Notebook

Confusion, snobbery and Pegida – a letter from Dresden

The views of the Stammtisch (the pub regulars) are a growing force in Germany, but they have yet to find someone to articulate them in the public sphere

31 January 2015

9:00 AM

31 January 2015

9:00 AM

Sachsenschweine — Saxon pigs — said the graffiti as my train moved out of Berlin on its way to Dresden. Germany is not as monolithic as it can seem: not only do some of its ancient kingdoms continue a ghostly existence as states of the Federal Republic, but also their populations nurture historic rivalries, at least on the football pitches. But the new popular movement in Dresden — Pegida, or ‘Patriotic Europeans against the Islamisation of the West’, no less — has thrown into relief keener intra-German divisions: not only those between immigrants and ethnic Germans but also those between many German voters and the country’s mortally politically correct establishment.

The French-Russian philosopher Alexandre Kojève was right to predict that, in a post-modern globalised world devoid of traditional values, the only remaining factor structuring society would be snobbery. When Kathrin Oertel, the de facto leader of Pegida, appeared on a chat show on 18 January, she was asked by the anchorman, ‘Who are Pegida’s supporters?’ ‘Ordinary people like you and me,’ she replied. Quick as a flash, the presenter retorted, ‘Like you, maybe. Like me, maybe not.’ Seldom has a member of the media super-class spoken so lucidly.

It is not difficult to mock her thus. Frau Oertel is Essex woman. Although she and her colleagues can mobilise 15,000 to 20,000 people in a wintry square every week, she is tongue-tied and gauche when dropped into national TV. Some of what she says makes sense but, for a protest movement, it has a bizarre lack of focus: the gripes range from immigration to the ‘media of lies’ and the need for more referendums. The language and views of the Stammtisch (the pub regulars) may be a growing political force in Germany, but they have yet to find someone to articulate them in the public sphere: in Britain, Nigel Farage’s smiling combination of dapper suits with a pint and a fag does the trick perfectly.


Worse, Pegida’s 19-point programme does not even contain any reference to Islamisation or Islamism. It talks instead about ‘radicalism, whether political or religious’ and about how parallel societies governed by sharia are undesirable. Faced with the biggest existential issue for the West today, the reaction of Germany’s biggest so-called anti-Islamist movement is silence. Pegida has dropped the ball, if it ever held it in the first place. It is not even clear how the protests will continue — the movement’s momentum in the last few months has been so meteoric (from 300 protesters at the first march to 25,000 two weeks ago) that it can only fizzle out as it comes down to earth.

Snobbery was also the prime mover behind the great anti-Pegida concert organised by the Dresden city authorities on Monday night. One after another, ageing luvvies came on stage to express their contempt for the movement. ‘Pegida is an uprising of stupid ignoramuses,’ a 60-year-old rocker told the crowd to applause. The propaganda was grotesque: one Muslim woman claimed that immigrants now do not feel safe on the streets of the city — what tosh! — while a Spanish student at the university said that Pegida should learn to accept people from different backgrounds. (It is obvious that no one in Pegida has ever even thought of attacking such temporary intra-European movement of people.) The slogans ‘Humanism’, ‘Equality’ and ‘Tolerance’ were shone on to the surrounding buildings, just as 25 years ago the Communist authorities would have proclaimed ‘Unity’, ‘Equality’ or ‘Peace’. Pegida’s organisers themselves took part in the ‘Wir sind das Volk’ marches in 1989; one had the impression on Monday that they had marched in vain.

And, just as at the ‘Je suis Charlie’ march in Paris a fortnight ago, the exalted ‘diversity’ was in fact absent from the attendees of the ‘Wir sind nicht Pegida’ concert. The usual ethnic mix of most German cities vanished as Europeans alone congregated to parade their self-laudatory (and self-destructive?) values of tolerance. Moreover, just as the French marches celebrated the right to free speech at the same time as the police were arresting the anti-Zionist comedian Dieudonné in a dawn raid for another one of his tasteless tweets, so the German political-media-artistic establishment engaged in a truly hallucinatory act of double-think when it continued to denounce Pegida for exaggerating the Islamist danger, while approving the cancellation of the previous week’s march because of a credible threat that the movement’s leader would be assassinated.

But the master — or mistress — of doublethink is Mutti herself: Mummy, as the German Federal Chancellor is sarcastically known. (She has deliberately never had any children.) Angela Merkel put on her glummest rainy-afternoon-in-Chemnitz face to give Pegida supporters a sound telling-off during her New Year’s broadcast to the nation earlier this month. ‘I say to those who go to these marches, don’t follow these people! They have prejudices, coldness, even hatred in their hearts!’ This is the same woman who, in 2010, wowed a room full of CDU young bloods with a full-frontal attack on uncontrolled immigration and multiculturalism. When the same person goes from being Norman Tebbit to Shami Chakrabarti in four years, there must be something wrong. No wonder Germans are angry with her.

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  • Oddsbods

    “Worse, Pegida’s 19-point programme does not even contain any reference
    to Islamisation or Islamism. It talks instead about ‘radicalism, whether
    political or religious’ and about how parallel societies governed by
    sharia are undesirable.”

    Having “against Islamisation” in their name negates the requirement to repeat it in their program, everyone is clear what ‘radicalism, whether
    political or religious’ is being referred to, especially when “Sharia” is mentioned!

    I think they will return, maybe under another name, and without the problem of the more right wing organisers. The problems that brought them into existence have not gone away so why should PEGIDA. Today, a report that the carnival committee in Cologne decided that “it would be better for everybody” if they did not allow a carnival float with a “Charlie Hebdo” motif. That, although the citizens of Cologne had chosen that motif in a referendum. Pandering to Islamic requirements continues.

  • Polly Radial

    Can we please NOT have the words ‘Merkel’ and ‘full frontal’ in the same paragraph.
    It only encourages people to Google it.

    • Mc

      Unless one is into granny porn, I doubt someone will be keen to Google that phrase.

      • Guest

        Dirty little boy!

    • Hogspace
      • Mc

        Why do all the guys in the background of that poster had such big boners? Is it a German thing to get a boner for flabby grannies like Merkel?

    • David Prentice

      I employ doublethink when confronted by this provocative phrase, comrade.

  • pointlesswasteoftime

    I like the idea of a transgendered Norman Tebbit becoming Shami Chakrabati. The procedures that must involve!

  • Craven Moorehead

    support PEGIDA!
    WAKE UP!

    • Damian Hurts

      Best to catch a flight to Dresden/Leipzig and join them.

      • Guest

        no need, they’ll soon be here

        it’s only a matter of time, how much longer can european politicians go on pretending the people are happy?

        • Inglorious Basterd Nazi Scarer

          Pegida UK, or PUK for short, will come coming over here, stealing the jobs of the British patriots like the EDL.

      • mr_nicely

        Huge crowds at LEGIDA now – 30th Jan. I respect these Germans peacefully protecting their culture. Their culture is NOT Islam or the barbaric sharia law and neither is ours. Muslims here are facing down politicians and are becoming beyond criticism. Our most common new name for babies is Mohamed. All this yet – “It has nothing to do with Islam”. Wake up!

        • Inglorious Basterd Nazi Scarer

          1400 people turned up tonight. EDL Maths!

        • Guest

          Nazi Scum, your time has come……. to get a life and stop being a bigot!

          • Gwangi

            I think you’ll find the group in society that has most in common with the Nazis is the Muslims, all those supporters of Islamofacist Hamas and Gaza Jew-haters. The useful idiots of the left have long been willing to betray our values as they pander to Muslims in their traditional Jew-hatred. Let’s hope ISIS get the leftie traitors instead of those who see clearly what a threat Fascism with a brown Mohammed face is.

          • Icebow

            Don’t feed the trolls!

          • Guest

            Nazis used to gas people

            Muslims today gas people

            I guess we have found the new Nazis.

          • mr_nicely

            Antifa?

    • Guest

      Support that famous German, nazi scum. Adolf Hitler!

      • Guest

        you mean half the Muslim world’s best friend?
        ‘Mein Kampf’ is not a bestseller in islamic countries for nothing, it’s like their to-do-list

      • Cobbett

        Austrian, not German.

        • Guest

          in his defence: muslims are shockingly ignorant about pretty much everything

        • Gwangi

          To be fair, I think the fuhrer believed in a greater Germany which included Austria.

      • Craven Moorehead

        if you support islam you support hitler. 2 peas in a pod.

    • DonnaTxx

      Check out Pegida UK on facebook.

  • Mc

    “This is the same woman who, in 2010, wowed a room full of CDU young bloods with a full-frontal attack on uncontrolled immigration and multiculturalism.”
    This is also the same women who somehow managed to flourish professionally in East Germany, a country where people didn’t flourish unless the authorities gave the green light.

    • Jody Taylor

      You are 100% right. Merkel declared “multiculturalism is a failure”. It was reported in The Guardian and if you Google this you can still see the article. She’s a total hypocrite. I used to admire her – now I regard her as a two-faced opportunist.

    • Fritz123

      The GDR was much different from what we think of it and she was a very bright nuclear physics doctor. You dont have many of them….

      • Mc

        Only those considered “safe” by the authorities were permitted into university and allowed to take up certain jobs. She was an FDJ member, even though it wasn’t obligatory to join. The give away is that one couldn’t get into university unless one was an FDJ member. At university, she was a member of the FDJ district board and secretary for Agitprop. At the very least, she sounds like a co-operative opportunist who was prepared to hold her nose, irrespective of the regime’s odiousness.
        I can’t quite see her past being ignored in the same way if she had been a district board member of the Hitler Youth and an underling to Goebbels. Isn’t it curious how voluntary participation in totalitarian Socialism is considered to be perfectly acceptable in polite company?

        • Fritz123

          Well, Hitler was free to do whatever he wanted to do, Mrs. Merkel did not kill Jews. She lived in the GDR, what would you have expected her to do?

          • Mc

            I wasn’t saying Merkel was Hitler or that she killed people. I pointed out that she was under no obligation to join organisations that had earie similarities to Nazi ones. In other words, she had rather grotty, self-interested principles. No one forced Merkel to join party organisations and she could have used various means to leave the GDR and start / continue a career elsewhere. In other words, she made choices entirely of her own free will with one objective only – to opportunistically milk a dictatorship for every advantage she could. I am pretty certain that she would have behaved in exactly the same way if she’d lived under a Nazi regime. Her behaviour is in contrast to those East Germans who had the integrity to not suck up to the party (as with Germans who declined to join the Nazi Party, in spite of the often certain detrimental consequences to their careers). Some East Germans performed the ultimate rejection of the GDR by escaping before and after the wall was built, an option that didn’t seem to occur to Merkel.

            I find it tellingly interesting that voters are comfortable with voting for someone who put her own interests above basic decency. And they’ve continued to vote for her despite her continuation of that behaviour while in office.

          • Hamburger

            Her history is interesting. Her father was a communist priest who left Hamburg for the east shortly after her birth, ending up as a bishop with close contact to the communist leadership. Normally the children of the clergy were not allowed to study.

          • Mc

            My understanding to date is that totalitarian regimes have a price of betrayal for every transaction. For example, what did Merkel’s father exchange in order to operate as a clergyman and Merkel herself to have a university and professional career? I just can’t see GDR officials being uncharacteristically sweet and declining to extract a price from Merkel or her father.

            The only remaining mystery for me is how many Stasi files conveniently disappeared and how much money changed hands to facilitate that disappearance. Do you know of any English language books on the topic?

          • Hamburger

            Her father was part of the regime apparatus, even as a priest and needed no coercion. She was also active, even if the evidence has been hidden. In any case her version of her life in the DDR is full of holes. Our journalists are lazy and cowed.
            I am not sure how many Stasis files have been destroyed, however there are many still unsorted an unread.
            Regarding English books on the subject, I am afraid I cannot help you.

          • Fritz123

            Well, as much as I like this equation, it was much different. As I am living as a Westener in the East life in the former GDR, that has not changed much, was not so bad. It was more peacefull in ordinary life. IMHO thats what the Dresdeners miss most. How to live in the former GDR is a question that nobody can answer who did not live there. The ideology did not matter very much. It was like the nonsense politicicians say every day and had many subtexts. It is surprising how much freedom people had in reality anyway. Without that freedom the former GDR would have colapsed within a week. And people had a real interest in that it did work. There were Russian tanks everywhere anyway. In the GDR-Youth organisation you could be with your friends etc and the real work was not very political. The most important part of it was maybe that she learnt how to lead. And her most important insight may have been, that the former GDR was at its end some day. This is what interests me most with people who once had some role in it.

          • Mc

            “Without that freedom the former GDR would have colapsed within a week.”

            Yes, that must be why the GDR built that wall – to selfishly keep all that freedom to themselves. That must also be why they had the Stasi: to ensure those lovely freedoms were kept secret and not leak out to the West in case the Westerners jumped the wall to drink from the fountain of peace and justice. And all those Stasi informers, ensuring any leaks into the general population about those delicious freedoms were quickly plugged. That must also be why opposition parties and dissidents were banned – too much of a threat to the sweet air of freedom.

          • Fritz123

            Well, lets nor forget the Russian tanks and the rest. And lets not forget the freedom of the three other powers in Berlin to do what they could have done, maybe or not. The alternativ to what Merkel did was civil war. And war is worse in most cases. I dont think she did anything bad. Ideology never matters.

        • Guest

          The EDL have a footsoldier within their ranks called David Safe.

  • mikewaller

    I cannot see that much is gained by calling the espousal of the world view commonly known as political correctness, “snobbery”. It grew out of a genuine reaction to the horrors of the mid-twentieth century including, in this country, outbursts like the Notting Hill race riots, themselves a reaction to the initial phase of mass-immigration. It became part of the mind-set of the baby-boomers who did best out of the greatly increased educational opportunities to the extent of being viewed by them as a sine qua non of being a nice person. Its penetration into the great mass of the population was at best patchy but any outburst such as mass support for Enoch Powell or the infamous electoral result at Smethwick met with such opprobrium from those who controlled the politico-media complex as to keep such feelings in check. It therefore seems far more likely that the German interviewer was, in effect, saying “I am not a horrible person like you” rather than “I am not a common person like you”.

    All that said, it seems to me that whilst doing all that is possible further to cut down immigration and bring about the fuller integration of those already here, I cannot see that we actually have much choice now other than to continue treating all citizens regardless of background in as fair a way as possible. Doing otherwise would be to open the gates of Hell.

    • pp22pp

      The gates of Hell are going to be opened anyway. Muslims and Jews living in peace in London?!? Dream on, mate. Maureen Lipman said she n longer felt safe in Britain as a Jew and then was too pathetic to say why. Have you not noticed how Ken Livingstone used to seek the Muslim vote by making anti-Jewish comments?

      • Jody Taylor

        The rise of anti-semitism is a consequence of mass migration from Muslim countries, particularly those surrounding the State of Israel. None of this is rocket science; the new arrivals have brought their hatreds and sectarianism WITH THEM to the UK and the rest of the first world.

        Very smart move – NOT. Actually, it continues to stagger me how stupid is the polity in toto in the western world. Dumb and stupid.

        • Earthenware

          To suggest that it’s stupid is to suppose that it is not deliberate.

          Consider that the Home Secretary deliberately allowed Jihadists to return from their ISIS activities to Britain, in full knowledge of the ideals that they hold. It is obvious to everyone that such people are a huge danger.

          Why would a politician brave the inevitable public disquiet unless they perceived there to an advantage in allowing these people into Britain?

          Theresa May, like all politicians, weighs up the advantages and disadvantages of any decision. What we need to know is what exactly is the advantage that she perceives from allowing ISIS fighters into Britain?

          • Jody Taylor

            I meant “stupid” in the sense that nobody (the ordinary people who could march on the streets) has shown a willingness to do anything about it, and continue to allow themselves to be shut down by the left and prevented from having “the conversation”.

            I’m not speaking specifically about ISIS fighters here (there are plenty of people with jelly spines who are enablers of this – or any other kind – of behaviour) but non-assimilating immigration more generally.

        • Mode4

          Am I the only one that’s shocked when I see religious groups walking through the streets of London saying “Hitler was right” and worse slogans. They are shepherded along the street by British Bobbies. Complicit in the hatred of these hateful people. It wasn’t by accident that Muslims were introduced to Europe, it is part of the European campaign to divide our Nations and crush any patriotism so we can all be a European citizens in the future. Divide and conquer.

          • Jody Taylor

            We need to have a calm and rational debate on the subject and not feel censored or demonized by leftists who want to shut down the discussion. That’s a huge problem and crashing through might be the only alternative; this is where the numbers on the ground will count.

            I believe the vast majority of dissenters against Muslim immigration are decent hard-working folk whose opinions count in a democracy and who believe in ‘majoritarian democracy’. Try telling the Left that!!! They will cover their ears and scream while you’re trying to speak. Just like any infant.

      • mikewaller

        We went through all this a couple of weeks ago. Of course, the arrival of millions of Muslims in the West has been greatly to the political disadvantage of Israel. However, given the general antipathy towards those Muslims amongst the indigenous populations, it is highly unlikely that those populations have had their views on Israel formed by the incomers. I have spent the last twenty years in rural England is areas where neither Jews nor Muslims are a significant presence. What has surprised me is sheer depth of anti-Israel sentiment. If you ask why, it centers not on some atavistic antisemitism; it is all to do with the Israeli treatment of Palestinians in general and the behaviour of very widely despised fanatics who have settled beyond the 1967 borders in particular.

        • MaSek12

          And the manipulation of our country’s ‘government’.

        • Tom M

          1967 borders? First of all Mike you would have to explain why you think these are borders. These aren’t borders but are where the armistice line was drawn in 1967. It was always intended that (UN 242 I think it was) the final delineation would be subject to further negotiation, except it has never happened.
          At this point it is as well to remember that the arabs had started a war previously in 1947 because they didn’t like the borders proposed by the UN (and another after that in 1973 but these don’t seem to matter much in the reckoning).
          As to your comment about anti-semitic sentiments in your neck of the woods. Perhaps there are no Jews or Arabs around there but you do get the BBC I imagine. If this was the main source of information on the subject it wouldn’t surprise me one bit to see rampant anti-semitism.

          • mikewaller

            The idea that the BBC shapes public opinion fails on the PC test. The BBC has been pushing the BBC agenda for decades – for the most part it just means being nice to people – yet the ordinary folk I mix with strongly dislike it. A brilliant sociologist made the point decades ago that the London dockers “followed Jack Dash [a communist] on industrial relations but Enoch Powell on race relations” i.e. unless you use the most horrendous brain washing techniques and/or massive intimidation, people tend to come to their own conclusions in their own interests.

          • Tom M

            Interesting argument. The logical conclusion then would be that the BBC doesn’t change anybody’s previously held views. Which of course cannot be true.
            People get their opinions and views from somewhere and the BBC, according to statistics, is the main source for most.
            I remember the moment I realised the BBC’s reporting was anything other than unbiased. The BBC’s Orla Guerin was reporting from Jenin on the West Bank a long time ago. She appeared nightly in front of bombed out buildings telling the world about heavy-handed Israeli troops actions against the poor Palestinians and reducing Jenin to rubble.
            I bought all of this until I noticed that it was the same building each night, albeit from a different angle. A satellite picture found later confirmed my view. There were precious few others to back up her hype (that isn’t to say that Israel wasn’t in Jenin with an army or that the Palestinian people weren’t suffering. Just that the BBC were slanting the news to suit their agenda). From then on my view on this has been confirmed quite often.
            Anyway all that apart I was looking forward to you explaining about the 1967 “borders” you mentioned. A few words perhaps about what you would think if your country had been attacked three times (at least) with a view to removing you and your people from the face of the earth and how keen you would be to believe and negotiate with the people who did this. An aspiration still retained by the same people in spite of having lost the three wars.
            As a topical point I am glad Israel exists because as was shown in France some days ago there are precious few places they can exist in peace and quiet.

          • mikewaller

            I think that the BBC’s agenda amounts to little more than “lets be nice to everybody, particularly the little guy”. It may be naive, but it’s kind of pleasant. However, whilst this does not cause me much difficulty, IMHO, it does you because it runs slap-bang into the deeply problematic issue of Israel. As an extraordinary act of will and courage (plus a lot of brutality) Israel was established in the heart of what the believers call “the Muslim lands”. Had Jews managed to nab, say, pre-white settlement Florida or Tasmania, the story might well have been different. They could have done what the Europeans did: render the indigenous population non-existent or an inconsequential minority. But in the Middle-East it was never going to be like that; there are simply too many millions of Muslims. Worse from your point of view, neither they nor the majority of other ethnicities buy into your founding principle that your God “gave” you the land in perpetuity. This means that to hold your ground against incessant attempts to push you out, you have to resort to measures that the BBC-minded find deeply offensive. Hence the clash.

          • Tom M

            Good afternoon Mike.
            “lets be nice to everybody, particularly the little guy”. It may be naive, but it’s kind of pleasant….”
            That might not cause you any difficulty but just think what you have written. “being nice to everybody” isn’t telling it as it is especially when BBC reporters go out of their way to call attention to and exaggerate what the Israelis do but make little reference what the Palestinians do? That’s unfair and biased it’s not naive. There is some evidence to suggest this is due to Palestinian Authorities putting pressure on journalists so why not make it public, very public?
            As to “Muslim Lands” you are on somewhat dodgy ground here. Just take a look at the history of the middle east and you will see how that is so. I read a book (yet another) recently on the region and the author discussing this point said “but the Jews have prior claim over the area to the Muslims”. A simple satement which encapsulates a good point I thought. I’ve always wondered what would the Muslims think (or be doing) if they Jews had built their third most important religious site on top of the Grand Mosque in Mecca.
            As far as God, your comment and his territorial covenants are concerned I don’t give them anymore thought or consideration than I would any other daft religious notion. What matters, as far as borders are concerned, isn’t who lived there first or second or in how many numbers . What matters is that two peoples had a territorial dispute and couldn’t resolve it. It was sent to arbitration (the general civilised way instead of an all out war).
            The UN security council heard the case and voted. That should have been an end to it. But it wasn’t, the arabs have had the idea of removing Israel by force since then. That is wrong.
            There is a de facto low level war in the region and all the things that get reported are the result of the war. People get hurt in wars. All people in wars do appalling things (and that includes Israel). Wars stop when all the participants get round the table and talk about it.
            Strangely, as a comparison, the French did more or less the same thing when they created Lebanon. This was also a religious separation from the Muslims and Lebanon’s constitution was designed to ensure a dominant Christian presence in the government. Interestingly the same never ending war goes on there but rarely is it presented as Christians fighting Muslims unlike Israel and the Palestinians It just presented as a racially anonymous war.
            Personally I think that if Britain had the notion to create Israel after WW1 then they should have made the dividing line the river Jordan. All parts west (including Gaza) should have been Israeli.
            Some consideration could have been made for Muslim religious access to Jerusalem. The Muslims could hardly fault the logic of that as this was exactly what they did for Christians from the 7th till the 10th centuries.

          • mikewaller

            I think the whole of the M-E situation a mess and given what has happened in Iraqi, Syria, Libya, Paris, London, New York etc etc., I am by no means a fan of militant Islam. “Murderous bastards” better catches my view.

            However, to me facts are sacred and that is where I usually run into trouble with my Jewish friends. For a start, do as I did a few months ago and check out that UN vote. With the Soviet bloc then off having a sulk, the comparatively small number of states voting were largely in thrall to the then triumphant US. So they were hardly likely to have given Arab interests equal weight once the US had made its position clear. And regarding showing civilised respect to the UN, remember who at that time killed its representative.

            As for “prior claims”, not all that long after the putative dispersal of the entire Jewish population of Israel the Romano-British Celts were either subjugated, slaughtered or driven Westward, principally into Wales by the Anglo-Saxons invaders. Would you give support to any claim their heirs might make to the lusher parts of England?

            I could go on and on, but really its waste of time. You are where you are and believing what you believe is all part of your survival strategy. Trouble is that caries two downsides. First, it denies you the chance fully to understand your enemies world view. Second, some outsiders get pissed off when asked to buy into those elements which are best described as foundation myths.

          • Tom M

            Afternoon Mike. Please note the “prior claims” agrument is interesting but unimportant in my view. The importance for me is the decision taken by the UN security council in 1947. That the composition of the council may not be to your liking is irrelevent. That was the best we had at the time (to imply otherwise is to put all court decisions anywhere up for grabs by anybody who doesn’t agree). Can’t be done. A line must be drawn somewhere.
            Israel exists and I support it because they are a democracy in the midst of totalitarianism (that doesn’t mean I agree with all they do). I do not support the arabs because they aren’t democratic they are a religious theocracy and that can never work for the benefit of their people.
            If push comes to shove I will always support the democracy because that’s the only game in town.

          • mikewaller

            It is not a matter of what you are I think or would do. As it happens I too would be deeply unwilling to see Israel overwhelmed by the blood-soaked forces of Arab nationalism. However, that does not stop me feeling very, very unhappy about how this particular mess came in to being. If you do as I have just done and go to the Wikipedia page entitled “United Nations Partition Plan for Palestine” and read there the details surrounding that vote, you would have to be the most purblind fool in Christendom is you could not see why those on the losing side consider it a wholly corrupt exercise by which they do not feel bound. Israel makes thinks even worse by treating that resolution as Holy writ whilst choosing flagrantly to ignore subsequent ones.

          • Tom M

            Ahh yes the UN vote. Well it might be all you say it is but as I said before it was the best we had at the time and that was the result.
            The “losing side” weren’t happy and don’t feel bound? If they reject the negotiation and arbitration route the that is a declaration of war. Which of course is what they did but they can’t abide the result (s) of that either. Cannot be done Mike a line must be drawn somewhere otherwise this is never ending and the more never ending it is the more I think that is just how the arabs like it otherwise they would have compromised and made a deal don’t you think?
            Reading material? A look at my bookshelves gives me these titles all are related to events leading up to the 1947 UN vote:
            A Line in the Sand by James Barr
            The Berlin-Baghdad Express by Sean McMeekin
            The Balfour Declaration by Jonathan Schneer
            If you think there were political moves behind the UN vote then read some of those books. Makes the UN look like rank amateurs.

          • mikewaller

            The simple answer is that it will be never ending. The Jews awaited 2000 years to get back to Palestine, the Irish 800 years to rid themselves of the British. Why do you expect the Muslims to be any different? As for compromise, there is not real enthusiasm for that on either side. If there were among the Israelis they would do something serious about those wretched settlers. At the person level, all your ever shifting justifications do to me is intensify the feeling that here is a guy to whom the wish is the father to the thought.

          • Tom M

            Mike ” there is not real enthusiasm for that on either side”. I don’t know about being enthusiastic but the Jews did agree with the pre-1947 partition plans (both of them) proposed by the British. The arabs didn’t. The Jews agreed with the 1947 partition plan proposed by the UN. The arabs didn’t.
            The summit between Arafat and Barak at Camp David in 2000 gave Arafat almost all he wanted. Barak only wanted a peace deal. He was prepared to give all that was asked the only remaining item on the agenda was Jerusalem. Arafat couldn’t cope with that not at all he stormed out returned and started an intifada. (read Madelaine Allbright’s biography for an insight into Arafat’s negotiating technique.)
            And you support people who act like this? Please please don’t tell me the arabs are or ever have been serious about a peace deal.
            Readng all that you have written I don’t think you support Israel at all. All your comments are describing how badly done the Muslims have been on a decision taken over 65 years ago to separate two groups who were at each other’s throats. You cannot please the Muslims by drawing a border anywhere, they have demonstrated this several times in the region and you apparently have no complaint about this.
            You continually refer to the plight of the Palestinians as being the whole fault of Israel. Sorry but the Palestinian leadership bear a lot of the responsiblity for this as well. They must be the only people in history who have started three major wars with their neighbour, lost all of them, still refuse to come to terms and still threatening to wipe their neighbour off the map. You couldn’t make it up.

          • mikewaller

            You seem a genuine sort but I think that you simply cannot get your mind round the issue from an Arab perspective. Forget for a moment how you see things and consider the following analogy. They see themselves the equivalent of somebody who has been robbed of the contents of their house who then finds it all displayed on a stall at a car-boot. Having unsuccessfully demanded it back they get in a big punch-up with the stall holder and come off very much worse. Then up come the policeman (=UN) and says “Possession is nine part of the law so why don’t you come to some amicable agreement whereby you have half each?” In circumstances of complete powerlessness the property owner might very grudgingly say “Yes”; but not so when, for all their current weakness, they feel that time and numbers are on their side. And that I think is the situation in which Israel finds itself: surrounded by millions of folk who remain convinced that they have been robbed of what is rightfully theirs and who continually mutter to themselves a Palestinian equivalent of the Irish chant “England’s peril, Ireland’s hope!”

            Sadly, trying to out-argue an inconsequential Brit ain’t going to change that one jot.

          • Tom M

            Encore une fois. I am a genuine sort Mike my mother used to say so. I read lots and lots of history and make my mind up.
            You say I can’t get my head round the arabs sense of injustice? The arabs sense of injustice encapsulates a lot more than Israel. You are aware are you not that their sense of injustice extends to the original limits of their expansion in the 7th Century. That includes Spain and France. They think they were thrown out of those countries (and others) and they want them back. You are aware of the new Caliphate aren’t you?
            As far as the current situation goes then if the UN vote had went the other way would you be happy to apply the we-was-robbed mantra if the Jews had complained and waged wars to emphasise their point or would you, as I suspect, say too bad, a vote is a vote?
            You compose excuses for BBC bias (or being nice to the little people as you say)
            You complain about the composition of the UN which voted for partition.
            You complain about the Israelis fitghting for their country.
            You make excuses for “murdering bastards” surrounding Israel as you called them.
            You ignore that fact that they collectively have started three genocidal wars to eradicate the state of Israel.
            You state that the Jews have no enthusiasm for comrpomise and I referred you to four well documented attempts at a solution which the Jews were willing to participate in and the arabs flatly refused yet this has no impact upon your view that the Jews won’t negotiate.
            But you have given the Israelis no consideration at all. It’s all their fault. What you are in effect saying is that you don’t agree the state of Israel should exist.
            I am happy to peg the whole debate upon the result of the UN vote in 1947.
            If you do not accept this and search for an earier historical reason why Israel should not exist then you are on even more dodgy ground if you say the arabs belonged there. They didn’t. They invaded the area in 638. So on that basis the don’t belong there either (remember the Jews “prior claim”).
            If you have facts to argue with Mike keep replying. If you think that vague notions of a sense of loss for the arabs is good enough for a discussion please don’t bother it means nothing we can all claim one of those.

          • mikewaller

            We are wholly at cross purposes. I am not adjudicating on right or wrong. I am simply doing my best to give the Arab perspective. And, yes, I agree that would include, inter alia, taking back Spain if they could achieve it. Indeed bringing the whole world under the green(?) flag of Islam is still very much on the agenda among some. The very idea of that appalls me and I would far prefer to be in a world in which Muslim fervor was a thing of the past and Israel was as snug as a bug within agreed borders.

            Sadly that ain’t the world on offer and whilst you can hone your case to the nth degree, they just ain’t listening. Worse, the more you hammer away at putting it across to to third parties like me, the more clear the logical inconsistencies seem to become. The bottom line is this. As there is no indisputably killer argument you can adduce – and even if you could, the Arabs would ignore it – Israel will just have to soldier on with two bedrocks of protection. The possession of nuclear weapons and a probable unwillingness of the Western World to see Jewish people put to the sword again. However the latter is not well served by the antics of the settlers and the kind of massive over-kill as recently occurred in Gaza.

          • Kennybhoy

            “…yet the ordinary folk I mix with strongly dislike it.”

            Nope again. Most have a pick and choose attitude to PC.

          • mikewaller

            I don’t disagree, but that just serves to re-enforce my point.

        • pp22pp

          I lived in rural England for most of my life. There is very little anti-Israeli sentiment. Most people don’t think about Israel at all. What I did notice was Jewish families moving out of our tolerant diverse cities into small villages where the population was not planning to lynch them.

        • Kennybhoy

          Nope.Where it exists such sentiment is all to do with that traditional antisemitism temporarily driven underground by the proximity of Ha Shoa and events during the British Mandate.

          “1967 borders…” Duh?

          • mikewaller

            Not clear what “events during the British Mandate” had to do with it. My feeling is that militant Zionism (aka “terrorism”) fueled anti-antisemitism in this country rather than suppressed it. As for “traditional antisemitism” I accept that in the past this was very powerful and given this mongrel nations historic capacity to absorb all sorts of ethnicities (albeit in the past, “white”), one has to ask why.

            No doubt the extreme wickedness of the Christian churches in maintaining for millenia the stupid notion of Jewish collective guilt for the death of Christ was a factor. Another was the Jewish specialism in money-leading which, as in York, gave the debtor an out if he could turn the mob against those from whom he had borrowed money. However, there is another factor that applies with equal force to Muslims and (more so in the past) Catholics: the desire to maintain a totally separate gene-line. I suspect that for the most fundamental of evolutionary reasons, this kind of behaviour is always seen as deeply threatening. Ironically, with Jews the basic numbers meant that the fear of being “taken over” was never a real threat; however, with Catholics in the past it looked a more serious issue as it does with Muslims now.

            All that said, I stand by my original point. Adverse feelings towards Jews in the wider UK population have now been dramatically overtaken by concerns about the much larger numbers of much more recent immigrants. So in looking at what is happening in Israel/Palestine, all other things being equal, the Israelis have a definite advantage. “They” ,after all, are so much more like “us”. The trouble is that all other things are not equal and that is what makes folk antagonistic.

    • Jody Taylor

      Don’t you think the Gates of Hell are open enough already? Trying to blame your own (host) country isn’t a solution; absolving other groups of their personal responsibility to learn English and integrate is another road to Hell.

      • mikewaller

        How you get from “and bring about the fuller integration of those already here” to “absolving other groups of their personal responsibility to learn English and integrate” is beyond me. As I have previously made clear, I would crystallise the current rather woolly proposals on teaching “British Values” in schools, make it both examinable and mandatory and fire any teaching professionals unwilling to support this. I would also make a good pass in the subject a university requirement.

        More widely, I would increase the child allowance but make it dependent on achieving specified developmental standards, save only for medical exceptions. By this latter measure I would hope to do something about a far wider issue: the failure of a significant number of parents across all ethnicities to give their children the kind of start essential to success in a ferociously competitive globalised economy.

        • Jody Taylor

          I’m afraid to say that the UK will be left behind in a “ferociously competitive globalised economy” because it has too many things weighing it down; welfare being the main one. Too many people; you’re FULL and unable to do anything about it. Time for some radical changes and the “No Vacancy” sign to go up – that includes temporary workers in Visas (like Australians, for instance).

        • pp22pp

          I have zero desire to integrate with the majority of our non-Western immigrants. All I wish to do is reduce my interaction with them to the bare minimum.

          • mikewaller

            Then we will have to look elsewhere for sensible guidance as to how best to proceed!

          • pp22pp

            I have lived in Japan and speak the language. They have a sensible immigration policy. Mixing ourselves with the detritus that has washed up on our shores is not sensible. Israel is another country with a sensible immigration policy. We could also find inspiration from Malaysia.

          • mikewaller

            The milk, my friend, is spilt!

          • pp22pp

            The Israeli and Malays have done a pretty good job of unspilling it, my friend.

        • Mode4

          We are overpopulated why do we encourage more children with child benefit. If you want children you have to pay for them, not the taxpayer. This will prevent the well known, I’ll have 6 children so that I never have to work syndrome. It has to stop. Child benefit was brought in after the war because woman had lost their husband in the war and has never been dropped because it was a vote winner. Times have changed and so has our over populated Country. In special cases of hardship, cases should be address to the relevant government department.

          • mikewaller

            What we have is (a) an ever rising number of pensioners, something that is going to get more and more serious; and (b) insufficient young people capable of making a positive contribution to the economy. Can’t do much about (a) in the short to medium term other than to make clear just how big the problem is. One figure I saw suggested that by 2050 those over pensionable age will comprise over 40% of the population. It is currently heading towards 25%.

            Against this background, we certainly have to do everything humanely possible to minimise the number of non-contributing overseas entrants to our work force, however what is a national scandal is the number of native born children who simply do not have what it takes to get a job. I do not include in this group talented individuals for who currently cannot find a suitable job. I mean individuals whom employers would be reluctant to give a job in any circumstances. If we do not do something about reducing the latter category, we are in desperate trouble. Indeed their very existence explains why, in the face of massive youth unemployment, employers are continually going on about skills shortages, to fill which they recruit overseas. Having spent decades in staff recruitment, I know that this is far from a new problem. However, we can no longer afford the luxury of ignoring it. Saying “Well, that’s up to the parents” is a death wish.

      • Kennybhoy

        “Don’t you think the Gates of Hell are open enough already?”

        Are you fracking serious? Do know what mikewaller means by “the gates of Hell”?

    • Kennybhoy

      “Doing otherwise would be to open the gates of Hell.”

      Amen.

  • Jody Taylor

    People will support Pegida. Watch this space. I’ll be in Hamburg on 23 February and much of the rest of Germany after the middle of March so I’ll watch carefully – particularly in Leipzig.

    • Sunshine

      As weather warms up, I think more people will join the movement.

      • Guest

        They are dead as dodos. Dream on, dreamer!

  • Tox66

    Snobs were quite in favour of Nazism, many of them, and a rank and rampant snob gave Britain’s aircraft carrier technology thinking them frightfully superior, martial chaps. And look how that worked out.

  • Blindsideflanker

    It seems like Germany is a 5 -10 year behind us. You have the first signs of people objecting to mass immigration and the EU project, this the establishment will hound out of existence, but only for a short time before it makes a come back and starts destroying them in elections.

    • Zanderz

      Or 5-10 years in front – I’ve not seen 25k people turn up to a anti Islamisation rally here. Thinking of it, I’m sure any such march here would not be allowed due to ‘race hate’ laws (or our courts interpretation of them).

      • Blindsideflanker

        We had the BNP and EDL who took to the streets and though the numbers were small and shouted down, it gave indication to an unease in the general population that wasn’t getting reflected in politics. Though the BNP and EDL leadership got decapitated, as we are seeing in Germany with Pegida, it didn’t change the political unease within the electorate, here Germany has a similar political force developing in AfD as we had with UKIP, so Merkel had better watch out.

        • Zanderz

          I don’t know if Tommy’s still involved with Quilliam, his new era twitter (@TRobinsonNewEra) seems back to business as usual. Good to see. I always though he had a good understanding of the issues without ever going down the reactionary route.

          • Zanderz

            Interestingly PEGIDA seem to be having a leadership crisis as well. (Yesterday’s Independent)

            http://t.co/n5HaGlKtwP

          • Guest

            Tommy Robinson is a police grass.

          • vieuxceps2

            Ah, the poisonous lefty rides again!

        • Guest

          Nick Griffin has his head chopped off…… Or was that the head of his penis?????

          • Damaris Tighe

            Wow, what an intelligent, insightful commentator you are.

        • Fritz123

          Nobody knows what the AfD is in reality. It is a brainchild of the “German Harvard” aka Uni Bonn and much more “Atlantic” than anybody else. They needed voters and they took what they could get. They are just not “poodles” like Tony Blair, they also know how to say No! from time to time, but not very often.

    • Hamburger

      10-20 is more accurate.

      • Inglorious Basterd Nazi Scarer

        10 to 20 people turned up today to support the EDL and the NF in Washington, Tyne and Wear.

    • Guest

      Let’s play the weird paranoia music.

      • vieuxceps2

        No.let’s not “play paranoia music” to avoid facing reality.Let us for once consider what lies we are being told and face up to the inevitable takeover of Europe by Islam if continue we as we are.Your dribbling giggles will change to frightened acceptance as your new masters tell you to forget democracy and obey the Will of Allah. You won’t be giggling then lefty boy.

  • zanzamander

    World leaders and media houses all follow a lefty, pro-Islamist, global warming agenda. Although they might think differently, they all must speak the same and write the same. As soon as a new leader comes to power, if he/she does not want to get isolated and reviled in the media (e.g. Putin), they have to belong to this club and toe the line.

    The world now is a dangerous place, on one hand we have terrorists who want us all to subjugate to their ideology, we have on the other hand, politicians and media who make excuses for them and will not let us stand against them.

    • John

      They’re pro-Islam because of Saudi Arabia’s vast amounts of wealth and oil. They’re all as far right as you, so rejoice.

      • Guest

        Bigots like yourself are pro-ignorance.

        • Damaris Tighe

          Bigots like yourself are ignorant.

          Also a coward to avoid replies going to your inbox.

        • Mister Rible

          if only everybody was as non bigoted and tolerant as you peaceful muslims

  • Ali

    You haven’t made any mention here of the violence of the anti PEGIDA movement, the very serious violence at the last rally was all caused by the antis. Snobbery may be part of the problem but throwing a petrol bomb at a policeman is not an act of snobbery, barging down the barriers and breaking the lines of the riot police in order to go and beat up the peaceful protesters,some of them middle class grandparents,on the PEGIDA march is not an act of snobbery. Snobbery refuses to report the violence of the PEGIDA opposition, don’t join in with it yourself and don’t give credence to the idea that the PEGIDA supporters are easily dismissable, working class peasants: democracy doesn’t give a damn about class.

    • Icebow

      I suppose all European nations have their equivalent of our UAF thugs.

      • Guest

        How’s things in nazi apologist land lol!

        • Guest

          which land are you talking about exactly?

          Syria – where muslims gas people?
          Iraq – where muslims gas people?
          Pakistan – where muslims disfigure little girls with acid?
          or any other islamic cesspit?

          • Icebow

            Please do not feed the trolls!

      • WTF

        If the establishment creates an environment where protest groups of any persuasion can survive and grow then that is what happens. Only history in hind sight will judge who was right or wrong.

        The UAF are just an extreme version of all three left wing parties at Westminster as they have been given carte blanc by the establishment to attack protest groups like EDL in the same way as Cameron attacks UKIP with his fruitcakes and loons comment. There really is little difference between the UAF and the main parties as they all have fascist elements to prevent debate and enforce the party line. The only difference is the UAF resort to violence as well as hate to enforce their control whilst Cameron just uses words.

      • Nicholas I

        Funded by the same tribe.

    • Gwangi

      I do so wish we had a UK version of PEGIDA. The EDL is far too skinheady; we need an anti-Islamophilia movement which incudes liberal-minded people who are not ‘useful idiot’ appeasers of Islamofascism.

      • big toff

        I used to think that too. But I’m starting to wonder after watching this…https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=GyzGayfI400

      • Guest

        The EDL are patriots. As are the NF and Britain First. Better still were the British Union of Fascists.

      • Nicholas I

        Pim Fortuyn and EDL – propaganda wings of the same tribe who bring in the destructive populations they impotently moan about.

      • DonnaTxx

        There IS a Pegida UK, check them out on facebook.

    • Winston Smith

      The worst part of it is what utter cowards the Antis are: They are prepared to confront largely gentle middle-aged fellow Germans but they are too scared to confront the aggressive Islamists spoiling for a fight. Absolutely contemptible.

      • Nicholas I

        Yes. They’re also afraid to attack the hate-mongering talmudic supremacists who dominate the parasitic, usurious banking rackets.

  • Zanderz

    What all protest groups need is a good orator, a good public speaker, a leader who can engage with the people. We’re very lucky to have Nigel Farage to sensibly voice the concerns of the people.

    • Kennybhoy

      “What all protest groups need is a good orator, a good public speaker, a leader who can engage with the people.”

      The last time the Germans had one of those, well…

      • Hamburger

        You mean Willi Brandt?

        • Kennybhoy

          lol! 🙂

  • This is a backfiring of the tyranny of the majority. It has become so frowned upon and un-PC to want to preserve local culture that it has become very difficult to express that view at all. You are pushed to the outside of political discourse, told you’re a racist and ignored

    What is left for people other than join more extreme groups?

    • John

      Preserve local culture. I’m old enough to remember when towns looked different, had their own character, when Englishness was a thing, when Britishness was too. McDonalds, Poundland (and the fifty knock-off versions of Poundland), Primark, KFC etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc – that’s the local flavour on offer everywhere now, every town, every city. Staring at Iphones – that’s personality now, in every town, every city in the West. It might be shit, but you don’t need to tattoo a swastika on your face and abandon all decency. If the neo-liberal extremists from Thatcher onwards hadn’t sold us out then maybe we’d have some culture left.

      • That sort of comment is precisely what I mean by tyranny of the majority. All I said was “preserve local culture”, what’s that got to do with being a fascist or a Nazi?

        As long as no-one can represent those who quite like “Britishness” without being labelled a racist or a Nazi, you’ll find reasonable people having to side with more extreme elements overlooking the violent elements of them.

        We should be able to have a reasonable discussion without it being reduced to name calling. When that happens, you won’t need Pegida.

        • Inglorious Basterd Nazi Scarer

          How many reasonable people had enough of the political status quo, and joined Hitler and his murderous regime?

          • That’s exactly my point. We should be bringing those otherwise reasonable people into the political fold, not labelling them and forcing them into the arms of extremists.

            You’re not going to convince people simply by telling them they’re wrong. You have to win the argument. Nothing in your comment is going to do that.

          • Icebow

            I rather suspect that this may be the troll ‘Telemachus’ under a different name; certainly a similar style. Best not fed.

          • vieuxceps2

            I suppose that racist has become so threadbare that the grunting lefties have turned to Adolfs and Nazis for their intellectual ripostes.Odd that they don’t choose Stalin or Mao or Pol Pot or any of the countless tinpot dictators who’ve caused such harm. Wonder why? Is it ‘cos they’s Lefties?

    • Inglorious Basterd Nazi Scarer

      How about joining the New British Union, matey? They were some suave uniforms, and are into BDSM behind closed doors.

    • WFB56

      You can try to reform from within. Join the Conservative or Labour party and work for change within the existing structures. Cameron and Milliban can be replaced and we’ll all be better off for it.

  • Mister Rible

    PEGIDA is the only thing that stands between the sure-coming islamization of Europe!

    Not only do they point to the lowest common denominator of most misery, warring, bloodshed and general cesspit-ness in this world, they also accuse LUGENPRESSE (lying press) for having helped perpetuate all of this.

    PEGIDA needs to be supported and exported, not silenced.

    • Icebow

      Yes, they must prevail, and the cultural traitors fail.

      • Inglorious Basterd Nazi Scarer

        Fourteen words, eh????

      • Guest

        Icebow – a new cider for BNPers to swig, made from the makes of Diamond White.

    • Fritz123

      Incredible what you project into that “movement”.

      • Mister Rible

        how is it projection, if it’s growing and being talked about internationally?

        • Fritz123

          Projections are discussed as a new reality in Germany. A German UKIP. There is nothing comparable. There is some opposition against “political correctness” in the media, but this topic is allready dead and really boring. People can think and say what they want but they have to say something. Until now there is not one political idea.

          • Mister Rible

            oh i see what you mean, well, give it a minute

    • Inglorious Basterd Nazi Scarer

      Hi Ribble. Europe will never be majority Muslim, except in your paranoid little far right world.
      Pegida is dead. I am in fits of laughter.
      Right, back to the nazi hunting. I will leave you to get back to UKIP and start foaming over gay marriage.

      • Mister Rible

        PEGIDA is dead?

        huh.

        I guess going from 200, to hundreds of thousands, in less than 3 months, must be a mirage…….

  • Dogsnob

    The Idiot’s Guide to Constructing a Civil War

    • Jody Taylor

      That would be ludicrous if it weren’t simply possible and frightening.

  • stephengreen

    Good essay, but the rarely heard from Mr L, should have considered making it at least double this length. Just laying the foundations and then he stops abruptly. How exactly does he see the ‘existential’ issue and the ‘self-destructive’ tolerance, being best overcome in Germany (or anywhere else for that matter)? His beat, Russia, while having a conservative, of sorts, in charge, is still suffering exactly the same demographic, possibly religious, threats as Western Europe.

  • The Grizz

    Europe is finished.

    • Guest

      Your brain is finished, unless you stop being a nationalist.

      • Mister Rible

        if you don’t like the path Europe is taking, pls feel free to make your way to a cesspit of your choice, I’m sure you belong to those who have over 50 to choose from: all equally filthy, where everybody is slaughtering everyone else

        bye bye

  • Guest

    .

  • Fritz123

    There are a lot of projections in this article. Pegida is not a political power. Dresden is not London anyway. There is a lack of political understanding, thats all.

    And yes, the PC of the former GDR has reunificated with the PC of the West as well and if we look closer there is no difference. The reason is obvious. We cannot have
    18 % Nazi voters like the French — after the war.

  • Sunshine

    And now, German students from five schools (totaling 1,000+) are now claiming they were forced to take part and hold signs in the anti-PEGIDA counter-demo. Merkel hard at work, trying to find whichever way to dissolve PEGIDA.
    I never believed for one minute PEGIDA had an ISIS threat, this was pure Merkel.
    Fortunately, splinter movements popping up everywhere in Germany, such as DUGIDA (Dusseldorf), LEGIDA (Leipzig) and others.

  • evad666

    Ha the joys of Europe’s illiberal left and their Islamist allies.
    Does anyone know which mosque Frau Merkel attends?
    Here we should be told which mosque the leaders of the Lib,Lab, Con attend is it a hotbed of Wahhabi or Deobandi influence?

  • James Mayer

    Tick, tock…

    • Guest

      says the Adolf Clock.

      • James Mayer

        but-names-will-never…

      • vieuxceps2

        “the Adolf clock”-? The Isis Timepiece rather.

  • It is quite easy to look at fog and miss the bigger picture.

    The bigger picture here is quite clear.

    The average person is unhappy to see the fabric of society being torn apart by Islam and its followers.

    Every place on the face of the earth where Islam comes in contact with non-Muslims there is strife. The average person can see this.

    PC BS is just fog.

  • Inglorious Basterd Nazi Scarer

    EDLers do not want foreign nationalists doing their thing for them. Germany has Pegida, the UK, the EDL and the NWI / NEI.

    • Guest

      Footsoldier Spokesman, EDL Divisional Leader Tommy English said today he did not want a load of Germans queering his pitch,

  • global city

    I propose a second ‘Godwin’s Law.

    He who engages the ‘racist’ (and it’s equally flaccid equivalents) weapon is automatically considered to have forfeited the debate?

    Why not?

  • Mister Rible

    i guess trolls coming here hysterically, wetting themselves, and screaming ‘Nazis’ at everyone, only shows that PEGIDA is working ; )

  • Mister Rible

    funny to see the hysterical trolls coming here screaming ‘Nazis’ at everybody

    shows PEGIDA is doing well

  • Winston Smith

    …”so the German political-media-artistic establishment engaged in a truly hallucinatory act of double-think when it continued to denounce Pegida for exaggerating the Islamist danger, while approving the cancellation of the previous week’s march because of a credible threat that the movement’s leader would be assassinated.”

    I can hardly believe my eyes. I am British but live in Germany (Berlin) and have seen this up close and in person: It blows my mind. To be so disconnected from common sense and reality to do this and keep a straight face makes me question my own sanity sometimes. It is the worst kind of doublethink and yet absolutely nowhere in Germany have I heard this opinion voiced, thank goodness for the spectator!

  • markskoda

    I was in Dresden a couple of weeks ago and also Leipzig. Each city has a sizeable Muslim population, although nothing near Berlin’s level. Talking to ethnic Germans it is clear that they just do not want loss of the German identity. Many relate to the former DDR rather than the new Deutschland. They claim that crime is endemic in the immigrant community, also social security fraud and the overt display of differences by Muslims in areas of dress and refusal to speak German. They seem to be unsettled rather than frightened as if politicians have gone a step too far without a popular mandate.

    • WTF

      Sounds like the UK and the rest of the EU.

  • WTF

    When the ruling elite ignore peoples concerns, protest parties will always appear but it depends on how the establishment reacts to their concerns as to what happens next.

    WWII had its roots from the reaction to extreme austerity and hyperinflation in Germany when a leader emerged promising to bring self respect back to the majority. I am NOT trying to justify fascism or excuse what happened in Germany during the 1930’s but if modern leaders cannot learn from history, we are in for a very rough ride indeed. Its no good wringing our hands over the millions killed during WWII or just blaming one leader for all that happened as you have to look at the complete picture where others were equally complicit in setting the scene.

    Today, the majority of people in Europe & the UK feel marginalized due to the social engineering policies of political correctness, multiculturalism and diversity and the straw that breaks the camels back isn’t that far away. When they see reverse discrimination rampant, their living standards are falling whilst the banker get away with fraud & theft and they are subsidizing the encroachment of an alien culture and religion in their midst, people will rightly feel disenfranchised.

    In every EU country different types of protest parties have emerged or increased their support in recent years as we’ve seen from UKIP in the UK to Madame Le Penn, Golden Dawn or Pergida. The reasons for their success’s are all the same, namely unfair monetary conditions within the EU coupled with the sell out of the majority for an alien culture and religion. What comes next will probably differ from country to country and may be peaceful change or violent change, but change there will be.

    The establishment figures like Cameron, Hollande, Rajoy or Merkel are all in denial over the problems of the Euro just as they are in denial over the clear and present threat of Islam within our midst and they are behaving like rabbits caught in a cars headlights and are frightened to change direction. Give it 10 more years of the same, and change will be forced on these lame apologists and it may be forcibly enacted rather than at the ballot box, but change will come.

  • pp22pp

    The Israeli and Malays have done a pretty good job of unspilling it.

  • WFB56

    Angela Merkel’s supremacy on the European scene owes much to the German economy which she doesn’t understand very well, but even more to the mediocrity of the German political class that could elevate a woman of such limited capabilities to such an exalted role. Germany, of course, is not alone in this distinction.

  • Terence Hale

    Hi,
    “Confusion, snobbery and Pegida – a letter from Dresden”. Many political analyst over look something very fundamental with respect to Pegida, its not just a “volksbewegung” of the moment, it’s a result of a fermentation process over many years.

  • Ally Gory

    It appears to me PEGIDA is much the same as many other movements across the EU, whatever else it may claim to represent, it is saying to its country’s government “What you do, you do not do in my name.”

    Even governments where the vast majority of the population voted for someone else will regard their authority as a mandate to enact their every whim, irrespective of the likely outcome of a public consultation. When they do ask the public specifically, the response is rejected if it does not indulge the government’s whim. With so many voices raised in protest, perhaps European governments might survey the wreckage in Syria and consider what the eventual outcome of disenfranchising those you purport to represent could be. Yes, it can happen here.

    PEGIDA is a peaceful protest. If you refuse to listen and orchestrate brainless attacks on it, you will ferment anger. If nothing else, Frau Merkel, that should tell you how fit you are to govern. If you were honest, which I do not believe you are, you would be ashamed of your words and actions.

  • Lawrence in Arabia

    Europe is heading towards a major crisis thanks to mass third world immigration. The elites, drunk on Politically Correct ideology, seem blind and endanger all of us.

  • rossco1111

    Just like the EDL and BNP, these movements always attract the ghastly white working/lower-middleclass scum. They’re all born-losers.

  • Karol Czenko

    One wonders whether there is any relevance to Germany’s ills in the fact that – in the ruling CDU-CSU alliance – only the CDU leader ever has a chance of becoming Chancellor. Mutti is obviously “mortally politically correct,” as the author rightly says. Would a CSU leader necessarily be the same?

  • John Andrews

    Charles Martel (‘The Hammer’) was a Frank (German) who defeated a great Muslim army and stopped the Islamic advance into Christian Europe, in 732 at Tours.

  • Nicholas I

    “she is tongue-tied and gauche when dropped into national TV” – so the “far right” is too left?

  • Nicholas I

    If Europe is such a cesspit of “racism” and so-called “islamophobia” and “antismitism”, why do all these hordes of unwanted aliens keep streaming and scamming and baggeing and wailing to get in, and why is it so hard to get rid of them?

  • Chr Fre

    I agree. They need more focus and a more clear program. Just “being angry about the system” does not change a thing.

  • foxoles

    “Quick as a flash, the presenter retorted, ‘Like you, maybe. Like me, maybe not.’ ”

    She should have answered, ‘Yes, you are right. You are not ordinary’.

  • Damaris Tighe

    Let’s unpick those empty slogans, ‘humanism’, ‘equality’, ‘tolerance’.

    ‘Humanism’: a vacuous love of every human being without discernment of friend or foe. Emotional blackmail.

    ‘Equality’: a vacuous respect for every culture & religion except one’s own, without discernment.

    ‘Tolerance’: a nihilistic acceptance of the unacceptable.

    • Itinerant

      Indeed- in the final analysis to stand for multiculturalism is to stand for nothing at all.
      It’s acolytes are vacuous and increasingly Orwellian.
      The speech Nicola Sturgeon gave after the Paris massacre is a testament to the hollowness of progressive thought- and included that other great progressive canard- DIVERSITY.
      She stood up in the Scottish Parliament to “reaffirm this Parliament’s commitment to a diverse and multicultural society”- , nothing to do with the RoP, “a perversion of that faith” , “millions…who adhere peacefully”, “in truth, terrorism has no religion…do not speak for Islam”- blah blah we must be secure “today Scotland is welcoming refugees from Syria”- blah blah “we should reflect once again that diversity is one of modern Scotland’s great strengths” “an opportunity for this chamber to support that diversity”
      http://www.snp.org/parliament_on_paris_attacks

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