart artic last week will be disfranchised or perhaps not!

    • Abie Vee

      “Free”? Free to starve.

      • Torybushhug

        Any nation not in the EU is suffering starvation?
        The poor dears, life must be hell in Norway, Australia, Canada, S Korea, Switzerland and all the rest. If only they had your wisdom.

        • Abie Vee

          That schoolboy rhetoric is known since Roman times; it is called reductio ad absurdum. Lift your game mate.

          • Torybushhug

            You said we will starve outside the EU. No doubt you are one of those clones that imply cabbages never got picked and old bums never got wiped until Blair let the Poles in.

        • Abie Vee

          So you really don’t know the difference between literal and figurative language? I’d be ashamed to admit that, but you parade the depth of your seemingly endless stupidity like a badge of honour.

          You people, eh? God help us.

    • Mary Ann

      We can’t have the majority who are totally uninformed voting until at least someone has tried to explain it, that would lead to people making emotional decisions without any idea of the consequences, Talking to ex-pats living in Europe, most of them don’t seem to realise that they would probably loose their state health care and be subject to double taxation, and they are people who are going to be seriously affected by a vote. Most British people will notice very little difference except prehaps a greater influx of migrants from the rest of the world, someone has to do the jobs.

  • Abie Vee

    Gosh. 1. Leaving the EU would hurt the UK’s ability to trade with it. Well there’s nothing in that comment to say that it will improve it either! As he rightly says, driven by the WTO and GATT and the EU (yes, that’s us folks!) tariffs have indeed been slowly falling to today’s historic lows… it’s an intention of the EU (us) to abolish them altogether over time. So, um, no leverage there for the UK, and no leverage in terms of scale either. By what peculiar mechanism a country with an internal market of 65 million (if Scotland stays) will out-bid a market of 550 million confounds logic. And if we have to pay £7.5 billion in tariffs to the Eu, presumably we will charge a similar amount on their exports here. Well I doubt the corporate bosses in the UK will blink at a ten percent tax on their Mercs, BMWs and Porches, but ten percent will cripple British cars, especially those at the cheaper end. In which case they will likely move production over the Channel.

    In the event, we will be obliged to obey EU laws. So, worse terms, a £1.5 billion saving (max) and enormous disruption for UK industry. So why bother… all that for nothing! In the Alice In Wonderland world of Euro scepticism, that’s what I’d call running and standing still.

    But all this only addresses trade in manufactured goods… UK service industries garner a huge profit from the EU, £83 billion, and there is no guarantee that we’ll have automatic access in those areas as now (as part of her FTA, Switzerland is excluded from swathes of the EU’s lucrative financial services industry) … does anyone seriously think that the protectionist elements in the EU, especially within the EZ, will not jump at the chance to limit the UK’s influence? And then there’s FDI (foreign direct investment) from the EU into the UK, to which the other member states are our biggest contributors, close to £378 billion 2013, from memory. So add the three together; goods, services, FDI from the continent and we come to a round figure of £700 billion, minus our net contribution, which leaves £690 billion. A colossal sum to put at risk in pursuit of abstract nouns like sovereignty and freedom.

    2. Three million jobs will disappear. You cannot have your cake and eat it. If tariffs are introduced on our exports to the EU, as you suggest, our goods will become even less competitive than they are today. To then imagine that jobs would not disappear is bluster. No one doubts, no one that I can find so far, that Brexit will cause an immediate contraction in UK GDP. No one knows how much, or how long, estimates vary from 5% to 20%. It is impossible to pretend that such contractions would not imply job losses, if only in the short term.

    3. The City will decamp to Frankfurt. “That won’t change”! Wow… such sunny optimism (which is really all the OUT camp has… a “trust us, it’ll be alright on the night” approach). Yeah right. In an open letter to Cameron, Goldman Sachs, the world’s largest investment bank, had this to say: “… there are no scenarios by which we will not be fully participating in that market…” (EU) and suggested that they were speaking for the other 200 or so foreign banks operating out of London. It’s easy to call that a threat, a bluff, forgetting that such dismissive optimism is itself a bluff. From arguing that it didn’t happen in the past, it is not possible to arrive at the conclusion that it won’t happen in the future.

    4. Human rights will disappear. Of course they won’t. But does anyone here imagine that the Tories want to pull out of the ECHR (nothing to do with the EU incidentally) in order to IMPROVE them? hahaha… stop it will ya.

    5. Pensioners living in Spain will have to leave. Possibly. There are three scenarios here. 1. UK leaves and joins the EEA. in which case all existing rules concerning the free movement of people will apply. This or course leaves the rationale for Brexit “sovereignty” (aka immigration) unaddressed. 2. The UK negotiates an ad-hoc agreement. Since this would likely contain restrictions on Europeans entering the UK it is hard to see all 27 member states , particularly those in the East, agreeing to such nonsense (already described as “racial discrimination ” in Poland). 3. No agreement. In which case, once again, who knows? The unknown unknowns.

    6. Universities will lose their funding. Yes, they would lose their EU funding. Whether this government would make up that shortfall only you and I can guess at. My guess is that they wouldn’t, and they’ll invite the Americans in through TTIP to take up the slack.

    7. British farmers will lose their subsidies. Yes they will lose their EU funding as above. Same goes… will this slash and burn Tory government be happy with state subsidies for rich landowners? Probably. But for rural communities and fisheries too?

    8. Planes will fall out of the sky. And pigs will fly.

    9. The lights will go out. Possibly, it all depends upon what the French and Chinese do next. “Our” utility companies are largely in foreign ownership (didn’t you notice?) and we have no coherent energy policy.

    10. The third world war will break out. It might. But it will be diddly-squat to do with NATOs little poodles in the EU, and everything to do with Washington and Moscow.

    • We will not be obliged to obay EU laws when we leave but it is true to say that goods from the UK going to the EU will need to conform to their standards just as goods from the UK to the USA need to conform to American standard, no big deal really.

      • Abie Vee

        Um, their “standards” are enshrined in law. Thus, we obey their laws. So much for sovereignty. Next!

        • Torybushhug

          What point are you making this time ffs?
          Japan and S Korea export huge amounts into the EU. America into China. They have no say on standards and rules into those export markets, so what? As one of many EU nations our say on EU rules is minor anyway.
          Can you try thinking for yourself for a change? You suck down every populist Europhile soundbite without question.

          • Abie Vee

            I make the point that sovereignty (so beloved by charlatans) is not regained by leaving the EU.

          • Anglo-Scot

            The process of regaining sovereignty is not a quick or automatic one. Staying in the EEA will mean compliance with EU trade laws. However, most EU trade laws were made by the WTO and simply repackaged by the EU for onward enforcement by member states.

            Leaving the EU would mean we would regain our seat on the WTO, a very considerable improvement on having no seat and relying on the EU to promote our trade interests (which usually do not line up with the EU’s agenda).

          • Abie Vee

            WTO trade rules are nowhere near as good as our current terms. WTO rules allow for tariffs, quota restrictions, product embargoes, and protectionism.

            Furthermore, they are rules which aren’t actually enforceable in any court. Thus, they’re just guidelines.

            Er, regain our seat? We are members of both the WTO and GATT (and the EU for that matter).

          • Anglo-Scot

            We don’t have a seat at WTO talks – the EU speaks for all EU states jointly. This is not a controversial statement but a fact.

            You answered my question about the level of your understanding of the Norway option by talking about the WTO only option instead. I suggest you read about it at eureferendum.com (download “FlexCit”). A lot of man hours have gone into thinking about how the Norway option could work.

          • Mary Ann

            So if you want us to be like Norway, why not live there?

          • mohdanga

            Making a point that Norway has been able to negotiate a trade option that meets their needs and possibly might be the basis for a UK deal surely means that any proponents of this want to turn the UK into Norway. Another brilliant example of the logic of the left.

          • Abie Vee

            We do indeed have a seat with both the WTO and the EU.. we are an integral part of the EU, the them and us scenario is a figment of the imagination… our DNA is all over the place!

            Of course they say “could”. That’s to say, in a best case scenario. That’s to say, IF the rest of the EU agrees ( and any one of the remaining states “could” wield a veto). That’s to say, sunny optimism, speculation, hypotheticals, wishful thinking and crossed fingers.

            But Norway still pays an EU budget contribution; it abides by every EU law by instruction, government by fax they call it, and it has no way of directing those laws in future; and it is obliged to be in Schengen, and her main export to the EU, fish, is price-controlled at a high rate so as not to undercut the EU fisheries fleet.

            I’ll leave you again to tell me just how those terms and conditions are any more favourable than those we already enjoy. I wait with baited breath.. get it “baited”?

          • Abie Vee

            You pass off the EU and WTO as at loggerheads, whereas their objectives are identical: the elimination of trade barriers and the promotion of free trade. As a result trade tariffs are now at a record low historically.

            It has been suggested by some that the EU is dragging its feet, but that’s then a matter of timing or caution, rather than one of destination. Not every country is a nonchalant as is the UK about flogging off its treasure to outsiders .

          • Roger Hudson

            Oh yes, it is.

          • Abie Vee

            Really? Ask Norway how they feel about “government by fax”… ask Switzerland how it feels about being excluded from swathes of the EU’s lucrative financial services market… ask them both how they feel about being forced to enter the Schengen arrangements and how they feel about their budgetary contributions to the EU (of which they are not members)..

            You people live in a dream world. Sovereignty is an abstract noun.

        • No, their rules apply to goods going to the EU just like we apply American rules to exports there and Canadian rules to exports there and Austrailian rules to goods going there it does not mean that we obey American and Canadian and Australian laws in domestic law here and to say otherwise, as you have, is absurd and just highlights what an idiot you are.

          • Abie Vee

            Yet another mumbling bumbler who doesn’t understand the difference between a customs union and a single market.

            At this late stage, do I really REALLY have to explain it to you? Are you wholly incapable of researching for yourself?

          • You are a confused individual, goods going to the EU need to be CE compliment and CE compliance is not related to the EU so that won’t change and domestic EU law simply won’t be binding on any of us when we leave and will only affect products going to the EU from the UK just as US rules apply to our exports there, this really is not a hard concept to grasp and I am really at a loss as to why you are struggling with it.

          • Abie Vee

            “EU law simply won’t be binding on any of us when we leave and will only affect products going to the EU from the UK…”

            So, um, it will, and it won’t. Brilliant.

            Noway finds, as a consequence of her Free Trade Agreement, that she has to incorporate roughly one third of all EU laws into her domestic (sovereign?) legislation, as directed by the EU. No ifs, no buts. “Government by fax” the Norwegians call it.

            The same will apply to the UK.

          • Its hard to see how a car made in Coventry for EU use means we are all abiding by EU laws, dont you get it yet?

            Norway picked its deal and Turkey picked a better one, the USA is getting its deal right now and it is applying exactly zero laws from the EU domestically, are you getting this now?

          • Abie Vee

            “Picked”? yeah right. Like, er… they had an option. Do you think they like being told what to do? Do you think they like to have one-third of their legislation decided for them, without any input or veto? You do? Do you think they like the fact that their fish exports to the EU are priced by the EU at an artificially high level, so as not to undercut the EU fisheries fleet? Do you think they picked those options? Do you think the Swiss are deliriously happy to be in the same boat, and to be excluded from swathes of the EU’s lucrative financial services industry? You do?

            Good grief. And Turkey? She has a customs union only: she is excluded from the rest of the single market (the free movement of goods, services, investments, and people). You think she picked that? It was all she could get.

            The USA is applying zero laws is she? How do you know? Do you have inside information? Do you think that she will be able to stop European carpetbaggers moving into her heretofore protected domestic markets? You do?

            You haven’t a clue.

          • The point, that you just cant get, is that whatever country or market UK business export into they all comply with local rules and that does not mean that local rules are part of our domestic law and nor does it mean local rules apply to the people of this country.

            You appear to be terrified of us exiting the EU and perhaps that’s because you are an EU economic migrant who is on our benefits gravy train so despair not as you can stay but even if we vote to stay in the EU your benefits days are still numbered.

          • Abie Vee

            In the case of Norway and Switzerland it most certainly DOES mean that EU laws become part of their legislation. Plain. Simple.

            What makes you think that the UK will be any different?

            Perhaps you should cool down your overheated imagination.

          • Because no other country that has a free trade deal with the EU does, Norway and Switzerland do not have free trade deals they have associations of varying types.

            No one, wanting to leave the EU, is looking for any special deal like Norway and Switzerland have they are simply seeking to be independent of the EU and deal with the EU the same way the USA does.

            Remember, you do not have to be in the trade block to trade with the trade block.

            One more time as your not that bright, you do not have to be in the trade block to trade with the trade block.

          • Abie Vee

            Wrong again eh? You’re good at this. They both have Free Trade Agreements… similar, though different. None of the 50 or so trade deals we have with non-EU states are identical, they vary widely, but they have one thing, and one thing only, in common: none of them are as good as the terms open to members of the EU. Like us.

            The matter of Trade is almost by the by: the crux is, as I bang on and on about ad nauseum, the “terms” of the deal.

            And, of course, on that crucial matter you and your fellow travelers are silent. Because you have no idea what they will be. With you people, all is supposition. And the public have rumbled it!

          • So none of the EU trade deals are identical and the majority cede no sovereignty and the majority do not impose EU law into domestic law but somehow the UK that is the EU’s largest trading partner will be forced into accepting EU laws domestically when we leave the EU? you need to explain that a bit more as it really makes no sense.

        • mohdanga

          So foreign products imported into the UK which need to meet UK standards equate to the exporting country surrendering their sovereignty? This is the topper amongst the litany of laughers you have posted. Next!

          • Abie Vee

            In a way, yes. The world is held together with ink: every treaty, every agreement, every accord, every supra-national body to which we belong is a sharing of sovereignty (“surrender” is your word as usual).

            But, hey, it isn’t my holy grail.. I KNOW sovereignty’s a myth, nothing more than an abstract noun.

            Tis you people who have the problem! Next!

          • mohdanga

            Yes, ‘sovereignty is a myth’. Keep up the good work.

          • Abie Vee

            Indeed it is. An abstract noun. I think you are confusing sovereignty with virginity.

    • Anglo-Scot

      Your figures could be right and we will become a third world country or they could be wrong and we will forge ahead to become the best performing economy in the world.

      More realistically, the projections from Open Europe suggest a swing of up to 1.5% of GDP either way – in or out – dependent on various economic decisions. I suggest that their weighty analysis is more likely to be more accurate than your post.

      • Abie Vee

        I have read the report before, and it is far more complicated, provisional and conditional that your simple comment suggests.

      • Mary Ann

        Stop trying to frighten people by saying that Britain could become a third world country, short of the Kraken Wakes, it isn’t going to happen.

    • ArashUK

      your nonsense shows you are hiding behind blah blah blah. EU is a corrupted incompetent Marxist state which is sinking day by day. ten years ago there was kind of sympathy for the likes of you, but now that EU is becoming less competitive than those third countries which you are moaning about, the likes of you should be best ignored to live with your fantasy of United Soviets of Socialist Europe!!!! Historically, UK has been always avoided tyranny, collectivism and war in your beloved EU.
      UK just needs another Henry VIII to leave another corruption and gain its real place.

      • Abie Vee

        What a tsunami of verbal diarrhoea . Well done. I hope you feel better.

        Henry VIII… no better example of tyranny in British history.

        • ArashUK

          oh yeah you have a liberal tiny responsible government in EU comrade. I prefer him to the likes of you. He decided the best for UK and left that corrupted Vatican for the best of British people.

          Instead of saying nonsense, try to think otherwise you will be thrown away in the garbage of history like your beloved EU. You lefties are really pathetic.

          Your comments show me clearly that throwing up in a desert is more valuable than having a debate (there could not be a debate with a lefty as they dont know what is reason) with a comrade.

          So, dont bother to write anything, get along with your miserable pathetic mindset comrade.

          • Abie Vee

            Good grief. It would take an entire book to counter your deranged counter-factual revisionist codswallop. I have the time… I don’t have the patience.

            History is very obviously your weak point.

          • ArashUK

            Ignored. I told you pathetic lefty

          • Pacificweather

            Yet, somehow, when it came to it, you just couldn’t ignore him. He owns you body and soul 😉

        • ArashUK

          silly comrade be happy with your sinking EU as you all be lost in the garbage of history. Henry VIII is preferred to these EU clown politician.
          Try to think and then come back, otherwise will be ignored!!

          • Abie Vee

            History? I doubt you even know what day it is.

          • ArashUK

            Ignored. I told you pathetic comrade

  • WarriorPrincess111111

    There are some very good points made in the above report – not to mention that there has never been a good ‘union’ between member countries and there is not likely to be. There will always be arguments among the union and there will always be at least one nation who wants to dominate all the others.
    However – most of the posters on this site appear to be pretty knowledgeable- there are though, the huge majority of experts who obtain their limited knowledge purely from televised programmes and discussions, and close their minds to common sense alternatives. Those who know everything will never learn!
    Personally, I would welcome the UK coming out of this disastrous Union. For Britain to be its own master and not be dictated to. To be responsible for its own future, to prove that we are front runners and not sheep in industry, etc.,etc.,To actually move forward instead of being stagnated by all the legislation churned out every week.

  • Faulkner Orkney

    All this focus on economics (important as they are) is as nothing to the disgrace that the UK is being limited in its ability to make its own laws and run its own democracy…two world wars and more should not lead to us being any part of the EU ‘project’. Grrrr

    • Abie Vee

      That’s the point isn’t it… you pick your hat according to the weather. It’s the economy one day, and freedom the next,

      The fixation with abstract nouns, sovereignty and freedom, is utter tosh. No country is free to do just as it likes… not a one. Democracy has been eaten alive by the free market (which is why four out of ten people can no longer be ar55ed… it makes little or no difference to the working people of this country how they vote: they get what they’re given.

      What choice did we have? Austerity or austerity lite. Big deal.

      Freedom? Freedom to live out of soup-kitchens; freedom to work for slave wages; freedom to do as you’re told and STF up; freedom to be spied upon by assorted spooks, gooks and other right wing fruitcakes; freedom to be thrown out of your life-long abode?

      You can have it. You can have it all. Me? I’m praying for riots!

      • Torybushhug

        Freedom to run our border as we see fit would be but one example of freedom. Cry babies told us the world would end if we did not join the Euro, that millions of jobs would be lost, it is the doom mongers that purvey infantile abstractions.
        As to slave wages, there’s nothing like an unending supply of cheap immigrant labour that will deliver that one for you, not to mention loss of productivity, less need for employers to hire on the job training apprentices etc. More abstract nonsense no doubt.

        • Abie Vee

          As I said, because something hasn’t hasn’t happened yet it doesn’t mean to say that it can’t or won’t happen at all.

          But, hey, logic isn’t you people’s strong point is it… you think with your heart and guts, not your brains.

          Global capitalism, the free market, new technology, sets wage levels now. All beyond your control. But you’ll be happy on your precious border… poor but happy. Your shocking ignorance precedes you like a red warning flag.

          • Faulkner Orkney

            “But, hey, logic isn’t you people’s strong point is it… you think with your heart and guts, not your brains.”
            ‘Us people’ can only bow to how clever you are Abie…thanks for the clearing this up.

          • Abie Vee

            Don’t mention it, FO.

          • John Carins

            You are quite a pessimist. Everything you say will be amplified if we stay in the EU. I think that individual freedoms will be better protected in a Britain free of an over bearing state and over bearing EU. The Germans are relentless in their need for rules, it’s in their nature: “alles ist in ordnung”

          • Abie Vee

            Rules you say, RULES? We too are addicted to the stuff. Were you ever in business in the UK before we entered the Common Market? I was, and I was utterly swamped with rules…

            That’s the Great Fallacy at work… that if we left the EU “rules” would disappear. No they will not. They will be replaced, in toto , by identical British rules.

          • John Carins

            I agree we too are addicted to rules. British rules are though British and not German. I never said rules would disappear but I imply that at least the rules would be of our making to follow or reject.

          • Abie Vee

            That has got to be the most ridiculous, the most feeble, the most stupid argument for leaving the EU that I have ever come across.

            It reminds me of the old football chant from the perennial losers: “We’re shjt and we know we are!”

          • John Carins

            Stooping to insult is a sure sign that you are losing the argument.

          • Abie Vee

            Far better than stooping to imbecility.

          • John Carins

            You can’t help it. It’s in your mindset.

          • Abie Vee

            Clearly not. I have reduced you to posting childish inanities.

          • Abie Vee

            You’re such a wag, eh? Laugh? I thought I’d never start.

          • Pacificweather

            Except for the ones we would have to comply with to trade with the EU. Norway may have its fishing right but it still has to comply with the trading rules.

          • John Carins

            That’s the same rules that the US, Chinese et al have to follow. No big deal. In addition, we pay a lot to be a member of this trading club.

          • Pacificweather

            The Chinese are in EFTA! Sneaky devils. Let’s just stop trading with EU. Sell the Audi and buy a Jaguar. Trade the Golf for a Nissan or a Chevrolet. That’ll learn ’em. I shall miss the cheese but sacrifices have to be made for one’s country.

          • John Carins

            Jaguar owned by an Indian firm. Nissan is Japanese/French. There are probably more British cheeses than French. British cheese is very good – after all we gave the world Cheddar. No need to stop trading with them as it is in our mutual interest to have fair trading arrangements after we leave the EU. It’s really the ever political union stuff that makes me very annoyed.

          • Pacificweather

            The political union was the good bit, especially as it was never going to happen. The United States of Europe couldn’t even come up with a constitution even though the USA had a perfectly good one they could copy. No, it was all those trading rules got up my nose. In my father’s day radio valves imported from Holland were stamped Mullard to avoid import duty. All the old dodges have gone by the board and everything’s owned by foreigners as you rightly pointed out. So either way we are stuck with the trading rules and the foreign owned companies. My enthusiasm for Brexit is waining. It may be difficult to get out of bed on referendum day. I’ll stay there with my TeasMaid, cheddar and crackers.

          • Abie Vee

            Pathetic.

          • revkevblue

            Liar. that was not the case before the common market, starting and running a business was as easy as falling of a log.

          • rodger the dodger

            That’s very funny john. It doesn’t matter what the outcome of a referendum is, because the EU is going to collapse anyway.

            By 2024 at the latest.

          • John Carins

            Let’s hope so.

          • David

            Drivel!

            We’re true internationalists. We want world trade not being stuck in a declining customs union. We want a chair at the World Trade Organisation table, the ability to negotiate bi-lateral trade deals with China, India and our Commonwealth.

            The EU is sinking in its own incompetence and corruption; no basis for a prosperous future there…

          • Abie Vee

            Negotiate? Talk is cheap. *

            You want to talk to China? Why haven’t you… Germany’s exports to China are worth four times ours are are growing all the time. You want to talk to India, er, you are; India is in negotiation with the EU (that’s us by the way) and looks set for an FTA any day soon. Commonwealth? Singapore has finished negotiations for her FTA and joins us soon. South Africa? Already here mate, Canada, on the way. The Caribbean? Arrangements in place with the CARIFORM states. South America? ditto.The rest? Mexico? an FTA this last decade or so.South Korea, an FTA this last three years, 50 other countries ditto. The USA on the way (TTIP) . You people are insane. Bonkers. As the world comes our way, you seek to sail away to the past.

            Internationalists? No you’re not, you’re insular nationalists pretending to be internationalist. Do you imagine that the UK will be any more open and outward-looking than at present? No it will not: the Little Englanders will pull up the drawbridge.

            *tell me, by what peculiar mechanism will all your talking be able to screw a better deal for us , a small country of 65 million, as opposed to our collective bargaining might, 550 million, as members of the EU. It simply flies in the face of logic… where is the leverage? There isn’t any! All you have is hope. Nothing else.

          • Abie Vee

            Like a spoilt brat… “we want we want we want.”

            Don’t you understand that life isn’t like that anymore Little Englander? Didn’t your mummy ever tell you that life isn’t fair? You people have lost your Empire, and it is high time you got used to the idea. But you never will: your future is to die unrequited.

            Meanwhile… the rest of us move on.

          • rob232

            These charges of ‘little Englander’ are quite unfounded. Compared to other European countries Britain is and always has been a very international country. True that in the sixties and seventies it tended to look away from Europe and towards the rest of the world and it has now become much more Europeanised. But I would say as a person who has spent almost all his life abroad that it has taken the rest of Europe decades to catch up with the British. From the Italian lads who came to London from Rome who were afraid to eat Chinese food or eat green apples to the villagers of France who couldn’t understand foreigners if they spoke with a foreign accent. I lived in a middle class neighborhood in 1970 where half the people had foreign origins. The family next door had six children all of whom married foreigners, try telling that to some continental in 1970.

          • Pacificweather

            I think they were just later getting television but they made up for it by giving us Montalbano.

          • mohdanga

            Idiots like Abie Vee think that every non-white foreign culture is just fine staying that way but if England doesn’t infect itself with every other culture it is somehow a backwater.

          • Atticus

            Are you even British, Abie Vee? You either have little understanding of us, or you just hate us for reasons I can’t really comprehend.

            What concerns me is that I have met many of your type in the past, and such people are modern-day fascists, intent on imposing their (very misguided) will on others.

          • Abie Vee

            “Us”! US!!! How dare you. I have traced my family origins back as far as parish records go. I have every right to my opinion, my birthright in fact, and I refuse absolutely to be defined by you! Whoever you are.

            “Fascist”? You got the analogy wrong. I’m just the kid at the side of the road yelling “The Emperor’s got no clothes!”

          • Birch2015

            Yelling fairy tales, next it will be don’t buy Rubles, because thats fascist too, it seems your of the opinion anything against the EU is ‘fascist’, i think you mean ‘systemic of economic problems’ but i think its paranoia, no one needs that in a democratic country, psychology is the moralising faculty of any nation that chooses democracy.

          • Abie Vee

            I can’t make head nor tail of that petty tirade. Nope. Perhaps you care to elucidate when you sober up?

          • burberryblue

            “I have every right to my opinion, ”
            Didn’t you say earlier that people in the UK no longer have rights?

          • Sam Carruthers

            “We have lost our Empire” Well we will have done when we are out of the EU. “meanwhile the rest of us move on”. Move on where? How can you justify that being a member of the EU is moving on? Is Norway not moving on? What are you talking about? “Little Englander” is just name calling. An by the way there hasn’t been a little Englander since our 300 year old union.

          • Abie Vee

            All of a piece. The whole debate boils down to England’s lost place in the world. It seems you people no longer wish to live in the present. Dreams of yesteryear are slowly consuming you. 300 years ago? about right.

          • mohdanga

            Yup, Little England that has let in millions of unassimilating, enriching 3rd worlders that have provided zero benefit to the country as well as tens of thousands of foreign students who are going to move back to their home countries to work for a $1 a day in order to destroy the UK.

          • Abie Vee

            Meanwhile… we are the fifth or sixth largest economy in the world. What yo got Huckleberry?.

          • mohdanga

            On one hand you say Britain can’t compete with the $1 a day slave wages and then on the other you brag about the British economy being the 5th largest in the world. The British economy isn’t being helped by millions of 3rd worlders who don’t contribute but suck off the social system (funded by massive borrowing) so obviously in spite of this the Little Englanders still manage to build a First World economy. So carry on with your delusions.

          • Abie Vee

            Gosh, this meandering and seemingly aimless stroll through the smoke-rings of your mind is going to be jolly hard to follow. I’ll take it one step at a time…

            (1) Um, yes, Britain cannot possibly compete with the wage slaves of Asia in manufacturing goods. They can beat us any day, hands down (don’t you know that Huckleberry?)

            (2) Yes, the UK is indeed one of the top five economies in the world.

            (3). Immigrants? you’d be gob-smacked at how industrious these people are. After all, they didn’t come here to starve.. they can do that at home!

            Other than that, you’ve lost me in the dense and tangled undergrowth of your thought processes.

          • mohdanga

            Hey bogan, try using that thing in your head called a brain. Britain and the West compete using high skilled innovation, not manufacturing t-shirts and running shoes.

            “Immigrants? you’d be gob-smacked at how industrious these people are. After all, they didn’t come here to starve.. they can do that at home!” Give this man a prize for the goofiest comment of the year! You mean all those immigrants on social assistance, is that what you define as ‘industrious’?? How did the UK ever manage to survive without them? 75% of Muslim women and 50% of Muslim men don’t work, the Somalians are in the range of about 85%. But the answer is more of the same. You are a laugh a minute, dimwit.

          • Abie Vee

            Allow me: “Britain and the West compete using high skilled innovation, not manufacturing t-shirts and running shoes.”

            Gosh… there’s a thing. For now. But, as I write, our, yours, America’s, Universities are chock-a-bloc full of Asian students.

            So here we are, smug in a puddle of warm complacency, kidding ourselves that we have the answer to the low-wage, low-skill East. That’s OK we tell ourselves, we’ll just upskill our kids.

            BUT… here’s the chink in the armor… what answer do we have to low-wage high skill work? Er… none.

            What DO you think these people are doing flooding the West’s universities … learning how to open corner shops? No… they are the engineers, the scientists, the architects, the IT specials of tomorrow… and they will do high quality work for half the price we can.

            I know you’re a Hayseed out in the wind-swept middle of nowhere, but every study carried out in this country proves conclusively that immigrants are not a drain on resources: indeed almost all studies show they are net contributors to the economy.

            Now English people have a lot of trouble understanding the word “net”. Only a tiny word but they simply don’t get it. Do you prairie dogs have the same problem?

            [your figures are completely bogus.. did you make them up?]

          • mohdanga

            And why are Canadian, Australian, US and UK universities full of Chinese students? Could it be because they pay about 5x the tuition that a native born student pays? Foreign students are a huge source of income for the Australian education system. I live a less than a mile from one of the world’s foremost universities for computer science and engineering (a university with a student population of 40,000, out in the ‘wind swept middle of nowhere’, at least according to you) and it is probably 50% Chinese students…they are here because the university administrators can pad their cushy salaries and gold plated benefits with the money received from these students. They aren’t any smarter than the students that were born here.

            “…but every study carried out in this country proves conclusively that immigrants are not a drain on resources: indeed almost all studies show they are net contributors to the economy.” Another laughable comment. If all these immigrants are not a drain why are social services, schools, hospitals, housing, etc maxed out dealing with the huge influx of immigrants? Why does the UK run massive deficits and have huge debt? Yes, yes, we know, it’s the ‘banksters’ fault not the hardworking immigrants. Oh, wait, what’s this: “MigrationWatch reports that: “For example, compared with the UK average of 22% of the working age population being economically inactive, Somali, Bangladeshi, Pakistani and Iranian immigrants are likely to be 81%, 56%, 55% and 48% economically inactive respectively” . So one can see how lucky the indigenous Brits are to have these immigrants ‘to do the jobs the Brits won’t’.

            Here’s some interesting facts which I’m sure you will ignore: “Recent immigrants impose a fiscal burden on Canadian taxpayers of about $20 billion annually due to the fact that they earn less and pay less taxes than the benefits they receive from government spending. The economic benefits from the complementarity of immigrant and native labour raising the wages of both and economies of scale due to immigration, the reduction in the unfunded liabilities of social programs, the foreign investment in immigrant human capital, and others are non-existent, or very small, in relation to the size of the fiscal burden.” http://www.fraserinstitute.org/uploadedFiles/fraser-ca/Content/research-news/research/publications/canadas-immigrant-selection-policies.pdf

          • Abie Vee

            Give over with the Red Herrings, I can hardly breathe for the smell: in the UK it is not compulsory to work. I live in the middle of North London’s large orthodox Jewish community and, as in many cultures, the women here mainly take care of the children and the house. Now that may offend some people, but personally I don’t give a shjt.

            “Laughable”? You too eh… unable to comprehend the meaning of the most simple word: net. Net is net regardless of Migration Watch and its dubious outdated statistics. A net gain to the economy is what the government and all other surveys find. Sure there’s pressure on the infrastructure, infrastructure is always and ever underfunded by the Tories: my own Tory Borough built four affordable rental properties in the last financial year. Yup: four. They do not have a waiting list any longer because it is pointless… you’d wait for eternity.

            I’m not interested in Canada’s problems. As in the UK, a people get the government it deserves.

            Far east students are here because they fully understand the advantages of a good education. I doubt many of the British do. We are world leaders in drop-out rates from secondary education, and in international studies of IQ and educational attainment the UK is beaten by South Korea, Japan, China, Singapore and Taiwan.

            You see the day is coming: our smug self-superiority, our complacency will be shattered in due course. Personally, if I’m still alive, I shall laugh my t*ts off.

          • mohdanga

            Err, please contrast the immigration rates into the UK over the past 30 years of orthodox Jews to that of Muslims (and actual population) and get back to us on which group is more likely to be a drain on the economy. I’d hazard to say it’s not the Jews. Are there any gov’t agencies dedicated specifically to Jews as there are to Muslims? Are gov’t agencies working on why there is a radicalization problem with orthodox Jews? Any massive demonstrations by Jews demanding ‘Death to the Muslims’ in London lately?
            The problems of mass immigration to the UK, western Europe, Australia, Canada and the US are the same: massive strain on social services, more debt, more deficits, more ethnic ghettoes, more restrictions on freedom of speech on the indigenous population, British suburbs turning into 3rd world foreign cr*pholes. The list of enrichment is endless. But continue to believe in your mass immigration, multiculti fairytale.
            It’s funny that you mention that studies of IQ show SE Asian countries having better scores than the UK. Now, had someone said that the IQs of British white students are better than that of Africans and Arabs (a fact) you’d be on the barricades screaming ‘racism’. Typical left wing hypocrisy, perhaps you should check yourself into sensitivity training.
            If Chinese students are so smart why do they come here to our universities? Wouldn’t their own universities suffice? After all, these supposedly higher IQ Chinese would surely have the wherewithal to build superior universities? If British students don’t understand the value of good education why do so many want to go to university?
            Why you lefties are so intent on destroying your own country and culture in order to bring in the barbarians is puzzling. You are deluded if you think that these enrichers will improve your lot…but you will get your wish soon enough and I’m sure you will “laugh your t*ts off.” Have fun.

          • Abie Vee

            No dear… no matter how many was you cook your herrings, they’re still fishy. Immigrants are a net gain for the UK economy. Net. Net Net.

            I’m not interested in your demographics. Of no concern to the UK. Zilch.

            I don’t see how internationally accepted figures are racist in any way. There are tables of all sorts, life span, happiness, height, are they all racist> hahaha… have fun with that one. But I’ll tell you what is: it is racist is to imply (as you do), without summoning a single shed of empirical evidence to support your antediluvian notions, that the Chinese people are inherently less intelligent than the white man. That’s racism old chap plain and simple.

            Plenty of UK youngsters want to go to uni. So what? What TF is that supposed to mean (are you right in the head, I’m beginning to wonder)? That inanity does not negate the fact that many, by a country mile, do not do so because they do not have the enrty qualifications; nor does it negate the fact that we have possibly the highest drop-out rates from secondary education among our main competitors and high levels of poorly educated unskilled youths without any form of work. There are no night schools anymore, and no technical colleges… all done away in the name of Thatcherism.

            There is no such thing as “mass” immigration. There is only immigration and emigration. Europeans are free to travel throughout the EU. Non-EU immigration is controlled by the Government. In fact, heavily involved in it as I personally am, it is so draconian, senseless, ever-changing, and so unfathomable that neither the Home Office, the Home Secretary, nor her highly paid advocates fully understand it. I know. I have defeated them in Court twice. Third time coming up.

            In our country will will soon have over 20 million pensioners. For the first time in our recorded history the over 65s outnumber the under 16s. Because of lifestyle changes and improved medical care, our people are living longer than ever before: a baby girl born today will have every expectation of living to 100.

            Given our woeful productivity levels (far worse than many of our main competitors) it currently takes four men in full time work to support one pensioner. No doubt productivity levels will improve, but Government forecasts are that a UK population of 80 million will be needed. Meanwhile, the native-born birth rate has fallen below the natural replacement level.

            So where do we go from here? Growth is the only logical answer. And growth requires, among many variables, people. Jobs do not create people, people create jobs (and wealth).

          • mohdanga

            Instead of relying on the immigration industry and gov’ts beholden to immigration (because they are afraid of stopping it for being branded ‘racist’) why not pull your head out of your *ss and look at what is happening on the street? Are indigenous Brits satisfied or dissatisfied with seeing their culture changed and cities overrun with foreigners? Birmingham is almost 25% Muslim…how do the natives feel about this?
            As for your assertion that demography is of no concern to the UK, that shows the depth of your intelligence. The gov’t has let in millions of Muslims and other 3rd worlders on the false assumption that these illiterate and low skilled people will somehow miraculously save the British economy. It is a lie. Muslims are expected to be anywhere from 25-40% of the population within a generation or so (their population doubles every 10 years) so I’ll let you figure out if this means a more tolerant and liberal society or less.
            The Chinese export their students to the West’s better educational institutions; not sure why it is ‘racist’ to question why if they are so smart (as you keep saying) that they can’t start universities that are equivalent to the West’s. The Chinese are great at copying and stealing industrial secrets (even Obama mentioned this in the last few days), not so good at innovation. But the words ‘racist’ and ‘bigot’ are bandied about so often by lefties like you to try and shut down debate that they have lost their meaning.
            So keep up your ‘net, net, net’ mantra if it makes you feel good. The actual evidence suggests otherwise (more deficits, more debt, more strain on social services, etc). No answer for that I see.

          • Abie Vee

            Meanwhile, back in the real world…

          • Gary Barnacle

            If we had not joined the common market we would still have a
            large fishing industry, the Coal industry would not have become uneconomic, due
            to subseries, paid to other countries, that made our unsubsidised coal
            uneconomic to get out of the ground, we would still have a steel industry again
            wiped out by subseries paid to other countries, we would not have out UK jobs
            advertised by foreran job agencies, and
            not in the UK, we would still be able to make our own laws, and look at what
            the eventual, object of the EU is to dissolve parliament and force direct rule
            from Europe, resulting the loss of free healthcare, the EU only helps the Super
            rich, to the detriment of the majority.

          • Abie Vee

            If, if, if… the undoubted luxury of hypothesis, eh?

            You seem to think that the future for the UK lies in a head-to-head confrontation with the £1 per day wage-slaves of Asia. Backwards to the future, as ever with you people.

            I’ve got news for you: for us the coal and steel age has gone. This is 2015.

          • Pacificweather

            We would not have a large fishing industry because we are surrounded by Ireland, Norway, Iceland and France. When we had eaten all our own fish do you think they would let us eat theirs. We would what we have today, a small coastal fishing fleet and a small deep sea fleet.

          • ThinkerStinker

            It’s exactly because of the EU Common Fisheries Policy and plundering of our waters by Spanish fishing fleets et al, often flouting the EU’s own quota rules that have virtually destroyed the UK fishing industry.

          • Pacificweather

            Eating too much fish destroyed the fishing industry. Herring was gone before the idea of a common market had entered anyone’s brain. If your complaint is that the UK government was derelict in its duty in policing British waters to ensure compliance then you can hardly blame the EU for that. I suspect that you think the EU fishing policy depleted the Grand Banks and endangered the Yellow Fin Tuna. By contrast, the New Zealand government closed the fishing grounds. The fisherment moaned and cried just like our fisherment did but a few years later they went down on their knees to thank their government as the fishing stocks slowly increased. The problem with quotas was that the quotas were to large and fisherman are slow to learn. The EU must take responsibility for that.

          • Abie Vee

            Fish, forestry and farming account for about half a percent of GDP. What do you actually want? To turn us back to Yeomen farmers? I know you people dwell in the past… I didn’t realise just how far.

            I think you’ll find our mining industry was closed down because of the Tories relentless class-war.

            The East has industrialised. Haven’t you noticed? Do you really think there’s money to be had by going head to head with the £1 a day wage-slaves of Asia? Do me a favour. For developed economies like ours, the coal and steel age is over.

            It seems the events of the past 31 years have passed you by. Thatcher unleashed deregulated markets onto the unsuspecting public back in 84… the suicidal “voodoo economics ” of the Chicago School, a school of macroeconomics that argues that economic growth can be most effectively created by lowering barriers for people to produce goods and services as well as invest in capital. Typical policy recommendations of supply-side economists are lower marginal tax rates and deregulation, privatisation of state assets, the destruction of the ability of Trade Unions to protect employees rights, terms and conditions of employment.

            You are in for a very rude awakening shortly: wait until TTIP gets here (Cameron’s pet baby) here… then you can finally wave goodbye to your democracy.

          • Johnny Foreigner

            All these facts, how about this one, before Mrs Thatch, Labour closed more mines down than the Tories ever did. Zing……………

          • Abie Vee

            Good grief. :Labour didn’t go to war with the working class in order to do so: they closed loss-making pits with the full cooperation of the National Union of Mineworkers.

            Whereas, in her lust for vengeance, Thatcher gleefully threw the baby out with the bath water. Zing… (there are three dots in an ellipsis, Johnny Foreigner, thus… three).

          • Johnny Foreigner

            I refuse to play bat & ball, but will say this, there may have been a tinge of vengeance in Mrs Thatch’s mind (who really knows), but was it having to deal with Arthur Moron Scargill or could it have something to do with Ted The Appendage Chomper Heath, can I tease this one out of you? Make sure the word ‘Blackmail’ features at least somewhere in your answer.

          • Abie Vee

            “Who knows” I do. 30 years ago in a well reported speech, Margaret Thatcher branded Arthur Scargill and the 1984-5 striking miners as “the enemy within”‘. That’s pretty clear to me.

          • ThinkerStinker

            TTIP is the pet project, baby, of the EU as well. What does that tell you about the EU?

          • Abie Vee

            Nuffin. It tells me al ot about Cameron… he could veto the lot. Instead of that he’s driving it through.

            What does that tell you?

          • norman’s nonsense

            TTIP… well said.. a very big danger

          • Johnny Foreigner

            I bet you’ve been through a few scraps.

          • Philsopinion

            ”Global capitalism, the free market, new technology, sets wage levels now. All beyond your control.”

            Except given that these are not actually abstractions but human relationships, they are entirely within our control. And the closer that control is to people, they better they will be able to use it.

            You write from a left wing perspective yet refuse to acknowledge that the EU has become a front for multinational corporations. You ignore the fact that many local industries cannot be protected from international monopolies precisely because the EU enforces ”competition” rules.

            As such, I fail to see what brains you are using in this debate.

          • Abie Vee

            “the EU has become a front for multinational corporations.”

            Do tell. As has the USA and the UK and most of the world with the exceptions of China and Russia and, to a lesser extent, Japan.

            Did I argue otherwise? It’s all of a piece.

            The “people” have no say in this. Trade Union power is relentlessly attacked as low wages proliferate, living standards fall, zero-hours minimum-wage contracts abound. A two-tier legal system evolves and poverty increases as the middle-classes are decimated. Manufacturing industry slowly declines to an irrelevance and state assets are sold-off at knockdown prices to any Johnny Foreigner with the dosh. Meanwhile, Cameron is hard at work on behalf of global capitalism, “rolling back the state” and pushing TTIP on the EU. (wait and see what THAT particular scam does to your so-called democracy and your so-called sovereignty).

            The people, even governments, are powerless to stop this rapine, this global kleptocracy, this neo-feudalism. The public are offered the choice at election time of austerity or austerity lite. No wonder four in ten people don’t see the point in voting… it seems to them that no matter how they vote, the outcome’s the same.

            The global free market is inherently anti-democratic… while the public are encouraged to focus their attention on immigration, entire industries , manufacturing, services, people, can be switched abroad at the click of a mouse.

            Oh yes, the politicians say, there’s no point in going head to head with the £1 a day wage slaves of Asia, the answer is to upskill the workforce! Thus we can cope with a low-wage low skill opposition.

            Really? The UK , Australia and America’s universities are crammed full of Asia’s brightest and best. What do you think they are doing here, learning how to be assembly-line automatons, corner-shop keepers?

            The West has no answer to this looming low-wage high skill opposition! Just as in manufacturing , Asia will soon be providing first class engineers, architects, designers, inventors, scientists, lawyers prepared to do top class professional services for a fraction of the cost of their Western colleagues.

            Then what? Well, it’s simple: that is when the entire system implodes. Riots, risings and revolution. JUST as Marx predicted.

            And by gosh will it be a painful time.

          • Philsopinion

            ”Do tell.”

            Are you saying now that the EU which you were previously defending is not a front for MNCs?

            ”The “people” have no say in this.”

            Well, they do if they really want to. Given your pseudo Marxist analysis, you seem to be ignorant of what I addressed in my original comment – all the systems in the world are human systems and as such they can be changed by humans.

            ”Trade Union power is relentlessly attacked as low wages proliferate, living standards fall, zero-hours minimum-wage contracts abound.”

            The Trade Unions only have themselves to blame. Governments can only get away with attacking what is already unpopular or irrelevant. I left my Union (Unite) after they left me twisting in the wind when I tried to organise in a zero hours workplace. They did so through pure bone idle laziness.

            ”A two-tier legal system evolves and poverty increases as the middle-classes are decimated.”

            Since when has the left been bothered about the middle class?

            ”Meanwhile, Cameron is hard at work on behalf of global capitalism, “rolling back the state” and pushing TTIP on the EU. (wait and see what THAT particular scam does to your so-called democracy and your so-called sovereignty).”

            No, Cameron is in full agreement with the EU Commission that TTIP is the way forward. Barroso and Juncker are the advanced guard for TTIP in the EU.

            ”The people, even governments, are powerless to stop this rapine, this global kleptocracy, this neo-feudalism.”

            Except they aren’t. Human made systems can and always are overturned by other human made systems. This accelerationist cant is embarrassing.

            ”The public are offered the choice at election time of austerity or austerity lite. No wonder four in ten people don’t see the point in voting… it seems to them that no matter how they vote, the outcome’s the same.”

            The public were offered the left wing Greens and they rejected them and their infantile agenda.

            ”The global free market is inherently anti-democratic… while the public are encouraged to focus their attention on immigration,”

            Except it is the public which have finally forced the politicians to act on mass immigration – a process which no one was consulted about, which is transforming many communities beyond recognition and which is the global face of the anti-democratic free market you decry.

            ”entire industries , manufacturing, services, people, can be switched abroad at the click of a mouse.”

            And new ones can be built in their place.

            ”Oh yes, the politicians say, there’s no point in going head to head with the £1 a day wage slaves of Asia, the answer is to upskill the workforce! Thus we can cope with a low-wage low skill opposition.”

            Except they say the opposite, they say we have to be competitive. Where do you get this drivel from? You are astonishingly arrogant about your misinformed views.

            ”The UK , Australia and America’s universities are crammed full of Asia’s brightest and best.”

            I can’t speak for America and Australia but working first at Manchester University and now Liverpool, I can state for definite that our Asian students are most definitely not the ‘best and the brightest’ – they are for the most part the sons and daughters of wealthy families who want the prestige of a Western education. Their English skills and critical thinking abilities are woeful and even my right on PC obsessed colleagues are telling management that they are bringing standards down. Lecturers are regularly warning British students to not take particular courses because they will be disrupted by Chinese students who haven’t a clue what’s going on because they spend most of the day speaking Mandarin in closed groups. Other foreign students express similar frustrations that they are not studying in a fully English speaking environment.

            ”What do you think they are doing here, learning how to be assembly-line automatons, corner-shop keepers?”

            They’re bourgeois kids on holiday for the most part.

            ”The West has no answer to this looming low-wage high skill opposition! Just as in manufacturing , Asia will soon be providing first class engineers, architects, designers, inventors, scientists, lawyers prepared to do top class professional services for a fraction of the cost of their Western colleagues.”

            Again you seem to have not have heard of trade barriers, and protectionism. You seem to forget that all those things will be needed locally and as such will be provided locally.

            ”Then what? Well, it’s simple: that is when the entire system implodes. Riots, risings and revolution. JUST as Marx predicted.”

            Except all of Marx’s other predictions have been wrong and there is no inherent reason why this won’t either. Go back to your sixth form college and start again.

            ”And by gosh will it be a painful time.”

            Another example of why the Left singularly fails to inspire or motivate people.

          • Abie Vee

            I am saying that the free market controls the world. Can’t you read? A Brexit will not make the least dent in that. Not the slightest.

            *Tsk… you can read, apparently, but you can’t assimilate. What I said was that the system will collapse. At which point the “people” will have the biggest say in what comes next. Until that collapse, and painful reorganisation, they are powerless. Bankers, captains of industry, hedge-fund investors, the rich, the elite are not elected, thus beyond popular democratic control.

            *You really do not understand the situation. This is a global economy, no one country can hope confront it and survive: a global problem will require a global solution.

            *We are NOT “bothered about the middle class”. I am merely stating the obvious. In my life time, one middle class man could support a large family and a mortgage on his earnings alone. That is no longer possible. Both partners now have to toil to pay the mortgage. Family life is destroyed. Careers are a thing of the past in industry and business… there are no more jobs for life… we are all proletarians now (though the middle class doesn’t yet realise it).

            *”And new ones can be built in their place.” Jaw-droppingly naive. By whom? By the self same owners who have moved them abroad? By the self same government who sold them off in the first place?

            By what means are these people to be induced? Why… by lower wages… it’s called the race to the bottom you foolish man.

            * Your complacency is truly astonishing. Some upgraded polytechnics may well be getting second raters; in fact I’m told that the brightest students from India and China do not come here from choice! Not to mention the fact that your ” bourgeois kids on holiday” slur is truly patronising,condescending and belittling, no to mention bordering on racist abuse: you imply that these other lesser races are not up to our levels of ability. There’s no evidence for such antediluvian claptrap (and you know that). You should be ashamed of posting such rubbish. And you work in a “University” do you? What do you do… clean the floors?

            *I know full well the implications of protectionism. Indeed, when the free markets collapse, as they inevitably will, that will be the likely outcome…. a return to national sovereignty. This present supply-side experiment is not the natural order of things. Historically the USA most of all has been avowedly protectionist. Now their working people, like ours, are paying the burden of this economic aberration. Meanwhile, in the global free market, there are no means open to you for protectionist trade wars. You’ll lose in five minutes.

            * All of Marx’s other prediction have proved wrong? Like what?

          • mohdanga

            “Not to mention the fact that your ” bourgeois kids on holiday” slur is truly patronising,condescending and belittling, not to mention bordering on racist abuse: you imply that these are other lesser races and not up to our levels of ability. There’s no evidence for such antediluvian claptrap (and you know that). ”
            “Racist abuse”. Hilarious comment….typical of the left when they can’t argue with facts. Back to the sandbox for you.

          • Abie Vee

            Yes, and your response is typical of those Billy No-brains who can’t actually tackle the point and resort to the old ad hominems for want of anything else to say..

            Have you followed the thread? Would you care to make a comment of some relevance, no matter how opaque, rather that blow raspberries from off stage?

            Is it really that boring so Canada that you’ve nothing else to do than fart from afar?

          • mohdanga

            Spoken from Mr. Mensa himself. As for making irrelevant and illogical comments, time for a glimpse in the mirror.

          • Abie Vee

            ditto

          • Pacificweather

            The children of Chinese peasants can afford £15,000 a year plus accommodation cost to get A levels in Britain followed by a similar amount a year for a university degree? Gosh, I wish I was a Chinese peasant; I could send the Housing Benefit back.

          • Philsopinion

            If they arent bourgeois, how do they afford the extortionate fees?

            The evidence is in my classroom, in my colleagues’ classrooms and all across the country. It will make it to the newspapers at some point soon.

            Im afraid the days of people being bullied by the accusation of “racism” are over.

          • Abie Vee

            Simple my dear… they BOTH have to work. Whereas, one could pay for it all. That is, um, a 50% reduction on disposable income. GO figure.

          • Abie Vee

            I’ll tell you: they get nothing from the state. These people know one thing that our people have forgotten (having had it too easy): education is everything. Their extended families all contribute… they fully understand education is the only way out of poverty. We have a better idea.. chuck all the foreigners out and someone will employ us.

            They could teach us a thing or two. Especially toilet-cleaners. “Your classroom” Ha! Your cubicle.

            So according to you own testimony you’re earning money under false pretences/… a thief.

          • Philsopinion

            These are the people who control the State. They aren’t looking for a way out of poverty – theyre the bourgeois.

            So save the xenophillia.

            And if youre so down with the workers, why would you criticise a lowly toilet cleaner like me? Youre a middle class student playing at revolutionaries for a few years arent you?

          • Abie Vee

            There are no bourgeoisie in a communist countries. Back to your bogs.

            So these spoilt brats of your imagination are all over here on holiday. In which case, they must be stupid as you say… else why wouldn’t they go to The Gold Coast instead? Cheaper than London, closer to home, and better surf!

            What bullshjt. You couldn’t make it up Mrs May.

          • Philsopinion

            “Our people have had it too easy”

            Scratch a liberal, find a Tory.

          • Abie Vee

            “Our people have had it too easy” Relatively compared to East Asia.

            Nothing worse than a pedant on your tail… or a grammar fascist, Philistinian, eh?

          • Pacificweather

            Whilst all that may be true and the Chinese one child policy ensures that parents invest in their child, the ones who come to our 6th form colleges and universities aren’t the children of peasants or even what we used to call the working class. The rich send their children to American universities and the middle class send their child to Britain.

          • Abie Vee

            That of course speaks volumes about second-rate British education.

            The rich (per se) end their children to Oxford, Cambridge, St Andrews LSE ICL and Durham (in no particular order). Twas ever thus.

            I see you’ve dropped the racist nonsense. The cheek of them eh… talking to each other in their own language! Your other fatuous remarks remain unsubstantiated (other than by dubious anecdote). You have failed entirely to refute my proposition: that eventually Asia will match the west in high skill professions. Their children are sent abroad for that very purpose.

            East Asian countries already top global league tables for educational performance and IQ levels. OECD refers. Their time is coming… Hong Kong, South Korea, Singapore, Taiwan and China all outperform the UK in average IQ.

          • Pacificweather

            Check who you replied to. Your response is about nothing I wrote.

          • Abie Vee

            If you knew anything at all about eastern cultures (which you certainly don’t) you’d know that because there is no state-support they rely upon their extended families and their savings. They are great hoarders of money.

            One of the reasons Japan’s economy has not been growing as fast as it might, is that they REFUSE to borrow to spend. They look upon bank overdrafts with horror. If they want a new car they work hard and save hard and negotiate hard when they’ve the wherewithal to do so.

            Racism and ignorance are one and the same thing… the one begets the other. Take your pick!

            ps I’ll tell you what has made it to the newspapers: Overseas students contribute £23 billion net to London’s economy annually. NET, my Philistinian.

          • mohdanga

            “I can’t speak for America and Australia but working first at Manchester University and now Liverpool, I can state for definite that our Asian students are most definitely not the ‘best and the brightest’ – they are for the most part the sons and daughters of wealthy families who want the prestige of a Western education. Their English skills and critical thinking abilities are woeful and even my right on PC obsessed colleagues are telling management that they are bringing standards down. Lecturers are regularly warning British students to not take particular courses because they will be disrupted by Chinese students who haven’t a clue what’s going on because they spend most of the day speaking Mandarin in closed groups. Other foreign students express similar frustrations that they are not studying in a fully English speaking environment.”
            Same thing here in Canada, universities have been swamped by Chinese students allowed in by university administrators who love the fact that they will pay 5x the tuition of a Canadian born student. As there is a physical limit to the number of students a university can cope with, the Canadian students get pushed out in favour of high paying, non-English speaking foreigners….all in the name of ‘diversity’ and ‘enhancing the reputation of Canada’ of course. I have several friends whose children attend a local university which has been inundated with Chinese students and their experience is the same as yours. The Chinese aren’t the best students (as the propaganda says) and they don’t integrate. So much for diversity!!

          • Philsopinion

            It’s a scam, mate – everyone but the university managers are being ripped off.

          • Pacificweather

            At our local independent 6th form college the Chinese students complained that it wasn’t international enough because there were too many Chinese students. They were not happy with the situation either. The college did reduce the number but it has struggled to replace them with students from other countries to its financial cost.

          • Pacificweather

            Human systems can be overturned by other human made systems but it usually involves guns and dead bodies so the majority tend to let the rich and powerful get on with it whilst trying to sell them water sports equipment.

          • W3ST3RN INFID3L

            Old thread I know, but I did enjoy reading your comment

          • Pacificweather

            Was it the EU that decided to use £13.7 billion of British taxpayers’s money every year to stimulate the immigration of foreign low paid workers to Britain? That employer subsidy for 3.2 million people in full time work was the crazy notion of the British governments; all three of them.

          • burberryblue

            “As I said, because something hasn’t hasn’t happened yet it doesn’t mean to say that it can’t or won’t happen at all.”

            Nor does it mean it will happen.

            Also, depends what it is. If you drop a bowling ball out of a window, you know it’s going to hit something below it.

            “Global capitalism, the free market, new technology, sets wage levels now.”

            You’re saying that private enterprise set and voluntarily pays the minimum wage?

            When did that happen?

      • burberryblue

        Sovereignty means that nations can run their affairs as their people choose, even if that ends up in someone declaring war on them. It’s still their choice.

        There is no such thing as a “free market”, so nothing could have been destroyed by it.

        We are not in austerity — the UK’s national debt is going up, not down.

        You do make some good points about personal freedom, though.

        And why just pray for riots? Why not start one?

      • global city

        That really is a silly line to pursue. political integration is tangible…and an EU drive .

        Perhaps you will be happy living under the benign rule of technocrats, but most people won’t

        • Abie Vee

          We have no choice. Democracy is dead.

          I hate living under the destructive effects of the free market… the supply-side experiment of the Chicago-school’s voodoo economics. I see destruction all around me. and nation-states are powerless in its grip… the decent world of social democracy in which I grew up is just a memory.

          Most people aren’t aware of their situation… while their pockets are being picked, the nomenclatura has them looking at immigrants. No one has told them that they live in a gigantic neo-feudal corporatist kleptocracy.

          The whole schmeer will self-destruct one day. Until it does, I am content to stay right where I am… this is no time for swashbuckling adventurism. There’s safety in numbers.

          In the words of Jefferson: we must all hang together, or most assuredly we will hang together.

          • global city

            Is that fatalism that I read?

            it is not the free market that has screwed democracy, but corporatism and statism.

            The EU is the perfect vehicle for advancing those two shitty impositions until they destroy everything. Leaving the EU is, sadly not an act of swashbuckling adventurism….if only it were. All it is is a reset baseline. From that resetting what happens subsequently could be up to us all as a community of interest…OR we could vote for the same old turds who will press their sordid agendas through international and intergovernmental agents instead.

            I would love to see a Royal Commission or similar into the cumulative effect all of these extragovernmental treaties and commitments have had on our ability to regain a functioning democracy.

            We may be closer on the broad issues than you currently think, blinded as you are by a partiular take on the EU that has not realised the consequences of ever closer union under structures they have no intention of changing.

          • Abie Vee

            Now you’re just playing semantics again. Corporatism, free markets, one and the same: the one begets the other..

            What little resistance remains to these mechanisms is alive and well in some of the EU member states. The UK is not one of them: in or out of the EU you will carry your parasites with you wherever you go. There is no escape. The EU is the only entity left in the so-called free-world that offers some limitation on global capitalism’s worst excesses, slight though it may be.

            What does “ever closer union” actually mean? Is it, in fact, meaningless. The correct phrase (which you will NEVER read in any UK newspaper, nor hear on any BBC broadcast) is: ” … to lay the foundations of an ever closer union among the peoples of Europe.” It is contained in an amendment to the founding Treaty of Rome, appended to the Maastricht Treaty in 1992 by John Major. It’s OUR amendment FFS! So WHY do you never hear it in full, and in it’s context?

            An ever closer union among the peoples of Europe? An admirable ambition in my book. We had some similar notion foisted upon us in the Boy Scouts as I remember.

            What’s the alternative, retreat from the people’s of Europe? Well it sure looks that way for the UK.

          • global city

            Corporatism and free markets to not go hand in hand.

            You have also either fell into the trap, or are playing the integrationists game for them, when you question whether ‘ever closer union’ has any meaningful impact or direction. That is the core remit that the ECJ referrers too when ever they get a difficult question… it is evident in every treaty and is part of the drive we see every day in the EU parliament and reports of the work of the Commission. It means what it says. Moving forward this means Brussels ownership of defence, taxation and law…and, er, money.

            Ever closer union of the peoples’ of Europe is not some woolly thing that we should celebrate, it is about the direction of travel in a governmental organisation that takes up competences in fields ceded by democratic institutions.

            Leaving the EU would not be retreating from the peoples’ of Europe, but disentangling ourselves from political institutions that strip away popular control of the law makers.

    • global city

      I agree. Also all the same old demagogues, petit princes, Imperialists, ideologues land land grabbers are still on the continental political scene. the only difference they are all riding the same EU horse

  • Ron

    We are divided and it’s as finite as the Catholic versus Church of England with regrettably a large rump of don’t knows and couldn’t care less. Everyone one involved will look after there own interests. There is no guidance from Government. I think the whole process is a very sad affair and will leave us rather like Italy was after it sewed itself together in the 19th century.

  • jim

    Don’t tell us.We already know this. Tell the cloned re- programmed sock puppets who believe all the drivel spewed out by the BBCGuardian .

  • Mary Ann

    “how to answer them” and never mind the truth.

    • John Carins

      The truth hurts?

  • So, your going to pay £7.5 billion in tariff costs. In a Customs Union, these go straight into the EU’s coffers – thank you very much says Brussels.

    Then you’ve got you university funding, and you’ve got Eurocontrol, and then you have the smaller programmes like maritime surveillance, food supplier certification, contribution to the global anti-dumping database, and all the other cooperative programmes that are worked through Brussels .. to say nothing of the EDA, which is managing the A-400M programme. On a per capita basis, using Norway as a measure, that’s about £3.5 billion.

    Then we’ve got CAP replacement costs, and CFP replacement … about £3 billion.

    So far, that’s about £13 billion, to which we have to add solidarity costs (if we still want a stable Eastern Europe), and then the costs of our own regional programme … add both in at about £2 billion. That brings it to about £15 billion …

    And our reason for getting out of the EU was?

    • David

      Democracy. I’ll just remind you what that means…

      Our right to vote in or out the politicians that run our country and make our laws.

      Currently, only about a third of laws in the UK are made here, everything else comes from Brussels.

      Democracy – you won’t miss it until it has gone.

      • Pacificweather

        What an interesting coincidence. One third of the laws are made in the UK by a goverment elected by one third of the votes. Another coincidence, one third of MPs are elected by a majority of the votes cast by their constituents. Spooky stuff this democracy malarkey.

    • Johnny Foreigner

      I read your post twice, no democracy, no border control, a lot of the cost mentioned, might not even be needed if we concentrate on trading with the rest of the world. There’s a brave new world out there, a mountain or maybe just a hillock to get over, when out of the EU.

      • That may indeed be the case, and I wouldn’t disagree with you at all. But there are also those who are telling us that we should get out of the EU because we would save loads’a money.

        Not such a lot from the look of it.

  • MartinC

    My favorite is No. 4, Human rights will disappear. as though human rights were only invented by Labour in 1997 when Tony and Cherie incorporated the ECHR into British law.
    In this, the 800th anniversary of Magna Carta which gave us the concept of supremacy of rule of Law over agency of State, which gave us Habeas Corpus and trial by Jury … europhiles would have it that the font of human rights in this country is Tony Blair in 1997 and before that we didn’t have any.
    Arrant nonsense of course.

    • Pacificweather

      Habeus Corpus also gave us the police force most sued (they always settle out of court) for abuse of the civil liberties of the citizens protected by Habeus Corpus and Magna Carta.

  • Hermine Funkington-Rumpelstilz

    Your point 3 is not even funny.

  • Alpha Farnell

    The left want to stay in the EU because it’s a social-democratic institution that will inflict social-democratic guff on any government in Downing Street including and especially the Tories – that’s all there is to it.

  • Bonkim

    Spot on.

  • Hamburger

    Won´t WW III break out first?

  • derek Drew

    This is a genuine desire for information – fact so far as is possible without political posturing.
    Am I right in thinking that global companies such as Nissan and others, offering badly-needed jobs in the UK in former industrial areas set up plants in Britain as a means of securing a trading-post within the EU? Among the benefits was seen to be the English language as the lingua franca of the organisation.
    Are those jobs at risk if those global companies continue to value that EU facility and simply move, maybe to Ireland?

    • rob232

      As I understand it English speakers all over the world are hired by global companies in such places as the Philipines and India. In Spain, where I live, it is very common to speak to someone in South America when renewing your mobile phone for example. None of these places are in the EU.

  • Gary Barnacle

    This article has obviously been wrighten by someone , been
    paid to twist the facts I have never read so many lies and so many untruths
    since we were told similar things to get us to join in the common market,
    membership has caused far more job losses than it has created, look what EU subseries
    to other countries, has done to our Steel industry, and to our coal industry,
    and what happened to the large expansion that was promised of our now almost non-existent
    fishing fleet, and as regards, foreran trade, how is it that other countries
    that are not members, of the EU, some of which are doing far better as non-members
    than we are as members, I have never read such a load of rubbish in all my
    life.

  • Ποια είναι αλήθει

    Regards number 3, the City will decamp to Edinburgh. SNP will encite English voter to vote No in EU referendum. Demand and win a second independence vote. Then lower taxes to entice banks out of London. Remain in EU and Anglosphere, pay lower taxes and enjoy cheaper property prices will be their offer. It’s all part of Salmond-Sturgeon master plan

    • Pacificweather

      Leaving aside the flawed sequence, it’s a great plan.

    • weejonnie

      Except many large financial institutions were making contingency plans IF the Scots voted for independence to decamp to London. No reason at all why they should want to go and live in auld reekie. (wet, poor housing, culturally starved)

      • Ποια είναι αλήθει

        That’s when England was planning to stay in EU. If England votes to leave, and Scotland achieves independence and elects to remain in EU, the situation will be entirely different.

        During the EU referendum debates, Salmond will be winding up the English by claiming we need Brussels to control the excesses of a Tory dominated Westmister. These claims will have a single purpose, to goad the English in to voting no. Assuming that policy is successful, onthe back of a mandate won in the forth coming Holyrood elections, Sturgeon will then claim a change in the UK settlement and demand a second Scottish independence vote. They will have the backing of the rest of Europe and the International Community. Following a successful independence campaign, they will then begin through a policy of scaremongering and taxation bribes enticing City Banks to relocate north of the border. This is the SNP plan, and Cameron is plating straight into their hands. Make my words.

  • Ποια είναι αλήθει

    4 is sheer complancey

  • Ποια είναι αλήθει

    The age of nation states is ending in the tidal wave of globalism. Soon we will all be slaves of Golman Sachs-Google

  • JoleneWScott

    …. Some time hit the spectator Find Here

  • There’ll be no need for Britain to leave the EU, because Marxists are getting ready to collapse the EU once the emergency situation in the Ukraine is resoled,* upon which a new union with Russia will emerge, a union from the Atlantic to Vladivostok.

    Soviet President Mikhail Gorbachev and Soviet minister of foreign affairs Eduard Shevardnadze on the upcoming new European union with Russia:

    “Editor’s Note: The phrases ‘From the Atlantic to the Urals’, ‘From the Atlantic to Vladivostok’ and ‘From Vancouver to Vladivostok’ are interchangeable in the strategists’ lexicon. In the course of his Nobel Peace Prize Lecture, delivered in Oslo in June 1992, Gorbachev said: ‘Our [sic] vision of the European space from the Atlantic to the Urals is not that of a closed system. Since it includes the Soviet Union [sic], which reaches to the shores of the Pacific, it goes beyond nominal geographical boundaries’. Note that Gorbachev, who had been out of office for six months, referred to the Soviet Union, not Russia. In an interview on Moscow Television on 19 November 1991, Eduard Shevardnadze continued speaking as though he was still Soviet Foreign Minister: ‘I think that the idea of a Common European Home, the building of a united Europe, and I would like to underline today, of great Europe, the building of Great Europe, great, united Europe, from the Atlantic to the Urals, from the Atlantic to Vladivostok, including all our territory, most probably a European-Asian space, this project is inevitable. I am sure that we will come to building a united military space as well. To say more precisely: we will build a united Europe, whose security will be based on the principles of collective security. Precisely, collective security’. These statements by key implementers of the strategy reflect the central strategic objective of asserting ‘irreversible’ Russian/Soviet hegemony over Eurasia, thus establishing the primary geographical component of the intended World Government.” — ‘The Perestroika Deception’, by KGB defector Major Anatoliy Golitsyn.

    http://www.spiritoftruth.org/The_Perestroika_Deception.pdf

    …and here’s more on the upcoming “Atlantic to Vladivostok” union…

    https://web.archive.org/web/20140210090314/http://www.russkiymir.ru/russkiymir/en/publications/interview/interview0004.html

    …and here’s Vladimir Putin in 2012 pushing the new union with Europe…

    “Russia is an inalienable and organic part of Greater Europe and European civilization. Our citizens think of themselves as Europeans. We are by no means indifferent to developments in united Europe.

    That is why Russia proposes moving toward the creation of a common economic and human space from the Atlantic to the Pacific Ocean – a community referred by Russian experts to as “the Union of Europe,” which will strengthen Russia’s potential and position in its economic pivot toward the “new Asia.”‘

    http://valdaiclub.com/politics/39300.html

    When the new “Atlantic to Vladivostok” union materializes, Communist strategists will have achieved two goals, (1) the further isolation of the United States in the world; and (2) the disbanding of NATO.

    The following is a discovery I made only last month regarding the fake collapse of the USSR, and what that fraudulent collapse proves about the institutions of the West…

    When Soviet citizens were liberated from 74 years of Marxist horror on December 26, 1991 there were ZERO celebrations throughout the USSR, proving (1) the “collapse” of the USSR is a strategic ruse; and (2) the political parties of the West were already co-opted by Marxists,** otherwise the USSR (and East Bloc nations) couldn’t have gotten away with the ruse.

    ZERO celebrations, as the The Atlantic article inadvertently informs us…

    http://www.theatlantic.com/photo/2011/12/20-years-since-the-fall-of-the-soviet-union/100214/

    For more on this discovery see my blog…

    https://sites.google.com/site/deanjackson60/

    Conclusion:

    The West will form new political parties where candidates are vetted for Marxist ideology, the use of the polygraph to be an important tool for such vetting. Then the West can finally liberate the globe of vanguard Communism.

    ————————-
    *Approximately 20% of the Marxist front group Islamic [sic] State are Ukraine Ground Forces (UGF) posing as Islamic [sic] State, the UGF mission in Iraq being to cut Iraq’s oil exports–once American ground forces return to Iraq–for the purpose of assisting Russia’s oil based economy, thereby allowing Russia to complete her military modernization program. The Marxist governments of the West and Marxist media* are spinning the reality of what’s taking place in the Ukraine and Iraq, where in the Ukraine the anti-Communist Ukrainian people are waging a war against the Marxist Kiev government and mis-named “Ukrainian separatists” who are really Russian Spetsnaz/Guards Airborne troops assisting the Marxist Kiev government suppress the anti-Communist revolution raging throughout the Ukraine. The revolution could only have occurred thanks to the weakened security apparatus within the Ukraine, where a critical number of Ukraine Ground Forces are currently in Iraq preparing to assist Russia’s oil based economy by destroying Iraq’s oil production.

    With the weakened Marxist security throughout the Ukraine, due to the UGF presence in Iraq, the Ukrainian population destroyed, to date, over 700 statues to the reviled Vladimir Lenin, and other Marxist “heroes”, statues that were supposed to have been destroyed in 1991 if the collapse of the USSR were real and not the strategic ruse it is. Currently approximately 1,400 statues to the butcher of Ukrainian nationalism/Orthodoxy remain standing throughout the Ukraine, rubbing salt into the wounds of every non-Marxist Ukrainian (95% of the population) that is forced to view such monuments to the infamous butcher.

    Russian regular forces are also in the eastern Ukraine (attired in UGF uniforms) fighting the Ukrainian freedom fighters, losing to combat operations approximately 25,000 soldiers, which is why on January 2 Vladimir Putin was ordered by his superiors in the Russian Communist Party to sign a four-year old piece of legislation that allows foreigners who speak Russian to join the Russian military…

    http://www.rferl.org/content/russia-foreigners-serving-in-military/26779601.html

    ** The failed socialist inspired and controlled pan-European revolutions that swept the continent in 1848(1) thought Marxists and socialists a powerful lesson, that lesson being they couldn’t win overtly,(2) so they adopted the tactic of infiltration of the West’s political parties/institutions. In the case of the United States…(continue reading at DNotice)…

    https://sites.google.com/site/deanjackson60/now-you-see-me-now-you-don-t

    Now you know why not one political party in the West requested verification of the collapse of the USSR, and the media failed to alert your attention to this fact, including the “alternative” media. When determining whether the “former” USSR is complying with arms control treaties, what does the United States do to confirm compliance? Right, the United States sends into the “former” USSR investigative teams to VERIFY compliance, yet when it’s the fate of the West that’s at stake should the collapse of the USSR be a ruse, what does the United States do to confirm the collapse? Nothing!

    The fraudulent “collapse” of the USSR (and East Bloc) couldn’t have been pulled off until both political parties in the United States (and political parties elsewhere in the West) were co-opted by Marxists, which explains why verification of the “collapse” was never undertaken by the West, such verification being (1) a natural administrative procedure (since the USSR wasn’t occupied by Western military forces); and (2) necessary for the survival of the West. Recall President Reagan’s favorite phrase, “Trust, but verify”.

    It gets worse–the “freed” Soviets and West also never (1) de-Communized the Soviet Armed Forces of its Communist Party officer corps, which was 90% officered by Communist Party members; and (2) arrested/de-mobilized the 6-million vigilantes that assisted the Soviet Union’s Ministry of the Interior and police control the populations of the larger cities during the period of “Perestroika” (1986-1991)!

    There can be no collapse of the USSR (or East Bloc nations) without…

    Verification, De-Communization and De-mobilization.

    The West never verified the collapse of the USSR because no collapse occurred, since if a real collapse had occurred the West would have verified it, since the survival of the West depends on verification. Conversely, this proves that the political parties of the West were co-opted by Marxists long before the fraudulent collapse of the USSR, since the survival of the West depends on verification.

    The above means that the so-called “War on Terror” is an operation being carried out by the Marxist co-opted governments of the West in alliance with the USSR and other Communist nations, the purpose being to (1) destroy the prominence of the West in the eyes of the world, where the West is seen (i) invading nations without cause; (ii) causing chaos around the globe; and (iii) killing over one-million civilians and boasting of torture; (2) close off non-Russian supplies of oil for export, thereby increasing the price of oil, the higher price allowing oil exporting Russia to maintain economic stability while she modernizes and increases her military forces; (3) destroy the United States Armed Forces via the never-ending “War on Terror”; the ultimate purpose of the aforementioned to (4) bring about the demise of the United States in the world, opening up a political void to be filled by a new pan-national entity composed of Europe and Russia (replacing the European Union), a union “From the Atlantic to Vladivostok”; which will (5) see the end of NATO.

    Now you know how Bolshevik Russia survived in 1917; how the West “lost” China to the Communists in 1949; why the Eisenhower administration turned a deaf ear to the anti-Communist Hungarian uprising in 1956; why the Eisenhower administration in 1959 was indifferent to the Castro brothers’ Communist fidelity, actually used the CIA to overthrow the Batista government; why the Nixon administration abandoned Taiwan for Communist China, and signed treaties/provided economic aid to the USSR; why the Nixon administration refused to tell the American People that over 50% of North Vietnamese NVA regiments were actually Chinese People’s Liberation Army soldiers (attired in NVA uniforms, and proving that the Sino/Soviet Split was a ruse, as KGB defector Major Anatoliy Golitsyn told the West back in 1962), thereby (1) ensuring the Vietnam War would be lost; (2) destroying the prominence of the United States abroad and at home; (3) breeding distrust between the American people and their government; and (4) securing Communist victories in Southeast Asia. Working in the background within the political parties of the United States and Great Britain were Marxist agents doing their best to (1) ensure the survival of Communist nations when they popped up; and (2) sabotage any policies that would bring down a Communist nation. That’s why after the fake collapses of the East Bloc nations and USSR there was no mandatory Western verification process to ensure the Communists weren’t still in control.

  • greggf

    It’s simple Oliver.
    Delete the clause about “Ever Closer Union…..” and the very reason for the EU to exist disappears. It becomes irrelevant, because this clause is the “make-work” engine for most of the Brussels’ organisation.

  • John Andrews

    Myth No 11 There will be no more funding for long-distance footpaths. The truth is that we will still have them but they will not be disfigured by signs saying they were funded by the EU. So we will be able to enjoy the countryside more.

  • burberryblue

    Per No. 7: Farmers losing their subsidies:
    We need to add the fact that the EU is already abolishing subsidies to sugar cane and, I believe, some other farmers as of next year.

  • Rob Silvertree

    No mention of our sovereignty?

  • Animal_Farm

    I would like to pin this article to the forehead of the Guardian’s editor and many of its commentators who are already up and a runnin’ with Project Fear.

  • andyrwebman

    Succinct and to the point.

    Tot he tariffs argeument, I’d add the fact that we import more from the EU than we export – so tariffs could well hurt them more than it hurts us, as we seek better deals elsewhere.

    German car manufacturers have been raising this very matter as a risk for a Brexit – and in the event there’s a fair likelihood that a free trade deal could be on the cards.

  • angelleb

    “even if we didn’t sign a free-trade deal with the EU, we would have to pay, at most, £7.5 billion a year in tariffs for access to its markets.”

    Have you got a source for this?????

  • Trish Wilson

    Oh such a pity I’m having to rubbish you and all the rest of the Brexshit lobby but I didn’t spend years in global financial and economic intelligence or have Bank of England mandarin Dad or spent 55 years knocking around the world without learning a thing or two so so sorry if I’m blowing your pie-in-the sky, rainbow chasing Cloud Cuckoo Land fantasies particularly the Commonwealth, all of whom are doing nicely WITHOUT us and have neither wish for Empire ‘resurrection’ nor like what they consider imperial/colonial notions, not to mention they’ve either set up their own EU or are members of one. Don’t tell me you don ‘t know about CARCICOM, EAC, ASEAN and AEPC not to mention USAN (South America) which has a certain problem with some islands called the Falklands. And what about Gibraltar included in the 1972 EEC Act and with MEP representation – have your mob spared a thought for them either?

    As for banging on about sovereign and independence that’s not going down at all well with those nations both of which the afore-mention we violated all over the world including India and China and added to our sins with ruthless suppression and exploitation which included slavery – oh how hollow that cry of ‘Freedom’ rings in our former colonies. Don’t tell me that you’re unaware that CARICOM members are now suing for slavery compensation and as I understand it certain African states are giving it all due consideration? Whoops .Put it this way old sins have long shadows and ours have come back to haunt us.

    Oh how the world or rather ROW has moved on since 1973 while we in the UK remained shackled and manacled to our happy and glorious past which wasn’t so happy and glorious for everyone else and now they have collective muscle prepared to use it as CARICOM in the matter of bananas and sugar which included taking on WTO. You think getting our seat back is going to make a ha’porth of difference with 175 members all prepared to gang up on us if they see fit. That’s another problem with Brexshit – these delusions of grandeur.

    As for ROW which chopped the Great of GB years ago what we need most is a PR team to deal with the image of an arrogant, ignorant, insular and hypocritical stuck in the past bunch of yobs and chavs. So get off your perch in Cloud Cuckoo Land and start living in the REAL world, which doesn’t owe us a living and is already importing and exporting to and from elsewhere.

    As regards the grey vote oh dear who would have no anti-ageist legislation if it hadn’t been for the EU a matter on which I know a deal about not only having been one of the campaigners but doing interviews on radio and TV including Nic Ferarri – perhaps you might care to remind Nick about it. And who was the member state that behaved the worst, dragged its feet all the way to the wire, so watered down the proposed legislation as to make it about as effective as a toothbrush without bristles – we 50+ in the UK have the worst anti-ageist legislation in the EU so don’t give me the BS spiel about unwarranted EU interference or how much better the UK does it on its own when it needed a good EU kick-ass to do something for those at the zenith of financial responsibility, always at the top of the redundancy lists like it didn’t matter if we were thrown on the unemployment scrap heap, little chance of re-employment and facing the twin nightmare of debt and repossession. How would YOU like to lose YOUR home and YOUR means of providing for yourself because YOUR Government was not prepared to lift a finger to help you, worse-airbrushing the real statistics of 2 million 50+ unemployed and you’re slagging off the very people
    who did? Are you for real?

    Finally whatever you do don’t resort to usual vilification of the Brexit trolls as they’ve all had a good ass-kicking particularly in the matter of the Brexshit Project Fear in which immigtants play a large part – oh how the Brexshit campaign reminds me of Germany 80 years ago – and you’re just the latest. Defeatist? No just realist, the one who has bothered to find out about prospective partners going on the adage it takes two to tango and am still being wallflower. If you don’t believe me have a word with WTO

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