Rod Liddle

On migration, my adversary Simon Schama doesn’t even have an argument

But he has helped me complete my collection of angry TV historians

24 October 2015

9:00 AM

24 October 2015

9:00 AM

Sooner or later, in this trade, one runs out of television historians to antagonise. I am doggedly working my way through the pack — and I don’t think any of the really big ones are left. I began by annoying Mary Beard and then swiftly moved on to David Starkey. Some time passed but eventually I found an opportunity to irritate Simon Schama, on BBC’s Question Time last week. He got very angry and his hands started waving all over the place. Someone on a social media site said he looked like a Thunder-birds puppet controlled by a person with Parkinson’s disease, which is a little cruel, I suppose. Simon ended a splenetic diatribe by calling me ‘suburban’, which raised a few eyebrows and indeed the accusation of snobbery. I do not mind being called suburban, even if I have never lived in the suburbs and I am being called it by someone who actually does (Westchester, in New York State, since you asked). There are many worse things you can call a chap.

As it happens, I enjoy the television programmes through which all three of these luminaries dispense their expertise, especially Mrs Beard’s. I’ve even ordered her new book about the Romans, and I would add that she is excellent company when not spouting blithe bien-pensant drivel about immigration. That was the sort of area which got me into trouble with Mr Schama, who easily out-drivelled Mary. Talking about the ‘refugee’ crisis, the art historian divested himself of a stream of emotionally incontinent non-sequiturs — and it was when I pointed this out that he became incandescent with pique.

The problem, as I saw it, was that Simon had simply not made any sense at all. It seemed to be sufficient to say that these people — the migrants — were ‘human beings’ and that feeling kindly disposed towards them was sufficient, in itself, to solve what many fear is the gravest crisis we have faced since the second world war. Simon — and the others who argue likewise (although technically it is not an argument because they advance no course of action) — insists that our government should ‘do more’. But what precisely, he and the others do not say.

This is not a failing confined to famous television personalities, of course, although as a breed they seem particularly prone to its inanities. What I realised after that edition of Question Time is that the facts, the practicalities, the realities of the situation, do not matter one jot. There is a small minority of British opinion — the polls suggest that the overwhelming majority of the population, suburban scum that they are, do not wish to see more migrants entering the country — which is absolutely impervious to the facts which show that letting more people in the country will make things worse both for them and for us. And clearly anyone who doesn’t agree is unaware that the migrants are ‘human beings’ and is thus a borderline psychopath, as well as being suburban. And yet ask them for a course of action and none is forthcoming.


But it is the imperviousness to reason that is most striking — and which convinces me that in some strange way they are articulating this ectoplasmic rubbish (we must ‘do more’!) in order to make themselves feel better, without any thought of the consequences for either the migrants or our country.

Eight months ago everybody was very worried about the number of migrants drowning in the Mediterranean sea, en route to western Europe in flimsy boats. The very voluble minority started screaming: we must do more! Send more boats! It was clear to me then — and to many others — that this would only exacerbate the problem, for the migrants and for us. More would drown because many more would set sail, expecting to be picked up. A more sensible solution — to deny access and deport any migrants arriving illegally by sea — had already been tried, and had worked, in Australia.

But we listened to the clamorous minority, despite their lack of reason and logic — and many more migrants have drowned as a consequence. We did the wrong thing. Back then, the lefties insisted that the death of every waterlogged migrant was on the hands of the British government. It wasn’t then — but there is a case for saying that they are now. That all those who set sail because they expect to be picked up, but drown instead, are the victims of western governments which did the wrong thing for supposedly the right reasons.

And again, the imperviousness to reason. A largely Muslim charity recently reviewed the work its people had been doing to relieve the misery and squalor on the Sangatte refugee camp in Calais. A worker with the Human Relief Foundation visited the notorious ‘Jungle’ encampment and concluded, with some alarm, that 97 per cent were economic migrants rather than refugees. Further, they were almost exclusively fit young men who were not fleeing danger at all and were not in the least desperate.

An executive added: ‘I thought they had a valid reason [to be there]. They do not have a valid reason.’ The charity immediately curtailed its relief efforts. But present these facts to those who simply scream ‘Let them in!’ and ‘We must do more!’ and it makes not the slightest difference to their point of view; it washes over them without leaving so much as a trace. Because the migrants want to come here, they must be allowed in — regardless of the effect on the poor in our country, or on all those who wish to migrate here and are following the proper channels. So, as I say — this makes me suspect that the issue is more about them than about the migrants. It is virtue signalling, once again.

Still, I suppose I should stop being on the wrong side of history, or the wrong side of TV historians, at any rate. The weathermen are next on my list.

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Show comments
  • I was hoping for a list of angry TV historians starting with AJP Taylor and Trevor-Roper but got nothing more than another article about migration.

    • Sean Grainger

      AJPT never furrowed his brow let alone got angry and TR was even thicker than Schama revealed himself to be.

      • Richard Turnbull

        Says the undoubtedly brilliant anonymous hack who has never seen a line in Simon Schama’s CITIZENS: A CHRONICLE OF THE FRENCH REVOLUTION (Knopf, 1989) he or she could not improve…c’est incroyable!

    • davidshort10

      Blame whoever the Spectator uses to write the headlines, which often signal wrong expectations. Andrew ‘Brillo Pad’ Neil. the Spectator’s boss, doesn’t like sub-editors and tried to get rid of all of them at The European (under his stewardship, the publication died). Real sub-editors review stories and create a headline that reflects the content. Don’t blame Liddle, blame Brillo.

      • Mike Paterson

        Crikey. I’d completely forgotten The European, perhaps unsurprisingly. They say never do business with a company with “euro” in its name, a bit like never doing business with a country with green in its flag.

      • MikeF

        They can also spell ‘eviscerates’ properly.

        • Clive

          To be fair to them I think they probably inherited that heading from YouTube or wherever the clip was

          I cannot become accustomed to Liddle’s use of ‘divested’. as in …the art historian divested himself of a stream of emotionally incontinent non-sequiturs ….

          I find it hard to imagine how you would invest in such abstractions

          • MikeF

            Very likely so. Rod is a Millwall fan – they are always saying things like ‘he needs to divest himself of the ball more quickly’.

          • Little Black Censored

            “Delivered” or “disburdened” would have been better.

  • outlawState

    I sensed the limitations of Simon Schama’s impartiality in his TV series on the Jews that I saw on iplayer. He seemed incapable of critiquing anyone (i.e. any Jews) with whom he shares a vested interest. That series was little more than a eulogy of the Jews, albeit it remained informative. He is in danger of being mistaken for a Jewish supremacist, who are fond of lecturing lesser mortals on how to behave,

    • nibs

      It wouldn’t be a mistake, for that’s what he is.

    • Yes – I started watching it, but the eulogising made me want to vomit, so I turned it off. Its funny how some people seem to get a massively better crack of the mythologising power of Hollywood and the western media than others, isn’t it? I generally despise conspiracy theories, but if you look at the names of the big wigs that run Hollywood and the Media, you will soon realise why this happens.

      • Richard Turnbull

        I see there’s the usual gaggle of gag-inducing crypto-antisemites on this thread — wandered off from Stormfront, did you?

        • ?REALLY? Stormfront? That would upset my parents no end since they both were in the armed forces during ww2… No – I despise them. Why is it that any criticism of a Jew or his behaviour leads to accusations of anti_Semitism from a dishonest minority of Jewish deflectors? I had a mate once who was a Jew. I’d count him as a good friend, but appearances decieved really and he took me in when he complained that accusations of inappropriate behaviour with his female pupils were because of anti-Semitism. I was very sympathetic to this, but later he was prosecuted and then my wife confided that he had sexually assaulted her in our kitchen while pretending to help her with the dishes after he’d had dinner at our house. Maybe she is an anti-Semite too, for objecting to having him grab her genitals at the kitchen sink…..

          • Richard Turnbull

            The Derpitude is strong in you, congratulations!

          • Ad hominem 2. Arguments Nil.

            You loose.

          • Richard Turnbull

            Your posts are raving lunacy; there’s absolutely zero substance to even rebut. Try reading FALLACY: THE COUNTERFEIT OF ARGUMENT by Fearnside and Holther or a similar text on logic and argumentation, you obstreperous and annoying peasant, and move on from there.

  • John Andrews

    Sharma behaved like a spoilt child, particularly with his gesticulations, and so far as he had an argument it was that giving kids what they want is good for them.
    Sharma says he wants a strong Jewish state and also a Palestinian state, but he would probably be happier if all the Arabs from the Eastern Mediterranean moved to Europe. That would solve all Israel’s problems.

  • Jack_H

    Excellent piece,Schama’s hypocrisy is hilarious,check this out;http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/this_week/5210018.stm

    Mr Schama clearly finds Israeli’s dropping napalm on civilians in the Lebanon a necessary action to secure ‘peace’

    He claimed that the Lebanese “hate’the Syrians,yet they are hosting more than a million and have established refugee camps with the UNHCR and as far as I know have not turned any away.To the immediate south is Israel,they appear to have turned an uncaring ‘Suburban’face to the crisis,the border they share with Syria remains one of the most heavily fortified on earth,they have taken in no refugees and have no intention of taking any…….does Mr Schama wail like a menopausal spinster about that or does he’understand’?

    The crux of your argument is entirely correct,no extra taxes will be raised to deal with the migrants,our social housing and welfare will just be stretched even thinner…….the poorest and most disadvantaged will pay the price for the Schama’s of this world to demonstrate how much they’care’

    Hypocritical buggers!

    • nibs

      Oddly, these Jewish intellectuals (Schama, Portes, all the French ones) are all in favour of immigration into our, Christian countries, but for some reason don’t demand the same of the country which claims their loyalties in the Middle East. No, Israel is allowed to operate a Jews-only immigration policy, plus of course the horrors meted out to the indigenous Arab population.

      Never understood that.

      • pedestrianblogger

        “The indigenous Arab population”? The Arabs are not indigenous to the Middle East but to Arabia and should be sent back.

        • Jack_H

          Nonsense.

          • Little Black Censored

            Gosh, that’s a compelling argument.

      • Damaris Tighe

        Israel does not operate a Jews-only immigration policy. Anyone can apply for permanent residence & citizenship. Israel has taken in several hundred thousand African migrants. As Israel is a relatively new nation state, & the only nation state of the Jews, it does give priority to Jews. This doesn’t of course absolve Schama from both defending the idea of a Jewish nation state & advocating mass immigration to Europe. He has said that he’s soft on immigration because he himself is descended from immigrants.

      • Damaris Tighe

        And something else. Some, SOME, Jewish intellectuals may be in favour of immigration (because of their own backgrounds). So are the Church of England hierarchy & many of the laity. The people who have opened the gates to the ‘refugees’ are ‘Christian’ politicians, not Jews. Merkel & her fellow travellers in power in the EU are not, in most cases, Jewish. The people who are actually facilitating this are overwhelmingly ‘Christians’ or of a Christian background.

        You are looking for a minority scapegoat to blame & as usual, history repeating itself, you are targetting the Jews.

        • Lantern

          “You are looking for a minority scapegoat to blame & as usual, history repeating itself, you are targetting the Jews.”

          If people of Jewish extraction had not pushed and championed every PC cause imaginable, had not made up a hugely disproportionate percentage of Marxist theorists from Marx himself to Trotsky, to Tony Cliff to Andrea Dworkin to Gloria Steinem to Rosa Luxembourg to Herbert Marcuse to Barbara Lerner Spectre to Saul Alinsky ad infinitum, and did not impose their guilt laden anti-white Hollywood garbage on us, then perhaps we would perceive them in a different light. If as you claim, this tribe actually contains a diversity of views, then I look forward to “Jewish traditionalists” calling out these cultural-marxist fanatics with disclaimers like “Not in our name!” , and “Stop giving Jewish people a bad name”

          Until then, kindly put a sock in it.

          • Damaris Tighe

            You do realise, don’t you, that three of the major online sites providing critique of mass immigration & Islam are run by or largely staffed by Jews: Gatestone Institute, Frontpagemag.org & Atlas Shrugs (Pamela Geller)?

            I suggest you kindly stuff your sock up your own fundament.

          • Solage 1386

            Personally, I blame the middle-classes……

          • dip

            white Hollywood garbage that includes , at every opportunity cursing Jesus Christ — “Christ onner bike” “Jesus H Christ” even “Jesus effing Christ” I know I’m not the only one who winces at this stuff, is this the jewish influence? if it is then the “Jewish traditionalists” should , for defensive reasons at least, join the rest of us in putting pressure on Hollywood to desist, a modern Hays Code perhaps. BTB try substituting Mohammod for Christ, unthinkable eh?

        • Mr B J Mann

          So it’s Bishop Sharma?!

        • The ‘minority’ being spoken of here is Simon Scharma. This is why Israel came to be mentioned. It is he who is the subject of the discussion because he went into meltdown when replied to by Rod Liddle, lost his temper and denounced Liddle (from Middlesborough) of having ‘suburban’ attitudes. LOL – it was truly wonderful to watch the wretch explode with wrath and spluttering nonsense. It came over him like a wave; his eyes changed, he heaved in camp fury, and lost all credibility as pompous elitist nonsense rushed out of him, like the Earl of Grantham vomiting a fountain of blood over the dining table in Sundays Downton Abbey.

          • Damaris Tighe

            I was responding to nibs’s post & those of several other boneheads in the thread making capital out of the fact that Schama is Jewish & repeating a meme which seems to be gaining traction. We live in a world where people want answers & to attribute easy, comfortable blame.

      • mrs1234

        I understand the point you are making but question that Arabs are indigenous to that region. That country is the birthplace of Judaism and much later, Christianity. The Islamic conquest came much later in the 600s CE. With conquest came the spread of the Arabic people as was the case across North Africa and later into Spain.

    • Sardo_Numpsa

      “no extra taxes will be raised to deal with the migrants” – forgive me if I misinterpret your post, but it appears you believe taxes should be increased to support migrants?

      The population of Africa is predicted to hit two billion by 2050, this wave of immigration is only going to increase. We will run out of money long before is starts to slow.

      • Jack_H

        I am pointing out that no extra resources will be found for the migrants.The same welfare housing and health budgets will have to be stretched further.The people claiming to’care’ so deeply seldom will cough up the money themselves so the poorest and most disadvantaged will once again be made to shoulder the burden.

      • Jack_H

        I misread your reply,I am in complete agreement with you.

        Sorry

        Jack

        • Sardo_Numpsa

          As I am with you

    • Damaris Tighe

      Israel is still formally at war with Syria. For them to taken in Syrian refugees en masse would be like WW2 Britain taking in refugees from Dresden. Nevertheless, Israel has taken in several hundred thousand migrants from Sudan, Eritrea & Ethiopia (most of whom are Muslim & might be potential hostiles). As Israel is small their numbers amount to a significant proportion of the population.

      • Jack_H

        The UK took in a lot of refugees from Germany after the war,many in the following years would have been from Dresden as being from Eastern Germany was a very valid reason to claim asylum.Scharma’s point was that Britain should do more and throw open its doors.He then made the absurd claim that the Lebanese ‘hated’Syrians yet lebanon has taken in well over a million Syrians(Lebanon is smaller than Israel)….but Scharma failed to ask why Israel doesn’t take them in.If Israel has a valid reason not to allow in Syrian refugees what is it?These people are supposedly fleeing for their lives.Scharma made the comparison with Europe’s Jews in the 30s.If Schama thinks that Syrian refugees might be disruptive in Israel why does he denounce people who make the same claim about letting untold numbers of young men from the Middle East and Africa in to Europe as bigots?

        • Damaris Tighe

          As you say, the UK took in a lot of German refugees AFTER the war. I repeat, Israel is still formally at war with Syria. Schama’s point about Lebanon wasn’t a good one, but nevertheless that country isn’t at war with Syria & has always had close ties with it.

          Your final comment about his inconsistency is absolutely correct. As a descendent of refugees he is too personally & emotionally invested & shouldn’t comment. He is in a bind – on the one hand he feels he can’t deny to others what has been given to his own family; on the other part of him must know that the untold numbers of ME young men are a danger to his own people as well as a danger to Europe.

          • Jack_H

            Lebanon took in huge numbers of refugees from Israel in the 40s,50s and 60s it removed the Christian majority and made the country an unstable mix of Christians and poor Muslims fatally destabilising the country and leading to a lot of strife.The Syrian refugees are almost exclusively Muslim yet lebanon didn’t hesitate to take them in and has behaved in a very generous way seeing the Syrians as people in need of assistance.Israel will do nothing to help Syrian refugees because the country operates discriminatory laws,dislikes Muslims and there is no sympathy in Israel for Arabs in distress……..but Schama tried to label Liddle as a Bigot.The man is a disgusting hypocrite.

          • Damaris Tighe

            In recent times Lebanon has had close ties with Syria. One of its governments was Syrian-backed. I doubt very much that Lebanon took in Syrian refugees out of the goodness of its heart. It took them in because if they did not there would have been hell to pay from the refugees’ Lebanese co-religionists.

          • Jack_H

            My point is Schama is a hypocrite.The politics of the middle east are too complex and dreary to got into here,no heroes,no angels.

          • Damaris Tighe

            I agree, Schama is a hypocrite (for many reasons, not least that he lives in a leafy suburb). So let us end here on agreement on something.

  • Derek Custance

    Rod is right, as usual, on so many issues here. This is without doubt the severest crisis facing the EU and its response has been typically woolen headed and increasingly panic stricken. Ms Merkel blundered her way into a situation where over seven million migrants pa will have to be accepted into Germany according to a German Government document. The tide of opinion in Germany is rapidly turning against Merkel as the problems mount. Rod poses the questions that the supporters of open doors to all comers never address ie is it good for the country? good for the immigrants? can the infrastructure cope?, what is the financial cost? How many for how long? It does not appear to occur to Mr Schama and his like that the majority of these people are not asylum seekers but economic migrants for which the UK has absolutely no responsibility other than to deny them access. Calais being an obvious example of the truth of this statement. Mr Cameron has shown a cool head and commonsense in spending a billion pounds on setting up refugee camps in the Middle East where they are most needed to stem the tragic flow of migrants across dangerous seas. Mr Schama has no answers to this crisis other than to shout “open the doors!”. Merkel did the same and Germany is now reflecting on the stupidity of her decision guided as it was by emotion and not by the best interests of her people. It has been obvious for some time now that the majority of opinion in the UK is strongly against an open door policy. Mr Schama might care to pause to think about that.

    • Clive

      From Spiegel on the German situation:

      http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/criticism-mounts-of-handling-of-refugee-crisis-by-merkel-a-1056315.html
      [In Germany] Furious members of parliament have been reporting to the responsible committees in parliament about the tense situation in their respective electoral districts. Andreas Scheuer, general secretary of the Bavarian CSU, related that Austrians are picking up refugees and driving them to the German border before showing them how to get to Bavaria. Another member of parliament from Straubing, near Regensburg, spoke of refugees who had disappeared on foot because they didn’t want to stay in the accommodations they had been provided with.

      • Snowmuncher

        “Austrians are picking up refugees and driving them to the German border before showing them how to get to Bavaria”

        Oh classic! That made me laugh. Thank you.

    • 7 million? Merkel has behaved like a fool but surely the figure can’t be 7 million immigrants per year to Germany?

      • Snowmuncher

        According to reports the 7.36 million is based on the assumption of 920,000 refugees in 2015, based on, presumably 7 or 8 out of 12 months of actual numbers, and a forecast for the remaining months of 2015.

        Then, as asylum claimants are entitled, they can bring over their often very large families. The assumption used was that 7 family members on average would then come to Germany

        920,000 X (1 refugee + 7 family members) = 7.36 million attributable to 2015.

        It’s fair to say that 7 family members is a high assumption, and it is more likely to be 4 or 5, on average.

        But in fact 920,000 is no longer assumed the total amount, the new, more up to date estimate is 1.5 million for 2015.

        so a better guess would be 1.5 million X (1 refugee + 4 family members) = 7.5 million, attributable to 2015.

        Other people have questioned the 1.5 million saying only around 60% will successfully claim asylum. All Syrians will likely be successful.

        So. 1.5 X 60% X (1 refugee + 4 family members) = 4.5 Million

        • Snowmuncher

          If you take the Telegraph leaked official Home Office cost estimates for Syrian refugees and assume it will be about the same for Germany, the total cost would be:

          4.5 m X £ 24,000 = £ 108 Billion = EUR 151 Billion

          Every year

          or almost 6 times Germany’s defence budget of EUR 33 Billion.

          £24,000 assumes being unemployed, (£10k if employed) but since in the UK asylum claimants cannot work, the first year at least is certain.

        • Astounding figures! Sensible deportation and repatriation plans need to be formulated for millions of these people.

    • jim

      Few members of the tribe ever have a problem with mass immigration into western countries. Golders Green is less diverse than London at large.

    • CockneyblokefromReading

      Germany is sowing a wind!

    • Migru Ghee

      Ms Merkler’s policy of opening the floodgates has absolutely nothing to do with Britain as Britain is not part of Schengen. Why you insist this was of your personal concern will perhaps interest a medical professional but not the general public. However, international convention on how to deal with refugees also applies. When we now find that migrants from Macedonia have mingled with the exodus crowd, well, who better than the Germans to filter out who is on those trains to the promised paradise?

      • bugshead

        Economic migrants who form the vast majority of these swarms are definitely not refugees. Of course the UK will be expected to contribute financially to the massive cost of this exercise and any EU green card will entitle green card holders to come and work in the UK. Perhaps you should read that comment again.

        • mrmrsspence

          My husband says the UK is directly to blame for the emergence of Isil as the UK/US coalition forces brought down the Iraqi dictator without understanding the consequences. He asked me once why I thought the UK wouldn’t be expected to financially contribute and I couldn’t answer him back.
          Every day we are told by government officials that we are making huge efforts in shouldering the cost of migration camps. What strikes both my husband and me equally is that government funding appears to be readily available for camps on foreign soil, when it comes to homes for veterans however, the Prince of Wales and his brother have to go on BBC TV and beg the British people for support. How can that be right?

      • itbeso

        It will be our problem when these migrants become German citizens and are then free to get on a train and come here.

        • Migru Ghee

          Why is that a problem? If they are fit to become German citizens surely they are fit enough to move again, come here and work more hours for less pay and a lower standard of living.

          • Snowmuncher

            Yes, like the father of Amir Abase, who moved his family from Germany to London. The daughter was one of 3 teenage Jihadi brides who joined ISIS in Syria. Her father blamed the police for what happened and was interviewed by the Commons Select Committee who asked if he might know how she became radicalised. He said he had no idea. 2 weeks later videos came out showing him in an anti western flag burning hate fest outside the US embassy, also attended by the murderer of Lee Rigby. He later admitted to taking his daughter on previous hate rallies. Not sure he had a job mind you.

          • Joseph Hooker

            He should have been prosecuted for lying to the select committee. He is in this country on our benefits using the situation to stir up hate against us. He wanted also to sue the Police because his daughter going to be a jihadi bride was their failure and negligence! I despair as a taxpayer I am paying for this nonsense.

          • Snowmuncher

            True. Another point worth mentioning is that the BBC reported 3 online stories on her father Abase Hussen:

            1. “Amir’s father suspected nothing” – interview with him, very supportive of him.

            2. “Families cannot stop crying”

            3. “UK security services “failed” over Syria girls.”

            Not a word that he took his daughter to Western hate rallies in London, which he admitted, eventually.

            The BBC was essentially the families’ free PR agency, spinning the story in a good light, when in fact at least for Mr Hussen, it was very dark – reminiscent of BBC’s protection of Savile before the truth came out, in my opinion.

            The BBC has a massive 60% market share of UK News coverage according to David Elstein, former C5 exec. The next largest is News UK at 6.5 % The BBC is dominant and publicly funded.

            You might be interested in this, which I just found. http://isthebbcbiased.blogspot.com/2015/04/a-base-response-from-bbc-complaints.html

    • Dennis Lessenis

      More than anything, I think this present crisis – hot on the heals of the Euro crisis – demonstrates the inherent weakness of the European venture. The immigrant crisis has revealed is how impotent the EU is in the face of REAL problems – and how little it has the interests of its citizens to heart.

      It is time to dismantle this useless, political and bureaucratic megalith – yes, keep a free trade zone – but nothing else.

      I am more than happy to welcome migrants – but migrants of our choosing who are either so vulnerable they cannot remain in the camps or (the vast bulk of those we should be letting in) migrants who will assimilate, have the skills we need and whose culture is not alien to that of Western Democratic values. Moreover, immigration should come with strings attached – criminal behaviour, benefit fraud, extremism should result in a one way ticket out of the UK.

      It’s dross like this I can’t understand how and why they remain in the UK – http://www.standard.co.uk/news/crime/jailed-rickshaw-driver-who-sexually-assaulted-clubber-after-giving-her-free-lift-in-return-for-a-a3095456.html

  • Partner

    Mary Beard is the woman for men who find Margaret Mounford too sexy.

    • Hoot_Gibson

      Mary Beard really does have a beard.

      • Solage 1386

        She secretes it between her legs.

  • The Bogle

    How easy it is for a Passport Briton like Simon Schama to pontificate on this matter from the comfort of his American home!

    “Question Time” is a platform for the emotionally incontinent of the panel and audience to indulge in virtue-signalling.

  • thomasaikenhead

    Rod Liddle is doing an excellent job of exposing the hypocrisy and refusal to face the facts of those who have been able to dominate the discussion about mass immigration for far too long!

    David Cameron will pay the price for ignoring the issue of illegal migrants and mass immigration because it is the primary factor motivating the electorate to consider voting No in the promised EU referendum.

    • Migru Ghee

      Yet the two a totally unrelated so why masses of voters would think what you think remains a mystery to us all.

      • saffrin

        The two are very much related, so related in fact they are the same thing.
        If we want to control migration, we have no option but to vote No.

      • Lapin

        Perhaps the fact that the European Commission (who brag about not having to worry about populism because they are uneelected – a system praised for this very reason by Peter Sutherland who works tirelessly and openly in his quest to bring an end to the European people) have said that Europe must take millions of third worlders each year and that these must be legally spread throughout Europe. The Commission have also been working for years saying Europe needs a plan to start importing millions of Africans for “labour” because of birth rates.

        Ever growing populations are a Ponzi scheme and Japan is finding its quality of life keeps rising despite below-replacement level birth rates, but the gods of neo-liberalism are demanding ever growing populations because they cannot imagine a world in which their profits don’t grow exponentially each year. Meanwhile it will destroy the West, make our countries unsafe but the European Commission who loathes native Europeans is determined to make it happen.

        • van Lomborg

          “The Commission have also been working for years saying Europe needs a
          plan to start importing millions of Africans for “labour” because of
          birth rates.”

          Is that even English? What does it mean? What does it prove? What are you wanting?

          • Lapin

            Because of low birth rates. It wasn’t hard, was it? Also note that the EU has been tirelessly pushing women in work knowing it lowers birth rates and that migrants and second generation migrants will take no notice because they consider themselves apart from the mainstream culture.

          • Gahd McAfi

            Migrants take no notice….
            Migrants consider themselves….

            Is that even English? What does it mean? Do you speak for them? How? Who appointed you to speak for them?

          • Lapin

            If you’ve got reading comprehension problems then I’m afraid that’s not my fault, pal. If you and your friend above have no arguments to make then I suggest you spend your time on here http://learnenglish.britishcouncil.org/en/ rather than posting inane comments pretending to scratch your heads at what other people have written. Or if you want to argue on Disqus then make sure you actually have a point to make.

          • Fried Ch’i

            F e c k e r, you and your gang of muppet are f e c k i n hitlerious!

        • bugshead

          Peter Sutherland is another unelected useless expensive loud shite

      • KittyR

        ‘The two are totally unrelated’. Do you mean to suggest that EU policy and the ability of migrants to move unhindered across European borders, thus eventually being able to access the UK once they are EU citizens, are completely unrelated issues? Perhaps I’ve misunderstood you, do explain. I doubt many Brits have a problem understanding how the two are linked.

  • CN

    When did he cross paths with David Starkey?

  • Jack Smith

    The argument that we’re ‘all human’ and therefore Brits should have no problem with unending swarms of foreigners inserting themselves here is just garbage. Sentimental, intellectually incoherent, destructive garbage. Burglars and squatters are human beings too, so by Schama’s logic we shouldn’t mind if they want to break into our house, take whatever they want and do whatever they want. Because that is what immigrants are doing to our country at present. Aided and abetted in their plunder by a hostile and traitorous ruling class.

    • Hippograd

      Please please please remember the Holocaust. It grants Schama and his Community a compassion, humanity and wisdom that you and so-called Liddle can never in a million years hope to match.

      • Sponsz

        Schama and his tribe want to see the destruction of Christian Europe as revenge for the unplesantness in the 1940s?

        • Damaris Tighe

          What absolute rubbish. The political enablers of the destruction of Christian Europe are Merkel & her fellow EU politicians – almost all of Christian background. The people who are actually doing this to Europe are ‘Christians’. Schama holds an absurd opinion but when I last looked he wasn’t a politician & has no power to execute any policy whatsoever in Europe. ‘His tribe’ holds a diversity of opinion & the overwhelming majority love Europe as it is.

        • Hippograd

          Of course not. They put themselves last and everyone else first, as always.

    • Solage 1386

      Will YOU be offering your spare room to a migrant in need? You probably wouldn’t even notice the odd fuzzy wuzzy here or there. All of them have been house-trained. Simon has twenty in his attic and ten in his basement.

  • Arthur Ascii

    Rod was excellent on QT and his point about the Muslim charity abandoning the Calais camp visits was met with stunned silence. No one tried to debaite the point because there is no counter argument. It was a statement of fact that is lost on those paving a road to Hell with good intentions.

    The far Left and the far Right have both spotted opportunities and are on the rise again. It’s not going to end well is it?

  • CharleyFarleyFive

    Flailing like a camp Magnus Pyke Schama’s little outburst, of which he was no doubt rather proud, broke against the storm defence that is Rod Liddle like a spilt carton of lentil and carrot soup.

    Liddle’s face was a picture. Schama, seemingly unaware, revealed in his use of one word what an effete snob he undoubtedly is.

    And he doesn’t even live here.

  • dramocles

    Go for it Rod, I can’t wait for you to get stuck into the weathermen.

  • The refusal to see sense exhibited by people like Sharma and tens of thousands of other left leaning sentimentalists makes me despair. It is the fact that most of Europe seems incapable of doing anything to protect its borders, its living conditions and the standard of living of its ordinary people which encourages the swarms of migrants to set off. When Frau Merkle announced that they would take a million – a million or more set off, and we haven’t seen the last of that wave – not by a long chalk. Meanwhile, Radio 4 cheerfully runs programmes advocating that people should take in lodgers – because there are no houses of course, and we hear the news that there are twenty-million spare bedrooms in the country. Is that the limit of our aspirations for our people? That they should pack their homes with strangers – presumably queueing for the bog and waiting three deep in teh kitchen to get at the stove, or plough through other people’s unwashed dishes before getting in the queue for a space at the table? I exaggerate – a bit, but only a bit. this is where we are headed in England. Meanwhile, oafs at the Intergenerational Foundation get air time on the ‘Beeb’ to expound the view that ‘the Baby Boomers’ have taken all the pie and must be taxed into giving up their homes to the young who of course, unlike the old, have not worked a lifetime to pay for them. I feel sorry for the young, especially in London and the South East, but I and my generation are not the problem. It is the ten million new Britons that have arrived here since about 1990 and are doing so at an ever increasing rate.

    Meanwhile Mad Frau Merkle, in an effort to undo the consequences of her generous announcement to Syria’s five million displaced people, makes a deal with the Turks to let in all and sundry who want to come from their 75 million population…… It would be comic if it were not so serious and tragic.

    • Parsnips

      Beautifully put.

  • MikeF

    Quite – but remember the ‘liberal-left’ think that on any subject concerned with minorities they are ‘on the side of the angels’. In fact they probably think they are the angels. As such they simply cannot comprehend that whatever they say and do is not the perfect expression of absolute principle. Mr Schama – like the rest of them – is defending his own estimation of himself.

    • Solage 1386

      Simon is an arrogant kunt.

  • zanzamander

    I have absolutely no trust in historians. Everything they write is tainted with their own prejudices. What Mary Beard is interpreting now about the Romans was written by historians who were similarly prejudiced and had axes to grind or maybe just had a bad day and then she goes and puts her own little lefty spin on it, so what we get now is nothing resembling the truth but spin upon spin upon spin.

    What Schama and other modern historians write about our present day is nothing but a distillation of their own views, opinions and yes, bigotry.

    So, never trust a historian, they’re humans after all.

    • I find Simon Schama’s history programmes unwatchable due to his prejudice. In fact, now you mention it, all modern BBC history programmes are the same.

      • Solage 1386

        I hate it when TV historians speak of the past in the present tense so as to make it seem more ‘real’ and ‘relevant’: “So, Henry leaves Hampton Court and arrives in London. He commands that Sir Thomas More be arrested for high treason”, and so on. This method of presenting history began in the late 90s, and really gets on my effing titz.

    • Freddythreepwood

      I hope she is going to tell us what the Romans did for us.

    • Solage 1386

      What about Tacitus and Thucydides?

  • Ashley Smyth

    I thought Rod’s arguments on the programme were very succinct and to the point; no flappy hands and looks of horrified concern for him. It was also nice to see that when Schama, clearly wounded by the “emotive” remarks, lost his composure and started spitting venom that Rod remained calm (mostly). It added weight to the rational side of the argument that he was championing. It was the perfect slice of late Thursday night theatre.

    • Solage 1386

      Simon’s mouth went dry at one point and his tongue waggled helplessly back and forth. I was fascinated. It reminded me of a tortoise retracting its neck back into the safety of its shell. When I saw this, a look of horrified concern appeared on my face. Then I chuckled and took another sip of pink gin.

  • laurence

    I admire your ability to focus, Rod. I couldn’t follow Schama’s line of reason at all as I was too intent upon his camp quivering:it was as if his central nervous system had gone in to a theatrical spasm. Of course, while the majority of the population aren’t quite so keen on untrammelled immigration, the Beeb, nevertheless, manage to find the very vocal few who do.

  • kuffir

    “It wasn’t then — but there is a case for saying that they are now.”

    Exactly right.

  • MrFGordon

    All altruists are inherently selfish. They do it either out of guilt, PR, or they or a family member have been in a similar situation. Schama’s selfish altrusim about the migrant crisis stems from the fact his ancestors suffered at the hands of the Nazis, and he instinctively takes sides with refugees and immigrants, because what is good for one set of immigrants, is good for all.

    • Damaris Tighe

      This is the bottom line when understanding where people like Schama are coming from. He should refrain from comment because he is too emotionally & personally invested.

    • E.I.Cronin

      Damaris beat me to it! 🙂 A good insight MrF. My father is Anglo Saxon but my mother arrived in the late 1940’s with my POW grandparents – both Slav. To date my mother is incapable of thinking rationally on the subject of immigration or asylum. No amount of reasoning or presentation of facts can prevent a volcanic response to any suggestion immigration has negative consequences. I’m slowly working on her though and hope to bring her around.

      • Damaris Tighe

        When the migrant crisis started I said here that I wouldn’t comment because I’m myself descended from refugees. Despite all my posts about malign third world cultures imported to the west (ie regular immigration), I was uncomfortable denying to genuine refugees what my own forbears received. I’ve now entered the fray because it’s absolutely clear to me that refugees or not, these people are in such numbers & the behaviour of some is so appalling, that their refugee status must not be a claim on western nations – otherwise those nations will destroy themselves.

        • E.I.Cronin

          Actually I think those of us raised in mixed cultural families have a lot to contribute to the current debate so am glad you’re speaking up. Your father was Polski wasn’t he Damaris? Post war migration was a radically different situation with very different outcomes. I have an ancient Babushka (I told her she outfoxed the 4 Great Dictators of the 2othC: Lenin; Stalin; Hitler and her Husband :)) who sees the latest waves of migration very clearly. I’ve interviewed a few of that generation and many of them are disgusted by recent developments under Multicultural Policy and the effects of immigration.

          When they arrived the White Australia policy was still in force and they were allowed in because they could assimilate. We had blonde hair and blue eyes. There was no question of rejecting assimilation and they were from Christian cultures. Plus there was a genuine need for migrant labour as Australia was embarking on engineering projects like the Snowy Mountains Scheme and we were only just emerging from post-war deprivation.

          I also want to be brutally honest about the migrant experience. So much is made of Anglo Australian racism. And of course prejudice did exist – but I heard much more scorn from migrants about Australians than coming from the other direction. There was dreadful contempt! They despised the simple, unsophisticated society we had. My Anglo grandparents never said a single derogatory word about ‘New Australians’. Not once did I hear a single abusive word, they were such dignified, good people. I sensed they had deep misgivings about the influx and the long term implications but never stooped to abuse. They loved their country as it was. So I see and feel for both sides but my loyalties are to my Anglo heritage. Be interested to hear your experience or general impressions, but understand if here is not the place.

          • mohdanga

            I’m sure there are many Australians that wish the White Australia policy still existed. Japan is a monoculture and allows no non-Japanese immigration and there’s nary a peep about it in the press, in fact, nothing is made of this. But if white countries, founded, settled, and built by whites, don’t let in the non-white unassimilateables, there is a massive outcry.
            Your comment about migrants scorning the host Australians rings true today in all Western countries. We are filled with unappreciative Muslims and 3rd worlders demanding we respect and tolerate their barbaric practices. Western countries are doomed.

          • E.I.Cronin

            I am hearing more and more BTL comments asking that question. Obviously we can’t go back in time, but what we can do is change again. If we are going to socially engineer through immigration – let us do it wisely and with the democratic consent and choice of the people. We’ve gone from one extreme to the other – a discriminatory policy to a completely indiscriminate one. It’s time for a wise, discerning immigration policy. I want to see an immigration programme that acknowledges, respects and nurtures our core culture and ethnic heritage. Because that’s the only way a multiracial society can function well – minorities should be embedded in a stable, core ethnic community.

            The White Australia Policy is a complex and fascinating part of our history. It was partly racial but it was also a very pragmatic policy that protected Australian workers from being undercut by cheap migrant labour. I found an 1879 newspaper article where a Reverend berated Australians for their racial animosity but he also emphasised that Anglo men worked for 50p a week to feed their families. Single Chinese labourers could work for 15p a week. How would anyone react if your livelihood and capacity to feed your wife and kids was threatened? The WAP was never as absolute as popularly conceived either. And it shaped our identity completely. My grandparents grew up in a poor but very safe, carefree and united society.

            I would love to see race, ethnicity and culture being debated in an adult way – instead of the adolescent tantrums that Schama and his fellow travellers bring to the table.
            Hey! I heard about Trudeau…

          • mohdanga

            Trudeau the 2nd will drive the final nail into Canada’s coffin, he’s beatified father sent us well on our way to economic, social, and cultural bankruptcy with profligate spending, social engineering, replacing 1st world immigrants with 3rd world enrichers, and foisting us with a Charter of Rights that allows any and all scoundrels, criminals, and undeserving types to be allowed into Canada, to be supported at Canadians’ expense.
            Trudeau II will continue on the same route, admiring and praising dictatorships, bringing in Syrian ‘refugees’, taxing, borrowing and spending. He has cozied up to the Muslim ‘community’, which means opening the spigot to more enriching Muslims coming to Canada, what with their vibrant burqas and niqabs. He will be a disaster for us.
            I miss the country of my youth. When I go to Toronto I feel like a stranger in my own country. Over 50% of the population are minorities…which the elites keep saying is so ‘progressive’ and an example of good Canada is, although no evidence to support this is ever given. These same elites would be apoplectic if it was suggested that the largest city in India, Pakistan, China, etc were to become white, English speaking, over a period of 30 years.

          • E.I.Cronin

            I’m really sorry. That’s very painful. Many of us here know from personal experience how alienating and distressing cultural loss is. The same process happened in Sydney and I would never willingly visit the city I grew up in again. If it’s any consolation all I can say is this process is affecting all western nations and what MAY happen is that as Trudeau’s regressive policies bite deeper and the damage becomes more apparent opposition will organise and grow. Look at the rise and success of outsider parties across Europe. Look at Switzerland. The duopoly stranglehold is weakening. In Australia there is massive unrest and a new political party has just been launched. It’s a shame that voters have to be confronted at the 11th hour before they change their preferences but there is some hope.

          • mohdanga

            Glad to see there is unrest and a new political party (Geert Wilders) in Australia. I spent two enjoyable years there and to see it going down the path of the rest of the West is disheartening.
            It’s interesting (and sickening) the way the mainstream media and politicians refer to the parties that want to save their culture/countries as ‘far right extremist parties’ because it doesn’t fit their multiculti, mass immigration narrative. Geert Wilders party in the Netherlands has more seats than the two coalition parties that make up the gov’t there, as well as the highest poll numbers. Yet the dopey WA premier mouths off about how his views ‘don’t represent those of most Australians’. How would he know?? It’s not Australians that will be causing the ‘security risk’, it’s the ‘peaceful’ Muslims in Australia that will be rioting and demanding his death!!

          • E.I.Cronin

            Ha! Barnett put the kybosh on Geert’s first visit and they had to cancel his talk. Not this time. Debbie Robinson leader of Aus Libs told the Fairfax press visits to their site jumped from 38k to 800k. How will that translate into votes? who knows but I think our backwardness and isolation may save us – while MC has been devastating for Australia it’s not as advanced as Europe and Canada and is still a contested issue. As Europe becomes increasingly unstable and incoherent it sets a frightening example of our fate if we continue. With a bit of luck A.L.A can get off the ground and unfortunately each crises spurs their relevance. Not the way I want things to develop but thank goodness these folks have the guts to give it a go. Has Geert been to Canada?

          • mohdanga

            Geert hasn’t been here yet, but I’m sure when he wants to he will be met by the same frothing lefties (who preach ‘tolerance’ and ‘diversity’) yelling that he shouldn’t be allowed in. Our media here is in full Trudeaumania mode so will expect many more stories as to how we need to be more ‘caring’ and ‘accepting’ of foreigners who only want to be here for i) social service payments and ii) Canadian passport of convenience.
            Multiculturalism is a failure, full stop. No country can survive it for extended periods of time. Just look at the Balkans and Middle East.

          • E.I.Cronin

            Move back here!. Good luck mate.

          • Mr B J Mann

            “These same elites would be apoplectic if it was suggested that the largest city in India, Pakistan, China, etc were to become white, English speaking, over a period of 30 years.”

            We’re not even allowed to use the English names for Bombay or Peking!!!!!!!!!

          • mdj

            The Japanese PM has also said he is happy to see his country’s population slowly decline to a sustainable level, by contrast with the dishonest hysteria elsewhere about an ‘aging’ population.

            When life expectancy increases, the population ‘ages’ – it’s mostly good news!

          • mohdanga

            100% correct!! What is wrong with a population stabilizing at a normal size??? In 1972 Canada’s population was about 21 million, unemployment was at a bearable rate, there were not huge ethnic ghettoes, the debt was small (but growing because of the policies of the great multiculturalist, Pierre Trudeau), congestion was nothing compared to today, and things were good. Now, the population is 35 million, we bring in 250,000 immigrants a year, the debt and deficits are astronomical, ethnic tensions abound, house prices are high….what are the benefits??? If large populations are so great why are the Chinese, Indians, and Africans clamouring to get to the West?
            This idea that more population is needed is based on politicians instituting policies that are Ponzi based and used to buy votes. The present population is needed to pay for the benefits of previous populations that are growing older….when does it end???
            I would rather my culture slowly wither away than be replaced by a totally foreign culture that abhors me, but somehow will save my culture/country by, as the pro-growth politicians and elite say, ‘paying my pension’ (which is impossible since most of them suck off the system).

      • Penny

        My husband is a refugee, but from the Arab world. He doesn’t wholly share the emotion seemingly experienced by others whose families have some links to immigration and asylum. I think one of our problems is that the earlier mass immigration scenario has exhausted our acceptance and (resource) ability to accept much more of it. Watching it happen, I did wonder how we would react when an international crisis occurred – as it inevitably would. Had we not already had such an influx, would we have been more willing to absorb those fleeing, as with did with the Ugandan Asians?

        • E.I.Cronin

          I remember you mentioning that Penny and wanted to ask about it. There are enclaves of Lebanese Maronites and Syrian Christians in Sydney too. Agreed – the resources and goodwill for many people have been strained. Watching Schama you realise how taboo reasonable discussion on immigration, ethnicity and culture has become. If there was ever a need for cool, rational debate it is now!

  • General_Patten

    Its called virtue signalling. He was playing to the cameras and his fellow lefty Islington mates (plus of-course the biased BBC audience)

  • Peter Stroud

    Excellent article. Why did we not learn from the Australians? Had the EU as a unit, pooled naval resources when the trickle started, before it became a flood:we would not be facing the problems we are today. It was noticeable, even in the very early days that the majority of migrants were fit, young men. Then was the time to ruthlessly select only the poor, the aged and children: and return the young men to their countries of origin.

  • Hippograd

    Of course he has an argument — the most powerful argument in history: the Holocaust (PBUI). He and his Community suffered it, Mr Liddle. You and your “community” inflicted it. That makes him and his Community experts in oppression. If you were a decent person, you would keep shtum and obey when the Community tells you what to do. By not keeping quiet, you are merely proving that the Community is right in wanting to have Europe flooded with cleansing waves of Muslims and other Third-Worlders.

    • Clive

      Of course there are Jews – not least the Jewish state – who milk the Holocaust in an anti-Gentile way which gives them a lot of scope.

      In recent times 9/11 and ancillary actions have been similarly milked in an anti-Muslim way

      It’s politics in a vicious circle with social friction in the same way that brought about the Holocaust and 9/11 in the first place.

      It is not good.

  • Maureen Fisher

    What people object to is more Muslim migration for the simple reason that they do not easily assimilate into our societies. The fact that the wealthy Arab countries are reluctant to take their fellow co-religionists who are from a different sect should be an indication of the problems these people bring with them. Wonder how long this comment will last.

    • Clive

      It’s not Muslim immigration – it is immigration from certain cultures which are mostly Muslim. I know that sounds like splitting hairs but it’s important.

      Supposing a lot of western white people were immigrating to some country and some of them were from American Christian sects who were nutters like Ku Klux Klan. Would you like being blamed for their anti-social attitudes ?

      Among the nutters from these repressive cultures we also have Malala Yousafzai who campaigns for the education of women in these cultural bogholes – certain places in Pakistan and Afghanistan. The repression affects them more than us.

      We already have them here as part of our colonial inheritance and thank God we are watching out for their perpetuation through the education system. I hope we are also being very careful who we allow in from these cultures but don’t blame all Muslims.

      On the bright side, these cultures cannot keep the light out forever. They will diminish like the superstitious stupidity that was European Christianity did.

      • Maureen Fisher

        The fact that FGM and forced marriage continues to thrive in our 21st century UK society makes me less optimistic than you.

        • Clive

          FGM also thrives among the Masai who are not Muslims.

          Arranged marriage used to be normal in Christian society.

          • Maureen Fisher

            I’ve endlessly heard this from lefty trolls. Goodbye.

          • Clive

            Out of argument, into invective. So it goes.

          • Maureen Fisher

            When someone writes “arranged marriage used to be normal in Christian society” I rather think it is they who are out of argument. We used to do that 200 years ago . We haven’t done this for a long time because it isn’t civilised. No doubt you’re the first one to bang on about human and women’s rights.

          • nicnac

            How do: ‘What about the Masai’ and ‘used to’ answer her point about FGM and forced marriage continuing in 21st C UK society? You just trot these factoids out without a second’s thought.

          • Clive

            Because these practices are being related exclusively to Muslims which is false

            I didn’t think that was all that complicated

          • E.I.Cronin

            Approx 500 a month in Britain. Henry Jackson Society just released a report on the issue of forced marriage in ‘modern’ Britain. Allison Pearson also mentioned Heathrow had a special task force that tries to intervene in young Muslim girls being taken abroad to marry a cousin or somesuch.

            You didn’t even enter into debate with Maureen but used the standard whataboutery.

          • Clive

            No, Maureen didn’t enter into the debate with me, she just indulged in some invective about lefty trolls and went.

            There is a problem with forced marriage in the UK but it is not just Muslims that are involved. Indian communities which are non-Muslim also engage in forced marriage. Chinese communities do as well although not so much in the UK.

            I realise that Mohammed set a bad example but I believe it is important to blame the cultural problem which is not religious.

            Until the Rotherham, etc. scandals, most identified paedophiles were old white men. I am an old white man. I am not a paedophile. Would it have been fair if some other racial group had said paedphilia was a problem of old white men ?

            Call it whataboutery if you wish, it does not undermine the argument

          • E.I.Cronin

            The majority of FGM are being committed in Muslim communities in contemporary Britain. The example of the Masai is irrelevant to her point. And forced marriages in an Islamic or Hindu context are both immigration issues, but I would be interested to see the stats in the HSJ report. Your reference to past Christian practices is irrelevant. Am a broken record on this subject but check the Civitas report on Sharia Courts in the UK. We are talking about sex with minors having a scriptural mandate – not to mention the added complication that Sharia supersedes Secular law to devout Muslims.

          • Clive

            The point is that FGM is not religious, it is cultural. That it happens a lot in Muslim communities is hardly surprising because Islam is the largest religion in the Third World, which is where these backward practices happen.

            I could have included in past Christian practices that the Virgin Mary was probably about 13 when she gave birth. That was culturally normal at the time, although it is not specified anywhere what her age was.

            It is also true to say that the Bible supersedes secular law for devout Christians. http://www.dailykos.com/story/2015/09/02/1417554/-Kentucky-County-Clerk-Kim-Davis-thinks-God-s-law-supersedes-Secular-and-Constitutional-Law#
            After being rebuffed by the Supreme Court and therefore exhausting the appeals process, Kentucky county clerk Kim Davis denied a marriage license to a gay couple today for the fifth time since the legalization of same-sex marriage. Davis is part of a small group of county clerks who claim that their interpretation of divine law trumps their responsibilities as public officials. Demanding that one couple seeking a marriage license leave her office, Davis said that she is acting “under God’s authority.”

          • E.I.Cronin

            Clive there 85+ ‘courts’ operating and there are serious implications for civil society – polygamy, divorce law, child custody, inheritance and fundamental liberties that are being denied to British citizens. Not to mention the extreme hostility to apostates and other minorities. I read about the Christian women and the SSM licence but you are pointing to a single incident in another country too, as if it justifies a huge social and religous conflict in the UK. Extremist groups exist in all faith and political ideologies – that doesn’t mean we allow them all to proliferate unchecked if their activities continually break the law. The US incident is a different case. I sympathise with her right to freedom of conscience but if you are employed as a public servant… very complex. I would recommend reading the Civitas report as the imam who justifies child sex uses your same argument – the age of consent was extremely low in many societies including western ones. In 7thC Arabia a 9 year old being married may have been socially acceptable. In 21stC UK it is not. Also – if historical abuses occurred – why compound them now? If civil disobedience occurs in one ethnic context – that in no way justifies it in another.

          • Well said. But I fear you are wasting your time. the public sector including elements of the police are wedded to this nonsense and still persist in referring to Islam (ridiculously) as the religion of peace. LOL.

            Winston Churchill had a different and more realistic take on it. He said of Islam – “That
            religion, which above all others was founded and propagated by the sword—the
            tenets and principles of which are instinct with incentives to slaughter
            and which in three continents has produced fighting breeds of men—stimulates
            a wild and merciless fanaticism.”

            Extract from ‘The Story of the Malakand Field Force’. Project Guntenberg free http://www.gutenberg.org/files/9404/9404-h/9404-h.htm

          • E.I.Cronin

            Thanks Arthur, I should have a collection of auto-replies for Islamist sympathisers like Clive on hand – saves valuable time. You’re right, it’s a waste of time debating some people but I figure casual readers might find our arguments persuasive or useful. I love that quote – they broke the mold after making Winston. How shrewd and true is he!

          • Clive

            Are you going to keep the quote in my comment above as well ?

          • Clive

            Winston Churchill made that quote in 1898 when he was 24.

            Somewhat later, in the 1940s, his family feared he would convert to Islam he was so enamoured of it:

            http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/11314580/Sir-Winston-Churchill-s-family-feared-he-might-convert-to-Islam.html
            …Lady Gwendoline’s concerns may not have been so wide of the mark. Not only did Churchill appear to regard Islam and Christianity as equals – a surprisingly progressive notion for the time – but he also admired the military prowess and history of expansion of the Ottoman Empire.

            In October 1940, as Britain faced its darkest hour against Nazi Germany, Churchill approved plans to build a mosque in central London and set aside £100,000 for the project. He continued to back the building of what became the London Central Mosque in Regent’s Park – which he hoped would win support for Britain in the Muslim world at a crucial moment – even in the face of public criticism.

            In December 1941, he told the House of Commons: “Many of our friends in Muslim countries all over the East have already expressed great appreciation of this gift.”…

          • From your supplied link:

            “Of course, Churchill did not convert to Islam, and Dr Dockter
            concludes that his fascination was “largely predicated on Victorian
            notions, which heavily romanticised the nomadic lifestyle and honour
            culture of the Bedouin tribes”.

            Such was his limited
            understanding of Islam that as colonial secretary during the early 1920s
            he had to ask what the difference was between Shia and Sunni Muslims,
            the two major groupings whose long-standing animosity is currently
            playing out in Syria and Iraq.”

            That you take as evidence of his ‘near conversion’, a quote from some unknown female relative who misunderstands his attitude is ridiculous.

            Churchill during the war was understandably desperate to recruit all the allies he could against Hitler. He also thanked God for teh sinking of the Lusitania as it brought a powerful ally into WW1. You mistake his strategic plotting for his wanting to be a Muslim – POPPYCOCK of the highest
            order, but then we don’t expect rational thinking and judgement from you.

            I note that you do not quote this gem from your reference source ->

            “In his book The River War (1899) – his account of the frontier wars of
            India and Sudan – he was scathing of the fundamentalist, ultra
            conservative Mahdiyya form of Islam adopted by the Dervish population of
            North Africa.

            He states: “How dreadful are the curses which
            Mohammedanism lays on its votaries … Improvident habits, slovenly
            systems of agriculture, sluggish methods of commerce … The influence
            of the religion paralyses the social development of those who follow
            it.”

          • By the way – it wasn’t just ‘That quote’. His books, The Story of The Malakand Field Force” 1898 and ‘The River War’ 1899, are packed with his contempt for what he calls ‘Mohammedanism’. He wrote thousands of words when he was in contact with these people about their depraved adherence to the nonsense of their superstition. instead of busying yourself with selective quotations, try reading the totality of what he wrote and said.

          • MrsBTejon

            islam means submission, not peace,does it not?

          • Knives_and_Faux

            The know-nothing tepid water-treaders who are excreted from common purpose courses are placed at the head of every public institution. One cannot lead a public institution without having been anointed by common purpose. The thousand yard stare party line, ‘slam is religion of peace, we must take our fair share etc etc etc.

          • Mr B J Mann

            Is that your best example?!

            There is grave doubt about the legality of the Supreme Court decision.

            And even if there isn’t there is doubt that it can or should be used to force people to act in that way.

            It’s one thing breaking the law in a host country just because it’s OK in your culture.

            Are you saying that the French can do 80 on our motorways and the Germans any speed they like?!?!

            It’s another thing to force Muslims and Jews to eat pork because it’s part of our culture!!!

          • crosscop

            Clive –

          • itbeso

            “The point is that FGM is not religious, it is cultural.”

            Religion is culture.

          • MrsBTejon

            it is cultural, but it’s not seen in, for example, Sicily, Oslo or Abergavenny is it?

          • Mr B J Mann

            Are you saying we should banish old white paedophiles from the UK?!

          • The cases were mostly about old white men because the police, affected by political pressure to be careful of upsetting some ‘communities’ were steadfastly NOT dealing with the massive horror of under-aged sexual exploitation that was operating out of hundreds of take-aways, taxi firms and in other ways right across the country. In Rotherham alone there were twelve hundred girls preyed on by these characters. There are and have been cases brought to court in a dozen other cities. Do you think the numbers of victims will be any different in these places? I suspect not. We just ignored what was going on so as not to upset ‘the communities’. There should and MUST BE ONE COMMUNITY in this country – the British community. It may be composed of many colours and hail from various backgrounds, but it must be ONE, otherwise we are on the road to rapid ruin and civil war.

          • Lapin

            >Until the Rotherham, etc. scandals, most identified paedophiles were old white men. I am an old white man. I am not a paedophile. Would it have been fair if some other racial group had said paedphilia was a problem of old white men ?

            “A 2011 study by the Child Exploitation and Online Protection Centre looked at the 2,379 potential offenders caught grooming girls since 2008. Of 940 suspects whose race could be identified, 26% were Asian, 38% were white and 32% were recorded as unknown. Asians are roughly 7% of the population.

            A report for the children’s commissioner in 2012 found there were 1,514 perpetrators. Of these, 545 were white, 415 were Asian and 244 were black. The ethnicity of 21% of perpetrators was not recorded. Attempts to analyse the Asian figure further runs into problems. Just 35 of the 415 Asians are recorded as having Pakistani heritage and thus highly likely to be Muslim, and only five are recorded as being from a Bangladeshi background. The heritage of 366 of the Asian group is not stated in those figures.”

          • nicnac

            You appear to be inverting the Parable of the Mote and the Beam. You don’t want us to see the beam in Islam’s eye until we’ve dealt with the speck in our own. Whataboutisms and usedtoisms don’t cut it.

          • Clive

            It is not Islam, that is the problem. It is a beam in the eye of certain cultures. UK Muslim culture is different from Muslim culture in the Swat valley. It is crucially different.

            In that a minority in the UK try to follow those practices they follow in Pakistan, we stamp them out.

            Translating a cultural problem on to a religion is wrong because adherents to that religion who do not follow those cultural practices will feel victimised.

            I said in a comment below that before the recent scandals, most paedophiles were old white men. I could also have said they were Christians. Suppose that Muslims had as a result said that paedophilia was a Christian problem ?

            …and just saying these are ‘…isms’ of some kind or another is hardly a refutation.

          • NO! It is all about religion. The fact that probably every one of us knows some nice Muslim chap who is a jolly good fellow does not alter the fact that over the last fifty years the nature of Muslims living in teh UK has changed. I well remember pleasant, suit wearing moustachioed, Muslim gentlemen and their wives arriving in this land during the 1950s and 1960s. The ladies wore a scarf draped over their heads. They obeyed the essentials of their religion and fitted in. Since then a horrible change has occurred. The streets of some towns are filled with ghostly, black draped figures wearing masks, walking with large strings of children, even some of the little girls are masked. The men wear great beards, dress as if they lived in rural Pakistan and act sullenly towards our women who are not masked and wearing the ghost costume. Whole areas of many towns are populated by these people. There is no English spoken, they have become places hostile to anyone who is not of that ilk. There are belligerent minorities of these people demanding that we respect their horrible culture of misogyny and intolerance as if it was WE who had insinuated ourselves like a cancer into THEIR society.

            If you don’t see the difference between those early polite and respectable settlers and what is now happening, you either live in some blessed suburban idyll, or you are blinded by left wing political correctness.

          • MrsBTejon

            yep I grew up in Luton in the 70s and what you say reflects exactly my experience – then their kids played at our house and ate our food. It was a sunnier time. Now, dressed like stealth bombers and downtown ‘Pindi, relations between us natives and the second generation of migrants are mostly altered for the worse, or absent entirely. Political ‘islamism’ has ruined it.

          • Knives_and_Faux

            So true I remember(having grown up in one of the first multicultural areas) there was a lot more tolerance before the ‘tolerance’ and ‘offence’ laws were introduced by Blair in 1997. Like most things from our cossetted minority political class they excel in irony as all their meddling invariably creates the inverse effect.

          • itbeso

            “I said in a comment below that before the recent scandals, most paedophiles were old white men.”

            Because today, at least, the country is still 85% non Muslim and white. however the Muslim population are responsible for a proportion of crime way over what their demographic would suggest we expect. You need a 101 primer in logic, reason and statistics.

          • Mr B J Mann

            We’re discussing immigration.

            How many Masai swarming into the UK?!

          • Solage 1386

            I encountered a group of Masai in the Kilburn High Road last Saturday. They were involved in an altercation with a group of Eritrean hill tribesmen. Fearing for my safety as spears whistled overhead, I was finally rescued from the fracas by a group of passing N’banga Pygmies, for which I shall be eternally grateful.

          • Mr B J Mann

            So you should be.

            In Rwanda they managed to exterminate a “swarm” of 800,000 “locusts” in only 100 days with nothing more than an assortment of blunt kitchen utensils and rusty garden implements plus a few sharpened sticks.

            That’s a more efficient kill rate than in the H0locaust!

            Just imagine what they could do on Kilburn High Road on a Saturday!

            PS Rwanda comes almost at the bottom of the Guardian gun ownership league table.

            See what gun free zones do for ya!

          • Solage 1386

            I always get the Hootsies and the Tootsies confused…..

          • So did burning at the stake and beheading, but WE got over it hundreds of years ago and adopted civilised values. Are you surprised that some of us find these things a bit trying?

      • Mr B J Mann

        How is Malala different from any other Muslim who has been brainwashed into sacrificing her life fo her beliefs to achieve “Paradise” except in so far as far her parents are concerned that means a “liberal” heaven on earth?!

        And we saw how well that worked in Iraq and Libya!

        • Clive

          Everyone who has a religion believes their life leads to some kind of Paradise.

          It is religion’s USP

          I would not, myself, get lumps blown out of my head to achieve immigration to Birmingham but maybe you’re right.

          You and I probably disagree about Iraq and Libya.

          • Mr B J Mann

            So you concur with “progressive” lefty “liberalism” being a religion.

            So you think Iraq and Libya turned out well?!

          • Clive

            All belief systems amount to religions. A belief is an unsubstantiated conclusion

            Iraq and Libya have a distance to travel yet but at least they’re travelling

          • Mr B J Mann

            You absolutely don’t have a clue do you?!

            You’re like those people who still believe that thousands died in the Chernobyl accident because that’s what the “liberals” said was supposed to happen!!!

      • Ku Klux clan are a tiny minority of the society they come from. Problematic Muslims are not a minority. They are quite typical. You don’t have to be a rabid beheader to be problematic. Just look at any northern city, or even one not so northern like Oxford. I’m sure you are familiar with the number of child exploitation and pimping trials there are going on. They are happening just about everywhere this ‘community’ has settled from Newcastle to the south. Look also at the proportion of the prison population that is ‘Muslim’ and then look at the size of that ‘community’ in the population. Look at the proportion of doctors struck off, or any other indicator of contribution and you will soon see the pattern. Then there is the terrorism thing…..

      • FORD

        What you call superstitious stupidity, for the last1500 years, gave us values and a spiritual and moral guidance to follow and live our lives by. Do you think It’s a better World we live in, now that social Marxism has debased and nearly destroyed all our human decency, traditions and culture?

    • Icebow

      I think Swordy Arabia offered to pay for 200 new mosques in Germany. That sounds like their idea of a contribution. We need a Pegida.

      • Simon Fay

        “Swordy Arabia” Excellent.

        • Shazza

          Swordy Barbaria.

  • MrFGordon

    It was great to see Simon Schama skewered. It was the best five minutes of TV for a long time. It was only fair after how David Starkey has been vilified for having right wing opinions.

  • Maureen Fisher

    I am currently in Spain. As one Spaniard pointed out to me – we don’t have a problem with immigration – there’s no work here and no welfare.

  • Clive

    …But we listened to the clamorous minority, despite their lack of reason and logic — and many more migrants have drowned as a consequence. …all those who set sail because they expect to be picked up, but drown instead, are the victims of western governments which did the wrong thing for supposedly the right reasons…

    I think the first part of that’s not true but the second part is true. The government did not, as far as I can tell, listen to anyone in Britain. They abdicated responsibility for the problem to the EU. The EU duly killed more migrants.

    Angela Merkel seems to have given up on the EU, a new line for her. Germany has been breaking EU rules anyway (what’s new) on migrants.

    http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/criticism-mounts-of-handling-of-refugee-crisis-by-merkel-a-1056315.html
    …Merkel believes the only way to reduce the number of refugees in Germany is through international efforts to address the problem. As such, the Chancellery is currently pursuing a deal with Turkey to close its European borders to refugees. But it’s clear that Ankara will also want something in return…

    The German ‘invitation’ is turning out to have created a major crisis for all of Europe. I cannot imagine it will stop with the most recent migrants.

    • mohdanga

      Err, the EU killed no one, Muslims living safely in Turkey killed themselves by getting in unseaworthy boats.

      • Solage 1386

        The EU should donate several million pairs of flippers to the refugees still in Turkey……

        • mohdanga

          Isn’t Cameron constantly lobbying for Turkey to be admitted to the EU? Is it not part of NATO? One would think that such a country is a safe haven, but no, not to the multiculti idiots.

          • Clive

            Turkey is becoming a safe country. Angela has bribed them with easy visas for the EU.

      • Clive

        The EU killed them by encouraging them to get into the boats in the first place by rescuing them and letting them live wherever they arrived at

  • Liberanos

    Stalin was a human being.

    • Clive

      Stalin actually means ‘man of steel’. He was a robot no doubt of the Borg.

      His real name was Iosif Vissarionovich Dzhugashvili but he probably didn’t want the Russian to know he was Georgian which that characteristic ‘..vili’ ending indicates.

      • Solage 1386

        Would Stalin be vili-fied if it were known?

  • Damaris Tighe

    I’ve always wondered about this fallback argument that migrants are ‘human beings’. I’ve also seen Muslim (Arab? Palestinian?) posters protest that they are ‘human beings’. It puzzles me because I have not for one millisecond doubted that migrants & Palestinians are my fellow humans. It seems to be a fallback demand that we switch from rational argument to full-on emoting.

    • Clive

      Well, I always feel as though all human beings are pretty much the same, cultural influences make us different.

      The problem is that we in the West got lucky by our place of birth and we want to hang on to that luck, like the wealthy everywhere.

      In a way, we are beginning a world-wide equivalent to the Putney Debates. They were held towards the end of the English Civil War. They included the Levellers represented by Colonel Rainsborough. The Levellers were proto-communists.

      They argued about fundamental problems with democracy, like if everyone has the vote, why should the majority who had no property not take property away from those who have it ? Good point.

      I believe that, at least in part, led to the electorate consisting only of property owners. The principle was that you had to have an investment in society to decide its course.

      In modern times I suppose it is why the UN General Assembly has little power.

      • mohdanga

        “The problem is that we in the West got lucky by our place of birth and we want to hang on to that luck, like the wealthy everywhere.”
        Yes, the West’s wealth just appeared magically, no work, sweat, toil, sacrifice went into building modern Western societies. Muslim countries contain vast wealth and oil, yet they are backwards and regressive. And you can bet if the positions were reversed they would do NOTHING to help the West.

        • ButcombeMan

          The Arabs got lucky first, they had sophisticated societies before we did and great learning before we did.

          • mohdanga

            And they squandered it. Not our fault, I’m afraid.

          • ButcombeMan

            Indeed. Maybe the religion of peace they mostly adopted assisted that squandering?

          • mohdanga

            Probably. Muslims don’t create, they destroy.

          • Mr B J Mann

            Really?

            Didn’t they just enslave sophisticated societies and the greatly learned?!

          • ExiledOnMainStreet

            Right. But then they froze at that point and did not progress, while the West did. It’s rather sad that Muslim Spain was the the high point of Arab civilization. (And even in Muslim Spain, Christians and Jews were not considered equal to Muslims.)

            Read Bernard Lewis for insights as to why the Muslim world stagnated, while Christian Europe advanced.

            And now large parts of the Islamic/Arab world are regressing. Look at pictures of Cairo and Damascus in the ’60’s and you won’t see women wearing tents and covering their faces. Fundamentalism is just fine with progressives when it is Islamic and not Christian.

          • Solage 1386

            And then then the silly goatfuckers threw it all away……

        • ExiledOnMainStreet

          That is why I find Schama’s position so astonishing. He is a scholar and is well acquainted with the history of the West. He knows very well that our civilization was built over the course of many generations. How can he not realize that bringing in huge numbers of people who profess a faith at odds with Western values endangers that civilization? It is not that difficult to grasp,

          • mohdanga

            Notice how all the clapping seals in the audience never volunteered their houses and neighbourhoods to settle these ‘refugees’?? Nor once mentioned that their Muslim brothers in mega rich countries like Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Qatar, UAE take any in?? Saudi Arabia is on Syria’s border yet does NOTHING…but the West must be responsible. These are the same chumps that demand ‘the West stop sticking their noses in other countries affairs’.

        • Clive

          Yes, the West’s wealth just appeared magically, no work, sweat, toil, sacrifice went into building modern Western societies.

          If you were talking about the child of a wealthy industrialist, say, you would say he was lucky to have been born rich.

          We are the beneficiaries of our forebears, it does not make us any less lucky.

  • MikeH

    Rod and Schama’s clash was left tantalisingly incomplete; partly as Schama employed the ubiquitous lefty tactic of shouting over any views that may stimulate the onset of cognitive dissonance, partly by Dimbleby’s tactic of interrupting any guest that may stimulate the onset of his own non PC, non BBC-line cognitive dissonance.

    Would dearly love to see Schama and his ilk presented with real-world immigration issues and see them attempt to offer real solutions rather than vapid virtue signalling.

    He should have joined me last week on my dual doctors’ surgery appointments. A blood test at 9.15am followed by a GP appointment at 9.30am. At 9am they were queuing out the door; a mixture of Asians, Africans and Eastern Europeans, nearly all in family groups. Once inside it actually resembled a refugee centre: kids running crazily around, open mouth coughing and the utterly mind bending cacophony of competing, multiple dialects.

    One was finally seen for said blood test at 10.15am, the actual appointment at 11.30am. A dizzying array of foreign names and families being called and shuffling around the waiting room. There were two other vaguely English sounding names bar mine out of probably fifty family groups that morning; quite overwhelming.

    As I entered the (Indian) Doctor’s room she apologised for the lengthy wait. I tentatively suggested their were a lot of immigrant families in the waiting room and was this causing the delays? She looked at me most exasperated and said ‘yes and they’re asking us to accept hundreds more’

    • adonbilivit

      I’m nicking this ta

    • mohdanga

      It’s like that here in Canada, too. Healthcare system overwhelmed by nattering 3rd world enrichers fresh off the plane, taking advantage of a system they have never contributed to nor will not in the future. But the solution is more of them…..at least according to the politicians.

  • The_greyhound

    As usual Mr Liddle is letting the facts get in the way. Schama, like so many of his kind, suspends rational facilities and indulge in a good self-righteous (indeed sanctimonious) wallow. This is the modern way – the feminisation of the public discourse.

    There’s just one thing puzzles me – why “bien pensant” when thought had clearly so little to do with it?

    • Mongo

      bien pensants rigidly stick to a fashionable view without using any critical thinking

    • MacGuffin

      ‘Bien pensant’ because the French, contrary to popular belief, do occasionally do irony.

  • FrankS2

    Angele Merkel’s recent and hastily withdrawn open invitation to migrants, with no thought as to how they would reach Europe, must have gladdened the flinty hearts of people smugglers.

  • Dr Bock

    I strongly suspect that the moral narcissists most ardently pro ‘something’ being done, which seems to be allowing more traumatised Islamists from communities which find it more difficult to integrate into our Godless western society, won’t personally experience the downside of the ‘policy’ they advance. Not for them extra people coming into a dysfunctional Eurozone, or our housing market, to say nothing of the increased probability that, at some point, some of these migrants, enraged at our racism – racism of an odd kind, allowing them in, paying some benefits, not putting them in a death camp or lynching anyone – and refusal to adhere to their God will blow some of us up during our already awful commutes (again, overcrowding of strained infrastructure), or perhaps less unjustifiably lay terroristic siege to our soulless shopping centres, there, I confess they may have a point. But maybe I’m being too pessimistic, perhaps some of them may go Charlie Hebdo on the London Review of Books, or The Guardian, and then the Schamas of this world can adopt a hashtag, and refuse to engage in the awkward reality underpinning such an outrage. Law of unintended consequences, innit?

  • Revd Robert West

    I would say that immigration is a sin, which is something that the current episcopal bench of the Church of England would not say, because they do not believe in sin. But if you look at our charter, the Holy Bible, you will see that God has made the genealogical nations (Psalm 86: 9; that He has separated them into their own countries (Genesis 10: 5, 20, 31, 32 with Deuteronomuy 32: 8); that He has appointed their boundaries and the times of their habitation (Acts 17: 26); that they are each to bring their distinctive glory into the kingdom of God (Revelation 21: 26); and that Christian missionaries are to go into the world to disciple all these nations, not bring them to England (Matthew 28: 19, Mark 16: 15). The problem with the Episcopal Bench is they have no theology. They lack the ability to teach, just like the half-educated Education System do. Bad thought has characterised Britain since the 1950s at least: it is high time we brought our brains back into gear. I pray God we do so soon, and that He will deliver us from such imbeciles.

    • adonbilivit

      I agree with you mostly but you’re on shaky ground quoting the OT. On that basis can’t I be stoned to death for adultery, or for mixing cotton and linen, or something?

      • Revd Robert West

        This is a perceptive question. The answer is that the Old Testament is not all one seam; it has many seams. The seam to which you refer, and object, is the Mosaic law given to the Israelites to run their Church and State. It is quite harsh on adultery and it is quite ritualistic on some matters, but both of these parts of the law of Moses have been done away with in Christ in the New Testament. My answer is twofold therefore: part of the Mosaic law is moral and still abides, such as, the fact that adultery is wrong, as is murder. The moral parts match the natural law given to all and are easily discerned. Secondly, large parts of the Old Testament have nothing to do with the law of Moses (ritual, State, or moral) and are simply a record of God’s deeds for all mankind. The fact of nations foredates both the law of Moses and the calling of the Jews (the sons of Jacob), and that is the division of mankind into genealogical nations. That is repeated in the New Testament ,and, even so, it still applies, as it is not part of the State or Ritual aspect of the Law of Moses, which is now done away with in Christ even for the Jews.

        • Solage 1386

          But what if God doesn’t exist and the Bible is wrong? You’ll have wasted your life!

          • Revd Robert West

            I think Occam dealt with this issue. He felt that the risk of everlasting damnation was, in its consequences so great, that a man ought to repent and become a Christian anyway; and that, in any case, such righteous living induced by such a choice, was so beneficial to all, that it was worth it in any case. What made me a Christian, however, was not this line of reasoning, but a whole series of arguements answering objections to the Bible and the faith of Christ. I accepted those arguemnts as valid, and so became a Christian, I believe, on reasonable grounds. The Bible is, I believe on reasonable and historical grounds, right; and God – as Anthony Flew has of late acknowledged – does, I believe, exist.

  • Liberanos

    Mr Schama should have been asked if 100 million immigrants would be a good number for Britain to accept. He would surely reply that this figure was ridiculous. Which would demonstrate that immigration was not, after all, solely a matter of principle with him. Numbers mattered…which is all Mr Liddle and most people were saying. It was just that Mr Schama would set the number higher than others.

    • Clive

      I fear he would have replied in that inimitable emotional way ‘it’s not about numbers, it’s about humanity’ at which point Mr Liddle would have had my permission to smack him

      • Mongo

        numbers wouldn’t matter to Simon – he lives in one of the wealthiest and most exclusive suburbs of New York, and thus won’t have to suffer any of the consequences of what happens over here. He almost makes Russell Brand seem reasonable

        • cartimandua

          The USA is of course huge and the UK already has twice the population of Canada.

          “Briarcliff Manor /ˈbraɪərklɪf/ is a suburban village in Westchester County, New York, around 30 miles (50 km) north of New York City. It is on 5.9 square miles (15 km2) of land on the east bank of the Hudson River, geographically shared by the towns of Mount Pleasant and Ossining. Briarcliff Manor includes the communities of Scarborough and Chilmark, and is served by the Scarborough station of the Metro-North Railroad’s Hudson Line. A section of the village,”

          Its all spacious and lovely in Briarcliff Manor. A lot of the homes are over a million dollars or just under it.

          • ExiledOnMainStreet

            And many of those homes are 5,000 sq. feet and house only 2 or 3 people, since Westchester County housewives don’t pump out a lot of babies. That means that if they really want to show they care they can take in some of those poor refugees themselves. Schama probably has enough space to fit in at least a few nice young men.

          • cartimandua

            I used to live in Westchester. US houses are vast compared to ours absolutely vast.
            So a supposedly clever man looks around his own setting and sees lots of space. He then assumes the UK is the same.
            We are the size of Idaho with twice the population of Canada.

    • Suzy61

      I use this argument myself. At the point when they are stupid enough to say “oh – at least a million’ I like to ask them what about poor old migrant number 1,000,001? Why is he not as deserving as number 999,999?

      It is very much a numbers game.

      • mdj

        Nobody ever seems to mention that, like most of the troubled countries in the Middle East, Syria’s population has quadrupled in fifty years. We could take 500,000 a year each from Iraq,Iran, Syria, Turkey and Ethiopia, changing our culture and living standard for ever, without making the slightest difference in those countries.

        • Mr B J Mann

          A century ago Ethiopia had 5 million starving people.

          Now thanks to the caring sharing West, Ethiopia has 100 million starving people!

        • Mr B J Mann

          A century ago Ethiopia had 5 million starving people.

          Now thanks to the caring sharing West, Ethiopia has 100 million starving people!

    • ButcombeMan

      But Schama lives in the US, not Britain

      • ExiledOnMainStreet

        He lives in Westchester County, which is basically a very affluent suburb of NYC. Bill and Hillary Clinton live there – it is a stronghold of lily white progressives who know what is best for everyone else. If a band of Syrian “refugees” went tramping through Westchester County, I can assure you that the residents would be calling the police in a panic, reporting suspicious characters.

  • Mongo

    Rod you conducted yourself with dignity and reason in the face of a typically biased audience and a frankly deranged champagne-socialist historian.

    It’s a pity, I used to admire Schama’s programmes. I had no idea he was such a furious hypocrite

    roll on tonight’s QT with Farage…

    • MacGuffin

      I heard a lot of applause in the audience for Rod’s remarks.

  • Marie

    Rod,
    Keep on speaking the truth! The ludicrous “holier than thou” migrant advocates are naive, stupid, and arrogant.

    • Guest 1

      The real truth is that it is not ‘migration’, but the colonization of Europe by Arabs and Africans. Colonization – when did that ever go well for indigenous peoples? No more colonization !

  • cartimandua

    Watched a bit yes indeed Mr Liddle. Does Schama think there is an off button and people will stop wanting to leave poor unpleasant places?

  • Doug

    Schama is just another “chosenite” pushing for the eradication of white people. Happily, more and more people are waking up to the fact that the so called “refugee crisis” is in fact an invasion and sooner or later they’ll cotton on to who’s behind it (spoiler: it’s the same chosen people who have aided and assisted just about every invasion of Europe and our peoples over the last 2000 years).

    • Monkish

      Stupid, anti-semitic comment. I too am a “chosen one” – in your ignorant terms – and I vigorously oppose taking in Syrian refugees. As for your narrative of European history, it’s so ludicrous I wonder if you’d even pass a basic citizenship test in this country. You’d be quite happy in Syria though… Thought about swapping places with a meritorious Yazidi?

      • Doug

        Go tell it to the SS, yid.

        • Monkish

          That doesn’t even make sense as an insult. Someone call Adolph, one of his knuckle-dragging SA untermenschen got away!

          • Doug

            Uh huh. Whatever.

            PS you spell it Adolf

          • Caractacus

            I’ve got it. You’re an Arab in disguise?

          • Doug

            Oh bad luck! But thanks for playing, anyway!

          • Caractacus

            Still bitter about getting that community chest card? Go straight to the Gas Chambers. Do not pass Go. Do not collect £200.

          • Doug

            What gas chambers would those be then?

        • John Hampden

          A pathetic and vicious response.

          • Doug

            Yes, you are pathetic.

    • ExiledOnMainStreet

      The Jews aided and assisted the Germans during the Battle of Britain?

      Oh, sure, that makes sense – if you’re a raving anti-semitic loon.

    • Solage 1386

      Anti-Semites should all be gassed. Afterwards, we can deny that it has occurred.

      • Doug

        Ah, the standard fallback of the Chosenites and their useful idiots: muh Holocaust.

        Ask yourself this, if Jews are such a huge benefit why did the Holocaust happen? And why, indeed, were Jews kicked out out countries 108 times prior to that?

        They weren’t just baking cakes, right?

  • sidor

    It is amazing that Schama is supposed to represent (whatever) science. A scientific approach is based on logic and facts; arguments appealing to the audience’s emotions is demagoguery.

    • UKSteve

      Not a scientist. A historian.

      • WTF

        And not a very good one at that as he obviously hasn’t learned anything form history !

  • Monkish

    Rod could easily have demolished Schama by asking him if he thought Israel – a prosperous and politically stable democracy close to Schama’s heart – should help share the refugee burden given its proximity to Syria and the fact that the Goland, a sizeable chunk of northern Israel, is occupied Syrian land. No doubt Schama would have given some mealy-mouthed answer about Syria being Israel’s enemy, and would then have been exposed for his hypocrisy. Why should the UK expose itself to the destabilizing effects of mass migration and not Israel?

    • Penny

      Syrians aren’t likely to go to Israel because it would reduce their chances of going home safely if and when the war ends. They would be close enough to do so. Israel set up field hospitals on the border to treat the wounded and sick, some of whom had to receive further treatment in Israel proper. These people had to remain anonymous for fear of reprisals when they went home.

      Israel has already absorbed refugees from the Arab world – including Syria – when these countries either expelled or caused to flee their own Jewish populations. They would very likely take the Syrian Druze.

      But why Israel and the UK anyway? Why not, say, Malaysia or Brazil?

      • WTF

        Why not Saudi or the UAE who are awash with petro-dollars and speak the same language and have the same religion ?

        • Penny

          Well, quite, WTF! There are what – some 192 countries in the world? Why is it assumed that only some of them have a moral responsibility to their fellow man? Why don’t we even think of Colombia, say, or Indonesia or, as you say, the UAE.

          I appreciate that many of the 192 countries are poor but those who are, as you say, awash with petro dollars, could sponsor refugees thereby lessening the burden on other countries. (Saudi Arabia providing mosques isn’t quite the kind of sponsorship I have in mind, either!)

  • Bill Kenny

    Dear Rod may I suggest there is not a right or wrong side of history merely right and wrong historians.

  • Monkish

    Wish I had been in audience. I would have asked Schama in a quiet, reasonable tone if he believes letting in a several hundreds of thousands of people who have been suckled on Assad’s Baath party fascist ideology was really consistent with the interests of British Jews, let alone the rest of the British population.

    • sidor

      Wrong question. Those who escape the Assad army advance are the defeated ISIS butchers. Perfect material for future terrorist acts in Britain.

  • Monkish

    Wish I had been in audience. I would have asked Schama in a quiet, reasonable tone if he believes letting in a several hundreds of thousands of people who have been suckled on Assad’s Baath party fascist ideology was really consistent with the interests of British Jews, let alone the rest of the British population.

  • WTF

    Excellent and in keeping with that other tired lame excuse from the libturds that its all our fault that teenage Muslims go off on Club Jihadi breaks rather than their parents fault, radical clerics at their mosques or even the fact that since they could talk they’ve been fed with Islamic drivel about conquering the world.

    Keep it up Rod, the majority are behind you !

  • agdpa

    Lost all respect for Schama who came across as a total plonker

  • Tom M

    Why didn’t anyone ask why all these young men aren’t clamouring to get organised and go back to fight for their country?

    • damon

      So which army faction should they join?

    • ViolinSonaten b minor.

      And what of the women and children have they just been left behind, abandoned ?

  • Christian

    Love the woman who announced these young men are pathfinders, paving the way for their entire family to follow. Beautifully makes the point that we need to multiply the numbers here now by six at the very least.

    • fundamentallyflawed

      If I remember this point was widely cheered on QT…

      • Mr B J Mann

        Is that why so many women and children drown in the Med?

        The “Pathfinders” are forging ahead taking all the life jackets?!

    • mohdanga

      If their ‘Pathfinders’ maybe we can take the same approach that the Germans did in WWII to the Pathfinders of the US and British Air Forces….shoot them down.

  • John Thomas

    “fit young men ” – apparently the BBC has “debunked” this “myth”, and actually the refugees are really all women and children. Yes, people are drowning – many are Christians who are thrown overboard by other – Muslim – refugees, but the bien pensant crowd couldn’t care.

  • IAmRand

    From what was visible to me it was a good article, can’t see what beef you have with Starkey though.

    • WTF

      I agree, Starkey might be very self opinionated but his opinions sit well with the majority.

      • Caractacus

        Starkey delivered the best putdown ever to the non entity Laurie Penny. Schama tried to emulate him and failed miserably

    • Simon Fay

      I think it was Starkey’s glib prescription on ‘QT’ for mass job-seeking internal migration a la ‘The Grapes Of Wrath’ (with more rain) that got Rod’s goat. I enjoy DS too, but balked at that.

      • IAmRand

        What did he say?

  • Suzy61

    ‘Incandescent with pique’….what a perfect description Rod.

    I thought he was going squeak himself to death.

    • WTF

      One can hope.

    • MacGuffin

      I don’t think I have ever heard the word ‘actually’ (an obvious filler used by someone whol wants to talk but has nothing to say) used so many times in just a few sentences, actually, and actually not by someone who is, actually, as educated and supposedly articulate, actually, as Schama, actually.

      • Suzy61

        Actually, I noticed that also 🙂

  • WTF

    I applaud everyone who come up with awkward questions to ask liberal fantasists like Schama but sadly, just like libturd posters here, you’ll never get a straight answer. Here are the most common questions that libturds can’t answer.

    http://townhall.com/columnists/johnhawkins/2013/04/20/20-questions-liberals-cant-answer-n1573545

    Here are the usual answers we hear from libturds –

    “That isn’t the question” when asked how are we going to cope with mass immigration

    “Where is your compassion” when asked who is going to pay for mass immigration.

    “We must help these people” when asked where are the wives and children.

    And the one question no one has dared to ask the libturds yet “With 80% of economic migrants being young men with an obviously high sexual drive, where are they going to get release” –

    Malmo or Rotherham anyone ? Perhaps they should be placed in camps near the Reeperbahn, Hamburg where they can be better policed and health checks can be enforced !

    http://staging.rushlimbaugh.com/daily/2015/09/14/europe_wakes_up_to_reality_of_migrant_invasion

  • Freddythreepwood

    Excellent Rod. Missed the programme as I won’t watch it any more. Will see if I can find the Schama antics on YouTube.

  • FriendlyFire

    It’s because they feel guilty, Rod, about being affluent. While all the poor people are at arms length in Africa and such, they feel terribly guilty and wring their hands and donate to Oxfam, etc. But when those poor people get to the borders of Europe, the guilt can no longer be assuaged by a few donations and some worthy words. So they protest that “more must be done” because this makes them feel less guilty.

    They are uncomfortable with the realities of cohesive, industrialised and structured western societies creating wealth in greater quantities than other less cohesive, less industrialised and less structured non-western societies. It all just seems “so unfair”! Hence they end up wanting to sabotage those western societies, in the mistaken belief that making Europe poor will somehow help Africa. When obviously it won’t; it will do the opposite. But so long as we’re all poor together then at least that’s “fair”. Hence “socialism” and “internationalism” fit together so well – they’re both about bringing everyone down to a common – and lower – level.

    • WTF

      I’d question whether the likes of Schama actually feel so guilty they would donate to Oxfam or any other aid charity as their raison d’etre is to make others pay for their self loathing and faux guilt. Honest compassion is only seen from people like real aid workers who don’t make a fan fare about injustices or deprivation and we only hear about them when they are sadly butchered by Muslim extremists in the middle east.

  • The_greyhound

    There’s also the increasingly frumpy Bettany Hughes, a TV “ancient historian” who always has some feminist crap to slop up while displaying a revealing inability to pronounce accurately the names of Greeks she presumes to tell us about. Then there’s the quaint little body with the rhotacism who’s very good on frocks, but doesn’t know the year of queen Anne’s accession. And the BBC has complete casts of lady “historians” (purveyors of bodice rippers in fact) to waffle on about the Tudors. And don’t forget the most opinionated and publicity hungry romantic novelist of all, Hilary Mantel.

    • ablanche

      Marvellous.

    • tamimisledus

      Bettany Hughes, my original and so far only nomination for “Naked Historian”, just chooses from stories of times gone past whatever suits her particular thesis. When anyone does that, whether they (or others) call themselves historians, it is not history it is fiction. When she does that in respect of islam, it is not history it is delusion.

  • WTF

    Just released on the marketplace is the ultimate gadget for talk shows like Question time.

    Inspired by the BBC radio show called “Just a Minute” is the new “LibCollar”, a device designed to deter hesitation, deviation or repetition by libturds on talk shows like Question Time.

    Features – 3 modes, vibration mode when hesitating, a mild shock when refusing to answer the question and major shock when changing the subject.

    Adjustable collar to fit all ego sizes.

    Automatic power saver mode to maximize usage

    LEDs light up when activated

    10 levels of shock for repeat offenders

    Audience participation guaranteed through wireless remotes with up to 1000 feet range

    • E.I.Cronin

      Love it! Can I order one for Clive?

      And does it come with batteries?

      • Clive

        Oh thanks everso. I’ll treasure it

  • Picquet

    No doubt, Mr L, that your comment during the first minutes of that video clip are among the most reasoned and intelligent that I’ve heard among a vast waterfall of bullshit and eyewash over the past months. My previous respect for S Schama remains for his intellect and academic explanations of our history, but has dimmed deeply for his inability to combat his prejudice. Many thanks.

  • George

    Good article.

    It’s reassuring to know that there are some folk out there in the media who can see through the insincerity of characters like Schama.

    By the way, there’s nothing new in all this. Dickens nailed the Simon Schamas and Mary Beards of his day in his character Mrs Jellyby, with her telescopic philanthropy.

    • Lamia

      I think Schama is sincere. It’s just that he substituted emotion for logic and was desperately signalling his virtue like some others on the panel and in the audience. I note that when the Scot in the audience asked the reasonable question of why Arab League members weren’t doing more (in fact in some case anything at all) to help their fellow Arabs, there was zero interest. This was a virtuous self-flagellation contest that did nothing to really address how the problem can or should be solved to help real refugees. Count me out.

      • tamimisledus

        You mean as in the “Road to hell is paved with sincere intentions”

      • Donafugata

        Schama spoke of the experiences of his family, as Jews escaping the Holocaust which may account for his hysteria.

        However, he insults all those Jewish refugees when he likens their plight to the current hordes of economic opportunists.

        • ataturkey

          “However, he insults all those Jewish refugees when he likens their plight to the current hordes of economic opportunists.”

          And of course he ignores the irony that his good feelings towards the migrants are, in most cases, most certainly not reciprocated towards him as a Jew. His good and merciful heart will end up making the Jews of Europe the next wave of people to have to run for their lives.

  • MacGuffin

    I’d like to see a one-on-one debate between Liddle and Schama, in the style of Clegg v Farage.

    • WTF

      Wouldn’t we all in fact I’d like a one on one between Starkey & Schama as well as I’m sure Starkey would destroy Schama ! Starkey understands history, Schama doesn’t !

      • MacGuffin

        I meant I’d like to see a debate between them about the migrant crisis, and immigration in general.

    • Jesus H Corbyn

      I would pay to see that but I suspect Little doesn’t have the balls to participate

  • Jesus H Corbyn

    finally Mr.Piddle crawls out from the rock he’s been hiding behind this past week to give his response to a very public humiliation

    that he has to resort to personal insults to describe Schama says it all – a learned intellectual and a respected academic faced with an uncouth Boris-Johnson lookalike.

    sorry Piddle, you were severely trounced on Question Time. I don’t think Prof Schama will be losing any sleep over this article!

    • Cobbett

      Fuck off.

    • Mike Hayes

      Meanwhile, back on planet Earth….

    • Suzy61

      Jesus Corbyn….you must have been on some good stuff when you watched it.

      Any going spare?

      • Jesus H Corbyn

        do I look like a drug dealer to you? Try your local Tory HQ if you want to score some good stuff

        • E.I.Cronin

          well you’re peddling a highly addictive, hallucinogenic ideology that’s socially and financially ruinous so yes – you do look like a drug dealer. heh.

        • Suzy61

          I don’t know what you look like Jesus… just an EU flag (sadly).

        • ViolinSonaten b minor.

          Isn’t it past your bedtime, your mummy aught not let you play with computers.
          Off you toddle.

    • blandings

      “sorry Piddle, you were severely trounced on Question Time.”

      Oh do stop it Simon.

    • nicnac

      “…has to resort to personal insults…” No sense of irony then? You pathetic halfwit.

      • Jesus H Corbyn

        is that you, Fiddle?

        • nicnac

          Praise indeed! Even from a prick like you; and let me say, your unintentionally funny posts have got me chuckling here.

      • ViolinSonaten b minor.

        They say those who insult do so because they have no arguments, what a totally
        obnoxious ill- mannered oaf.

    • nancledra

      Schama’s earnest predictability and de haut en bas tone throughout the show were quite funny but his wrist-flapping tantrum was priceless. Quite unable to deal with the notion that, actually, it doesn’t greatly matter what he feels – rather than thinks what ought to be done, seriously -about the whole tragic mess. His closest friends are his publicist and his agent, I guess.

    • Andrew Cole

      It was the other way round I’m afraid. Schama’s inability to control his limbs and the sheer panic on his face when someone didn’t agree with his NY suburban charity for all opinions showed through. That is why Rod stopped trying. Schama resorted to insults.

  • Cobbett

    Mary Beard is a total prat – She was on the radio claiming some nonsense about Rome being open to migrants and refugees and the reason it fell was because it ended up refusing them(Germanic tribes) entry(when it was in chaos)…a ”cautionary tale” she called it, then went on to compare it to those parasites in Calais…like not letting them in will lead to violent downfall. Ugly cow.

    • Jesus H Corbyn

      in what way are they parasites?

      • mohdanga

        Err, they don’t work or integrate, they commit crime, they can’t wait to bring the rest of their freeloading brood over, they scam social services, they use social services without ever paying in, drive up the need for housing and health care. Need any more examples?

  • Mike Hayes

    Your coup de gras at the end about class, was just perfect. Sir, I salute you! *salutes*

    • MacGuffin

      I loved the ‘Ooooooooooh!’ from the audience.

      By the way, it’s a ‘coup de grace’. I apologise, I cannot help myself.

  • Scradje

    A good exchange between Rod and the blatherer. But how did that sensible-sounding Scot in the audience manage to infiltrate the BBC’s in house swarm of ghastly Labour activists? Remarkable effort.

    • mdj

      They probably assumed he was a Scot Nat; stereotyping can let you down sometimes.

  • Great stuff Rod, thought you put the insufferable little snob down most elegantly.

  • pw1927

    “The charity immediately curtailed its relief efforts”

    http://www.hrf.org.uk/clarification-on-calais/

    You’re a lying cunt Liddle……

    • Jesus H Corbyn

      good find!

      • blandings

        Er…Unfortunately not.

    • E.I.Cronin

      No he isn’t – read the article carefully. Their first report by an individual they now claim had less than a day’s experience in the camp was the one Rod referred to. They’ve revised their statement…

      • pw1927

        No you read my post …the charity has plainly not immediately curtailed its relief efforts has it?

        • blandings

          I did.
          Your wriggling.

          • pw1927

            Clearly…………because

            “We will continue to coordinate efforts and have a presence in the camp
            whilst we have the capacity and will be building communal kitchens and
            portable shower units for camp residents.”

            means they’ve packed up and gone home doesn’t it?

            And my wriggling what? Do you mean ‘you’re wriggling’ ?

            Now fuck off and stop wasting my time….

          • E.I.Cronin

            Blandings right – you are wriggling. Rod referred to the original statement made by HRF that the people in Calais were economic migrants and had no genuine claim. Suddenly the statements withdrawn and relief work continues? Peculiar coming after an explosive debate on QT. I would want to see their original statement before passing judgement on whether he’s lying or not.

          • pw1927

            Wriggling Blandings…what do you think? What on earth are you talking about? No really, I have no fucking idea…is there something wrong with your internet you seem to be looking at a completely different thing……

          • Jesus H Corbyn

            and this original statement is where?

            in Piddle’s fevered imagination I bet

          • E.I.Cronin

            Read the statement by HRF that I’ve quoted above.

          • blandings

            “Now fuck off and stop wasting my time….”

            I’m not wasting your time – you are.

          • pw1927

            You’re right…you can’t educate pork after all…

          • blandings

            “you can’t educate pork after all..”

            Ah! I think you’ve blown your cover.

          • pw1927

            Do you know what you mean, because I certainly don’t…or is that some reflex response because you couldn’t think of anything remotely clever?

          • ViolinSonaten b minor.

            Oh dear pw1927, swimming in the shallow end of the gene pool, yet again.

          • pw1927

            You know the gene pool is not an actual pool, don’t you? Do you have any thoughts at all…opinion maybe……or just cliched drivel?

          • ViolinSonaten b minor.

            Oh really, gosh, I didn’t know that. I feel much wiser for this little chat.
            And no thoughts for you, wisdom is wasted on the ignorant .

          • pw1927

            Honestly? That’s all you’ve got to say?

          • blandings

            It’s a metaphor – a rhetorical device. She is using it to mock you.

          • blandings

            Oh dear, how obtuse you are. I was referring to your pork obsession.

          • ViolinSonaten b minor.

            Wild boars will fly past my window ‘pw1927 ‘makes any sense and a rather
            obsession.

          • pw1927

            ?? Is this a code?

        • mdj

          Interesting that they don’t want us to know, even via refutation, what that person said! I wonder whether Liddle screen-grabbed it.

          • pw1927

            You’re stretching the meaning of the word ‘interesting’ there a bit….what the person said was widely reported, eg http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3262220/UK-charity-considers-cutting-aid-Jungle-Calais-visiting-camp-deciding-migrants-no-real-reason-leave-home-country.html
            (and that article references it being on ITV as well)…so on the same day, the charity issues a clarification……don’t really need a screen grab……and I’m not terribly surprised that in the circumstances they don’t feel the need to repeat verbatim what the fella said…

            The point being really that they didn’t immediately curtail their activities…ergo Liddle is a lying cunt…

          • E.I.Cronin

            Thanks for supplying the original article. Which clearly states the charity is considering curtailing their aid and diverting it to Turkey, Jordan and Lebanon. The only mistake Rod made is pre-empting their decision to cease aid in Calais. A very understandable assumption. The statements from the HRF executive Tokan suggests that they are indeed primarily economic migrants.

            So a BBC/QT prime time programme invites a well-known journalist who mentions the HRF decision and several days later they withdraw Tokan’s statements and decide to continue work in Calais? Hmmm…

            Liddle wasn’t lying and you’re just trolling.

          • pw1927

            Fascinating but somewhat fanciful theory really……since both the DM article and the clarification are dated 06/10/2015, some time before the QT appearance and this article…..so not so much ‘pre-empting’, more lying really ….

          • E.I.Cronin

            I didn’t check the dates – am happy to admit I’m wrong on that point. I still want to hear Rod’s story before passing judgement. He simply may not have seen the retraction.

            Ps also the retraction is vague and doesn’t give detailed information about why Tokan’s original statements about the migrants at Calais were untrue. I’m still suspicous but admit Rod and Schama’s debate had nothing to do with it.

          • pw1927

            Fair enough….I think the issue is really about the misrepresentation of Tokan’s views as being those of the charity….(when that is about as accurate as my views being taken to represent the views of The Spectator comments page)……It wasn’t/isn’t the case; if RL is learning of those views from either ITV or DM then it is at least careless to use them to attempt to give his argument traction on QT, but is highly disingenuous to rely on them in this article, when any decent journalist would do some basic fact checking.

            I absolutely stand by my original assertion and the choice of language as I’m certain RL would appreciate the “Anglo-Saxon” idiom……..

        • mdj

          Interesting that they don’t want us to know, even via refutation, what that person said! I wonder whether Liddle screen-grabbed it.

        • nicnac

          You overplayed your hand didn’t you? Your attempt to characterize RL as a liar has been demolished by other posters. Off you go.

          • pw1927

            Demolished by other posters? Really? I’ve seen nothing resembling a coherent counter argument….perhaps you would like to elaborate?

  • Augustus

    We need to get out of the EU, because that bureaucratic monster wants to break up the nation states by saturating them with migrants from far and wide. Traditional national cultures and customs are to be watered down. Feelings of national pride are to be melted down into an obscure mixture of different cultures. And when the nation states have finally been destroyed their power will be absolute.

    • Jesus H Corbyn

      do you actually believe all that paranoid tin foil hat codswallop?

      all I constantly hear is that there is a global conspiracy to destroy white people… sure.

      Take your meds, man. All these Spectator commenters need to up their meds

      • ViolinSonaten b minor.

        No we need to leave the EU for economic and business reasons.
        It was a political experiment gone wrong, doesn’t represent the countries of Europe,
        steals their taxes, dictates to them and never represents them.
        How on earth thought countries as economically, socially and morally different as
        Germany and Greece should share a currency .

        • pw1927

          Hmmmm, you’d probably have been better advised to leave this one to your older sibling Violin Sonaten B major….well done on the whole ‘cliched drivel’ thing though you’ve really packed them in here ……a few things….”economic and business reasons”…what do you mean ? Is there a distinction to be made? What reasons would you suggest are discreetly business reasons and which are discreetly economic? I can’t imagine you’ve used extra words *just* to make your piss poor argument sound a little more substantial……
          “It was a political experiment gone wrong etc…” what exactly are you talking about here? The EU as a whole? The institutions? You’d get some mileage from arguing that the European Commission is unrepresentative…but what about the European parliament? Any distinction to be made?

          Your ‘point’ (for want of a better word) about the the Euro might be worth some further exploration, but regrettably you have used the phrase ‘morally different’ when comparing Germany and Greece, which tends to suggest a)that you’ve just used a word for rhetorical purposes, or worse, b) that there is some morality to be ascribed on the basis of nationality…….not sure where you’re going with that one……….In any event you know the EU and membership of the Euro are completely different things don’t you? So there is a bit of a lacuna in your reasoning there…..how about another go….see if you can come back with something that makes sense …..

          • nicnac

            “I can’t imagine you’ve used extra words *just* to make your piss poor argument sound a little more substantial”. What, like writing “discreetly” when you mean discretely.

          • pw1927

            Not really; you’re talking about a spelling mistake, whilst I am referring to the use of tautology to compensate for the paucity of content……..not the same at all when you think about is it?

        • Donafugata

          And while the Mad Mutti invites the hordes in the EU does absolutely nothing when smaller, poorer countries like Slovenia have a problem.

          Not much of a union.

      • MrJones

        divide and rule is as old as the hills

        • ViolinSonaten b minor.

          Indeed.

      • mdj
  • WTF

    Slovenia should send their migrant policing costs to Merkel & Juncker for inciting this debacle !

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3285054/Desperate-Slovenia-brings-tanks-deal-migrant-arrivals-12-000-enter-country-24-hours.html

  • tamimisledus

    muslims wish to see the destruction of Western democracy and its replacement by the totalitarian, anti democratic (which I will use here to stand for a whole raft of regressive customs) doctrine of islam.
    Of course, supporting illegal immigrants from non-muslim backgrounds will have the side effect of helping (even if unwittingly) the muslims in their aims of destroying one part of Western democracy, the UK. But that does mean that there are not much more effective ways for muslims of achieving their ambitions.
    When the muslim charity realised that there were many more refugees from the Middle East muslim countries, who would be much more effective at destroying UK society than the mainly non-muslim immigrants in Calais, they had to find an excuse to get out of Calais. So they came to the conclusion that 97% of the mainly non-muslim immigrants were just economic migrants who did not deserve help from a muslim charity. . This fact must have been obvious to them all along. But now they had an excuse. No more supporting non-muslim migrants at Calais. After all, islam warns in no uncertain terms against helping non-muslims, and muslim charities, albeit with the involuntary support of non-muslim taxpayers, have a duty to usher in the era of world wide islam. They now have an excuse to go and support the muslims in escaping the hell-holes created by islam, and invading Western democracies where they could avail themselves of rich pickings at the same time as undermining the UK.
    So really, Rod, do not place spurious one-sided muslim analysis in any of your pieces. It does nothing but detract from value of your otherwise well thought out piece.

    • pw1927

      That must have taken you ages to type with your face…

      • tamimisledus

        Another mushlim [sic] immediately resorting to personal attacks because they are incapable of providing a rational response.

        • pw1927

          You are an illiterate cretin…your commentary is so utterly riddled with inaccuracy, assumption, generalisation and sheer paranoid bunkum that I just don’t know where to start…….I know I shouldn’t but I just can’t resist….*everything* you have said is sooo riddled with nonsense, it’s just too tempting…

          “muslims wish to see the destruction of Western democracy
          and its replacement by the totalitarian, anti democratic (which I will use here
          to stand for a whole raft of regressive customs) doctrine of islam.”

          All 1.5 Billion muslims want the same thing? In fact the same two things, because they not only demand in unison, “the destruction of Western democracy”, but they *all* insist that it must be replaced by “the totalitarian, anti democratic doctrine of islam”? Love the use of parenthesis
          here, by the way….really gives the impression that you’ve given this some
          thought…..

          “Of course, supporting illegal immigrants from non-muslim backgrounds will havethe side effect of helping (even if unwittingly) the muslims in their aims of
          destroying one part of Western democracy, the UK.”

          Why….or even how?…This is an astonishingly weird thing to say….what on earth are you trying to suggest? I can’t even begin to grasp what point you are trying to make….

          “When the muslim charity realised that there were many more refugees from the Middle East muslim countries, who would be much more effective at destroying UK society than the mainly non-muslim immigrants in Calais, they had to find an excuse to get out of Calais. So they came to the conclusion that 97% of the mainly non-muslim immigrants were just economic migrants who did not deserve help from a muslim charity”

          On what have you based any of these bizarre assertions?. . For
          a start “the muslim charity” to which you refer have not “got out of Calais”……..there is not a single fact in any of this…..it is all hysterical supposition based on what is inside your head rather than what is objectively verifiable……I mean, just what the fuck are you smoking??
          No-one has come to the conclusion “that 97% of the mainly
          non-muslim immigrants were just economic migrants”; for a start they are mainly muslim, (I’ll give you that the Eritreans probably aren’t)…but what have you got to back your view up?

          “This fact must have been obvious to them all along. But now
          they had an excuse. No more supporting non-muslim migrants at Calais.”

          Again very wrong, primarily because the charity is still there….but equally because at what point did they (or anyone else) conduct any detailed research into the religious beliefs of the people at Calais in order for it to have ‘been obvious to them’

          “After all, islam warns in no uncertain terms against helping non-muslims,”

          Where?

          “and muslim charities, albeit with the involuntary support of non-muslim taxpayers,”

          What support from tax payers? They are a charity….your homework is to go
          and research the difference between tax and charitable donation……

          “blah, blah, blah…some bollocks about conquering the world…..”

          Get a grip; you are fucking deranged………

          “So really, Rod, do not place spurious one-sided muslim analysis in any of your pieces. It does nothing but detract from value of your otherwise well thought out piece”

          Rod is a lying, pisshead cunt.

          • Solage 1386

            That must have taken you ages to type with your k.n.o.b…….

          • Richard

            The internal dynamics of Islam are that Islam is content to be represented by fanatics, and the rest are cowed into submission. This is the situation Christianity was in a long, long time ago, Judaism likewise.

            If I saw Muslims protesting against Islamic slavery in North Africa, Islamic destruction of Lebanon, Islamism elsewhere, etc., I would have some sympathy for the idea of a multifarious Islam. But I don’t. I don’t see anything other than a monolithic, imperialistic, intolerant group of people who take their value-system with them. Everywhere in the world they form closed communities, with no give-and-take. Those who might wish to break out of the mould are kept in check by those who wish to retain the mould, and there is simply not enough momentum to challenge anything within. It is a deeply proselytising faith (unlike Judaism, say) and cannot live peaceably among other people.

          • blandings

            Calm down mohamed and try to remember that in civilised countries calling people ” lying, pisshead c*nts” doesn’t constitute an argument, but simply shows the rest of us that you are a barbarian.

          • pw1927

            Yes because that’s all I’ve said isn’t it? Incidentally calling people mohamed doesn’t constitute wit, but simply shows the rest of us that you are a dullard

          • blandings

            “Yes because that’s all I’ve said isn’t it?”
            Apart from your rantings, yes.

            “calling people mohamed doesn’t constitute wit”
            It wasn’t intended as wit. I was merely acknowledging that you are not a civilised human being and cannot be treated as one.

          • KittyR

            You haven’t offered any coherent counter-argument here, just an expletive-littered rant! If you’re going to disagree with the points raised, at least offer some facts to back up your protestations.

  • Stevie Mac

    Niall Ferguson? But then he might write a nasty article about you. Plus he’d be the hardest to beat in an argument…

  • Kasperlos

    The UK along with the EU is ripping itself – itself – apart – not from internal strife fomented by its native inhabitants – but by the illegal migrants. Somehow, not so secretly, the mandarin elites, affect surprise at any backlash where native inhabitants wake up one day to see the collapse of their world. It’s as if each house in the EU has been invaded by unwelcome guests and the husband and wife start to fight not realizing and dealing with the problem: the uninvited guest! It’s mind boggling that there hasn’t been an uprising against the plotters and supporters of unfettered illegal migration.

    • WTF

      There will be and it wont be a pretty sight !

    • Alec Leamas

      Except, in the case of immigration, the wife is engaging in frequent and poorly disguised assignations with the guest in the marital bed, and agitating to accommodate the guest’s dashing friends as well.

  • liamjq

    Watched “wee eck” Salmond on andrew marr last sunday actually used the term CLIMATE JUSTICE…what a total arsehole

  • kyalami
  • gelert

    Schama more like Tourette’s syndrome than Parkinson’s. Also a posturing luvvie, like the other bien- pensants.

    • Frank

      Tourette’s or just very high camp?

      • gelert

        Kenneth Williams redux ?

        • WTF

          Kenneth Williams played on it in comedy and was amusing, the likes of Schama or Beard’s posturing are dangerous, divisive and ferment racism.

  • MathMan

    Rod mentions Mary Beard in this article. I well remember seeing her on QT. There was a question about the number of immigrants in Peterborough. She said: ‘I’ve read a report on this and there isn’t a problem’. A lady in the audience then told her she didn’t know what she was talking about because she, the lady, lived in Peterborough and the place was overwhelmed with immigrants. The National Press decamped to Peterborough the next day and reported guess what? The place was indeed overwhelmed. Beard, Schama et al live in ivory towers and have no idea what is going on in the real world. Another spot-on article by Rod.

    • The Masked Marvel

      Oh, I think both Schama and Beard are well aware of what’s going on. They just loathe and look down upon the people who object to it. When they dismiss the complaints they are in reality dismissing the people making them. Schama’s hypocritical and ironic dig at Liddle was the Question Time panelist equivalent of Emily Thornberry’s sneering tweet about the white van man with the English flags.

      Rod revealed his own snobbery, of course, when claiming moral superiority simply due to the circumstances of his birth.

      • Alec Leamas

        I’m not certain that there isn’t a certain moral superiority inherent in one who loves and lives among his countrymen and reveres its institutions when debating the merits of proposals to change the country by changing its countrymen. It used to be the virtue of patriotism and it was held in high esteem by the aristocracy all the way down to the beggar. But while the old order aristocrats have been brought low, a new order have risen in the academy and media who despise their fellow man and the country he loves.

        • mohdanga

          Yup. Now it’s trendy to criticize your culture and country while lauding the enrichers’ culture, which the enrichers can’t wait to leave because it is so good. We need them here to show us how much our culture can be improved.

        • The Masked Marvel

          Indeed. And these new establishment figures and public elite often seem to confuse their financial and public platform status with moral merit and virtue.

          • Robert Andersen

            I wonder if their confusion is born in their belief that success is defined monetarily? Certainly Bl

      • Sarka

        I don’t agree with your last point. Rod was simply reacting to Schama’s snobbery. And his barb found its target. Schama is an intelligent man and you could see from his slight wince that he realised he had made a mistake in his rhetoric.

        • The Masked Marvel

          I would agree with you if Rod didn’t have form on such ‘reverse’ snobbery. It’s his default mode, not something he came up with on the spur of the moment to get at Schama. I’ll grant you that the perception is probably different for someone not familiar with it.

          • dip

            Rod doesn’t swing his arms around in the air or wobble his head or even twitch, not now that he’s moved right anyway, perhaps he did in his Today days and has attended a de-luvvyprogramming clinic before getting on the Sun and Spec.

          • Sarka

            I’ve followed Rod’s pieces for years, and haven’t liked all of them, but it really isn’t my impression that he is usually the first on the draw with the snob/inverse snob card. He simply – as a result of his background – is a good detector of some of the very snobbish attitudes that – perversely – inform much of what is known as the Metropolitan Left.
            For extreme examples of this, you could do worse than read the comments of Will Self and his wife Deborah Orr on Liddle.. in the Graun in the course of review of his latest book of essays last year. Frankly, no caricature duchess, offended by the presence in the room of “dirty people of no name” could for snobbery quite compete with Self and Orr in their open distaste for the “lower middle class”, Liddle’s association with which they argued to be the source of his obvious “racism”…

            Schama, whom in many other contexts I like, has never been anything like as bad as this, and I think it was a genuine shock to him when Liddle called him on a class/snobbery issue. It was a good call, though, for a great deal of emotional virtue-signalling on the immigration issue is also a kind of social-status-signalling, even where the signallers are not specially conscious of this…

          • The Masked Marvel

            I’d prefer not to read anything by Will Self, thanks, especially on snobbery. Liddle may not always be the first to to bring it up, but he will wear it on his sleeve all the same. Not as often as some, granted, as he has several other topics to cover at any given time.

        • WTF

          Intelligence is usually measured by IQ and/or qualifications, common sense and street wise are something else again which neither Beard or Schama have.

    • Fudsdad

      Yes I remember that episode very clearly. Beard was exposed as a hypocrite by the woman’s personal testimony.

  • Richard

    Lefties are only interested in other Lefties thinking highly of them. They are a self-regarding, self-contained, group, who have no real interest in resolving anything in reality.

    • Robert Andersen

      Actually, it’s worse. AS A RESULT OF ALWAYS TRYING TO BE SEEN TO LIVE UO TO IDEOLOGY AT ALL PRAGMATIC COST, THEY CREATE ECONOMIC BUBBLES IN WHICH OUR PRECIOUS RESOURCES ARE MISALLOCATED. LOOK AT THE RELIGION OF ANTI CO2. ASK AN AVERAGE TEACHER IF IT WOULD BE GOOD TO GET RID OF ALL CO2…

  • Donafugata

    When young and green one can be forgiven for an emotional and idealistic response to problems of humanity by wanting to help people who are worse off. Many young people are to be commended for their time spent as volunteers.

    Experience makes one more pragmatic because we learn that people and things are not always what they seem and problems are more complex, because resources are limited and because having children quite rightly, becomes ones priority.

    The desire to ‘do something’ is a sign of immaturity, Schama has led a sheltered life and needs to wake up to reality.

  • Alistair G.

    Don’t stop speaking your mind, Rod. Your honesty and willingness to challenge the idiocies and narcissism of people like Schama brings joy and reassurance to many of us.

  • bigmax

    I can’t agree with this article at all. I thought it was very nice of Simon Schama to come all the way from America to tell us what to do. Actually he didn’t, he just told us how we should feel.

    But it was nice of him all the same.

  • AlexanderGalt

    This problem of delusional lefties could be solved almost instantly if they could somehow be made to face the consequences of their idiocy. If Sturgeon actually had to take in a “refugee”, if Cameron had to send his kids to minority white comprehensives, etc, etc…

    Liddle’s piece reminds of another I read today about how the government’s aim of avoiding an “us and them” division between Muslims and the rest of us was resulting in just that. It’s at: http://john-moloney.blogspot.com/2015/10/us-and-them.html

    • LastmaninEurope

      Thank you for the link to John Maloney, I had not read him for a while. Fully agree re individuals be made to live the myth they peddle.
      The ‘us and them’ to the point of real conflict is now inevitable, not least so because that is what Islamists want.

    • Sarka

      That’s a very good link. Thank you.
      I have felt for some time that while the pathologies of some on the left who are obsessed with the need for us to embrace immigration and Islam for the good of our souls, or for left electoral gain, has to analysed in different terms, there are a lot of people in the centre or even on the moderate right who are acting “pragmatically” in the sense of seeking at all costs to ward off the threat to social peace. This dictates the inconsistency that means that all expressions of “Islamophobia” are leapt upon by the authorities, whereas Islamic spokespeople can get away with far more socially extreme demands and attitudes and are dealt with far more gently. The panic surrounding the EDL, for example, which can certainly be criticised but never was a fascist organisation in its aims and pronouncements, is a good example. The authorities (not just the Guardianistas) feared Tommy Robinson much more than the incomparably, by any liberal standards, more extreme Anjem Choudary.
      I think the gamble is that if essentially reactive criticism of and irritation with Muslim problems can be kept as damped down as possible, somehow – by long-term assimilation processes – the problems posed by Islamic integrism will eventually go away. Unfortunately, as Moloney observes, this is not only a gamble as regards the dynamics of attitudes among Muslims, but inflames public opinion still more by its necessary injustice.

      • E.I.Cronin

        Some great comments on this list there really are. Very interested in what you say about the elites fearing the EDL and Tommy more than the Choudary’s of the world. They must because the EDL was born out of a patriotic response to immigration. And it threatens the elites of both parties who can take the unthinking tribal loyalty of most low-information voters for granted while they pursue globalist social policies. I think of Australian patriotism as a sleeping giant – he’s a bit simple, sleepy, easily shouted down and takes a lot of goading but once aroused…

      • chesters

        great comments Sarka. BTW I understand that Tommy Robinson has just been banned from speaking at Durham University, which has, in the past, welcomed Islamist extremist speakers on to its campus.

  • stag

    That was a truly pathetic spectacle, to see a grown man like Schama emoting all over the place like a teenage girl (sorry, teenage girls) on national TV. People like this think out of their hatreds. “Whatever x (lefty hate-figure – in this case Rod) thinks, I shall think the opposite, because x is such a detestable and illiberal person”.

  • Fraaaankliiiin

    Eviscerate though you did. I have to take issue with uploading a video from someone who clearly thinks Schama is a Jewish propagandist content with genocide of white people. Surely that’s not someone you wish to have on your side?

    • Alec Leamas

      How does the ideology of the person who uploaded the unedited video without modification change the content of the video itself?

  • CalUKGR

    Rod, I saw your kerfuffle with Mr Schama on QT and enjoyed every moment of it – for once, the QT panel erupted into a glorious, unfettered frank exchange of views. How marvellous! Please don’t stop holding people such as Mr Schama to account.

    It’s getting ever rarer to encounter genuine opposition to dominant narratives on the BBC in particular (although in truth both CH4 and Sky News are just as hopelessly in thrall to a left-liberal agenda where ‘debate’ means simply never going ‘off-message’ and where venturing a genuinely honest view that might be at odds with the agenda almost always results in a hostile reaction at best, sneering indifference at worst).

    Regarding historians: now more than ever we need people like yourself to hold them to account, as liberal progressive historical revisionists seem hell-bent on rewriting history to suit their modern interpretations, ignoring historical fact in favour of PC-correct fiction. I’m still waiting for a BBC history of famous Victorian explorer Dr David Livingstone (yes, that one) in which it is made clear that Livingstone was a lifelong campaigner against the African slave trade – no, not the European-African slave trade (that had already been abolished, funnily enough by the British), but the hideously cruel and barbaric Arab-East African slave trade which was rife at the time Dr Livingstone was traipsing through the dark heart of Africa looking for the source of the Nile.

    Keep it up, Mr Liddle!

  • Alec Leamas

    Perhaps the best distillation of the leftwing position was presented by the final questioner without a question: ” . . . if homo sapiens had not migrated out of Africa, you would not be sitting here tonight. [bobbing head in the manner of a mother hen]” So, you see, the prime qualification for migrating to the United Kingdom is inclusion in the species homo sapiens, narrowing the criteria to the 7 or so Billion homo sapiens now residing on Earth less those who are already Her Majesty’s loyal subjects.

    One wonders whether the pose would modify if – rather than sufficiently exotic Muslims from the Middle East and Africa – the proposed “migrants” were rural white males between the ages of 14 and 35 from the Southern United States fleeing the putatively stagnant economies of Mississippi, Alabama, Georgia, South Carolina, Tennessee, Virginia and Kentucky? Rather than niqabs, genital mutilation, plural marriage, rape, terrorism, and voting Labor their hobbies include the relatively less pernicious firearms enthusiasm, pick up truck customization, stock car racing, deer and duck hunting, distillation of moonshine and associated bootlegging. It would be quite interesting to put this very question to the likes of Schama and his compatriots. One imagines that concerns about the cultural integrity of Britain would reemerge as a legitimate concern in the context of immigration policy.

    • E.I.Cronin

      Brilliant. The contrast is hilarious. Will give this scenario to the next Multicultist fanatic.

      I think dumbing the debate down to the most absurd extreme is a deliberate tactic. Because as soon as you start talking specifics, textual evidence, events, stats etc it becomes difficult for leftists to keep the moral high ground. Youre right, people distill complex issues into inane, emotive decisions. I was talking to a friend about a tv debate and she said she disagreed with everything the critic of MC policy and Islam said. On being asked why she just said ‘i hate him. I hate everything about him. I hate his voice. I hated his shirt’. No greater argument was forthcoming. Or another common one is ‘I know a Muslim girl at school or work, she’s soooo sweet!’ So one sweet girl who smiles at school or work = Islam is just great and nothings wrong with immigration.

    • ataturkey

      “One imagines that concerns about the cultural integrity of Britain would
      reemerge as a legitimate concern in the context of immigration policy.”

      Of course it would! One must realize that the far Left is motivating by one thing — hatred of the West.

      Some of the same lefty types that essentially demand (1) open borders for migrants and speak of (2)”the right” of refugees to settle in any safe haven, decry Zionism and the very creation of Israel because, per their view, it was created by migrants from other parts of the world. But this is contradictory of course with points 1, and 2 above. But that’s different you see, because it’s only colonialism and “not nice” if the West does it. Keeping migrants and refugees out when you are non-Western is self-preservation of one’s noble indigenous lands from colonizers.

  • oldoddjobs

    The immigration nightmare is due to people of Rod’s ilk. I am bitterly amused to see him encounter those willing to signal even harder than him. Not nice, is it Rod?

    • Nick

      What does your post mean?

    • Robert Andersen

      Brilliant. You’re saying that the reason that so many immigrants are coming is because Mr Liddle is questioning the number of immigrants who are coming.
      Do you understand circular reasoning?

      • oldoddjobs

        Rod sings a different tune now. Unlike Peter Hitchens he has not wandered into the outright apostasy of conservatism, but so what?

        • southerner

          Another tiresome silly-clever post that is utterly meaningless.

    • WTF

      How does that work ?

      Must be a first for the problems that mass immigration has caused is due to the people trying to stop it but not those that encourage it. Only a libturd could come up with that one.

  • WFB56

    Ahh, another evenly balanced audience selected for Question Time.

  • Nick

    I wish I could write like Rod Liddle can.

    Excellent article Rod and thank you again for broadcasting and saying what most of us are thinking.

    • Harry Pond

      seconded.

    • Robert Andersen

      It has become tedious to be dictated to by permanently minority supporting holier than thou types who are impervious to the introduction of fact or validity in their argument. Indeed, as Mr Liddle points out, in many cases there IS NOT EVEN AN ARGUMENT- impressive achievement in the context of a debate, even by the BBC’s standards.
      Still, we have an upcoming crimewave to look forward to, so at least we’ll be able to look back and say how great everything was.

      • Nick

        Yes I agree with you and the loonie left types who attack anyone who opposes them in anyway whatsoever are dinosaurs.A dying breed who will be forgotten sooner rather than later I hope.

  • Joseph Hooker

    If the idiots Blair and Bush had not begun the process of turning the ME into an inferno we would not be in this predicament. When is the Chilcot inquiry coming out?

    • cartimandua

      Not their fault that Muslims treat women like livestock. There are 100 million in the youth bulge of the MENA region.
      That’s not their fault.

      • peter6218

        The youth bulge is caused by western scientific advances meeting ingrained indigenous behaviour. Roll up roll up red nose day is coming up .

  • WalterSEllis

    Schama was dismissive of you, no question of that. He has something of the arrogance that overcomes most historians when they get on the telly. But you had previously been extremely dismissive of him. Why has this fact been airbrushed from the account of what happened? You accused him of whipping up emotions over emigration and of the “Dianafication” of the crisis. You said, waving a hand in his general direction, that he was guilty of “emotional incontinence”. He then got back at you, to your obvious delight. I think, on the night, you deserved each other.

    One more thing. You talk a lot these days about the foolishness of “lefties,” yet said on Question Time that you had been a member of the Labour Party for 40 years. Did you not consider yourself a lefty during these four decades? And what do you consider yourself now? Mr Sensible?

    • Jacky Treehorn

      Enlightened .

    • cd

      Liddle won the argument. Schama seems to think that letting your heart rule your head is the way to plan for a humanitarian catastrophe as he sees it. Does that sound like a man of sound judgement or a fool best ignored. Liddle loved it as he had Schama on the canvas as his argument had no intellectual credibility. The Left are lazy thinkers.

  • Derek Custance

    Seven million is the figure quoted in an official German Government document. Once the one and a half million are registered they become entitled to bring their families into the country hence the revised figure.

    • peter6218

      Seven million for just one year. next year will bring double that number.

  • Glenmoriston

    Everything about that man Schama tells me crank and weirdo. Look at that thing on his right arm . Lol.

  • Sean L

    A man’s man. Not.

  • Michael990

    Disappointed by Schama. I had thought that he was reasonably sensible though bound, by his background, to have certain blank spots in his view of the world.

    • WTF

      Academia does not teach common sense, that is learned from the school of hard knocks which sadly most TV professors lack with the notable exception of Starkey. Living in ivory towers of university cities protects you from real life and it shows with Schama or Beard.

  • retundario

    Liddle is a great man

  • cd

    Well done Rod Liddle – about the first person on TV that has had the courage to illustrate the emptiness, pointlessness and self-absorbed nature of emotion-led response or just to express that you care (it dominates our culture). More evil has been done through folly than ever by ill-intent; and after all folly (rushing in on emotion) is a sin – so a very Christian virtue you stood-up for last week too.

    You also managed to burst his narcissistic bubble – see how he explodes when you called him on his virtue signalling. And as for calling you an old hack, he’s a bloody cheek, he’s a bloody academic and like all his ilk has far too much to say for himself. Good man.

  • tesshoeyMichael Hoey

    Really enjoyed this article, which I came to by chance after watching an episode of Simon Schama’s Face of Britain last night. I’ve enjoyed much of SS’s documentaries in the past – and he has a great theme here – though I always had the feeling that he had an almost pathological need to present HIMSELF as at least as interesting as the subject in hand. Now I get the feeling that his narcissism has got all consuming. Maybe I’m impossibly suburban but does a 70 year old geezer need to expose his hairy chest, when discussing Hogarth, even if he is an art historian? Or spend such a long time in front of the mirror trying to make his open necked shirt as scrunched up as possible? So not surprised as this latest out burst of ME ME ME . Yes, Simon – we can see you really care! You are SUCH a sensitive and compassionate person! I’m going to the Portrait Gallery so I can just look at the pictures rather than have to take any more of this awful vanity. Thank heavens for the Rod Liddles of this world.

    • WTF

      What it says I think is that historians like Beard or Schama should stick to their level of competence name history and stay the f*** away from areas they have no knowledge of, namely the costs, side effects and problems that mass immigration brings.

    • stuartMilan

      absolutely. a revealing moment in the QT exchange was when Schama was saying “do not presume to lecture me” as if somehow his vanity wasa credential he could bring to the discussion

  • WTF

    I doubt Schama has much to say about this piece of news just released.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3286591/Moment-Dark-Justice-vigilantes-caught-newlywed-paedophile-trying-meet-11-year-old-girl-sex-grooming-dating-site-WhatsApp.html

    My only regret is ‘dark justice’ didn’t apply sharia law on this dirt-b*g from Oman as he’d be singing soprano by now instead of living in a comfy UK prison !!!

  • pobinr

    Multiculturalism & importation of cheap migrant labour functions only in the mind of leftie Liberals in leafy suburbs well away from the consequences
    Unless they want cheap nannies of course. Then they actually benefit

  • rbw152

    Keep it Rod. Seriously, keep telling it like it is. It’s alarming how emotion rules these days and reality is nothing more than a nuisance. Writers like you are literally on the front line in a war against PC bollocks.

  • Jesus H Corbyn

    Piddle is just a bitter twisted man

  • correcht

    reThe final statement of the vid..When ancient homo sapians migrated from African ( and that is now in question), they were not muslims, they were theoretically more advanced than the species that lived in Europe and it took place over thousands of years with no malice intended against the others

  • Feminister

    I was struck by your anasarcous lips.

  • Feminister

    Your pronunciation of “class” was hamming it up a bit wasn’t it?

    • Snipkokken Balsov

      Not really. Shortening vowels is a very BBC thing. Maybe Rod was ridiculing the home counties, six figure salary vowel shortening (sub) urbanites.

      • Do men ever stop moaning?

        He lives in the Home Counties and has a six figure salary.

  • Harryagain

    Ah well Rod, you have overlooked the fact that these people are all socialists.
    Socialists are by definition brain dead.
    Socialism has failed everywhere it has been implemented.
    The self styled intellectual ones additionally live in Lala Land where magic money trees grow and the poor are only poor because of the nasty rich rather then idleness, stupidity or adherence to a mad/evil cult.

    The laughable thing about socialists is, when it fails, they always say we need more socialism. Thus you end up with places like East Germany or N. Korea where they have to fence the population in.
    They are total denialists. Eg, they now deny that Tony Bliar was a socialist.

    • The Bogle

      Had you sent a letter from the UK to “East Germany” during the time of Communist rule, your letter could have been returned and you would have been obliged to write “German Democratic Republic”.

      Of course, that same Democratic country didn’t erect an Iron Curtain or a Berlin Wall to prevent its citizens from exercising their democratic right to emigrate to the West, but to defend them against fascist aggression.

      As for “socialism”, the rulers of the Iron Curtain countries described them not as “communist” but as “socialist”, e.g. Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. Socialism was a stepping stone to communism, which could not be reached overnight.

      • sidor

        I remind you that during mcCarthy period it was common to deny “politically incorrect” American citizens the right to leave the country. Therefore, we cannot consider that right as a necessary condition for democracy. Neither is it a sufficient condition, unless you join frau Merkel in claiming that the Germany as we see now it as a model of democracy.

        • Abie Vee

          Referendum are, according to the ancient Greeks, one of the three worst possible forms of democracy (the other two being Tyranny and Oligarchy).

          As you’d expect, they even had a name for it: Ochlocracy… which loosely translates as mob rule.

          The health of a democracy is measured by the protection it affords to minority interests within it… protection from “the tyranny of the majority”.

          A fine case in point will be the upcoming EU Referendum. Cameron has ensured that the outcome will be decided largely by the weight of English public opinion, almost irrespective of how the regions may vote.

          So yes, I’m with Leon Brittan on this: referenda are the natural resort of tyrants, and are “a Bonapartist device… incompatible with our Parliamentary democracy.” They are a gross dereliction of duty by the holders of high office, whose job it is to act in the best way for all the citizens of this country… to act in the National Interest as they see it, and not to delegate that awesome responsibility to the fickle whims of a braying mob.

          I expect my leaders to lead. It’s what I pay them for isn’t it?

          • Harryagain

            The Swiss seem to do OK with referendii.
            The trouble is politicians are such liars.
            Promises they make should be legally binding.

          • nicnac

            Toddle off to North Korea then; leaders lead there, and we’ll be rid of a self regarding gasbag.

          • Abie Vee

            Why should I? For your information, this is my country too. Who TF are you?

        • The Bogle

          Noted. Just how do we define democracy?
          Had the GDR allowed its young citizens to emigrate, the economy would have collapsed. By contrast, religious families were allowed to emigrate as were pensioners with family in the GDR. The USA also forbade its citizens the right to visit Cuba, but forbidding non-PC citizens the right to leave the country was not known to me.
          Germany’s post-Great War history and experience with referendums in the Weimar has made post-WW2 governments wary of them, which is a pity.

          • sidor

            Confiscating passports of the blacklisted was common. Strange that you didn’t know. One notorious case was Paul Robson. Once he gave a concert for the Canadian audience while staying himself on the US side of the border. A comedy.

            You confuse to distinctly separate things: democracy and personal freedom. They are not quite mutually consistent. Remember quite democratic monkey trials? This was noted by de Tocqueville: “i know of no country in which there is so little independence of mind and real freedom of discussion as in America.”

    • Abie Vee

      Failed everywhere? Has it really: the USA’s agricultural economy, like ours, is sustained by massive injections of state funds and central grants. Their Universities and manufacturing industries are the beneficiaries of more state military-spending than the rest of the world put together!The banking system in the UK was prevented from total collapse by almost £1 trillion of government state-intervention. British business are sustained by an annual subsidy of £100 billion in tax grants and allowances. The Housing market is sustained by an annual injection of £39 billion from the public purse into the ever-gaping maw of buy-to-rent property speculators. Property owners are themselves in receipt of state subsidies of over £12 billion pounds annually from all sources (The Chartered Institute for Housekeeping refers: UK Housing Review).

      Capitalism sounds like a very good idea to me; it’s just a great pity that nobody has ever tried it!

      • Malcolm Stevas

        Disingenuous: just as when folk like you slag off libertarianism and attempt to impose your own highly selective definition, you’re pretending that we choose either pure capitalism, or its opposite. Twaddle, as you well know: our capitalism is informed by aspects of social ownership (call that “socialism” if you like) just as China is playing with many aspects of capitalism while remaining a one-party nominally communist State.

        I don’t call myself a libertarian, or a capitalist – and certainly not any kind of socialist. My politics are sort of libertarian-conservative-nationalist. I imagine the majority of people have similarly mixed politics.

        • Abie Vee

          Yes. Thank you. I do call it socialism “if I like”. Social Democrats believe in Capitalism regulated and controlled by the state for the benefit of all. Which is basically where we are today (though no one admits it). We certainly do not yet have Capitalism: what we saw in 2008/2009 was an example of Collectivism…. true capitalists would have let the failing banks fail.

          “Socialism has failed everywhere” was the text to which I replied. That’s just simple and simplistic bullshjt, as you know.

          • Malcolm Stevas

            Certainly true that Cameron, Clegg etc are more social democrat than capitalist. In so far as hard-core socialism has been put into practice – the USSR and its Warsaw Pact colonies etc – it most certainly failed, spectacularly and very bloodily for millions of people. Its comparatively anaemic equivalents as demonstrated here (post-WW2, then 1966-79, various) did not generate bloodshed, gulags, and dire economic backwardness as did their mentors to the East, but certainly screwed things to a degree that set us back by a decade or two at least.

          • Abie Vee

            Yes dear. But I’m not talking about Communism. I’m talking about Capitalism and Social Democracy along the lines of the Scandinavian model. Spare me the old “LOOK… over there…” games will you.

            The rest of your hyperbole is nonsense. Brown left a National Debt of £800 billion and an economy returning to growth.. Failed Osborneomics has doubled that debt to £1,600 billion in just five short years.

          • Harryagain

            Sweden?????? Riiiiiiiiiiiight!
            http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/6697/sweden-collapse

            Socialist always bring up Sweden.
            Another myth comparable with the magic money tree.

          • Abie Vee

            You’re a class act, eh H? Sweden has a minority centre-left/green coalition, thwarted and opposed at every twist and turn by a resurgent centre-right coalition .

            Be that as it may:
            *Consumer prices in the UK are 13.36% higher than in Sweden.
            *Consumer prices in the UK including rent are 21.55% higher than in Sweden.
            *Rents in the UK are 48.06% higher than in Sweden.
            *Restaurant prices in the UK are 18.06 % higher than in Sweden.
            *Groceries in the UK are 6.56% higher than in Sweden.
            *Local purchasing power in the UK is 15.82% lower than in Sweden.
            *Swedish state pensioners enjoy a maximum £25,000 annual state pension; the UK single state pension is c. £5,500.

            Bluudy socialists, eh?

          • Harryagain

            You might read up some more on Sweden.
            Talk about Lala Land.
            I know someone Swedish, it’s all true BTW.

            http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/topics/36/sweden

            Not allowed to be reported in Sweden. But you can confirm it all with internet searches.
            Further evidence that socialist are brain dead.

          • Abie Vee

            Do me a favour: the internet is chock-a-block full of fruitcake right wing conspiracy theorist sites. None of which stand a moment’s proper scrutiny.

            Why waste your time and mine?

          • Malcolm Stevas

            You know, or ought to, that after Brown & Co embarked on a borrowing & spending binge post-2000, huge indebtedness was inevitable; and that given the weedy social-democrat inclinations of the present Tories, and given in any case the extreme difficulty of escaping from debt once a foolish person or government has become enmeshed in it, it surprises no-one that the figures look even worse now.
            But of course you know this, actually. You’re just pretending. BTW forget about Scandinavia: I know lots of bien-pensant types like to flaunt that one, but they are completely different societies culturally, demographically and otherwise. I don’t want to dine on pickled herrings and aquavit, neither do I want to emulate Scandi politics. Neither do most English folk.

          • Abie Vee

            Allow me to set the record straight!

            First for the idea that Labour profligacy trashed the economy. That’s Tory propaganda which no sensible person believes (not even them). As Sir Nicholas Macpherson , the Permanent Secretary to The Treasury, confessed: “It was a banking crisis, pure and simple” adding “we all took our eye off the ball.” By that he meant the UK, USA, G7, the Eurozone… ALL!

            In 2006/2007, the final fiscal year before the crash, the budget deficit was 2.7%… well within the bounds of historic experience. The Debt-GDP ratio that year was 37%… that is to say, lower than the 40% New Labour inherited from the Conservatives a decade earlier.

            When Labour left office the National Debt stood at £800 billion. Today it is double that! And that is inescapable.

            Spare me the retirement brochure. I put the North European model in commentary to pop the ridiculous claim that socialism never works anywhere. Believe me , it most certainly does: not least in the USA and the UK!

          • Malcolm Stevas

            You have access to the “straight record”? Remarkable! I trust you will share this with those in authority.
            Actually, I can read, am educated, and like (I would estimate with confidence) a majority of folk, I’ve been aware for a very long time that Labour always – that is, without fail – cocks up the economy, which is then cobbled back into a slightly less cocked-up state by subsequent Tory administrations. It’s a sort of Punch & Judy act writ large.

          • Abie Vee

            Did you even read my comment before replying? It doesn’t seem that you did (or if you did, you clearly didn’t understand it).

            Labour didn’t cock up the economy; the global banking crisis cocked up the global economy. There are many reasons why this impacted more strongly upon this country than in some others. Would you like me to educate you as to why that what so?

            The charge that Labour squandered money, “overspent” is simply Tory propaganda… what does it actually mean? Does it even mean anything at all? Spending is only tangential to the charge of fiscal incompetence, which actually concerns the sustainable flow and level of state borrowing, and not questions of how that money is spent. And in that respect, pre-crash, Labour was performing at least as well, if not better, than the previous Tory administration.

            The greatest economic error of modern times was made not by Labour, but by those who argue that in a time of recession, government’s should cut back spending in synchronisation with the private sector… something that deepens a extends the slump. As we all know. This error was made by those who opposed fiscal stimulus on anti-government ideological grounds. It was made by those who ignored calls for caution and imposed front-loaded fiscal consolidation before the recovery was secure,,, suppressing growth. As we all know.

            Step forward Boy George; history is going to be very unkind to you!. Your luck is just about to run out.

          • Malcolm Stevas

            No chum, I simply disagreed with you. I realise by now that disagreement is something which raises your hackles. Par for the course with the Left, IME, since Leftism is based on attempting to impose ideology/theory on people, while more conservative folk like me prefer to observe how the world and its people actually work, then create rules to suit.
            So your being opinionated, intolerant of dissent, and deaf to correction are to be expected.

          • Abie Vee

            “Disagreement” doesn’t raise my hackles… idiotic bullshjt does. Oh yes, you’d “correct” me if you could, but at each turn I have you. Leaving you to retreat to the safety of mere semantic wriggling. Each and every time.

          • Malcolm Stevas

            See what I mean about arrogance?

          • Abie Vee

            Arrogance? Lack of patience. I have never been able to suffer fools gladly . As Spike Milligan once said: “that word [patience] was invented by dull buggers who couldn’t think quick enough.”

          • Malcolm Stevas

            Both qualities then, in your case: it goes with the political territory.

          • Abie Vee

            Reduced to gobbing-off, eh? As usual.

          • Malcolm Stevas

            A B+ for trying, albeit with a strangely inapposite, tangential remark. You’re odd, but I’ve come across your type in the past, and they were usually Lefties: you try to pass off assertions as argument, engage in schoolboy ad hominem name calling, invoke highly selective distortions of history, and… well, the usual stuff. Then in the same breath you tax your opponent of the moment with your own egregious failings…
            Lay off the hard stuff, or something. I’m enjoying a rather pleasant Pic St Loup – much better for one than Leftist bile.

          • Abie Vee

            I’m odd? Hmm… Oddness is, like beauty presumably, in the eye of the beholder. And I dread the day I’m understood (at least, by people like you).

            Be that as it may, you are reduced to mere chatterer assassination and hyperbole. One point for turning up. Zero for content. As usual.

          • Malcolm Stevas

            I like “chatterer assassination”, rather apt.

          • Harryagain

            The state is run by idiots.
            They are not fit to regulate anything.
            The biggest idiots are socialists.
            You only have to look at Tom and Jerry to see this.

          • Abie Vee

            Educated in the state system was ya? Got a state pension, H? Use the NHS do you? Good old socialism: heroes when you need them, and “idiots” when you think you don’t.

      • MickC

        Yes, I agree with much of what you say.

        However, I disagree with the phrase “tax grant”. Not taking something is not the same as giving something. Not collecting a tax does not “cost” anything at all, unless one accepts the premise that all money belongs to the state, which I do not, although it seems a common sentiment.

        Incidentally, the banks should indeed have been allowed to go down, with the savers being rescued, not the shareholders and management. I think that was Osborne’s original position, later modified, as have most of his policies.

        • Abie Vee

          Semantics. Money foregone is money lost. “All money belongs to the state” is a ridiculous proposition.

          • MickC

            Not semantics at all. I have not taken money from you, but I have not lost money. Yes, of course all money belongs to the state is ridiculous.

          • Abie Vee

            If I have not taken the money from you that I could… then you have gained and I have lost. Simple. Slashing Corporate tax rates to the lowest levels in the G7 has cost the Treasury £5 billion a year in lost revenue (forecast to rise to £8 billion a year by 2016/17) which has to be found from elsewhere in the economy through austerity. The one, austerity, finances the other, tax cuts for the rich.

            This isn’t capitalism or Social Democracy.. it’s Corporate neo-feudalism: theft.

          • Harryagain

            We depend on capitalism to create wealth.
            It doesn’t appear spontaneously.
            As socialists seem to think.

            If yo tax capitalists, they will b****r off to better places.
            Very easily these days.

          • MickC

            Because I do not take your money, you have not gained, nor have I lost. We are both in our original positions.
            Cutting Corporate Tax has not cost the Treasury a single penny, nor is there any “lost revenue”. The money was never the Treasury’s, nor has there even been any entitlement to it, because Parliament did not deem there should be.
            What you are actually arguing is that State expenditure must be financed, an entirely unexceptionable position. The problem is how high that expenditure should be, and on what, and which sector of taxpayers should bear what proportion.
            You consider the Corporate sector should pay more, others do not. That is politics.
            Incidentally, there is no “austerity”, State expenditure has risen. It has been ineffective in reviving the economy because it has been misdirected.

      • Harryagain

        Capitalism with all it’s failures is the only system that works.
        The richest countries in the world are capitalist.
        The poorest are socialist.
        As with democracy.
        The government has think tanks whose task is to predict the future.
        The government tries to manipulate the economy to try to benefit from the predictions.

  • rich

    the last comment on that video is priceless, but what about the poor old neanderthal?
    i’d rather have them than the muslim hordes.

  • Vera

    As you say in the your article an influx of migrants into our country affects the poor, not the Simon Schamas or Yvette Coopers of this world. Those with money always have options, the poor do not. And as we are still struggling to house and school our own poor, we shouldn’t be importing thousands more from other countries, particularly not those from totally different cultures.

    • Sue Smith

      One of the other problems for the Left is that it thinks its own peculiar brand of “morality” is superior to that of everybody else – but they ‘project’ and accuse the Right of self-righteousness themselves.

      Always remember folks: when the Left accuses you it’s really telling you all about itself!!

  • tenbelly

    I thought Schama did a very good impression of Joe Cocker don’t you think?

  • Scylla

    Excellent performance, Rod. You tore that smug, emoting fool to pieces. He was shaking with fury! Hilarious!

  • Barzini

    The author and many commentators here seem to be under the impression that pro-immigration journalists and politicians actually believe what they are saying…….

    These people aren’t stupid, they know exactly what the results of what they are calling for will be. They are calling for it nonetheless because that is what they are being paid to do.

    The battle isn’t against a bunch of pathologically altruistic lefties, the battle is against an elite that is set on dividing and conquering the nation via mass immigration.

    When Stalin imported millions of Russians into the Baltic nations, he didn’t do so because of a belief in the benefits of diversity, he did so because he (quite rightly) saw the threat that united nation states posed to his dystopian regime.

    • Harryagain

      No it’s not the “elite”.
      It’s the EUSSR wants to destroy us.
      Our traitorous politicians are doing their bidding.
      For money I expect.
      The muslim horde however is an ISIS plan.
      If someone turns up on your border with tanks and guns you can kill them.
      More difficult with women and kids.

      • Barzini

        If you want to believe in media created fairy tales, believe in them…….

        If it somehow helps you to believe that there is an army of black pyjama clad evil Muslims out there beheading orange jump suit wearing Westerners and putting others in cages and setting them on fire and then filming it all – just to show us how despicable they are – then believe it…..

        If it further helps you to believe that this evil Muslim army has a dastardly plan to invade Europe via the creation of a refugee crisis and that it has somehow also managed to take over our media and politicians, then believe that too.

        Why let reality get in the way, so much easier to believe everything you see on TV.

        • Harryagain

          Typical libturd.
          Got your head up your *****
          Prefer you socialist fantasy to reality. Getting in deeper as all the activities of Bliar, Bush & Co bear their fruit.
          Because that’s what we’re seeing.

          I expect you’ll be telling us that you have a special channel to reality denied to everyone else?

          • Barzini

            Libturd? Are you 12 years-old?

            So now someone who questions the mass media and doesn’t believe everything they see on TV is a socialist?

            What?

            Your pet theory on who is behind what is happening in Europe is eating your brain…..

            To believe that an evil black pyjama clad Muslim army is the source of our woes is beyond insane…….

  • Jackthesmilingblack

    So how are those anger management classes going, Rod?

    • EUSSR 4 All!

      When you finally come off your Disability allowances in Japan (as a paranoid schizophrenic), only then you have the right to have a go at Mr Liddle!

  • Abie Vee

    You belittle only yourself. You just cannot rise above it, eh? Revenge.

    We read all about your compulsive-obsessive tendencies during your long and acrimonious divorce; you put your entire family through h5ll. I ‘m told you were even sectioned a couple of times… is that right Mr Moral Highground?

    • Malcolm Stevas

      Clearly, you didn’t like the applause that greeted RL’s masterly put-down of Schama. But perhaps you didn’t see it… You’re certainly avoiding anything like a reasoned rebuttal – something you’re keen on suggesting to others – preferring a pretty crude ad hominem attack on the man.

      • Abie Vee

        No, I don’t like Liddle Rod. I think he’s an appalling man. I can barely be arzed to respond to his ego-tripping. But I could, I suppose, sit there like the other muppets and clap his every embittered and untrue polemic. The biggest harrumph was for the suggestion that the EU is stopping Cameron from saving what’s left of the steel industry. ” It’s against EU rules” they warbled. My how they cheered, eh? All total billhooks… it is not. And that’s what you have to deal with when facing these devious rabble-rousers.

        People buy into popular narratives… the current narrative is to blame immigrants for everything. It is, of course, a diversion by the establishment to keep their failings, their incestuous kleptocracy, from proper public scrutiny. And the idiots fall for it everytime.

        “The people can always be brought to do the government’s bidding. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and putting the country in danger*. It works the same way in any country. ” Herman Goering.

        *the sort of tripe Cameron slings at Corbyn.

        • Chamber Pot

          He and most who read this article can see you are both a cretin and a snob.

          • Abie Vee

            A snob? That’s new one. I’m not the one gerrymandering English constituencies; I’m not the one forcing 400,000 voters off the London electoral roll (in time for the Mayoral election); I’m not the one proposing to make Scottish MPs into second-tier members of the Commons; I’m not the man packing the House of Lords with lick-spittle appointees.

            I’m the one who says one man one vote of equal weight. Yup that’s me, fool bwoy.

        • nicnac

          Oh, those pesky people and their false conciousness! If only they were like us!

          • Abie Vee

            Sheeple?

        • Malcolm Stevas

          Interesting that you dismiss the (clearly concerned) local people applauding Liddle as “muppets” – perhaps they’re suffering from false consciousness…
          Your conspiracy theory about that “diversion by the establishment” is entertaining and (as always with these things) insidiously tempting, but it’s tosh: I didn’t/don’t trust any post-WW2 UK government on immigration, but I incline more toward the cock-up theory of history than to any sinister conspiracy.
          Corbyn seems perfectly capable of concocting his own tripe, and does not need it flung at him by Cameron – an ineffectual tripe-slinger in any case.

          • Abie Vee

            Perhaps you’d care to re-read my comment. It concernd the rabble-rousing assertion that Cameron cannot do anything to save the Steel Industry because “it is against EU rules.” Cue; frantic applause and loud cheering from section of hand-picked audience.

            It is not true. It’s a simple Euro-sceptic lie… an empty soundbite… utter claptrap. Yet my how they cheered, eh? Like you.. hearing only what they want to hear: the truth an irrelevance.

          • Malcolm Stevas

            Really? I didn’t hear/try to catch anything about the steel industry. Your ad-hominem arrogance is showing again, with that “hearing only…irrelevance” stuff.

        • Matthew O’Malley

          You may not like the man but he still has a point. Regardless of the positives or negatives of immigration, ‘stopping the boats’ is the humane thing to do. Tony Abbott’s government in Australia saved around 2000-3000 lives by enacting a zero tolerance policy on illegal immigration (people who pay thousands of dollars to people smugglers and jump refugee queue) and now has the highest per capita take of Syrian refugees in the world. How many lives have been lost in the Adriatic and Mediterranean by encouraging migration?

          • Sue Smith

            Bravo!! Fully agree with this. The real trouble is that those rent-seekers who hop on boats with their kids don’t really value human life as we do. If they did they wouldn’t expose their own children to these hideous risks, often resulting in death.

          • Matthew O’Malley

            I wouldn’t go that far. I’m sure many of these people believe that they are making the right choice for them and their children. The problem being that for every illegal migrant that passes the border of any given country, they take up one of the country’s quota for refugees. Meanwhile the people who are genuinely seeking refuge in a UN camp have to wait another year for their opportunity for a safe haven.

          • Sue Smith

            I’m sorry sir, but how hard is it to get a functioning life-jacket? That the FIRST thing to consider when making these trips, yet you see precious few on those people jammed into those over-crowded rafts, children and all. I wouldn’t do it in a million years to my kids! And it’s just not that bad in Turkey. Ask Merkel.

          • Matthew O’Malley

            Again the situation people are fleeing in Syria is enough to drive people to do wild things. At the end of the day these people are paying money to people smugglers to be smuggled into Europe. They can’t exactly pop into Blacks or Millets to grab a life jacket. Ultimately the smugglers have shown a callous disregard for human life and the families should be deterred from using them by a strong border policy.

          • Sue Smith

            You’re obviously not a parent!! And you lightly brush off the individual responsibility of the parents, when there would be a vigorous trade in life-jackets at the people smuggling end; just another lucrative part of the trade where there’s money to be made.

            Desperation for a better life does not come at the cost of childrens’ lives. Period.

          • Abie Vee

            Let them drown… it’s for their own good, and a Christian thing to do. Yeah right. It’s a jolly good idea we didn’t hold the same views during the pogroms of Tsarist Russia or in the 1930’s.

            I could spend all day explaining what has happened in Australia. But it would be a waste of my time. You people only believe state propaganda. You are not intent upon finding out for yourselves “that which is beneath the seeming.”

          • Matthew O’Malley

            Are you joking? Nowhere did I say let people drown, in fact my point is to discourage migrants from making a dangerous journey and not drown. No one is suggesting forcing people to stay in their own country either. The idea is to push people towards refugee camps and going through the proper channels as opposed to filling the pockets of people smugglers who have no regard for human life whatsoever.

            I’m sure you could try and pick apart the situation in Australia. Don’t let the facts get in the way of a good argument.

          • Abie Vee

            Simply done. The Aussies dump all refugees in prison camps on a remote Pacific Island, where the conditions therein have been roundly condemned by the UN and other human rights observers. 2000-3000 lives “saved” is pure conjecture. Yaaaaawn.

            If I were the Greeks, I’d take in the whole lot of them, issue them with EU passports, and sit back and watch the fun. Revenge is a dish best served cold.

            I’d suggest that the best way to discourage them is to stop bombing the shjt out of their countries in the first place!

          • Matthew O’Malley

            What rubbish. The fact of the matter is the boats coming to Australia have stopped or at the very least drastically reduced meaning less people are making a dangerous journey, unless of course you believe that the journey isn’t dangerous of course. See below for more details. Those are just the recorded deaths.
            http://artsonline.monash.edu.au/thebordercrossingobservatory/publications/australian-border-deaths-database/

            Ultimately these people are taking the place of genuine refugees who spend years in camps purely because they have the money to do so. Not very egalitarian of you to argue against.

            As for your last ridiculous comment, what do you propose? Allow Assad or ISIS free rein?

          • Abie Vee

            “meaningless people”? yeah right Paddy… just like you millions of “dirtry Irish” eh?

          • Abie Vee

            That is not rubbish. That is what happens. No argument. Fact.

            Who TF are you to tell me what is a “genuine” refugee? What do you know that the rest of the world doesn’t?

            And certainly Assad is the rightful government of Syria. We should have supported him from the very start against Jihadist invaders. We have been training his military in Sandhurst and other colleges for decades, and his father’s officers before him… quite how they have suddenly mutated into our enemy is completely beyond my comprehension (though I suspect the poison of Zionism somewhere). If you’ve a better explanation, let’s hear it!

          • Abie Vee

            Genuine refugees? Under UNCR law, almost anyone from anywhere can claim asylum in any other country. Even you. Article 1 of the Convention, as amended by the 1967 Protocol, defines a refugee as:

            “A person who owing to a well-founded fear of being persecuted for reasons of race, religion, nationality, membership of a particular social group or political opinion, is outside the country of his nationality and is unable or, owing to such fear, is unwilling to avail himself of the protection of that country; or who, not having a nationality and being outside the country of his former habitual residence as a result of such events, is unable or, owing to such fear, is unwilling to return to it..”

            Until those claimants are properly dealt with under due process, everyone is a “genuine” refugee. There is no such thing as an illegal asylum seeker: that’s a press fiction eagerly parroted by scurvy politicians and populist rabble rousers to advance their positions.

            Assad and ISIS? Indeed, I do suggest something like that. Assad is fighting an invasion by Saudi-financed Wahhabi fundamentalists. Call them what ever you wish. We should have supported the rightful government of Syria right from the start, thank god Putin understands this.

            It’s a futile conceit to imagine that ISIS can be defeated by bombing alone: solitudinem faciunt, pacem appellant. We must support those governments who are opposing them, and oppose those governments , principally Saudi Arabia and Turkey, who are supporting them.

            And that’s all there is to it: my enemy’s enemy is my friend.

          • Matthew O’Malley

            The key is in the detail. ‘unable or, owing to such fear, is unwilling to avail himself of the protection of that country’. Effectively a large majority of these people are refusing to settle in camps or in neighbouring countries, making incredibly dangerous journeys to get at what they believe is the gravy train. Understandable perhaps but not something we should encourage.

            In an ideal world there would be no need for refugee camps, but I believe that they’re the best option going forward. It gives a relative safe haven for people in the meantime and allows other countries to manage the flow of migrants. Of course we can debate whether or not the quotas need addressing but that is secondary.

            What you suggest is ludicrous. The Syrian Civil War began as sporadic protests against heavy handedness by the State which were then dealt with heavy handedly. This then ballooned and in the chaos, ‘interest groups’, jihadist organisations and State sponsored militias filled the void and have managed to edge out the moderates in the conflict. Iran, Audi Arabia, Turkey and even the Gulf States are all guilty of funding militias in order to further their own goals in the region. It’s not limited to the Sunnis. The Russian intervention is merely strategic to maintain their naval fleet in Tartus.

    • JOSEPHINEII

      What an unpleasant little person you are.

      • Abie Vee

        6′ 1″ and 110 kilo. true, I could do with losing 10-20k… but what the h5ll.

  • ohforheavensake

    And you’ve done it again, Rod. You go on TV. You say something stupid. Someone gets angry at you because you’ve said something stupid. You scuttle back to the Spectator and you write something to try to prove that you’re not stupid. What you write is stupid.

    And you do this, over and over and over again. Which is stupid.

    • Malcolm Stevas

      I don’t think you watched the programme. RL’s rebuttal of Schama was measured, witty, accurate and apposite – certainly not stupid. A majority of the audience appeared to agree with him, since the BBC had clearly failed to ensure the usual atypical band of Leftist yobs.

      • Matthew O’Malley

        I don’t think Dover has a University campus.

        • Malcolm Stevas

          I’m sure you’re right. Where was it? I just watched the clip provided, don’t do TV.

          • Matthew O’Malley

            Dover. Unfortunately it’s only filled with people who are pissed off with the ideological zeitgeist that we should allow as many people over the border as is possible.

    • Daniel Maris

      Declaring something stupid without explaining why it is stupid is a pretty stupid thing to do in a comments section.

  • Dennis Lessenis

    What angers me about many of the ‘Great and the Good’ that get their (or are paid to get their) cheeky little faces on Question Time – is that they pontificate on issues that often don’t affect their lives. A few weeks ago, it was Sandi Toksvig and Alec Salmon (a man who has made his career on nationalism and jingoism – an irony lost on the Question Time Panel) demanding we should open our doors to a flood of migrants. According to Toksvig’s agent’s website, she charges between £6,000 and £10,000 an appearance (http://www.nmplive.co.uk/sandi-toksvig – cheap compared to some of our Lefty commedians, many charge £50,000 an appearance) – and I presume she gets a nice salary from Channel 4 for hosting 15-1 – and could always keep the wolf from the door as a Mrs Doubtfire ‘Lookalike’. So with a handful of appearances at corporate functions she’ll earn more than what many of us earn in a year – she can afford to live where she wants to live – she can visit a private GP rather than struggle to get an appointment with a NHS GP and (if her children were school age) she can afford to send her children a private school rather than fight for a place at a state school. The pressures immigration puts on our society aren’t ones that the likes of Toksvig or Schama have to worry about. As for the likes of Salmon – odd we never heard him suggesting a quota for the number of refugees he’d gladly accept in his constituency.

    The Elephant in the Room with regard to accepting migrants is that in doing so we’re also accepting a massive influx of alien cultures that are at odds with Western European values. Few are brave enough to ask why it is Jews, Hindus and Sikhs have come to the UK and many have become the haves of society – making a massive contribution to the UK. Whereas those from Muslim cultures are more likely to live on benefits or be in prison (Muslims make up 4.5% of the UK population yet make up almost 15% of the male prison population). The vast majority of Muslims are law abiding citizens, but we have to ask why they are so over-presented in our welfare and criminal justice system – as are Afro-Caribbeans, Africans and Roman Catholics. It can’t all be blamed on racism or structural inequalities – there must be some cultural reasons that contribute to the over presententation of Muslims, Black African/Caribbeans, etc. in our criminal justice and benefits’ systems – whining on about racism is, in part at least, just a cop out to excuse cultural behaviours and attitudes that are at odds with Western, democratic and law-abiding priciples. Jews and Hindus are underrepresented in our prisons – Sikhs about the same as the general population – see: https://www.gov.uk/government/… on religion and prison populations). Unless we are prepared to ask to difficult questions about why some immigrants prosper and others fail – or are less likely to succeed – we shouldn’t be allowing alien cultures to swamp our inner cities. Immigration should come with a requirement of assimilation – and that non-Western religion and culture are for the home – not the high street. .

    Moreover, as has been in seen Germany and Sweden – a massive influx Muslim men, as also seen a massive increase in the number of sex crimes (see: http://www.frontpagemag.com/po… ) – some 77% of all rapes in Sweden involve a Muslim man. This shouldn’t come as a surprise – many of the top ten nations in the world for porn internet downloading are Muslim societies – Pakistan leads the world in internet pornography downloading (curiously Poland is highest consumer in Europe and the Bible Belt States in the USA – see: http://postober.com/general/to… – http://gizmodo.com/heres-all-t…which suggests the more publically conservatively religious a society the greater its consumption of pornography – now there’s irony, but not a surprise, when you think about it… ‘Angel in the street: devil in the home’ has always been a common trait where public, exclusive and intolerant piety abounds!).

    Let’s remember, ALL immigrants come to the UK and the West in general because they have been failed by their own culture. Their own culture has not been able to provide them with the life they desire, nor protect them when things go wrong. Yet you can bet your bottom dollar many will come to Europe, like so many other Muslim immigrants, and set up a mini-Muslim community in our inner cities and expect wider society to bend over backwards to accept them and their alien and oppressive cultures (and many of our friends on the Left will willingly brown-nose these communities, even though their cultures are often oppressive and patriarchal – patronising Black people, as is the wont of the Left).

    Yes, we should help immigrants by all means, by supporting decent camps – and by not sticking our nose in other nation’s business. Cameron is still wanting to oust Bashar al-Assad – has he learned nothing from Afghanistan, Iraq and Libya? Since the time of Mohammed, Muslims have had a habit of killing other Muslims (far more Muslims are killed by Muslims than attackers of any other religion) – just lets offer help at arm’s length – and even then, only to the most vulnerable.

    • Harryagain

      The arrival of muslims is part of the master plan for a world caliphate.
      All laid out in the evil cult book.
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taqiya

      • Abie Vee

        You want to pack in that internet… its warping your mind.

        • Harryagain

          Ah.Demonstrating the usual socialist trick of ignoring facts/reality in favour of some theoretical Lala Land that doesn’t exist.

          • Abie Vee

            Evil cults my arz. The world is full of fruitcakes and dingbats. They’re ten a penny on the net. Pay your money and take your pick. I bet you’ve got a copy of The Protocols of the Elders of Zion under your pillow too!

            Fool bwoy…

    • Abie Vee

      Nationalism and jingoism? Gosh… as if they’re alone there. And us with the great national mourn-fest of Poppy-tyranny-Day upon us again too.

      I thought “the politics of envy” was a left-wing phenomena… you seem rather addicted to it. Poor ssoul.

      So, er, poorer people make up a disproportionate amount of the prison population do they… well WHO’D-a guessed that, eh?

      Alien cultures swamping us… gosh that takes me back. Whenever I hear your people ventriloquising “our culture” I reach for my Kalashnikov. I’d have to say that whatever it is that passes for your culture is likely as alien to me of that of the Shona!

      ALL people do not come here because they are failures… they come here for self-betterment. The UK enriched herself beyond dreams of avarice at the expense of the world’s natural resources (including slavery). Now it’s pay back time! They want it back! I’d check out the Sunday Times Rich List if I were you.

      You know absolutely nothing about Muslim history. That much is quite apparent.. your ignorance precedes your every utterance like a Red-warning flag.

      • Dennis Lessenis

        Actually I know an awful lot about Islamic history (enough to know which adjective to use at any rate!) – but I won’t bore you with my academic achievements. However – please forgive me for not possessing the same enviable level of academic and intellectual ability as yourself – but can you tell me why you misread what are perfectly reasonable questions – putting a pejorative slant that is not in the original comment?

        e.g. I state: ‘Let’s remember, ALL immigrants come to the UK and the West in general because they have been failed by their own culture.’ – whereas you have misread what I have said, paraphrasing my words as: ‘ALL people.. come here because they are failures.’ – Do, do learn to read – before flying off into the vanity of victimhood and the conceit of paranoia. I have said people are failed by their cultures – not that they are failures themselves – your misquote, is no doubt a silly mistake on your part, but one which mars your credibility as a witness for my prosecution…

        I have no problems with immigration or with other cultures come to the UK – I am just noting that we need to ask why it is some immigrant groups produce a disproportionate number of successes (e.g. Jews, Hindus, Sikhs etc.) – while others appear to produce a disproportionate number of people who become the have-nots of society – and disproportionately engage in criminal behaviour (and this is n’t about poverty – the taxi drivers of Rochdale, Rotherham, etc. didn’t abuse teenage girls because of poverty, did they? The 7/7 bombers weren’t on benefits, were they?). Now read what I have written with care (to avoid your previous mistake of misreading a pertinent question in your haste to condemn) – I am not saying immigrants per se are bad for the UK and Europe – I am just noting that there may be elements of some non-occidental cultures that are at odds with Western culture and have a negative impact in our contemporary society.

        Therefore, in your omniscience, please tell me why it is Jews, Indian Sikhs and Hindus, Ugandan Asian, Chinese, etc. can come to the UK in poverty – yet many go one to become the ‘haves’ of society – and why it is Muslims – as noted – the majority of whom are law abiding and productive members of society – yet still are over represented in our prisons and welfare services. Surely this cannot all be down to racism, as Indians and Ugandan are not white – there have to be cultural reasons that at least play some part in the over representation of some groups in our welfare and criminal justice system?

        I don’t think this is an unreasonable question – do you?

        • Abie Vee

          Saturation bombing eh? Is that the plan? You must be right because of the sheer word count. Yeah right.

          The cultural bias of yours is sickening. All immigrants have been failed by their own culture? Or perhaps by centuries of exploitation by the West?

          And it’s an awful conceit, not to say deceit, to imply that there’s something particularly special about our “culture” (whatever you suppose that to be for the moment). It is undoubtedly wealthier than most… the attraction is money, not your imagined culture.

          What else you got? Taxi drivers? Good grief. One minute serial rapists, the next minute law abiding and productive citizens, yet still guilty guilty by association. “At odds”? All we can ask of any citizen is this: obey the law , and pay your taxes. Or face the consequences. That’s it. That’s all. No more, no less.

          I can scarce contain my rage at your glib sophistry. All the evidence proves, beyond doubt, a correlation between prison levels and deprivation. Yet you twatter to me of exceptions. SO WHAT? How is that relevant? There are always exceptions. It’s the exceptions which prove the rule.

          It’s a schoolboy debating rhetorical tactic is it not? . Similar in nature to reductio ad absurdum, or the inductive fallacy. It’s fraudulent. And it makes you a fraud.

          You want an explanation: time.

          • Dennis Lessenis

            Thank you for taking the trouble to respond… Best wishes! D.

          • E.I.Cronin

            No I’d suggest they’ve been failed by overpopulation, endemic corruption, stultifying religion and cultural values. But hey, turn yourself into a whipping post if it feels good. Go easy on the rage, if you’re not careful you’ll get an ulcer. 🙂

          • Dennis Lessenis

            Zealots are totally incapable of any emotion other than rage. It is an unalterable law that people who claim to care about the human race are utterly indifferent to the sufferings of individuals. ~ Quentin Crisp

          • E.I.Cronin

            Very true!

            ‘She was one of those people who rather than just fly to extremes, had decided to take up permanent residence there’ Naked Civil Servant.

            Thanks for the links and stats in your earlier post too. WIll file for reference.

          • Dennis Lessenis

            I am just re-reading the Naked Civil Servant (I last read it 30 years ago) – I don’t always warm to Crisp, but some of his observations on factions and human nature in general are precious!

          • Abie Vee

            I’d say they were failed by the West. In a straight line from the Sykes/Picot Agreement in 1916, to the Balfour Declaration of 1917, to the dismemberment of the Ottoman Empire , to The Cairo Conference of 1921, on to the UN’s disastrous partitioning of The British Palestine Mandate to the present day, invasions and all.

            As Keynes warned Churchill on the eve of the 1921 Cairo Conference: “If you cut up the map of the Middle East with a pair of scissors, you will still be fighting wars there in a hundred years time.”

            The Middle East has been failed and exploited by the West for its own aggrandisement at each and every turn. The West is entirely responsible for all the carnage you see today, for each and every corpse!

          • E.I.Cronin

            Secularisation and democratic reform along Western principles made Turkey a successful nation. Typically leftist tunnel vision – immediately homing in on Western foreign policy failures but abidicating ME nations and cultures from any responsibility for their own disastrous social values, corrupt legal systems and religous conflict. Ataturk dismantled a cruel, incompetent regime and brought half the population, namely women, into civic and political life. Peasants suffered crippling tax rates. Corrupt theocratic regimes have been consistently exploiting and supressing their own populations for centuries without any help from us. Erdogan’s dismantling that legacy – and what do you think the long term legacy of Sunni militancy will be? Have a quick google of overpopulation in the ME – it’s frightening reading.

          • Abie Vee

            I’m not sure that Turkey is too relevant to my point. The Ottoman Empire was carved up between the victorious Allies after WWI, and dictatorial client regimes and unpopular puppet “Kings” and new borders were fashioned seemingly at random. Which is where most of your fanciful modern notions of endless religious conflict mostly begin. Little of which had anything at all to do with secularisation or democratisation. I’d say that Ataturk claims what credit there is for the modernisation of Turkey.

            No help from us? You’re insane. It was everything to do with us. Everything. The British wanted Egypt and the oil reserves of all of Arabia, leaving France with the North African and Mediterranean coastal countries.

            My time line begins at WWI. So yes, I do think that every corpse is our responsibility. I’ve no particular reason to wander too far back in time. That gets a bit murky. And pointless. If you want to know how well the working men of the richest country in the world were treated “by the 1800’s” I suggest you read Jack London’s The People of the Abyss and/or Engels seminal study of the Lancashire working poor and/or some of the reports and studies carried out by the Quakers. I think you’ll soon fall silent. Life expectancy was little more that 50 years at the time of the 1851 Census. The government has plenty of information on infant mortality rates, want and deprivation levels in those days. and so on. You could also read Dickens to catch a whiff of it.

            Incidentally, this bastion of democracy we live in didn’t achieve universal suffrage [one man, one vote, of equal weight] until c. 50 years ago! I remember it well.

          • E.I.Cronin

            You’re dodging my point. Has colonial intervention and western foreign policy had disastrous impact in the MENA? Of course it has. No reasonable person could disagree and skimming comments many conservatives here agree – though not with the bitter, unhinged self-disgust you slather on top of the admission.

            ”I’ve no particular reason to wander too far back in time. That gets a bit murky. And pointless.”

            err… this is the Abie that was happy holding up the Islamic society in Andalucia as a perfect paradise for Jew and Christians on another thread? But yes let’s not go back too far. Start your timeline just after the Turkish genocide of Armenian Christians; Greece, Bulgaria etc.

            You didn’t read my response. I wasn’t referring to continual religious conflict (which is a vast topic but let’s not go there – I might provoke a barking mad Anti-Israel debate) but stagnation. Corruption, overpopulation, religious and social values that inhibit democratic reform and prevent society from functioning effectively are intractable problems in the MENA and either predate Western imperialism or operate independently of it.

            http://www.yourmiddleeast.com/features/overpopulation-egypts-highway-to-breakdown_20544

            Of course working class British suffered short, difficult lives and terrible conditions. NSW was colonised by Welsh, Irish and English fleeing poverty. So need to lecture me about deprivation – my family lived through it.

            ”Today we live in a neo-feudal Corporate kleptocracy”
            Agreed in part. But I prefer it to an Impoverished, Violent, Corrupt Theocracy. 🙂

          • Abie Vee

            Gosh.. another saturation word-bombing. Let’s see where this latest meander through the dense undergrowth of your narrative takes us this time’…

            I can’t remember the context of the Al-Andalus comment; as I recall it was in response to the (your?) oft repeated myth that nothing good ever comes from Islam, only corruption, slaughter and stagnation. Which no doubt will hold true in this current thread. Good… it saves my time. Take it as read.

            Democracy? Ah that old panacea, that Utopian day dream, that monumental fraud. I will say that your precious democracy isn’t worth a lot in many of the word’s societies, and it probably never will be. I would also say that global capitalism and the free market is destroying democracy in the West. One or the other will have to go! Where is your precious sovereignty today, eh? Foreign owners close down our steel industry and we (the Tories anyhow) just shrug: that’s the “market” in action. The market to which they have sold our souls. America is a one-party state (the rich people’s party) and our own is heading that way. The majority of the people want the utilities and the railways returned to public ownership. See that happening? From 1979 through to today there’s barely a pennyworth of difference between the main parties, and FPP keeps the minor parties out of the loop (which is why 40% of the electorate regularly now see no point in voting at all).

            The Asian cultures I lived in for a while are completely different to the West; they do not allow their old people to die alone and unloved in care homes… the extended family, the tribe, the clan, each village looks after its own. You will not see Muslim girls running around our city centres late at night, drunk and half-naked.

            Asian people understand the true value of education as the means of self-advancement, unlike the UK with some of the very highest school drop-out rates in the developed world, and our culture of “entitlement”. In Asian culture, if you’re looking for work, the first point of call would be the extended family, the headman, not the dole office.

            Don’t talk to me any more of corruption, as if the East has a monopoly on it. It’s a question of degree and form. You might one day seek to investigate the sudden and mysterious enrichment of Mrs Thatcher’s idiot son Mark. And wonder if there is any link to Blair’s using Royal Prerogative to halt the SFA’s investigation into the Al-Yammah arms deal and others. You might like to ponder the corrupt revolving-door practices between big corporations and government officials (“wheelbarrow loads of money”, as one jolly ex-Admiral put it! The wealthy 1% of the UK are looting the country’s wealth at the expense of the rest of us; the NHS crumbles by design (for eventual asset stripping to vested interests) and there is less and less of our social civic state as we knew it left. It was ours, and it has been stolen.

            Enoch Powell once was asked which society was the most corrupt: The USA or the UK? He paused a while, smiled, and said… well at least you know where you are with American corruption: its right in front of your face. In the UK it is far more insidious. Like the “honours system” he chuckled.

            Of course your last utterance is phony. That isn’t the choice we face.

          • E.I.Cronin

            You wont see Muslim girls in Afghanistan running around full stop because they’re fortressed at home giving birth like a prize cows…. and not many make it to old age.

            -Many women die in pregnancy and childbirth: 460 deaths/100,000 live births (2010)
            -85% of women have no formal education and are illiterate.
            -Female 3rd level students as a % of Total: 18.0%
            -Total live births per woman – average of 6
            -1 out 10 children die before their fifth birthday.
            -Life expectancy for women is 51.– Child marriage: More than 50% of Afghan girls are married or engaged by 12.
            -Almost 60% of girls are married by 16. Women activists say up to 80 percent of marriages in poor rural areas are either forced or arranged.
            -Most girls marry far older men — some in their 60s — whom they meet for the first time at their wedding.

            From the Trust in Education website.

            And you have the self-important, delusional gall to complain and whine about your life in a ”neo-fuedal” society and ‘poppy-oppression’.

          • Abie Vee

            Your imagination runs riot. Yes dear, life is hard in many countries. the extended family is all there is. There is no welfare. Thus many societies have large families in order that the children will , in turn, pay for the aged.

            So what? A few nail-biting statistics for where, Afghanistan, the Sudan? Who cares. That it is how it has always been. But as countries get wealthier things change. You must look at trends, not bare statistics. As societies improve the birth rate declines. This is a phenomena observable throughout the world, in every culture. Much of the Western world is actually in decline, dying, breeding at rates far lower that the natural replacement rate (2.1). Unsurprisingly the two main exceptions are in the war-raved Maghreb and South Sudan where progress has been halted by western intervention. No point giving you a link, Google has close to 2 million pages on the subject.

            I underwent a heart procedure last year. I was under the charge of the same eminent consultant, a Muslim, in the same hospital, as treated the then Prime Minister Blair. Other cardio-vascular doctors I have seen were also Muslims.

            Imagine that? Me, Joe Public, getting the same treatment as the PM in the same hospital under the same consultant and all at no charge! My foreign friends are gob-smacked at such a service! Equally, they find it beyond comprehension that we seem willing to destroy it.

            There’s madness afoot.. and you people are a part of it.

          • E.I.Cronin

            ”That isn’t the choice we face”.

            ps keep bringin’ em in and that’s exactly the choice future generations will have to face. I get the impression you’re not the kind of person who cares too much for the people in your immediate vicinity though.

            Will leave this argument with you. It’s not doing either of us any good.

          • Abie Vee

            Yes dear. Stay well wrapped in your cloak of hatred. It will, I guarantee you, sustain you and keep you warm. It will also eat you up. When the mask slips, you show yourself one or two short steps away from being a spear-shaking savage yourself. And yet you have the cheek to talk to me of caring for others! Goddamn your insolence.

            Be careful how you go my friend; we are all of us nothing more or less than what we make of ourselves.

          • E.I.Cronin

            My last comment to you. The mad, callous key phrase from your response to horrifying stats on trends in women’s education, sexual abuse and welfare in Afghanistan (and which says so much about you) is:

            ”Who cares. That’s how it’s always been.”

            You forgot to add ”Inshallah”.

          • itbeso

            “You will not see Muslim girls running around our city centres late at night, drunk and half-naked.”

            No no you wont because they are imprisoned at home forced into early marriage and endless childbirth. The drunk young women (and men) in our city centres come to their senses grow up, grow out of it and make their own decisions about their lives and reproduction. I know which culture I’d rather if it is a straight choice.
            As for looking after their elderly in the community my dad would be dead if he wasn’t in a care home. His needs at 86 outstrip the families ability to cope with his medical demands and bodily demands. Any Asian parent at home would be dead too. He needs teams of carers, cleaners and cooks on eight hour shifts to car for him.Life expectancy in Pakistan is 66. I’d have been happy to care for my father until 66. He needed no care. Love to see how ‘they care for the elderly within the family’ pans out when life expectancy rises by 20 years.

          • Abie Vee

            Imprisoned? My local Uni is teeming with these poor “imprisoned” people. All three of my local pharmacies are owned and staffed by these poor “imprisoned” people. My two local Tescos and my local petrol station/convenience store seem to be run by them.

            But of course you don’t care about any of that do you? You people like to have it, ahem, both ways. They either” come over here and scrounge on the dole”; or else “they come over here taking our jobs”.

            In short, you people will damn them either way: damned if they do, damned if they don’t! And all of them, every single one of them, damned by association.

            As regards the NHS, I expect the Muslim community to use it, just as we do. I was of course referring to Muslim communities in the Middle and Far East in places where there are no state support systems.. as well you know, yet marveling at the different mortality rates.

            You’re an out and out fraud are you not?

          • Wessex Man

            What you have to rememnber is that Abie babe, is a total tool, who is replied to will bore you into submission, Abie babe has far too much time on her hands, now if only we could get that bloody coffin lid shut!

          • E.I.Cronin

            Quite right WM. Apologies to subscribers and regulars for feeding the troll. Happy to help hold the lid down, she really is mad. Highly informed, but mad.

          • David davis

            You clearly have all the time in the world. I am now sure that you are a student, and probably some sort of “officer” in your uni’s SU.

          • Abie Vee

            At the other end of the scale dear boy: retired (and occasionally housebound by assorted mechanical malfunctions).

          • EasyStreet

            If you paid any attention to Xi Jinping’s visit to the UK this week, you’ll know that he wasn’t attracted by our money. British culture remains a highly attractive thing around the world, so much so that even the leader of a rising superpower came to have some of it rub off on him. I’m glad that he and others still see some value in it.

          • Abie Vee

            Balderdash. As John Adams wrote of the British during the struggle for American Independence “The pride and vanity of that nation is a disease; it is a delirium; it has been flattered and inflamed so long by themselves and others that it perverts everything.”

            And the worst of it all is that, despite all the evidence to the contrary, you STILL believe it”! The British capacity for self-delusion seems to be limitless.

          • EasyStreet

            It’s not just me or even other Brits that believe we still have a disproportionate influence in the world:

            http://softpower30.portland-communications.com/ranking

          • Abie Vee

            Soft power? From 1914 to the present day, an ever increasing slide into irrelevance. Let’s hope we have a soft landing (though I doubt it).

            But what has this got to do with your carefully undefined “culture”. Like Humpty Dumpty , words appear to mean (imply in your unstated case) whatever you want them to mean.

          • EasyStreet

            I suspect that you would define “culture” to meet your own requirements, just as I would mine. Perhaps you are waiting for me to define British culture as village cricket, afternoon tea, warm beer, Christmas and queuing so that you can brand me a reactionary and move on? No such luck. I am aware that “culture” is too slippery a thing to pin down to a list, but I (and I suspect most of the population) understand intuitively what British culture is. Why don’t you pick a country which you believe has a valid “culture” that can be pinned down as such and describe it to me in a post?

          • Abie Vee

            Your every utterance refutes the garbage of a shared culture. Some of us, not all, have a partially shared history; others have trod different paths. .

            And if you can’t define it, then how do you defend your proposition that it attracts people here? In short… it’s jingoistic bolliks isn’t it… a propaganda device to maintain the tradition of obscene inherited wealth and privilege: a class construct. What have the baubles, fripperies and folderols of the pampered elite to do with me (let alone with immigrants)?

          • EasyStreet

            I reject your contention that I must define British culture in order to defend it. People are attracted by their own conceptions of Britain and its culture. Those conceptions will have some common elements; others will vary. What draws people and countries towards the US? The “American dream” for some, the “city on the hill” for others… both vague yet powerful ideas.

            Since you insist on bringing class into it, I will observe that the working class has historically played a strong role in British culture – arguably as influential upon it as royalty. Sadly it’s that working class culture which has increasingly been sidelined and labelled anachronistic by the growth of bourgeois “non-culture”.

            I note you ignored my request to present an example of a state which enjoys a meaningful and easily-defined “culture”.

          • Abie Vee

            I have nothing to say about other cultures. You merely seek to shift emphasis.

            I am refuting your absurd jingoistic appropriation of the term to further your own specious argument that it is “British culture” which attracts immigrants here (what you earlier called a “thing” I believe). “Culture” you witter without being able to define what you mean. Presumably, it’s the same “culture” which propels the Scots towards independence? And Osborne in his class-war against the poorest and most disadvantaged sections of society? And Cameron in his attack upon Human Rights and the rights of organised labour.. And the gutter press in its thinly disguised dog-whistle racism and Islamophobia?

            You and I are wasting our time here. I’ll leave you waving your plastic Union Flag (made in Taiwan) and to your arrogant foolishness and self-deception.

          • Abie Vee

            So you say, without a shred of supportive evidence.

          • Abie Vee

            Quite right: he wasn’t “attracted here by our money.” He was attracted here because this is the knock-down bargain-basement of Europe… he wanted to see what goodies he could pick up on the cheap from the shameless spivs of this Tory government.

            A national disgrace. I can only begin to imagine the fury of the gutter press if a Labour government was kowtowing to China with outstretched begging bowls in such a humiliating manner.

          • EasyStreet

            Ermm, didn’t you just say that the only thing that attracted other countries to us was our money?

          • Abie Vee

            Er, um, don’t be a tw@ all your life: The modern-day Emperor of China is not an immigrant or a refugee! Are you drunk this early in the day? Things are indeed easy on Easy Street.

          • EasyStreet

            Quoting your own post back to you, then: “And it’s an awful conceit, not to say deceit, to imply that there’s something particularly special about our “culture” (whatever you suppose that to be for the moment). It is undoubtedly wealthier than most… the attraction is money, not your imagined culture.”

          • Abie Vee

            The attraction for immigrants is self-betterment for themselves and their families (money for short); businessmen too come hereseeking investment opportunities (money for short); Emperors come here to see what’s could be in it for them.

            Your “culture” is a nebulous insidious concept, largely the stuff and nonsense of rabid nationalism… a Humpty Dumpty word which can mean whatever people want it to mean. And as I said, I’ll wager it is as alien to me as that of the Shona!

            You do know that the Earth orbits the Sun don’t you.. not the other way around. British “culture” my arz.

          • Abie Vee

            Ermmm, the people of other countries (in context, immigrants).

          • obert

            how about you answer the guy’s question.

          • Sue Smith

            Why not just ignore an insecure, self-loathing troll?

          • Abie Vee

            Which one?

        • Sue Smith

          Well argued, but I personally prefer my own culture and its values and habits – not those of others. In Australia we have the multi-cultural rainbow but it bores me absolutely rigid, to be honest, for the most part. I’ve met friendly and interesting people in my day to day life from all over the world and I’ve briefly enjoyed their company – but they speak English and have got “with the program”!! That’s when I can appreciate them – when we have a common language.

          I love the opera, ballet, symphony orchestra, sailing, swimming, books, writing, high quality film (that includes foreign film with sub-titles) the creative arts. I am drawn to others who like these things and my experience shows me they are predominantly from my own Anglo-Saxon or Celtic cultures. I’ll put my hand up and say, “that’s the way I prefer it”.

          No common language, no common culture. End of story.

          • Dennis Lessenis

            I’m still awaiting Abie Vee’s answer to my question why it is Jews, Indian Hindus and Sikhs, Ugandan Asians, etc. can come to the UK and become the ‘haves’ of society – a real asset to the UK – while a disproportionate number of Muslims find themselves in our prisons and welfare services? Of course the answer is rooted in culture – but that is not what the likes of Abie Vee want to hear – they like to patronise non-white cultures. Their attitude is actually a species of narcissism: they are Little Jack Horners – telling themselves how ‘good’ they are – to hold their ‘right on’ views. They don’t like awkward facts that might reveal their wishful thinking and subjugation of black people for what it is: just another form of cultural and ideological imperialism.

        • MathMan

          ‘Muslims are productive members of society’. About 80% live off our taxes. Please define ‘productive’ in this context.

          • Dennis Lessenis

            I find that hard to believe – please can you provide a link with the evidence.

            Mind you, there’s a lot of white trash that live off our taxes too – perhaps if we could get some of the benefit scum back into work, we wouldn’t need migrants at all! I always find it curious when I revisit family up North, that you can walk around the centre of the mill town, on the periphery of Manchester, where I grew up (born and bred on a dog rough council estate and proud of it!) – and there’s lots of white trash, trackie bottom lads and foul mouth tarts pushing prams. Yet if you happen to go into the reference library there’s almost not a white face – Asian teenagers doing their homework – en route to university.

            Mind you, the town has a religious feel – as many of the white trash walk with crutches or walking sticks (often used incorrectly) or are heaving their benefit fed obese bodies around on mobility scooters – its like a pilgrimage to Lourdes. It’s bad enough being stuck with scrounging scum, without having alien cultures too.

      • nicnac

        Next time you reach for your Kalashnikov try sitting on it, you appalling windbag.

        • Abie Vee

          Did you really spend two hours thinking that up, or did your Mummy suggest it for you. (I already expect she presses the keys for you).

          • E.I.Cronin

            Abie why are you voluble and tireless when articulating the failures of westen foreign policy but lapse into silence on the graphic, shocking horrors other nations inflict upon their populations..? do you have personal esteem issues? everything ok at home? hungry? angry? lonely? tired?

          • David davis

            I think she’s been “radicalized” by her “university”.

          • E.I.Cronin

            I think you’re right Davis! Abiewould be a much happier person if she just voted UKIP… you can sense the conflict raging within.

          • Sue Smith

            Awe, come on, she’s only repeating what her tutor and lecturer in ‘social science’ have told her ad nauseum.

          • E.I.Cronin

            Snicker… Sue when I was a very green 19 I went to a University Advisor about what I should do with my life. She drawled… ”well young man what can the higher education system do for you besides a completely useless humanities degree?’ I stuttered something about Anthropology and after rolling her eyes she took pity on me and said ‘I know a fellow who did that – brilliant Anthropologist. Drives delivery trucks for David Jones. You want my advice kid? Get a trade certificate.’ Best advice I’ve ever had!!

          • Dennis Lessenis

            Thanks! My doctorate is in the sociology of religion! 😉 – and my masters is in Religion & Politics (with a big chunk on Islam and Islamic history – that’s why I found our ignorant friend, Abie Vee’s comment ‘You know absolutely nothing about Muslim history’ so amusing!). What has shaped much of my antipathy to the Left was training as a social worker 20 years ago and the endless chanting of the Catechism of the Hierarchy of Oppression that was a subliminal attribute of the course. If you were a white, middle-class, heterosexual male you were scum on that course – however, if you were a one legged, black, lesbian you were ‘king’ of the heap. Yet even then I noted a curious blind spot on the part of the Left when it came to Islam and the communities and societies it gives rise to.

            It is curious how so many on the Left happily whine on about the West and its history – particularly imperialism and colonialism and yet happily turn a blind eye to the imperialism and colonialism that has been much of Islamic history. The next greatest imperial power after the fall of the Roman Empire was of course Islam – initially the Caliphate and then the Ottoman Empire. Left wing histories and contemporary ideologies don’t like to think about the flagrant oppressive and misogynistic attributes of Islamic societies and communities – nor its colonialism. These uncomfortable truths are side-stepped in the Left’s desire to patronise non-Western cultures – using these cultures and peoples as pawns in their own ideological war against Capitalism – or less easily defined personal demons (as I suspect is the case with Abie Vee). It’s actually a subtle form of racism – placing on the West a culpability not extended to the excesses of Islam and its associated cultures – or other non-occidental societies and cultures.

            The most stark example is how the Slave Trade is viewed by these Lefties – we hear a good deal about the ‘Triangular’ slave trade – slaves to Africa, raw materials to Europe, manufactured goods to Africa to be exchanged for slaves. Yes, it was wicked, but we rarely, if ever, hear any culpability being placed on the African corner of that triangle – Africans willingly captured their countrymen and sold them into slavery (slavery was alive and well in Africa long before a white man ever set foot there!). Africa is absolved of this crime against humanity. The fact Africans are afforded less culpability than Europeans is in reality saying they are lesser human beings, they didn’t know better… or at least they didn’t know as much as the Europeans – a gross and insulting form of patronisation. It is a subtle, yet pernicious species of racism: a hierarchy of culpability tells us about how our Lefty friends organise the world in their heads – patronising black people, regarding them as less able to make moral decisions or take responsibility for their actions than their white counterparts.

            A good, modern day, example of this Left Wing paternalistic racism can be found in Ken Livingston and George Galloway support of the disgraced Mayor of Tower Hamlets, Lutfur Rahman (http://www.eastlondonadvertiser.co.uk/news/politics/ken_livingstone_and_george_galloway_defend_tower_hamlets_mayor_lutfur_rahman_at_rally_1_3847972 ) His corrupt electioneering and administration is a stark example of what happens when alien cultures are allowed to take root in a Western democracy. Livingston and Galloway arse lick crooks from a culture that subjugates women and thrives on corruption and oppression – all because Livingston and Galloway are using them to further their own political and ideological goals. If a white, Tory mayor and council was to behave like Rahman and his cronies Livingston and Galloway would screaming from the roof tops their opposition to such corruption and greed – but when it is a black Muslim, a patronising, blind eye is turned and Livingston and Galloway and their supporters wallow in their own hypocrisy.

            I wonder if we can now put the genie back in the bottle. I don’t think we can – but I think we need to arrest any further imposition of alien cultures on Western society. The irony is that unregulated immigration is an open door to losing everything that makes the West attractive to immigrants.

          • Sue Smith

            This is a wonderful read! Thank you for your terrific ideas which make total sense to me. I’m cutting and pasting them to my family and friends, many of whom feel the same as I do about this unfolding horror in Europe, Scandinavia and the UK.

            I’ve already alluded to educated “useful idiots” but, of course, they are only useful to other idiots. There are just so many of them now, worryingly. I also made the comment that much of the Left’s so-called moral positioning is a revenge reflex because of their own sense of ‘marginalization’ in our capitalist world – not caring, or actually being capable of, being able to rationalizing capitalism as the single system which has lifted more people out of poverty than ever before in world history – and exponentially at that.

            The paternalistic racism and its pernicious consequences is indeed tremendously frightening. And you have hit the mark; by excusing the behaviours of corrupt, misogynistic and perversely narrow-minded muslims the white community and its hate-fuelled armies are actually signing their own petitions for incarceration because, surely, once the rebarbative, medieval Imams and their minions start to make decisions the very first thing to go will be FREEDOM of speech. But I don’t think the Left is very intelligent – and these kinds of people are those of whom we should be very wary. They are sufficiently bullying to make sure the rest of us are howled down but not intelligent enough to see where it’s all going. They want to overturn the status quo, have the society run by an oligarchy of activists, human rights lawyers and minorities with them at the apex – naturally.

            The genie cannot return to the bottle. And I fear that politicians are not one bit prescient or brave and are unlikely to act because, by now, immigrant groups form a substantial sector of the constituency and provide a huge voting block.

            I wrote a letter to the major Australian newspaper some few years ago when all this was afoot. I talked about what it might have been like for the indigenous population facing the First Fleet from Britain. It went something like this…

            “On that fateful day in 1770 a group of aboriginals would have espied that fleet sailing into Botany Bay. Quickly they would have rallied their brothers and sallied forth with every available implement to fend off the mysterious invaders. But the wisest man in the tribe would have stopped them, speaking in a cautious, pacifist and conciliatory tone…”put down your weapons; they mean no harm – let them come”.

            FAMOUS LAST WORDS.

          • Dennis Lessenis

            Many thanks for your kind words. I work in central London and love working in a multicultural city – however I think immigration should come with strings – a points system, like that of Australia – and immediate deportation of criminals – saw this story in the Evening Standard the other night which demonstrates everything that is wrong with our current immigration system: a failed asylum seeker (from Bangladesh – news to me, that it is a war torn country, I thought it was one of the success stories of the developing world), who sexually assaulted his rickshaw passenger – what was he doing here, if he’s a failed asylum seeker? Let him serve his sentence and then straight to Heathrow and off to Dhakka – no ifs or buts. See: http://www.standard.co.uk/news/crime/jailed-rickshaw-driver-who-sexually-assaulted-clubber-after-giving-her-free-lift-in-return-for-a-a3095456.html it’s a depressing read!

            As we were watching the news the other night, there was a piece on immigrants in Calais: my partner turned to me and quoted from Gibbon’s The Rise and Fall of the Roman Empire: ‘Empires are destroyed from within…’.

      • E.I.Cronin

        Ottoman genocide of Armenians ring a bell? Arab slave traders in Africa supplying the Atlantic trade which your country not only helped abolish but sent out the West Africa Squadron… does any of that ring a bell? Hindu Kush named (Hindu Killer) after the legions of Indians who died on their way to the slave bazaars of Arabia and Central Asia… ring a bell? Slavery was indigenous to Africa centuries before Europeans and formed the basis of tribal societies wealth. Slavery was ubiquitous in the ancient world. Funnily it was only recently outlawed in the Islamic Republic of Mauritania, but you knew that didn’t you with your encyclopedic knowledge ofIslamic history. I can highly recommend ‘Jihad in the West’ by Paul Fregosi. He doesn’t pull hispunches with Western civilisation’s abuses and barbarism, but we have alot more to be proud of than many cultures.

        Your statement about your own culture says it all – that amoral, borderless, loyalty free view is the reason western nations now have a terrorist subculture that costs billions to police and monitor. Not to mention all the other problems Dennis lists. But hey… buy another Polish banger for a quid fifty and sing ‘It’s all been rather lovely”.

        • Sue Smith

          ABSOLUTELY BRILLIANT. Thank you.

          • E.I.Cronin

            Sue I kept this interesting article by a black American academic who published a controversial book on the Atlantic slave trade.

            http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/23/opinion/23gates.html?_r=0

            Another gem which a friend here recommended is ‘Dark Albion: A requiem for the English’ by David Abbott which devotes a chapter to the slave trade and it’s origins in pre-European contact Africa as well as the role of Muslims leaders. He is devastating on how politicised the issue has become and it’s use as a shaming tactic. It’s a bitterly angry and brilliant book. He has a new release coming out soon called ‘Offensive Diatribes’ which will no doubt live up to it’s name!

          • UKSteve

            As usual, from E.I.Cronin 🙂

        • tamimisledus

          Excellent reply.

          I have written a (very) potted overview of the essential element of muslim history here – https://disqus.com/home/discussion/spectator-new-www/on_migration_simon_schama_doesnt_even_have_an_argument/#comment-2326214268
          I expect that none of this is unfamiliar to you, but I would appreciate your feedback, if you have time, on its effectiveness. You are quite welcome to use any ideas which you feel beneficial.

          Thanks for the book recommendations.

          Thanks for reading.

          • E.I.Cronin

            Thanks very much for this. Will be very happy to read and give feedback. I’ve learnt so much from Speccie commentators and sharing information strengthens our case in the culture wars. Will read it at home rather than on my phone. More in a few days.

          • tamimisledus

            Thanks for taking the time to acknowledge my comment.

            I also agree that it is critical that we should share information. muslims have been developing their strategy and tactics over 1400 years. We need to coordinate our efforts if we are going to defeat the monster that is islam, before it ends up putting an end to human kind.

          • E.I.Cronin

            Hey I just tried opening the link but No Page Found. Feel free to send the history to me on an old conversation? (I post on Liddle and D. Murray articles). Agreed wholeheartedly – it’s noticeable how Muslims, particularly young activists, come to the table with pre-packaged supremacist arguments ready. It blindsides a lot of people. Look forward to reading.

          • tamimisledus

            Sorry for the inconvenience cause by failure of the link. I just tried it out on my system and it worked, but that’s no guarantee that it will at all times in all places. That’s just the way it is with the “Internet of Strings” [sic]

            I have linked it here again – https://disqus.com/home/discussion/spectator-new-www/on_migration_simon_schama_doesnt_even_have_an_argument/#comment-2326214268

            with his non-reply – https://disqus.com/home/discussion/spectator-new-www/on_migration_simon_schama_doesnt_even_have_an_argument/#comment-2326406089
            His reply offers no argument but is the kind of response these ignorant blinkered individuals offer in order to evade informed debate.

            I tried to look up your previous disqus comments and they are private so noone can see them. This may be a deliberate tactic by you, but it does prevent others from easily seeing where you have previously posted. In this case, I may have to search quite widely to find another blog piece where you have commented so that I can give a copy of my “history of islam” if necessary.

            Once again, thanks for reading, and if I may be so bold, please don’t feel that you are under any obligation to consider my earlier comment if you have higher priority tasks.

          • E.I.Cronin

            Got it! Will have a read, ponder and will get back to you with feedback in a few days. Take care.

          • E.I.Cronin

            Hi mate, I’ve had a read and I think you’ve captured all the main points. I would suggest a few additions and changes though. These are just my thoughts and of course you will take them or leave them as you see fit. Your idea of having a ‘potted’ essay full of facts, dates and events ready for use in debate is very useful.
            1) I would recommend including a few dates such as when Islam was founded, the d/o/b and death of it’s founder and the dates of Islamic Empires. When people will read your essay the first thing they will want to do is test it’s accuracy against a encyclopedia’s etc . So the more dates, terms and countries that you list – I believe the more people will trust the truth of what you are saying rather than assuming it is just your opinion.
            2) Perhaps name a few countries that the early Muslims conquered in the Middle East? Also mention Islamic empires such as the Ottoman Empire and it’s origin, extent and collapse. Perhaps add the siege of Constantinople too?
            3) Perhaps include several key Islamic terms with their English translations such as Jihad (Holy War), Sharia, Al-Hijrah, Kuffir, etc and you mention Dhimmi status (servitude) as well. This gives your essay more authority and informs people who so far, have very little knowledge of the central themes of Islam. Robert Spencer’s website is a great resource and another one I would recommend is ”POLICTICAL ISLAM’. It’s an extremely useful site, vey professional with great textual analysis.
            4) I would also add a few choice quotes such as ‘Fight until all religion is in the Way of Allah’; ‘War is ordained for you, even if ye like it not’ and any others that confirm the message you’re trying to convey to people.
            I hope this helps and good luck with all your debate and discussion. We all have a part to play in defending our cultures.
            Good luck and feel free to drop me a line as you keep working on the history.
            take care

          • E.I.Cronin

            Ps its frightening how many voters endorse indiscriminate immigration and have no knowledge at all about the content of Islamic scripture and history.i think your ‘potted’ history is a great tool. Good on you.

          • tamimisledus

            Thanks for taking the time to read and comment.

            At the very beginning of my (limited) activity against islam, I have had the idea of a “Little Purple Book” which would contain high level debunking of the islamic myth and what must be done to protect ourselves against muslims who carry this virus.

            This would contain such statements as “*allah is the terrorist in chief”, “*allah* hates non-muslims”, “islam is not a religion”, “islam is political doctrine”, “islam is at perpetual war” and the like. This would be backed up by such as my micro expose on islam and its history of conquest. Further backed by detail such as you and people like you can provide, and the anti-muslim literature in general.

            More and more people are becoming aware of the apocalypse that we are faced with islam. [Unfortunately, that is offset by the number of people who have been taken in by muslim propaganda.] We need to maximise that knowledge and coordinate our efforts.

            In that spirit, just in case you are not aware of them, may I bring to your attention tweeter @wmsolomon (amongst many others) and Paul Weston at http://libertygb.org.uk/v1/. I tweet under the handle of @tamimisledus:disqus. Also this worthy book – http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0979492955? – confirms what I have long been saying about islam, that the real danger (serious though it is) does not come from muslim terrorism, but from muslims who have “settled” in the West. And, as you have pointed out, this is a situation which is only going to get much worse as Western governments sit idly by and allow millions more raised in the primitive social doctrine of islam to invade Europe.
            Again thanks for listening.

          • E.I.Cronin

            Thanks mate and no problem at all. There are so many excellent books coming out that Islam critical work is almost a genre. I will have a look at the link you’ve sent. I heard about Paul Weston (he posts here occasionally) and watched several of his youtube clips. Unfortunately I’m social media dinosaur – I don’t have FB or Tweet. Am resisting the tide but will eventually have to use both for work. But will see you on the threads here . Take care now.

        • bramhall

          Who was it oppressing he Greeks until the mid nineteenth century? Who was it that tried o take over Europe until repelled at he Gates of Vienna?. Who was such a threat to Europe hat they sent a huge Armada and fought the battle of Lepanto?. Who invade Spain?

          • E.I.Cronin

            Who slaughtered 30,000 Bulgarians in the 1876 uprising?

            Extraordinary country – how many centuries of brutal suppression and they still managed to reignite their national identity and flourish.

            Islamic minorities in Bulgaria have caused so much grief and conflict.

            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turks_in_Bulgaria

        • KittyR

          Excellent – thank you.

      • EasyStreet

        “Poppy-tyranny-Day”? Well you can refuse to wear one and natter away through the two minutes’ silence (preferably in private) if you really feel that way. The rest of us are more than happy to take part in an annual period of reflection that is sufficiently well-entrenched to count as part of British culture (we do actually have such a thing, even if you choose not to recognise or participate in it). I’ll make the blindingly obvious point that over 600,000 Commonwealth citizens were killed or injured fighting against tyrannical regimes in WW2, and to this day we enjoy the fruits of their sacrifice. “Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it”.

      • David davis

        You must be a very young student.

        • UKSteve

          I think “student” was stretching it a bit. That would require, study, reading, etc., and as we’ve seen from Abie Vee, he / she doesn’t really do that.

        • Dennis Lessenis

          I don’t think so – I suspect this is a mature student – an ‘Educating Rita’ type who’s suddenly found a new creed, something to believe in, employing a rather selective view of history and contemporary politics which feeds the narcissism of the would-be Left Wing proto-academic. She certainly displays all the zeal of the convert. I’ve had such students when practice teaching social work – they fulfil the adage ‘A little knowledge is a dangerous thing…’.

          One of the reasons why children’s social work ran into serious problems was because Leftie, white-middle class values or black, inverted pride, turned a blind eye to abuse that was hidden under the umbrella of ‘cultural attitudes’ – where non-white families could (alas in some cases literally) get away with murder. And/or every social problem was reduced to class and race politics and social inequality. Personal accountability was ignored in a patronising desire to portray non-white people as victims. This has resulted in an inverted pride mentality in many of our BEM communities – thinking their difference makes them special – when in reality it is a testament of their failure (and unwillingness) to integrate into our society – not to mention culture in this country which hasn’t encourage assimmilation, but has championed ‘valuing diversity’ – a charter for allowing immigrants to ‘have their cake and eat it…’. They want the advantages of Western, liberal democracy, but not the responsibilities – we don’t see this with many Indians or Ugandan Asians or Jewish immigrants – and that is why I think it is necessary to ask questions about the wisdom of accepting some alien cultures into Europe and the UK in particular.

      • Sue Smith

        I don’t personally care as long as the pay-back comes directly from YOU and nobody else. Since you are busy telling other people their obligations then it stands to reason you’ll feel your own more acutely.

        You know it makes sense!

        • Abie Vee

          I know your comment doesn’t make sense.

          • Wessex Man

            Oh Abie babe stop making yourself look such a fool by debating with adults.

      • bugshead

        oh dear you are clearly another liberal imbecile with no ability to think past sound bites, the arguments clearly go straight over your head

        • Abie Vee

          That sounds suspiciously like a soundbite to me.

      • tamimisledus

        “….you don’t know anything about muslim history….”
        Well in case that is true, let me help him and maybe quite a few others.
        In the seventh century the muslims began to conquer and plunder the surrounding lands. At the same time, they invented a character called *allah* who, very conveniently for them, gave them a fictitious authority to carry on that conquest and plunder over the entire planet.
        And the muslims took that authority to heart. For the last 1400 hundred years they have been invading and plundering in widening circles ever since. A fundamental part of those invasions was to turn their victims into inferior class of citizen, forcing them to live in ghettos. That is, if they didn’t kill them or sell them off as slaves.
        Today, they are still following those primitive barbaric practices. Of course in the meantime their methods, though not their aim of world domination, have changed. The muslim societies in which most muslims live (some live in non-muslim societies like UK) have failed. These societies are no longer able to wage war on non-muslims societies. Fortunately for them, but most unfortunately for the decent people in the UK, these muslims have allies among those ignorant of, or unconcerned about the harmful effect that muslims have on the societies in which they live. These are the equivalent of the treacherous quislings that the Nazis relied on when they invaded European countries.
        There you have it, the key elements of muslim history over the past 1400 years. A history of conquest and plunder. A history which muslims will pursue unless they are stopped. A history which if not stopped will lead to the complete collapse of human civilisation.
        A history, backed with the evil doctrine of islam. A doctrine of hatred, intolerance, racism, fear, terror, destruction, violence, ignorance, superstition, lies, stupidity and more. An anti-women, anti-human, anti-progress, anti-knowledge doctrine. All of which shows why muslim societies fail their citizens, and why muslims have to constantly seek for ways of invading and overrunning non-muslim countries, peacefully if they can. But ruthlessly waging war, whenever they are in a strong enough position, in their everlasting aim of world domination.

        • Abie Vee

          All gods are amatter of the imagination. “Man cannot make but a flea; yet he will be making gods by the dozen.” Montaigne.

          The Zionist Jews, meanwhile, have also recently invented a God who apparently deals in Real Estate.

          And nice little fairy tale you narrate. .. full of paranoia and demons. Just the thing for Halloween. Tell me, was it beaten into you at your yeshiva? I expect so.

      • Dennis Lessenis

        I’m still awaiting your answer – odd for someone who in the above claims to be so omniscient, you have become so silent. Please, please, we’re longing to hear your answers to the question posed. Let’s be frank here, you are the one who has made nasty accusations – and is ever so self-righteous. Mind you, I shouldn’t be surprised at this – it is a common trait of the Sanctimonious Lefty – ‘DO AS I SAY, THINK HOW I TELL YOU TO THINK – BUT DON’T DO AS I DO…’.

        • Abie Vee

          Despite ALL THE SHOUTING, and sanctimonious twaddle, you’ll wait for a very long time for an answer until you make yourself clear. What is it that bamboozles you so? I’m fkd of I know… there’s so much of it.

          “Nasty accusations” too eh? That too is a sweeping generalisation is it not? You must make yourself clear dear. Like the Chinese government, I don’t answer hypothetical questions.

          • Dennis Lessenis

            NO, NO, your just full of sh*t!

          • Abie Vee

            Er, what question?

            Around and around in circles we go. Why are you so shy of being open about it? Do you even have a question?Come along, don’t be coy.

            I mistakenly misunderstood your comments, it seems; I took them as a narrative, a polemic, a stream of consciousnesses meaner through the smoke rings of your mind. I completely missed the point that you were seeking answers… I thought you already knew all the answers.

          • Abie Vee

            I rest my case.

  • Three paper tigers and straw man – you racists really need to do better 😉

    • Sue Smith

      You are part of the problem, not part of the solution.

  • artemis in france

    The media is to blame, Rod. These people have far too much airtime. Why is it that those who actually represent the majority view aren’t present in larger numbers on such programmers? If, say, 80percent of the population hold the same view as you, why isn’t there an equivalent representation on the panel? Because the bien pendants hold all the cards. I imagine that most people watching Question Time share their view too. Hardly worth appearing on it in that case because you’re wasting your breath. It’s a great shame and v frustrating for the rest of us but feeding the monstrous BBC is counter-productive. If those who hold sensible opinions stop feeding the lefties with an argument the programme will die.

    • Matthew O’Malley

      I agree. I don’t think Rod’s view has been articulated once in the media as far as I can recall. If this view were expounded upon I’d wager that the tide of public opinion or at least the media Zeitgeist would change. Call me a cynic but there must be a reason for this.

  • bugshead

    Simon Schama is Jewish. He believes that the history of the Jews entitles his views on humanity and suffering to be correct and to supercede the views of others, especially any whose views differ. It’s just crap really.

    • Sue Smith

      The trick is NOT to dignify the remarks by either listening to and/or commenting on them. It only gives these oxygen bandits more, well, oxygen.

  • rtj1211

    I guess it’s 150 years too late to say the following to economic migrants without an EU passport:

    1. Go home, you have no right to be here and pay your own way please.
    2. If you won’t, we will put in an internment camp where you will work10 hrs a day for no pay as an economic prisoner, until you feel sufficiently discouraged that you decide to go home of your own accord.
    3. If after 24 months of slave labour you are still sufficiently idiotic not to have gone home, we will take you out into a field and have you shot.

    I’m all ears as to more ‘humane’ mechanisms to get all these economic migrants to go home (I did suggest daily parachute drops 3 years ago, but Mrs May hasn’t yet sought a budget from Mr Cameron for this more humane option, although which North African territory you drop them on may determine whether it is humane or a return to pretty certain death….) – perhaps in her bid for the Tory leadership, she could grasp the nettle by doing so before Christmas??!!)

    • mdj

      Why exempt the EU passport holders? We have much closer historic, linguistic and cultural connections with Commonwealth and former Empire countries. Before the EU, people travelled freely internationally, and frequently worked and settled abroad too; the difference is that it was with the consent of the countries visited, with respect to their own interests.

  • RH156

    Immigration and the price of a liberal conscience

    Posted on October 20, 2015by Robert Henderson

    Robert Henderson

    British politicians and the mainstream media has been excitedly pointing to what they describe as the great generosity of the British public in offering to take immigrants into their homes. The reality is rather different for the number of people living in Britain who have offered a home to immigrants is meagre, a few thousand out of a British population of approximately 64 million. Even this small number is highly suspect because these are merely people who have offered to take refugees without being tested by the reality of having people in their home. Moreover, many of those who have offered have not done so in an open ended fashion. Instead they have put their hands up for a few weeks or months or perhaps even a year, although the reality of assessing asylum claims is several years and conceivably much longer. Longer term

    Much of the enthusiasm for taking in immigrants has been expressed not by offering to lodge them in private homes but in lobbying councils to find accommodation for immigrants. This is unlikely to cost those lobbying anything because such people will most probably not be in need of social housing or live in an area which will be flooded with immigrants. Nor are they likely to be sending their children to schools which boast “there are 93 languages spoken here” or be unable to get an appointment with their GP or a hospital consultant quickly because the population of their area has suddenly soared. . It is also improbable that they or their children will lose their chance of a decent job to an immigrant or have their pay reduced because immigrants are willing to work for less. The people who will lose out are the poorer members of society. They will find themselves competing with immigrants for housing, jobs, schools and medical care.

    The stark reality of mass immigration is that those who advocate taking in immigrants, most of them from the Third and Second worlds, are stealing from the poorer of their own people. Let me list what they steal:

    Employment, both by taking jobs and by reducing wages .

    Housing, both by taking housing (including large amounts of social housing) and by forcing up house prices and private rents.

    School opportunities by both taking places and reducing the quality of the schooling available to the British children through larger classes and the extra time and money devoted to dealing with children who speak inadequate English.

    University opportunities, both by immigrants taking places (especially in subjects such as medicine) and by the reduction in the quality of the education offered through immigrant students having poor English or by being simply intellectually inadequate. There is a strong venal incentive for universities to take large numbers of such people because, unlike British and EU students, students from outside the EU pay the full cost of their courses. A large part of the university learning experience depends on student interaction both inside and outside the classroom. The poorer the quality of students, the less opportunity for the able student to learn because of the inability of inadequate students to express themselves intelligently.

    Healthcare. GPs surgeries are being swamped in many areas because of immigration and anyone who has visited a NHS hospital recently in places such as London will have been astonished at the number of foreign patients there are (I speak from personal experience).

    More generally, when immigrants arise in large numbers they invariably form ghettoes. This means that Britons who live in areas anywhere such ghettoes formed rapidly find that the place with which they are familiar becomes somewhere alien .

    If those who advocated mass immigration had to pay a real price for their parading of their conscience you may be assured that their enthusiasm would vanish as quickly as the morning dew. What should be the price? Here are a couple of scenarios:

    Read more at https://englandcalling.wordpress.com/2015/10/20/immigration-and-the-price-of-a-liberal-conscience/

    • Harryagain

      All true.
      But you missed a bit.
      These migrants are the very people their home country needs the most.
      Syria for example is doomed without them.

      • tamimisledus

        Very true.
        But it also has much wider implications.
        As the UK has failed to develop its infrastructure particularly in health and education, but also many other areas of its economy, it has been forced to go abroad to recruit staff. Often this will be at the expense of much poorer countries who will be deprived of their trained personnel in whom they have invested much of the country’s very limited resources.
        We hear much about crimes against humanity, but this economic crime which can cause much more damage is rarely mentioned.

        • Harryagain

          What you mean is that brain dead socialists have destroyed our education system.

        • mdj

          Surely it has chosen to go abroad to recruit staff? For those who wonder where our missing home-grown nurses, doctors and teachers are, ask yourselves how much it has benefited this country to see the legal and accountancy professions multiply five-fold in forty years?

    • tamimisledus

      Excellent analysis. I shall be bookmarking the link.
      Thank you.

  • OpenSideFlanker

    Simon Schama is just like all the other members of the metropolitan set, who don’t care to have their virtue signalling questioned , to do so will get you an abusive response. Of course they aren’t accustomed to being challenged , as they are usually helped by the likes of the BBC, who at worst will give them soft questions, or more likely assisted with their incoherent arguments with helpful prompts.

    • sandfly

      What a delight to see Schama lose that veneer of smug urbanity when his pompous self-regard was called into question. His sort will be no use when their chickens really come home to roost and the bullets start flying.

  • Barbouze

    So, does Simon Schama also support mass immigration for Israel? Didn’t think so.

    • smoke me a kipper

      Israel is a nation born of mass immigration. The previous inhabitants were forced into refugee camps and continue to have their homes stolen by the immigrants

      • Sue Smith

        Perhaps you also know something about Jewish “pricks”? They’re different, but you know this already.

      • WFC

        Indeed a lot of them are in refugee camps.

        At around the same time they opened, there were refugee camps in Europe filled with Germans forcibly expelled from (westward shifted) Poland and Czechoslovakia.

        Those refugee camps disappeared decades ago, but the Palestinian ones are still there (even though their original inhabitants must be getting on a bit now).

        Why do you suppose that might be?

    • Sue Smith

      Actually, Israel is a multi-cultural community already.

      • Harryagain

        Ah. The benefits of multiculturism.
        With all the same benefits as ours.
        Bombs, street murders, rapes and abductions.

    • Harryagain

      Only of Jews.

  • smoke me a kipper

    Liddle you are a prick

    • WTF

      There speaks the voice of experience !

      • smoke me a kipper

        True, after a lifetime of managing the consequences, I am well versed in recognising pricks, and Liddle is a first class example. Schama isn’t far behind.

        • Sue Smith

          Don’t tell us about your sex life, say something intelligent about the discussion. Oh, wait….

        • WTF

          There lies your problem, any one with half a brain doesn’t have to manage consequences as they tend to have a lot of foresight to ensure bad things don’t happen in the first place.

          Its only libturds that don’t think ahead like “what will be the consequences of mass immigration” and then leave a mess for others to clean up.

    • Daniel Maris

      I guess that’s what you (if no one else) would count as a well constructed argument.

  • 1kenthomas

    Those healthy young men? No doubt individuals who would face a good chance of conscription and death in the Syrian army.
    If you’re going to make the counter-argument, at least, don’t misstate realities.

    • alabenn

      They will be the ones who are murdering Alawites and other sects in Syria, some will be Alawites who used chemical weapons, if you think they will not continue to commit atrocities in Europe, you are deluded.
      All young men in that area are involved in the sickness that infects that area, these are the son of middle class families who would have been a little higher up the ladder giving the orders, they are fleeing deserved retribution for allowing their country to descend into hell, paradise if you are a Muslim youth with unrestrained freedom to rape and murder.

    • mdj

      If your enemy offers you a gun, what do you do?

  • David Booth.

    How is the offer to house a “Syrian” migrant going in the Balls and Sturgeon household?

    • alabenn

      Which one of the Balls houses, they appear to have a street of them, the amount of times they flipped ownerships.

    • Sue Smith

      What I’m REALLY interested in knowing is how the house ‘guests’ – from people who threw their homes open to immigrants – went after a few days. The old adage about house guests and dead fish obviously don’t apply here. Please, for our entertainment, if anybody does know about these ‘guests’ please let us know!!

    • WFC

      Unfortunately, their kind offers have been turned down on health and safety grounds (no … I’m not making that up).

      How surprising!

  • alabenn

    It is alright for Simon Schama to advocate for free unlimited Muslim immigration here, he lives over there in the US, he will not be subject to the fear, intimidation and then murder that will become the lot of Jews resident here, doubly so for Jewish gays like him.
    He is not the brightest button in the box regardless of his university education, he is dangerous like the useful idiots of old who infected the Labour Party, the party which he appears to slavishly support, hopefully if the Democrats do get their way and allow unfettered Muslim immigration into the US, he will be gone before they force gays to try flying from tall buildings.

    • Sue Smith

      Yes, there are legions of educated “useful idiots” out there. They get their PhD on the wing of a fly and think this qualifies them to make pronouncements on all aspects of life – from which they were largely removed whilst researching that said PhD. They are, of course, entitled to their opinions but we should accord them no more credibility than the bloke next to us sharing the bar at the pub (who’s probably get 200% more common sense)!

      • Harryagain

        You can always pick them out right away.
        They wave their hands about a lot.
        Anyone know why?
        Is it an American thing?

  • WTF

    The art of twisted moral equivalence & conflation used by libturds both here and elsewhere couldn’t be better demonstrated than the sad & divisive individual here.

    https://mattylog.wordpress.com/2015/09/24/092415-islamaphobia/

    He writes – “I’m going to give you all a little exercise. If Ahmed Mohamed’s clock
    was built by a kid named, lets say, Alex Miller, in the mid-1990s
    shortly after the Oklahoma City bombing and abortion clinic bombings,
    would he have been treated the same way as Mohamed? ”

    This of course was the story about a 14 year old kid in Texas who took the electronics out of a Radio Shack digital clock, put it into a briefcase and took it to school to “show what a clever little s*** he wasn’t”. When it started beeping, an English teacher naturally called the police because they were concerned it might be dangerous.

    What this race baiter blogger fails to rmention is that America had been subject to an Islamic terrorist bombing in 1993 at the WTC when a bomb in the car park blew up. His rhetoric here is designed to create divisions by suggesting that the name & religion of the subject had everything to do with the response by the authorities over an unknown ‘electronic device’ he stupidly took to school to give the impression he was an electronics genius. Retired electronics engineers would have recognized this circuit board immediately but a young English teacher, hardly.

    As the public are fully aware today, whether you go to an airport or a government building these days you will be under surveillance, checked, searched and ‘disposed’ of by security no matter what color, race of creed you are. Only liberal fascists find race issues where they don’t exist and they are the ones both here and elsewhere who fuel divisions, racism and bigotry and its time they were silenced.

    • diqi

      The boy had previously shown it to his D&T teacher who specifically told him not to take it in to other classes. He then took it in to another class and set the alarm to get a reaction. The English teacher and the school was simpy following the law and even if she had recognised it as a fake would still have had to follow the same action as making fake bombs are a crime in Texas.

      the older members of his family were also strangely prepared for the fuss that was generated, may have something to do with his father being a prominent musilm activist.

      There was no technical genius involved in the project at all, only mischief making.

    • nicnac

      There’s a video on youtube demonstrating the making of Ahmed Mohamed’s clock of genius, it lasts precisely 21 seconds. It involves breaking open a Radio Shack clock, removing the gubbins and sticking them in the familiar chunky pencil case. Undoubtedly Ahmed Mohamed is a brilliant kid, but what he’s brilliant at, like so many Muslims in the West, is lawfare. He played the USA like a angler plays a fish. They absolutely refused to see the fake bomb. Emporer’s New Clothes territory.

      • tamimisledus

        A key feature of islam is taking what belongs to someone else from, particularly non-muslims, and claiming it for themselves.

        It started with mohammad in the 7th century with the conquest of lands surrounding the core of Arabia. It has continued ever since, as islam has been obliged to expand its control over more and more of the earth’s territory to benefit muslims at the expense of non-muslims. [Of course they didn’t try very hard to find another solution to their problems. That is not the muslim way.]

        Over time, this theft extended into the realm of what might be called in modern terms, intellectual capital.

        That is, muslims have claimed, and continue to claim, credit for physical inventions which they took over from their predecessors, who were often in no position to dispute this fictitious muslim claim. They claim credit also for intellectual creations such a “0” (a hindu invention), algebra (2,500 years before islam) and cryptography to which they made no original contribution. The list is virtually endless, but is capped by the oft made assertion that the fictitious islamic “Golden Age” was in some way the basis of (and can claim some credit for) all human technological advances made mainly by Western society since then, to which it has contributed virtually nothing.

        “Many of the inventions the Muslims take credit for are the inventions of the peoples, countries and lands they conquered. The booty from their conquests wasn’t only tangible gold, women, and monies, but intellectual theft as well.”
        A quote from “http://edition.cnn.com/2015/07/22/world/muslim-inventions/index.html” which debunks a significant number of muslim claims.

        There any number of websites which similarly undermine these bogus claims for islamic science.

        Here is one that goes into detail of the many inventions for which islam claims credit – http://wikiislam.net/wiki/How_Islamic_Inventors_Did_Not_Change_The_World
        As a counterbalance here is a list of the many horrific inventions which islam did bring to the world – http://wikiislam.net/wiki/List_of_Genuine_Islamic_Inventions_Innovations_Records_and_Firsts#External_Links – to make it a worse place.

        Without going into detail, it is quite preposterous that any one could claim that genuine knowledge can be created within islam as it is based on the incoherent, irrational, unscientific, superstitious book of lies, the koran.

        Yes, this muslim is doing what muslims have been doing since the birth of islam. That is taking credit, when actually stealing from those around him.

        And guess what, as always it has been and so it is now, there are all too many Westerners, who might otherwise have been deemed rational (Sharma?), who have left reason at the door when considering islam, and fallen for this propaganda, hook line and sinker.

  • WTF

    As an antidote to all this racism from the usual suspects towards Jews, here are some famous quotes from Jewish comedians to lighten the tone.

    1. Jerry Lewis – “I don’t want to be remembered. I want the nice words when I can hear them.”

    2. Milton Berle – “I live to laugh, and I laugh to live.”

    3. Groucho Marx – “Outside of a dog, a book is a man’s best friend. Inside of a dog it’s too dark to read.”

    4. George Burns – “I look to the future because that’s where I’m going to spend the rest of my life.”

    5. Jackie Mason – “I have enough money to last me the rest of my life, unless I buy something.”

    6. Joan Rivers – “I’m also proud when it’s a Jew that wins the Pulitzer Prize or the Nobel Prize. And conversely, I’m always so glad when the serial killer isn’t Jewish.”

    7. Henny Youngman – “Take my wife—please.”

    8. Bea Arthur – “I can’t imagine working without an audience.”

    9. Buddy Hackett – “As a child my family’s menu consisted of two choices—take it or leave it.”

    10. Gilda Radner – “Life is about not knowing and making the best of it without knowing what’s going to happen next.”

    If anyone can find a single Muslim joke other than the 72 virgin one, please share it with us !

    • Callipygian

      What was that one from Woody Allen, the opening of Annie Hall, was it? Yes, I’ve just Googled it:
      “There’s an old joke – um… two elderly women are at a Catskill mountain resort, and one of ’em says, “Boy, the food at this place is really terrible.” The other one says, “Yeah, I know; and such small portions.” Well, that’s essentially how I feel about life – full of loneliness, and misery, and suffering, and unhappiness, and it’s all over much too quickly.”

      • Sue Smith

        He’s a brilliant wit, isn’t he?

        • I love his mid-era movies. So funny and so moving — and that includes Manhattan Murder Mystery, the last one I saw.

          • Sue Smith

            A person of taste, obviously!! Those films from the period you mention are some of the funniest I’ve ever seen. I’ll never forget the classic scene where Gene Wilder tells the doctor, “I’m in love with a sheep”!!

          • Daniel Maris

            Music, science, art, film, philosophy, economics…the influence of Jewish people in Europe has been strong and beneficial. It seems to count for nothing though now. Political correctness seems to have paralysed our thought processes, so that we are supposed to actually welcome the introduction of millions of followers of totalitarian Sharia into Europe.

          • WTF

            Yep, our leaders want to dump decades or even centuries of Jewish contribution to our culture and exchange it for the barbarities of Islam.

          • Sue Smith

            What you’re both saying (Maris & WTF) actually makes me seriously despair and grieve. I want to return to Vienna – where I’ve spent a lot of time in the past years – but I cannot bring myself to do so seeing so many aliens cramming the public transport, yelling in different languages on their phones, having their kids shrieking uncontrollably and none of them understanding the niceties of Viennese customs – like giving up your seat for the elderly. Of course, some Viennese ignore this too but there are many who do not. The new arrivals don’t even know, or want to know, about social customs because the Austrians have told them THEY DON’T HAVE TO!! This is the PERMISSIVE CULTURE on steroids. And it’s all part of the problem of the western world; decadence, permissiveness and a breakdown in respect, authority and civility.

            I don’t think I’m over-stating the case, but I can never bring myself to visit Europe or Scandinavia ever again. How sad is that?

          • bugshead

            My sentiments entirely and I used to live and work in Vienna but it has been completely overrun by the Eastern Europeans. Innsbruck is in better shape now though more provincial obviously. I am looking now at Merano or Bolzano in Südtirol and also Lugano, as possibilities.

          • Sue Smith

            I’m heart-sick just reading the names of those wonderful places you’ve mentioned. How I love Austria! And the boys dancing in the lederhausen in Innsbruck, ringing those large cowbells – how long will that tradition last? The Austrians are concerned that in 20 years time they will not have a winter Olympic games team for Alpine sports.

            Be careful what you wish for!!

          • WTF

            In 1683, Vienna was besieged by the Muslim Ottoman empire for two months and it took the combined forces of German speaking nations and Polish-Lithuanian forces to repel the Islamic hordes, this time around Merkel has opened the doors to let them walk in without a whimper of protest.

          • Richard

            It is only if you have lived in other cultures that you can see how self-hating and self-destructive Europe (and white people in general, actually) are.

          • Harryagain

            There’s very little difference in their belief systems.
            Just the Jews tend not to plant bombs.

          • Suffolk boy

            King David Hotel………..

          • Richard

            You really believe that? Even if you don’t see Jews crucifying, beheading, stoning, throwing acid, engaging in honour-killings, proselytising, attacking gays, forcing women to dress like Ninjas, stopping education for women, ad infinitum, they are still the same?

          • Harryagain

            All of the above are advocated in both parties cult books.
            Some Jews take it literally too.
            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orthodox_Judaism#Haredi_Judaism

          • E.I.Cronin

            Broadway Danny Rose! (the helium shootout scene is side-splitting). And the Gena Rowlands one…. Another Woman?

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F828xcRMDn8

    • Sue Smith

      No, I’m afraid we’re the ones making the jokes about Muslims and being punished for it!

      • WTF

        Mel Brooks wasn’t on that list but he’s probably my favorite director/comedian on film as movies like Blazing Saddles were seriously non politically correct and he always made fun of his own culture by stereo typing Jewish people in the most irreverent manner. In Blazing Saddles, no culture was excused of a bit of leg pulling & stereo typing including Chinese rail workers and black slaves but he had the capacity to ridicule racism in a comic manner way that pointed out injustices by comedy rather than todays libturds trying to ram it down your throat.

        Lines like “where’s the white women at” or the KKK scene were hilarious but I’m sure it goes over the heads of todays feeble minded liberals. Gene Wilder also played great roles in this and other movies of Mel Brooks like Young Frankenstein and was similarly gifted in mocking cultural traits by comedy. Who could believe that a black blind man and a white deaf man would make for a hilarious movie in See no evil, Hear no evil. Once again, Wilder was a Jew, Buddist and Atheist according to his bio and Jews make up a far larger percentage by race for comedy just as for Nobel prizes.

        “The Peoples Front For Judea” comically shot themselves in the foot asking about “what had the Romans ever done for them” but perhaps they should have asked “What have the Muslims done for them”. Sadly we know the answer to that, it wouldn’t have been a joke at all.

        • Joseph Hooker

          Mel Brooks, just what was that man on? The funniest comedian of all time, you forgot to mention his masterpiece “The Producers” . He later said he wanted to be the first Jew to make a buck out of Hitler, that has to be my favorite black comedy of all time. “Mongo often ponder on this game of life” Blazing Saddles 1974.

          • UKSteve

            “Don’t be dumb, be a smarty,
            Come and join the…..” ….you know the rest.

            The man’s a genius.

          • WTF

            You’re right, only a Jewish comedian could ridicule what Hitler stood for.

        • UKSteve

          “Badges? We don’t need no stinking BADGES!”

          Absolute masterpiece.

    • Bonkim

      Muslims are the joke!

    • Brian

      Very nice post, indeed!

    • tamimisledus

      I have read lots of nasty things about muslims. Virgins on earth deserve our respect whatever they decide to do about their virginity, or when they decide to do it. The verdict on the number “72” seems to be still out.
      But I have never heard a single funny muslim joke. Perhaps you could enlighten me (and maybe others!) without, of course, unnecessarily risking your life?

      • WTF

        The point is that Muslims don’t seem to have a sense of humour about anything whether its about other cultures or their own !

    • mdj

      Well, there’s the one about the camel squeezing his master out of the tent, but many of us don’t find it too funny.

  • Callipygian

    I am acquainted with Westchester reasonably well: my husband grew up there (b. Manhattan, but his parents thought that Millwood in said county was a better place to raise a child). This is relevant only because I know how full of it Schama is, especially in sneering at ‘suburban’. Mind you, he doesn’t see it that way: he probably sees where he lives as some sort of boutique away-from-the-Big-Apple that nonetheless manages to be remarkably accessible to — the Big Apple. Funny, that.

  • Sue Smith

    Nobody, nobody at all, in the bien pensant spares one single thought for the Jews and the exponential rise of anti-semitism which is already underway in much of Europe. When you invite those who’s political/religious philosophy (for want of a better word) embraces extermination of the Jewish state you condemn those Jews living in Europe to the kinds of experiences they endured during and prior to WW2. Nobody cares a damn about these people – once again.

    That kind of deplorable neglect against one’s own citizens – deliberately exposing them to violence and danger – isn’t mentioned by the virtue signallers. They’ll wave it all away – which is the manner in which Sharma apparently tried to show his displeasure, ironically enough.

    All from the comfortable distance of either ivory towers or remote, bucolic sanctuaries, of course.

    • WFC

      They don’t mention it because they don’t know it. And they don’t know it because anybody who talks about it is somebody who mustn’t be listened to. And if they accidentally listen to, or read, the wrong sort of person, whatever they have read or heard must be expunged from memory.

      Safe spaces weren’t invented by the current crop of “students”.

      • Sue Smith

        As I said, it’s RACISM by any other name. Also cultural genocide – removing or ridding the population of people who come from a certain ethic or culture group by introducing things you know will destroy it.

        The bien pensant should end up in the same way as Mussolini!!

    • tamimisledus

      I would just like to add my firm support for your analysis.
      Well said.

  • Gary Wintle

    Will David Starkey and Simon Schama star in the remake of History Today.

    “See that William Gladstone….that’s your girlfiend, that is, that’s your sexiest fantasy.”

  • Daniel Maris

    La Beard had a piece on Newsnight about the Roman Empire (thinly disguised book promo/pro-migration propaganda). Her little homily – about how the Roman Empire’s attitude to citizenship was a kind of template for how we should view such matters – came to a rather abrupt close with her announcing we shouldn’t look to the Roman Empire for lessons. Wonder why? Perhaps she realised that the fall of the Roman Empire didn’t exactly back up her argument.

    • Snowmuncher

      I thought the Romans threw Christians to the Lions.

    • mdj

      The empire was a Ponzi scheme also, creating ever longer and less defensible borders, while bringing increasing numbers of peoples who could not be assimilated to the parent culture at a manageable speed. She was absolutely right, but perhaps not in the way she intended.

  • Innit Bruv

    I see the baying mob is out in force tonight (usually the case after
    one of Mister Piggy’s articles).

  • Timmy2much

    I think the question that really needs to be asked is when will the vast majority, who want an end to mass immigration in to this country, going to stand up and face the left wingers down?

    There is a civil war brewing and the left are importing more and more, of what they suspect will be, their foot soldiers.
    It is long past time for action to be taken by the majority against minority groups which have been wielding far far too much power compared to their overall level of support.

    • Bonkim

      They are not really left-wingers but mostly well to do folk that have a good life and assume they need to be seen as do-gooders and leaders of their society.

    • John

      I trust that you include the Conservative Party in this decades’ old conspiracy?

  • Bonkim

    Have to agree with you there Rod – 100% and I am not a native born Briton in the tribal sense.

    • Who is? My ancestors are from Suffolk, then more recently from Chingford and Walthamstow, with a grandma from Norwich, a great-grandma that was German (Emma: that’s all I know about her) and a great-great-aunt that was Italian and was known as ‘bloodnut’ for her red hair. The rest of us are just bonkers.

      • Snowmuncher

        Well, at least half of your heritage helped to build this country up from nothing over several hundred years and that’s better than loyalty to one’s country shown by young men running away from a civil war and cherry picking the country that pays out the best benefits, and leaving those remaining in their country to sort out the mess for you.

  • With reference to Woody Allen (see exchanges below), here is a young Allen with a youngish William F. Buckley, Jr., the founder of the great National Review magazine and one of the great defenders of American freedom (I mean Buckley rather than Allen): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GNErWi_lTig

  • Do men ever stop moaning?

    Ooh cat fight!

  • Harryagain

    Amazing to me is how these selfish libturds bang on about how we need migrant doctors and nurses for the NHS.
    They never thing they are needed even more back home.
    Supposing they are even competent.
    And neglecting the fact it would be mostly other immigrants they’d be looking after.

    • mdj

      My leftier friends don’t like it when I say the NHS is the British Empire continued by other means.
      As for pointing out that importing immigrants to pay for current pensions is a doomed Ponzi scheme which would give us a 100 million population in forty years, peoples’ brains just don;t process it.

      • Mungus Blanchart

        The demographic pyramid scheme also only works if the immigrants get jobs and become net contributors tax wise. Which is highly unlikely considering the appalling level of education of the Middle East and Africa, their views on women working and the general lack of work ethic in the Arab world.

        • Harryagain

          I bet few of the 20,000 Camoron’s bent on bringing here has any useful skills.
          It’ll be the old, the sick, the poor, the jobless, the uneducated, the abandoned.
          Guaranteed parasites for the rest of their lives.
          If you feel ill get an appointment now, there won’t be any in a year.
          Same for housing and schools.
          And this from the man that was going to cut immigration!

          Meanwhile The Krauts will pick out the useful migrants and shunt the rest off elsewhere in the EUSSR. Including here if they can get away with it.

      • Harryagain

        You forgot the bit about supposing they do get employment, they send a lot of the money back home. You walk the streets in immigrant areas, there’s always Western Union branches.
        That is until they can get to bring their families over here.

  • OpenSideFlanker

    On a different tack, how is it that the Women’s Equality Party, that has no MP’s , no MEP’s , no Councillors, and just a rag bag of activists , is getting all this BBC air time, they are on Mar, and going to be on Question Time, when the likes of UKIP had to be almost winning elections before the BBC would allow them onto programs.

    • Steve Moxon

      Inasmuch as the vacuous femascists get any quarter-wits to vote for ’em, it will all be at the expense of Liebore, and will vie with the watermelon Greens in the electoral hilarity stakes.
      That’s not exactly a problem.
      The Boob here functions as a ‘useful idiot’ to the opposite effect of how that phenomenon usually works.

    • ThePretender

      Women’s Equality is the prevailing theme of present OpenSideFlanker. Given the social approval of such sentiments – advertising support is a legitimate strategy to facilitate increased appraisal.

      • OpenSideFlanker

        Hold on , I’ll just go and get my dictionary. Meantime Marr is giving Nicky Morgan some leading questions on gender equality, like aren’t there more men named John on the Boards than women? it seems to have slipped his mind that there are other areas where women are disproportionately represented, like Law, where its 62% 38% split.

        • ThePretender

          Offensively nonchalant – bravo. To the latter section of your remark, there is merit.

        • logdon

          Or bricklaying?

          • Blindsideflanker

            They don’t seem to be agitating about having more representation of women as sewage workers either, for some reason they don’t see the need to have equality where moving fat bergs in sewers are concerned.

          • logdon

            I was going to say, it blows the whole thing out of the water and then the ‘fat berg’ image appeared.

            It is true though.

            The age of hypocrisy is well and truly upon us.

            When Obama reduced the required fitness levels in the US Army to accomodate womens front line capability we finally know that in our age of ultimate PC, ideology trumps common sense.

          • Blindsideflanker

            Not just hypocrisy, by the VERY selective thinking. They conveniently forget that men die earlier than women, get their state pensions later, get less spent on men’s health than women, that there is an endemic of suicide with men, that women are over represented in medicine ( a science) but only worry about representation in other sciences, where men might be in a small majority, that more women go to university than men, and so on. All we get are the Feminazis coming up with some grievance or other, but they don’t have their victim hood punctured because the media is there supporting is, as well as the Westminster politicians.

          • mdj

            Wasn’t it found that a high percentage of women recruits could not throw a grenade beyond the range of its burst?

          • logdon

            I hadn’t heard that one.

          • Harryagain

            Yep it’s true.
            Baseball is sponsored in the USA to improve throwing skills. 🙂

    • tamimisledus

      That is a rag bag of activists (doing better economically than the huge majority of men in this country, never mind the world) who themselves have never made a direct contribution economically to the country.

      And no, I don’t count their perverted misrepresentation of society as a contribution to the country’s well-being, either.
      With these women, it is another of example of the Khrushchev doctrine. “What is mine is mine, and what is yours is negotiable”

  • ThePretender

    Simon undermines legitimate sentiments for contending the extensive migration of populations to the UK. Indeed, while an exponent of inclusive opportunities, the State infrastructure is inadequate and unable to absorb, at the expense of exhausting finite resources, increasing membership. Animosity for such views however.

  • RightReader

    We’ve closed the door on the Enlightenment and a new romanticism has taken its place. In our new feminized world, feeling becomes reason.

    ‘I feel; therefore I am’

    • logdon

      I’d add to that.

      I feel superior, therefore I am.

      Their completion is only fulfilled by a good bout of virtue signalling.

      It’s all a pose and in my lifetime I’ve known many of these hollow poseurs. There’s a strata of society riddled with them.

      • Harryagain

        Ah. You mean like the ones promising to take a refugee into their home?

        • logdon

          Or the one I know who bangs on about his little jaunt, teaching graphic design to Palestinians.

          His glee as he told me made me almost pity the poor misguided fool.

      • Snowmuncher

        There’s a very active one on the comments on this very article.

        When he demands a solution to the crisis and I tell him more money, more camps, better camps in Turkey etc. his response, “No, what would you do NOW?”

        I try to explain that short of getting Superman to use his laser eyes to build a new city in Turkey this morning, that’s better and cheaper than Merka announcing on worldwide media that “all of you are welcome, there are no-limits”, and starting to build camps in Germany and throwing German citizens out of their social housing (as has been widely reported in the media).

        Plus in Turkey they can easily return to Syria when conditions improve possibly as soon as in 2 – 3 years, if longer, that’s the way the cookie crumbles.

        Meanwhile 6.3 million children under 5 die in Africa every year, 2/3 from preventable causes like starvation (W.H.O. 2013)

        Given that, spending some time in a decent tent for some time with the UNHCR managing the camps with a budget of $6 Billion, is relatively OK, especially in that part of the world. In Bodrum in Turkey for example high / low temps in December are 16 C and 9C.

        Meanwhile thousands of pensioners in the UK die every year from hypothermia because they cannot afford to heat their homes.

    • Velo

      Yes, it’s an example of false compassion.

    • Snowmuncher

      This is slightly sexist but I can’t help feeling if this new decision making by emotional feeling and need to virtue signal is connected with Angela Merkel being in that position and the voices of women being heard much more loudly these days.

      When it comes to national security issues I am starting to feel this could be the death of us. This idea that men and women can both do everything, and we should do things even if we are not designed and programmed to do has become a fundamentalist movement.

      Now of course, Mrs, later Lady Thatcher, would have been quite different, but she was an exception. And Simon Schama I think it’s fair to count him as an honourable woman.

  • mikewaller

    Why does Liddle not face up to the fact that his position is as vacuous as that of the Careanistas? Whist he is very strong on kicking them, what he does he propose we should actually do? Detailed answers by next week please!

    P.S. “Do nothing” will be read as letting Syrian refugees drown, accumulate in ever increasing numbers in Southern Europe or massively under-resourced refugee camps closer to Syria or leaving them to be smashed to pieces by those murderous scumbags, Putin and Assad.

    • Snowmuncher

      Mr Schama, sorry, I mean Mr Waller,

      “accumulate in ever increasing numbers in …massively under-resourced refugee camps closer to Syria.”

      You’re probably too uninformed to realize that vast majority of the refugees in Jordan, Turkey and the Lebanon are not in refugee camps? This is a myth perpetuated by the UK media, especially the likes of Channel 4 and BBC, usually in news reports of refugee camps designed to provoke an emotional response from the viewing public, and disseminated by useful idiots.

      UNHCR report on Syrian refugees in Jordan:
      “It is increasingly recognised that the majority of the world’s refugees reside not in camps, but dispersed amongst the community in the countries where they have sought asylum. This is the case for Syrian refugees in Jordan, of which 84% live outside official refugee camps in urban and rural areas across the country.”

      UNHCR report on Turkey Feb 2015:
      “Although most of the 1.5 million Syrian refugees in Turkey live in urban areas, …”

      It’s also worth getting any uncomfortable living conditions into perspective. According to the WHO, 6.3 million children under 5 died in Africa in 2013, 2/3 from preventable causes, like starvation, and it continues unabated.

      Money spent on making refugees more comfortable is not spent on other aid projects. Where would you prioritize it?

      The UNHCR with its budget of $ 6 Billion and growing, mostly from the US, EU and Japan, gives financial assistance to many of those refugees living outside refugee camps, and many do have jobs.

      • mikewaller

        “You’re probably too uninformed to realize that” although initially treated with considerable kindness, those Syrians now living amongst the populations of neighbouring countries are increasingly coming to feel that they have outstayed their welcome. Something that is hardly surprising. Under such circumstances it seems no more than a cheap cope-out to say, as you seem to be saying, “so that’s alright then”. All I think that you are doing is adding yet more obfuscation to that already served up by Liddle. It is easy enough to take a few vacuous pops at the Careanistas. The waves of immigrants heading towards Europe constitute a major problem. What, precisely, would either you or Liddle do about it?

        • Snowmuncher

          Funnily enough, since I am the one who has been reading the UNHCR reports, yes I am aware of that.

          The solution is breathtakingly simple. More money, new camps, better camps.

          Where from? Here a few suggestions:

          – We spend a ridiculous £12 billion a year on foreign aid which is increasing every year because a new law forces us to pay an arbitrary and ridiculous percentage of GNI, which is almost 4 X the rate the USA pays, even though it is a far richer country on every measure. Roughly half of the £12 billion for 2014/15 was given to multilateral agencies over which the UK has no control, because the amount was so huge that DFid was not able to shovel it out in time despite employing 2500 staff in an office near Trafalgar Square, one of the most expensive office zones in the world. This year that half should go to the UNHCR (as emergency aid) and it will almost treble their budget in one fell swoop.

          – Get other EU countries who have barely contributed to Syria to pay up – France, Italy, etc.

          – Saudi Arabia and Qatar, much richer per capita than any EU country, and neither of whom have taken a single Syrian refugee despite Saudi being 60 miles from Syria, 16 times the size of this country, Sunni Muslim like 72% of Syrians, same language and similar culture….should be made to cough up double what they have already contributed, several billions of dollars to UNHCR.

          Bingo, problem solved, we may even be able to build the refugees pools to cool down in Summer, although they will probably still complain, and r_pe aid workers and fellow refugees when opportunity arises.

          • Bogbrush

            Far too sensible.

          • Snowmuncher

            Apparently, according to mikewaller, he wants to know what I would do right now. This very morning presumably.

            The only answer that would satisfy him it seems would be to ask the Transformers to come to help to build new cities this week, and keep our fingers crossed that the Decepticons aren’t going attack in the meantime.

            I’m not sure how old mike is.

          • mikewaller

            What the 0.7% of GDP buys us is the moral high ground. You cannot have it two ways: either we use that to lecture others or we follow them down into the depths of moral irresponsibility. By all means put unproductive civil servants to the sword but I wonder just how much our aid-giving is tied up with the interests of British exporters. And having said that, regarding the present situation, your ideas are just so much pie in the sky. We have seen the great phalanxes of people marching westwards across Turkey and Eastern Europe NOW. I have just heard a news item to the effect that (I think) over 100,000 have turned up in Greece THIS MONTH! Forget your jam tomorrow, what the Hell do we do about that? Which is exactly the point I raise in the first place re: Liddle.

          • Snowmuncher

            Actually it’s 0.7% of GNI, not GDP, but nevertheless, I and many others have no problem with emergency aid for crises and emergencies, especially in the current circumstances.

            When Dfid is unable to allocate half the billions itself and then in the last few weeks it is desperately shovelling it out to multilateral agencies because of a ridiculous percentage, when there is IS NO EMERGENCY, and we have thosuands of pensioners dying from cold and we can’t afford certain cancer drugs for the dying and our former members of the armed forces who lost limbs and their sight and receive pathetic sums for said injuries, and others are killing themselves because we can’t afford to help when they they return to civilian life, then yes,

            “but I wonder just how much our aid-giving is tied up with the interests of British exporters.”

            Why don’t you do some reading and then we can contibue the discussion after that. I suggest the following:

            Aiding & abetting: Foreign Aid Failures and the 0.7% deception by Jonathan Foreman (start with this one)

            How I FAILED to save the World; Or 40 Years of Foreign Aid by Gordon Bridger, ex Difid – Head of the Economic Planning staff

            Dead Aid: Why aid is not working and how there is another way for Africa – Dambisa Moyo

            Aid and Other Dirty Business: “How Good Intentions Have Failed the World’s Poor – Giles Bolton

            Corruption and Development Aid: Confronting the Challenges – Georg Cremer

          • mikewaller

            Answer my bloody question! What would you do NOW!

          • Snowmuncher

            I told you what I would do now,

            “The solution is breathtakingly simple. More money, new camps, better camps.”

          • Snowmuncher

            Putting up refugee tents and improving the existing ones in Turkey etc is the most short term solution.

            You have obviously never done anything like project management have you?

            Because you seem so uninformed that you think building camps in Greece, Germany, and other countries in the EU, is a better, cheaper quicker alternative. It is none of those.

            The people leaving for the EU have left accommodation and camps in Turkey, Jordan, Lebanon, to what extent they are being filled from Syria we don not know – probably not much because it took 4 years to fill Turkey with 2 million refugees.

            What is a major contributory factor of the exodus is telling these people, there is not limit, come on over. Merka is a narcissistic moron, and help by useful idiots like Simon Schama.

            Now I have answered your demands 3 times. Now tell me what YOU would do?

          • mikewaller

            Try that on most of the rest of the list! Like the vacuous Liddle, they are strong on what should not be done, but very reticent on what should be. None the less, you are to be congratulated on finally siding with the angels.

          • Snowmuncher

            “Like the vacuous Liddle”

            You sound like a broken record.

            You are clearly a person who looks in someone in the eyes and denies having a nose.

            Everyone on this forum thinks very little of you. Suggest you try SocialistWorker.com There are many like minded people on there who you could bond with.

            P.S. They too tend to be very angry and have no manners – probably cos of how they woz brung up.

          • mikewaller

            What a brilliantly incisive observation! Actually I feel it my Christian duty to move amongst sad sacks like you in the almost certainly vain hope that I can affect some kind of improvement to your massive conceptual inadequacies. Sadly, I am sure I would find similarly self-serving tosh on the site you recommend. Most inadequates bunch together.

          • Snowmuncher

            Please don’t spit at me Mike!

          • Snowmuncher

            Answer my bloody question! What would you do NOW!

            And learn some bloody manners. Who and what brought you up.

          • Snowmuncher

            Answer my bloody question! What would you do NOW!

            And learn some bloody manners. Who and what brought you up.

          • Wessex Man

            I’ll answer your insane question, we should do NOTHING, the number of people coming to this country last year was 660,000. More than any other country in Europe! Nett figures were 330,000 more in that period, unless you can magic up all the houses, hospitals, doctors, nurses, teachers,schools and social workers as used by the people of Bath and Gloucester combined you can’t do anything about it either!

            It’s no good bleeding hearts like you demanding to know what others aregoing to do about it when you haven’t a clue!

            To give Cameron his due it wasn’t him who said we’ll take 800,000 then panicked when they came.

          • mikewaller

            At least Snowmuncher has a decent side; I am with him and the expanded refugee camps. Thank God that you were not around in the early 1940s to provide similarly crass observations that could readily have been turned against us when we were so desperate for American support in our hour of crisis.

          • Snowmuncher

            mikewaller charmingly wrote “Answer my bloody question! What would you do NOW!”

            I posted this elsewhere and wanted you to see it:

            “There’s a very active one on the comments on this very article.

            When he demands a solution to the crisis and I tell him more money, more camps, better camps in Turkey etc. his response, “No, what would you do NOW?”

            I try to explain that short of getting Superman to use his laser eyes to build a new city in Turkey this morning, that’s better and cheaper than Merka announcing on worldwide media that “all of you are welcome, there are no-limits”, and starting to build camps in Germany and throwing German citizens out of their social housing (as has been widely reported in the media).

            It’s worth noting that according to UNHCR reports most refugees in Jordan, Turkey and Lebanon do not live in camps but rented accommodation (for which the UNHCR can also give financial assistance) . In Jordan for example a recent UNHCR reported 84% are not in camps. The camp narrative is a gross exaggeration created by the media like BBC and Channel 4.

            Plus in Turkey they can easily return to Syria when conditions improve possibly as soon as in 2 – 3 years, if longer, that’s the way the cookie crumbles.

            Meanwhile 6.3 million children under 5 die in Africa every year, 2/3 from preventable causes like starvation (W.H.O. 2013)

            Given that, spending some time in a decent tent for some time with the UNHCR managing the camps with a budget of $6 Billion, is relatively OK, especially in that part of the world. In Bodrum in Turkey for example high / low temps in December are 16 C and 9C.

            Meanwhile thousands of pensioners in the UK die every year from hypothermia because they cannot afford to heat their homes.”

        • Snowmuncher

          Did you see the video when Schama argued that one can tell Syrians because they speak Arabic, and the hard left barely educated jeering rent-a-mob cheered wildly not even understanding what was going on.

          A little later it had to be explained that it’s not just the Syrians that speak Arabic.

          This man is a Professor?!? How deathly embarrassing for him.

        • WTF

          I thought Liddle was against allowing migrants into the UK as most are. If the door wasn’t opened by Merkel, Juncker or Schama they wouldn’t be heading for Europe, and the solution is to shut the door and they’ll get the message.

        • Snowmuncher

          “What, precisely, would either you or Liddle do about it?”

          I’ve answered you in the comment below Now what do you say to that?

        • Wessex Man

          From reports coming out of Germany they’ve a already outstayed their welcome there as well, what I think finally did it for the German medical profession was the stabbing of a leading Consultant who couldn’t save a baby’s life, he’s still in intensive care and the refusal of treatment by nurses.

          • mikewaller

            It may amaze you to know that when Europeans turned up in very large numbers in places like America and Australia some of them behaved a tad badly to the locals. Even worse, rather than just being isolated grief-stricken parents, they,en masse, set about stealing everything in sight. This has something to do with the human condition.The real question remains: what solutions to this massive problem would be both practical and successful?

        • Bogbrush

          What would you do? How many (please be specific) can come to Britain, and how would this be achieved.
          Please, you are the one critical of current actions so it’s incumbent on you to present your plan.
          How many, where, costs; that sort of thing.

        • Rufus Chucklebutty

          They need to organise a fight back to regain their own home lands then, rather than running away.

    • Harryagain

      They cease being refugees the moment they leave Turkey.
      They are just a bunch of chancers. Including taking a chance with their families life on a rubber boat.
      There’s consequences for being stupid

      Very handy at spending other people’s money aren’t you?
      You must be a socialist.

      • mikewaller

        So were you a Syrian in the present situation – should that country have the further misfortune to count you amongst its citizens – you would follow the example of the Palestinians in similar circumstances of just sitting out half a century in refugee camps in the hope that somehow wrongs done to you get righted?

        My inclination would be to do everything possible to get somewhere where life was worth living. Of course, one downside of that with regard the UK would be having to rub shoulders with folks of little brain such as your good self.

        Instead of feeding yourself nonsense fantasies, why not give this very serious problem some real consideration in the vague hope that you might come up with something sensible. In what is generally a pretty tough world, places like Northern Europe, America, Canada, Australia and New Zealand are very attractive places to get to. Hence we are faced with a tidal wave of would-be entrants. Simply hurling abuse at such people does not cut the mustard; but no doubt it does makes diddums feel be better.

        • Penny

          “My inclination would be to do everything possible to get somewhere where life was worth living”

          But how far away from your country of birth would you want to go, Mike? My guess – from some personal experience – would be that most Syrians do not want to leave the immediate region but instead wait in the hope that when the war is over they can return home.

          But in any case, those Syrians making their way to Europe account for a small percentage of the whole. There are various nationalities within or on Europe’s border, many with no valid claim to asylum.

          • Snowmuncher

            “many with no valid claim to asylum”

            UK Supreme court ruled (in 2010) that 2 gay men from Cameroon & Iran could remain in the UK after initially being rejected on the grounds that they could conceal their sexuality in their own countries by acting discreetly. This decision opened up the UK to potentially approx 135 million legitimate LGBT asylum seekers who live in countries where homosexuals are persecuted. The worldwide population of such countries is 2.7 Billion, and I’ve assume 5% are LGBT.

          • scampy

            What leave islamic paradise for welfare benefits heaven?
            How could the uncivilized vermin refuse?

        • Harryagain

          They should stay and fight for their own country.
          Not travel to another place and expect to be fed and watered and a roof put over their heads.
          Bringing with them a sh itty culture that is responsible for the state of that country.
          Refusing to integrate.
          Organising deception, revolt and subversion when they get here.
          Their gratitude doesn’t last long.
          We have muslim rapists, murderers and abductors running amok in our streets already.
          No reason to believe this lot will be any different.
          They all belong to the same evil cult.
          The cult book is there to read. Why not read it?

          http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/quran/023-violence.htm

        • WTF

          Perhaps if the Palestinians were more interested in making a peace rather than attacking Israel at every opportunity they’d have a much better quality of life and standard of living. You reap what you sow !

        • Rufus Chucklebutty

          In a civil war, the Syrian people have to fight to build a better future, just as in every civil war, if you don’t like that then don’t start one.

          • mikewaller

            It is helpful if you think before hitting keyboard. The vast majority of folks are people to whom civil wars happen; those who initiate them, a small minority. Of course, that is rather a complicated thought for you so I suppose you will stick to stories which better fit your mind: simple ones..

        • Snipkokken Balsov

          80% of the “Syrian refugees” are young fit men of fighting age. Of the 80% an awfully high proportion look African or Indian sub-continental.

          You will of course have already offered accommodation to the homeless British and have done all you possibly could to enable the residents of the most notorious sink estates in the UK (…a pretty tough world) to reside as close to your own property as possible?

          • mikewaller

            As I have indicated I favour spending a lot more in areas immediately adjacent to Syria. Among other things, that would make it much harder for others to jump on the Syrian refugee bandwagon. What amazes me is the heat folks like you generate on this aspect of the problem whilst remaining silent on what that murderous scumbag, Putin, is currently up to. Perhaps he is just your kind of hero.

          • Snipkokken Balsov

            Then why are folks like you so silent on the non help offered by the oil and gas rich Middle Eastern states who have taken in in, ooh…. about zero Syrian refugees, nor strangely enough any of the fighting aged young, fit, well fed young men from many other Muslim failed states.
            Your concern with Mr. Putin probably originates in the Russian Parliaments decision to control and curtail western funded NGO’s, tasked with introducing the cancer of identity politics into Russia.

          • mikewaller

            I despise rich Middle Eastern autocracies as much as I despise the corrupt Putin plutocracy. My particular concern about your Mr Putin is that he is very much a man of the mid twentieth century but with the weaponry of the present age. In both the Ukraine and in Syria his “might is right” approach takes me even further back to the realpolitik of Bismark – not a very nice man.

        • mohdanga

          Maybe they could point themselves the other way and head to Muslim countries full of petro dollars, like Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Qatar, UAE, etc, all places that are very attractive for Muslims.

          • Jeffrey Vernon

            We do like to foist muslim identity onto these people, don’t we. The point is that they are Syrians, and that Syria has changed out of all recognition in the last 5 years.

          • mohdanga

            But they are Muslims! Aren’t Muslims always on about how “we are Muslims first and foremost”?? They would be much more at home in a Muslim country.

          • Jeffrey Vernon

            Muslim can mean almost anything; I know muslims who scoff the food at Eid and avoid pork, but otherwise are indistinguishable from me (very lapsed Jew). At the other end of the spectrum, you have the 5-a-day types who’ve memorised the koran. The Saudi ambassador to Germany recently said on the radio that only 16% of German migrants from muslim countries were in any way observant. There must of course be first-and-foremost muslims, but it would be astonishing if a billion people all spoke in one voice about any issue at all. The Syrians in Europe have mostly spent time in Jordan, and then in Turkey. Plainly, living in a muslim country turned out NOT to be the solution to their problems. If Islam was all that mattered, they could go and live in IS territory.

          • Snowmuncher

            The point is 72% of Syrians are Sunni Muslim, like the Saudis and other oil rich Gulf States.

            The point is Saudi is 60 miles away from Syria, and there are two cities close to Syria near the Jordan border.

            The point is that Saudi is richer per capita than Germany or the UK

            The point is that Saudi is larger than Germany, UK, Italy, Ireland and France combined.

            The point is Saudi Arabia is funding and arming the anti Assad groups, and far more involved than any country in the EU.

          • Jeffrey Vernon

            What can fleeing Syrians do about any of that?

          • Snowmuncher

            Stay in safe in Turkey until our weak politicians grow some.

          • Snowmuncher

            They could also pretend to do a holy visit to Mecca and claim squatters rights once there.

    • WTF

      Rod Liddle is just stating the obvious that this migrant situation is a dangerous scam and its being supported by libturds like Schama. Just today we see the sympathy card being played yet again as two kids die due to their parents criminal lack of responsibility but why should we pick up the tab of others moral blackmail.

      http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3288774/The-price-refugee-Shocking-pictures-bodies-children-aged-seven-two-washed-island-Lesbos-boat-smashes-rocks.html#comments

      Perhaps if all of those claiming faux sympathy at others costs should start up a ‘sponsor a migrant’ scheme. The government has stated last week that migrants costs the country 25k a person per year so to be fair, if we project 10 years of support to cover kids and unemployment, that’s 1 million pounds per family of four. How about Schama and all of your ilk, 1 million deposit for each a family before a family is admitted !

      • mikewaller

        IMHO, the Daily Mail is to truth what the late, appalling, Cyril Smith was to hand-gliding. But you still dodge the question. What do you propose should be done about the problem given the determination of so many people to get into Europe?

        • sandfly

          As Rod Liddle says, ‘ Deny access and deport those arriving illegally by sea’. It worked in Australia where the trade and traffic has been killed stone dead. The main problem will be getting a consensus between nations and neutralising the blinkered, conspicuously compassionate.

          • mikewaller

            So let us have a few practical suggestions. Do we build a physical wall along the length and breath of the EU’s borders? Do we sink boats carrying would-be immigrants or just keep staving them off the beaches? Where do we actually send those already here? And I think “The main problem will be getting consensus between the nations…” to be one of the profoundest understatements in the history of this list!

          • KittyR

            While you can never build impenetrable boundaries, your facetious
            suggestion that building a physical wall along the length and breadth of the
            EU’s borders would be ludicrous is woefully naive. Europe’s very recent history shows that implementing tight border controls is highly effective – the Soviets Iron Curtain worked particularly well.

            We’re now so indoctrinated in the West by a liberal mind-set wringing its hands at any type of curtailment to personal freedom, an elite (living in wealthy suburbs of NY like Simon Schama) who fail to account for those who would live amidst the reality of their Utopian meddling, that any serious suggestion is shot down by short-circuit ethics and the now orthodox and deeply patronizing wail of ‘but these are human beings’.

            Briefly, my suggestion would be that we aim efforts at the
            most vulnerable seeking asylum and demotivate illegal migrants and people
            smugglers. So, boats are turned back to port, people arriving illegally are sent to detention centres and processed quickly, and serious effort made to help only the most vulnerable asylum seekers from refugee camps, improve the camps and the status of refugees in conflict zones so that people return home once conflict ends. Yes there will be huge effort required, yes there will be huge problems, but at least we might actually help bring to light the core issues instead of patronisingly assuming we in the West hold the solution to the world’s problems. We really don’t, but sadly the liberal elite really think we (or they) do…

          • mikewaller

            You are actually articulating what any sensible liberal would favour. However, you are in the middle of a list many members of which are likely to fulminate over any further spending on this issue regardless of the way in which that money is spent. That, presumably, is why the government has been s— scared of doing things on anything like the scale you suggest. What fascinates me is the willingness of folks to fulminate against refugees and economic migrants whilst remaining silent – or even speaking admiringly – about that murderous scumbag, Putin.

          • JohnJ

            Have a look at the Australia solution. Then get out there and help all these poor refugees you are so concerned about. Calais awaits you. Take a tent. Just in case you are asked look up the first four Caliphs (Rachidun) and memorise it.

          • Jeffrey Vernon

            The migrants still set sail from Indonesia. They don’t land in Australia, but the problem of migrants fleeing Sri Lanka and Iran and Afpak has not gone away; they all end up somewhere (if they don’t drown).

          • John Bindon

            You make a good point. Ignored by everyone so far….

        • WTF

          Well I’m sorry you can’t see it but I’ll try and spell it out step by step.

          1/ Publicize internationally that there will be NO entry for any immigrant who tries to enter the EU illegally.

          2/ All immigrants no matter what their motivation MUST apply for immigration outside of the EU and be processed. They must also supply ID cards/passports to prove who they are.

          3/ To stop illegal crossing into the EU, the program of border fences already started by Hungary should be used to secure EU borders.

          4/ Any illegal immigrant found in any EU country will be deported immediately, no ifs or buts.

          5/ All human rights legislation to be suspended for illegal immigrants.

          6/ Any migrant who is permitted to enter the EU will not be allowed ANY welfare benefits for 5 years unless they can provide a surety of £125,000 per person. This is based on government figures that stated it costs 25k per person per year for a migrant. For every year they are working and pay tax, they will be refunded 25k per person up to the 125k they paid.

          • Snowmuncher

            Some excellent points.

            Unfortunately, mikewaller (aka Simon Schama) is likely to reject them as “pie in the sky”. For his benefit suggest you make up something about Thunderbirds going to Turkey and making a speech convincing the Syrians to stay put and then using Thunderbird 3 to repair their houses in Syria in a couple of days, to make everything better.

          • WTF

            Yep, Schama does live in a fantasy world of Thunderbirds and has far less common sense than the age of the target audience for that childrens program. Forget about “Thunderbirds are Go”, it should be Schama should GO along with all the others who are the problem !

            EU leaders like Merkel & Juncker doing nothing other than having committee meetings in Brussels is not an option and real action like the Australian model is needed as its proven to work. Rejecting proposals like the ones I’ve listed is not an option. Sooner rather than later I firmly believe the following will happen within 2 years if nothing is done to stem the flow.

            1/ Countries like Hungary and Croatia will secure their borders even more and to he**ll with Brussels. They’ll also refuse any migrant quota directive from Brussels and if penalized by Juncker in retaliation, they will exit the EU.

            2/ Merkel & Juncker have indirectly sewn the seeds for a new holocaust in Europe by their largesse of inviting migrants without looking at the social consequences. Once criminal and terrorist migrant elements start kicking off in earnest against the indigenous population, vigilantes will retaliate in the manner of the Nazis brown shirts. Already we have reports of young girls being trafficked and gang raped in these migrant camps but once it spreads outside of the camps and across Europe a culture war will kick off. Just how did Merkel think she was going to control the sexual drive of the 90% of migrants who are young men, put bromide in their tea ? Perhaps she should have set up camps in Hamburgs Reeperbahn district to protect Europes under age girls & boys. Innocent people will die as a result of the backlash to these crass policies and the elite in Brussels will have blood on their hands.

            We should remind them that it didn’t take much for WWI and WWII to kick off into hostilities but the libturds never take History at university or at least not in the social science sense !

          • mikewaller

            That would have sent almost all of the pathetically small number of Jews allowed to escape Germany pre-1939 straight back to the death camps.

          • WTF

            Not at all as their religion was well established and not a threat, they were genuine refugees of whole families and not 90% young men, in fact they were the perfect criteria for help. Trouble with libturds like you is you deliberately ‘confuse’ sensible vetting of refugees with racism and as a result want to allow any low life in the country. .

        • Snowmuncher

          You repeatedly write “you dodge the question, What do you propose should be done about the problem given the determination of so many people to get into Europe?”

          When you are told what should be done you make vague platitudes like “Oh, that’s pie in the sky”

          When you are told very short term solutions (more and better refuge camps with tents), and how to finance them your limp wristed riposte is “but 100k arrived in Greece this month” we need a solution NOW.

          What a ludicrous comment.

          The only answer that fits your requirement is for Superman to come and use his laser eyes to build some cities this morning.

          Grow up.

          • mikewaller

            I hope to God that were I involved in any kind of crisis that you aren’t the only guy around. My assumption is that the most immediate help you would be capable of offering would be a plan to re-organise the ambulance service!

        • mohdanga

          Err, instead of the Royal Navy saving boats it should be turning them back. Funny how it was able to defend Britain against the Germans in WWII.

    • Rufus Chucklebutty

      We are not letting refugees drown, THEY are making the choice to risk their lives because they think they will be housed and paid for in Europe, they are fools, it is not our responsibility to protect the stupid.

      The responsibility for Muslims is the Arab, and Muslim countries, and NGO’s. They regard us as Kaffir, why are they coming here ?

      • mohdanga

        Any offers of assistance from Saudi Arabia, UAE, Kuwait, Oman, Qatar, Indonesia, Malaysia, Iran, Pakistan, Egypt, etc?

      • mikewaller

        So what would you do with the ones who actually pitch up in Europe? Throw them back in the sea?

        • JohnJ

          UN camps are created everywhere. With the money that is currently spent on this debacle, those camps could be in Syria and protected. This is basically what Hong Kong did for the Chinese ‘refugees’. Their refugee camps were temporary. As China became more powerful the migrants went back. There are many Chinese in Australia who regret taking up Hawke’s offer of sanctuary after the Tienanmen Square.

          • mikewaller

            Setting up refuge camps in Syria would have been an excellent idea but would have entailed establishing no fly zones as the biggest killer of Syrians is still Assad. However, (a) our pusillanimous parliament won’t even agree to air attacks on Isil; and (b) with Russian now bombing everything in sight, the wider risks would be considerable.

            On other thing: whilst I would be very unhappy if I had to live under the communist regime in China, to suggest any kind of in kind of comparability between it and the murderous madhouse a lot of the middle-east has now degenerated into, seems to me an actionable case of libel!

  • Mungus Blanchart

    Shoot them. It’s Saudi Arabia and Israel’s asylum seeker strategy; and it’s very successful.

  • Mungus Blanchart

    Asia, Middle East and Africa have nearly 2 billion people living on less than 2 dollars a day. If the entire EU absorbed 1/4 of the people who wanted to not live and die in utter poverty, the population would double. This is assuming they’d be distributed evenly through-out the EU; which would never happen.

    Schama is being sentimental and irrational. The homeless in London are people who are suffering too, but Schama’s not about to invite 10 of them to live in his house.

    • Snowmuncher

      It’s astounding that some British people would really want to allow the 500 million from Africa and the Middle East into the EU, so that every countries’ population would double, so that the immigration would be the same size as the existing population.

      Ask the question, what is the limit to immigration ? And they will never answer.

  • Bogbrush

    I thought Schama humiliated himself on QT. A man who makes his not inconsiderable money by appearing to be a logic assessor of history and perspective was revealed to be nothing more than any virtue signaller at an unpleasant dinner party.
    His programmes have been very enjoyable, and perhaps he gets to stay calm and keep his head when he’s doing them, but perhaps they warrant a revisit with a more critical eye.

    • Seawolf

      He has completely discredited himself in my view.From now on,anything labelled ‘Shchama’ is not worth reading. Waste of my time.

      • JohnJ

        Yes the Islam and the mass migrant issue is a real filter of intelligence and the sense of responsibility. Those in favour of mass migration of Muslims are showing how shallow they are. I’ve been watching the falling of public intellectuals, writers, artists, and other public figures. Perhaps it is the ‘public’ part that has them trapped. For too long they have formed their opinions so they can attract a public following. (a wonderful term for this is ‘conspicuous compassion’). Now they find it impossible to think responsibly.

        • Seawolf

          I like that term ‘conspicuous compassion’.Good one.Reminds me of ‘competitive grieving’ which is what we had at the recent Shoreham Air disaster. All for the sake of showing their public how wonderful they are.

  • Rufus Chucklebutty

    I am interested in the modern phenomenon of interlectuals in Britain that seem to want to ethnically cleanse the white out of Britain, and somehow have convinced themselves that non white foreigners are intrinsically better in some way, some kind of innocence, uncorrupted by the daily mail maybe ?

    The fact that the countries they come from are failures still doesn’t ring any bells with people like scharma. I don’t understand what he actually wants, a society made up of 50 competing ethnic closed communities, that hate each other ?

    • Snipkokken Balsov

      As long as enough of them hate whites in general, and the white British in particular, then yes, that’s just what Simon (Dianna Open-Dors) Scharma wants.

    • Oliver

      Ever since the 80s I have heard the common refrain (from those who purport to be about brother and sisterly love)

      “When we are all coffee coloured there will be no more racism”

      I now realise this was less of a throwaway platitude and more of a political pledge.

  • Saint Angela and her band of EU apostles, in their infinite goodness, tell us that there is no upper limit for refugees. There is. They are just refusing to see it. In the train of this abject stupidity we will see swathes of Europe descend into poverty blighted chaos because that real limit has been passed.

    • Neil Saunders

      Perhaps, as non-mainstream commentators like Alan Watt (“Cutting Through the Matrix”) have stated, the transformation of first-world societies into third-world ones is a wholly desired outcome on the part of the global elites.

  • johnb1945

    Why does Merkel want so many refugees?
    The cynic in me thinks that both latent holocaust guilt and seeing some weird, as yet unclear opportunity to address Germany’s looming demographic crisis play a part.

    A couple of million young, work hungry Syrians should do the trick, and we can worry about their offspring becoming Salafis later, no?

    It’s probably immoral to denude the middle east of everyone except the ageing and the militant, so helping the refugees in the neighbouring countries which bear the brunt of the burden has to be the way forward.

    • Hamburger

      I don’t think she knew what she wanted. She has begun to see herself over the last few years as a moral authority rather than a politician. This is what you get.

  • Oliver

    London is majority minority and many other British cities and towns are headed in the same direction but for the regressive left who worship diversity (EG: less white people) like a god, it’s not enough.

    The thing is for them it is never enough. Mass immigration is an on going project, a battering ram which must be used with wild abandon in order to create a utopia where white racism and unequal outcome are expunged.

    The demand for MASS immigration to the West is not predicted on humanitarian disasters, desperate asylum seekers and images of suffering. It stems from an extreme desire to transform Western nations into less white and capitalistic societies.

    Make no mistake when they call you racist, heartless and inhumane for being sceptical of MASS immigration, what they really mean (whether they realise it or not) is counter revolutionary.

    • E.I.Cronin

      Well said. A recent conversation with two young Marxists confirms everything you say. The great thing is the evidence of cultural diversity’s failure is now overwhelming. Time to go on the offensive in private and public debate.

      • Oliver

        Sure Marxists definitely support a myriad of destructive policies in order to tear down the Western capitalist world but Machiavellian Marxists are few. It’s the useful idiots who have an identical urge to tear everything down but do so out of a sense of white Western guilt and suicidal altruism, that worry me most.

        They are many

      • Oliver

        Sure Marxists definitely support a myriad of destructive policies in order to tear down the Western capitalist world but Machiavellian Marxists are few. It’s the useful idiots who have an identical urge to tear everything down but do so out of a sense of white Western guilt and suicidal altruism, that worry me most.

        They are many

        • E.I.Cronin

          Agreed. My impression was youthful naivete and extreme idealism. The young lass almost cried with guilt and self-hatred over distant crimes no one alive today committed or condoned. Both were humanities students. Good, intelligent kids, but like Schama, inflamed with a dangerously stupid ideology.

          To be honest I was sceptical on first hearing about ‘Cultural Marxists’ and attributed it to paranoia. I was very wrong. I’m meeting useful idiots constantly.

          • Neil Saunders

            But it’s important to bear in mind that – rather like Buddhism and Shinto in Japan – it’s quite possible (and, indeed, usual these days) to be both a Neoliberal AND a Cultural Marxist.

          • E.I.Cronin

            Point. Apparently you can even be the new PM of a conservative government AND a Cultural Marxist too! I think of it as ideological Candida spp, it flourishes in any warm, dark, damp cavity – like student brains. I was watching the poor girl hunch over in self-disgust and thought, you look just like a grown up, but inside its the ‘i hate you’ mutiny phase against parental authority

        • Neil Saunders

          The “Marxists” (i.e. what passes for the left these days) do indeed support “a myriad of destructive policies” (which can be conveniently accommodated under the umbrella-term of Political Correctness), but so does the neoliberal right.

          The Economist and the WSJ positively LOVE mass immigration, while large banks and corporations have been falling over themselves to sign up to multiculturalism, feminism, same-sex marriage, et hoc genus omne. Beware of the false antithesis.

    • The transformation is aimed at democracy, as well: it is fundamentally anti-freedom.

      • Oliver

        Not sure about that. I don’t really think it is a political plan in any well thought out way. It is more of a symptom of deeply held prejudices and beliefs about the unique and almost omnipotent evils of the West and white people; a fetishisation of the 3rd world and people of colour, backed up by legitimate concerns about capitalism and inequality.

        All of these prejudices and beliefs just seem to converge to create the perfect storm of white guilt, civilisational fatigue and a desire to just end it all by peacefully handing over the future to the “oppressed” hungry masses.

        I think this is plain to see once you notice that this regressive lefty mindset is everywhere from America to France, England and Scandinavia and in manifests in people who in no way could be described as Marxists.

        • Mmm. Well, I AM sure.

        • KittyR

          I agree that this liberal agenda is founded on and manipulates deeply-held prejudice to induce guilt in white Western Europeans (and other Westerners) but it is also extremely politically motivated – the rise of the EU is evidence of this. The EU (like the UN) is dominated by a liberal-left elite who are quite determined to hold on to and gain more power, all at the expense of democratic freedom for the ordinary masses – I agree Callypigian – and this concerns me.

    • Neil Saunders

      There’s certainly a deranged utopianism on the part of the narcissist pseudo-left, but I think you’ll find quite a few capitalists cheering mass immigration on, too.

  • Jackthesmilingblack

    Other people’s childish quarrels are so boring.

  • Simon Morgan

    As an Aussie of some dozen years now, I can advise that we have ‘been there’, with bells on.

    The Labor government of 2007 did away with the effective border controls known as the Pacific Solution, which were put in place a decade before by the Howard government. Not a single illegal boat arrival had occurred in many years (but the left carried on a ceaseless campaign against the inhumanity of the Solution, and how we were an embarrassment on the world stage).

    Greens leader Bob Brown suggested there was no reason to fear a deluge of [boat] people simply because of more ‘humane’ immigration policies. Five years on, over 50,000 people had arrived by boat, and 1200 had been suspected of drowning en-route.

    The modus operandi was to fly into Jakarta, claim asylum there (to let them pass through Indonesia), catch a ride down to the coast, dump their documents as they got onto the next fishing boat, and hopefully they were rescued by the Australian Navy before it sank. Or the luckier ones made it to shore.

    The Liberal government of Tony Abbott managed to close the door again in 2013 (fighting the Greens and the left tooth and nail), and our detention centers are emptying as the claims are processed.

    The hatred of the left at this win-win for genuine refugees and Australia is something to behold.

    Logic just doesn’t work with these people. You can show them the emptying of the detention centers (particularly of children). You can show them that no illegal boats mean no more drownings at sea. You can show them that these illegal arrivals are taking the places of genuine refugees stuck in camps around the world.

    You can prove to them that Australia can’t afford to house and feed millions of migrants – it can’t be done because money doesn’t grow on trees. You can show them our cities are already over-crowded and services are being stretched to the limit.

    None of it makes the slightest difference. All they want is for us to be seen to be humane, and that means we must do away with any and all forms of border control. Anything less than that and we have become xenophobic little Englanders (or Auslanders).

    I can assure you, Mr. Liddle, that you will make absolutely no headway with Schama. Nothing will.

    • E.I.Cronin

      Brilliant. Thanks for articulating it so well. All I would add is the 10.1 Billion squandered on a people-smuggling trade that was deliberately allowed to resume. Pathological compassion has never had such a high price tag. Can you imagine the benefits for Australians and Foreign Aid that money could have created?

  • Shadeburst

    Rod Liddle when you say “a large Muslim charity” and fail to name it or provide links to the quotes, I suspect urban legendeering.

    • Anthorny

      I think you will find that the charity is The Human Relief Foundation as stated in the article.

    • Vuil

      Regrettably your ill informed comment – a simple Google search would have quickly thrown up an answer – points to the fact that you and an anus have a lot in common.

      • Toy Pupanbai

        Necessary but unmentionable? (Oh dear! I’m shewing my age again!)

  • Knives_and_Faux

    Merkel will be assassinated at the rate she is betraying the German people.

    • E.I.Cronin

      You know i really thought that might have happened just after Mutti opened the flood gates… would never wish it but imagine the results. Thilo Sarrazin installed as PM?!

    • Snowmuncher

      It seems the Germans have had 70 years of being castrated and guilt complexed by the rest of the world but rather than seeking atonement through ways more in line with acts of kindness to their victims, they decided to atone through acts of sheer lunacy via the migrant crisis.

    • Snowmuncher

      Yes, there has been one attack already:

      German mayoral candidate stabbed over refugee support
      http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-34561531

    • gvanderleun

      From your mouth to God’s ear.

  • Jeffrey Vernon

    While I resist the Something must be done brigade as much as RL, the Australian manoeuvre has not ‘worked’ except in the narrow sense of reducing migration to Australia. Large numbers of migrants still set sail in rickety boats from Indonesia, by origin mostly from Sri Lanka, Iran and Afghanistan.

    • mohdanga

      “…the Australian manoeuvre has not ‘worked’ except in the narrow sense of reducing migration to Australia.” Err, that was the goal, to reduce ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION.

  • English man

    Schama like the rest of the Liberal class want to be liked. That’s priority number one. And, in a Liberal society, nothing says I’m an oh so special person, who really cares, like : I’m all in favour of doing everything we can! It’s our moral duty, our obligation is to help these people, all of them, now!

    Of course, It won’t be Mr Schama who deals with the crisis. His hands won’t get dirty. He doesn’t see the ugly and unpleasant truth : the knifing’s, the abuse. The economic chancer’s and thugs who will only further the decline of Europe. No. Rather, he claims the moral superiority. He for fills his idealised world view, while he lets other people deal with the mess.

    Also, he lives in America. How nice of him to fly in and tells us all what we must do.

    • bengeo

      Judge a man by the content of his character. Not by the events that have befallen him.

      • English man

        What Schama, or the migrants?

  • Neil Saunders

    Schama, as an official mouthpiece of the globalist establishment, is so arrogant that he assumes that the argument has already long been settled in favour of people like himself, and that people like Rod Liddle are oddballs or trouble-makers who simply and perversely refuse to acknowledge the fact.

  • Joseph Hooker

    Simon Schama is a brilliant historian, Rod Liddle is the same to journalism, agree to disagree.

    • gvanderleun

      Simon Schama is a prat who needs to be boxed on the ears until they bleed and then put in a box and shipped to Syria.

  • Emmet

    They say “We must do more!”. We snort in derision. However, as Mr. Liddle points out in his article, government’s listen… to them. So the problem continues. People who don’t want to see their countries undergo further mass immigration must stand up and publically, without shame, say no and force our politicians to change course.

  • rattyxv

    The migrants at Calais wanting to get into the UK are overwhelmingly young men. The army has trouble meeting recruiting numbers. The army should send a recruiting unit to Calais and offer the migrants the opportunity to join the British Army for a minimum of five years when, subject to conduct, a recruit will receive rights of residency in the UK. Migrants will learn English, be fed and housed and perhaps form a sense of identity with the UK. If the uptake is large a separate unit could be formed similar to the Foreign Legion. If the uptake is low, recruits can be integrated with existing units. It was always thus – for 200 years impoverished Irish and Scots formed the backbone of the British Army. And today we have Gurkhas and Fijians. Five years should be long enough to figure out who the bad hats are. Anyone not interested in joining up – well we will know where they stand and they don’t get in, and if somehow they do, they will be deported to country of origin. And the Royal West Kents can march again.

    • Toy Pupanbai

      A sort of British Foreign Legion……..March or Die?

    • Joseph Hooker

      I have long thought this, we need ground troops. They could be called the Royal Disposables.

    • Joseph Hooker

      As a matter of fact we have a ready made army just faffing about on benefits. We could send these to the front in battle as “operation human shield” just in front of the professionals. We also have a ready made mechanized regiment ready to spearhead assaults on mobility scooters, the possibilities are endless.

  • DaviddeAngelis
  • william oliver

    Liddle, you are the angriest man in TV, so surely your move to TV history would be the most logical endpoint to all this?

  • More vulgar abuse. You must be an American – a veneer of civilisation, quickly rubbed off to reveal an out of control, bullying arsehole. Not that unusual sadly. The right-wing are even worse – ready to resort to violence in a heartbeat. No manners; no class; no substance. They can’t even read something they disagree with without losing control. Any normal person would simply shrug and pass on, or make a reasoned response. Mention that you were revolted by Scharma’s eulogising of the chosen people and you have a frenzied lunatic to deal with – spraying spittle and abuse all over his computer. Pretty poor show really. I would have said the same about any individual eulogising his race or his nation – of course Americans do that all the time too – all too often no self awareness and no concept of how they are viewed elsewhere.

  • Leftism is a societal cancer

    It’s because he is an anti-white Jew

    • Joseph Hooker

      What a disgraceful comment.

      • Leftism is a societal cancer

        Sorry you don’t like the truth.

  • Joseph Hooker

    Given that my pet hate from the Jewish community is being described as “Anti Semitic” if you have any comments to make on behalf of Palestinians who are oppressed, it makes no sense to copy their example. Furthermore Simon Schama is entitled to his views and I thoroughly enjoy his version of history, doesn’t mean I agree with it. I did not realize Jewish people are not “white” I thought they came in all colors like most of us. It is a brave man who describes himself as “racially pure” whatever that means.

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