Status anxiety

Voting Remain is an act of heartless snobbery

14 May 2016

9:00 AM

14 May 2016

9:00 AM

One of the interesting features of the Brexit debate is that it has laid bare a schism in British society which runs much deeper than the conventional Labour-Conservative divide. On the one hand, we have the prosperous, educated elite, mainly based in cities and university towns, who are liberal on social issues, pro-immigration, believers in free trade and internationalist in outlook. On the other, we have the white working class, clustered in areas of economic stagnation, particularly seaside towns, who are socially conservative, anti-immigration, suspicious of free trade and staunchly nationalist.

This isn’t a perfect summary. Dan Hannan, Boris Johnson and Michael Gove fall more naturally into the first category, whereas Scottish and Welsh nationalists are mainly pro-EU. But it’s broadly true. Two years ago, the political scientist Chris Hanretty ranked all 650 British constituencies according to how likely they were to support Brexit. The five least eurosceptic are Edinburgh South, Manchester Withington, Edinburgh North and Leith, Bristol West and Hornsey and Wood Green, whereas the five most are Clacton, Castle Point, Great Yarmouth, Christchurch and Blackpool North and Cleveleys.

On the face of it, this is a good argument for Remain. ‘Clacton-on-Sea is going nowhere,’ wrote Matthew Parris in an infamous Times column about Ukip’s only seat. ‘This is Britain on crutches. This is tracksuit-and-trainers Britain, tattoo-parlour Britain, all-our-yesterdays Britain.’


He is right, up to a point. Brexiters are less educated (only 15 per cent are graduates, says YouGov, against 37 per cent of Remainers) and older (Clacton has the highest proportion of retirees in England and Wales). These elderly, uneducated, lumpen proles are dying off, goes the argument, so why pander to their Little England prejudices? It would be crazy to risk trading links, renege on international obligations and clamp down on immigration just to make a bunch of losers feel less out of place in the modern world. (Parris: ‘A Britain that has forgotten the joys of Ken Dodd, meat pies, smoking in pubs and the Bee Gees.’) Whereas a vote to Remain is a vote for the Britain of tomorrow: young, educated, multi-ethnic, pansexual and cosmopolitan.

But is that really a good reason to stay in? It’s a peculiarly heartless argument and sits oddly with Europhiles’ self-understanding as the nice guys. It’s a toxic mixture of snobbery and ad hominem: let’s vote Remain because the people who want to Leave eat too much cake, to channel Emma Thompson. Swap white working class for another demographic (African-Caribbean, for instance) and it’s straightforwardly racist, though good luck trying to persuade the police to take a charge of anti-white racism seriously. They’d probably arrest you for being ‘offensive’.

In fact, I think the growing chasm between the winners and the losers from globalisation is a reason to vote Leave. The Europhiles naively imagine that in 30 years the whole country will look more like them. But as mass immigration continues and more and more menial jobs are done by robots, Britain will come to look more like Clacton, not Edinburgh South, and the white working class will be joined by members of other ethnic groups.

For a glimpse into the future, take a tour of America’s rust belt, where communities like Port Clinton, the subject of Robert Putnam’s book Our Kids, have come to resemble a post-apocalyptic dystopia. The rich are happily married with successful, college-educated children and live in gated communities protected by security, while the poor sprawl out over sink estates, unable to sustain relationships or hold down jobs, prone to alcoholism and substance abuse, passing on their problems to the next generation like poisoned heirlooms.

For Britain to avoid this fate, the metropolitan elite must take some responsibility for the residents of England’s depressed seaside towns, not scorn them. And they’re more likely to do that, to feel the tug of moral obligation towards their fellow countrymen, if they identify as Britons first and Europeans second. Nationalism, for all its shortcomings, creates a shared sense of belonging that’s essential if the haves are ever going to give a helping hand to the have-nots. Let’s embrace the people who’ve been left behind by globalisation by voting Leave on 23 June, not cut them adrift by voting Remain.

Toby Young is associate editor of The Spectator.

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Show comments
  • Dai

    Toby finds an unusual, but interesting angle. What is surely true is that Labour has spectacularly failed its traditional working-class constituency by turning to metropolitan identity politics. How predictable it is that Gordon Brown, who showed his true colours when he labelled an ordinary woman as a ‘bigot’, has stepped forward to shore up the Remain campaign. I shudder to think that I voted for such people in those far off days.

    • gelert

      The Labour Party has been hijacked by the Guardianistas and AlBeeb. They have nothing in common with the LP of years ago.

      • greencoat

        That is very true. And if Gordon Brown recommends staying in the EU, then voting to leave is clearly the right decision.

        • Nockian

          A man that blew up the British economy is recommending that leaving will negatively impact the British economy-I will pass thank you Mr Brown as your track record isn’t exactly trustworthy.

          Brown seems like a proper thug. A bully and a loud mouth.

          • thumper_the_rabbit

            He always was …

          • Michael H Kenyon

            I think you’ll find most people, when hearing about Gordon Brown or John Major’s views shrug their shoulders and think “I thought they were dead”.

          • Nockian

            I watched a bit of Majors Oxford speech. Oh man, patronising, condecending and down right dreary. I wonder if anyone will remember that it was this guy who had his resignation letter ready to go when he got us into the dreadful ERM and nearly killed the British economy.

          • Andrew Cole

            And Legard has forecast today sets of numbers that when you look at them would mean that Brexit would have worse effects than the great global crisis that the world is still trying to recover from.

            She really should have looked at that before she made the numbers up to make it look feasible at least.

        • Little Black Censored

          I think the argument for Remain is very convincing: I want to be richer, better educated, to acquire enlightened middle-class values and to live in a pleasant green suburb. What’s not to like?

          • rhys

            well if you don’t already own your own house or flat ( the situation of most 20 and 30 somethings ) YOU NEVER EVER WILL whilst uncontrolled mass migration continues. Plus if enough houses and flats ever could be built for the many millions more on their way then what’s left of the green belt will disappear entirely………UK like Singapore in terms of built up ness……That’s what’s not to like.

          • Little Black Censored

            I won’t labour the point? (Perhaps I already have.)

          • Marvin

            That’s not the EU, it is Utopia.

          • Andrew Cole

            Just because it didn’t start with “Once upon a time” and end with “And they all lived happily ever after” does not change the facts that it is a fairy tale they are selling you. And yes that is for both sides.

            Brown and Osborne’s version of Hans Christian Anderson is particularly dark but still a fairy tale.

          • JOhn Mackie

            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faust

            This parable is as old as humanity.

    • rhys

      The whole of Parliament on all ‘sides’ has been captured by the NeverWorkedInARealJobEver. Virtue Signallers to a person. Their purported differences are as nothing compared to their love for one another’s and their own ‘Virtue’. Emperor’s New Clothes and all that

  • Frank

    Toby, I suspect that a lot of people keep their thoughts under their hat or are never questioned by the pollsters. Virtually all the older people I now, intend to vote for Leave and they are never interrogated by, let alone would ever talk to, pollsters!
    As for the various groups backing each camp, it is very interesting to see who is backing “Remain”, as they appear to be entirely motivated by self-interest. It is not clear how they will cope with the fall-out which is likely to come their way after Brexit (although Goldman Sachs usually seems able to dodge the bullets for its behaviour).
    Gordon Brown is another category altogether, it takes some nerve to stand up and lecture Britain after his calamitous reign as Chancellor and Prime Minister.

    • Aaron D Highside

      Brexit was 9/4, then McDoom came out for Remain so I am expecting Brexit to move to evens imminently.

      • Fraser Bailey

        Yes, you can always rely on BroonyMcBroonFace to boost support for that which he opposes.

        • Marvin

          Has he had facial surgery? Never saw him grin like gorilla before.

      • Marvin

        Did anyone notice that bogus big grin that he managed to force out for the first time in decades. Takes a long time to shake off that personal reputation.

    • Marvin

      I think all of these intellectual phoneys are terrified of what will happen to the EU and will also effect their snouts in the trough. Not what will happen to Britain who will have the best of ALL worlds.

    • Pip

      The ‘Fall-Out’ heading towards those who have lied to and betrayed the British people will be unprecedented to say the very least and I suspect some of it will settle on some of the more prolific Media propagandists and spin merchants of recent times and they all know who they are.

  • foxoles

    Martin Durkin (director: Brexit – the movie) made this point, that it was a class thing, on yesterday’s Daily Politics – or tried to, until Brillo and all the rest started shouting over him.

    • Conway

      Brexit the movie should be compulsory viewing for everybody before they vote in the referendum. It’s a brilliant film.

  • commenteer

    Toby, you are falling prey to the error of supposing that a university degree means very much at all in these discussions. Fifty per cent of young people now have ‘degrees’; only about five to fifteen per cent of those over the age of fifty. Inevitably, therefore, given that older people are more likely to support Brexit, Brexiteers will show up as ‘less educated’. That statistic has about as much value as a degree in sports studies from a lesser university.
    Anyone with two brain cells to rub together supports leaving, unless they have a particular professional or personal reason not to do so.

    • Marvin

      You do have a very good point, private education is not a guarantee to intellect or knowledge. Speculating on or about the markets is as mysterious and destructive as putting your last penny on a horse, or going for a round of golf. Non golfers will not get that.

      • Rush_is_Right

        “private education is not a guarantee to intellect or knowledge”

        Cameron, Osborne and Blair are certainly proof of that.

        • Marvin

          There’s a feminine man on a radio station, privately educated and the size of a brain to be envy of. But it is full of trivial sewage. So far left, that if he never sees anyone of his own type ever again he wouldn’t notice.

    • JOhn Mackie

      There is of course another point. That degree level education in the last 35 years has increasingly meant a process of indoctrination from primary school onwards. The more these kids have been educated, the less they are able to think for themselves and worse still, the less aware they are of this very fact and problem.

    • Mr B J Mann

      More like under 2% (pre war) through less than 5% (early 60s) to 8% (60s to 70s).

      Did it get as high as 15% by the mid 80s?

      But how many 50 year old’s are retirees, unless they are police, firemen, military, which even then were probably mainly non graduates?!

  • corinium

    Yes it was interesting when that research came out a while back showing those likely to vote Out were older, less educated and poorer and those likely to vote In were younger, more educated and richer, it was framed as this was a good reason to vote In. Basically ‘Look at all the poor stupid old people, don’t listen to them’. A political argument if made by the Right about something else (taxation for example, or the NHS) would elicit howls of condemnation from the usual suspects. Yet it was presented without comment.

  • Nockian

    Hear, hear Toby.

    Until we pry the itellectual elites away from their belief in pragmatic collectivism we are going to find ourselves in some kind of Orwellian nightmare. The same evil ideology has caused the greatest misery on the planet for the majority whilst a tiny few thrived.

    You are exactly right, it’s a class war, the elite snobs (who can forget the comments of Gordon Brown ‘bigoted woman’ or the Twitter comment on ‘white van man’). The working class is considered to be bigoted nationalists having everything in common with the national front and Jack boots, yet it has always been the collectivist snobbish elite which has created the greatest damage in exactly the same way as any powerful tyrant.

  • Polly Radical

    Latest poll: Remain 44%, Leave 46% (ICM, online). Poll of Polls is now Remain 50%, Leave 50%.

  • MikePage

    Good, but is it fair to equate One Nation-ism with Nationalism?

    • Adrian Johnson

      Nationalism is a dirty word in German.
      Nationalism is not a dirty word in English.

  • james edwards

    700,000 eu immigrants came last year.
    I work in financial services but spend time in an inner city school helping mentor children.
    the school has so many children who can’t speak English now it is hurting the other children.
    the school is brilliant though but it is so wrong that other children are being effected.

    • Andrew Cole

      And that other children’s parents are subsidising extra help for helping translation……..or do the parents of non English speaking children pay extra tax for the extra burden?

      I suppose there would be no point charging them extra anyway seeing as it gets returned twofold in tax credits.

  • noix

    I would really appreciate if journalists were aware of the real meaning of the epitaphs they use. ‘Little englanders’ were those against the Empire, the British one. Their current political descendants are for the Empire, the EU one.

  • Rob74

    A snob talks about snobbery.

  • Jingleballix

    Completely correct.

    Britain is so attractive to immigrants because of vibrant socio-economic conditions, medical, educational and social services……..and of course benefits.

    Britain will end up as one massive pot pourri

    Immigrants – from all over breed quicker (more benefits) and also tend to have more medical and educational problems……..the use a very disproportionate amount of the nation’s services.

    Native Britons……..white, black or brown……..are massively disadvantaged by too much immigration too quickly. So, Cameron’s tactic to get the young to tell the oldies ‘not to be selfish’ is another downright lie……..the young will suffer even more (no space for pregnant mothers and no school-places for the kids).

    It is a no-brainer………..vote out…………this is even before one factors in clogged roads, crime, unrest, terrorism and filthy streets (which may lead to disease).

    OUT!

    • Central power

      This was a good one. “Filthy streets and disease due to our EU membership”. Please come up with some more of your excellent arguments. Farrage and Johnson will be eternally grateful.

      • Jingleballix

        Yup.

        Filthy streets due to too much immigration too quickly……..which is in part due to EU membership.

        If you think that the world has seen the last of nasty diseases such as bubonic plague – then you are very foolish.

        London is developing squalid, overcrowded conditions, masses of excessive waste from junk food – which attract more and more rats…….do London authorities have rat extermination under control? I don’t think so.

        Deny the possibility at your peril.

        • Andrew Cole

          The other policy of getting everyone to go to university is also to blame. Students aren’t the tidiest or most considerate of demographics and regularly chuck their rubbish on the roadside because they didn’t put it out on bin day.

          Normally lands in a pile of vomit and broken glass from the night before (or before that or before that.)

          Must be something about people who are more inclined to support the remain argument.

        • Conway

          Let’s not forget antibiotic resistant TB and other once-eradicated diseases that are making a comeback.

      • licjjs

        Have you not been in certain areas recently?

    • Sunset66

      Blimey you are special. 6 idiots agree with you

      • Mr B J Mann

        Are you another PhD who doesn’t get out of the Ivory Tower enough?!

  • Penny Henry

    btw

    Brexit – The Movie – available now: https://vimeo.com/166389884)

    • Sunset66

      Nobody sneers more at the working class than spectator posters

      • Jingleballix

        ………..and libtard Londoners………

      • Penny Henry

        Are you saying that the white working class aren’t smart enough to read The Spectator?

        • Andrew Cole

          I think you will find a lot of white working class read the spectator. Just not many of the red ones.

          I am pretty much as white working class as you can get living in my council house and working NMW.

          • Penny Henry

            Exactly.

        • Sunset66

          No they are smart enough not to read it

    • KilowattTyler

      Yes, Labour often assert that gobalisation brings benefits but fail to explain exactly what those benefits are, and who will benefit from these benefits. Not people on average or below average incomes, I suspect.

      • Penny Henry

        Trickle-down is a failed religion.

        • KilowattTyler

          I think ‘trickle down’ should be renamed ‘p 1 ssing down the stairs’

  • Fraser Bailey

    One irony is that the ‘prosperous, educated elite’ talks endlessly about the benefits of EU ‘trade’ without ever actually doing any trading – they work largely in govt non-jobs or the rapacious education industry (well, higher education is a form of trading, I suppose).

  • Central power

    Toby Young promises some sort of Elysium once we leave EU. We shall have national unity.Poorer will become richer – everybody will be better off. Pity he doesn’t tell us how it will be achieved. Will our economy prosper? Will we throw out all these European immigrants? Will we stop immigration via relatives from the Subcontinent and the Caribbean?
    Well one thing is certain – the economy will be worse. The immigration will be worse – because of the loss of good will from Europe. Our judges will rule that everyone can stay because of the Human Rights Act.
    Germany and France will not throw away 70 years of peace and cooperation and will be prepared to pay the price of the decreased exports to the UK. Frankfurt will become the new City.
    Perhaps the best solution (after the Brexit) will be be to put Farrage, Johnson and Toby Young in charge of some tugs and transfer Britain closer towards our real friends in China and Bangladesh who are so desperate (according to Farrage) “to do business” with us. South China Sea or Bay of Bengal -the choice is yours.

    • Andrew Cole

      You could ask the same question of forecasting the future replacing LEave with remain and come to the same conclusion of ………No-one knows.

      However we do know that we will not be throwing out immigrants. This isn’t about not wanting any immigrants in the UK it is about the UK being able to decide who we accept. Those that are already here are free to stay and even UKIP have said this.

      Then you say one thing for certain everything will be worse if we leave. Lend me your crystal ball and I’ll see if it picks up the remain station and show me the utopia we can expect.

      You need to get your head out of the clouds and realise that both options will change things from the status quo. The EU will change with us in it just as it will with us out so both options are an unknown.

    • KilowattTyler

      There are moves by the EU to restrict the City of London which would have the effect of transferring much of the City’s business to Frankfurt.

      • Adrian Johnson

        As well as drafting an EU standing Army which will stand — where ?
        What a nifty internal policing agency it will make, when it’s not off fighting foreign wars !

        • Mr B J Mann

          Well, Cameron, the supposed Conservative, is slashing our army!

          While Germany’s “defense” budget will be double what it was in 2000 by 2020!!!

          Hmmmmmmmmm, what does that remind you of?!?!?!!!!

    • Mr B J Mann

      “Well one thing is certain – the economy will be worse.”

      You know this for certain how, exactly?!

      Specifically, how do you know that ever closer political union, which requires ever closer fiscal union, and will result in enforced entry to the Euro, makes it certain Remaining will make the economy better?!

      And while you are checking your crystal ball, you might as well answer my next question too!!!

  • James Chilton

    Contempt for the masses is at the root of the Remain “philosophy”.

    • Michael H Kenyon

      They like the masses well enough, provided they are not British.

  • Central power

    Toby Young has forgotten to mention that due our membership of the EU we have by far the highest rate of teenage pregnancies in Europe. Also we did not have so many floods before we joined.

    • WalterSEllis

      And let us not forget that in the old days we had no immigration and no race problems. Enoch Powell just made that stuff up.

      • Mr B J Mann

        No one has forgotten how uncontrolled immigration grows uncontrollably:

        Except the Remainders!

        And they’re the ones who thought Enoch Powell just made that stuff up!!!

    • Mr B J Mann

      Said no Leaver anywhere ever!

      If Remain had an argument they wouldn’t be spending all their time putting up straw men to knock down!!!

      • Central power

        Your main “argument” is that the “Remainers” have no arguments.
        In my post I was using a metaphor to illustrate that Brexit will not solve many of Britain’s inherent problems just to name a few:
        A significant proportion of population consists of white underclass Expanding inbred Pakistani, Bangladesh population. Heavy hand of Whitehall. Huge bureaucracy. Corrupt Judiciary – each failed deportation case seems to cost millions. As to the latter – the EU exit will solve nothing.Humans Rights Act has nothing to do with the EU. Ridiculous CO2 reduction targets (by far the worst in Europe).
        Brexit will be a bad news for both Europe and the UK. Dissolution of the UK is not unlikely.
        The Brexiters economic case is: could, may perhaps.Not a single feasible study of note backed by facts has been produced to date.
        Your other argument is that everybody is telling lies or trying to frighten us.
        The latest quote:
        “If Britain leaves the single market, Britain may be forced out of the open skies regime and air fares and the cost of holidays will rise. That’s not speculation, that’s a certainty.” this one by O’Leary.
        Please let me explain why he would say that? Just for the sake of lying?

        • Mr B J Mann

          Eh?!

  • johnb1945

    This is inevitable in our journey to a global economy. Cultures which find each other abhorrent come into contact with each other, poor people in the developing world are pulled out of poverty yet vestigial protectionism and home-grown corruption prevent them becoming truly prosperous (hence they migrate, illegally if needs be), and big companies prosper from greater freedom of trade, movement and communication by exploiting cheap labour and favourable tax jurisdictions. In the developed world, we have prospered, yet the gap between rich and poor has grown.

    I hate the way urban liberals describe working class Ukippers as stupid or racist. They’re neither, they just don’t have immediate access to the world of opportunity you do, and they’re always the first to live next door to migrant influx….

    I think one answer to this may lie in greater subsidiarity. Why shouldn’t regions have more powers to define their environment and have their problems addressed by those who understand them best? And making mistakes and learning from them also comes with this.

    We have this in Scotland, Wales and NI already.

    And the EU needs to get with this idea too, if it’s going to prosper…….

    • rhys

      Yes : it’s called separate nations being sovereign in their own domains and working well intergovernmentally with their neighbours ( like Canada and the USA / Australia and New Zealand / Mozambique and Tanzania ) . What’s not to like about freedom and Independence ?

      • johnb1945

        That’s what the EU is.

        Did you know that increased QMV and other supranational EU bodies came about because all the nations in the EEC/ EU agreed terms of trade, then countries (particularly France) just ditched them whenever it suited them?

        We pushed for it.

  • Central power

    Would Toby Young please let us know how often he holidayed in Great Yarmouth and Blackpool ?

    • Andrew Cole

      Why would he want to holiday in those sh** holes. This isn’t the 70s ya know.

  • Dr. Heath

    “In fact, I think the growing chasm between the winners and the losers from globalisation is a reason to vote Leave.”

    Nailed it one, Toby. But have you been given permission from The Spectator to write this? Yours is a sentiment that your colleagues, as well as our nation’s milksop politicians, consider blasphemous and the sort of nonsense that only despicable leftards and untutored simpletons amongst the electorate believe.

  • Caoimhín Mac Oibicín

    Well said Toby. The decision to open British labour markets to hundreds of millions of Europeans was Labours Norman Tebbit ‘Get on your bike’ moment to the British working classes.

    • licjjs

      And it had the added bonus of ‘rubbing their noses in it’ to the anti-diverse.

      • Caoimhín Mac Oibicín

        And who would the anti-diverse be? I’m puzzled.

        • licjjs

          Well the ‘Right’ I suppose. Blair’s labour said something about rubbing their noses in it by mass immigration didn’t they?

          • Caoimhín Mac Oibicín

            Oh right you are so, well at least they achieved something in office.

    • enoch arden

      There is a simple and obvious fact: no developed country needs a labour import. Except possibly experts on PhD level. This import is a clear case of corruption: it benefits some employers at the expense of the rest of the country. This is one strong argument for leaving EU.

      • Caoimhín Mac Oibicín

        Particularly rings true in an English speaking country I think. Without a points based immigration system they become magnets for low paid, low skilled migrants which is simply unsustainable in the long term. It also has a huge impact on youth unemployment which in itself causes bigger and wider social issues in the long term.

        • enoch arden

          It is more simple and more universal. If a country has a non-zero level of unemployment, any labour import is irrational arithmetically: for each imported labourer the government will have to feed one unemployed.

      • Conway

        Even Lord Rose of BSE infamy admitted wages would rise if we left the EU – but, being a fat cat, he thought that was a bad thing!

  • enoch arden

    Does anyone know at least one rational (and true) argument for “remain”? I would greatly appreciate. Never heard any.

    • amicus

      I’ll get back to you.

      • enoch arden

        Thanks in advance for your effort.

    • WalterSEllis

      Don’t be daft. There are many good reasons – all of which have been explained at length for the last two months. You’re just not listening.

      • licjjs

        Tell us again then.

      • enoch arden

        Please be kind to the daft and answer, if you can.

        • WalterSEllis

          I refer the honourable gentleman to the statement I made earlier.

          • enoch arden

            Which one? Please repeat what I missed. Was it about my mental condition?

          • Give our God Immortal Praise

            Stop wriggling.

      • Penny Henry

        Irony, right?

      • Lady Magdalene

        There haven’t been any good reasons ….. just a load of hysterical nonsense and scaremongering.

    • licjjs

      I have asked that a number of times now: no one replied.

      • Sunset66

        That’s because you are talking to people of the same opini on

    • British Patriot ✓ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ

      It has been argued that a shortage of cheap EU labour will drive wages up and profits down and make shareholders unhappy. Plus of course many farmers would sorely miss the generous subsidies they receive from the EU – subsidies highly unlikely to be maintained by a future post-Brexit Conservative government.

      But then again who cares about big business or the agricultural lobby?

      • enoch arden

        Let us separate political demagoguery from simple arithmetics. You are saying the following: if Britain stops subsidising the French farmers by contributing to the EU budget, the British farmers will suffer. Ask their opinion about that peculiar logic.

        The argument about chip continental labour is even more amusing. How any economy can benefit from importing unqualified labour while experiencing a significant unemployment rate? For each foreign worker the government will have to feed its own citizen who becomes unemployed that way. Thus, it is beneficial for the employer and very bad for the economy.

        • rhys

          Have you been struck blind you poor boy ? That why you can’t see and marvel at the Emperor’s New Clothes ????????

        • British Patriot ✓ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ

          If Britain is not in the EU, British farmers will not receive subsidies from the EU. How can any sane person possibly dispute that statement?

          • enoch arden

            It is always useful to see all the facts avoiding demagoguery. The subsidies that the British farmers obtain from EU are a small part of what the British government pays to the Continental farmers. If it stops doing that, these money could be used to subsidise the British agriculture.

          • British Patriot ✓ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ

            I’m not convinced that a post-Brexit Conservative government would choose to subsidise small and medium size farmers in the same way that the EU does (at the behest of the French), and I for one would applaud such a move – if farmers can’t survive without subsidies then they shouldn’t be in the farming business. Why should the taxpayer reward inefficiency?

          • enoch arden

            1. I hope you agree that it is idiotic for the British farmers to pay Brussels in order to regulate their relationship with the British government.

            2. Could you please explain how you suggest to measure efficiency in the modern Mickey Mouse economy where most of the players are non-producing parasites, relative or absolute, and the main activity is distribution (besides entertainment)? There are 3 millions employed in the British “financial sector”. In what way are these millions of paper pushers efficient? Would it be wrong to pay them a bit less and, respectively, to pay farmers a bit more?

          • British Patriot ✓ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ

            1. Emphatically yes.

            2. I agree that it would be great if we could pay the financial sector less and farmers more, but I have severe doubts that such a scenario could ever come to pass, given the nature and inclinations of the English establishment.

          • enoch arden

            2. I agree. But the problem of parasitic nature of the modern economy has nothing to do with Brexit. In any case, it is always easier regulate things locally without involving monstrous Brussels bureaucracy.

  • amicus

    This makes a lot of sense.

  • StoryHugh

    Yes there is a national divide between the snobbish urban elite and the white working class. Not all of us outers are old age pensioners who left school at 14.

    When I vote to leave I won’t be voting against globalisation or free trade, but for more of both please.

    Nor, as an outer, am I necessarily against immigration. I’m for self-determination, which includes the right to decide for ourselves if we want people to come here or not.

    Nor do I think that technological advance has ever meant that there will be mass unemployment. It’s just that you need to be more educated to get a job in a high tech society. This is why Toby’s endeavours to improve education are the key to the future.

  • ken Mckenzie

    A pretty weak argument – so if we vote Leave all the metro elites will feel much more British and more likely to give a helping hand to the have nots !!!!???? Also Edinburgh North & Leith is a working class area but as a port it has strong historic ties to Europe (esp France)

    • Sunset66

      Strong historic ties to France . I think the word you migh want to focus on is historic
      That will be of little value should we vote to leave .
      Are you serioulsly suggesting the trade from Leith with France is going to suddenly take off with the UK out of the EU?

      • Andrew Cole

        The ties to France he was talking about I think are the same ties England has to France. Namely it is the favourite destination for exiles and those with a claim to the throne.

        Back in the day that is. Can’t remember the last time. Maybe the episode with the short bloke who ensured that Euros drive on the right?

        I now await the remainers talking about English and Scottish ties to France.

        Maybe the same because of John of Gaunt and his daughter as well.

        Hey why don’t we say we should stay in because the German’s and Greeks are in the palace?

        • Adrian Johnson

          Remember “Death to the French” ? — those were the days !

      • ken Mckenzie

        No – it explains why Leith people are more pro europe – historic – auld alliance – bordeaux imports etc

        • Sunset66

          Yes the last time I was in Leith it was all they would talk about

  • Marvin

    Cameron’s bringing out all the so called intellects of big companies to support their dodgy, bogus doom and gloom reports, no doubt prompted by this fraudulent government and offers of Peerages as vast as their foreign aid waste. They all seem to be convinced that they can see into the future, but are incessantly insisting that no one knows what being outside the EU would be like.

    • Mr B J Mann

      No one knows what being outside the EU would be like even though it would be like 85% of the rest of the world and 99% of the rest of the British Isles history since the baby Jesus was a baby?!

      • Marvin

        But that seems to be their default mantra. ” The outers don’t know what being outside the EU would be like” you are right, we don’t and they don’t not until article 50 is triggered and two years of negotiations have been exhausted. But I do know that if we could really, really switch on the intellect button and sort out the Bill Of Rights, totally stop EU migrants benefits claims, and free NHS treatment, end free NHS treatment for the planet, and add all these savings to the £4.5 billion of our money instead of financing the gravy train, we can’t lose!

        • Mr B J Mann

          I meant we DO KNOW what it would be like outside the EU: it would be like 85% of the rest of the world and 99% of the rest of the British Isles history since the baby Jesus was a baby!

  • davidofkent

    The debate about the state of Britain is not limited to the REMAIN/LEAVE argument. It is possible that the EU makes the awful state of Britain even worse, but it isn’t the main cause. There are a variety of causes for the decline of the nation, IMHO. One is the advance of welfarism which has removed the need for personal responsibility for one’s life and well-being. Another is the political move to the Left, either stemming from the first or causing it. Our democratic system suffers from exactly the same faults that were recognised by the ancient Greeks who more-or-less invented it. That is to say that people who wish to be elected will promise anything. They can do this today because we have universal taxation that nobody can legally refuse and which can be and is used to ‘rob Peter to pay Paul’. There are other causes.

    The EU has made our situation worse because it has dumped a few million of its unemployed onto us, to take away the jobs of the low achievers in society and to undercut their pay. In addition, the sheer number of incomers has raised the cost of housing to renters, buyers and taxpayers (housing benefit in case you can’t guess).

    Most of these problems do not affect the sort of well-educated liberals who demand that we stay in the EU. Vote LEAVE and rub their noses in it!

    • Ipsmick

      Where does this political move to the left come from? The press is predominantly right-wing, and so is the BBC. We have the most right-wing government in living memory, and that seems unlikely to change. When we do leave it will be interesting to see who we find to pick the fruit, wash out cars, fix our plumbing.

      • Andrew Cole

        Which world do you live in where you think this government is the most right wing in history and the Beeb is predominantly right wing?

        This government is only just right of Blair’s left centre if at all and the Beeb is very very left of centre liberal.

        Have you only just been born?

        As for who will pick the fruit, wash the cars and fix our plumbing. The obvious answer is the same people that are doing it now because we aren’t throwing people out that are already here.

        You obviously are incinuating that we would throw them out and the easy answer in that scenario would be that the people that were doing these jobs before their employers discarded them would do the jobs.

        British people did not decided in 2005 “Don’t want to do this job anymore” en masse.

        You must have been on one of those intense lefty brainwash Uni courses.

        • Stan Getback

          Thank you , that was fantastic reply to don’t know how to name him.

      • ItwasBlairwotdunnit

        Here’s a thought. Wash your own car. And teach yourself plumbing.

        • Jackthesmilingblack

          Wash the car, now that really is a waste of time and effort.
          Plus counterproductive, bordering on dangerous. How many times have you come round a corner to find some clown in a immaculately clean car in the middle of the road because he’s avoiding a puddle.
          Jack, the Japan Alps Brit
          Plumbing’s a good idea, though.

      • chasdf

        Cameron is right wing? Blimey that’s a new one to me.

        • Itinerant

          The BBC too apparently, wow- I didn’t realise LGBTXYZ quotas, while making mass immigration, criticism of Islam and the EU mostly taboo subjects was actually right-wing.

          He must mean right-wing in the way Socialists are right-wing to a Communist.

        • Adrian Johnson

          Cameron is a U-turn right-winger– which lands him in the mediocre middle.

      • Trailblazer10

        You are completely deluded. Deceitful Dave and his Vichy tories are infested with marxist indoctrination. Fully intent on destroying any national identity and selling you out to a communist EU.

        Cabbages got picked,plumbing was fixed, etc before the EU got it’s grasping claws into the UK.

      • rhys

        Before we got involved with the EEC there were plenty of people who did all those jobs. In my area of the Midlands schoolchildren even got a week off to help with seasonal potato picking. ( And I still got decent A levels [ in the days when they were difficult exams ] and a place at Oxford. )
        But yet again, if I am wrong about that, there is no law stops an independent and free UK from allowing in temporary workers ( perhaps gap year students from the Commonwealth ? ) . But it would be the UK making its sovereign decision on the issue, not Mrs Merkel.

  • enoch arden

    The irrationality of Europhilia was explained by Bismarck:

    “Anyone discussing Europe is talking nonsense: it is simply a geographical notion”.

    He was a patriot. In contrast to Europhile Hitler.

    • john

      I see history stopped for you 150 years ago.

      • enoch arden

        Do you suggest I missed the 3d Reich? Or any other pan-European development?

        • john

          Seems to be 2 Johns here.
          Goody – a Mickey Mouse WWII reference.

      • Ivan Ewan

        I take it you were in favour of all those totalitarian great leaps forward, then?

    • John

      History is littered with the wreckage of Grand Pan European projects. The EU is just the latest manifestation of this megalomania. Do they ever learn ??

      • enoch arden

        All the major wars in Europe within the last 2000 years resulted from the attempts to build a Euroempire. Let us hope that this one will collapse before it initiated another big war.

        • John

          Let’s hope so. The sooner we are rid of this insane project , the better.

    • Ipsmick

      There’s a certain amount of culture involved, too: ever heard of the Enlightenment?

      • enoch arden

        I presume Bismarck, as the head of a key country for that development, heard of it too. We also know that the Enlightenment was a result of the huge butchery of the pan-European religious war of the 17th century. Which side of that war in your opinion was Europe (in the cultural sense)?

    • Toby

      “Europhile Hitler”?
      Hitler was a pangermanist maniac and loathed any other European population. I hardly call that being an Europhile.

      • enoch arden

        You don’t seem to know the history. In 1941 marshall Petain proclaimed the creation of United Europe based on the union between France and Germany, including Italy, Spain, Romania and other countries of Europe supporting Hitler. After the war, the construction of that United Europe was continued by Robert Schuman who was a minister in Petain’s government. That was the way the EU appeared. Its connection with the ideas of the 3d Reich is historically clear.

      • Adrian Johnson

        Hitler was a Europhile in the same sense that a cannibal loves humanity.

  • ohforheavensake

    So we vote to leave: and this will hurt the economy badly. There really isn’t any doubt about that. And when the economy is damaged, people in the poorest areas get hurt most.

    Toby? You’re an idiot.

    • Prof Raus

      Certainly the lost generation of Southern Europe have suffered dreadfully. Oh hang on, they are not only in the EU but EZ too. Do you get paid to write this tripe?

    • John

      In what way will it “hurt the economy badly”. How did we ever manage for 2 millenia before being “saved” by the EU. You also appear to be assuming that the EU itself is on course for stability – but recent history tells us otherwise , doesn’t it ?

    • Foxall

      Yes, when we leave the EU sterling will go down relative to other currencies – temporarily. Then watch the Euro go into a death dive as punters realise that one of the EU’s most valuable cash cows has escaped Animal Farm.
      Then watch as speculators realise the USA government can’t go on spending more than they get in.
      Suddenly sterling will look like the safest haven for anyone’s money.

    • enoch arden

      Let us see. Italy, Spain, Greece, Finland have been in a deep recession for years. A question: do you regard it as a sign that the EU and, particularly, the Eurozone is good for the economies of the participating countries?

      Depending on your answer, we shall conclude who is an idiot.

    • Jethro Asquith

      There isn’t really any doubt about it because of what – come on man provide your evidence.

    • rhys

      But it won’t hurt the economy, any more than leaving the EMS hurt the economy ( despite every single member of the Establishment across the politcal spectrum averring that leaving the EMS would be a catastrophe ).

  • john

    Brexiters are the latest manifestation of the much loved – “foreign gentlemen” begin at Calais – British meme. Our colonies may be dwindling but we’re still #1 and those stinky Continentals should just recognize that we’re top class chaps.

    • commenteer

      I wonder where you’ve been living all these years? Brexiters simply want to shake off the shackles of the EU and trade with the whole world, especially the developing world. Oh, and control our borders, our legal system, our democratic system and who has access to our benefits. Seems the logical choice for any intelligent person to me.

      • Andrew Cole

        Brexiters just want equal rights. To be given the same chances as those from abroad and not be discriminated against because we aren’t from another country.

        • john

          Ditto

      • john

        I think you’re confirming my position.

        • Jethro Asquith

          If you can conclude that from his post then the suggestion in the article that remainers are the intelligent ones seems misplaced.

    • Tom Cullem

      Yes, those who can’t send their children to the local primary because it’s too crowded with EU migrant children are just bigots worried about stinky Continentals.

      • john

        Chill out Tom, things aren’t that bad.

  • Give our God Immortal Praise

    The same people who were urging us to join the Euro are now urging us to stay in the EU. Why should anyone listen to them?

  • Marathon-Youth

    Elites, Politicians, Bankers: GLOBALISTS who want the UK to be part of the EU
    Average person: NATIONALIST who loves king and country first.

  • lakelander

    A fair-minded and compassionate case for voting Leave.

  • Ipsmick

    You have to vote leave, because that is the earnest desire of Vladimir Putin, Donald Trump and Marine Le Pen.

    • Prof Raus

      Oh dear, the EU propaganda department is really scraping the bottom the barrel. What’s up, all your brightest and best dreaming up new scare stories?

      • Adrian Johnson

        The morning after Brexit, Ebola will break out in London. Late afternoon volcanos will erupt in Birmingham. A tsunami will sink Norfolk permanently below sea-level.
        A Murrain will exterminate the last British dairy herds.

    • Tom Cullem

      Whilst the vote to stay is the robber barons of Goldman Sachs and JPMorgan and the Troika that managed Greece and the Eurozone so beautifully? Not to mention a PM whose career is littered with more lies than Pinocchio in transit from puppet to Real Boy?

      Not much to choose between, in my view!

    • rhys

      If Vlad and Marine now and again sit down and enjoy a nice cup of tea : does that mean the rest of us have to stop doing so ? The arguments and the logic are the issue, not who is proclaiming them . Though no one in the US camp has yet answered the point as to why it is good for the UK to have its immigration policies decided by its close trading partners, whereas that would not be right for the US ??

  • Give our God Immortal Praise

    Cameron is confused and can’t be trusted. He opposes the de*th pen for killers such as Fred West but he backs the killing of hundreds of innocent human lives in state funded ab**tion de*th clinics. Sick in the head. Likewise Cameron says he’s a big supporter of the family, claiming families are the basis of society etc. And then he imposes s*me s*x so-called marriage! Mental. Totally mental. Thus when it comes the EU no way should listen to Cameron. No way.

    * = censored.

    • ItwasBlairwotdunnit

      Love the post. I thought you were serious for a minute, but the joke is on me – you had me fooled for a bit.

      You’ve cleverly managed to get “the persona” of a religious nut-job perfectly. Brilliant!

      • Give our God Immortal Praise

        Sorry, gay boy, but you’re just as confused as your chum Dave because no one’s fooling since everything I say is serious and truthful, unlike the drivel you spout.

        • Matthe

          why didn’t you censor “gay” here? really inconsequent!

          • ItwasBlairwotdunnit

            It’s meant in a loving sense – part of giving God immortal praise.

        • ItwasBlairwotdunnit

          Gay boy? My! You have got the persona right. I’m happily married with three happy well-educated atheist kids, thank you very much.

          Your God clearly isn’t a god of love…

          • Give our God Immortal Praise

            You have kids? Yeah, sure. lol. No way could a toilet boy like you have kids. In any case even if you did and they were atheist then you should be done for child abuse. Nutter.

          • ItwasBlairwotdunnit

            And how are the rest of the congregation at Westboro Baptist Church?

          • Give our God Immortal Praise

            Yawn.

          • Matthe

            I guess you’re one of those left behind like mentioned in the article. try not to get too drunk on june 22nd please, you have to get up early the next day.

          • Give our God Immortal Praise

            What are you even on about?

          • Matthe

            you sound kind of uneducated.

          • Give our God Immortal Praise

            Is that your best insult? Pathetic. How old are you gay boy? 10?

          • Matthe

            this wan’t an insult it was a conclusion. but thank you that’s what I expected.

          • Give our God Immortal Praise

            You’ve had your brain gouged out. Fact.

          • Nick McBain

            so Charitable! There is no God only Buddha. Be at peace

          • Give our God Immortal Praise

            Get real.

          • Nick McBain

            Oh, and who requires all women who have given birth be ‘purified ‘ before being allowed their next communion with the all-merciful “God”. Good grief

          • Give our God Immortal Praise

            Sick in the head.

          • Nick McBain

            And good luck in your comforting, antiquarian delusions. With compassion not condescension

          • Give our God Immortal Praise

            Toilet boy.

          • Nick McBain

            Are you perfectly calm!? Or is your head full of screaming monkeys

          • Give our God Immortal Praise

            Nutter.

          • Nick McBain

            This may help, or maybe not!www.wildmind.org/applied/daily-life/tools-for-learning-acceptance

          • Give our God Immortal Praise

            Deluded.

          • Jethro Asquith

            I see the ‘church of god’ is still teaching love and tolerance.

          • Give our God Immortal Praise

            Stay away from public toilets.

          • rhys

            Not so difficult since they have virtually all been abolished by Thatcher, Major and Blair : Oh yes. Somehow in the 1940s and 50s, when the country was collectively as poor as church mice all towns and villages had ( barely adequate, but still useful ) facilities : since the country got rich somehow they can’t be afforded. Still at least we can now choose the colour of our landline ‘phones.

          • Jethro Asquith

            You really are a bitter and twisted individual. I would suggest the services of a good psychologist. Remember to tell him about your imaginary friend…

          • Give our God Immortal Praise

            So you’re a gay boy too?

          • Give our God Immortal Praise

            Anti-religious bigot.

          • ItwasBlairwotdunnit

            I think there is a suppressed sexual issue going on here.

          • Jackthesmilingblack

            “Give our God Immortal Praise” So which God would that be? Spoilt for choice I venture to suggest.
            They’re really crawling out of the woodwork today.

            But wisdom here for those with the wit to grasp it. Never, ever disclose personal details for the truly obnoxious to twist into an insult.

          • Give our God Immortal Praise

            There’s only one God, you dope, one creator of the universe, one supreme ultimate reality. Are you really so thick?

          • Jackthesmilingblack

            “There’s only one God…” And Mohammed is his messenger… That one?

          • Give our God Immortal Praise

            The creator of the universe, you dope.

          • David

            Would that be Ra?

          • Give our God Immortal Praise

            Any name you like.

          • Jethro Asquith

            The only child abuse is Religious Nutterism indoctrination and brain washing.

          • Give our God Immortal Praise

            Go away, gay boy.

          • Give our God Immortal Praise

            Hate speech.

  • Conway

    Brexiters are less educated (only 15 per cent are graduates, says YouGov, against 37 per cent of Remainers) and older” Dear G0d! Are you an Oxford graduate? Older people are less likely to have a university degree (although they are better educated than today’s school leavers) because until Blair’s idiotic 50% of students going to Yooonee, only relatively few people got a degree. They came out of school at 15 literate and numerate and went into apprenticeships (neither Barnes Wallis nor Frank Whittle, the anniversary of whose achievement we celebrate tomorrow, went to university) or took secretarial qualifications.

  • JabbaPapa

    I am frankly ASTONISHED at the Speccy’s failure to report on the ongoing self-immolation of the French Government.

  • Nick McBain

    Very ‘Little England is in fact Great’. Your account of the US is a result of the Republican ‘trickle-up’ movment. There IS no ‘trickle-down, read Piketty.

    You’re describing a Britain south of the Border which somehow aspires to remain a ‘first-class Nation’ .

    Why become better by cutting off from the EU, when most Little Englanders given the option would have denied this choice to Scotland not long ago? Doesn’t make sense.

    • davidshort10

      Many English people of the type you call Little Englander would have gladly waved off the Scottish. It was the Scottish themselves who decided to stay.

      • AWoLsco

        “It was the Scottish themselves who decided to stay.”

        No. It wasn’t a free and fair referendum for several reasons.

        1) English people living in Scotland were allowed to vote….an utter absurdity.
        Of course Scots naively thought that their numbers weren’t sufficient to matter but that was not the case.If people of English origin had been disbarred from voting, then Scots would have won independence by a country mile.

        2) Scots living outside Scotland were not allowed to vote… a complete nonsense.
        Scots don’t stop being Scottish if they leave Scotland. Many, if not most, would return in large numbers to serve their country and play their part in setting up the institutions of an independent Scotland.

        3) The vote was fiddled through miscounting, with agents planted to flll in ballot papers. Security was a joke. Security is tighter and more efficient picking up a parcel at a post office than it was at this amateur referendum.

        The same thing is going to happen in the Euro referendum.
        The ‘establishment’ are going to get the ‘right ‘ result…… unless the electorate take the correct attitude to modern elections…….
        Assume skulduggery will take place unless thoroughly reassured to the contrary.

        • davidshort10

          I hadn’t heard your argument No. 1 before. If it were true, why was it not reported at the time. How would you have excluded English people? Would it mean checking where they were born to see if they could be enfranchised? Would that have excluded people born outside Scotland but to Scottish parents, and then you’d have had to check the parents were born in Scotland. What about people with one Scottish parent? Because Scotland is not a sovereign nation, these checks were not possible. And are you assuming that all English voters in Scotland would have voted to stay in the union? Someone could just as easily say that all UK voters should have been allowed to vote on whether Scotland left the union or not. I think a lot of English voters would have voted for Scotland to leave. Scotland has changed in my lifetime and I speak as a quarter Scot. There is a lot of anti-English attitude, very different from when I was growing up, and it is probably better if the Scottish were independent. The ordinary people had no say in the union, of course. It was pre-democracy and the Scottish government asked for union. Perhaps there could be a precedent and that the current Scottish government could ask to leave, without a referendum. It would be good for England and Wales. This business will not go away so best to end it before it descends into a Northern Irish type of trouble.

          • AWoLsco

            “How would you have excluded English people?”

            Any dunderhead can tell the difference between English and Scot in a matter of seconds.

            “Would it mean checking where they were born to see if they could be enfranchised?”

            It wouldn’t be for the authorities to check this, but for the potential voter to take the trouble to prove his/ her entitlement to vote, to the authorities.

            ” Would that have excluded people born outside Scotland but to Scottish parents, and then you’d have had to check the parents were born in Scotland.”

            9 times out of 10 …yes. But again, the burden of proof would lie with the applicant to demonstrate that they were sufficiently physically and mentally fit to be called a Scot.

            “What about people with one Scottish parent?”

            No chance.

            “Because Scotland is not a sovereign nation, these checks were not possible.”

            Not at all. They are perfectly possible , especially in this day and age, where one can hardly move without being given a number.

            “And are you assuming that all English voters in Scotland would have voted to stay in the union?”

            Yes. Oh, sure you might get the odd romantic here and there, but for most English people the idea of an independent Scotland is inconceivable for few have any knowledge of Scotland functioning as an independent country.

            “Someone could just as easily say that all UK voters should have been allowed to vote on whether Scotland left the union or not.”

            No. You didn’t get to vote on Indian independence. So why should you vote on Scottish independence? The idea is utterly absurd.
            By suggesting this , you are implying that we are English subjects.

            “I think a lot of English voters would have voted for Scotland to leave.”

            Let them vote all they want. If they want us to leave…that’s great for us. If they want us to stay, then that’s oppression of one state by another….which isn’t going to last long….and when you think about it, is a bit pointless. Take it from me, you don’t want a bunch of sour , foul -minded Scots, bent on disruption, as allies.

            “There is a lot of anti-English attitude, very different from when I was growing up”

            Of course. You’ve lost two wars, lost the empire bankrupted the country and sold off all its industry. After all that, you expect us to love you?

            “It was pre-democracy and the Scottish government asked for union.”

            Untrue. You came and asked us. We didn’t send any delegation down south asking you.

            “Scottish government could ask to leave, without a referendum.”

            ……Or just walk off, without saying anything, other than…..” Don’t ring us. We’ll ring you.” It could happen. The man with nothing to lose can be surprisingly bold, and with the passing of the decades Scotland has little to lose.

            “This business will not go away”

            That’s true. Scotland has been in this situation before…with France and then Sweden. There was a period of sourness, then Scotland left….and the fortunes of both nations plummetted.
            It is going to be the same with England

          • Mike Christie

            Any dunderhead can tell the difference between English and Scot in a matter of seconds.

            Please do enlighten us. I’m assuming you aren’t a “dunderhead” yourself 😉

          • AWoLsco

            “I’m assuming you aren’t a “dunderhead” yourself ;)”

            Sir, is most kind 😉
            repeat after me…
            1) It’s a braw, bricht, moonlicht nicht, the nicht.
            2)Loch Lomond….No, Not Lock Lomond….LOCH Lomond.

            Now before you scoff, let me tell you a little trick employed by the Dutch resistance to check that someone wasn’t a German agent.
            They would get them to say… Scheveningen(the town) either by asking outright, or working it into the conversation.
            A Dutchman can instantly spot a fake.

            Seriously….how long do you think an English person can fake being Scots?
            If your best actors and actresses make an utter fool of themselves,trying to act Scots, then what hope for the average English person?…..None at all, is the answer.

          • Mike Christie

            Your proposal poses certain difficulties as regards practicality…. couldn’t we just declare that real Scots are those with at least three Scottish grandparents?

          • AWoLsco

            “that real Scots are those with at least three Scottish grandparents?”

            No. Scots are not like jews. They assimilate and blend into the country of their adoption too readily for genetics and heredity to have any meaning.
            I wish I could say vice versa, for those that take up residence in Scotland….but all the evidence is against that happening.
            The Scottish culture is weak, at the moment, for it is not supported by the unrelentingly Anglophile and Anglo-centric mass media in Scotland, which is openly anti- Scottish and flagrantly disrespectful to the unique culture of this oldest nation of all Europe.

          • Mr B J Mann

            So are you saying somebody born in Scotland with an English grandparent isn’t a Scot?

            Or is someone born in Scotland with 4 English grandparents still a Scot?

            What if they have an English accent?!

            By the way, I pronounce it Lo’hlomon:

            Do I get a vote?!

          • AWoLsco

            “So are you saying somebody born in Scotland with an English grandparent isn’t a Scot?”

            No.

            “Or is someone born in Scotland with 4 English grandparents still a Scot?”

            Could be…but subject to the outcome of some tests and the furnishing of written testimonials counter-signed by an officer of the law or local militia commander.

            “What if they have an English accent?!”

            Not eligible to vote.

            “By the way, I pronounce it Lo’hlomon:
            Do I get a vote?!”

            No.

          • Mr B J Mann

            Oh, so it’s birth and/or ancestry and/or accent and/or the outcome of some tests and the furnishing of written testimonials counter-signed by an officer of the law or local militia commander…….

            And that’s just the ones born and living in Scotland!

            So much for “Any dunderhead can tell the difference between English and Scot in a matter of seconds.”

            And you haven’t started on all your “Scots living outside Scotland were not allowed to vote… a complete nonsense. Scots don’t stop being Scottish if they leave Scotland.”!

            How does your pronunciation test work with Scots brought up in London, say?

            If “Scots don’t stop being Scottish if they leave Scotland” but they lose their accent?!

          • AWoLsco

            “So much for “Any dunderhead can tell the difference between English and Scot in a matter of seconds.”

            No that still stands. You keep coming up with improbable scenarios but even those cases can be very quickly resolved.

            “How does your pronunciation test work with Scots brought up in London, say?”

            They couldn’t be Scots…or only could be so after having lived in Scotland and become Scots in outlook, manner and speech…….. much the same as in most European countries…the same sort of process my sister undertook to gain German citizenship. Of course whatever the bureaucracy says, she will never be seen as a true German.

            “but they lose their accent?!”

            No, they don’t. I never lost mine…and had it ever been a requirement to do so, I would have quit the country instantly.

          • Mr B J Mann

            So much for “Scots don’t stop being Scottish if they leave Scotland” !

            Most kids lose their accents very quickly, maybe even in a matter of weeks.

            And it’s natural for (normal) adults to adapt the way the speak to the people they are speaking to.

            And what are these improbable scenarios I supposedly keep coming up with?

            Scottish people born in Scotland moving to England?

            There’s only 750,000 of those!

            Children or Grandchildren of those Scottish people who married each other moving to Scotland?

            Or some of the 400,000 people you label as English living in Scotland having 1, 2, or 3 Scottish parents?!?!?!?!!

            I think you’re trolling!

          • AWoLsco

            “I think you’re trolling!”

            I think you’re sounding rather desperate when it is demonstrated how easy it is to demolish your marxist masonic methods of classifying people and determining their rightful nationality.

            Everybody can tell the difference and sort out who’s who, except you and your shower of evil-minded subverters and over-sensitive (feigned), shrill, bleeding-hearts and mischief-makers.

          • Mr B J Mann

            “I think you’re trolling!”

            I think you’re….. marxist/ masonic…… shower of evil-minded subverters and over-sensitive (feigned), shrill, bleeding-hearts and mischief-makers.

            Wacko nutjob alert!

          • AWoLsco

            “Wacko nutjob alert!”

            Ah , the distinctive distress call of the lesser huggy-fluffy pinko.

          • Mr B J Mann

            Lesser huggy-fluffy pinko?!

            Werent you calling me a Narsti Fascist the other day?!?!

            Or was that the other Wacko nutjob?!?!?!!!!

          • AWoLsco

            “Werent(sic) you calling me a Narsti Fascist the other day?!?!”

            Certainly not me.

            In those twisted times in which we live, I can think of fewer higher accolades than to be called….”A Narsti Fascist.”

            Certainly not a title I would confer on a swivel-eyed, demented, knuckle -dragging, uninhibited pinko…… like yourself.

            “Or was that the other Wacko nutjob?”

            Ah, you mean someone else has seen commonsense?
            That’s nice to know.

          • Mr B J Mann

            Do make up your mind.

            They called me a Narsti Fascist!

            Oh, you can’t:

            You lack the necessary pre-requisite!!!

          • Mr B J Mann

            So what about all your “Scots living outside Scotland were not allowed to vote… a complete nonsense. Scots don’t stop being Scottish if they leave Scotland.”?

            How does your pronunciation test work with Scots brought up in London, say?

            If “Scots don’t stop being Scottish if they leave Scotland” but they lose their accent?!

          • Mike Christie

            I know someone who could pass your pronunciation tests with ease, and has a Govan accent you could cut with a knife. He also happens to be a third-generation Pakistani immigrant….

          • AWoLsco

            “He also happens to be a third-generation Pakistani immigrant….”

            But will only be a third-class Scottish citizen…..not entitled to vote having been disbarred from the Scottish armed forces on the grounds of colour and religion….and will be in possession of a promissary note, entitling him to free removal costs from Scotland at any time and to any country of his choosing( within reason).

          • Muireach MacGilleChaluim

            I presume there will be some kind of official swatch showing exactly which shade of human are just too dusky to be permitted to vote or serve in the Nationalist Army?

          • AWoLsco

            “which shade of human are just too dusky to be permitted to vote…or Serve in the SCOTTISH army.”

            Yes….. is the simple answer….though I have to be careful unless I get excluded myself.
            I remember one uncharacteristically-sunny, training fortnight when the commanding officer commented……
            “Heavens above, AWoL, if your freckles get any bigger, they’re going to join up and you’ll look like a f—–g Paki.”
            The shame and humiliation !

          • Muireach MacGilleChaluim

            And we need to be sure to bar all the descendants of Irish immigrants as well. Breed like rabbits, those Papists, or so I’m told.

          • AWoLsco

            “And we need to be sure to bar all the descendants of Irish immigrants as well.”

            You speak for yourself and don’t project your prejudices on to me or make out what you think mine are.

            I have nothing against Irish immigrants or their descendants, for most have switched loyalty to Scotland, hence the collapse of the labour vote in Scotland…..something which I didn’t think would happen in my lifetime.

            “Breed like rabbits, those Papists, or so I’m told.”

            Excellent news.
            Glad to see some in Northern Europe are willing to undertake this onerous task, that involves so much self-sacrifice in this selfish, satanic,hedonistic era, which we are unfortunate to have thrust upon us.
            For a while I was beginning to wonder where recruits were going to come from, to fill the ranks of Scotland’s army and man her ships o’ war.
            Now, I know.

          • Muireach MacGilleChaluim

            Oh, I know very well what your prejudices are 😉

          • AWoLsco

            ” know very well what YOUR prejudices are ;)”

            OOOOOOOH.!!……Hearken to this one. Ever so bold, inne, Jules?

          • Mike Christie

            Who will be the second-class Scottish citizens?!?

          • Muireach MacGilleChaluim

            Scots residents of English origin, of course. They’re all MI6 sleeper agents anyway.

          • Mike Christie

            I would have thought the Chosen People.

          • Muireach MacGilleChaluim

            They wouldn’t even be citizens in AWoLsco’s nationalist/socialist utopia.

          • AWoLsco

            “Who will be the second-class Scottish citizens?!?”

            ‘Twill be akin to rail travel of yester-year…….
            First class…..and third class.
            We don’t do second class where I come from.

          • Jackthesmilingblack

            No sense of humour?

        • davidblameron

          once you leave your country, your consideration for it ceases to matter to anybody else but you besides, what about non-Scots in Scotland who are part Scots by ancestry? And how about the upcoming referendum, Maltese, Southern Irish and Cypriots living in Britain will get a vote in it, is that nonsense? Of course it is.

          • AWoLsco

            “what about non-Scots in Scotland who are part Scots by ancestry?”

            Give me some examples of this unusual and rather rare sub-species.

            “Maltese, Southern Irish and Cypriots living in Britain will get a vote in it, is that nonsense?”

            Utterly stark, staring bonkers.

          • upinthehills

            All the Anglo Saxons in the lowlands

          • AWoLsco

            “Anglo Saxons in the lowlands”

            What schoolboy history is this?
            Scots, from all parts of Scotland, have been mixing for over 300 years, and even beyond that.

        • Vieuxceps2

          I have grown ever more contemptuous of Scots who never,ever accept any blame for their own actions.A referendum was held and the result was declared. Not to your liking Jock? Ah, no doubt it was the fault of the English in Scotland. How can you possibly know how such people voted? Growup and go your own way you miserable whinging victims.

          • AWoLsco

            “A referendum was held and the result was declared. Not to your liking Jock?”

            Now don’t be rude, dolly mixture/ jew boy.

            No, the result was not to my liking, but I didn’t go around setting the place on fire but quietly returned to my noisome lair, nursing my wrath at the naivety of my fellow Scots for having been duped into a phony, illegal and meaningless referendum.

            “Ah, no doubt it was the fault of the English in Scotland.”

            Most definitely….along with corrupt practices in the referendum itself.

            “Growup and go your own way you miserable whinging victims.”

            Gosh very sensitive and rude isn’t he? Doesn’t even sound very English to me….but more like something foreign that got washed up on the beach by accident.

          • Bendys
          • AWoLsco

            “The stakes are high…”

            ….and the wall too….but not as tasteful as Hadrian’s effort.
            I was thinking of up-grading the patio with the renovation of a retaining wall.
            Somehow or other, I don’t think I will be requiring the services of that foreign outfit and its rather crude, tasteless product.

          • Vieuxceps2

            Dolly mixture? Jew Boy? Bizarre.
            Fault of the English- Had the people of England voted, you’d have been out like a rat up a rope. Now it’s a weary while, like sh*t off a shovel. You bottled it,didn’t you?

        • uberwest

          ‘If people of English origin had been disbarred from voting, then Scots would have won independence by a country mile.’

          That is a just another anti-English smear, and a lie. There were 400,000 English and Welsh voters and the pro independence vote count was short by around the same number. So you are assuming that none of the 400,000 English and Welsh voted for independence, with no reason for making that assumption.

          “Those born in other parts of the UK were much more likely to vote ‘No’, by 70% to 30%. There was a smaller ‘No’ majority for those born outside the UK, and those born in Scotland were evenly split.”

          http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-34283948

          If the English / Welsh vote had been disallowed the result would have been 50/50, not the overwhelming victory for the Scotch Narcissist Party that you complacently assume.

          • AWoLsco

            “English /Welsh vote”

            Listen to this drivel. Last time I heard a Welsh voice in Scotland was about 50 yrs ago. No, The invasion of Scotland is English and actively sponsored by the government and Scottish freemasonry, which is not Scottish but cosmopolitan in outlook….and satanic in nature.
            This is the same fiddle worked by the Canadian govt in Quebec, ….bus in loads of immigrants and bureaucrats whose jobs depend on the status quo. ie preservation of the union and they’ve finally got Scotland where they want it…….dead as the dodo.

            Unless the rules of voting are changed, then with every year that passes, the chance of Scotland getting independence, other than by means of civil disobedience…or worse…..will recede……
            ….due to progressive Anglification, with the best of Scotland being replaced by an army of English dead beats, third raters and empty-headed calibans.

        • Adrian Johnson

          AWoLsco — you are the first person to articulate my fears of pro-EU ballot fraud. could you please start & publicise a petition asking parliament for strict poll-watching ? ( I am an elderly luddite and don’t know how)

  • toonpaddymal

    Great article full of geniune humanity and in striking contrast to the brittleness of Matthew Parris.

    • JimHHalpert

      Parris is disinterested in the future of Britain (or, indeed, of humanity) for the obvious reason. The rest follows pretty naturally.

      • Lady Magdalene

        Parris is an arrogant snob ….. that’s why.

  • KilowattTyler

    1/ The ‘well-educated’ as they would no doubt modestly describe themselves are perhaps in favour of the EU because it is a bulwark against (effective) democracy. If there was genuine, direct democracy would we really have nice well paid jobs in ‘diversity’ and things like that? Would those very lucrative jobs in state-supported organisations like the BBC survive for very long? In fact would we need so many ‘leaders’ in the public sector and those parts of the private and ‘charitable’ sectors which depend on money from taxation? If taxpayers had more direct control over the uses to which their funds are put what exactly would happen to the career prospects and incomes of the ‘well-educated’?

    2/ Despite mass immigration the upper layers of society are as white as the driven snow. Incomes for the managerial and professional classes have risen well above inflation, whereas for most people incomes have been stagnant. Those on salaries north of £100k know full well that their jobs are not threatened by immigration to any significant extent.

    Stop uncontrolled mass immigration. Have unlimited immigration for all jobs with a salary of say 3 X the national average wage (with certain, obvious, well-specified exceptions, e.g. the military). Encourage anyone, anywhere in the world with adequate qualifications to apply for any professional job. If the geographical origin of successful candidates is markedly different from that of applicants in any organisation compel that organisation to explain why.

    3/ If possession of a university education was a prerequisite for intellect and virtue Shakespeare would be an illiterate dolt, as would, for example, Winston Churchill. Some of the greatest works of literature were created many years before such a thing as a degree in literature existed, therefore a university education is not a prerequisite for the creation of great works of art.

    The use of degrees as a mark of employability and general worthiness is more to do with a combination of (i) the desire to identify other members of the same ‘tribe’, those like oneself in mannerisms, accent and attitude; and (ii) the financial imperative of the part of organisations to dump as much as possible of the cost of training on others. If just a few weeks of training are avoided by requiring candidates to spend 3 years and many thousands of pounds on a fairly useless degree that is all to the good as far as the employer is concerned.

  • Give our God Immortal Praise

    Mental.

  • davidshort10

    What a horrible, honking, overprivileged snob Parris is. He of all people should appreciate the value of tolerance. Not many decades ago he would have been reviled in this magazine.

    • Sean L

      I thought he was reviled by this magazine – at least its readers, the ones who leave comments by his column anyway…

    • Trailblazer10

      He is reviled by all sane people.

    • KilowattTyler

      Not long ago, in the Speccie, he stated that we would eventually have to get rid of ‘useless’ people, because international competition would force us to do this.
      I am not sure if mass extermination of the ‘useless’ is one of the potential benefits of globalisation.

    • rhys

      He is truly vile. He used to be good at pricking the balloons of the pompous, self~interested, Establishment admirers of the Emperor’s new clothes : then he joined them. He is so embarrassed that 35 years ago he wrote that vile letter to the woman seeking Mrs Thatcher’s help in getting a council house transfer. No one was watching when he wrote that letter – and it’s when no one is watching that a person’s true personality is disclosed.

  • Jackthesmilingblack

    TEST
    Ask yourselves, “Do I identify with those that advocate ‘Remain’?”
    No? Well there’s your answer, then.

  • Jojje 3000

    “But as mass immigration continues and more and more menial jobs are done by robots”, is that really scary ? Note that immigration works both ways, Brits moving to Spain for instance.

    • davidblameron

      They only got rid of milkmen because they couldn’t program a robot to tell the difference between a gold and silver top pinta.

    • katie65

      The brits in Spain have retired there, for the warmer weather, nothing else, they retired there because they could afford to. There is very little work in Spain

    • Mr B J Mann

      There’s a BIG difference between retiring to Spain, paying for a house to be built, employing a gardner, and pumping your pension into the local economy.

      And coming to the UK, undercutting the local workforce, yet expecting them to house you, top up your wages, and send money to your wife for your kids!

  • davidblameron

    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Thursday 23rd June : Your local polling station : Vote L E A V E<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

  • fartytowels

    Rather than any actual analysis it’s correct that in/out is more about intellectual posturing than genuine discourse. The educated rich simply think it’s the intelligent thing to remain because they see intelligence as synonymous with liberal values, especially when the effects will not directly affect them. They are aloof from the repercussions and free to pretend liberal values out of white guilt and a need for ego validation that they are in fact balanced, conscientious, ethical and clever. Dig into their arguments and it results in ad hominem and scoffing empty put downs, but no actual analysis of fact or impact. They are simply scared to appear low-brow right wing when EU scepticism is – what was called – conservatism. It’s a scary thought that we’re all lying simply to appear more intelligent and balanced. But we are so gripped in false intellectualism we are willing to disinherit our own country – given to us in trust as custodians to the future – simply so we can feel we are the smug elite in a phoney holier-than-thou contest. The emperor has no clothes, though only the “simple” admit it.

    • Rob Roy

      Very well said farty which chimes with my point that many ‘intellectual’ opinions are the result of ‘conditioning’ not necessarily reasoning

      • Kennie

        Farty’s post helps restore some faith in British people. I hear some of the remain side telling downright lies and nobody pulls them up for it. Dodgy Dave comes out with the most outlandish nonesense (war in Europe) and Osborne (bordering on the most incompetent Chancellor ever) just makes up numbers and people believe him.
        I sometimes begin to think that the British people deserve everything coming their way from the eu/IMF/middle east etc. But every now & then there is a post like that of Fartytowels which gives a little hope.

        • Vieuxceps2

          A clear comment following on from Mr. Farty’s sage words. However,your “little” hope is just that,little. There are few who see so clearly and even fewer who speak out so. Most who read the words of me ,of you and of Mr. Farty wil have no concept of the truth he tells,but will go on in their brainwashed, conditioned ,allocated-opinio.n way,unaware of reality

    • BorderReiver100

      I cant agree with you more. I have talked to several different people over the past couple of months and the educated ones, hospital consultant, retired pharmacist, retired engineer to name a few all want out and produce cogent arguments to support their views. Working farmers, as opposed to land owners, al want to be out despite want the NFU says – farmers have seen at first hand how the Common Agriculture Policy works or rather doesn’t work as it favours big landowners and oh yes the French. Pseudo-intellectuals all want to stay in, because they think it is the thing a sophisticated educated intellectual will do and yes they want to be thought of as high brow. Their only argument being it would be horrible to leave Europe – they haven’t even learn’t to distinguish between Europe and the EU. My hairdresser, bless her thinks she won’t be able to have holidays abroad if we leave, uneducated but she is voting in. My elderly neighbour thinks the EU will stop a third world war which could be nuclear, she is voting in because she is scared to do otherwise.

  • John

    I’m begging Gordon Brown to take a high-profile role in the Remain campaign. Also Blair and Mandelson (plus a few others I could think of given the time and inclination).

    • Mary Ann

      With Boris falling to pieces it probably wouldn’t make much difference. Still at least people are getting to see that Boris would not be suitable for PM

  • Central power

    “Together with Nato the European Union has helped to deliver a period of peace and prosperity for its people as long as any days since the days of the Antonine emperors”
    Boris Johnson: The Churchill Factor (page 308, published 2014).
    Gove (who has left us with a fragmented and incoherent education system), Farrage (the one who voted against support measures for European steel industry),Johnson (the man of “principle” and “integrity”).
    You could not make it up.

  • GentlemanJim666

    What utter rubbish! We are supposed to sacrifice our economic propserity and prospects in order somehow to feel warm and cuddly towards our idiotic fellow citizens who voted us out if the EU.
    NEVER!
    More likely, a Leave vote will intensify emnity between the classes during the following years when Britain’s economy will decline and the constant exit negotiations destroy market confidence and our property market.
    In short, thinking people of this country will have been trashed by track-suit and trainer wearing morons.

    • Gary Johnson

      You do get a better class of troll on this site.

    • Trailblazer10

      You forgot the plague of locusts.

    • Jethro Asquith

      And your evidence for any of this tripe actually occurring is what? Perhaps I should say if we leave the EU we will all be millionaires. There is no less evidence for that being the true position – i.e. there is none for either.

    • Jack Rocks

      Yes, clearly Britain’s economy suffered from us not joining the Euro, where all of these ridiculous arguments were last wheeled out.

  • Matthew Greenwood

    Just a note, I’m from Clacton and both my parents will be voting in! People vote UKIP in Clacton because of the candidate, just like they voted Conservative when he was running.

    • Trailblazer10

      Why are you voting in? I am genuinely interested as to why anybody wants to be ruled by a politburo they don’t know and over whom they have no control.

      • Mary Ann

        Because it isn’t a politburo, Why don’t you read up on the Politburo and read up on the EU government.

        Here’s a link for the EU
        http://europa.eu/about-eu/institutions-bodies/european-parliament/index_en.htm

      • Matthew Greenwood

        Saying we have no control over the European Union is utter rubbish. Just like in the General election we elect members of the European Parliament but instead of electing people who will genuinely make the UK’s voice heard the UK decide to vote in people like Nigel Farage who rather than being a constructive voice in the European Parliament screams about how it all must end. Farage consistently complains about how Europeans fish in British waters, yet he is on the committee to resolve the matter and did not turn up for the entirety of 2012 and 2013.

        • John

          It is not the European Parliament that makes the decisions – it’s the European Commission and the above poster is right – we do not elect them and therefore can’t control them.

          • Matthew Greenwood

            You know it takes 1 wikipedia search to find out that the European Commission is made up of a majority within the European Parliament. Jean Claude Junker was elected in 2014 when the European People’s Party formed a coalition with the Progressive Alliance of Socialists and Democrats and the Alliance of Liberals and Democrats. When you vote for a political party in the European Election you are voting for the group in which they will seat Mps with. For example if you vote Liberal Democrats and they win their MP will join the Alliance of Liberals and Democrats.

            We elect the European Parliament who then goes on to form the European Commission. Telling yourself otherwise is wrong. It’s just like forming a government after a general election.

          • John

            …..”It’s just like forming a government after a general election”.
            With one key difference. WE can vote out a government as well as vote them in. We can do no such thing in the European Parliament (and therefore European Commission) because we are outnumbered by 27 other countries all with their own agendas and invariably without any interest in what is good for Britain – and frequently actively hostile to Britains interests. The are not our “friends” – however much deluded Europhiles might want to convince themselves to the contrary.

        • John

          Nigel Farage’s voting record does not make the Fisheries policy right. And even if he had turned up – the odds are that any British proposal would have been outnumbered and voted down. (Which is probably why he didn’t turn up ; he knows what an undemocratic stitch-up this whole project is )

  • morecakeplease

    Cameron has just said in a statement that an asteroid, currently minding its own business in the Kuiper Belt will, in the event of a Brexit, turn and head straight for Thanet.

    • LG

      We can only hope.

  • Gary Johnson

    A very similar but for me slightly more pertinent article on this subject in The Telegraph.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/2016/05/14/the-eu-referendum-is-a-class-war/

  • Bendys

    This is an interesting supporter of the Remain campaign:

    https://www.rt.com/uk/342904-eu-remain-donor-israel/

  • DollarPound

    I am a prosperous, educated member of the elite but I am anti-immigration.
    I live in an area of economic stagnation but also in a city centre.
    I am socially conservative but a believer in free trade.
    I am proud of my country but internationalist in outlook.
    People don’t fit into neat little boxes. Nobody does.

    • Ronnie

      I am a naturalised British national who arrived in UK as a student from from an Asian country whose Nationals have pretty decent integration record and socio-economic attainment in USA / UK. Working in Pharmaceutical research, I am a part of educated middle class. And I am anti-immigration. I think there should be purely demand driven, high skilled immigration.

      • British Patriot ✓ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ

        I think there should be zero immigration, except for people from Canada, Australia, and New Zealand, and we should have a stringent work visa system instead.

        • Ronnie

          As a native Briton you must have the right to decide who is allowed to enter and live in UK. But you do you plan to repatriate those unintegrated fifth columnists who already have British citizenship and have very high fertility rate?

          • British Patriot ✓ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ

            Either repatriation or sterilisation.

        • Jackthesmilingblack

          That does so smack of illogical nationalism. Wall-to-wall Brit …
          And they call me a racist. Border Force that is. “You’re a racist.”
          Sure Adolf, whatever you say.

          • British Patriot ✓ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ

            What’s “illogical” about it? If we’d instituted a system along those lines 60 years ago we’d be living in a far better Britain today.

      • Jackthesmilingblack

        Pull the ladder up Jack, …

        • uberwest

          Just because he got in it doesn’t mean that he is obliged to hold the door open for the third world.

    • Jackthesmilingblack

      That’s what makes voting in a General Election such a compromise.

      • Mary Ann

        Mind you, most of live in non marginal seats, so how much does it matter with FPTP. I lived in a marginal for a short while, it was certainly more fun voting.

        • Jackthesmilingblack

          I’ve been defacto excluded from UK elections for the last 25 years, and before that from 1973 to 1993. You lose the habit eventually.
          You are obliged to file your tax returns by Internet, so why not voting?

  • Trailblazer10

    “But as mass immigration continues and more and more menial jobs are done by robots, Britain will come to look more like Clacton”

    More like Mogadishu.

  • Lady Magdalene

    I’m sick to death of the claim that Brexiteers, because they tend to be older and don’t have a piece of paper giving them a degree, are less well educated.

    Between the end of WW2 and 1980, only around 10% of pupils went to university. The rest learnt a trade; got technical or vocational qualifications and got a job. They learnt in the university of life. And their basic education was good.

    From 1997 onwards state education was systematically dumbed-down and more pupils went to “university” …. often a 3rd-rate institution that used to be a Polytechnic. They came out with an ‘ology or a degree in Media or Golf Studies and found they couldn’t get a job.

    They are not all better educated: they just have a piece of paper that says they spent 3 years living the student life and accumulating debt. Their basic skills are often poor which is why the “universities” have to provide basic remedial tuition.

    Pieces of paper do not necessarily equal better educated.

  • Francis Grose

    The Prime Minister David Cameron is worried he’s going to lose his Davos meal ticket on June 23rd.

    The trend isn’t his friend, as the polls show

    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/63/UK_EU_referendum_polling.svg

  • Rob Roy

    I’m sorry to be rude about graduates but in my experience it only means they have been educated longer, but not necessarily better, than those of us in older generations. I know of, and I’m sure many others know someone similar, of a young girl who graduated five years ago in ‘Business Studies’ and still works as a barmaid in the same pub she worked for during her university years. She only did her degree because all the other girls from her class were doing one. In my career I have met many graduates who can talk a good job but not do one. The point I’m making is that they are not necessarily as bright as those who hold the distinction would have us believe. A second point to make is that our system of ‘Education’ is largely a ‘conditioning’ process as well as a ‘training’ process, those who are successful at such endeavors may not be as ‘free-thinking’ as they would believe themselves to be. I’ve met many, many, working-class men and women who would leave most young graduates standing with slack-jawed ignorance in any political argument they chose to engage in!

    • Dave H

      Totally agree,people with degrees are not always better educated than those without. I think though that many are more indoctrinated and less capable of critical thinking than many non-graduates. It seems to me that many of them learned to recycle the views of their lecturers rather than to think for themselves, as you said conditioning rather than real education.

      • Rob Roy

        Yes Dave. See fartytowels comment below who says it far more eloquently than me. It seems we need saving from the educated classes!

        • Dave H

          Yes read it great post.

      • PaD

        Well said…indoctrination the key word.

    • jamesAD

      Well said

  • whs1954

    “If we don’t cut loose from the EU, nearly everywhere will end up as desperate as Clacton-on-Sea”

    If it’s not OK for Matthew Parris to sneer at Clacton, why is it OK for you to?

    • grimm

      Read the article properly you dope. He is not sneering at them he is describing the tragedy of their situation and saying that more of us could suffer the same fate.

  • Jackthesmilingblack

    test
    Once Brits grasp that voting EXIT will allow Britain to better control its borders, then anticipate a swing to “We Want OUT”. And while you’re at it, realise that Border Force are not fit for purpose.
    By the way, any chance of me getting to vote from Japan? Or have I been excluded from that too?
    “So those feelings of paranoia that you are experiencing … tell me about them. When did they begin?”
    Works best in German-Austrian dialect.
    Jack, the Japan Alps Brit

  • Rob74

    Toby you are a snob.

    Why does it matter what percentage went to university?

    • uberwest

      He’s relying on us to create a false association of education level and intelligence. The reason Brexiteers are less likely to hold a degree is because they are older. Twenty or so years ago, only around 10% of the population went to university, not because they were less intelligent, but because the number of institutions offering degrees was much smaller.

      • Mary Ann
        • uberwest

          Proof that academics can simultaneously masturbate and pat themselves on the back.

      • milford

        The education system then had a much higher standard,.. You did actually have to be brainy or royal to get into a university. Not so now. Anyone and everyone can and does go, rendering it worthless anyway. Hence shelf-stacking graduates all over the UK who can’t even get an interview never mind a good job.

    • Mary Ann

      Remain is more popular among the well educated.

      • PaD

        When you factor in who has been doing the educating…lets say it wasnt Roger Scruton but his cultural marxist sworn enemies within academia

      • Terry Mushroom

        It depends what you mean by well educated.

        Cleverness at passing exams is not the same as wisdom.

      • Jack Rocks

        That’s not true at all. The fact is that “coming out” as being on the right in academia is not good for your career.

        • Bigbluesky

          Makes sense as most of academia is fed off the public teat.

    • Starryeyed girl

      Students and members of academia tend to be more liberal, he’s not saying people who don’t go to university are worth any less.

  • ROUCynic

    Brilliant – Toby says leave so the correct answer is obviously remain! Cheers Toby!

  • Symptoms of a failing campaign:
    1. Comparing your opponents to Hitler
    2. Claiming the media is biased
    3. Vilification of anyone with a counter view
    4. Accusing anyone you disagree with of being in the pay or your opponent
    5. Shouting down anyone who expresses a view you don’t like
    6. Hinting that the vote will be fiddled

    • Mary Ann

      And there is going to be all those postal votes from Europe and Glastonbury, probably both will favour remain, the European ones because anyone living in Europe and who votes for brexit has to have a screw lose, or simply hasn’t thought it through, and Glastonbury is nearly all young people and we all know the young want to stay. Waiting for Farage’s temper tantrum.

      • I now declare point 3 proven.

        • Mary Ann

          But we have already seen it happen when he has lost on previous occasions. It would make a refreshing change not to see it.

      • digoridoo

        I’m British and live in Germany (O me miserum!) and I’d vote to leave like a shot, if I hadn’t been living here for over 15 years.
        Last time I looked all my screws were tightened up properly. Do the only sensible thing. Get out.

      • Jackthesmilingblack

        I’m so accustomed to being excluded from all UK elections, I haven’t bothered to enquire if I was eligible to vote in the up-coming UK: IN/OUT of EU referendum. How would I go about getting a postal vote?
        I’d be voting OUT by the way.
        Jack, the Japan Alps Brit

    • Bigbluesky

      Other symptoms of a failing campaign:
      1. Pretending that Scumbags don’t exist because they hold the same views as you do.
      2. Believing in the sh*te the media produces to achieve the result they want.
      3. Vilification of anyone with a counter view.
      4. Refusing to recognise that your side has sunk to using paid shills.
      5. Shouting down anyone who expresses a view you don’t like
      6. Refusing to recognise that your side is so corrupt it probably will fiddle the vote

      • You have just proved my points 2, 3, 4, 5 & 6 – thank you.

        • Bigbluesky

          I’ve said it before but it bears repeating.
          You really are not the full shilling are you. No, its far worse you are actually suffering from delusional psychosis. It’s time you were locked up before you harm yourself or more importantly someone else.

          • Wizard Rule 77: People that are losing an argument will often try to discredit the person they are arguing with. (In football this tactic is known as “Playing The Man”)

          • Bigbluesky

            Wizard Rule 77: When losing an argument whine like a delusional fantasist psychotic.

          • I guess originality is not your strong point.

          • Pretty_Polly

            This so called OmnipotentWizard character is seriously nasty. He posted this to me earlier today..

            ‘Wizard rides off slowly into the shimmering desert heat leaving Polly laying in a pool of blood in the middle of the street while the music of Ennio Morricone plays in the background.’

  • MrBishi

    The world’s leading neuropsychiatric professor has just identified Boris Johnson’s problem as the very rare “London Mayoral Tourettes Syndrome”.
    Brexiters are leaping to Boris’s defence citing the well known “Ken Livingstone defence” which relies heavily on historical accuracy.

  • TigerUppercrust

    Voting “Remain” is the act of the pig ignorant, the lobotomised and of course the enemy within.

    Voting, ie using your democratic right, to hand over your self determination is an idiotic concept unparalleled in history.

    • AWoLsco

      “to hand over your self determination is an idiotic concept unparalleled in history.”

      Yes…… a bad case of ‘Stockholm Syndrome’ or ‘Anglo Syndrome'( a dreadful affliction) as it’s known in Scotland, where the captured, perversely develop some ’empathy’ with their captors, swindlers and potential executioners, prior to collecting a well-deserved Darwin Award.

      • TigerUppercrust

        The Scottish independence vote was a farce, rendered as it always was ,obsolete by the EU vote.

        • AWoLsco

          “The Sottish indepenence vote was a farce”

          No, it was too serious and pathetic to be a farce.
          It was more like voluntary euthanasia.
          Any nation that allows the enemy to vote in its own elections and referendums, really does deserve all that’s coming to it.

          It’s like the Greeks asking the Persians to vote along with the ‘demos’ as to whether Athens should take up arms and resist invasion.
          Any guesses as to how the Persians might have exercised their ‘democratic rights’ in that fantastic, impossible scenario?

          • Vieuxceps2

            “the enemy”? Do elucidate,won’t you……

          • AWoLsco

            ” the enemy”? Do elucidate,won’t you……”

            Sure…..anyone that is not Scottish.
            I hope that is clear and simple enough for you to understand

          • Vieuxceps2

            Bingo! Give yourself a cigar for being the best victim ever, anywhere. You are a true Scot.

          • AWoLsco

            “You are a true Scot.”

            …and a canny one….ye’se ken.

  • Suzy61

    Follow the money, Toby.

    Those that ‘have’ will vote to stay in.

    Those that ‘have not’ will vote to come out.

    The ‘haves’ choose to help the migrant poor (rather than their own) because they are shallow and stupid. This is the only way they get an invitation to North London dinner parties with like-minded muppets.

    Very soon Hermes will design a new handbag in which these goons can carry around an Eritrean ‘man-child’. They’ll charge 20,000 for it – and there will be a queue of dim-wits happy to go on a waiting list and willing to pay the asking.price.

    What price virtue, eh? They will gladly step over the local tramp (ironically, more likely to be a recent migrant) while holding their noses.

    Meanwhile, back at the Corbyn camp, the social justice warriors will cry for a level-playing field for ALL, but crucially, they will exclude the poor, ill-educated, British unemployed. We live in a global world. The British are no more entitled to a job in their Motherland than those who have just arrived….their argument goes like this..

    .”It was the Tories what done it “.

    Really?

    Are they sure that it wasn’t ‘Labour’ what done it’?

  • Lyman_Sweetwater

    The British Navy was built on the tradition of rum, the lash, & SODOMY…

    The multiculturalism imposed on you Brits by the Int’l Jew has successfully SODOMIZED your minds…

    • AWoLsco

      “The British Navy was built on the tradition of rum, the lash, & SODOMY…”

      Not true.

      This is one of old ‘Stinkweed’ Churchill’s many merry quips, which, although ringing a bell with the many arty-farty, marxist lounge-lizards that now festoon our houses of learning, registers nothing but hither -too silent contempt, with the real men that go to sea, and actually have some ken of ships, and what it takes to run them.

      “The multiculturalism imposed on you Brits by the Int’l Jew has successfully SODOMIZED your mind”

      That is true.

      All Britain has been duped by those oleaginous parasites which Oliver Cromwell, the crazed religious zealot and prime dupe, so stupidly re-admitted to those Islands, after their having been expelled in 1290 by King Edward I of England, forced to wage war upon Scotland, unnecessarily.
      Had he only told the Scots that he had expelled the jews from England, then all canny Scots of good character would have agreed to union with England with delight and deep joy.

      • Lyman_Sweetwater

        Rum, Lash, and SODOMY still a great quote…Let’s not forget the usefulness of the “Peg Boy”…

        • AWoLsco

          “Rum, Lash, and SODOMY still a great quote”

          I’ve been searching all this time for quotes on the jewish navy.
          Crivens, cripes and golly gosh…….I can’t find any.

          • Lyman_Sweetwater

            They are the most deviant, perverted, fugly humans on the planet:
            ie The hasidim, American JEWS Woody Allen, Allen Ginsberg, Alan Greenspan, Henry “Nostrils” Waxman, Anthony “Carlos Danger” Weiner, actors Seth Rogan & Sacha Baron Cohen and on and on.

            If you dig into the rot of society you will find the JEW…

          • AWoLsco

            “If you dig into the rot of society you will find the JEW.”

            ….and their little helpers, the masons, and basically anyone who is bent. Everyone knows that already, but what has this got to do with rum, sodomy and the lash in the British navy?

          • Lyman_Sweetwater

            It has nothing to do with it…

          • Adam Peak

            Again, you’re just talking meaningless drivel. This Jew says: give us both a pen and paper. Let’s draw a map of Britain, from memory. Let’s see who knows more about this country. Let’s see who knows where the hills and mountains are, the course of the rivers, the layout of the towns and cities, the road and rail routes. I know more about this country than you, I have a deeper love for it, I do more to make it a better place than you. I’m basically better at being British than you!

            So again, another illogical halfwit who crumbles when their facile soundbites are eviscerated. Who’s next, anyone else want to have a go? Gimme your best (rhetorical) shot! I’ll play 🙂

          • AWoLsco

            “I know more about this country than you, I have a deeper love for it, I
            do more to make it a better place than you.”

            Gosh, what an incredible polymath….and so modest with it.
            ………just the very sort of chap you want to have looking after your pension fund.

            “I’m basically better at being British than you!”

            Ever thought of taking it up full-time? A chap with your prodigious talents should turn professional.

          • Adam Peak

            Don’t see any scientific evidence that my claims are bogus in there! You admitting I am a better Brit than you? I’ll give you a quick lesson:

            Two World Wars which we won. Sounds like you’d have been on the losing side ergo I’m better at being British than you. Whereas you’d have been flying a Messerschmitt with views like yours, I’d have been looping the loop in a Spitfire. I’m more of a Brit than you will ever be!

          • AWoLsco

            Be careful in that Spitfire of yours….the engine cuts out in -ve g, due to the primitive float carburettor, whereas the Messerschmitt is fuel-injected and thus the engine keeps running.

          • Adam Peak

            Didn’t help you N*zi losers win though, did it? It’s the character of the pilots that wins wars, like us Brits beat you lot. Twice. Not the quality of the metal flying machines.

            Not that this is a technical contest between aeronautical engineers, just a debate about who out of us two is more British. I say, this Jew is provably more patriotic and pro-British than quislings like you!

          • AWoLsco

            “Didn’t help you N*zi losers win though, did it?”

            Let’s see. We had 70 million Germans up against the USA, the Soviet Union and the British empire combined.

            It should have been a walk-over.
            What took you so long?
            Moral and intellectual degeneracy? Lack of fighting ability? Technological inferiority? Lack of backbone?
            Not really terribly impressive when you look at WW2 in the cold light of day without the old rose- tinted spectacles.

          • Adam Peak

            What took us so long? A true Englishman will never be rushed. There’s a proper way of doing things, old bean. When duty called, we stepped up and got the job done efficiently and effectively. Above all we won fairly – when push comes to a shove, us Brits will pummel you into the ground in order to incapacitate you…but once you’re down we’ll extend the hand of friendship and help you back on your feet.

            Er strangely enough this has been quite an enjoyable, if surreal, little debate. Must be the good old Jewish sense of humour!

          • AWoLsco

            A surprisingly poor, and extremely vague, answer from our resident ‘Brain of Britain’…….. so full of romantic mush and guff, that I feel his talents are wasted here in the tiny British Isles, and would have been better put to use in the Hollywood dream factory.

          • Adam Peak

            AWoLsco, I don’t know how to break this to you, but I’ll try…I wasn’t ACTUALLY THERE in World War 2, I’m not 95 years old, and therefore my description of flying planes in a war that was already won 30 years before my birth is, I confess, rather hazy.

            I was enjoying the comedy, in fact I thought between us, despite the gags, we were actually making a rather good, and very British, display of banter, joshing and the ability to rise above disagreements and find some common ground. From your opening post about it being morally acceptable to murder Jews, more or less, because they’re only vermin after all, through to my logical, reason-based takedowns of your flawed thinking – I thought this was a rather good debate which, and even you might agree on this, demonstrates clearly why freedom of speech is so important, and why we shouldn’t all run to “Mummy” for help if someone says something waaaycist!

            Someone on a forum has just said that I’m fair game to be killed because of my heritage and yet I can still joke with them, knowing that their point of view is so ridiculous that I can logically refute it in a sentence.

          • AWoLsco

            “about it being morally acceptable to murder Jews,”

            You misread my post. I was more worried about being murdered by jews.
            I haven’t yet got around to thinking about what should be done with them….but when I do, I’ll let you know.

            “rather good debate which, and even you might agree on this, demonstrates clearly why freedom of speech is so important,”

            Well, there you’ve got me on side with that statement. In fact in order to set a friendlier tone I’ll go further and say that some of the most interesting conversations I ‘ve ever had have been with jews.

            Here’s the deal…you lay off trying to whip up anti-German feeling, undermining Scottish nationalism and having a go at Christianity….and I’ll lay off you lot.

          • Adam Peak

            Well instead of letting me know what you think should be done with “them”, you might as well do what you want directly to me and my family. But, if it puts your mind at rest, neither me nor anyone I know wants to murder you, so maybe we’re not so much of a threat as you might have thought! I certainly never got the memo to kill British people…

            Far from it, my descendants were made to feel welcome here having fled from Germany at the beginning of the war, they kept a low profile, never asked for anything, never wanted British society changed in any way – just wanted to live their lives quietly and unassumingly, integrated into Britain and perfectly happy with Christianity as the main religion.

            At least half of the Jews in my family married Christians. One is even a vicar!

            If what you were saying was true, I’d choose being British over being Jewish, for the simple reason that “it ain’t where you’re from, it’s where you’re at.” Luckily, however, never once in my life have I been made to choose between my Jewish ancestry and my allegiance to the throne. There may be a tiny, tiny handful of antisocial Jews, but there sure as heck just as many antisocial Christians, Muslims and atheists!

            The stuff about Scottish Nationalism – I’ve got no idea what on earth that has to do with being Jewish. I just hate the SNP because they creep me out with their Big Brother policies.

            Shalom, as we say!

          • AWoLsco

            “But, if it puts your mind at rest, neither me nor anyone I know wants to murder you, so maybe we’re not so much of a threat as you might have thought!”

            Perhaps so…..but that wasn’t the case in Russia.

            “they kept a low profile, never asked for anything, never wanted British society changed in any way -”

            Yes, I particularly liked the way they handled discrimination of membership of a golf club in Leeds….they bought the Golf club. That’s the way to do it!

            “Luckily, however, never once in my life have I been made to choose between my Jewish ancestry and my allegiance to the throne.”

            But what if you were forced to choose? Easy enough to talk. Actions are a different matter entirely.

            “tiny handful of antisocial Jews, but there sure as heck just as many antisocial Christians, Muslims and atheists!”

            Maybe so, but they’re not half as smart.

            It’s like comparing a blunderbuss with a modern sniper’s rifle.

            “I’ve got no idea what on earth that(Scottish nationalism) has to do with being Jewish.”

            It’s pretty straight forward. Jews don’t like little nations because jews stand out in the crowd…and it’s another language, culture and monetary system that needs to be adapted to. Much better to have all the ‘goys’ herded together in one amorphous mass,disarmed, as was done in Soviet Russia, then the country/empire can be looted at will.
            Now I know that you personally would never for one moment consider being part of such a dastardly scheme, and also, many jews that were opposed to that iniquitous regime died too….but nevertheless, it was the jews that ended up running the show….and nothing can change that.

            Interestingly, when promoting the Scottish cause at the time of the referendum, I was opposed by English people, naturally, but as time went on, I encountered more and more posts that were very un-English in tone and character, employing filthy, smutty, vitriolic language, the like of which I had never heard before from any Englishman.
            Then it clicked……they were jews….appalled at the prospect of Scotland splitting off.

            What if this caught on elsewhere in Europe? What hope then for a massive trading bloc that can be looted at will?
            None at all.

            So, if you don’t want to be regarded with some suspicion, then it might just be an idea to have a word or two with that ‘tiny,tiny minority’ that you were referring to.

          • Adam Peak

            Oh my days…where to begin? This all sounds like it’s derived from The Protocols Of The Elders Of Zion. I feel like a psychiatrist being hounded by a Scientologist.

            “Maybe so, but they’re not half as smart. It’s like comparing a blunderbuss with a modern sniper’s rifle.”

            —— If you can provide scientific evidence proving Jewish people are smarter than average then I would take it as a compliment! Being clever is not a bad quality, surely? I’m not convinced there is any correlation between Jewish ancestry and being smart, but if there is it’s probably balanced by a lower than average athletic prowess, so I guess we’re quits…

            “It’s pretty straight forward. Jews don’t like little nations because jews stand out in the crowd…and it’s another language, culture and monetary system that needs to be adapted to. Much better to have all the ‘goys’ herded together in one amorphous mass,disarmed, as was done in Soviet Russia, then the country/empire can be looted at will.”

            —— This is just doolally! Do you even in your wildest dreams think Scottish Independence is of even 1% relevance to the Jewish Community in Britain today, Nobody in England cares about Scottish politics anyway, Jewish people are no different! I think you’ve got bigger Mars Bars to fry than worrying about a secret cabal of Jews plotting to loot all the haggis out of the glens.

            Now I know that you personally would never for one moment consider being part of such a dastardly scheme, and also, many jews that were opposed to that iniquitous regime died too….but nevertheless, it was the jews that ended up running the show….and nothing can change that.

            —— Which Jews, running which show? Names please. And even if you come up with a few people who are Jewish, is that a causal link between the teachings of the faith (I’m non-practising) and the immoral actions of a small group of people? What is it in the Jewish religion that specifically advocates herding up all the goys? Christians are more likely to persecute gays than Jewish people persecuting goys! Even feminists are more likely to persecute guys than Jewish people persecuting goys!

            Then it clicked……they were jews….appalled at the prospect of Scotland splitting off.

            —— What was it gave away their secret Jewishness? Did they sign off Levi, Cohen and Abrahams? The smell of gefilte fish? I think you’re mad as a box of frogs my friend – entertaining but I’m open to facts and evidence, if you have any!

            So, if you don’t want to be regarded with some suspicion, then it might just be an idea to have a word or two with that ‘tiny,tiny minority’ that you were referring to.

            —— As we all know each other personally, if you give me some names I’ll have a word with them and let them know there’s some utterly bonkers guy in Scotland who knows what we’re up to and is bang onto our secret plan to take over Britain and make every Subway serve only unleavened bread and bagels.

          • AWoLsco

            “I would take it as a compliment! Being clever is not a bad quality, surely?”

            No, but it is something that should be taken with a pinch of salt. Clever plus high moral sense and practice….good.
            Clever minus moral sense and practice ….bad

            “I’m not convinced there is any correlation between Jewish ancestry and being smart,”

            Neither am I. ….but being part of a team, while not letting on to that fact, can make a jew appear smarter than he is. The jew rarely functions as a lone individual, but is part of a commune. They are natural communists.

            “lower than average athletic prowess,”

            Something I observed for myself at school. Us stupid goys would be kicking balls and each other while the jews were anxiously studying the markets and market trends in Exchange and Mart. But that’s us European goys for you, hopelessly obsessed with heroism and fine deeds ( often pointless ones), rather than concentrating on the things that really matter in life….like cutting a fine deal and striking a hard and favourable bargain.

            “This is just doolally!”

            …translated…that means I have struck the nail on the head.

            “in your wildest dreams think Scottish Independence is of even 1% relevance to the Jewish Community in Britain today,”

            I sure do. The feigned incredulity and not so subtle attempts to dismiss this, are proof positive….and it has been so, since the jews installed their man, Willem Stadholder, the Dutch desperado, alias King Billy III, as ‘their’ man in old London Town, some three centuries ago.

            “Which Jews, running which show? Names please.”

            Sure. Let’s start with Lenny Lenin, Vladimir Ulyanov, part jewish and a product of incest.
            Leiba Bronstein……Trotsky
            Zinoviev….Apfelbaum.
            Beria……
            Even Stalin, the mighty midget ‘man of steel’, was humble bank-robber Josef Djugashvilli….Josef…..son of the jew, married to a jewess.
            Even in my time Kruschev was jewish….real name Salomon Perlemutter etc etc It just goes on and on, right up to the time of the demise of the USSR in 1991.

            “What is it in the Jewish religion that specifically advocates herding up all the goys?”

            Oh, nothing specifically, but the Talmud makes it clear that the function of goys is to serve the jew….and however that comes about is seen as ….’a jolly good thing’.
            Perhaps, not altogether surprisingly…I take a slightly different view on the matter.

            “Christians are more likely to persecute gays than Jewish people
            persecuting goys! Even feminists are more likely to persecute guys than Jewish people persecuting goys!”

            …and had it not been for the Russian revolution, I would agree with you.

            “What was it gave away their secret Jewishness? Did they sign off Levi, Cohen and Abrahams?”

            Nope. A contempt for Scotland and all it stands for. One jew was obviously born and brought up in Scotland. I even managed to track down where and when. They’d written articles on other subjects and it was easy to recognise the style and construction of sentences.

            Another revealed he was jewish by his pseudonym and his reaction to being described as a middle-eastern, peripatetic tent-dweller and camel-herder, of dubious loyalty. He and his fellow itinerants managed to have me removed from commenting on the Telegraph for life. I should add that I enjoyed my exchanges with this character…and still do…when opportunity permits. He’s very sharp and makes me have to don my thinking cap.

            “As we all know each other personally, if you give me some names I’ll have a word with them”

            Yes, I take your point, but you could always have a word with the local rabbi. You may not know who those people are, but he most certainly does……. maybe not personally, but he knows of them, and how to contact them.
            I suspect you won’t do this…for unless I am very much mistaken….you don’t tell the rabbi your opinion. He tells you what his is.

          • AWoLsco

            “Detected as spam”

            I retain a copy of my reply, for my own use in the future….and anyone else that might be interested..

          • Adam Peak

            What do you mean “detected as spam”? This is a forum, not an email service. I don’t know what you’re referring to, but as it’s nothing to do with me, I can only assume you replied to me in error with this comment!

          • Bendys

            Perhaps this will jog your memory.

            From:
            A COLLECTION OF REPORTS ON BOLSHEVISM IN RUSSIA
            Presented to Parliament by Command of His Majesty. April 1919.

            “Russian working classes not represented by Bolsheviks, most of latter being Jews. Murder of labourers, owing to non-support of Bolshevism.”
            page 33

            And here is the original:
            https://ia800208.us.archive.org/21/items/RussiaNo.1/47439722-Russia-No-1.pdf

            Denis Fahey – The Real Rulers of Russia
            (there is a list with the Bolshevik rulers’ names and nationalities right at the beginning)
            https://ia800802.us.archive.org/7/items/TheRulersOfRussia-AmericanEdition-ByRevDenisFahey/TheRulersOfRussia-AmericanEdition-ByRevDenisFahey.pdf

            Russia’s Agony
            by Mr. Robert Wilton
            Correspondent of The Times at Petrograd
            https://ia801406.us.archive.org/4/items/russiasagony00wiltgoog/russiasagony00wiltgoog.pdf

          • Adam Peak

            OK well thanks for taking the trouble to post some links, genuinely appreciated I will have to spend some time reading through it carefully before coming back with any queries. One thing I will say though, to try and bring this topic back (vaguely) to the subject in hand:

            If (and I do say “If”) having read this in detail I concur with your hypothesis that a few bad people in Russia, 100 years ago, decided to discriminate unfavourably against non-Jews, the issue lies with them as individual people, not intrinsically with either the Jewish faith (to be honest, all religious faiths are essentially fairy stories/metaphors rather than instructions to be followed IMO), nor genetic characteristics. A few bad people might have had some very bad ethics in a distant plot in a faraway land, that may possibly be true. But it could equally be their Russian genes or background that screwed them up mentally. There is no causal link between their Jewishness and their behaviour, and I can prove it.

            I can prove it because this Jew never got the memo. This is news to me. I was never indoctrinated, I was never informed nor included. If I was going to criticise Islam or Christianity, I would look at what people are being taught today, I would look at official representatives of the religions and the messages they are spreading. I don’t have to go back far in time to find atrocious behaviour from Muslims and Christians, but if there’s no causal link between the bad actions and the faith/teachings/genetics of the religion or race, then it’s logically invalid to say “All Jews are this or that” just because overseas, centuries ago, there were some bad Jewish people.

            What you’ve provided is arcane, not saying it’s not true, but it’ll come as news to 99% of British Jews who have no knowledge nor interest in discriminating against anybody else whatsoever.

          • Bendys

            Well, if you want to look “at what people are being taught today” and at “official representatives of the religions and the messages they are spreading”, I have one very interesting message for you from one such representative.
            I make no comment on it, just like I didn’t actually comment re the links I posted, despite your making different conjectures.

            From JUDAISM ONLINE (by Rabbi Yirmeyahu Bindman):

            “The world is often very surprised to discover that the Jewish faith
            includes a complete provision for all non-Jews, regardless of race,
            social class or national origin, perfectly attuned to their needs, and
            deriving from the same source in Divine revelation through the prophecy of Moses, without any intermediary whatsoever. Only the true universal faith of the Jews regularly offers something to those who are not its members.”
            “This provision is known as the NOACHIDE LAWS.”

            “The laws are all prohibitions, unlike those of the Jewish people who have affirmative commandments, but they are not intended to make life dull or restricted. They point out what the good and true path should be, and with this path all moral necessities for the non-Jews are established, without need for any other philosophy, scientific discovery or change in government.”

            Sexual Transgression
            “Jews and non-Jews are forbidden to each other. When these laws are observed, then human relations of all kinds are enhanced by the Divine sanction, and love increases throughout the world.”

            Murder
            “The murderer is executed by decapitation.”

            Idolatry
            “If the worship of entities other than the Creator had not been forbidden by His express command, then people would be free to choose what to worship, just as they choose their own personal friends. However the whole area of relations between humanity and its Creator has been placed under specific requirements, namely that only His truth and unity should be the subject of belief, worship and philosophy. His revelation has two levels, the one in nature for ordinary reckoning, and the other through prophecy on Mount Sinai for the moral law. All non-Jews derive their true religious fulfillment from this latter source, and ANY REFERENCE TO AN INTERMEDIARY CAUSES ERROR AND LOSS OF MORALITY.”

            System of justice
            “THE NON-JEWISH NATIONS OF THE WORLD ARE COMMANDED to avoid the state of anarchy by assuming and exercising the sovereign jurisdiction, to maintain courts that punish offenders by due process of law, and that provide civil redress in society. THE NOACHIDE LAWS THEMSELVES FORM THE BASIS OF THE CRIMINAL CODE, but each nation may make civil laws as it sees fit within the general guidelines. This provision does not apply within the Land of Israel, where the sovereign power is in the hands of the Jewish people, and they judge non-Jews of any nationality living or visiting there under these same Noachide Laws.”

            This is among the recognitions of the United States Congress in its
            Declaration ENDORSING the Noachide Laws (H.J. Res. 104, Public Law 102-14, March 1990 and subsequently), based on long historic
            understanding of the Jewish people and the Torah.

            http://www.simpletoremember.com/articles/a/seven-laws-of-noah/
            http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c102:H.J.RES.104.ENR:

          • Adam Peak

            I stopped reading at “Adam and Eve…” Not your fault – just another stupid made-up fairy story. Clearly Jewish scriptures are no different from any others in their refusal to obey the laws of logic and reason. The first couple of sentences however say unequivocally that Judaism isn’t about seeking to convert people, so from that point at least it’s not a harmful fairy story in terms of justifying war or terrorism, at least it’s based on the tenet of “live and let live.”

            Maybe you need to differentiate between Jewish heritage and Jewish teachings, and take people who are Jewish by birth like me at our word that we don’t subscribe to this boll0cks!

            Good find, I’m grateful for it. But is this really any worse than a million fundamentalist Christian, Muslim, Sikh or Hindu teachings? They’re all a crock of shyte, and I think maybe your logical flaw comes from thinking Jewish rubbish is any more offensive than Christian or Muslim rubbish. Maybe your real problem is with fundamentalists, who try and apply these kind of dogmatic teaches to messy reality.

            Interesting debate though, thanks for engaging, and once again. Shalom! Now don’t go buggering people, you know it’s against the Seven Laws of Noah 😉

          • Bendys

            It’s amazing how much you’ve been able to deduce from my not commenting on that site.
            However I have a question – why was this “rubbish” (as you called it) endorsed by the US Congress ?

          • Adam Peak

            (a) I don’t know, I’m not American. Ask them.
            (b) I do call it rubbish because anything that refers to Adam & Eve is inherently made-up IMO (and the opinion of the scientific, rational, reality-based community – whether it be Christian, Jewish, Muslim or anything. If it attempts to pass off biblical mythology as uncontested fact then it’s highly likely to be gibberish.
            (c) To prove my point, here’s a page it literally took me 10 second to Google, Christian views on homosexuality. http://carm.org/christianity-and-homosexuality According to your logic, all Christian societies basing their laws and morality on the Bible (eg, technically speaking, the UK) would be totally opposed to the legalisation of homosexuality. The fact that the UK is still a Christian country yet has legaliised homosexuality demonstrates that it is totally possible, indeed desirable, to update, review and change policies that are obsolete.

            As a Jew I would distance myself from that document, I agree with you it’s divisive crap, that’s not in question. I just want to make the case that normal moderate Jewish people like myself aren’t interested in, or aware of anything like that, and if they’re anything like me would distance themselves from it, the way we expect moderate Muslims to speak out against radical Islamism, and the way normal moderate Christians don’t really want gay people imprisoned.

            At root, I believe morality and ethics are personal rather than derived from genetics or religious teachings.

          • Bendys

            Again putting words in my mouth.
            “According to your logic”
            What logic ? Where have I said anything other than presenting the site(s) and asking a question ?

          • Adam Peak

            The logic that all Jewish people can give you an instant explanation for a document they’ve never heard of, don’t agree with. You asked me why the US Congress endorsed it, as if I’d know!

            The framing of an obscure document as something ALL Jews support, and no acceptance of my personal testimony that this document does not apply to me or any Jewish person who has not specifically supported it.

            I never really empathised with moderate Muslims before, but this debate is now showing me what it must be like for secular, rational people who just happen to have Muslim parents, no matter what they do for a living, how nice they are as people, to have the insinuation that secretly they are out to cause trouble.

            Or for another analogy, would I expect all Liverpool fans to be football hooligans because of their reputation in the 80s?

            I don’t really disagree with you, I’m on your side, I’m just trying to put your mind at rest and say that most moderate, non-mental Jews wouldn’t wipe their Jewish arses with that doc! I’m grateful you posted though.

          • Bendys

            That’s not my logic. You assumed it was.
            However if you don’t know why the US Congress would endorse in law a seemingly obscure document of a tiny community, I’ll ask somebody else.

          • Adam Peak

            No, I didn’t assume that was your logic…I proved it 😉

            This Jew doesn’t know why the US Congress endorses any laws, from Jewish issues to gun law to abortion to health care. Neither does this Jew know why some Russians years ago said what they said. Which proves logically that whatever is behind these documents isn’t intrinsically anything to do with Jewish genes.

            Maybe someone else will have a better answer than me. See if you can find someone! Good luck 🙂

          • Bendys

            You didn’t prove anything other than dodging the issue of the Jewish involvement in many things (and places) where they don’t have any business to be.
            But, like I said, I’ll ask somebody else.

          • Adam Peak

            Maybe you’d be better off moving to Iran, you’d have nothing to worry about and could get on with your happy, productive life in peace and harmony, without the imminent threat to your existence from us Jews that is clearly troubling your every waking moment here in the Zionist state of Britain (with its totalitarian Jewish regime evident in such staunch bastions of hardcore Judaism as Rotherham, Rochdale and Tower Hamlets)?

          • Bendys

            “Major pro-EU campaign donor holds big stake in firm behind Israel’s segregation wall”
            https://www.rt.com/uk/342904-eu-remain-donor-israel/

            “Kirsh, the business tycoon who heads a multinational business empire controlled through his Kirsh Holdings Group, is one of the richest men in the world, having made his fortune during the Apartheid regime in South Africa and in a variety of other ventures since then.
            Aside from his dodgy past, Kirsh is well known to have untold billions in assets and companies domiciled in tax havens from the British Virgin Islands to Liberia. Perhaps most notorious among his recent money-making projects has been the massive contracts awarded to his company Magal Security Systems by the Israeli government to provide electronic fences and security systems for the apartheid wall Israel constructed, and which has been almost universally condemned as illegal.”
            https://libya360.wordpress.com/2016/03/28/brics-under-attack-the-empires-destabilizing-hand-reaches-into-south-africa/

            “Billionaire donor using British Council to combat Israel boycott”
            http://www.bricup.org.uk/documents/archive/bricupnewsletter98.pdf

          • Adam Peak

            No, if you dig deep enough into the rot of society you won’t find THIS Jew. This Jew is a patriotic Brit who has devoted my life to making Britain a better place. I’ve contributed to British cultural life, academic life, the public sector and private enterprise. Above all, I am personally doing more than any other person on this thread to conserve the hills and mountains that make up the national watershed and protect the country’s water supply.

            I’m not perfect (hahahahahahaha), I’m a very flawed individual. But the reason I write this is that I’m just one of several thousand Jewish people in Britain who are living, breathing refutation of your dangerously bonkers conspiracy theory crap. I still don’t think you should be censored or “told off” for your comments – as a true Brit I even respect your right to express your opinion. I’d rather it was out in the open, just so I can logically refute your points and show you up as an ignoramus in public!

            If you genuinely care about Britain, if you’re genuinely interested in the truth and if you’re actually a decent person, then my contribution to this debate will immediately render your original hypothesis void, therefore hopefully causing you to rethink your fatally flawed opening gambit and maybe give you the chance to try again with something that isn’t demonstrably cobblers!

            Oy veh -_-

  • Dryermartinithanyours

    What a beautiful thesis in every regard. Thank you for the clarity.

  • El Pochito

    Toby Young and Boris Johnson are polar opposites in many ways, one brimming with charm and gravitas, the other devoid of any charm and seemingly uncomfortable in his own skin (I don’t need to state which is which)… that said, they do have one thing in common – both promote themselves above anything else – in a way to be admired. The problem comes when that gets mixed in with campaigning, their motives seem questionable. Boris seems to be laying the groundwork for a landgrab within the Conservative party, Young uses it as a way of ingratiating himself within the cool set 🙂

    The Leave campaign should be using people like Gove, Hannan and Gisela Stuart. They make the case well and as campaigners they are credible. Daniel Hannan is especially convincing, a shame we don’t hear more of him in the media.

    • Andrew Ryan

      “Toby Young and Boris Johnson are polar opposites in many ways, one brimming with charm and gravitas, the other devoid of any charm and seemingly uncomfortable in his own skin (I don’t need to state which is which)”

      I’m trying desperately to work out which of them is supposed to have charm.

  • El Pochito

    Much as Toby Young grates some people, he makes the case well in this piece. He should never try and front it, give it to Daniel Hannan and Gisela Stuart to sell to the public, from them it would be very credible.

  • Norton Folgate

    A thought-provoking piece. And the Euro debate continues at a hyper-local level in the Dalston Mercury. Savage stuff: http://ow.ly/3I3a300enCe

  • Mr B J Mann

    “He is right, up to a point. Brexiters are less educated (only 15 per cent are graduates, says YouGov, against 37 per cent of Remainers) and older (Clacton has the highest proportion of retirees in England and Wales). These elderly, uneducated, lumpen proles…….”

    Except that these elderly, uneducated, lumpen proles went to school at a time when only 8%, maybe less than 5% (early 60s) or even under 2% (pre war) went to university.

    They might even be from a time when they skived off to war instead of going to university.

    And yet “only” 15 per cent are graduates?!

    Not only that, many Grammar School (and Secondary) pupils would have gone straight into training for what would now be considered “graduate” jobs in the public sector (teaching, nursing, police, army officer, council officer, civil service) or private (management, engineering…..) on the strength of their A Levels and even O Levels!

    A Levels and even O Levels that the majority of today’s university applicants couldn’t pass!!

    But then in the bad old days you were taught how to think, not what to think!!!

  • Central power

    Excellent quote from O’Leary:
    “If you’re an airline you don’t have cheap labour. We have expensive pilots, expensive engineers, expensive cabin crew.
    But, look, if I thought it was in Ryanair’s best interests, or if it was in the UK’s best interests, I would make more money if the UK left the European Union, I would be advocating Leave. The fact is, we don’t, and the reason why so-called captains of industry and the leaders of big companies want the UK to stay in is because we absolutely believe that that’s in the best interests of the UK economy, it is better for UK jobs, it’s better ultimately for our profits. And our profits in Ryanair get reinvested. We buy lots more new aircraft …
    Business follows profit, and the profit interest and the economic interest of the UK is absolutely four-square for staying in Europe.
    In respect of Boris Johnson, he’s never run a sweet shop.”
    End of quote.
    I am expecting all Brexiters to call O’Leary a liar, Mr Project Fear, a bully etc.

    • Mr B J Mann

      “expensive cabin crew”? Yeah, and expensive check-in crew, and baggage handlers…

      Not even pilots are that well paid any more.

      Ryanair might benefit from the EU (when was Ryanair set up, and when did Ireland join the EU?) but that doesn’t mean anyone else does!

      • Central power

        If the company does not benefit – it is unlikely the company’s employees will do either.

        • Mr B J Mann

          Balderdash!

          As with most Remaiders you cannot grasp the fact that a company (or GDP) can benefit from something that harms its employees.

          Which you would think is bleedin obvious.

          But it still manages to escape the Remainders,

          The obvious example is a company keeping more profits for shareholders while paying it’s employees less.

          Or cutting overheads by laying off staff and expecting the rest to work harder and even do unpaid overtime.

          Or laying off staff in the UK and taking on cheaper staff from Eastern Europe.

          Or laying off staff and taking on a services company which uses cheaper staff from Eastern Europe or African immigrants..

          Or paying staff less, siphoning off profits to holding companies in Ireland or Luxembourg, then to a Carribean tax haven, avoiding tax, leaving their lower paid employees to make up the difference with higher taxes.

          Also Ryanair, rather than paying local councils to land at their airports, use their muscle to force the local authorities to PAY Ryanair to land at their airports.

          Some, or all, of which, are allowed, or facilitated, by the EU.

          At least for the big corporates who can lobby Brussels to the disadvantage of those with no voice, like small employers, employees, and the rest of the general public.

          I have to wonder if you really struggle to see the bleedin obvious.

          Or are you a shill for the EU or Ryanair?!

          But, yes, employees can benefit from many things that don’t benefit the company: higher minimum wages, tax moved from income to profits, maximum hours……

  • EdmundF

    Staying in the EU will result in us being mandated to join the Euro (we have no veto any more) and bail out the forthcoming bloodbath when Spanish, Italian, French and, finally, German banks are admitted to be insolvent.

    • Central power

      Your Project Fear or your Project Lies.Otherwise supply the evidence.

      • EdmundF

        Lies? Monetary and Economic Union is the widely stated aim of the EU. Apart from the UK and Denmark every EU member is forced to convert to the Euro once certain criteria are met. They don’t have any say in the matter. How long do you think our opt-out will survive when it’s 19-2 or 20-1?

        • Central power

          You think.

          • The_Common_Potato

            You don’t.

  • Mary Barnes

    We need the EU for geopolitical security. A weak and divided Europe will be ripe for plunder by non European superpowers like Russia, the USA, China and India.
    If you want to see a region full of geopolitical weakness and instability go to the Middle East which is riven by proxy wars, civil wars, puppet dictators, unexploited potential.
    The EU brings down xenophobia and nationalism. Why do we want to destroy one of the pillars of our geopolitical security?
    Europe will be destroyed by the sceptics?

    • Central power

      You sound too sensible. Most of the “contributors” on these pages will take no note what you said or will call you names.
      They are short on facts and any sensible point made is in their language Lies or Project Fear.
      Some comments made by them would put Julius Streicher to shame.They are admirers of the following:Putin, Trump, Johnson, Farrage and Galloway.
      Their various points and “explanations” are no different from those used by various conspiracy theorists. They are even cruder than the “commentators” on the pages of The Daily Mail.

      • Jack Rocks

        “or will call you names”

        … on you continue, calling people names.

      • Mary Barnes

        Thanx for the compliment.

    • Terry Mushroom

      “The EU brings down xenophobia and nationalism”

      How?

      • Central power

        Through cooperation however flawed – it is still cooperation. NATO and the EU precursor started roughly at the same time . NATO as a defense against the aggressive USSR (some idiots who claim otherwise probably never heard of the Berlin Blockade). Paris Treaty of 1951 was to prevent future conflicts between the signatories.
        To claim that Germany or any other European country is significantly nationalistic is simply not true. Election results or paltry nationalistic rallies bear it out.
        If you are unhappy about 70 years of peace and prosperity – you are free to try Africa, The Middle East or Afghanistan. But to deny irrefutable facts is what all conspiracy theorists are good at.

        • Terry Mushroom

          The EU precursor, as you call it, was a vastly different organisation to what we have now and are asked to commit to by voting remain.

          Peace is not all due to the politicians or the military either.

          The USSR was appalling. I travelled in East Germany & Poland of those days. But I understand all too well why the Russians and their satellites were so afraid of Germany for so long. Only a crazed few sing Deutchland uber alles”. But Germany is still an uncertain neighbour with a mixed attitude to free speech.

          • Central power

            People were not afraid of Germany at all.Why so many millions risked their lives trying to escape from the communist paradise ? Germany is a democratic country and has strong laws to protect it. Hateful xenophobic and antisemitic remarks as on these pages are not allowed,The man from Braunau am Inn had a complete “freedom” of speech and we know how it finished.
            The EU has evolved but the principle remains. It may have faults – but that it means well is undeniable. Why should it do otherwise ?
            Why would Switzerland signed to the EU? I know it is not the member but follows the EU rules. It can not pick and choose. One rule goes – all rules go.
            And the free movement of people is one of them. On the other hand they got the exception (as did the UK and Ireland) to the visa free travel for the Turks.
            The Swiss have banned building of minarets. EU did not object.
            Thus if the Johnsons, Farrages and Goves think they will negotiate any deal without the free movement of people they are mistaken. And believe me the EU will not give us a good deal for the sake of exports of a few BMWs or Merks. After all there are plenty of snobs in the UK who will buy them whatever price.

          • Terry Mushroom

            People were most certainly afraid of Germany. And many are still wary.
            The Russian did truly terrible things in the countries they occupied. But they did not try to exterminate languages, as a Pole pointed out to me whose father died at Katyn.

            Germany is trying hard. But it will take a while yet to flush out the poison.

      • Mary Barnes

        By uniting nations in a strong geopolitical block where we co-operate with each other.

        • Terry Mushroom

          When countries are joined together successfully, they need to have something that binds them, such as a common language, religion and empire. And to keep that going, some sort of common identity needs to be built on and mythologised.

          It’s no surprise that religious communities last on average three times as long as secular ones. The EU may have been built on the idea that nationalism is bad, but it has failed to present a viable alternative to it.

          Our basic right is our right to make laws. I don’t trust people in power if they can’t be removed by elections. That fact alone is enough to reject the EU. It’s not socialist or democratic – the EU is anti-democratic. Its principals are those of a free market, but not of a political system.

          • Mary Barnes

            The EU is democratic. It has an elected parliament, the leaders are appointed by the democratically elected leaders.
            If you hate lack of democracy then go bother about the House of Lords. The EU is democratic.
            Hitler was an extremist nationalist. He withdrew Germany from the League of Nations. Why do you think he did that?

          • The_Common_Potato

            How would you go about removing a member of the EU commission? Do you still think the EU is democratic?

          • Mary Barnes

            The Commission President is proposed by the European Council and elected by the European Parliament. The Council appoints the other twenty seven members of the Commission in agreement with the nominated President, and the twenty eight members as a single body are then subject to a vote of approval by the European Parliament. That is just as democratic as any other nation.

          • Terry Mushroom

            “… the leaders are appointed by the democratically elected leaders.” In a similar way that Life Peers are chosen for the House of Lords.

            Would cheerfully vote for a second chamber whose members were directly elected by voters if given the opportunity.

            I have not mentioned Hitler. However I note that the United States did not join the League.

    • The PrangWizard of England

      Have you not noticed that the EU is riven with discord, unemployment, and political extremes? The people are of no interest to the elites. Fences are going up inside the EU because of the insane decisions taken by the unelected EU bureaucrats and Germany in particular.
      If you have noticed these things you must have decided that the best place for your head is in the sand.
      It is the EU that is the problem, it is not the solution, and the UK is best out of it. A stronger NATO is what is needed, not some unworkable EU military, which if not dominated by Germany, which it beginning to be, would be unable to reach a decision on anything.
      I hope the EU is destroyed by the sceptics but the EU is not the same thing as Europe, and in case you are tempted to say it, the Soviet Union was not brought down by the EU.

  • Central power

    An air quality report that was not published by Boris Johnson while he was mayor of London demonstrates that 433 schools in the capital are located in areas that exceed EU limits for nitrogen dioxide pollution – and that four-fifths of those are in deprived areas.
    Called Analyzing Air Pollution Exposure in London the report found that in 2010, 433 of the city’s 1,777 primary schools were in areas where pollution breached the EU limits for NO2.
    Our Boris the fighter against the EU red tape.
    Once we are out of the EU we shall not worry about such mundane things as air pollution.
    Boris will make sure about that.
    After all the air quality at Eton is OK.

    • Jack Rocks

      If people are concerned about air pollution, they just need to elect someone who’s pledged to reduce it and throw him or her out if they don’t.

      It’s a bit of a mystery to me why this very basic aspect of democracy – an aspect the EU was set up to militate against, seems to be completely beyond you.

  • Plum-Tart

    On the plus side, if we remain in the EU we can get rid of 650 impotent MPs. Off with their heads…. and turn Westminster into social housing. Wot’s not to like?

  • Comment from London

    Clacton, Blackpool and Great Yarmouth (I’m not familiar with the other places mentioned) have been in decline since people could afford cheap holidays in the sun. You can’t really blame the EU, snobs or the metropolitan elite for that.

    I don’t wish them continued misfortune but I can’t see these sad seaside resorts getting any better as the purpose for their existence has disappeared.

    Of course Toby Young could always up sticks from leafy West London to set up free schools there. That would help but I can’t see him calling for the removal van just yet.

    • Jack_H

      Great Yarmouth wealth was from Herring fishing,it’s decline is more because although geographically close to London it has no direct rail or road link.

  • grumpyoldrockape

    Whether your main interest is equality, liberty, democracy, economic
    survival, sovereignty, debt reduction, increased export potential,
    encouraging entrepreneurs, fiscal independence, social fairness,
    overpopulation, community mutualism or calling leaders to account, it
    has become abundantly clear since 2008 that you will have to forfeit every one of these aspirations if your preference is to stay within the European Union.
    The EU is run by an unelected élite which largely ignores the
    individual, ignores election results, ignores State sovereignty, ignores
    debt mountains, ignores currency realities, ignores poverty, ignores
    its responsibilities and above all, ignores every legal and
    constitutional obstacle in its way.
    It is dominated by a Germany sailing at Full Ahead Both towards a
    confrontation with co-founder France. It puts the banking system before
    citizens. It puts corporate shareholder needs before workers’ rights.
    And it puts The Great Federal Project before any considerations of cost,
    practicality, Member State rights, social anthropology and freedoms of
    speech.

    In order to achieve ‘escape velocity’ however, the Brexit campaign
    needs to be cohesive, on the front foot, and persuading all the
    perfectly decent people out there who are confused, and thus undecided,
    about the pros and cons.

  • Mike Barlow

    Wonderful insightful and written with that whiff of truth that people don’t wish to smell. The truth is we, the white working class who have educated themselves (because no one bothered in some schools and there was no further education for most of us) and who remained locked into our backgrounds unable to step on any gravy train that always went past on another track and no one thought to help the white poor. Whilst liberal minded self-opinionated groups helped the overseas poor. And found help making businesses and Reggie Reggie sauce, built mosques on land costing a £1 and the Bank of India giving mortgages to other asians at 1%, but not to white couples. 12% of the country supposed to be racially ethnic and I still hear moaning there are not enough black people on TV and in film and media. Look at the actual numbers and see the lie for yourself. It’s like that child’s rhyme “There were ten little children in one bed and the little one said, roll over, roll over, so they all rolled over and one fell out….”

  • kyle lynch

    What a crock and an entire strawman argument. No one is arguing that the sole reason we should stay in or even a pertinent one. The main arguments for staying tend to resolve around the fact that the EU protects our Human Rights, encourages trade and economic growth, ecourages peace, more democratic, puts a chain on corporate interference, etc.

    Making it an us and them situation is just silly and there is little to no evidence about it. The main characters in the leave camp are just as educated and/or privillaged than the remain camp.

    How about this writer objectively tell us why we should leave the EU…

    • Jack_H

      Protects our “Human Rights”?……..bit of a straw man argument there I’m afraid.The powers of the authorities to detain us,spy on us and probably most of all steal from us with Quantitate Easing were all quietly ushered through by the ECHR.Encorages trade?……….not really,trade with the EU is shrinking in prortion to our trade with the rest of the world.Encorages peace?…..not in Ukraine and Georgia it didn’t….the rioting in Greece hardly points to a peaceful future either.Corperate influence is massively enhanced by the EU….hence Goldman,JP Morgan and Morgan Stanley are not just vocally supporting for us to remain they are stumping up large chunks of money.

      There is huge evidence of us and them,Sasha Baron Cohen’s recent film focused on Grimsby,poor white feckless unemployed brits……Ironically 60 Years ago Grimsby was a prosperous fishing port with very low unemployment.Today it is a deprived place,it’s main industry destroyed by our EU membership.Those who benefit from our membership shout loudly how important our membership is while ignoring those who have paid such a high price.Why shouldn’t those who have lost out have a voice?

      Write objectively?……that’s rather rich coming from someone who can’t think objectively

      • Ahimsa

        Have you asked yourself why the likes of Johnson, Gove, Farage, IDS, Trump etc. are suddenly the champions of the downtrodden and the saviours of the modern world? I’ll give you a clue, it’s not because of a lack of self interest…

        • Jack_H

          Have you asked yourself why those on the other side of the debate are quietly trying to remove our ability to choose our own leaders and hold them to account?……….You may not like the personalities but those who are championing democracy over dictatorship have my vote.

          • Ahimsa

            Championing democracy?!! 3 out of 4 of the electorate are not represented. Democracy in Britain is a mirage.

          • Jack_H

            Yes they are,our electoral system was tested at referendum and approved by the electorate.

          • Ahimsa

            No it wasn’t, the referendum put forward the Alternative Voting system which was rejected. We need a proper debate about our voting system so that a properly democracy which is truly representative can be established. FPTP which means you can govern with only 25% of the vote is bollocks.

          • Jack_H

            Never the less people were offered a choice between a more promotional system ant FPTP and they chose FPTP.

  • willybach

    Yes, globalisation (and technological change), which has given consumers lots of cheap stuff from abroad has been hard on many UK industries and unskilled workers. But that competition has come particularly from India and the Far East, not from the EU. And most immigrants come from outside the EU. So I am bewildered as to how leaving the EU for the wider world is going to solve the problems created by globalisation, or immigration, or the lack of skills of the predominantly white working class – and the depressed seaside resorts.

    • Bendys

      Because the EU gives the orders. They assign quotas of immigrants to each country, and then penalize them if they don’t obey. Very “democratic”.

    • Jack_H

      Because to have controls on immigration and only allow in those who have skills that we need we protect the poorest in our societies from abundant cheap labour from the third world and eastern Europe.That is why countries like Canada and Australia have been so much more successful and fairer than our own country.The prosperity is more evenly spread.Incidently the bulk of economic growth in the last 40 years has been in the Tiger economies of Asia,they all have incredibly strict rules on immigration and citizenship,many(Japan,South Korea and China)have no legal route to obtain citizenship.How have they attained such huge wealth if immigration is so important and inevitable?

  • stickywicket

    Nationalism, for all its shortcomings is the root of the ‘demos’ in democracy and why the European elites and the snobby Remainers are so fearful and contemptuous of democracy

    • mickey667

      Wrong. You need to read some history of democracy

  • mickey667

    I agree with your identification of these white working class areas. But why the suddent interest?

    The rust belt already exists. Travel up the East Coast from Essex to Newcastle, or traverse the country through south yorkshire and into Wales. Its here. It was created by catastrophic and ideologically driven de-industrialisation and embrace of globalisation with no rules.

    Beginning in the 1980s,continuing under Tory and Labour alike, people like you are now trying to utilise the animosity felt in these areas for your own political ends. People won;t fall for it. You don’t really care and you’ve not cared about these areas before, so why now? I wonder.

    Shame on you.

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