Rod Liddle

Even fruitcakes and fascists are more popular than the flaccid centre

Norbert Hofer, Alexander Van der Bellen, Bernie Sanders and Donald Trump are all part of the same phenomenon

28 May 2016

9:00 AM

28 May 2016

9:00 AM

A depression has settled on the Liddle household ever since Norbert Hofer narrowly failed in his bid to become the president of Austria. I like a man who keeps a Glock pistol in his jacket pocket, and there is something noble in the cut of his jib. Norbert was thwarted by the voters of Red Vienna and the usual fraudulent postal ballots, most of which will have come from immigrants, as happens time and again in this country. So he lost. Instead the Austrians are saddled with a lunatic, Alexander Van der Bellen, a hand-wringing Green halfwit representing what George Orwell was habituated to call the ‘pansy left’.

Interestingly, both of the two leading candidates for the job of president seem to loathe Austria and wish for it to be abolished. Van der Bellen’s party once distributed posters bearing the witty and profound statement: ‘If you like Austria you must be shit.’ He is an opponent of the nation state per se and would be delighted to see the Austrians ruled from Brussels. But then there’s Norbert, who hankers after the sort of Greater Germany which once commended itself to the fiery but controversial late Austrian politician Adolf Hitler. Norbert has no objection to Austria being ruled from Berlin and even wore one of those little blue cornflowers which Austrian Nazis used to wear. I am not sure what it says about the psychological state of a country’s population when the vast majority vote for two candidates who long for the country to not exist. Fair enough if it were Luxembourg, or Somalia, but Austria is full of likeable, sensible people and has done fairly well for itself since Stalin, rather surprisingly, gave it up.

The press and the BBC were of course aghast when it seemed that Norbert had it in the bag. They even forgot about Trump for a moment (ironically at the very moment he swung ahead of the hapless, frozen-faced Clinton in the opinion polls). Was this, the commentators intoned darkly, a case of the Austrians reverting to type? There were pictures of the aforementioned Hitler — every political debate these days needs a quick squirt of Adolf, no matter what the subject. When the fraudulent postal votes were counted and Norbert was deemed the loser, the Guardian began its commentary with the word ‘Phew!’ But then worried that Norbert’s Freedom party, which is ahead in the polls, might well win the chancellory two years from now.

Worry no more, you writhing pinkoes. If the Freedom party does indeed win then it will be subjected to the same sort of fascist interference from Strasbourg and Brussels which is now being inflicted on the poor Poles, who dared to elect a government which was mildly socially conservative and (ironically, you might argue) not hugely impressed by the influx of immigrants. The ruling Polish Law and Justice Party has effectively been ruled illegal by the European Commission; it is quite possible that Poland will have its EU voting rights curtailed and its money cut. The EU had been half-minded to launch similar proceedings against Viktor Orban’s somewhat right-of-centre government in Hungary, but didn’t quite dare to do so. But then this is what happens when the population of a sovereign state feels it has had enough of the corporate liberal claptrap foisted upon it by the European Union.

If the Front National ever wins in France you can expect the same patently undemocratic bullying to occur. The EU cannot stand diversity of opinion. It cannot stand the views of many — perhaps a majority — of its citizens. This, more than anything else, is the reason for the UK to vote Leave next month, despite the almost certain nuclear armageddon, melting of the polar icecaps and plagues of locusts that Cameron and Osborne assure us will transpire. Oh, and Vladimir Putin will be happy. A bit like the Hitler stuff, making Vlad happy is seen as the sort of clinching argument in almost all political debates at the moment. Don’t vote Leave — it will make Vlad happy. Poland, get in line — you’re making Vlad happy.

Truth be told, I’m not absolutely convinced that Norbert is the kind of chap I’d like to see running any country, and my guess is that nor would most of the people who voted for him. But they did so because he was the only candidate prepared to stand up for values which an enormous proportion of the Austrian population — probably more than half — believe in: social conservatism and a curb on immigration. And Herr Van der Bellen, like Bernie Sanders in the USA and Jeremy Corbyn over here, and Syriza in Greece and Podemos in Spain, represents another form of populism — i.e. left-wing policies with which a large tranche of the voters instinctively agree. Greater equality, more spending on infrastructure, and so on.

My guess is that in the USA quite a lot of ordinary voters who are tempted to go for Trump would also be attracted by a lot of what Bernie Sanders has to offer (and vice versa) — but have no time at all for Hillary Clinton or Marco Rubio. Across Europe and also across the USA, the flaccid centre — liberal and yet authoritarian, prone to spouting platitudinous drivel, utterly estranged from the electorate — is in retreat. In France, those two forms of populism are very nearly united in the statist and redistributionist Front National. Only the party’s (arguably) former, loathsome anti-Semitism prevents it from sweeping all before it.

Incidentally, this is not just any old column. It is a column written by a graduate of the London School of Economics and Political Science. In future I think I should make this point every time I write anything, because of the immense pride I feel in my alma mater. Especially so now that it has awarded the actress Angelina Jolie an honorary professorship in Rights for Women, or some such abject bilge.

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Show comments
  • Patrick

    And just the other day Operation Black Vote ( who knew ethnic minorities needed more encouragement to vote, when at least 150% of the Muslims get to vote by post each election) were allowed to use a racist stereotype of a honkie on one of their posters. Politics and relations between different ethnic groups around the west are becoming more extreme each year. Thanks Blair, Cameroon, Merkel, Brown, Holland etc for turning the west into the Balkans with nuclear weapons.

    • Mary

      Multiculturalism = sectarianism

      • MikeF

        Diversity = conformity
        Equality = preference

      • Birtles

        Multiculturalism = multiracism.

        • E.I.Cronin

          Multiculturalism = Multi-confrontational.

          Love that Generation Identitaire slogan.

          • Marvin

            Leads to Multifraudism!

          • E.I.Cronin

            Yes! The permutations/aberrations are endless.

    • Andrew Cole

      It was clearly a poster using the “everybody is equal” mantra to hide behind while clearly trying to say You must vote to stop these right wing Doc Marten racist NF skinheads winning.

    • jennybloggs

      Postal votes should be abolished.

      • licjjs

        Absolutely right. They make a travesty of the democratic system. Who checks that they tally with the number of people actually eligible to vote and registered to do so?

      • davidblameron

        unfortunately, in the modern day of travel, too many voters are absent from their constituency on polling day ; in the 1960s when I was nearly always away serving in HM, I would have to nominate a ‘proxy’, to vote on one’s behalf usually expected to be a close relative, same as if a voter was in hospital or confined to the house ; there was only ‘proxy’ voting, no postal.

        • Graham Pearson

          Proxy voting in France (no postal).

          • davidblameron

            Our Gaullic friends do get some things right.

        • Marvin

          Proxy voting will be just as fraudulent as postal voting, unless we find a genuine way to find out who is in the country, how many, illegal or legal, the correct numbers in every household, and ID cards for everyone paid for by the foreign aid waste.

          • davidblameron

            it won’t affect the stay/LEAVE vote though

  • Jack_H

    It is very peculiar that a bunch of people who howl like a Shithouse Mary over the human rights of migrants,LGBT,women and every other special interest group are remaining curiously silent over the political ramifications of staying in the EU.I had always been under the impression that the right to choose your government and hold it accountable was quite high on the list of Human Rights……just below the right to life……..most treaties on Human Rights seem to agree.Sadly we are being barraged by endless stories about mobile phone roaming charges,Easy Jet and Ryan Air(Flown with both,very unpleasant)The issue of sovereignty is just not addressed,it’s almost as if they are afraid of it being discussed.Anyone curious about it should read Tony Benn’s 1975 letter,published in this magazine,for a very clear explanation of what the EU is.Snobbish elites who feel they should be able to override election results do not have the weight of History behind them

    • Callan

      Also have a look at Enoch Powell’s interview by Robin Day as the votes in the 1975 referendum were being counted ( it is on YouTube). His arguments are as valid today as they were then.

  • Cyril Sneer

    The Austrian postal vote thing was a blatant stitch up.

    Democracy in the western world is diminishing by the day.

    • D J

      In a closely fought election about 80% of the last 1/4 million went to van der Bellen.
      It is possible that it was an ill-organised Viennese district, but vote rigging looks more likely.
      At what point do the BBC and Guardian stop condoning corruption in elections when their chosen candidate looks likely to lose?

  • Ingmar Blessing

    Hofer got 80% of all workers and men. The rest voted the system, whereas the system voters went to the booth much more often.

    What do men&workers do all day long?
    – driving (delivery)trucks and buses
    – repairing streets and buildings
    – picking up litter
    – keeping the sewers running
    – protecting the country as policemen or soldiers

    Question: What happens, when they collectively decide not to go to work for one day? One week?

    Answer: The right wingers in Austria have now the potential for an open revolution.

  • Dr Bock

    Re: rejection of left-liberalism by voters, have a butchers at the wikipedia page pertaining to the next Dutch general election scheduled for next year, and not just the fact that the polling suggests Geert Wilders is on course to win, with other socially conservative parties doing pretty well, but it suggests that the social democrats are going to get creamed, their worst result since at least the second world war, if not ever.

    • Cyril Sneer

      Yep well spotted. Here is the link to the Wiki article –

      • Dr Bock

        A big if, as things could change in nine or so months, but what happens if Wilders does end up PM of the Netherlands, are we still going to ban a democratically elected leader from coming here?

        • RobertRetyred

          We might get a chance to see what happens with Trump, if Cameron is still around 🙂

          • Dr Bock

            No way any British PM is going to refuse to see the US president, doesn’t make much sense pissing off the world’s most powerful man; remember, the only successful use of sanctions in history was the US’ against us over Suez.

  • Andrew Cole

    Rod there are far too many intellectual yet stupid people that will read your column and be screaming racist bigot. You really should learn not to do the tongue firmly in cheek stuff as people will be posting up selected statements proclaiming that you are strung up for being anti-whateverist.

    • Dr Bock

      You can’t just be whateverist!

      • Andrew Cole

        By “whateverist” I mean whatever the lefties have decided to call people today. Most have decided to stop calling beople racist and bigot at the moment and call them something else instead. They still mean the same but think using a different “ism” stops the public from calling them out.

        • Dr Bock

          I was joking. You made a good point.

          • Andrew Cole

            I guessed you were but I suppose I should have used [whatever] ist

  • Miss Floribunda Rose

    Norbert has nice eyes, a nice smile and a very pleasant and trustworthy face. Alexander looks like Jeremy’s ugly sister and has something rather Catweaselish about him, if I may say so. Consequently, if I were an Austrian Norbert would most certainly be getting MY vote. Just sayin’…….

  • James Chilton

    The EU cannot stand diversity of opinion.

    The Eurocrats won’t rest until they’ve made it a criminal offence to privately hold, let alone express in public, any conservative opinion. Opposition to their tyrannical schemes is evidence of “far right extremism”.

  • Malcolm Stevas

    On Tuesday night, BBC 2’s Newsnight – or its female presenter, forget her name, rarely watch – said of Austria that it was the first time Austria had nearly experienced a President from what she called the “far right” since 1945, the most overt attempt I have heard to date to associate the Austrian Freedom Party with the Nazis. I am not naive about the bias of much of the MSM but I found this genuinely shocking.

    • The_Missing_Think

      “I am not naive about the bias of much of the MSM but I found this genuinely shocking.”

      Yes, very shocking, if only she’d made the comparison with British Nationalist (BNP)… that would have been fine, as I always do that type of cheap dirty, fact-free, bigot projection based smeaing all the time myself, as it’s the truth, and I know it’s the truth, because whatshername of Newsnight told me the BNP are waythist… so it must be true.

      You are a moron Stevas.

      • Malcolm Stevas

        In sterculino plurimum gallus potest

        • The_Missing_Think

          Hiding a juvenile sandpit response to the most serious political issue going in a foreign language.

          Not very English.

          Not very brave.

          And not clever.

          Can’t take the truth can you Stevas?

          You, and whatshername of Newsnight, are shoulder to shoulder in lockstep, when it’s the ‘1930s’, ‘waythist BNP’.

          Enjoy your sweet ‘anti-waythist’ BBC hamony… ‘right-winger(s)’.

          • Malcolm Stevas

            You’re spraying spittle again, in your hysterical determination to misunderstand practically everything. Try standing still and thinking a bit, instead of goose-stepping while giving the old right arm salute and singing the Horst -Wessel-Lied all at the same time.

          • The_Missing_Think

            Not true, I’ve caught you out again, you’re a nimby Nationalist.

            In a word, a fake, the same as the Tory voting parrot.

            “… istead of goose-stepping while giving the old right arm salute and singing the Horst -Wessel-Lied all at the same time.”… said whatshername from Newsnight scathingly, to the BNP pleb oink.

            Thanks for dropping your mask.

          • Malcolm Stevas

            Hah! “Oink” is rather better than “oik” in your case, though I dare say the nuances are lost on you. It’s not so much distaste for the BNP, old chap, as my reluctance to vote for any Party with supporters like you…

          • The_Missing_Think

            Yes, that’s right… white Nationalist, (the BNP), are ‘waythist oinks from the estate’, just as the BBC taught you to thnk.

            How’s that working out chum?

            Got the big picture yet?

            As stated, like the parrot, you talk the talk, but, when ballot box tested, you vote to block white Nationalist, just as the BBC told you to, and just as the Austrian ‘decent non-racists’, have just voted.

            You are sighing “Phew” in harmony with The Guardian, every time you snipe anti-white, (anti-BNP), comments.

            Keep digging moron(s).

  • DaveM95

    For all the people alleging fraud with the voting cards: I can assure you that it was impossible because in the 117 Bezirkswahlbehörden where the cards were counted you always had 2 people from the FPÖ participating. And the reason he got 61,7% was simply because the majority of those voting cards were from cities which VdB overwhelmingly won.

    • ossettian

      How did Austrian Austrians vote?

      • DaveM95

        How can you become more Austrian than Austrian?

        • Malcolm Stevas

          You probably know the answer to that: indigenous ethnic Austrians, not Afro-Asian aliens.

          • DaveM95

            You would be hard pressed to find any Austrian having not at least some ancestors coming from outside the Austrian territory. My father came here with his parents from Poland when he was 12, but I am white and have blue eyes so I probably count as Austrian Austrian.
            I cant tell you how many Austrian Austrians voted for Hofer or Vdb because this group doesnt really exist but when it comes to immigrants from the Balkans or Turkey-I would guess that most of them (except for Serbians because they are christian orthodox and that makes Strache like them) voted for VdB.

        • ossettian

          Austrian Austrian as compared to Turkish Austrian, Moroccan Austrian, Albanian Austrian und so weiter.

    • antoncheckout

      Sorry, your ‘assurance’ is worthless. You claim to be Austrian, but you seem to have no idea what’s being reported in the Vienna press. Just to bring you up to speed:
      OSCE has reported serious voting irregularities, particularly in the postal voting. Following its direct observations and report to the prosecutor, the Austrian Innenministerium has already started criminal prosecutions in five districts, including Carinthia and Steiermark. The town of Waidhofen/Ybbs registered a truly Stalinist turnout of 146.9%.
      The presidential elections ‘may be re-run’ in consequence. That is still open. It is possible that this election’s invalid votes would be rejected, then Hofer wins outright.
      So Van der Bellen shouldn’t start ordering any new wallpaper for the Hofburg just yet.

      • E.I.Cronin

        This is truly excellent news. I tried your link but couldn’t find an English translation. With any luck the dirty fingerprints on all the anomalies will be identified as belonging to Brussels.

      • DaveM95

        Ja ich bin Österreicher, Wiener genauer gesagt. I read those articles and if you did too than please tell me how earlier counting of postal votes also under the participation of FPÖ members while not according to the rules lead to fraud. The wrong turnout is simply some secretary putting in some wrong numbers. We had a government that included the FPÖ from 2000-2005 and 45% of all government officials voted for Hofer so if there really was any kind of voter fraud then we would probably hear from those people.

        • antoncheckout

          “The wrong turnout is simply some secretary putting in some wrong numbers.” Faule Ausrede. And the Austrian Innenminister doesn’t agree with you – the Ministry is pursuing criminal investigations for fraud in five electoral districts. Sobotka will have to make an interim statement on Monday. That should be interesting. And if he doesn’t decide to rerun the election in those five districts, anybody (e.g. the FPÖ) still has the right to raise a challenge until June 8th.
          So the fat lady won’t be singing until then.

  • John Andrews

    Far left, far right, far middle, I’m not bothered: providing candidates are anti-EU I will vote for the one with the best chance of being elected.

  • Father Todd Unctious

    Lidl is becoming such a caricature of himself. He now says he likes people who carry guns, thinks postal voters are all corrupt immigrants and admires the wearing of blue cornflowers. If you like Lidl you are a bit s*it.

    • Lighthouse25

      If you support Alexander Van der Bellen and the corruption of Austrian democracy which was the stitched-up election result, you’re more than a bit s#it sunshine, you’re a fascist of the left.

      • antoncheckout

        Unfortunately for the left, the OSCE was present, and has identified several big irregularities – including 142% turnout in one district, and postal voting amomalies in others. Die Presse (Vienna) was today reporting that the presidential election’s result is now so questionable that it may have to be re-run.

        • bionde

          Austria obviously has a similar sysemt to Tower Hamlets. I cringe at the thought of what will happen with the postal vote in the referendum. How did UK get so corrupt?

        • gunnerbear

          A mere 142% turnout – amateurs – they should get Bob Mugabe in as a consultant….he’ll fix it for ’em. Failing that I think Lutfur Rahman could be available……

      • Birtles

        ‘Fr. Unctious’ might have made the more obvious link between ‘Bellen’ and ‘Bellend’.

    • polidorisghost

      Lidl is a supermarket chain
      In what way is Liddle caricaturing himself?

    • antoncheckout

      “admires the wearing of blue cornflowers”
      Nope, Rod clearly implies the opposite. Nor does he say that postal vote fraud is ‘all’ from immigrants. He said ‘most’ postal vote fraud is. As for “I like a man who keeps a Glock pistol in his jacket pocket” – comedic irony is obviously wasted on some readers.

    • polidorisghost

      Puns are common in English, Todd and can be used to great effect, as in “Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious summer by this sun of York”. Likening Lidl with Liddle however serves no humorous, rhetorical, satirical, or dramatic purpose.

    • Richard

      It might help if you remembered that “Lidl” is pronounced “Leedle” and “Liddle”, well, “Liddle”.

  • Ivan Ewan

    Speaking of the “flaccid centre”, let’s not forget that they are all too happy to cozy up to fascism, as long as it’s the right sort. Have a read of this surprisingly ballsy Telegraph article about Mother Theresa May’s outpourings of support for Shariah law:

    • Foxy Loxy

      They also seem to be happy to cozy up to the fascists who led the putsch in the Ukraine.

  • antoncheckout

    “Norbert has no objection to Austria being ruled from Berlin and even wore one of those little blue cornflowers which Austrian Nazis used to wear.”
    Rod, with respect, you have this the wrong way round. The Guardian seems to be the muck-spreader here, and they cite as evidence for his pan-Germanism and ‘secret desire to re-unite with Germany’ the fact that, erm, Hofer has repeatedly denied it.
    Hofer is an Austrian nationalist, so he naturally emphasises the German-language and German-cultural essence of Austria – Deutsch-Oesterreich was the traditional name for the country without Hungary and the rest of the Empire, and the Emperor was the ‘German-Austrian Kaiser’.
    But for all natural cultural sympathies with other Germans across the border, Hofer would be as likely to want to have Austria ruled by the wishy-washy ‘Willkommen-Kultur’ soft-socialist-governed Germany of Merkel and Gabriel, as he would be to see Vienna occupied by Da-esh.

    • Foxy Loxy

      Also, Rod seems to forget that Hitler was Austrian – and as the Nazis were, effectively, a Hitler cult, it could be said that Austria were ruling Germany at that time.

      • Bertie

        Errrrrrrr I don’t think he did..

        In his second paragraph he refers to the fiery Austrian politician, Adolf Hitler

        Attention span somewhat lacking or perhaps a case of speed reading and you missed this first time around.

        • Foxy Loxy

          I did read it quickly, but the point is that an Austrian was ‘ruling’ Germany.

          But isn’t it amazing that some people can still inject an insult into a comment in response to something which was pretty harmless.

          Does your condition make it hard for you to make friends? Probably.

  • E.I.Cronin

    Speaking of brave, sensible Poland – check out this clip of a Polish nationalist dicing up Eurocrats for breakfast with cool, ruthless logic and fearless confidence. This outstanding woman should be in Parliament not journalism. Note too her involuntary recoiling when the creepy minion of Merkel slithers up to her with an attempt at blackmail. She articulates the nationalist viewpoint with clarity and simplicity.

    ps hopefully Poland can resist Brussels until Trump is elected and he can loan them so they can bail out of the morass.

    • Birtles

      This is an amazing clip. The Polish woman – Alexsandra Rybinska – is the most formidable commentator I’ve ever seen on the TV. Absolutely first class.

      • E.I.Cronin

        Formidable is the word! We need people like her. I haven’t heard Hofer speak as English is my only language – but imagine the response a nationalist leader with Alexsandra’s deadly accuracy and intelligence would get from the public. Hopefully the FPO have got similar people lined up for the main battle.

        • Michael H Kenyon

          Problem is, the world has lost it’s attention span, and can’t read or follow sustained arguments when they want PC Buzzfeed soundbites. Brains don’t win these arguments, and barring The Lady, i’m not sure they ever have in the UK. No wonder she was hated by the upper and lower classes.

          • E.I.Cronin

            Agreed, the shrinking attention spans are hard to miss. I only joined FB a few months ago after sustained pressure from friends and noticed the Labour/Greens bloc never watch or comment on videos unless they’re about wildlife or nature. And their political posters are blatantly emotional and highly simplistic – SJW’s are good and kind. Right Wingers are nasty, nasty, nasty and mean.

            BUT… 2 can play at this game! I’m still in process of designing a Nationalist blog that will distribute conservative Buzzfeed. Provocative headlines, shocking imagery and blatantly emotional. It’s taking me ages but it’s time they got a taste of their own medicine. Links to rational and informative sources will be included for those whose curiosity is piqued. And these posters will be for people to download, distribute and mail anonymously.

          • If you got enough patience read about prevalence of ADHD. It is not even Western in general, it is actually purely Anglo-Saxon cultural effect linked to habitual child neglect and under stimulation in early development age. Not in anyway universal issue. Other cultures are just fine. The biggest impact of ADHD in grown ups is replacement of decisions based on analyses of actual situation by imitatatory decisions. If this trend continues, the failures of decision making in this part of the world will become systemic. Witch hunt and lynchings instead of justice, cave mentality of primal hatred instead of freedom of beliefs. Trauma causes degradation. One questions western culture never asked – what it does to us? Time to think it over and clear the cultural mess.

    • Roger Hudson

      The first time psephologists have seen a postal vote swinging to the left, very fishy.
      If EU fanboys stick to their superstate plans then the EU is going to blow up in their face, they just don’t understand ‘nations’ or ‘peoples’ so they deserve to be imprisoned in their Brussels bunker.

      • E.I.Cronin

        Exactly, and they just can’t grasp the more extreme measures they’re trying to introduce to force compliance is just going to speed up the disintegration.

      • Emailtimw

        what a terrible lifetime of misunderstanding

  • Norton Folgate

    Ah, Rod. I think this sort of thing might be part of the problem:

  • antoncheckout

    After analyzing the vote they’ve discovered that 86% of the working class voters of Austria voted for Hofer for President. And that 48% of the largely middle-class voters who plumped for Van der Bellen didn’t really want to vote for him, but just did so to prevent Hofer from being elected.
    So (given that the vote was 50-50) now they have a President unwanted by 74% of the electorate, and 86% of the working-classes, a President largely elected by the left-leaning middle-classes in the cities and rejected by the countryside.
    And the turn-out was 72.75% – not bad.

    • What is “working class”? You use last century terminology in a search for last century solutions.

  • Neil Saunders

    The problem about the so-called “Centre” is that it is not by any sane standards moderate but, rather, the point of convergence (and coalescence) of two unpalatable extremes: neoliberalism in the economic sphere (combined with a hawkish neoconservative foreign-policy doctrine of perpetual war abroad and societal strife at home), and political correctness (aka identity politics or Cultural Marxism) in the sociocultural sphere.

    • Leon Wolfeson

      You’re a centralist by your views? My my.

      • Neil Saunders

        Where did I say that, Leon? Cut and paste the exact quotation, if you can find it.

        • Leon Wolfeson

          It fits your expressed views.

          • Neil Saunders

            In other words, I didn’t say it, and you’re just making things up, Leon.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            “In other words”

            In your lies, yes, as you deny your posts, American.
            I am not writing your posts, you are.

          • Neil Saunders

            I’ve come to the conclusion that you’re stark staring bonkers, Leon.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            So you spew on, foreigner, in your far right, totalitarian, social darwinist agenda that British people like me are insane.

          • Neil Saunders

            No, just you, Leon.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Ah, late unbelievable excuses given your prior PC, foreigner.

    • Emailtimw

      so centrism is extreme? I think that is incorrect….by definition.

      • Neil Saunders

        Then you’re a literal-minded fool who imagines that words always mean what their utterers or writers want them to appear to mean.

        • Emailtimw

          probably too early in our relationship for insults. do you mean that there’s some kind of hidden agenda amongst people who use the word “centre” with regard to politics? they want the word to appear to mean something, when in fact it means something else? is this an extremism based on wordplay?
          I don’t agree that centrism in europe is right wing or extreme economically or in terms of war and peace. nor do I think political correctness is left wing, although it is derived from Marxism.
          if you are speaking of usa, I would be much closer to agreeing with you. but I would not entirely agree.

          • Neil Saunders

            We don’t have a relationship and I’m not insulting you, merely describing you on the basis of your previous remark.

            Yes, I do think that the centre has been redefined misleadingly (and mischievously). I share your reservations about the applicability of the terms “left” and “right” in present-day debates about politics, but they are the terms that we have inherited and are still in wide use.

  • gillardgone

    But it was not the fruitcakes and loons that got us the referendum it was UKIP and Nigel Forage.

    • Emailtimw

      my definition of fruitcake is broader than yours

  • Jacobi

    The point about the near win of Hoffer to a post which did not have political power is that a warning signal has been sent to the powers that be in Austria and in Europe that Europeans have had enough of Muslim immigration.

    All this talk of Fascism is irrelevant an just an inevitable result of Godwin’s Law.

    The EU Parliament, Commission and Council, and Merkel, will have got the message.

    Personally, I will vote to stay in because when it come to the bit, the Bulgars, the Hungars, (some call them Magyars), Slovaks, Czechs, Austrians, and indeed the Poles, above all the Poles, will not allow it.

    • antoncheckout

      I’m afraid Merkel – a key player – has certainly not got the message. She has just given an interview in which declared she ‘stands behind her decision to open the borders in 2015 and would do it again‘.
      And she is still insisting on the forced redistribution of migrants to other EU countries. And the resisting Eastern Europeans cannot vote against it, as the veto in that area has been removed. And the QMV blocking requirement has been altered (Nov. 2014) before anyone realizing it had happened.

      So you might want to reconsider your voting intentions. 🙂

      • Jacobi

        I take your point. We are in trouble, deep trouble, either way.
        I still place my faith now in the East Europeans. I hope they will find away.
        The EU, that is Schengen is finished anyway.
        As for non-EU immigration ( Bangladesh Pakistan etc. ) in a casual local drive today I passed five Muslim women all dressed up and with children, something here where even three years ago one would have been a rarity.

        • They found the way. SS is marching all over Baltics, Poland and Ukraine. Ww2 red arty burials and monument destroyed. They do not even have immigrants. They will just eat each other. Poland and Romania already got lists of Ukranian territories they wish to grab. How is that saving anything?

          • Jacobi

            Yes, but who are the SS as you rather inappropriately use the term?

            America, NATO, who contrary to an agreement with the collapsing Soviet Union not to extend NATO into the Baltic, did just that in April 2004 so NATO now comes up to the very borders of Baltic Russia and actually encloses a part of it?.
            Now if I were a Russian, which I am not, I would be very peeved indeed at the behaviour of USA/NATO and would be at least putting my foot down and saying no further!

            All countries both East and West have residual claims. For instance Belgium has a part of Germany, and of the Duchy of Luxembourg. I have no doubt this is true of Poland and others. But one real problem in Eurasia is now that inappropriate military organisation, NATO, which remember includes Turkey and its 70 million Muslims.

          • I got no problem with Muslims or NATO, I got a problem with aggressive xenophobic mentality in anybody who exhibit it. faith, borders or military alliances matter very little unless there is an intend to harm. people like you are infected with hatred. Ethnic Russians had no problem with living in Ukraine, till the western coup turned it into anti-Russian war-nest. can they harm Russians over the border? no they cannot. look at the map. all they can is to turn own country apart for decades as hate always does. You think you hate immigrants, these people abroad, but you hate your own local born neighbors. how self destructive it is and how little love for own country one should have destroying it from within, just because you want everybody to look and think alike.

          • Jacobi

            Oh you are so nice anette. No hatred in you at all!
            Sadly people like you are in for the worst shock!

          • I am not for any shock. There is a type of nativity born out of lack experience and submissive powerlessness. And there is a type of naivity fuelled by understanding that being naive is the only real way to change things for better. Naivity of the vision how wonderful life could be if we all are true to our conscience. Amount of power it gives is overwelming because it relays on the best in each and everybody. Real love is only possible to all around us without exemption. The rest is dependence, possession, jealousy, use of others as vehicles to success. Real freedom is only possible among kind people, people who wish us well and care to know what we think. The rest is generational trauma, control and joy of inflicting pain on others. That ideal world is not possible. But all elements of it exist around us and in us. we just need the amount of mature naivity to reach the critical mass to get out of this cycle of violence.

        • Joe Long

          Orban’s going to have a referendum on this grotesque quota imposition in the autumn.

          The other East Europeans will do the same; with strong anti-Islamist movements in France and Holland, opinion turning against Merkel in Germany

          this is an insurgency with a long way to go.

      • Merkel is in power longer than Putin. She got completely delusional.

      • Joe Long

        She’s got a lot to answer for

        “Police in Germany are investigating reports of dozens of sexual assaults against women at a music festival using tactics that appear to be a smaller scale repeat of the New Year attacks in Cologne.

        So far 26 women have come forward to say they were assaulted at the Schlossgrabenfest festival in the city of Darmstadt, south of Frankfurt, on Saturday, and 14 have made formal criminal complaints.”

  • Emailtimw

    liddle seems to think that the rise of Nazism is a bit of a laugh. facism and racism test my sense of humour beyond its limit

    • It is not in any way a surprise to a careful observer. Europeans never over lived their colonial pride and never won the ww2 in their heads being still full of white supremacy bullstuff. If a change into mentality of equality cannot come to their heads evolutionarily, a drastic format is unavoidable. In 1940s the opposing force was internationalist communists. That ideology was successfully defeated by the western consumerism. Now the opposition will be own multiple minorities and the multicultural models of coexistence based on equality, like Eurasian or old Middle Eastern ones.

      If we want a peaceful change in Europe it is time to realise, the demand for “integration” in its current format is a simple cultural cleansing. The real integration is not when new comer is forced to accept the whole package of “western values” and drop own values all together. The real integration is when each party offers its best to the pool and agree what set of joint best makes them better together. True respect to others is needed and true merit based culture. Failed to move that way? Back to prime cave racism, cultural regress centuries back.

  • antoncheckout

    Btw, news breaking in Vienna (15.29 CET) that 46,800 postal votes for the presidential election have been found to be invalid.
    Van der Bellen’s majority was only 30,863. So this could become very interesting – there may be a legal challenge within the next seven days.

    • Joe Long

      I wish I could read that, but no doubt I will be able to pick it up on the Guardian site shortly

  • Sir Johnny Foreigner

    The flaccid centre lol

  • Give our God Immortal Praise

    Cameron imposed sick in the head gay so-called marriage and whichever way you look at it such bizarro stuff is very extreme, certainly not centrist or flaccid or whatever.