Rod Liddle

Wear a veil if you like – but don’t treat women like that

Whether it’s French opera patrons or police in the UAE, somehow it’s the female sex that’s liable to be picked on

25 October 2014

9:00 AM

25 October 2014

9:00 AM

What sort of clothing do you wear when you go to the opera? I assume some of you do go to the opera, otherwise the Royal Opera House could be turned into a giant Wetherspoon’s pub. I have never been. Given a choice I would rather browse through a collection of photographs of Brooks Newmark MP’s penis, or indeed gnaw off my right leg.

If I were somehow coerced into attending, then without question the costume of choice for me would be a niqab. Then I could sleep without being noticed. Or listen to something more interesting on headphones, such as a collection of Danny Alexander’s speeches or a greatest hits compilation from the Radio 4 programme Does He Take Sugar? Better still, if the opera was taking place in Paris, there’s a good chance I’d be kicked out by the mob in an anti-Muslim rage. A night in the cells being abused and physically assaulted by unwashed French xenophobes would be uncomfortable, granted — but also slightly preferable. It’s not the music that irritates, by the way, it’s the rest of it.

An Arab woman dressed in a niqab — the full Darth Vader outfit, little slit for the eyes — was recently evicted from an opera house in Paris for exactly this reason. Midway through an interminable performance of Verdi’s La Traviata, a member of the cast clocked the woman and a sort of revolt took place. The whole bunch of warbling luvvies refused to continue unless the Arab was chucked out. In France, wearing a niqab is illegal — as is not wearing one in some of the more severely backward Muslim countries. The woman came from one of the horrible Gulf States; we have not been told which.


There are fairly regular outraged reports in our newspapers about British women being arrested in, say, the UAE for dressing like pie-eyed trollops out on the slag, if I can put it like that. We are shocked that the Emiratis do not much go for boob tubes and thongs, any more than they like westerners copulating like feral dogs on their scorching and characterless beaches. We consider this prudishness both hilarious and illiberal. Is it any more illiberal than banning a woman from covering herself up, if she wishes to? Either way it seems to me that it is women who get the rough end; whether in the Muslim UAE or in Roman Catholic, if nominally secular, France — the female sex is liable to be picked on for contravening the local dress code. Too modest or not nearly modest enough. I cannot see any moral difference between the two approaches — both seem to me sexist, and the French legislation racist to boot. It is spite directed at a bunch of people who, too late, the French fervently wish they hadn’t let into the country (possibly with some justification). Not Gulf State Arabs, of course, but the rather less affluent Muslims from North and West Africa, the ones who don’t usually go to the opera.

To my mind it is the primitive and sexist thinking behind the niqab which is the problem, not the niqab itself — and you address that problem by abandoning a multicultural mindset which insists that all competing cultures are equally valid. And some especially valid if they oppose the oppressive, imperialist white, Christian hegemony, such as Islam. But surely we should let people wear what the hell they want. That’s what we value over here, isn’t it, freedom?

I think we have become deranged by Islam. We act towards its adherents in ways which must seem to them mystifying and contradictory. They certainly seem that way to me. Personally speaking, I find Islam in general an illiberal, arid, vengeful creed and nothing gives me a longer belly laugh than western politicians insisting that it is magnificent and peaceable, while locking up Muslims for stating the tenets of their religion and then sending in the bombers to Iraq. Come on — it is not that peaceable, is it?

Another example of our derangement came in the bizarre statement that young jihadis returning from chopping off people’s heads in Syria might face charges of treason upon their return. It was only a couple of years ago that the British government was cheering on the rebels in their fight against the hated monster President Assad and contemplating sending aid to help them in their cause. If our then foreign secretary, William Hague, really was dumb enough to think that the rebels were all Jeffersonian Democrats who wished for nothing more than a free and open secular society with a decent minimum wage and equal rights for the LGBT community, then he is possibly the most stupid foreign secretary in British history. Every time the mass of people in Muslim countries exert their popular will, it is to create a regime which is considerably more unpleasant, punitive, illiberal and hostile to the West than the undoubtedly ghastly regime which was peremptorily overthrown. When will we not grasp this fact?

But I digress. The British jihadis were answering a call to arms which came — at least partly — from the very government that now wants to lock them up for treason. That they ended up fighting on the side of an organisation with the aims and values of the Islamic State should come as a surprise only to someone with the IQ of a bowl of butterscotch Angel Delight.

At the time of writing, incidentally, it is estimated that some 30 homegrown Muslim fanatics have been killed fighting alongside IS. I have to say that although the death of any man must diminish us, this grieves me less than perhaps it should. I am tempted to suggest that we should offer free transport to the Turkish border for any other fanatic who wishes to donate his life in this worthy cause. Or they can stay at home and watch the opera, dressed however they so wish.

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  • edithgrove

    “I cannot see any moral difference between the two approaches”. Oh dear, I don’t like the sound of that Rod. And sticking someone in a sack with a slit, even yourself, has little to do with “freedom”.

    Also she wasn’t thrown out, she was asked to come out of the bag, declined, and chose to leave instead. It was all very polite. Égalité, fraternité, liberté, like it says on the packet. We should try it over here.

    (Not an opera fan Rod? You would love it, all human life is there).

    • ARDNASSAC

      How did she get in as security is tight there. Disguised as a slag perhaps?

      • pj

        What a bigoted little answer , from a simpleton with a head full of straw and cheap vino and smelly rags

        • Ukip tottie

          anything more original, or will you just keep posting ‘wacist’ under each and every comment?

      • StupidWhiningMen

        what’s a slag?

    • puffletino

      I don’t like it either. Should we physically force a woman not to wear it though? Should our discomfort be encoded in an act of parliament and turned into the law of the land (as is the case in France,, although I don’t know how it was enforced in this instance) with all it would cost and all the extra bureaucracy that would entail? Is policing citizens clothes a good use of police and the courts time? You say it was all very polite, at what point might it become less so, and what then might the consequences be? What should the penalty be, for disobediance in this matter, in your opinion?

      • edithgrove

        I believe there’s a small fine, probably like something you might get for cycling on the pavement. It seems to have worked.

      • pj

        Finally a modicum of sensibility in a stable of jesters

        • puffletino

          Thanks pj – felt like pertinent questions.

      • Catherine Waterman

        Heavy fines could be imposed on parents who force their little girls to wear the burqa, especially if the child becomes seriously ill due to inadequate fresh air and sunlight. Repeat abusers should be sent to parenting classes – and in extreme cases, one or both parents should be sent to prison. In cases where even other family members cannot be trusted as guardians of the abused child, the only remaining option is for the child to be taken into care.

        Incidentally, whilst on the subject of abuse of females within Muslim communities, the penalty for parents who force their daughters into being butchered by brainwashed cutters (the crime of FGM), long-term imprisonment for such abusers is essential.

        • puffletino

          Agree (obviously) that there should be jail sentences for FGM. Here the state should come down with all possible swiftness. It is a disgrace that health professionals and others should look the other way.

          Pretty sure woman don’t start wearing a burqa till they hit puberty? Again, agree that anyone who is *forced* to wear a burqa the concern of the state – of course. We get onto trickier ground legally and morally when we impose a legal ban on an item of clothing.

          In my opinion there are things associated with the radical Islamists that it *is* entirely within Britains power to crack down on; FGM, forced marriage, honour killings, etc. Let the law come down here. The state ripping off people’s clothes because we are not comfortable? I am not convinced this is a sensible, humane liberal or enforceable policy. It neither breaks my leg nor picks my pocket as Jefferson had it. Why push people’s buttons over something that does no harm? There is PLENTY for the state to be doing (see my list above)

          • Pufferfish

            I think there is a good case for head coverings to be banned for girls until they are 18 – when they can chose for themselves and with luck won’t have rickets

          • Catherine Waterman

            You’ve probably missed my posts on the health problems associated with wearing the burqa – the development of rickets in women and children due vitamin D deficiency. We need sunlight on the skin in order to synthesise adequate amounts of the vitamin.

            Pre pubescent children are being forced to wear the burqa, or are at least forced to cover most of their bodies, and thus are suffering from vitamin D deficiency and bone disease as a consequence. There is plenty of information about this issue on the Internet if you wish to learn more, including medical articles.

            Aside from the crime of wilful child neglect, the cost of treating such health problems is a burden on the NHS and can be totally eliminated if extremist Muslims were to allow their children (and themselves) the basic freedom of adequate fresh air and sunlight.

            You will also discover with a little research that even the European Court of Human Rights agrees that a country can indeed ban the burqa if it so wishes (thus France and Belgium are not breaking any laws with their ban). The garment is NOT a religious requirement to be worn at all times. This claim is just a ruse by extremists to keep women under control. For those in the West who choose to wear the garment, this is a passive/aggressive protest against Western secular society and Western democracy.

    • pj

      Your ignorance is breath-taking Judy because the garment isn’t skin tight and doesn’t accentuate
      your every curve or lack of doesn’t mean it’s a sack . Many women enjoy wearing them so they’re not ogled at or commented on . It’s liberating for loads of women

      • Catherine Waterman

        Liberating? Hot and sweaty in summer and plain depressing to view no matter what the season. Quite apart from its symbolic meaning – the subjugation of women and/or a passive aggressive protest against Western values, the most compelling argument against the burqa is that it’s a health risk.

        As I’ve already mentioned in a previous post, the NHS in dealing with the huge cost to the taxpayer of treating increasing cases of rickets amongst burqa wearing women and their sunlight starved children (poor little souls suffering from parental ignorance and neglect).

        Rickets is a terrible bone disease formerly associated with abject poverty. It’s caused by lack of vitamin D as a result of being deprived of adequate fresh air and sunlight. The body makes vitamin D from the action of sunlight on cholesterol in the skin. It’s essential to expose our skin – even if just the face, hands and arms – to at least a modicum of ultra violet light in order to maintain health of body and an inner sense of wellbeing. Indeed, our emotional health is dependent on receiving adequate fresh air and sunlight too.

        So, a ban on the burqa should be imposed for health reasons alone! If governments take this approach, they can avoid the usual false accusations of ‘Islamaphobia’ and ‘racism’. As others rightly say, being Muslim is not a race, neither is Islam a race, lest anyone should forget.

      • StupidWhiningMen

        Hiding yourself so that other people treat you in a civilised manner isn’t liberating, it’s capitulating.

      • Ukip tottie

        liberating!!
        what an absolute cretin you are

      • edithgrove

        “Many women enjoy wearing them so they’re not ogled at or commented on”

        Well that backfired spectacularly in this case.

      • The Blue Baron

        Teach men to treat women with respect, don’t teach women to hide and be ashamed of their bodies.

        It’s no coincidence that, in societies where this garb is endemic, women have no rights at all. Claiming that it is a tool of liberation is a deeply ignorant comment.

  • Suzy61

    For me the niqab represents either female oppression or female defiance – neither say anything nice.

    Some very funny lines here but why the slur against Butterscotch Angel Delight?

    Not in my name, sir.

    • pj

      Why isn’t female defiance “nice” what is wrong with women taking control of their image and what to wear . Is it nice to see a sow bellied Middle aged woman flashing her g string to all and sundry . Nice mmmmmmm

      • Suzy61

        OK, are you speaking in defence of the defiant sow bellied middle aged woman flashing her G string in the streets and shopping malls of Dubai?

        Is she being rude to her host country…or simply taking control of her image and what to wear?

        • pj

          Plenty of Russian women do just that and they are more or less left to their own devices now and gain you hear of an incident where the parties have breached or fallen foul of the law and they are treated as the individual in France was . It’s a gamble but it if said woman
          wishes to let it all hang out trust me whether it’s Dubai or Dublin she’ll do just that .. Punk rockers were once thought of as rude but I still defend their right to wear what they want . I think sow bellied g flasher is being true to herself not “rude” but it’s what she’s familiar with and accustomed to.

          • Suzy61

            I am confused. Are you saying that, if a woman’s choice of clothing breaches the law, (in the country she happens to be in) she can expect to arrested? That country could be France or Dubai. Both are equal in enforcing an acceptable dress code?

          • Ukip tottie

            muslims only demand things work in their favours

            muslim countries, muslim laws
            western countries, muslim laws

            that’s why they can not get along with anybody, anywhere, not even with each other

        • StupidWhiningMen

          Sow bellied. Jesus Christ.

          • Suzy61

            Oh for Christ Sake..read the comment I was responding to.

          • Damaris Tighe

            She never does Suzy. Did it to me. Just a knee-jerk witch-hunting radfem, looking for offence, who is under a spell herself.

          • StupidWhiningMen

            Grow up.

          • StupidWhiningMen

            Oh for Christ’s sake I hit the wrong reply button.

  • Sinceyouask

    Not one of your best Rod, though you do set the bar high.

    The liberal West struggles to apply our accepted norms of freedom to the wearing of these clothes. The real limitation of freedom is on the part of most women who wear them: they are pressured to do so either by misogynist individuals or a misogynist theocratic culture. This garb does not exist in isolation: it runs in direct parallel with the limitation of women’s freedoms in education, family law etc etc. That it took a bunch of Luvvies to point out that this was in contravention of the law of their land shows simply that spinelessness on the part of our leaders is not limited to the UK.

    • mrs1234

      I agree with you entirely but unfortunately in this country we have many young women choosing to wear the full niqab as a kind of political statement. Here they can wear it and enjoy all the freedoms that have been hard won for women in the west without realising the peril they are putting their sex in. They seem oblivious to the fact that the niqab/burka has nothing to do with piety but is simply a relic of misogynistic middle eastern culture that has been used with astonishing success as a tool to keep women oppressed for centuries. It is absurd that there are men and women in positions of influence in the west who would defend it. Those that do do a great disservice to the women both here and abroad without a voice and no rights to choose.
      British girls who wear this offensive robe (the hijab is almost as bad) can have no grasp of its implications on the lives of countless millions of women in Islamic countries for whom there is no choice, no freedom to walk the streets alone, go to work or to school and university. It is about time the truth as to the lives of women in Islamic States was taught in schools and broadcast on TV. Then perhaps more might find the courage to reject it and the hijab.

      • WimsThePhoenix

        The phrase “Useful Idiots” applies to no class of people more appropriately than left-wing “feminists” who have bought into the idea of cultural replacement in the UK. When and if Sharia becomes law, they will be turned into meat machines for some ugly, halitotic men with unwashed nether regions.

        Talk about turkeys voting for an Early Christmas!

        • balance_and_reason

          Absolutely…the Greenham Common useful idiots were the source of the expression as made by the soviets way back.

        • StupidWhiningMen

          Now men want the feminists to deal with it. Hypocrites.

      • zeal

        i live in east london where i kid you not, i have seen a man coming out of a flat, shift the niquab so it covered him properly-( i saw his bearded face,) and walk down the street. it unnerved me my first reaction was wt..?? and where is he going-to blow something up? ( his gait was extremely manly ) or is he/she a spy?! And when you are going about your business and you see 2 or 3 niquab wearers coming towards you at a distance, its just not pretty! ( even worse when I’m without glasses as I’m extremely short sighted and i can tell you quite unnerving) I was conversing with a young law student who wears the hijab and the full dress. she is a sweet bright girl, sadly has a very strong body odour problem which I only mentioned because she wears so many clothing layers to cover up- i feel sorry for her as she must be sweating so much. she lives in east london amongst the bengali muslim community. so we got talking and i asked her about her faith. her sister is divorced from a male gold digger from back home- who was clearly interested in the visa and the money. i found this interesting that she was able to divorce him no problem under islamic law, and it was her father who insisted she didnt marry him in the first place. my law student then went on to explain why she wore traditiona garb. she said the scarf wearing was because she had very beautiful hair and she was too shy to let a man see it until she was ready.any particular guy- i asked- none , she said. i thought thought fair enough, but what a drag!

        • pj

          Have you been ingesting crack cocaine

          • Ukip tottie

            you mean the lethal and highly addictive substances that ‘asian’ grooming gangs were forcing onto underage little girls, before they gang raped them?

            so tolerant and peaceful…

      • pj

        But with respect that analogy is flawed as wearing it here in a free and open society is markedly different from being forced to wear it . Again let women decide what they want to wear

  • Guest

    She was breaking the law. The woman in Iran who was breaking the law by watching a sports game is currently rotting in jail, the woman in Pakistan was sentenced to death for using words.
    This woman had a choice, she chose to leave, no great loss, on the contrary.
    She is in Europe, France, Paris at the Opera House, and she thinks she can come dressed in desert rags?
    It’s inappropriate, discourteous and tacky.
    You do not go to the opera in pyjama’s, wearing a motor bike helmet or a nightgown – you dress appropriately.

    They have no respect for us and our customs, yet we are supposed to bend over backwards for them. It’s getting tiring.

    • Innit Bruv

      “Desert rags”? “Discourteous and tacky””THEY have no respect…”
      Alf Garnett lives!

      • kazdix

        Throw insults back, but can you counter the actual point??

        • pj

          There is no point – cultural heritage and our sense of history guides us though civilisation . Shame on France for imposing bans’ on women’s dress codes and policing their clothing choices why not ban sneakers, bandanas bikinis in the street

          • Ukip tottie

            ‘cultural heritage’
            hehe

            yeah, looking like a bloody garbage bag defiantly suits your heritage perfectly

          • Suzy61

            A popular holiday resort in Spain has banned the bikini from the streets (rightly so) but Western women do not demand their rights in a foreign country. Most would not want to offend their host nation and for the few that do …they are dealt with by the laws and authorities of the host country.

            We don’t have a problem with this. Most of us are right-minded and can see that …..when in Rome, etc

            The ‘problem’ of insulting the host country is entirely a Muslim one, be it the mysoginist man or the defiant woman. So many Muslims are not only compliant, but are eager to be so.

            I believe the niqab women are rude. Unfortunately, not to their own who impose this on them, but to the society that they have chosen to live within. A two-finger message that leaves us in no doubt that they will cynically take our hard-fought liberties and use them as they will, to further their own backward cause.

        • Innit Bruv

          The point being what exactly?

      • Guest

        you think describing bin liners as ‘desert rags’ is racist and disrespectful? if you don’t like how we westerners refer to you, you know where the airport is, you can go back to one of your respectful and tolerant countries where they beat women up with sticks for showing their wrists

        xoxoxo,
        kuffar!

        • zeal

          this made me chuckle, i liked your delivery- well put!

        • pj

          Most of the buildings you visit, clubs you frequent and homes you rent are all owned by wealthy Arabs .
          I think that’s the bone of contention money is like confetti to rich Arabs they don’t need to reside merely visit the west and collect on their investments

          • Ukip tottie

            what about the millions of parasite arabs and other muslims, that are bleeding us dry?

        • Bonkim

          No but it is idiotic on your part.

        • Innit Bruv

          Not a Muslim you nitwit!!!

        • Innit Bruv

          “we westerners refer to you” ? Go back to one of Your respectful….you know where the airport is etc etc….”
          .What makes you think I come from the Middle East you halfwit?
          Why do some people think that anyone who objects to this sort of Daily Mail/UKIP/EDL drivel is automatically a Muslim? A bit rich from someone who,judging by previous posts, is him/herself a foreigner.(if I am not mistaken from a settler state founded on terrorism and on the theft of another peoples’ land, a state founded on the laughable pretext of a promise made by God some 4000 years ago).
          You should practise what you preach and clear off yourself.

          • Guest

            are you blind or something?

            IF YOU DON’T LIKE OUT TERRIBLE WACISM, F*** OFF TO ONE OF YOUR NON RACIST HOLES!!

            I don’t need a bloody essay – bye-bye!

          • Innit Bruv

            No numbnuts I am not blind…You on the other hand,judging by the spelling mistakes….. or maybe you just can’t spell (probably the more likely explanation).
            PS: what is a non-racist hole?

      • Flower Powerchild

        you don’t like the truth? not many muslims do, that’s why you have taqiyya
        feel free to leave to Syria were you respectful peaceful people are beheading each other and selling little girls into sex slavery
        savage troglodytes

        • fundamentallyflawed

          “selling little girls into sex slavery” – don’t need to go any further than Rotherham…

        • pj

          While this is heinous , brutal and abhorrent sex slavery and paedophilia is not unfortunately the exclusive reserves of Syria or Iraq ask the Catholic church and most of Europe Thailand and Africa , moreover
          sex trafficking goes on throughout the Baltic states . You cannot close your eyes to the plight of the innocents elsewhere. The West encouraged murderous Syrian dictator to take office many of the political stresses are directly attributable to Western foreign policy .Child brutality is a global problem and it is abhorrent of you that you are unaware of the misery of trafficked girls in the West shame on you for turning a blind eye

        • Innit Bruv

          What makes you think I’m a Muslim? I’m not.
          I just despise simple minds and their knee jerk xenophobic uninformed mindlessness that panders to the lowest common denominator. You sound like you belong in this category.
          By the way didn’t Rod Liddle receive a police caution for assaulting his wife/girlfriend? He hardly qualifies as
          a poster boy for gender equality!!!!

      • Guest

        if the troglodyte niqab fits…

    • UnwashedFrench

      Especially that according to the witnesses, when the agent who came to see the couple during the interval, he asked her to unveil her face – as the law states – or leave, it’s her husband who asked her to leave. We’ll never know what the woman would have wanted. But you know, her husband couldn’t bear the thought that all these unwashed French xenophobes could maybe discern her face in the darkness of the room. See how the women get to give their opinion in these situations. Strangely, nobody speaks about this fact, which is very telling to me. When are we going to admit that the niqab is a tool for oppressing women and that the ‘choice’ that all the ones who want to appear open-minded are evoking all the time is nothing but a façade?

      Also, if the journalists could try to think before mixing up undiscerningly the concepts of ‘racism’, ‘xenophobia’ and ‘Islam’, that would help the debate. Which is not the case in this article.

      • Emilia

        That may be true in some cases but I believe that a lot of women use it as a political statement of their refusal to engage with our society on any terms but those they choose.It’s an expansion of demands for segregated swimming, female-only clinics etc. It should be stopped.

        • Pacificweather

          My local swimming pool had women only evening in the early ’60s. Then it went out of fashion. My wife will be pleased if it returns. At a certain time of life some women prefer that men should not see them in a bathing costume.

      • pj

        Not all women find it a tool of repression some enjoy it’s anonymity and simplicity . Not all women need to be
        carved up like a slice of prime rib t and a on full display . What of the nun’s habit or similar . In the land of egalite and libertie this woman’s right to attend a public place was violated . Islamophobia is rife repellent and unfair not all Muslims are extremists they shouldn’t have to suffer the State’s repressive diktat on what to wear .

        • Catherine Waterman

          There are many ways to be ‘modest’ and feminine (albeit, a subjective state of being) without the need to cut yourself off from the elements and risk your health and wellbeing in the process. I’ve already talked about rickets and lack of sunlight.

          Less serious, but a worrying symptom nonetheless, some permanently veiled women have noticed that their hair is thinning. I expect this, too, is caused by lack of sunlight.

          Another point: you keep referring to skin tight clothing and pieces of meat on display, or words to that effect. This is very unpleasant wording – especially as I’m a vegetarian!

          Seriously though, when you say such things, I wonder if you would also regard ‘immodestly dressed’ women as prostitutes? I suggest this because I’ve heard such accusations repeated many times by women who promote the veil. It’s as if they are saying The Veil is the only way for a decent woman to dress.

          If so, the natural conclusion to this argument is to suggest that ‘immodestly dressed’ women deserve to be sexually molested or even raped – for according to the tenets of Islam, all men are weak and unable to resist the temptation of a scantily clad female. And if she chooses to be ‘on display’, then she’s free for the taking.

          Or, is it only Muslim men who lack a proper functioning cerebral cortex, and thus are quite unable to control their sexual urges – even to the degree that they will behave in a sexual way in socially inappropriate circumstances?

          I’m not really suggesting that all Muslim men behave badly; rather, I’m reflecting on the Muslim notion of ‘immodesty’ and the idea that all Muslim men are entitled to sexually harass women who refuse to ‘cover up’. Goodness, gracious me!

          • StupidWhiningMen

            This modesty lark is a bogus virtue. We never talk about men being sexually modest. You know why? Because we don’t want to control male sexuality like we do female. What does modesty actually mean for women? It means be amenable, be docile, be controllable, have fewer liberties than men, sleep with who I tell you to sleep with because I gain something from that.

          • Pufferfish

            The male modesty requirement under Islam is merely that they keep covered between the navel and the knees – but women have to cover up from head to toe (face optional) because it is their fault if men go wild with desire and can’t control themselves. Logically if men can’t control themselves, they are the source of the problem and they should be the ones covering their eyes. Of course most men can control themselves and the assumption that they can’t and won’t is insulting.

          • liamjq

            especially as I’m a vegetarian!…why am i surprised?

          • Catherine Waterman

            Explain yourself please. I don’t understand what my quip has to do with the issue of women and children suffering serious bone disease due to wearing excessively modest clothing such as the burqa.

            The quip was in response to PJ’s unpalatable notion that immodestly dressed women are to be regarded as pieces of meat for the taking. This reminded me of the Rotherham scandal and victims being described as ‘easy meat’.

            There is never any excuse for rape, no matter what a woman chooses to wear. Only animals have absolutely no control over their sexual urges. Unlike an animal, a mature man is equipped with a fully functioning cerebral cortex, and thus can override the basic urge to copulate with all and sundry.

            A mature man has the instinct to know that certain behaviours are socially unacceptable and will cause great harm. In other words, a mature man is equipped with a moral compass.

        • StupidWhiningMen

          I expect some black people would enjoy its liberating effect on racial harassment. I expect some disabled people would experience liberation from harassment. Pretty sad state of affairs if that’s the only way to liberate yourself from people’s bigotry and uncivilised behaviour.

          Women’s bodies are meat eh? On display eh? Just a heads up: you’re the problem.

        • Ukip tottie

          so if I wear jeans and a t-shirt, i invite lurid middle eastern men to gawk and howl at me?

          nun’s do not blow themselves up, but burka wearers have been used for break-ins, shoplifting and terrorist attacks

          YOU are one of the reasons our country is in such a state, disgusting.

    • sarah_13

      You’re right of course but no one wants to have that conversation or face the consequences of it so we focus on the dress rather than the reason for the dress; the garb of oppression. We must address both the external attire of oppression as well as the ideology it represents. We would be unlikely to sit back and say nothing while women walked in public behind their husband with a ball and chain, whether they wanted it or not (see Mill on slavery) so why do we tolerate the Burka. Once we are familiar with their reasons, and those who advocate wearing them don’t actually hide these reasons i.e. that women are chattels and born sinful and should be covered up otherwise fitna would ensue, the sooner we can dismiss them for the monstrosity they are and the ideology they represent.

      There are of course other valid arguments against it i.e. that each citizen is required to participate in society, be identifiable, interact with others who are part of the society in which they live, contribute and take responsibility for themselves. A woman should be entirely responsible for herself, answer for herself, be a legal entity herself the equal of a man. In liberal western society she is not a chattel of her husband or father. The fact that the philosophy behind the burka is entirely based on her being a chattel and sinful, if understood would probably make the discussion about dress entirely moot. She cannot benefit from society but take no responsibility or contribute to its success. Whether she wants to or not, whether she says she likes the burka or not is irrelevant it simply is not acceptable. Once that is clear we can say you are either a legal entity and responsible and a part of this society or you are not. In this I think france is clearer on this than most countries.

      • WimsThePhoenix

        Excellent points.

      • Emilia

        We WOULD sit back and say nothing, or we’d be called racists.

        • pj

          But that is what you are . You are motivated by racist invective and that is the sum of your cultural outlook . IS there any other word to describe a shrew who detests the cultural clothes of another . You are racists accept that

          • Ukip tottie

            okay, we are racists, accepted.

            so, since this bothers you, will you leave now and go re-settle in a non racist country, such as Pakistan?

          • Suzy61

            Take a look back at your descriptions of the way some Western women dress.

            …’a shrew who detests the cultural clothes of another’.

            Has the penny dropped yet?

            You are racist. Accept it.

          • Rush_is_Right

            Hey lady. Fit in of Eff Off.

    • pj

      What a grotesque and highly inflammatory response . How do you know this lady was decked in “desert rags” what are your customs you are so proud of drinking, licentious coddling litigation what arrant nonsense you spout . Do you keno anything about the Opera just because it’s been hijacked by the Middle classes doesn’t mean it was always the preserve of the cultural elite . It’s raw, untamed earthy of the street , in fact she was far more appropriately dressed than someone swanning around in Herve Leger . Your ignorance is frightening and shamelessly rampant . Educate yourself before your painful stupidity tarnishes all Westerners with the same silly brush

      • Ukip tottie

        you’re either a spineless dhimmi, or a hypocritical demanding Muslim

        either way, we don’t care!

      • Pufferfish

        I’ll bite: what exactly is ‘more appropriate’ about wearing a niqab at the opera?

    • Bonkim

      Are you comparing France and other Western nations with Pakistan and Iran? Of course if the French start behaving like that – that is their freedom but don’t include yourself amongst the civilized nations of the world.

      Nobody is asking you to bend over backward – be yourself and also let others to be what they want – You have forgotten Liberte Egalite and fraternite.

      If she was breaking the law – it is not for the lynch-mob to rise up but the local police. Rule of law – don’t forget – not vigilante law.

    • Catherine Waterman

      Here’s a very interesting account from a Saudi Arabian woman who has shed the veil. She’s typical of many women in Islamic countries who are desperate to break free.

      Women in the UK who choose to wear the Burqa/niqab – supposedly for religious reasons and/or out of a warped sense of modesty and female ‘liberation’ – appear not to give a fig about the misery of forcibly veiled women in countries like Saudi Arabia and Iran.

      “Even before I took off the niqab for good, a 10-year old girl called me an infidel when I lifted my veil to eat.”

      http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/10/30/saudi-activist-manal-al-sharif-on-why-she-removed-the-veil.html

  • will91

    I’ve always taken it as a metaphorical – “F**k you! and your decadent, degenerate culture”

    • Flower Powerchild

      and how ironic considering we are talking about a people who are slaughtering each other, and sitting on golden toilets

      • Fergus Pickering

        Hey! I want to sit ona golden toilet. Where do you get them.Can I have one on the National Health?

        • Rocksy

          Only if you’re on benefits.

      • ARDNASSAC

        that last line is a bit stale for those who have worked in the food trade

        • WimsThePhoenix

          He means real yoghurt

      • pj

        You have heard of Rumi the Sufi poet ,and a dynasty of culture the first Koran was found in Italy . Casinos , brothels are all to make the Westerners feel at home

        • Ukip tottie

          wow, 1 poet you can name, out of 1.6 billion muslims!!
          and then you wonder why we laugh at you!

          muslims have no culture, they still wipe their backsides with their bare hands.
          muslims are not creators, they are destroyers, they like to destroy what OTHERS create.

          • Pufferfish

            Muslims used to have a wonderful culture and lead the world in many branches of learning, such as science and maths. Their descent into ignorance and barbarism is a tragedy.

  • Stephen Milroy

    This is the west. I need to see a face. You want to live in a sack? Move to the Middle East.

    • Damaris Tighe

      A sack that fully reveals the face will do for me.

      • WimsThePhoenix

        Not for me. Clothing that fully reveals sticks of dynamite works for me.

    • omgamuslim

      Have the same view re make-ups? The people whose faces need to be visible are the performers. She was not in the cast.

      • MaryWells

        Polar opposites in comparison. The actors and actresses are the focal point of attention hence the need for make-up to enable their features to stand out better. The cloth tent on the one in the audience is illegal for a reason. It gives the impression of something or someone hiding. The reason is irrelevant. Since it’s illegal and this person chooses to break the law chances are there is more being hidden than just a cowardly woman. It could be anything – a woman with a gun or not even a woman, but a man preparing for yet another terrorist attack. Possibly the protests against the woman being removed have less to do with insulting an anonymous guest and more to do with foiling a planned terrorist attack. At this point France is right to protect those who truly love the opera not those who come under cover with other motives in mind.

    • pj

      You’re in cybersville

  • Des Demona

    ”and the French legislation racist ”
    I’d take slight issue with that. Islam is not a race, and besides she could have been one of those daft white bint converts.
    Personally I have no beef with people dressing up however they like. Providing their head and face is visible in appropriate situations.

    • Jackthesmilingblack

      “Islam is not a race”

      It’s a race when it wants to be. It’s a religion when it wants to be. It’s a culture when it wants to be. But it’s a murderous cult all the time.

      • Alexsandr

        its a professional victim.

      • Flower Powerchild

        yogurt has more culture

        • Jackthesmilingblack

          Especially vanilla flavour banana yogurt.

        • pj

          You see puerile racist comments that lack any kind of intellectual muscle like arguing with a half wit

          • Ukip tottie

            whinging complaining ever-demanding muslim

            what else is new?

      • pj

        The British monarchy used to behead people Off with their head they would scream that was murderous , some states in the US operate the death penalty and the only way to rid society of these barbaric practiced is education

        • Jackthesmilingblack

          And your point?

        • Pufferfish

          The Queen of Hearts wasn’t actually a British monarch. Just saying.

  • The problem with the full bin bag is that it might contain a bearded chap with an AK47 (or something more modern lifted my a mate in the Iraqi desert, kindly provided by Uncle Sam) and/or a few sticks of bangers. I would not sit or stand near one.

    • sebastian2

      I believe you; however, such weapons can also be concealed in men’s clothing too. Males don’t have to don the Full Guinness so to do. A large pair of trousers will suffice. The point about wearing it is not just for concealment’s sake but because these mohammedan cross-dressers believe political correctness will win them our extra deference and “respect”. We don’t stop and search them. So they may scuttle around our streets, laden with armaments and generally unchallenged. (At least, that’s the fear.) This gross cultural “sensitivity” will be our downfall.

  • Ali

    ‘And some especially valid if they oppose the oppressive, imperialist, white Christian hegemony’. Let us have some articles on freedom, democracy, loving your neighbour as yourself, let’s make the case for our ancient Anglo Saxon systems of parliamentary democracy, justice, equality before the law, our hundred years (almost) of women being allowed to vote.

    Let’s not always be on the defensive but champion these things. Of course the French attitude to this niqhab thing is wrong. They are French, that is all one needs to say. But I am so sick of people finding these arguments racist and wanting to close down debate so that one can’t get beyond the issue, to the subject of real liberty.

    Let us in the run up to the next election talk about what is great about the Anglo Saxon way of life and explain precisely why it is worth preserving. Let’s campaign to end the Sharia law and the Islamic inheritance laws which discriminate against Muslim women and show the world precisely why we should ‘hold fast to that which is good’, and not regard it as ‘oppressive, imperialist, white Christian hegemony’; before it is too late.

    • mrs1234

      ‘Let’s campaign to end the Sharia law and the Islamic inheritance laws which discriminate against Muslim women and show the world precisely why we should ‘hold fast to that which is good’, and not regard it as ‘oppressive, imperialist, white Christian hegemony’; before it is too late.’
      If only!

    • WimsThePhoenix

      If your avatar is truly representative, I fail to see why you think the French attitude is wrong. I do agree with the rest of what you say.

  • Jackthesmilingblack

    So Violetta got slung out on her ear.

  • Damaris Tighe

    The point that Rod is making is that the ‘clash of civilisations’ has become focussed on women’s apparel. To what extent is it right to dictate what a woman wears? This is all about a woman’s sexuality & the way different cultures deal with it.

    However, in these days of fast air travel & mass migration it’s also to do with how different cultures clash on the street. It’s discourteous to wear a boob tube in the Emirates. Likewise, it’s discourteous to cover the face in any western country. We find it just as offensive as an uncovered belly button. In both cases the woman’s choice of dress is a FU to the native people.

    Any host culture has the right to dictate how far its tolerance of the culturally unacceptable can go. The west views the covered face as sinister. Most of us are viscerally repelled by it because here social interaction depends on judging mood, motives & honesty disclosed by the face. Here, women matter so what their faces tell us is as important as a man’s. Therefore making the full burqa or niqab illegal is a reasonable statement & defence of our culture. It draws a line.

    • sfin

      And that’s, pretty much, how the law is stated here in France.

      It basically states that, whilst we do everything to accommodate and respect immigrant culture, OUR culture demands facial recognition and visual communication.

      It’s also worth noting that the law only applies in public. Women are free to wear the Niqab in their homes or places of worship, if they so wish.

      • Damaris Tighe

        Excellent law, excellently phrased. Trust the French to understand the difference between the public & the private, & to defend the public.

      • jesseventura2

        Do you think weak leaders like Blair,Brown,Cameron could ever ban this obscenity?

        • sfin

          No. Because the fundamental positions regarding immigration are different between Britain and France.

          Britain’s position is one of ‘diversity’ and ‘multiculturalism’ – where an immigrant culture has equal importance to the indigenous one (and any fool can see the potential for conflict with this policy!).

          France’s position, even if the reality is often different, is that all immigrants integrate with French culture. The so-called ‘Niqab ban’ actually refers to concealing one’s face in public and includes motorcycle helmets (when not on a motorcycle), masks etc.

          I, personally feel uncomfortable when I’m in Britain and see a woman wearing the niqab (just as I would feel uncomfortable if someone approached me wearing a full face motorcycle helmet.) and I don’t see why I should.

          • WimsThePhoenix

            Of course, when you say “Britain”, you are referring to the view of the Marxist puppet oligarchy that defers to Brussels on all things in exchange for a well-paid sinecure later in life.

          • global city

            It is the speed and extent of the initiative, quite deliberately orchestrated, that is the main problem. People moving around is no problem, but what Blair did was something akin to the destruction of the library at Alexandria….deliberate and wilful trashing of a civilisation, an attempt to diminish the old and supplant it.

            Funny how he chose the same cultural ideology to his work as undertook the destruction in Egypt all those centuries ago!

          • pj

            That’s you I feel uncomfortable when I see over large ladies exposing their midriff blubber in hot pants but I defend their right to do it .

          • Ukip tottie

            i’d rather see midriff blubber than women dressed as garbage bags, shuffling 3 steps behind their masters

            feel free to leave if you prefer that picture, bye-bye

          • Pufferfish

            I’d include it in the ban. Introduce the belly burqa now!

        • pj

          It’s about choice the same bigotry that dictates the cultural norm or lack of for the niquab is the same mob mentality that frowns upon alternative hairstyles, body art and piercings

      • ARDNASSAC

        Riots and revenge acts were forecast at its introduction; little followed but few arrests too.

        • sfin

          Good point – the law is hugely popular amongst all ethnic groups, as it reinforces everyone’s “Frenchness?” (my adjective). Certain muslim women still wear the head scarf – but normally in conjunction with some other western clothing, such as jeans. – and allows their identity as a french muslim – as opposed to just ‘ muslim’.

    • StupidWhiningMen

      Only misogynists think a woman’s body is all about her sexuality.

      • Tim Reed

        Hello Liz.

      • Damaris Tighe

        Hello getlost. Did I say it was? If you read without your knee jerk hostility & witch hunting you’ll see that I said that dictating what a woman wears is.

      • WimsThePhoenix

        Only raging sapphic feminists think it isn’t.

        • StupidWhiningMen

          Moron.

    • WimsThePhoenix

      Keeping the hair covered on pain of beating or worse is just as bad for more enlightened people.

    • Catherine Waterman

      Well put Damaris – you echo my own view entirely.

      Additionally, and an issue which is hardly mentioned whenever this subject is aired, there are serious health consequences for women and children who are kept under wraps and away from sunlight. For this reason, we are witnessing an alarming increase in cases of rickets amongst Muslim women and children who rarely (if ever) expose any amount of skin to sunlight. Obviously, this is also an additional burden on stretched NHS resources.

      Rickets is a serious bone disease caused by lack of vitamin D, which is synthesised in the body when the skin is exposed to sunlight. Apparently, we only need about 20 minutes of ultra violet light a day in order to produce enough of the vitamin to maintain bone health. The disease used to be rife in Victorian times due to extreme poverty, malnutrition and lack of fresh air and sunlight.

      I would argue that forcing a little girl to wear a burqa – or indeed, to prevent any child from exposing their skin to adequate fresh air and sunlight – is child neglect. For this reason, the parents should be reprimanded and taught the basics of general health care, which would include nurturing an inner sense of wellbeing.

      Another point: despite arguments to the contrary, wearing of the burqa is not a religious requirement (there is no mention of it in the Qu’ran). And even the European Court of Human Rights concedes that to ban the wearing of the garment in public places is not a breach of a person’s human rights. Thus, any country within the EU can choose to ban the garment if they so choose. The sooner we do so in the UK, the better.

    • pj

      I disagree it says the state will regulate what you wear and is a gross violation of a woman’s right to choose
      I also don’t agree with the wanton sexualisation of women as slabs of meat look how much newsprint is spent on Kim K arse and Miley Cyru’s boobsis that the summof the fight , a barrage of negative Muslim bashing is ignorant and sadly easy to do

      • Terry Field

        Why do you justify your belief-set and reinforce it by describing western women is sexual ways – irrespective of how they see themselves, YOUR head says they are wanton sex-objects. WHY do you do that? Also, why do you wish to ‘follow’ my observations? Another question for you? Do you consider that Islam and Western values are compatible in the same geographical space, and if so, why??

        • pj

          You describe women (Western) in sexual ways by emphasizing their sexuality ie Page 3of the Sun, topless women in a family newspaper the media encourages this and the way they describe Muslim dress as “sacks” “binliners” etc reveals that unless a woman is presented in a way that readily highlights their sexuality she is not “worthy” of comment .Absolutely Islam has been living in harmony with the West for centuries live and let live . Respect, tolerance and understanding is preferable to policing women’s clothes

          • Terry Field

            ‘I’ describe women???? No, in our western society, women fill every type of image and function according to their individual desires.
            That is far from the case in the world of Islam.
            To say otherwise is not to be truthful.
            As for compatibility, I am at present unconvinced.
            As are the great majority, I suggest, of ‘western’ minds.

          • pj

            You representing the dominant anti Muslim view . Look at Egypt Turkey Every type of function” wishful thinking
            most women even those in well paid jobs are derided for their looks or lack of sexuality, not paid the same a their make counterparts and ruthlessly teased if they dare to be different two lesbians who shared a kiss in Sainsburys were thrown out of the store how is that different from Muslim militancy . The cultural legacy of Cool Britannia naked selfies page 3 and an unregulated sex industry where women are ruthlessly exploited by men

          • Ukip tottie

            you’re seriously a cretin, your poor poor daughters

          • StupidWhiningMen

            Bless your naïveté.

      • Ukip tottie

        you wouldn’t dare treat me like a slab of meat, no matter what i’m wearing, I’d slap the misogynistic cave dweller right out of you!

        it is YOUR women that are treated like slabs of meat – and you don’t even see the irony. I make my own decision as to what I wear, your women are treated like sexual objects to be dressed how their master decides.
        I’m sure the irony of this will fail you.

  • Smiffy51

    It seems to have escaped Mr Liddle’s notice that the veil is a symbol of male oppression, not a fashion choice. The women imprisoned in these horrible hot garments are treated as chattels and have few human rights. They endure firced marriages, often to eldetly bigamists, at a very young age.

    He may think them a joke, the women in the UK who have fought a long hard battle for equality with men are horrified by them.

    • rodliddle

      Smiffy, read the article again, you moron. read it again. Then read it a fiftieth time. And then see, wilfully, what you want to see. My whole point is that the veil is a form of subjugation. It’s there in the piece. Read it.

      • StupidWhiningMen

        Meanwhile you trot out subjugating tripe about women who don’t wear them in the Middle East.

        • rodliddle

          No I don’t. Read it again. Read it until what I am saying penetrates your skull. Or don’t bother – in which case, don’t contribute.

          • WimsThePhoenix

            What you did say was that a woman should be allowed to choose what she wanted to wear, which neatly misses the point about women who HAVE NO BLOODY CHOICE.

          • StupidWhiningMen

            Once was more than enough for your contribution love.

  • Terence Wilkinson

    Bizarrely the European Court of Human Rights ruled that this law does not contravene human rights! And before people reply saying “it is the law” I would ask them to consider if a white woman would be arrested in France for wearing a balaclava? If the answer is no, then the law is racist. And shame on the opera singers for their “protest”. Did the niqab prevent them from singing? Did the woman harm them in any way?

    • StupidWhiningMen

      The law that protects the nicaab doesn’t protect women’s human rights, it protects men’s inhuman rights.

    • Fergus Pickering

      So the law is racist. It is still the law.

      • rodliddle

        Yes Fergus old chum, but we can object to the law, no?

        • Fergus Pickering

          Indeed we can. And I object to many laws and ignore them if I can. But I have no objection to any laws on account of racism which I consider quite irrelevant

    • Harry Pond

      Its not racist, she would have been kicked out if she was white, black or any other hue. The French have decided that many women are coerced into wearing it.

    • Flower Powerchild

      she wasn’t arrested, she had a choice, she left

      byebye

      • Terence Wilkinson

        And if she had no left would they have arrested her and given her a criminal record for covering her face in a darkened theatre where most people’s attention would have been on the stage? And to people who say “it’s the law” I would remind them that is what they said about the Nuremberg Laws.

        • Guest

          if you don’t like our ‘Nuremberg Laws’, go live in a Muslim countries with their wonderful Paradise laws – like hanging raped women!

          enjoy

  • Davey

    Blimey, this guy Liddle changes his tune more often than the operas he claims to despise. First he’s for Islam, with all it’s weird customs, then he’s against it. Point is, countries have certain laws which civilised people need to obey when they are in them! I believe that in Papua New Guinea the men walk around with their naked penises held proudly erect with a string made from dead vegetation. I’m sure that if one of these guys turned up at the Royal Albert Hall, he’d be discretely and politely asked to ‘cover up’ even in this liberal society!

    • rodliddle

      I’m not “for” Islam. I’m for a bit of freedom, and thus not terribly keen on Islam.

      • Davey

        Ok, I get that, but ‘freedom’ can be a dangerous thing. Too much of it and before you know it, you have a foreign culture walking all over you.

    • Guest

      the image!!
      LOOL

    • ilPugliese

      Rod writes to stir things up, whatever they are.

  • John Andrews

    I have never spoken to a niqab-ed person and imagine it would be more like a phone-call with a stranger than a face-to-face chat. Also, I imagine none of them can speak English.

    • sebastian2

      You make a fair point in some ways but ………………… I have spoken to quite a lot of niqab wearing Gulf ladies and found them charming, considerate, intelligent, articulate (in English) and coquettishly wily. The highly sophisticated and intellectually quite liberated Gulf sheikah, for example, may surprise you even from behind the veil. That said, this is far from the entire story – as we know: Pakistan; Afghanistan; Bradford ……. we’re aware of the locations and the things that happen there and we are absolutely right to oppose all that.

      The niqab issue is quite a complex one, though, and there is much to consider, but it should not be assumed that every niqab wearer in all situations is inevitably a sort of repressed, exhausted pit-pony dwelling mostly in the dark. That said, the lady was in France where the law about this is clear; though I think our approach in the UK is actually more sensible.

      However, as I said, your concern is proper but, as I hope you’ll agree, it needs careful address.

      • John Andrews

        Thank you. Having spoken to many hijab-wearing women in the UK and in Islamic countries, my experience is the same as yours when talking to niqab-wearing women. So I believe what you say. But I find the niqab off-putting and reminiscent of an an armoured personnel carrier.

        • sebastian2

          Lol – but kinder on the features perhaps.

          What does concern me, though – taking the lady expelled from the opera as a possible instance – is that they may wear the niqab not from personal choice freely made, but because male family members insist on it. It is not a strict religious requirement but may be enforced as such. If so, it is the assumptions and practices lying behind this enforcement that I take issue with.

          Either way, I would not want to criminalise what could be very decent ladies indeed, for wearing this garment. It’s surely not impossible, moreover, that orthodox and quite bigoted families may forbid women from leaving the house at all if the niqab was illegal outside. Thus restricting even more the slight liberties they are allowed. This would be unfortunate. That said, I’m firmly convinced that they should remove it for reasonable purposes of identification. I once saw this removal insisted on by a male Turkish passport officer who was unmoved by the husband’s vigorous protests. So it can be done.

          But thank you for your thoughtful response. Have a nice day.

          • John Andrews

            I am pleased to agree with all you points.

    • Guest

      why would you even want to?
      they want to be invisible, so that’s the way they should be treated.
      Personally whenever I am confronted with a niqab wearer, I look beyond them, act as if they’re not even there, and don’t even acknowledge their existence.

    • puffletino

      Hi John, I have spoken to plenty of woman wearing the niqab and they all spoke English with perfect fluency. I agree that there are certainly grave problems with the radical fringe of Islam here (and my God, elsewhere), and that there are also problems with the (sizeable minority? Majority?) view on homosexuality etc – these views are at odds with liberal western culture, there is no doubt. But can I suggest that if you have such strong views on woman wearing the niqab it might be an idea to talk to some? Everyone I spoke with were nice enough. Just a thought mate. 🙂

      • John Andrews

        Thank you and yes. I would like to talk to them. The niquab reads like a ‘I don’t want to talk to you’ symbol to me and I am not much in the habit of talking to strangers anyway.

  • John Andrews

    I remember a traveller’s tale (from Upper Egypt c1930). He met a village lady wearing a jalabiya but no headscarf. Terrified of being seen, she threw the gown over her head to reveal a naked body. Might this custom be welcomed in Covent Garden?

  • William_Brown

    Hmmm. I shall think twice before wearing a bikini to a public stoning again.

  • Innit Bruv

    The woman in the Darth Vader outfit is obviously a bit more cultured than Mr. Liddle.

    • Fergus Pickering

      I think she goes because her husband goes. Her preferences don’t come into it.

    • Guest

      nothing says ‘culture’ like wearing a garbage bag to the Parisian Opera

      • Innit Bruv

        At least she was attending, which shows a bit more taste then
        Mr. Liddle

        • Ukip tottie

          for 10 minutes, until her master told her to leave because he did not want her showing her face – like a whore

          • Innit Bruv

            That’s 10 minutes longer than monkeymfc (aka Rod Liddle).

  • Innit Bruv

    Why does the woman in the photo have blue eyes and such fair skin?
    Strange one that….

    • StupidWhiningMen

      Because the Spectator’s picture editor is a conventional sexist. It’s the image that’s always used by the tabloids who want to titillate.

      • Fergus Pickering

        Well it’s tru that a lot of the bin-bag wearers on the tube are fat and one has the impression they are ugly. But muslim men might like them.

        • loftytom

          Trust me dear chap, given the lack of pulchritude among Arab women it’s a damn good job most of them veil up.

        • AJH1968

          Real feminists are women fighting ISIS(the Kurdish women in the Peshmerga and PYD),I doubt our feminists would last a day there. Instead of focusing on real issues, they pick fights over arbitrary and perceived slights. They even vote against ISIS to avoid the implication of siding with the real enemy (white males). What a demented and cowardly lot they truly are, I doubt the Kurdish women fighting ISIS have the luxury of picking who to have a grievance with.

          • Damaris Tighe

            I have so much respect for those women.

          • sebastian2

            Your final word is the most important: ” women”. They do all this but never abandon their womanhood. I share your respect for them. Our strutting and strident Feministas, on the other hand, abandon their womanhood and do sod all but whinge (so it often seems).

          • Damaris Tighe

            I’m a woman sebastian. I was a female pioneer in two male bastions a long time ago. Not only have I talked the talk, I’ve walked the walk.

            It amuses me when radfems come along & accuse me of not being feminist enough for them. I have had more experience of living feminism in my little finger than they have in their whole bodies. And managed to do it without hating & insulting men.

          • sebastian2

            I’m delighted to hear that. I meant absolutely no offense at all to those taking the path you have done. I respect you for it. But there are others ………………And those, unfortunately, gain publicity they perhaps do not deserve and that their cause can do without.

          • Damaris Tighe

            I didn’t take offence at all! I understood what you were saying & agreed. It’s sad that men have to be so on the defensive nowadays.

          • AJH1968

            My sisters are both degreed professionals, and I have to be careful with my comments (brothers tend to take a lot of abuse from time to time) and both consider themselves ardent feminists. However they both agree that contemporary feminism has been hi-jacked by a lunatic fringe. I think those magnificent Kurdish women make our sorry lunatic fringe look like a group of wannabe posers.

          • Damaris Tighe

            Couldn’t agree more. It led to sebastian misinterpreting my comment when in fact I was agreeing with him – perhaps because I described my past self as a feminist.

          • StupidWhiningMen

            You don’t know anything about Kurdish women. Kurdish women suffer high rates of honour killing.

          • Suzy61

            Well said Damaris. A strong woman, confident in herself, has no reason to hate or insult men, and what is more, they have no desire to. This is what the radfems hate the most.

          • StupidWhiningMen

            It’s great when women who know fuck all about feminism tell men what they want to hear, that really rocks.

          • Suzy61

            No, I’ll tell you what really rocks.

            A real woman (not that you would know fuck all about that) doesn’t need to hiss and spit hatred at men and blame them for all her woes.

            Real women don’t spend their lives screeching at men, they just get on with it (and usually much better if they have a supportive male companion beside them).

            Maybe I have been lucky in that almost all the men I have known have been worth knowing.

            Maybe you have been unlucky.

            I can’t help but wonder why?

          • StupidWhiningMen

            No you don’t. You’re a rape apologist and every time you get challenged you cry that you’re getting picked on.

          • StupidWhiningMen

            Whereas you can’t even rouse yourself to do that.

          • StupidWhiningMen

            I’m sure they’re thrilled.

          • StupidWhiningMen

            Why the fuck is it women’s responsibility to fight ISIS? They’re the natural conclusion of male self-entitlement, you fight them.

          • AJH1968

            Why on earth do you think I care what you think, I generally avoid your sort. Go and troll somebody else and mind your language.

    • sebastian2

      She may be Syrian, or Lebanese, or a Kurd, and married to an Emirati of Qatari or (worse still) a Saudi. Or not, being only a cosmetics company model (the eyes are very skilfully made up).

      Whatever. Many people living there carry, for reasons of past conquest and abduction, European genes. White concubines were especially valued. European characteristics are frequently observed.

      • Innit Bruv

        Dear Sebastian,
        I am aware of all of the above. I just find this particular photograph
        somewhat strange in a publication like the Spectator which at times,as far as I am concerned, panders to people’s worst instincts
        in a manner similar to that of some tabloids.
        Consequently,I would therefore have expected something a bit more “stereotypical”if you see what I mean (ie brown eyed and “swarthy”,) Hence my original comment.

    • pj

      If you had any inkling of the Muslim faith you’d know it’s a global religion and sees no colour or race the out-dated and frankly simplistic notion that all Muslims are coffee coloured with dark hair is over two decades behind . The new face of Islam is blonde and blue eyed keep up

      • Innit Bruv

        The overwhelming majority of women who wear the type of clothing seen in this picture do not have blue eyes or pale skin.
        I wasn’t referring to Muslims in general but to this particular photo.
        Try understanding what you read before jumping to conclusions you moron!!!

  • Innit Bruv

    A woman in a Darth Vader outfit goes to the opera. Rod Liddle would rather
    gnaw off his right leg instead. Make of that what you will……

  • StupidWhiningMen

    Being arrested for being physically visible* and being arrested for not being visible are not at all the same things in the sexism book.

    One is a contravention of a woman’s right to be present, and if she wishes s*xual. The other is a contravention of a man’s right to stop a woman from being present and if she wishes s*xual.

    The fact that you believe a visible woman is necessarily a s*xual one, and what’s more that you believe this is a justification for you being vile about her speaks to your own sexism and misogyny.

    • Damaris Tighe

      “The fact that you believe a visible woman is necessarily a s*xual one …”: try telling that to Emirati men.

    • rodliddle

      My point – and you are the only person dumb enough to need this explaining – is that arresting women for wearing too little, or too much is sexist, full stop. And in both cases I am lampooning the local view of those women. Ok? Now, kick off your shoes, sit back and enjoy a bar of chocolate or something.

      • StupidWhiningMen

        You can see how I might have missed your sexism being ironic. What with it using western sexist terms like slag and pie-eyed trollop rather than the favoured Muslim ones of various cuts of uncovered meat. And what with you recycling the titillating fake Muslimah photo favoured by the men of the tabloids.

        And far from being the only person dumb enough to think you’re sticking with previous form by insulting white women for not conforming to your medieval attitudes about sex, at least a dozen others in your comment thread have taken your lead and indulged in a little rank misogyny about sow-bellies, sides of ribs and immodesty.

        • rodliddle

          I see how you missed the irony, entirely. You’re very, very thick. Which is why I am guilty, in your eyes, for what other people write. Do you not comprehend that “pie-eyed trollop” is what THEY think those western women are? Are you really so thick that you don’t get that?

          • Damaris Tighe

            She doesn’t read Rod, she’s simply hunting for offence.

          • StupidWhiningMen

            Mind your own business Damaris you dumb groupie.

          • StupidWhiningMen

            Pop quiz: the phrases, “pie-eyed trollop”, “slagging around”, “boob tube”, “thong”, “characterless beaches” parody which of the following well known types of sexists:

            1) An Arabic Muslim Imam, who favour “uncovered meat for cats”
            2) A medieval Protestant firebrand who favour “wanted woman” and “Eve’s daughters”
            3) A dumbass Sun reader who favour.
            4) A dumbass professional troll blogger who writes about women’s sexual habits in disparaging ways approximately once a month and is still dining out on his radio 4 journalistic past.

            Prize: Rod Liddle’s stamp of approval on your intelligence. And a whisper bar.

      • StupidWhiningMen

        “arresting women for wearing too little, or too much is sexist, full stop”

        Firstly, you have mischaracterised what happened in France.
        Secondly, you have mischaracterised the the choice of western women to wear too little and the lack of choice of Muslim women to wear too much as equal opposites.
        Thirdly, so is using deeply misogynist themes to earn a living, and falling back on the lamest excuse in the book of “irony” when challenged on it. As is patronising me with lame-ass sexist stereotypes.

        Either change or toughen up to criticism.

  • StupidWhiningMen

    I dont see how a nicaab will help to disguise you being asleep at the opera. Perhaps you have confused it with the burquh.

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  • StupidWhiningMen

    “dressing like pie-eyed trollops out on the slag, if I can put it like that”

    No you can’t out it like that you poisonous troll.

    • Tim Reed

      He can, and he did, oh self-appointed guardian of approved language.

      • StupidWhiningMen

        He was asking for my approval. Like the needy little misogynist he is.

        • loftytom

          Only in the addled collection of mutant cells that passes for your brain.

          • StupidWhiningMen

            Why do you think people write “ironic” provocative sexist/racist/homophobic/disablist things as opposed to just thinking them? Needy needy needy.

    • sebastian2

      Yes he can. You may not think this good reason for agreeing but ……… I did spend many years in that hot and overindulged region. Many (not all) of the British ex-pat women I saw were, frankly, awful (tight black leggings, overweight, disheveled hair, ill-fitting tops and generally looking like Max Wall) leading some of us to propose a theory. This was that British women had with supreme self sacrifice invited all the world’s manly-feminist and strumpet-esque horrors to descend on them, leaving all the beauty, charm and grace to settle on the rest. And indeed, it was expat women from these other climes that looked and acted the better. Looked and acted the better with far, far less money and benefits. No wonder so many husbands upon meeting such ladies – superbly strong but elegant in behaviour and demeanour – ditch their ghastly, grumpy and assertive wives for the alternative.

      Many (not all) British women have seriously lost it. “A dog’s bum with a hat on.” as Spike Milligan said once.

  • StupidWhiningMen

    Liddle’s never been to Dubai have you, your opinions on it are as tabloid-driven as your ones on opera, so perhaps you should have led with that.

    And as far as I’m aware no western woman has been arrested for wearing a boob tube in the gulf. No woman has worn a boob tube since the 80s. They’ve been harassed and at times physically attacked for dressing like the tourists the gulf assiduously cultivates to bolster its economy. Or like ex pats which make up the majority of Dubai’s population.

    Funny how a man showing his arms or neck or legs is just a man keeping cool. A woman meanwhile is some convoluted sexist construct of the medieval western male’s mind.

    • rodliddle

      I’m banned from Dubai, as it happens.

      • StupidWhiningMen

        Possibly time to give up the boob tube. It’s the 21st century grandad.

  • Fergus Pickering

    La Traviata is quite short. It’s Wagner that is interminable. The Germans are to blame for that. They think great art has to be boring. Italians don’t. Dante is a barrel of laughs.

    • AJH1968

      Operas like Puccini’s you never want to end, and it sure beats watching several cadaverous musicians (like the Stones) on stage trying to grasp former glory, and the odd groupie. Although Wagner’s ring cycle can be excruciating.

      • Fergus Pickering

        How very true.

  • Christian

    Cutting through all the froth and bubble, it’s really quite simple; you can’t cover your face. The End………

  • kazdix

    I thought that Islam forbade music? so was it a silent opera?

  • She broke the law of the country. Simples. No excuses.

  • Hole_in_One

    I refuse to comment until 25th October, the stated publication date on the blog

  • jesseventura2

    Yes give them airline tickets courtesy of British tax payers to get these vermin out of here and off our welfare?
    Tony the phony Blair and his cursed family on one of these flights.

  • Lydia Robinson

    Rod reserves his real venom for a mentally ill man who disturbed his train journey home once. It could be argued that making women dress like this or – worse still – who voluntarily choose to wear it is a sign of mental illness, though.

    • StupidWhiningMen

      Rod Liddle is the best kind of bully: one with a wafer thin skin.

  • Lydia Robinson

    It’s worth remembering what one of their charming clerics said about uncovered women once. Clerics, such as Sheik Taj Din al-Hilali, have
    said that unveiled victims of public rape invited their attackers: “If I
    came across a rape crime – kidnap and violation of honour – I would discipline
    the man and order that the woman be arrested and jailed for life.’ Why would you
    do this, Rafihi? He says because if she had not left the meat uncovered,
    the cat wouldn’t have snatched it… If you take uncovered meat and put it
    on the street, on the pavement, in a garden, in a park or in the backyard,
    without a cover and the cats eat it, is it the fault of the cat or the uncovered
    meat? The uncovered meat is the problem.”

    If we go down the path of defending this garment, what’s to stop a group of Chinese men saying they have the right to bring back foot binding or for males to make women wear chastity belts?

    • StupidWhiningMen

      There are several men in this thread saying the same thing. The attitude isn’t limited to Muslim men. And Rod Liddle’s “ironic” (or frequent at least) slut-shaming language comes from exactly the same medieval misogynist mindset.

  • Blindsideflanker

    I don’t remember hearing any outrage at Muslim countries taking a poor view of people having sex on a beech, getting legless, or wearing little if any clothing. As far as I could tell the reaction was it was their country to do as they choose.

    The Wahabi religious garb though is more than just clothing, it is a religious uniform of an Islamofascist sect. Though people have the right to wear what clothing they like, there was also a cultural value here that required people to keep their religious affiliations a private matter to enable all to rub along as individuals. Wearing an Islamofascist uniform should not be considered in the category as just another item of clothing. If a woman decided to wear an SS Uniform, would that be considered as ‘just’ another item of clothing?

    • Andrew Smith

      “sex on a beech”. I didn’t know that beech trees grew in many Musliin countries:)

      • Harry Pond

        Sex up a tree is not recommended, especially when legless and wearing little clothing.

        • Swanky

          Why not? That sounds ideal.

          • Harry Pond

            Tsk tsk, you Americans, sex mad.

  • grandpa1940

    What I cannot figure is what a Muslim woman, veiled or not, is doing sitting in an audience watching and listening to an Opera whose story-line is that of a young man’s infatuation for a prostitute, that same prostitute’s high-living and hedonistic lifestyle, complete with lots of booze, the intrusion of the lover’s father into the affair; and the acceptance by the prostitute of the father’s heartfelt plea that she breaks with the young man, dying though she may be, and head off back to the sinful life of Paris, and away from the young man’s cash!

    I would argue that the draw is the superb music, and the wonderul singing, but surely a good Muslim woman should shun these terrible signs of depraved Western life, and get back to her kitchen, and her fifteen jihadi-in-training children; and once more be totally subservient to her husband; while he gets to do exactly what he wishes!

    • WimsThePhoenix

      She didn’t have any choice. A chap takes his chattels to the opera because he can.

    • Guest

      her owner probably dragged her there to gawk at western women, and then shoved back into obscurity when they asked her to unveil herself

    • pj

      What a sad reflection of
      British vitriol you are so bereft of culture and your poverty of ignorance is frankly upsetting

      • Ukip tottie

        nothing says culture, non-hatred, sophistication and enlightenment like millions of mouth foaming muslims storming squares in violent mobs all across the globe, burning down embassies, beheading UN workers and attacking foreign business – over A CARTOON!!!

        yeah, we’re the crazy ones, that why you people live so well..

  • Terry Field

    I think one would have to have an IQ like a bowl of butterscotch angel delight, to wish to have these volatile, religious zealots in our country at all.
    Their appearance after the second world war is only desirable to the clinically insane.
    if they wear a veil, a plastic bag or a large meringue is of no consequence – although there seems to be – in every sense – a disturbing similarity between the hijab and abaya and the garb of the Klu Klux Clan.
    Our country’s history, its culture, its indiginous people are now defiled.
    Nothing but further degradation is in prospect,
    The rest of the above article simply does not matter.

  • Linda Smith

    Just heard on the radio that 2 men sent to prison for 5 years for robbing a jewellery shop wearing full “burqas”. That should be adequate reason to ban face coverings.

    • ilPugliese

      5 years for robbery. How many were accidentally killed in the process?

  • Kasperlos

    Leftist neo Marxist academia, corrupt politicians and the transnational corporate types all hail the multicultural divesity foisted upon these islands and the West in general. In particular the radical and insane academics are akin to those brain washed acolytes waving their litte red books during the Mao cult. Only these acolytes earn six figure salaries and travel expenses. The results are that the average Briton suffers the slings and arrows of diverse cultural confusion whilst the academics et al retreat to their private leafy abodes after their day lecturing others or passing laws to make life a bit more miserable on the streets. Back to the future, that would be 7th century.

  • Richard Eldritch

    It’s the Islamic version of a white sheet and pointy hat.

  • UnionJihack

    Funny that. I bought my 6 year old god-daughter a Darth Vader outfit for her Bar Mitzvah, to prepare her for life and the dark side of Capitalism. See loved it, in particular the fully operational mask with voice-transform feature. ‘give me your money’, ‘I want more QE’ were the first cracking jokes she came out with, all by herself.
    Ahh … what a girl. She will go far in England, the land of equality.

    • jjjj

      Bat Mitzvah. Sorry, couldn’t resist being pedantic.

  • balance_and_reason

    You western degenerate dogs will eat the sand of misery. It is written that women must bow their heads to men, it is written that a woman must dress in modesty. The whirlwind of IS will reap a thousand infidel mongrels every day, and a few more in the evening, and even a couple late in the night, even though good muslims should be in bed at that time. Allah Akerber

    • Guest

      but who is eating sand right now?

      hehehe, you know what’s funny?
      nobody kills as many muslims as you muslims!

      hahaha

    • Guest

      Allah HATES you!

      he makes you live like rats and cockroaches, you behead, burn, rape, gas and eat each other, and then you think we are degenerate?

      look at all your countries, everywhere you are, there is death, misery and squalor. Allah spits on you everyday, and you are too stupid to notice.
      A couple of nukes eventually will solve this problem, keep threatening, Abdul, keep threatening, remember the crusades? Keep attacking and provoking those who are stronger than yourself, keep at it. Once India, Russia, China, US, Europe, Israel, Canada, Australia get together, you’ll all be reunited with Satan, your leader.

      • balance_and_reason

        I am content to live in a cave in the dessert, eat locusts and pray. My children are trained also thus; we will come for you to bring you eternal life at the edge of my steel….infidel, Allah is waiting and will outlast your soft decadent vermin alliances….the flames of battle test my faith , what does not kill me makes me stronger, when I move to paradise my sons will fight on with more rage…run you she man milksop, or my goats will feed on your timid foolery.

        • Guest

          ‘I am content to live in a cave in the dessert (sic)’

          you filthy parasites come to our countries, we give you mosques, schools, houses, jobs, and benefits, and this is how you repay us, by THREATENING US and our children?

          Your pathetic cockroach would still be crawling on your smelly belly if it wasn’t for the west, but soon we’l bomb you back to the dark ages. You’re already nearly there anyway.

          eff off then, Heathrow is west, good riddance you ungrateful parasite!

        • Damaris Tighe

          Don’t bother, your irony is lost on the pea-brains.

          • jjjj

            Perhaps they are all being ironic…

          • Swanky

            He doesn’t have irony, he has a bad alloy.

        • Swanky

          You’re a shitty joker and it’s a shitty joke. Shit off.

      • GraveDave

        He’s not real. Jeez.

    • Flower Powerchild

      ‘BALANCE AND REASON’

      BWAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAAH
      hahahahahhahahahahahahahahahahhaha…….hohohohohooho………..
      hihihihihihihihhi……………………………….hehehehehehehhe…………hahahahahhahahahahahahahhaha

      oh my god, my stomach hurts…….aaaaahhhhhhh ahhhhh ahhh aha ah

      p.s.: I hope your IP address is being monitored

    • Suzy61

      In bed? Too busy with the child prostitutes…not to mention the casinos and pubs and then going home to rape and beat your own sisters if all else fails. Dogs have more morals than you lot.

  • ARDNASSAC

    You say this is unfair to women. How do you know it is a woman under the niqab?
    When the first beheading takes place in the Royal Opera House by fanatics shielded by the niqab, will you then change your tune?

  • Jankers

    The Burqa, worth it simply to see the feminist brain cell smoulder with dissonance.

    • StupidWhiningMen

      Whack one on then. You’re worth it.

  • WimsThePhoenix

    You just don’t get it Rod. Letting a woman dress “HOW THEY WISH” when they come from a patriarchal society, means letting a woman dress HOW THEIR MENFOLK wish.

    The only way to REALLY let them dress how they wish AND AVOID PHYSICAL PUNISHMENT is to ban these bloody bin bags.

    If we can stop people SAYING what they wish, and we DO on the specious basis that someone MIGHT be offended, how much more important is it stop people being oppressed in a garment signifying that they are a lump of meat whose only purpose in life is to bring another little Mohammed, or mother of one into the world?

  • M.Tinney

    “I don’t care what you wear. I care what you believe.”

    What you wear is often influenced by what you believe and so it’s right to care about clothes, especially if they differ significantly from what your particular society thinks of as normal. Hence a slight ripple of disapproval among the natives if a girl were to turn up at Mecca in a miniskirt.

    There are only two reasons for a woman to wear a full veil – she wants to or she is forced to by her husband or family. The latter is or should be unacceptable in
    our country.
    f the former, that for me is no different to the wearing of a Swastika armband and a black uniform, because the veil and the Swastika mean essentially the same thing – the wearer rejects society’s standards, its traditions, its morals, its codes of behaviour and openly broadcasts that she or he subscribes to a set of beliefs that are alien and hostile and that if and when the followers of that belief gain power,
    they will crush the society that has allowed them to flourish and impose a new
    order of intolerance and savagery.

    I doubt if you, Mr Liddle, would had been relaxed about the Swastika being flaunted in Germany in the early 1920s because you would have had the intelligence to understand its implications. So just drop your fashionable criticism that banning the veil is both sexist and racist and concentrate on what its spread means for the Western world. I would ban it not just in Britain, but would hope that no country would tolerate it outside the Muslim world.

  • Jim

    “the full Darth Vader”
    I’ve always referred to it as ‘full ninja’.

  • MaryWells

    None of this changes the fact that she also represented a security threat, based on current events. It’s not about her; it’s about the people on the stage and whether or not it’s influencing their performance. Apparently, it was. I would think, based on what’s written above, she would have thanked them on her way out because she didn’t want to be there anyway. It’s a win-win situation then!

  • ilPugliese

    Hiding behind various degrees of covering up is anathema to me. No overt religion please. We’re British.

    • Bonkim

      Have you seen what Victorian Englishwomen of rank were wearing?

      • ilPugliese

        Yes. Are you suggesting what women wore in the 1800s is appropriate to women today?

        • Bonkim

          In a free society people can wear what they want as long as they don’t expose their private parts. Even that may be acceptable at certain locations. Rod Liddle sums all that nicely and is well-reasoned.

          The veil was part of a woman’s attire in many parts of the world, also in Europe, even today look up what the Greeks and Spanish formal dreeses look like, fashionistas of the 20th century. Look up some of the photos of Hollywood stars of the 1940s and 50s. What is appropriate is left to the individual – not to others.

          • ilPugliese

            The people who want to wear the type of clothing discussed in the article are not in our society and they are not doing it because they’re free. The arguments for and against this this don’t need repeating. Rod Liddle is a controversialist and earns his living by stirring things up. He says the Muslim masses create regimes that are unpleasant, punitive and illiberal, but deliberately doesn’t equate that with what they are doing to women here. Such clothing was worn in religious and traditional communities in West Europe and you can still see older women with their heads covered in remote places. But nowadays we are not dominated by religion here, thank God. More generally, you are fantasising if you think people can wear what they like. Anywhere.

          • Bonkim

            You are obviously not British and do not understand British values of individualism and rule of law. Inernal politics are a feature of all societies and cultural practices, codes of behaviour and attire are all part of the make up, having said that so is tolerance towards those that do not conform to the norm as long as they do not harm the rest or create disorder when rule of law steps in. Simply because you have deep seated prejudice against Islam or Christians or others and their cultural practices does not permit you to be prejudicial.

            I may not like religion – any religion believing all are superstitions or homo-sexuals people practising promiscuous sex, don’t have good manners, the uneducated, wear ear rings, smelly, or people who smoke or drink silly and vomit on pavements – but the law of the land allows them to do all that so have to accept and tolerate – no one is asking you to socialize/mix with types that you don’t like equally they have their rights. that is why Britain is Great – unlike Ukraine or Poland or India or Saudi Arabia or Zimbabwe, or other parts of the world where narrow religious or backward cultural norms prevail and people treated differently often oppressed.

            Britain is a haven of freedom, has been and will remain so regardless of minority of bigots.

          • ilPugliese

            Thanks for explaining where you are coming from. I am British born and have lived in London most of my life. I think it is a great country and one of the most tolerant places in the world. That tolerance is being tested to the limit at the moment. As you say, other places have a narrow religious or backward cultural norm, and they are coming here in large numbers. I know there are right wing extremist nutters who are exploiting this, but your average person sees the issue as dilution of the very culture you (and I) want to conserve. Other cultures have come here in small numbers, and most have become integrated and adopted our ways. Those who have not are small in number and do not exert a great deal of influence.

          • Bonkim

            London – special case – many come on business or well to do and stay on and off.

            British ways have evolved over the centuries/decades and only difference is the pace of change and also speed of travel/numbers – but the change was within prevailing law and government of the day will deal with what is practical and necessary. British people have criss crossed the Globe and knew how to cope with diversity – the hallmark was adapt and change. There are conflicts but by and large and the British of all people have dealt with islam and other cultures in the past and know the ins and out. Exotic attire and head/face coverings are not critical to ones discussion. If any harmful cultural practices impact on well being of the rest those can and are dealt with by the law. Think how ridiculous a fair skinned half naked European man and woman would have looked in say the Arabian desert or Asia in the 1800s – yes some were attacked but by and large you will find people managed the differences in the past. there were Asians, Africans and Arabs in Britain wearing their traditional garb.

            Whilst recognize Britain is overcrowded and overpopulated and need for strict immigration control, the Islamic dress is not an issue. Look at what is happening in France – once intolerance takes hold – it would not just be Muslims but Jews, Irish, etc, etc, they are already terrorizing Jews wearing skull caps in Paris. Surely you don’t want that in London.

            You will find the present hysteria is linked to mass immigration (mostly legal) in the last few years and the more worrying in the huge influx of EU migrants that will cling to their cultures and religions even more than those from Asia/Africa that were/are Anglicised over decades. Catholics from say Poland/Ukraine/Eastern Europe producing more babies than say most from Asia.

          • ilPugliese

            Very Guardianista, but I think your confidence in our laws and their enforcers to manage this change and any resulting conflicts is naive. I don’t want anyone terrorised in this country but I fear that history is not on my side. We have not faced such a challenge to our culture before. Side by side with this, we have recently (in the last 50 years or so) thrown off the religious repression that made life a misery for so many. But our secularity is fragile as it is not in itself an organised movement (as it should not be) and I don’t want it to be replaced with other religions.

          • Bonkim

            Not perfect but one of the best prevailing across the Globe. As an atheist/agnostic/individualist belonging to any group is contrary to ones belief. Yes those with strong belief systems can act in bigoted fashion and intellectuals won’t. By and large the democratic system can and will tighten up so those religious nutters wishing to do us harm will be checked. To repeat Muslim and Jewish women or those from certain religious orders wishing to wear head/face coverings don’t threaten our freedoms. Have you seen how French nuns dress up – many children will be frightened.

          • Swanky

            Why don’t you piss off to The Guardian where you’ll be at home? Or the Tailor and Cutter, what do I care? Just piss off, there’s a good hookworm.

          • Bonkim

            Do you have a brain?

          • StupidWhiningMen

            Not trying to censor are you?

          • Swanky

            No, although there are good arguments for certain kinds of censorship, depending on the circs. (That’s why we have a mild form of it as ‘moderation’ on sites like this.) Really it was late, I’d been sampling the wine as I do, and I lost patience for whatever foolishness this chap was offering. But sniping at people is not my usual style.

          • Swanky

            Here we go again with the Leftist idiot who — what a surprise — likes the oppression of women. And The Speccie readers need your presence because… [CRICKETS]

          • GraveDave

            I know there are right wing extremist nutters who are exploiting this,

            Now thanks to the left wing extremist nutters and their extended protection to all things black, foreign or Islamic,these right wing extremist nutters are beginning to look as they were right all along.
            Way to go…

          • ilPugliese

            Only too true.

          • Swanky

            You evidently have no understanding yourself, so stop smearing others by way of (poor) reply.

            Men overrate themselves, and always have. What if the women were as wicked as men and killed the boys every chance they had? Easily done, easy when the men are away. The best among us are the females. You are the among the sods that think otherwise. I am glad I’ve never played this game, nor had a daughter whose fate I must worry about.

          • Bonkim

            all are equal in my eyes. You are a bigot.

          • cartimandua

            No we don’t parade religious fundamentalism or a sadomasochistic perversion in public space. We don’t parade slavery either. We don’t do these things for very good reasons.
            If worldwide it didn’t means rape slavery and mass murder one
            might feel “OK on special occasions.
            But it does mean all those things and the selfishness of anyone wearing it is as absurd as it is disgusting.

          • Bonkim

            Who is this Royal ‘We’ you represent? Where did you learn your English?

          • cartimandua

            Not English then Bonkim? The people on the islands became tolerant of each others beliefs by developing behaviour.
            A large part of that is not parading religiosity and tribalism in public.
            We don’t “like” people wearing KKK hoods or SS uniforms either and that is just what “covering” of any kind is. It is the uniform of and propaganda for what is currently the worst
            people on the planet whether they are in Syria or Nigeria.

          • Bonkim

            Adapt and change, British people don’t mind veils in public or other forms of exotic dresses. What makes you think parading religiosity is banned? Many wear crosses and other pendants, bangles, etc, which may have so connection with their beliefs/culture. KKK Hoods and SS Uniforms – wear them if you want – not many recognize these in any case.

          • cartimandua

            Its not formally banned but it is a developed behaviour Muslims don’t understand. It developed for excellent reasons.
            And no what a ridiculous suggestion to “wear KKK hoods if you want to”.
            To have freedom of individual belief tribalism has to be set aside. Gang colours should be left at home.
            “covering” is the gang colours of the worst ideology and people on the planet. They are currently raping, mass murdering, beheading etc in a number of places around the globe.
            Individuals should have the decency not to promote the monsters.

          • Bonkim

            You don’t appear to have gone to any football matches in Glasgow or the Edinburgh Tattoo. People like belonging to groups and feel secure – and raping, mass murders, beheading, etc, not just by Muslims – and you are being alarmist. Look around the world such things are taking lace in many places – and likelihood of Britain experiencing all that – you are being an alarmist.

            KKK are not Muslim or the SS and neo-Nazis of Ukraine – agree we don’t want them in Britain same as Muslim Jihadists butt now and then some will leak in like the Ukrainian Nazi that murdered that old man. Many Christians did similar things in the recent past, and feared in many parts of the world – does not mean all Christians are evil or that you should ban Nuns and Christian Priests from wearing their full body covering and Crosses.

          • cartimandua

            A reputable source gives the number of victims of Muslim grooming gangs at half a million.
            Of course its “a problem” when a culture views females as of less worth than goats.
            That culture is not equal to ours and it is represented by treating women as a covered uterus on legs.
            Nuns and Priests are native to this country. Their ideology is not now toxic and violent (although it was in Ireland and is still a problem). They are not a problem in the UK but Muslims are.
            The Muslims who are concrete thinkers are a problem.
            Belief is in your heart not on your head.

          • Bonkim

            Are you talking about Victorian England? You are a bigot none the less and patently un-British. Do we need your kind here?

          • Swanky

            Oh shut up you stupid oaf.

          • Bonkim

            end of your reason then!

          • Swanky

            That culture is not equal to ours

            Exactly. What is it about this truth that the Archbishop of Canterbury does not understand?

          • Swanky

            Dhimmi. We’ll oppose you while you align with the oppressors.

          • Bonkim

            Don’t understand the lingo – Dhimmi? Are you from Somalia?

          • Swanky

            Oh sod off you thoughtless git.

          • Bonkim

            Repeating yourself? brain getting tired? Go to sleep, take your tablets.

          • Guest

            Dork.

          • Bonkim

            wear what you want or streak – it is a free society.

        • Swanky

          Yes: he has nothing of worth to contribute but rather likes being a human with male gonads. It’s pathetic. Need I go on?

          • ilPugliese

            I quite like being that too, but perhaps a bit more than that and a bit differently!

      • StupidWhiningMen

        You do know that the Victorian era was patriarchal, right?

        • Bonkim

          Patriarchy was the norm except is a few societies where the women dominated. It still is and women are exploited but to a lesser extent – just compare wages of women compared with that of men in many jobs. But in law equality is the norm in the West. Regarding wearing veils, etc, much of it is cultural as was wearing of full body dresses and hats/veils in Victorian England or the US – look at the full body dresses of 19th and early 20th century and in Europe/Asia too. Of course the weather had something to with that too – flowing robes and full body covering was useful in the desert heat.

          People moaning about Muslim Hijab, etc, don’t give a damn about women’s equality – simply letting off their spleen against an alien culture.

          Patriarchy is embedded in the Bible and Koran, also most other religious belief systems.

          From the Bible ”

          1 Corinthians 11:3-12

          “Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God. 4Every man who prays or prophesies with his head covered dishonors his head. 5And every woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head—it is just as though her head were shaved. 6If a woman does not cover her head, she should have her hair cut off; and if it is a disgrace for a woman to have her hair cut or shaved off, she should cover her head. 7A man ought not to cover his head,[a]since he is the image and glory of God; but the woman is the glory of man. 8For man did not come from woman, but woman from man; 9neither was man created for woman, but woman for man. 10For this reason, and because of the angels the woman ought to have a sign of authority on her head.”

  • Jackthesmilingblack

    Way to go, France. Don’t hold your breath waiting for gutless Britain to follow suit.

  • Bonkim

    Spot on – You summed up the situation in a nutshell. Your problem is that most reading this page are partisan and will miss the finer points you make. Black and white is what most want.

    • Guest

      Whereas unlike most reading this page, you have no brain.

  • Ukip tottie

    vile and disgusting garment, forced upon women by savages, troglodytes and barbarians, to advertise their power over them.

    it has no place in civilised society and should be banned, no ifs or buts.

    • GraveDave

      Thought UKIP were supposed to be libertarian.Then we hear Nigel joining in the rebukes against Fallon for using the term ‘swamped’.
      Hilarious all round politically correct, comic cuts.
      I wish I knew who to vote for.

      • Ukip tottie

        me too actually

        ; )

      • cartimandua

        Small state doesn’t mean “stupid” permitting the wearing of an enemy uniform and enemy propaganda is just stupid.

  • sasboy

    This is a free world, let the women dress as they please.

    • Ukip tottie

      even in saudi?
      or only in civilised countries?

    • cartimandua

      Until a Muslim woman has real life choices she has no choice about dress.

    • Guest

      Twat

  • sasboy

    Why doesn’t the author deal with his own misogyny ?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rod_Liddle#Alleged_misogyny_and_racism

    • rodliddle

      or why doesn’t he deal with Wikipedia. One of the two, then.

  • cartimandua

    Soo KKK hoods and SS uniforms are OK with Liddle are they? Uniforms are propaganda in a way nudity cannot be. And no a woman dressed appropriately
    for a hot climate is not “dressed like a slag”.

    • StupidWhiningMen

      You have to understand the conservative man’s mind, whether that be the Muslim conservative, the right-wing conservative, or the fake left-wing conservative who makes a living off click bait.

  • cartimandua

    We have individual freedom of belief here because over centuries we learned to keep religion in the private sphere.
    It risks that and it risks the civil peace for anyone to parade their fundamentalist religious beliefs.

  • Emilia

    In the west, covering your face has always meant that you intend to rob a stagecoach or a bank, throw a petrol bomb or something similar. We have a right to see the faces of those who share our public space, and anyway why can’t a man go into a shop wearing an open-face helmet but a woman can go in with just her eyes (or not even those) showing? Surely that’s illegal sex-discrimination? Who can tell what sex is even under these garments, or what else they may be concealing? Everywhere we go is covered by CCTV, “for our security”, but these people can choose to opt out of it. Doesn’t that discriminate against the rest of us? Most of the women who cover their faces are young and have local accents, so they have not ‘brought’ this alien custom with them from the back of beyond, they have made a free choice to declare that they do not wish to belong to our society and we allow them to glide incognito amongst us. We should NOT.

  • StupidWhiningMen

    “But surely we should let people wear what the hell they want. That’s what we value over here, isn’t it, freedom?”

    Allowing women to wear the hijab, the nicaab, the burquh is letting them wear what the hell the men who set themselves up as prophets, wrote their holy books, run their religion and run their lives tell them they want.

    A choice between hell and “modesty” (ie. sleep with who I tell you to) isn’t a free choice.

  • ADW

    Why didn’t they insist on consistency and require the husband to cover his face as well?

  • Swanky

    Rod: It’s not just arid: it’s life-hating, against reason in any form, and it views all forms of modernity as justly deserving death. In short, it’s the lunatic trying to run the asylum. You cannot treat this lunatic… you can only… take a guess.

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  • A few years ago, I saw a veiled woman, with her husband, inside a sex shop in the Pigalle! Honest truth!

  • Pacificweather

    Nice picture. A Muslim with blue eyes. Not many of them but she managed to get into the Spectator.

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