Features

Brexit, George Osborne, and the art of post-factual politics

28 May 2016

9:00 AM

28 May 2016

9:00 AM

Sir John Chilcot’s report into the Iraq invasion, due to be published on 6 July, is expected to highlight the novel structure of government created by New Labour following its landslide victory of 1997. As Tony Blair started to make the case for war, he began to distort the shape and nature of British government in several ways — the most notable being the deliberate debasement of the traditional idea of a neutral, disinterested civil service.

Under Blair, civil servants were told to concern themselves less with the substance than the presentation of policy. They were informed that their loyalty lay more with the government of the day, less with the British state. This had dramatic effects. Some officials (especially the ambitious ones) abandoned the Whitehall tradition of caution, astringency and integrity. They ceased to treat information as neutral and value-free. Instead, facts became malle-able building blocks towards the creation of a wider ‘narrative’ to be discarded or rearranged to fit the requirements of the party in power.

All of this allowed Tony Blair to mis-represent the intelligence on the threat posed by Saddam Hussein. This meant that Britain could invade Iraq on the basis that Saddam presented a devastating threat to his neighbours — even though we possessed no evidence at all to prove it, and every reason to doubt that this was true.

When David Cameron became Prime Minister six years ago, there was every reason to suppose that he would end the abuses of the Blair/Brown era. Cameron made a show of reinventing cabinet government, and boasted that new systems were in place. For the first few years of the coalition, there were grounds for believing that these assurances were sincere. This is no longer the case. David Cameron and his chancellor, George Osborne, have returned to the cronyism and abuse of due process which defined the Tony Blair years.

Lying and cheating are, once again, commonplace in the heart of government. There was a particularly ugly example at Prime Minister’s Questions last month. Cameron named Suliman Gani, an imam from Tooting, as an ‘IS supporter’ in order to damage Sadiq Khan, Tooting MP and Labour candidate for London mayor, by association. Several senior Tories repeated the baseless slander in the weeks that followed. They, and eventually the Prime Minister himself, were obliged to utter grudging semi–apologies — but only after the mayoral contest was over and the damage had been done.

Yet more troubling was Cameron’s widely ridiculed appropriation late last year of 70,000 ‘moderate’ rebel allies to make the case for bombing Syria. In his speech to Parliament, the Prime Minister invoked ‘our independent Joint Intelligence Committee’ to justify his controversial figure. This was a blatant repeat of Tony Blair’s politicisation of the same committee 13 years ago.


The alarming truth is that Whitehall integrity is in collapse again. Cameron, who once boasted that he was ‘heir to Blair’, has taken and refined the techniques of dishonesty that New Labour invented. This time, however, the most serious instances of this abuse do not involve foreign intelligence. They concern Britain’s relationship with the European Union.

During the run-up to the Iraq invasion, intelligence officers would hand ministers an estimate, an allegation, a straw in the wind, in certain cases (the 45-minute claim being the most notorious example) an outright fabrication. Tony Blair’s office would then bless it with the imprimatur of a government assessment, usually employing vague wording — in the hope that the media would repeat and then amplify the message.

Cameron and Osborne have become masters of this kind of politics. ‘We’re paying down Britain’s debts,’ said David Cameron in 2013. This was a straight lie: the national debt was soaring as he spoke. ‘When I became Chancellor,’ observed Osborne last year, ‘debt was piling up.’ True —  and he has been piling it up ever since, even now rising by £135 million a day. This kind of deception works: polls show that only a minority of voters realise that the national debt is still rising.

George Osborne has now converted the Treasury into a partisan tool to sell the referendum, exactly as Tony Blair used the Joint Intelligence Committee to make the case for war against Iraq. Before becoming Chancellor, Osborne was critical of Gordon Brown’s Treasury, and rightly so, because it had been so heavily politicised. He rightly stripped the Treasury of its forecasting function and created an independent Office for Budget Responsibility — an encouraging sign that he was determined to avoid the culture of deceit which was such a notable feature of the Brown/Blair era.

It is therefore very troubling that the Office for Budget Responsibility has not come anywhere near the two Treasury dossiers that make the case for the EU. It’s easy to see why — they would point out straight away that the Chancellor has been engaged in fabrication. For example, let’s take a hard look at how he induced Treasury officials to endorse his central claim that families would be £4,300 ‘worse off’ if Britain left the European Union.

The main technique that Osborne used was his conflating GDP with household income — and referring to ‘GDP per household’, a phrase that has never been used in any Budget. As the Chancellor used to argue, GDP is a misleading indicator which can be artificially inflated by immigration. Immigration of 5 per cent may well raise GDP by the same amount, but nobody would be any better off. ‘GDP per capita is a much better indicator,’ said Osborne when newly in office. He made no mention at all of GDP per capita when launching the Brexit documents published by the Treasury.

Then, in an audacious innovation not even deployed by New Labour, Osborne and his allies have been briefing the media and touring the broadcasting studios before releasing the Brexit documents, even under embargo. This means that journalists cannot challenge his headline figures and calculations. By the time the documents have been published, Osborne (or, in this week’s case, Business Secretary Sajid Javid) are nowhere to be found. This technique makes deception easier by keeping scrutiny to a minimum.

Had a company director presented a prospectus on the London Stock Exchange on the same basis as the Treasury case for Brexit, he — and his chairman, his accountants and advisers — would risk prosecution for fraud. The government insists on the truth being told in the City, demanding standards it never applies to itself. To mislead investors about a pension is quite rightly illegal. But to mislead taxpayers about the trajectory of the national debt, or the real economic effects of leaving the European Union? Well, all’s fair in love, war and politics.

This is all bad luck on Tom Scholar, who has just taken over from Sir Nicholas Macpherson as permanent secretary to the Treasury. His first task in his new role has been to perform the same function for Osborne and Cameron which John Scarlett (as chairman of the Joint Intelligence Committee) carried out for Tony Blair. If anything, Scholar’s dossier is even dodgier than Scarlett’s.

But the same questions need to be asked in each case. Were there any protests from Treasury officials about the blatant politicisation of their department? If not, why not? What instructions were issued from ministers and special advisers? Why did civil servants agree to get involved in a political project of this kind?

The truth will doubtless come out in the end — but once the referendum is over, just as the truth about the Iraq dossier became known only after war was declared.

This level of deception has become normal in Cameron’s second term. Take jobs. During the election the Prime Minister claimed he would create two million new jobs in the life of the new parliament. We hear no more about that now. The forecast in the last Budget was 1.1 million jobs before 2020. Or take immigration. Cameron said he would bring it down below 100,000 a year. Yet the topic was never even raised in the Brexit negotiations — almost certainly this manifesto pledge was dropped at the insistence of the German chancellor, Angela Merkel. Indeed, the Prime Minister’s entire referendum strategy now stands exposed as a monstrous deceit. On seven separate occasions, Cameron and Osborne insisted that they would rule nothing out and were open to backing Leave. These claims were exploded when the Daily Mail revealed that the Prime Minister was involved in secret negotiations with business leaders to support a Remain vote. And what of his pledge in the last Tory manifesto to ‘insist’ that EU immigrants would not be given benefits until they had been here for four years? Or that UK benefits would not be paid for children living abroad? He did not mean either pledge, as his renegotiation shows. The Tory manifesto itself now looks like a dodgy dossier.

Lies at the top have set the tone for mendacity below. The Education Secretary, Nicky Morgan, has implausibly claimed that Inter-railing across Europe would become more difficult. Environment minister Rory Stewart suggested that endangered animals would become extinct, and trade minister Anna Soubry claimed on Any Questions? that all exports to Europe would ‘go down to almost absolutely zero’.

The Iraq War showed how easy it was for New Labour politicians to abuse the government machine. Their techniques have been reinvented by Cameron and Osborne. Like Tony Blair and Alastair Campbell in 2003, David Cameron and George Osborne seem not to believe that their arguments, honestly expressed, are strong enough to win the day. They are so determined to win the vote that they are preparing to do so on the back of a series of fictions: that the economy will submerge into recession; that World War III might break out; that family incomes will be slashed etc.

This involves an attack not just on truth but on democracy itself. Citizens have a right to form a fair and balanced judgment, and are therefore entitled to be informed about their political choices. Lying disempowers and therefore debases those who are lied to. Politicians who lie to voters deprive them of the ability to reach a well-informed decision. In doing so, they convert them into dupes.

That is what Tony Blair and New Labour did to take Britain to war in 2003, and what Osborne and Cameron are doing to keep Britain in Europe in next month’s vote. This is not just morally wrong, it is politically disastrous. Cameron has said that he wants to settle the European issue once and for all. He can only do that if he makes a fair and honest argument.

Peter Oborne is a columnist for the Daily Mail and author of The Rise of Political Lying. His Not The Chilcot Report was published this week.

Subscribe to The Spectator Australia today for a quality of argument not found in any other publication. Subscribe – Try a month free


Show comments
  • John Andrews

    Neither the opposition nor the BBC is holding the government to account, so it can lie, lie and lie.

    • Atlas

      The BBC is the state. Its arguably one of the most perverse creations our authoritarian government has concocted. We are forced, under threat of prosecution, to pay for our own brainwashing through the license fee.

      • CheshireRed

        Some of us refuse to be cowed by such brainwashing, and decline to pay for it either.

        • Sunset66

          Look some of you need your brains washed .

          • Father Todd Unctious

            Tamerlane needs his potty mouth scrubbed with bicarb’.

      • Sunset66

        You mean the organisation that does the great British bake off or whatever?
        Yup the BBC is full of hard faced Stalinists plotting the brainwashing of the people with a political agenda.
        I suppose you want Fox News or Sky owned by that politically neutral family
        But you think tax is theft.

        • njt55

          Stalin was a hard left, autocratic baker. I thought everyone knew that.

        • somewhereinthesouth

          No property is theft apparently .
          The BBC of course it is not full of Stalinists but apparently “reasonable” people who generally peddle centre left establishment line which is the unvarnished truth. Anyone who disagrees with their line is verging on mad – either in need of therapy or education or basally a blasphemer [ i.e. denier of the truth }.
          The mantra goes something like this : internationalism is a good thing because boundaries are arbitrary and whats not to like about peace love and harmony between us [we are all brothers etc ], peace at any price is always better than war or the threat of it , the UN can never be bad because basically it is concerned with peace, curing disease and poverty relief ; state spending and bureaucracy are good – because its intended to be so , climate change is scientifically proven and is the greatest threat to the world [ and even if its not, we must take precautions ], we in the UK are responsible for the world’s poor even if many of their governments are corrupt or badly run, foreign aid is good because it is intended to be so , we in the west should apologise for government actions often taken hundreds of years ago , actions which weren’t considered wrong then but are now judged by TODAY’S standards , the EU is basically good because it was set up to avoid war and bring us all together as ONE people united in friendship ; people who oppose excessive immigration or Islamic ideals are near racists [ NB all cultures are equal even when they manifestly aren’t ] , the NHS must always be a good thing because its free and for everyone [ incl foreigners ] and its full of managers , doctors and nurses who are basically there to do good and such people would never allow self interest to interfere with their jobs ; the BBC should not report on matters or views which might encourage the “wrong” thinking [ or if they do such ideas must be ridiculed as selfish or bad ], the Palestinians are all oppressed by nasty Israel , Hamas are OK and firing of rockets is OK as their intention is to “free” the oppressed [ the means and outcomes of their actions therefore don’t matter ], teaching is not about imposing views or facts [with the exception of the state sponsored agenda such as environment and climate change of course] other it is a voyage of self discovery and a process of personal empowerment where everyone’s a winner […exams or learning of facts are inconvenient at best ] ,…..

          In other words the bottom line is this – if you are trying to do “good” then by definition any organisation nor individual IS good , even if the means they use is not or the outcomes of their action sand endeavours are one of failure. Conversely “self interest” or helping ones own family or nation is bad because its selfish and possibly unfair . Guilt is a another important part of the received mantra ……..The left has got away with that line so often and was unchallenged – it and its apologists have reputedly refused to accept that the Soviet Union , Communism and Maoism for example were actually impoverishing and indeed oppressing the very people is claimed to be helping ……..of course theres more than one way of skinning cat .

      • Marvin

        That’s precisely why Conman Cameron ordered and blackmailed Whittingdale not to upset the BBC by making them fend for themselves.

      • somewhereinthesouth

        The BBC believes its own propaganda – hence it is not biased. QED and Catch 22. Welcome to ” Brave New World ” and the thought police

    • Blindsideflanker

      The BBC is part of the lie, they make very little attempt to hide their allegiance.

      This morning we have had the BBC pronounce on the migration figures due out today. No mention about the environmental devastation that this population increase will create, let alone any mention of the impossibility to cater for all these millions of people. But the BBC has decided to give us the benefit of its wisdom by saying that even if we leave the EU, there is no hope that this tide of humanity can be stopped. How do they know? They have made a judgement on a future Governments actions. This is similar to the judgement they made about the likes of Hungary putting up border fences to migrants, which they also said was a hopeless act, though now proven to be very successful.

      But where as the BBC hasn’t had any problem wading into the EU referendum debate against Brexit , gleefully rubbishing the Brexit case, they have been remarkably reticent about rubbishing the economic lies being made for the Remain case.

      • Andrew Cole

        The BBC are pushing that migration is level and not up and that the increase is due to less people leaving. They are spinning the government line for them.

        There is no mention however of if Cameron’s statement of 2 million extra jobs in this parliament or of the recalculated amount of 1.1 million by 2020, how does that help the people of Britain?

        Obviously taking Cameron’s figures if we have 5 years of 333k (net) immigration which means 1.7 million people then that means that (ignoring birth or retirement rates) only 300k will be taken out of unemployment.

        More concerning is that if the last budget forecast was right then 4 years of 333k (net) immigration which means 1.3 million people then that means that we will be adding 200k to unemployemtn lists, probably 200k Brits to be replaced by migrants at that.

        So it just underlines that it is jobs that people are shouting about here and not “foreigners”. Just because people use limited language which may use the words “immigrants” and “foreigners” does not mean that clever folks can take those words to mean people are racist, xenophobic or bigoted. They are merely stating their worries about job in vocabulary that they know.

        So in 2020 if we vote to remain and 200,000 more are added to unemployment will the immigrants be to blame? No it will be the government’s policies and denials past and present that are to blame and when the plebs complain about immigrants and foreigners the majority of them are complaining about the policies that leave them without a job. Only a small proportion are racists.

    • Malcolm Knott

      I agree. And this whole business is a sad reflection of the calibre and integrity of politicians on both sides of the House. Too many of them are simply not up to the job.

      • Malcolm Knott

        The only bright spot in this is that maybe, just maybe, Chilcot is going to fire the Exocet missile that Blair, Campbell and Scarlett so richly deserve.

        • Marvin

          No matter what, that lot are untouchable by the law, and this gutless government would never offend members of the establishment no matter what.

        • Philip Fraser

          Dream on! What planet are you on man

          • Malcolm Knott

            I know, I know. Just a dream.

  • Rik

    Time to face the truth,the politicians who seek to rule,NOT to govern us treat us,the people, as enemies of the state.As far as they are concerned we are just there to be tax-farmed to pay for their vanity projects and to buy the next election.The Grandees of both major parties have nothing but contempt for the common man,hence they have no compunction in any lie,deceit or u-turn to have their way and to retain power.They are traitors to their people.

    • Garlands

      Your comment says it all!

    • Atlas

      Those presented as our rulers are merely gauleiters from the EU and the EU has at the core of its ideology an outright hatred for democracy. It was designed to control the people and progressively remove their liberty in order to achieve the tyrant’s fantasy of a forcefully united authoritarian Europe. That is an ideal that Cameron and Osborne are wholly committed to.

      • Pretty_Polly

        Hello,

        My name is David Cameron of Brussels and Panama and my aim is to destroy Britain as you know and love it.

        That is why I have admitted over 750,000 migrants and asylum seekers in the last 12 months alone, why I support eastern extension of the EU and why I have done virtually nothing to stop illegals entering the country and remaining forever. I will of course repeat these policies this year and every year during my premiership.

        Up and down the country, I am told that my plans are working perfectly as people find they are becoming ‘Strangers Where They Live’ http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/immigration/9831912/I-feel-like-a-stranger-where-I-live.html and I am delighted my Defence Minister, Michael Fallon, has told me that our towns and cities are being enrichingly ‘swamped with immigrants’ http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/oct/26/british-towns-swamped-immigrants-michael-fallon-eu

        As the ‘Heir to Blair’ and Blairmore, I am proud to be continuing the pro immigration policies adopted by my close friends in the Labour Party and to be able to develop such ideas to extinguish ‘Britishness’ wherever it may be found. That is why I have abolished many of the planning rules in order to build huge anonymous new towns and cities in what was the monocultural and unenriched English countryside http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/04/16/plans-for-thousands-of-new-homes-threaten-green-belt-areas/

        I will soon be holding the long awaited confirmation of my views and opinions that Britain should remain an EU member forever and I will personally ensure that the Remain campaign is full of lies, threats and propaganda to obtain the highly desirable Remain outcome, thereby wiping the floor with a blonde haired mop. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boris_Johnson

        As you will understand from the foregoing, I am extremely excited about the forthcoming abolition of Britain and ‘Britishness’ by my friends in the European Union who have assured me that a new name has already been decided for these very small inconsequential islands..

        Consequently, to further the re-writing of British history and the destruction of British traditions, they have chosen ‘EU Sector North West’ which must now be written below your postcode or your mail will no longer be delivered.

        God Save The President of the EU Commission ! Rule Jean Claude Juncker !

        Yours sincerely

        David Cameron

        Governor General EU NW – Designate.

      • Sunset66

        Oh please it’s all one big nasty conspiracy . It’s all been planned out in secret meetings
        I suggest it’s just human nature. Corruption in every country in every organisation
        If you leave the EU you still will have migration , still have politicians who ignore the people
        What you will have though is the accelerated decline of the UK .
        The Germans call us island monkeys a land of savages off the coast of Europe

        ” Gauleiters “. Truly pathetic

        • Philip Fraser

          Well we could always just call them a country of genocidal mass murders by way of retort, an insult backed up by more empirical evidence than the one they allegedly use about us according to you.

    • Pip

      Indeed and those who write spin and propaganda in the media are Traitors too.

      • Philip Fraser

        That’s right even Max Hastings came out for Remain today in the Mail , I am so disappointed in him, such a learned military historian who must know all about Britain’s desperate struggles down the centuries to remain a self-governing country and which eventually brought the rule of law and constitutional democracy to such large parts of the world. His article was one of such dreadful disingenuosness stating things like we could reform from within etc. God help us.
        I hope you’re happy with your 30 pieces of silver Max you traitor or are they blackmailing you as well. Or is it your desire not to betray your solidarity with those other upper-class schoolboys Dave and George. You should know it was this same misplaced class loyalty that allowed Philby et al to operate as traitors with impunity for decades. Anyway you’re not stupid ,wou know what you’ve done I pray to god your coscience bothers you you traitor.

        • Pip

          Hastings is a lying propagandist with zero integrity who deserves the same fate as those is defends and promotes through blatant deceit.

        • GraveDave

          Max Hastings. Incredible. The bottle of Hastings. ; – )

  • The Sage

    Has anyone questioned why the various “project fear” announcements from the IMF, IFS, Treasury, etc all seem to be announced on different days and one after the other? There appears to be a level of planned coordination here. I wonder from where. Any guesses?

    • Penny Henry

      On the day the immigration figures come out, a photo of a capsizing boat on the front pages…

    • sparrow-hawk

      New World Order Bilderberg group’s last meeting’s “next Action Plan for 2016 and beyond”.

  • Callan

    Several respondents to these columns have recently forecast that Gideon was waiting to unroll his coup de grace of a scare tactic, namely that if we vote “Leave” there will be massive reductions in welfare payments. That would get a significant proportion of the population, the serial welfare claimants and the unemployables clamouring to vote “Remain”. Lo and behold, the IFS trotted out this little gem for him yesterday. Amongst its other doom and gloom forecasts there was the matter of a 20 billion pound deficit which would lead to severe cuts, INCLUDING TO WELFARE. So expect to hear Gideon shouting this from the rooftops shortly and he can put on his best “not me guv” smug look as he does it, it comes from the IFS. God help the hard working indigenous population of this country.

    • Teacher

      They might be fearful, these benefit receivers, but will they actually get off their sofas to vote?

    • mathias broucek

      I know a lot of people who are welfare-dependent and most of them are planning to vote for out (if they vote, that is….)

    • Andrew Cole

      If that is his policy then he is way off the mark. Most welfare claimants wish they wreen’t welfare claimants and will all vote to leave because they want to work not claim.

      If anything it is yet another of Cameron/Osborne’s misreading of the situation because while it will be ignored by the working class who want work not welfare it will also be music to the ears of those more fortunate who want there to be lower welfare.

      • Philip Fraser

        That’s actually correct, welfare cuts are what this country urgently needs, that will increase the support for out. These idiots are so out of touch with public opinion they think that saying house prices will fall if we leave is an argument for getting people to vote to remain when so many young people can’t get on the property ladder.
        These upper-class, patronising, arrogant idiots have no clue about the public’s real feelings and aspirations, we don’t want to be welfare recipients, we don’t want our fellow citizens to be in that position, they were created in such numbers by Blair/Brown in the belief their votes would perpetually return Labour government

  • Sir Derek Trotter OBE

    Why not have a chat about the very secret role some members of the House of Lords have in our democracy. More Saudi arms, guvnor?

  • Fraser Bailey

    I have come to despise and distrust more or less all politicians, both here and abroad. But even I have been surprised by the sheer deceit and mendacity of Cameron and Osborne in recent weeks. I have never really voted, having worked out when I was quite young that our politicians tend to embody hideousness and hopelessness in equal measure. I did think I might vote in the referendum, but the evil of the Remain side is matched only by the uselessness of the Out side. So I don’t suppose I’ll bother.

    • Bob3

      Well they are not working for us and are no longer even pretending to.

      • Philip Fraser

        That is absolutely correct, our leaders are not working for us, that is becoming incraesingly apparent.- I live in Germany a lot of the time and even there there is an awareness growing that the evil old hag Merkel is not acting in her own country’s interests by BREAKING GERMANY’S OWN LAWS by inviting millions of undocumented illegal 3rd-world immigrants into their country.
        Same in the US where Obama issues a bizarre edict that school toilets have to be effectively mixed-sex now if any pupil self-identifies as transgender.
        It is all part of a wider agenda to confuse, demoralis and destabilise our coutries by , inter alia, weakenung our cultural identities and sowing gender/sexual confusion.
        Like homosexual”marriage” which seemed also to appear all over the world simaltaneously, clearly driven by a global elite agenda. NO-one voted for these unbelievable things yet they get foisted on us, just like EU membership. Please start the fight back VOTE LEAVE

  • Give our God Immortal Praise

    Our politicians have turned away from God, hence the fact they are now in league with Satan. Only the Holy Father can save us.

    • gunnerbear

      TELEX + TELEX + TELEX FROM: 000002 SATN PURG TO: EDS LDN PRESS GB MESSAGE AS FOLLOWS: Mr. Satan wishes to make it categorically clear that he has no affiliation to any political party nor does Mr. Satan support any individual politician at all. Mr. Satan wishes also to make it clear that he deplores the behaviour of modern British politicians. “Their behaviour is beyond the Pale. Frankly I’m disgusted with them and think they should be ashamed of themselves” said Mr Satan. Ends

  • gunnerbear

    Hellfire….you’d think Oborne had never heard of Sir Bernard Ingham….nor the days of Major’s govt. that was happy to see innocent men go to jail over the ‘Supergun’ until Clark stood up in the House, amidst the uproar over PIIs, and admitted that the entire case was b*****ks…….. …compared to that lot, Cast Iron & the Towel Folder are rank amateurs…..

  • John Booth

    Throughout this whole referendum campaign, Cameron has been guilty of the most disgraceful and deceitful behaviour. The so-called renegotiation was all stage-managed, all choreographed and ‘the deal’ produced on cue as a Chamberlain “peace of our time” document. Cameron continues to parrot his line “we want Britain to remain in a ‘reformed European Union’. The ‘deal’ he got will not ‘reform’ the EU, the EU will continue as before. Nothing will change. Cameron saying this deal will benefit Britain and increase our safety and security is a blatant, barefaced lie.

    The most disgraceful part of all this is the deceitful way Cameron is behaving attempting to hoodwink the citizens he has been elected to lead, represent and serve. He has lied to us for months and made up the most fantastic ‘disaster’ scenarios to frighten us into voting ‘remain’ all the time avoiding the ‘elephant in the room’ – if we remain in, we will eventually be subsumed by a United States of Europe government – the ultimate aim of the EU which is no longer even kept secret.

    Put simply, our Prime Minister does not want Britain to be an independent sovereign nation.

    Now we all know that politicians all lie and and rarely suffer for their lying and failures in office and like his predecessors Cameron will swan off to a comfortable life after leaving office. But he shouldn’t be allowed to do so. He should be punished for his wicked behaviour and lies over this campaign. I’m not a lawyer but it seems to me that there could be case made that he is guilty of treason. Is there not a lawyer with the appropriate knowledge, experience and the courage to attempt to make the case?

    It is one thing being incompetent – there have plenty of examples of incompetent PMs and Ministers before Cameron but it is another thing entirely when the PM lies, spends taxpayers money on a PR leaflets full of distortions in order to deceive the people he is meant to represent in order to coerce us into voting for losing our independence and sovereignty and be subsumed by a supranational government in Brussels.

    If that’s not treason, I don’t know what is.

    • Prof Raus

      Those tempted to vote Remain should ask themselves why Dave aided by the EU rushed the timetable. BY now all but the mentally ill should know that when a government rushes a vote it’s because it fears what’s coming will derail their plan.

      Remainers should learn from history and ask why and then they should vote BREXIT to avoid whatever calamity Dave is not talking about.

      • somewhereinthesouth

        Yes . its odd the Chilcot report is being delayed …[ I suspect that is because it might make the establishment look dodgy at a time when the government wants their current dodgy reports and dossiers to be believed ] .
        AND we haven’t heard a peep from Brussels about the “five presidents” report [ due to go live soon after the referendum ] which proposes amongst other things that Brussels should decide the level of corporate taxes here in the UK even though were are not in the Eurozone.. { What’s that if not a loss in sovereignty?]. The proposed EU army is also being put on the back burner for now . We wont be able to oppose ever closer union or any of these things if we stay because Cameron agreed to give up any veto in exchange for the dubious “reforms” he claims to have won in his so called “renegotiation”. Reform of the EU wont happen either . Don’t believe the lies – look to the history of the past 40 years – thats tells you all you need to know about the EU and its leaders .

        Share prices in Spain’s banks are today are tanking [ due to debts ] , Greece is still failing despite the ongoing and latest bailout , unemployment is still high in France and debts in Italy are still rising whilst growth is negligible and of course migrants and economic “refugees” are STILL arriving in large numbers only now via Italy. Migration into the UK is at its second ever highest level….over 300,000 and the population is to rise massively . Just because these things aren’t headlining in the staged managed media doesn’t mean its not happening ….. Don’t be taken in by the lies and manipulation of the “news” .

      • John Booth

        It all stinks. I’m now of the opinion that Cameron’s lies and exaggerations mean nothing to him, he knows he’s lying but hopes that enough ignorant fools will believe his scaremongering. He is only concerned about winning the referendum (because, imo, he has ‘promised’ Juncker and Merkel he will deliver a ‘remain’ decision) and he really does not give a toss about his personal credibility.

        I actually think he is a sociopath.

        • Philip Fraser

          No there must be more to it than just having promised foreign leaders to sell his country down the river……his insane behaviour suggests to me they have something on him and if he fails to secure an ‘In’ vote it will hit the press. Why else would anyone be in such a hysterical panic to keep his countrymen in such a damaging organisation as the EU. He is not a stupid man he must be aware of the effects of unlimited immigration from EU countries much poorer than UK, etc. I suppose he follows in the tradition of other great traitors from his own social class going right back to the 1930s, Philby, Burgess, Maclean , Blunt, etc.
          Britain has consistently been betrayed from that time by that social class of people in the Foreign Office paticularly but also in the wider arms of Government and political parties. I beg everyone to make the first strike back by voting to leave.

    • Stan Getback

      Good post, thank you, you have read my thoughts, heartily agree.

      • John Booth

        Thank you!

    • Marvin

      It is total surrender to a club full with crooks and buffoons because our modern career politicians would not be capable of running a bath without the support equally ignorant fools.

      • John Booth

        Absolutely! Cameron should be impeached.

    • rhys

      But no one in their right mind believes he obtained anything at all in the ‘renegotiation’.

      • John Booth

        Yes, but he’s banking on enough brainless and ignorant voters will believe him or at least believe his scaremongering. Despicable.

    • Philip Fraser

      That’s right what has happened to all the firebrand justice -seeking radical lawyers and journalists who in past decades would have exposed this, I even remember when Patricia Hewitt and Hattie Harman were crusading fighters of injustice now they’re just bought and sold members of the corrupt pro-EU establishment. John Pilger where are you now

  • John Carins

    Chillcott needs to be published now. Clearly its contents are toxic to the government and its case to remain within the EU. Iraq will be the ruination of Blair’s reputation. For Cameron, Libya and Project Fear will be his damning.

  • congreve

    MPs of all parties leapt to their feet to acclaim the Leader Monkey and vote for his Big Lie.

    The British People were not deceived, not for a moment, not at all. The military brass might have been, but they are ‘stupid, dumb animals’, as Kissinger remarked.

    Overall, the Chilcot conclusion should be “Why do you need the approval of Parliament at all, when you have Orders-in-Council creaking the military machine into action the year before?”

  • Tamerlane

    ‘Cameron has said that he wants to settle the European issue once and for all. He can only do that if he makes a fair and honest argument.’

    Cameron couldn’t give two hoots about ‘fair and honest’. He just wants to win, park the debate and move on, which is exactly what he will do. Just ask the Scots.

    • Frank

      Cameron will move on whatever the outcome. With luck, in due course, he will then serve prison time for his handling of this referendum.

  • Teacher

    I never believed for one second the 45 minute claim. I knew it was made up as soon as I heard it. I also know that the national debt is rising and that much of what Cameron and Osborne are saying about Brexit is made-up scaremongering. I can also recognise that the BBC has gone into overdrive to promote the Remain side’s views and trash the Brexit arguments.

    Reasonably well informed members of the public who have recourse to personal research and who are sceptical and rational are not going to be fooled. I am not sure, however, how far that gets us beyong being able to wield the one vote each that we possess. Still, at least we have that.

  • Central power

    Redwood has just announced that he (and his cohorts) will not accept the results of the referendum if we vote to remain. It sums up all these Brexiters wailings about democracy.

    • congreve

      John Redwood will make a fine PM.

      • Central power

        And then you woke up.

        • congreve

          He made a fine Welsh Secretary, but was somewhat wasted on the Welsh.

          • jeremy Morfey

            My hen laid a haddock; we had it for tea…

            If only he memorised those words!

          • The_Common_Potato

            You got it wrong. The real anthem is:

            My haddock, it drowned in the ocean,
            My hen broke a wing and a knee,
            I mangled them both in a grinder,
            And scoffed that fine dish for my tea.

            Cym back, Cym back,
            Oh come back my ‘Hennie’ to me (to me),
            Cym back, Cym back,
            My fish has been lost to the sea.

      • Lawrence James.

        Of a banana republic. Better still, he would be a good governor of South Georgia with Gove as his deputy.

      • Philip Fraser

        He should have showed more courage and integrity and resigned and sought re-election as UKIP, so should Gove,David Davis many other Backbench Torieswho have been Johnny come latelies to the Eurosceptic cause. Yes I know some of them in Parliament opposed Maastrcht 23 years ago but still they should not have left all the heavy lifting to get this ref to poor old Nigel Farage, he really is a hero for the courage he has shown and his steadfastness under heavy abuse and denigration from the MSM scum

    • Blindsideflanker

      If you think this referendum is a representation of democracy then you are somewhat deluded.

      • Central power

        Do the Remainers more votes than Brexiters?

    • PaD

      No John Redwood and others have been saying all along…its just that the rest of us have just woke up to find we had been immersed unknowingly in quicksand….its already up to our chins…BREXI

  • jeremy Morfey

    This seems another constituency that Brexit can call on.

    Regardless of the rights and wrongs of EU membership, a vote against the Government is a vote against all its methods, its lying, its transfer of public assets to cronies, its corruption and its game playing masquerading as parliamentary debate.

    A vote for Brexit is a vote against the Government, thanks to it taking such a partisan stand.

    If they lose this vote, I do not see how they have the right to govern this nation, and should resign and call a General Election. Whether or not the nation is capable then of arranging a better replacement is then a reflection on the incompetence of the nation, not of the Government.

    • congreve

      If they win this vote they have alike forfeited the right to govern this nation.

      • jeremy Morfey

        That all depends on the resolve of the Conservative rebels, along with opportunism of the Labour ones. They could negotiate terms for a National Coalition in return for mutual co-operation with a Vote of No Confidence.

        Don’t hold your breath though, today’s Labour rebels are practically indistinguishable from the Conservative Government, and Labour’s new mainstream is in no mood to co-operate with Tories, even those with the same mutual ambition to bring down this Government.

        • Philip Fraser

          That’s right the heirs to Tony Benn have even betrayed his legacy and memory, they’re just pathetic, only man of the left with any integrity is Galloway.

  • Prof Raus

    I’ve just had an e-mail regarding the petition “David Cameron is precluded from negotiations with the EU in the event of Brexit.”

    In part the reply states, “The Government believes Britain is stronger, safer and better off within a reformed European Union. The Prime Minister has secured a new settlement for the UK, which delivers on the Government’s commitment to fix the problems that have frustrated people in Britain.”

    Further on it states. “However, if the British people vote to leave on 23 June, they would rightly expect the process to exit the EU to start straight away. The rules for exit are set out in Article 50 of the Treaty on European Union. This is the only lawful route available to withdraw from the EU.” Later, “While the Government would secure the best possible deal for Britain in the event of a vote to leave, if we want full, meaningful access to the Single Market of 500 million people we will have to accept significant trade-offs. These include accepting the free movement of people, contributing to the EU’s programmes and budgets, and being bound by the rules of the Single Market without having a vote or a say over them.”

    There you have it. Dave believes that his deal (you know the one they don’t talk about) is as good as it gets and come what may Dave is going to go on waiving white flags until we are delivered bound and trussed into the US of E.

    This referendum is now about far more than BREXIT. It’s about freedom. Voting remain is voting for a dictatorship, one that Dave and his cabal are willingly seeking to impose.

    When we vote out it will be the duty of MPs to replace Dave and his EU stooge government, and for the new government to act as it should, in our interests not that of the EU..

    • Trailblazer10

      That is a complete lie.

      “if we want full, meaningful access to the Single Market of 500 million
      people we will have to accept significant trade-offs. These include
      accepting the free movement of people, contributing to the EU’s
      programmes and budgets, and being bound by the rules of the Single
      Market without having a vote or a say over them.”

      Plenty of countries trade with the EU without those appalling restrictions.

      • Prof Raus

        Yes, but white flag man Dave does not do democracy or common sense he’s a paid up member of the EU politburo.

    • congreve

      The duty of MPs, one-third of them given over to wummin and a further third to emasculated maledom, is to vote Parliament out of existence. Why is it needed, merely to rubber-stamp the decisions of Higher Powers?

      • Prof Raus

        As a stepping stone to a table in Brussels?

        • whyayeman

          “…. table ….”

          Don’t their type eat from troughs?

          • Marvin

            Snouts were not designed to eat with, they are designed to snort like they do cocaine with the same pleasure that their pockets are over flowing with the green stuff.

          • Prof Raus

            Table or trough, it’s a slurpathon at our expense.

  • Penny Henry

    The EU is a crock and everyone knows it. Vested interests would have us believe otherwise, obviously.

  • MummyofPrudence

    It’s a pity you didn’t mention the deal Cameron was cooking up with Tweedle Dum, the brother of Fatty Soames, before the referendum. Why has this, the worst piece of lying – misleading the house, been dropped from media attention? It is absolutely a resigning matter and one which, in normal circumstances, the media would worry away at like a dog.

    I read a review of a new book on Churchill last week. It showed his prevarication and dithering and weakness in 1944 and how Roosevelt really had to put a rocket up his behind (a most diplomatic one of course) to take the measures necessary to win the war. Of course as soon as Roosevelt was safely dead Churchill rewrote history and shed himself in a glorious light. It seems to me that political leaders have always been liars, but some of them are more convincing than others or circumstances happily favour the liar and the demos reassure themselves by believing lies as a kind of protection against admitting their folly in electing liars.

    I will leave you to draw your own conclusions about Churchill’s grandsons, gastric band Soames and his brother.

    • congreve

      Churchill was voted out in the ’45, but not for his prevarication and dithering.

    • Frank

      The book you mention is pure click-bait and appears to have no grounding in fact.

      • MummyofPrudence

        On the contrary it is based on years of research of previously un studied material, no doubt other historians will examine the same sources over the next few years and may well draw different conclusions.

        I don’t have any particular axe to grind, but politicians who rise to the highest office are by their nature egotistical, devious, self serving etc. Such characteristics did not appear first in TB. The demos are also rather prone to fall for the myth of the ‘one reat man’. We undoubtedly get the politicians we deserve.

        • Frank

          Sorry, but he can do all the “research” he wants, it is still not based on fact.

          • MummyofPrudence

            Your loyalty to the idea of Churchill is commendable. Have you written your own account of that period based on the same sources? On what authority can you make the categoric statement that something is fact or not. How can such a statement be considered more than your opinion?

            However, it is not this business with Churchill that I wanted to discuss. It is his hideous, fat grandsons who have abused their positions, living off his reputation (entirely deserved or not) and able to kick over the traces of their conniving with the present lying and dishonourable PrimeMinister in order to advance their own careers and insatiable greed (for tax payer’s money in the case of Tweedle Dum and a position of political power in a future pro ‘Remain’ Tory government and so on for Tweedle Gastric Band Dee) They are currently hunting down the person who leaked the letter which shows how Cameron mislead the house, because only their reputations matter to them, not the truth.

          • Frank

            I hold no brief for ex-fatty Soames. I hold no brief for Winston. This book is just desperate to carve a little sensationalist niche for itself. It is not based on facts. Agree with your comments about Tweedle Dee and Tweedle Dum

      • Lawrence James.

        Indeed: Churchill was full of misgivings and haunted by what went wrong at Gallipoli. Landings on this scale had not been undertaken since 1854 when Anglo-French forces came ashore on the Crimean peninsula.

    • Coromandel

      Churchill, unlike Roosevelt, understood the highly risky nature of the invasion of France. The Americans were pushing for invasion in 1943 when it was completely impractical, due to the lack of necessary equipment, in particular the correct type of naval vessels needed to land tanks in sufficient numbers.

      The invasion, when it did take place, was far from guaranteed success and indeed could have been a failure if a certain German Chancellor had allowed his generals to act as they wished. It was only incompetence that kept the strong german forces around Calais from being used and they could quite possibly have repelled the invasion had they been committed.

      People can rewrite history as they wish 70 years after the event, but as far as I am concerned, Churchill had a better understanding of the dangers and risks involved, was a far better strategist than Roosevelt, and without doubt was the driving force that allowed the war to be won.

      • MummyofPrudence

        Of course one can argue that the man who did the job and had the first hand experience is the one to believe, it is an argument I am usually inclined to favour. But you can also argue that the distance of time and a dispassionate examination of sources can reveal truths which the man writing history as the victor, from his own perspective, did not wish to draw to attention.

        A man who has been born to privilege yet undoubtedly worked hard and with good courage and principles on the whole to win the support of the general public, not just in his own lifetime, but by generations who did not themselves live through his years of leadership, deserves to be given the benefit of the doubt. But we should be wary of this myth of the one great man. It is always rubbish. When the myth is perpetuated by the man himself we should be doubly sceptical.

        I do not really compare the positive light Churchill sheds upon himself with the vast ego of Tony Blair, because to compare the two at all flatters the latter. But politicians who rise to high office must all be regarded as conceited, egotistical, and at best economical with the truth if not downright dishonest at times, in pursuit of their own place in history.

        The truth of human beings in charge of anything is the truth of muddling along, getting things wrong as often as right, covering things up, acting rather shabbily, sh*****g on each other, cooperating, being afraid of looking ridiculous, being afraid of making mistakes etc. Politicians of high rank are no better and are mostly worse than this.

  • Mr Grumpy

    So, Mr Oborne, Sadiq Khan does not deserve to be damaged in any way by his undisputed association with Suliman Gani?

    http://www.wimbledonguardian.co.uk/news/8451539.Worshippers_told_to_boycott_Ahma%20diyya_shops/

    • Frank

      This isn’t the most important point in this article, or current British political life!

      • congreve

        Mayor Khan is the future of British political life.

        • Frank

          Don’t be silly, he will just be absorbed into the grey blob like Keith Vaz

    • congreve

      Mayor Khan is fragrant, wafted by the perfumes of PC lotus blossoms.

  • Frank

    For once a very good article by Peter Oborne.
    It is a pity, but indicative, that none of the other members of the British press corps appear able to understand all of these points and set them out as clearly.
    If we are finally going to (metaphorically) hang draw and quarter Blair over Iraq, it is to be hoped that we will have Chilcot part 2 about the behaviour of this Government, these ministers and their civil servants over the Referendum.

    • congreve

      Peter Oborne is an exemplary muckraker and there is much muck to be raked. Can we afford to wait ten years for Chilcot part 2?

      • Frank

        Well, he may get quicker second time round, plus the topic is so much more straightforward.

    • sparrow-hawk

      For once? Oborne is one of the few mainstream journalists with both depth and integrity. Remember his slapdown of “that idiot in Brussels” while simultaneously presenting his book “Guilty Men” to another pinko CBI eurozealot in the Newsnight studio?

      • Frank

        Like all journalists, he sometimes over-reaches himself. It is therefore very nice to read an article he gets absolutely right.

  • Shieldsman

    Cameron’s second name should be Mugabe. He is using all the tactics of that dictator to coerce and frighten the Public into voting to remain in the EU.
    He and Osbourne have the no.10 Propaganda machine at full output, using the full panoply of government to manufacture unsubstantiated dire scenarios of the effect of leaving the EU.
    Dictator Cameron with the cooperation of Managements with interests in the EU is corralling the workforce and lecturing them on the fates that could befall them if they vote to leave.

    This morning I was advised – Government response to the petition. :

    The Prime Minister has secured a new settlement for the UK, which delivers on the Government’s commitment to fix the problems that have frustrated people in Britain.
    The Government believes Britain is stronger, safer and better off within a reformed European Union. The Prime Minister has secured a new settlement for the UK, which delivers on the Government’s commitment to fix the problems that have frustrated people in Britain.

    ‘Within a reformed European Union’, the confidence trick of the 21st Century!!! All based on three unfulfilled promises and no Treaty change – clever stuff Mr Cameron. Probably a bigger con than WMD.

    Those three little words ‘ever closer union’ remain in the Lisbon Treaty to which we are still signed up, the Brussels agreement made no changes there. It has taken eight German professors to set the facts right.

    There are four principal areas to the UK-EU Agreement.
    First, the provisions on economic governance and competitiveness. They generally do not go beyond vague commitments and otherwise merely confirm the UK’s non-participation in the eurozone banking union and future eurozone bail-outs. The Agreement also provides some
    assurance to the United Kingdom that further eurozone integration will take account of the special position of non-eurozone EU members, although, in turn, the United Kingdom agrees to sincere cooperation in facilitating further integration within the eurozone. As for the promises to improve economic competitiveness and reduce regulatory burdens, one only has to look back at the launch of the EU’s Lisbon Agenda in 2000 which was aimed to transform the EU into “the most competitive and dynamic knowledge-based economy in the world capable of sustainable economic growth with more and better jobs and greater social cohesion by 2010.” As the year 2010 approached, references to the Agenda were progressively expunged from EU documents and websites, and it now primarily survives on Wikipedia and in fading memories.

    Second, there is the symbolically important declaration that the UK is not committed to ‘ever closer union’. However, there is not a single important judgment where the European Court of Justice has relied on this formula as the exclusive legal basis for driving EU integration, and it is difficult to see how, in practice, the UK could in future escape the uniform application of future judicial activism in the EU except in areas where the UK already enjoys pre-existing opt-outs.

    Third, the Agreement envisages a legislative ‘red card’ for national parliaments. This is an innovation of potentially wider significance. However, it would only work if there were a mass revolt of national parliaments against their own majority governments.

    Finally, the new ‘emergency brake’ would limit access to welfare benefits by EU migrants for up to four years for individuals and seven years in total. The ‘emergency brake’ could potentially save the UK Treasury a few hundred million pounds in total, but there will be administration costs and the net benefits are difficult to quantify at this stage. Further, there is an open question whether time-limited differential access to in-work benefits would, in the long term, significantly reduce EU immigration into Britain. Most EU migrants come to work and not, primarily, to claim benefits in Britain. Moreover, once non-EU immigrants are naturalised in Germany and elsewhere, there is nothing to prevent them from exercising their right to free movement and cross the Channel legally, not illegally. Thus, even if the United Kingdom is not part of the EU’s common asylum policy, no country will be able to escape its consequences.
    (Note: It has yet to go before and be passed by the European Parliament).

    We believe that the EU needs the United Kingdom and her voice of reason, all the more at present when almost everyone appears to have quit reason. Whether Britain needs the EU just as much, is a choice for the British people. But it is not a choice between change and no change. Rather, it is a choice between leaving or remaining in an EU that would remain
    committed to further political integration, and there is nothing in the EU-UK Agreement that can offer the UK any permanent legal safeguards against being dragged along the path of further
    integration albeit with provisos and reluctantly. The Agreement cannot do so because it does little to reform the EU and does not exempt Britain from the jurisdiction of the Court of Justice
    and the uniform application of its pro-Union approach to judicial decision-making.
    Gunnar Beck, Barrister (EU law), Temple, London
    Dietrich Murswiek, professor (public and EU law), Freiburg

  • Ken

    An excellent and prescient piece by Peter. We expect truthfulness from journalists, from financial institutions and others and we have regulators in place to pursue them should they be found to be peddling fiction. We need the same for MP’s.

    With the exception of a handful of MP’s my default position is that an MP is lying until I see clear evidence to the contrary – what a sorry state our democracy is in.

  • Fraser Bailey

    The ‘return of political lying’?! When did it ever go away? Now, I accept that all politics and authority involves a large element of lying. It is one of the reasons I have nothing to do with politics and have never sought any form of authority. But Cameron and Osborne in recent weeks have, arguably, surpassed even Blair/Brown in terms of their deceit and mendacity.

    • njt55

      I think it’s a question of how big (and ludicrous) the lies have become since the Bliar years and in this campaign.

      • wibbling

        3 million jobs, £4000 poorer, EU has kept the peace….

        Cameron lies continually. He can’t help it.

  • Polly Radical

    Misconduct public office = 5 years maximum prison sentence.

    • wibbling

      Nah.

      Asset seizure. Take what they’ve stolen while keeping them working. Convert their salary to tax reductions for their employers – constituents. Make them serve.

  • Bristol_Boy

    Articles such as this continue to show that the political parasites that infest parliament and Westminster are thriving because of their lies, cons and scaremongering. It continues to work with the stupid, uneducated, gullible in favour of the liberal/leftist destroyers of Britain. For this reason Britain will still be consigned to further decline, destruction of society, population growth of unsustainable proportions, erosion of services, and subject to all of the corruption, bureaucracy and insanity of the EU with the full help and backing of the said venal political parasites.
    Those that endorse the continuation of EU subjugation will ensure that those of us who can see through the lies will suffer along with themselves, unfortunately they are too stupid to see the impending disaster, or know it is happening when it finally arrives.

  • Freddythreepwood

    ‘ Anna Soubry claimed on Any Questions? that all exports to Europe would ‘go down to almost absolutely zero’.’

    Making the case for positive discrimination and all-woman shortlists.

    • Andrew Cole

      She is Sandy Tostvig………..Exports will go down from 15….to ….1

  • davidofkent

    Since his inception as leader of the Conservative Party, I have regarded David Cameron as a charlatan. Until last year, I thought George Osborne was better than that. Clearly my latter opinion was wrong. They are both charlatans. The Referendum has revealed these people for what they really are – power-seeking snake oil salesmen. I hope that after the Referendum, the Conservative Party will deal with these people even if it requires a period of internecine fighting. The Conservative Party must rid itself of closet Lefties and become again the Party of sane, sensible people who want to put the health of the nation at the forefront of its raison d’etre.

    • a great many agree. likely they’ll struggle with future careers.

      • njt55

        Nah, they’ll get jobs in the EU, assuming we’re still in it, which, sadly, I think we will be.

        • Bristol_Boy

          Nah, the fools in Britain will still allow them to remain where they can inflict their damage, the same millions that inflict these venal parasites on us each GE.

      • Michael H Kenyon

        They will leave politics and cry all the way to the bank or EU organisation which employs them. A life of private jets and no more ungrateful riff-raff beckons. They are not going to be moving to Redcar, or queuing in the Tower Hamlets health centre.

    • A real liberal

      There have been some really unkind and extremely personal remarks made about Osborne. But all those of a slightly right-of-centre persuasion must by now be sadly coming to the same conclusion. He is a deeply and critically flawed individual. Maybe not as unpleasantly flawed as Brown, but we haven’t had such a long look yet. His defining characteristics seem to be less around competence, candour, courage, principle and leadership; more around spin, lying, weaseling, networking and ambition. He is not fit to lead, now or ever. (though sadly that may not disqualify him)

      • wibbling

        He’s a politician. He was a liar from the outset. A career politician who’s never experienced life outside politics. It was evident he’d be useless.

  • bengeo

    It looks like the only hope left is Corbyn’s “hard Labour” 🙂

  • Norton Folgate

    Political fibs? There’s a lot of it about today: http://bit.ly/1TYfMEr And Georhe has plenty of ‘previous’: http://bit.ly/24VO46k

  • Sunset66

    Ah the laughable idea that only the otherside lie.
    The idea that after brexit the UK will be free of politicians who are bought and sold and that they will be true public servants

    If the UK leaves the EU there will still be migration still be lying politicians we will just have left a market of 550 million
    It won’t be 1957 and some of you will still be racists wailing that the English nation is in jeopardy .

    • headonpike

      What and you think EU officials are incorruptible. Unelected and unremovable they are far worse. If you can’t see the danger of putting the country in that position then I’m at a loss.

    • Andrew Cole

      If there will be 1.1 million more jobs by 2020…………..Where will the 1.3 million immigrants over 4 years (333k x 4) be employed?

      • Trailblazer10

        Automation will remove vast numbers of jobs. There are estimates in the region of 10-12 million UK jobs lost over the next couple of decades.

    • PaD

      Or maybe just maybe,honourable democratic politics returns……after a clean sweep of the civil service and any org that have been part of the giant con trick the UK has been subject to for too many years.
      We know who they are.

      • Sunset66

        Who will be doing this sweeping then?
        The same people who will be marching immigrants to the docks ?

        • bengeo

          I am thinking of doing a new line in black shirts.

          What do you think, is it a goer?

        • PaD

          Those that ARE NOT Common Purpose trained for starters

    • I disagree with your suggestion non-eu countries are made uncompetitive when hoping to trade with EU members – in fact possibly even the reverse.

      • wibbling

        Then you don’t understand how the tariff wall works. Educate yourself.

        • Wot, the tariff wall you speak of makes ALL non-eu products + services wholly uncompetitive in the eurozone – so there’s no swiss watches, no korean cars, no chinese products, no new zealand lamb, no mexican foods and Iceland is impoverished due to not joining EU…. err, oh, wait, no not at all.

          Remove the bloating effects of the transfer of goods via deep EU ports and your utopian dream falls to dust: http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php/Intra-EU_trade_in_goods_-_recent_trends#Intra-EU_trade_in_goods_compared_with_extra-EU_trade_in_goods

          Even Germany is seeing trade growth with ROTW outstripping growth with EU countries plus its domestic trade (powerhouse?) is shrinking.

          They’re not alone. Top 8 EU countries trade figs exhibit similar trade curves suggesting support for a trade bloc with declining commercial influence.

          But hey, don’t take my word for it read Professor Patrick Minford’s work but I doubt you’d be able to absorb such anti-europa dogma.

    • Britains EU export opportunity is to 443 million so why not prioritise the billions residing in a bouyant commonwealth + thriving ROTW where there are emerging markets bigger than accession-seeking Turkey?

      • Sunset66

        Oh pollee didn’t you hear ? Australia just signed a major deal with China .
        It’s not really sensible to expect us to bypass the market on our doorstep to try and trade with Australia on the otherside of the world

        • Prof Raus

          It’s cheaper to bring a container from Hong Kong than from Bremen. Go figure.

          • Sunset66

            And your point is?

          • wibbling

            That the EU is a sclerotic, inefficient, expensive, far from ‘free’ trade barrier. Such command economies end in misery and poverty. Are you a bit slow, or do you just come here to troll?

          • Professor Patrick Minford explains why this is the case. An internet search of his work goes some way to demonstrating Brexit as a positive move.

        • Appraise yourself with UK/GB trade figures with EU and ROTW and recognise that figures for top eight EU countries demonstrate they, like UK, are NOT overly benefited by trade with a declining EU compared with ROTW;

          (e.g. German Export 6.2 percent rise to ROTW compared to 1.1 percent rise for eurozone but more worryingly domestic orders fell 1.2 percent.)

          It’s long overdue that hysterical bremainians admit nobody else talks about drawbridges or isolation and their headstrong utopian ideaology is destroying prospects for ordinary europeans.

          UK/GB is not only a net trade buyer of over £55+ billion but non-eu countries also trade with EU countries without finding themselves uncompetitive.

          Without a swift trade agreement between UK/GB+EU it is the eurozone that will struggle not Britain.

        • wibbling

          Why not? Oh! Because the EU won’t let us.

        • rhys

          Why should the fact that Australia ( or other markets ) are ‘on the other side of the world’ be in any way relevant ? The advent of container ships has reduced the cost of exporting goods to a trivial consideration.
          ( Hence, for example, Australian wine competes easily on price with French. )The internet means services can be provided to markets world wide with zero add on cost because of the distance of the market in question ( language spoken is probably more important and the world’s lingua franca is now English, n’est-ce pas ? ).

    • Bristol_Boy

      Migration can be managed, political parasites can be replaced (if the fools in the electorate finally wake up) and we will join a market of several billion, a win, win, win situation all around.
      But fools like you would, and probably will shackle us longer into this corrupt organisation.

    • wibbling

      No, it won’t. We will retain access to the EFTA. That market is also mostly poor and depends on our cash. The nations who don’t don’t like it either.

      But hey, don’t let truth get in the way of your obsessions.

    • WFB56

      Entertaining to see the adoption of the Obama style of perpetual straw men. Who has suggested anywhere at any time that Brexit would lead to the end of lying politicians?

  • gerronwithit

    Lies and deceit have supplanted service to or for the people.

  • Such matters are why EU is clamping down on scrutiny.

    A vote to remain means green-lighting a fascist regime hell-bent on war with russia.

  • Marvin

    Either the Holy Trinity of Cameron, Osborne and May are extremely one dimensional thinking buffoons, OR they have decided to run this country by ultra lies and deceit. In his speech to win the Tory leadership, he said he would build Titan prisons and lock up knife carriers for 5 years, never happened, reducing migration to impossible numbers, backing Brexit if he didn’t get a decent deal or treaty change but came away with his tail between his legs, WW3 caused by us lot, safety and security in the EU, but ignoring the 6000 Isis fighters that Europol said were running free in Europe and will soon be fast tracked so they could come to England, allowing 1000 ISIS scum to return to their cushy benefit filled lives from Syria, and Armageddon if we leave. Would you buy a used I-Pad from this lot?

    • NBeale

      But EVERY respected outside commentator including the IMF, the G20 and the IFS agrees with these so called “buffoons”. It is almost impossible to find a reputable economist who backs Brexit. The “economists for Brexit” include only 3 Professors and they are all at Cardiff Business School. Cardiff isn’t remotely in the top 100 universities worldwide on any ranking, and it’s Economics “department” is so bad that it doesn’t even have a Research Ranking in the 2014 REF.

      • WFB56

        You seem to think that the same people who advocated Britains entry into the Euro and a host of other absurd ideas have any credibility left, they don’t.

        • NBeale

          err – can you find any instance of the G7, G20, IMF or IFS advocating our entry into the Euro?

          • WTF

            IMF report of 2004 which although weasel in its wording was generally pro in the UK joining the Euro.

            “The effect of EMU entry on FDI (Foreign Direct Investment) is probably positive. Recent studies tend to find a negative effect of the volatility of the effective exchange rate on FDI flows—a particular case of the negative effect that macro economic volatility has on investment. In this light, U.K.membership of EMU would increase FDI, as it is likely to make the effective exchange rate more stable.”

            http://www.imf.org/external/pubs/ft/wp/2004/wp04116.pdf

      • Marvin

        I am afraid that you are easily fooled. Would most of these so called geniuses be the one’s who insisted that our world would end if we did not join the Euro some years ago. Can I assume that you think people like Ken Clarke, Tony Blair, Michael Heseltine, and I can go on and on, are infallible economists, Every priest, cleric, Rabbi and Imam will insist there is a god, are they 100% right or even 0.000001% close. The future of Britain is as mysterious as their predictions are bogus. Freedom from tyranny or perpetual enslavement to a stable of fools.

      • WTF

        And they got it so right previously over the 2008 crash and the PIIGS who crashed and burned as well as suggesting in 2004 the UK would benefit from joining the Euro.

        http://www.imf.org/external/pubs/ft/wp/2004/wp04116.pdf

  • Prof Raus

    Ifo economist Klaus Wohlrabe said on Wednesday, “German companies do not appear to be concerned about the possibility of Britain leaving the European Union after a vote on June 23”.

    In contrast they report “Economic sentiment in the euro area weakened and there are still no signs of a sweeping economic recovery in the euro area”. BREXIT for growth is the message.

    • bengeo

      “German companies do not appear to be concerned about the possibility of Britain leaving the European Union after a vote on June 23”.

      After the USA and France, we are the largest exporter to Germany (2015).

      They, after Brexit, will be able to charge us – Customs Duty, VAT and tarrifs on our imports.

      Well done them!

      • wibbling

        Yet they won’t, as that would reduce their sales to us. Same as we wouldn’t charge more to them. It isn’t in our interests. Business, unlike politicians, like free markets.

        • bengeo

          Customs duty and VAT are an EU obligation for anyone importing into the EU from outside.

          Only once inside the single market they can goods move between countries free of charge.

          • WTF

            And ?

        • NBeale

          You live up to your name! It’s not up to German Companies whether import duties are levvied – it’s a question of EU law. And even the most demented Brexiter can see that leaving the EU would make us VERY unpopular with the European Commission who have to decide what deals if any we get.

          • Trailblazer10

            You appear to understand the EU politburo consists of fanatical cultists filled with spite and utterly contemptuous of the will of the people.

          • manofthepeepl

            And of course we all know that Germany is totally without influence in Brussels….

          • WFB56

            Wrong and wrong again. There are processes for this that would take a very long time to implement and are completely self-destructive. The pique of puny politicians like Junker and the multiple non-entities who are various “Presidents” of the EU, doesn’t change this.

          • yeoman

            ‘A Brexit would hurt Germany’s firms heavily reliant upon exports most, said the Paris-headquartered Euler Hermes.

            ‘The car industry would suffer a £1.5billion (€2bn) blow and the country’s mechanical engineers and chemical industry would lose out on almost £1bn each.

            ‘The losses, amid a drop in exports, could push many firms to the brink of survival, forecasts Euler Hermes.

            ‘Ron van het Hof, chief executive of Euler Hermes in Germany, Austria and Switzerland, told German paper the Spiegel: “German exporters would be the biggest losers of a Brexit by a long shot.’

          • WTF

            Exactly, we’ve been saying that all along.

          • WTF

            And who calls the shots in the EU, its Merkel of course and she wont want to see German workers protesting about job losses brought about by EU rules on trade when she could have stopped it.

            Its too convenient for remainers to see the EU structure as an elected accountable body when it suits one narrative but also as a body that has its strings pulled by member states like Germany or France when they have an axe to grind. The EU doesn’t follow laws or rules if its politically expedient otherwise the PIIGS wouldn’t be in the Eurozone.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            So you have no idea about the EU, etc.

          • WTF

            Again and again its Pseudologia Fantastica alert “Lying Wolfie”

          • Leon Wolfeson

            No, see, your other personality is you and is still male. Thanks for highlighting your issue, though.

          • WTF

            Pragnosticism – No argument !

      • Prof Raus

        We are Germany’s third largest export market and would be able to charge them Customs Duty, VAT and tariffs on their exports. As they enjoy a huge surplus our receipts would be much larger than theirs allowing us, if we wished, to compensate British exporters. Of course none of this will happen because unlike the white flag fraternity you represent business people want trade and trade unions want jobs.

      • WTF

        I’m sure they’re putting on a brave face as what else would they do in the circumstances. If the pound falls they could lose exports, if tariffs are applied it cuts both ways but they have more goods affected than us so overall, they have more to lose. But the reality is Merkel will cover their backs to ensure no tit-for-tat tariffs will be applied by ensuring Brussels toes the German line and saves German jobs.

  • Michael H Kenyon

    They got a cocky PR man as PM, so what did you expect? The debate is a game for them, and it’s obvious they could argue the reverse if they felt like it, but think there is more in it for them (not the country) to Bremain. The insincerity is palpable, and truth has been the first thing removed from the debate. Doesn’t help that the virtue-signallers are now “power-signalling” as well, appealing to those with a bad dose of what used to be called “false consciousness” and unaware how they are about to be shafted even more.

  • Julian Kavanagh

    I think it’s really sad but Peter has finally gone loopy. His articles and tweets demonstrate that his grip on reality, which has always been fragile, has been completely loosened. I see him trudging around Gunnersbury where I work and he lives and it’s a pretty sorry sight. Frankly, I am not sure why the Spectator continues to give his conspiracy theories the air they don’t deserve.

    You might think this is a brutal attack on him…it is. But it’s less brutal than his attacks above on the integrity of politicians who have had the guts to stand for office, something he, a well paid commentator for decades, has never done.

    • yeoman

      ‘You might think this is a brutal attack on him’
      The only person damaged is the writer.

  • NBeale

    This is typical Daily Mail hyperbole. Long on ad-hominem rant and with no evidence.
    EVERY indepenent economic commentator of any international stature agrees that the economic impact of a Brexit vote would be somewhere between Bad and Very Bad. Because Oborne and his crew cant accept this self-evident fact and have NO real economic counter-arguments, they rant about lies and conspiracies.

    • rhys

      But HOW can it be ‘self evident’ that leaving the EU would be bad for the economy when the two most prosperous countries in Europe are not members of the EU ? Yes, I know : they have agreed to do this that and the other, but still, the bottom line is that the prosperity of the Swiss and the Norwegians is proof irrefutable that membership of the EU is not necessary for a country to be prosperous : other factors are more important.

    • wibbling

      No, they don’t. If we leave we will get richer. If we stay chained to the EU, we will get poorer.

      It may not suit you, or those vaunted economists (referencing statists and others to gain from the EU) won’t accept that because you don’t wish to, that’s your problem for deliberately remaining ignorant.

      The argument to leave the EU is self evident. If you wish to see why, look at Soviet Russia, Venezuela, Greece (now) Spain (now) and ask if that’s where you want to go.

    • sparrow-hawk

      No counter arguments? They’re wholly unnecessary if you have half a brain and some COMMON SENSE. There are 162 countries outside the EUSSR, from Singapore to Canada to Japan to Peru. Strange how they’re not all “isolated” and facing economic disaster isn’t it?

      • NBeale

        The question is: what would be the economic effects of leaving one of the world’s largest trading zones. All serious economic analysis shows that these costs would be significant. They would be compounded if the result was to cause a recession in the EU as well as in the UK.

        Even if we just moved from the EU to the EEA the impact would be negative, but then we’d have to accept Free Movement of People and pay the same as we do now. So the Brexit Brigade have said clearly that they want us to leave the EU and the EEA. This would force us, under WTO rules, to increase tarrifs with almost every country we currently trade with, which manifestly will reduce trade and economic growth.

        If we were very lucky we might eventually get similar trade agreements to those that Switzerland has, but these took 10 years to negotiate and do not cover Financial Services which are the UK’s major export. Meanwhile we’d have had a recession and many years of stunted growth.

        There is no painless “Magic Wand” that will get us from In to Out. It would be a very costly and painful process.

        • Dukeofplazatoro

          It would not necessarily be Armageddon. For a start, I believe there is a two year transitory period. Companies will have to adapt, and no doubt there will be a lot of lobbying from each sector for the most favourable terms for each one. As we are a large market and trade goes both ways we would have considerable leverage, so it is wrong to talk of a “Norway model” or “Swiss model” as we have far more economic clout, and a British model should emerge. There may be a jolt in the short term, but in the long term, economic independence should enable us to be more flexible and be of benefit.

          I would reverse the question. What are the economic consequences of staying in? We would be tied to a sclerotic and out-dated bloc with only limited ability to organise our own affairs, ever increasing regulation and submission to the political interests of other countries.

          Yes it may be risky taking to the lifeboats, but staying on the Titanic may be riskier still.

        • WFB56

          You obviously know nothing about the way international trade works and the World Trade Organisation systems. Post Brexit there would be nothing to stop the UK trading with anyone in Europe exactly as it is today unless someone in the EU specifically erected some trade barriers and those barriers have to fall within certain WTO, not EU, parameters. The likelihood of that happening is very very small.

        • WTF

          The reality is you have posted no facts to substantiate your vacuous claims and are just repeating polit-speak you hear from those with a vested interest.

          Trade wont stop the second we leave and even if it takes 10 years for any new agreement, business will carry on as before in the mean time. Do you really think that German car manufacturers or French & Spanish farmers will put on hold their trade for 10 years as that is what you’re fear mongering.

          None of these things will happen assuming WWIII doesn’t break out and it will be continue business as usual until the ‘antagonists’ on both sides can reach a trade agreement. Just look around the globe today and there’s all manner of trade deals under negotiation, are you suggesting that the countries involved have stopped trading with each other until the lawyers have signed off. I can just see some Brussels Eurocrat telling a Spanish tomato grower, slow down the growing of your produce for 5 years as we haven’t signed a deal yet, get real for goodness sake !

          • Leon Wolfeson

            So you didn’t read his post… as you claim the law will magically be ignored.

            And unless you get your WWIII… as you ignore the fact no country has gone back to zero deals. And the fact is that trade is often stopped, but hey facts.

            It’s not the Eurocrat who wants those barriers, it’s you.

          • WTF

            Pseudologia Fantastica alert “Lying Wolfie”

            No facts, just opinions !

          • Leon Wolfeson

            I agree you don’t deal with facts, as you alert people to you and your issues there, with your other personality, you.

          • WTF

            Pragnosticism – Agreed

          • WTF

            OK, I think I’ll start practicing Pragnosticism –

            Yep, all your posts are right and all of mine are wrong as I can’t be bothered
            dealing with a frigging idiot like you so its time to move on. I don’t care much anymore as I’d rather have root canal work than try and discuss facts with someone suffering from ‘Pseudologia Fantastica’ and ‘Expressive Aphasia’ !

          • Leon Wolfeson

            No, hate is not “Pragnosticism”

            As you run away, as usual, from “idiot” Jews like me…as you blame me for your fantasies and issues. Which are yours.

          • WTF

            Pragnosticism –

            Absolutely

    • WTF

      You keep repeating the same wishful thinking hoping it were true but Mystic Meg has a better track record of fiscal predictions than the IMF and other so called experts.

      • Leon Wolfeson

        No surprise you decry even strongly right-wing fiscal positions when they don’t suit you.

        • WTF

          Right, left or centre, if they have a bad track record then I dismiss them and yours isn’t any better “Lying Wolfie”

          • Leon Wolfeson

            So you dismiss yourself, as you talk to your other personality there, you.

          • WTF

            Pragnosticism – Consider me dismissed !

  • davidblameron

    In another life, this writer used to heap praise on both the Prime Minister, Cameron and the Chancellor, Osborne.
    Now, it seems he has had some re-education, he recently wrote an article pouring scorn on Cameron’s 2011 Libyan adventure.

    • David Beard

      So what? When Blair became PM he also had his admirers and backers. Then people find out the truth about their former leaders; and the brave ones either speak out, leave – or in some circumstances – die.

      I think Oborne was also one of the first Tories to leave the Telegraph because of its erm… well, where do we start with that hilarious polish rag.

      • davidblameron

        Think he left over an article criticizing HSBC bosses, the biggest provider of advertising revenue for the DT.

        • David Beard

          Well, that’s good – isnt it? Cheers for the info btw. I remember it now.

  • whs1954

    Is there any subject on which Peter Oborne writes nowadays, where he cannot manage to get in apologetics for Islamists, terrorists, and/or their supporters?

  • SeaNote

    Britain is just another European colony. Did you know that the mayor of London is a Muslim, for goodness sake.

    • wibbling

      It has a Muslim mayor not on competence but because of perverted demographics.

  • Rodolph de Salis

    Lyin’

  • Peter Stroud

    Of ourse, on the EU issue there is no opposition from the Labour side of the House. We know that the glorious leader and his chancellor are both anti EU, yet they dare not speak their minds because both would be deposed after a reelection within the party. Neither is a man of principle.

    • The Dybbuk

      I saw what you did there. You not so subtly attempted to shift the focus of the article away from the dissembling PM and his shifty sidekick. Fortunately, you have failed miserably. Lynton has a role for you at CCHQ, leave your principles at the door.

  • somewhereinthesouth

    Cameron is an arch manipulator and PR con artist . He is engaged in near lying on most of his comments on the EU . It doesn’t matter too much if he’s subsequently found to have been exaggerating or making the “wrong ” assumptions , since his “fact”s really boil down to guesses and assumptions about the future which the treasury have been told to make – these “official” reports then masquerade as the truth despite the dubious assumptions and since they are being repeated so often and by so many of his cronies and organisations in the pay of the government, they become believable – instead of the propaganda they are . He gets daily headlines every time a new “forecast” is made even though they are based on dodgy dossiers. Cameron cant lose at this game – because you cant disprove a “forecast” since this is basically about the future – and the evidence disprove it wont be available for moths or years until AFTER the event and of course any vote – by which time it will be too late . You can of course question the assumptions but this are often seen as making “technical” objections rathe than demolishing the claims – thus the headline conclusions remain – just becuse they are there and were sued first .
    These forecasts also take on the mantle of near fact as they are backed up with similar forecasts from other government cronies – who are being orchestrated by no10 .Day after day they repeat much the same propaganda and anyone who isn’t listening too closely is taken in – they absorb gets the subliminal simple message – which is that leaving is downright dangerous and risky. And of course since there is a risk which is in fact difficult to quantify [ just as there is in staying ] it plays well with those who arent sure or are risk averse.

    Take the alleged damage to the economy and growth – it simply ludicrous suggest a large negative economic impact .Why? Well the most likely initial outcome [of leaving] would be for the UK to join the EEA ,at least in the first instance, like Norway . This would guarantee free movement of people and free and unfettered access to the single market as now, so our relationship in economic terms with the EU would remain more or less unchanged and trade & Investment would therefore most likely continue unabated [ of course all the other EU baggage could be abandoned ]….but to come to this conclusion that the risk is small you have to THINK and LISTEN to the arguments – not just the headlines which the BBC and others repeat ad nauseam . If they are challenged – it is often later on in the bulletin but the headlines gets most airtime and of course the most prominent billing that is the nattier of headlines and lead stories . Most people don’t spend a great deal time thinking about how they are being manipauted – they haven’t the time, the information or the interest – so the fear campaign works – just by saying something loud enough and often enough the Cameron and remain line becomes the truth – a headline narrative of fear and risk…

    .Politicians all lie but Cameron, Osborne [ and Blair ] have raised it to new heights . Don’t be taken in – we were conned in 1975 when the real purpose of the EEC was swept under the carpet – don’t be fooled again . Vote leave .

    • yeoman

      ‘… have raised it to new heights’
      …have taken it to new depths ?

  • AlexanderGalt

    “Osborne and Cameron couldn’t care less that their lies and fabrications are exposed. Incidentally, none of these predictions is supposed to be taken seriously. The Leave camp get outraged and take the trouble to counter and reveal each of them as brazen lies and fantasies from the same people who predicted such a bright future for the euro. But they are missing the point and wasting their time. Cameron and Osborne couldn’t care less if all their doom-laden prophesies are debunked. Their intention isn’t to persuade by rational argument, but to create such a blizzard of woe that those who are not very clued into the debate, particularly the young, will come away with the vibe that leaving the EU will be some sort of disaster. Like Macbeth they “have walked so far into this river of blood that even if they stopped now, it would be as hard to go back..”

    That’s from a piece called Killer Lie and worth a look: http://john-moloney.blogspot.com/2016/05/brexit-killer-argument.html

    • Penny Henry

      Yes. Are you familiar with Bernays?

    • Ozfan

      True. It’s also been very successful in keeping the debate focussed on untestable predictions of economic and social armageddons and hence drowning out the known facts of EU membership (loss of democratic accountability, poor handling of refugee crisis, financial meltdown in Greece, huge immigration and pressure on NHS, etc.).

  • jeffersonian

    ‘This meant that Britain could invade Iraq on the basis that Saddam presented a devastating threat to his neighbours — even though we possessed no evidence at all to prove it…’

    As if the previous decades of Baathist dictatorship wasn’t enough?

    Peter Oborne is like the man obsessed with one single issue to the point where even his friends eventually find his society burdensome.

    • antoncheckout

      There is no logic in invading a country just because it is ruled by a dictatorship. Particularly not when it is next door to several other dictatorships, and when the rest of the world is liberally sprinkled with them.
      It might look as if we support and then oppose the same regimes in e.g. Afghanistan, Pakistan, Iraq and Syria, because it suits our book. And it would never do to give that impression, would it.

      • jeffersonian

        I’m with you half-way. But if one of those dictatorships is the world’s primary state-sponsor of anti-Western terrorism then all bets are off. In summary I have only one objection about the Iraq war (although it’s fairly significant: they should have invaded Iran instead.

    • David Beard

      That’s because his ‘friends’ are being found out. I remember all the cr*ap Oborne had to put up with because he dare to defend Corbyn on a few certain issues (issues Corbyn was later found to be correct on). Not that i’m a ‘Corbynite’ as such. But that’s exactly why it’s hard to have any sort of free opinion in this country lately. If you’re a Tory or a Labourite, or a Green or UKIP, you must all subscribe to a certain list of beliefs. otherwise you’re a ‘sell-out’ a ‘fake’ – a ‘traitor’.
      Grow up -man up. And try thinking for yourselves for a change.

  • antoncheckout

    Just looking at today’s German and Austrian press, we’re not the only ones being lied to. Schaeuble has somehow managed to convince the IMF to kick the Greek can further down the road, with just little enough debt relief for now to enable him and Merkel to pass it off as any concession at all – so the Bundestag “doesn’t need” to vote on it – but with the secret (but leaked) German promise to the IMF that there will be a massive forgiveness of the Greek debt – after the next (2017) German General Election!
    Many of the CDU MPs know about this deception, but will say nothing as they too want to be re-elected, and if it is publicly released before the election the Germans will go berserk at the idea that they have given billions to Greece – billions that have been passed on to the IMF and the ECB – billions that will never, ever be repaid to the German taxpayer.
    The Germans will realize what they already suspected – that it was all a complete farce, and they were deliberately deceived by their own government politicians, just to save their own skins.
    http://www.faz.net/aktuell/wirtschaft/eurokrise/griechenland/kommentar-bizarre-einigung-ueber-griechenland-14253721.html

    In Austria, their new Greeny-socialist President Van der Bellen has gone on German tv (for Austrians, not the least sting of the insult) and announced that he will refuse to swear in an elected FPÖ Chancellor if the FPÖ wins the majority in the next elections. Since the FPÖ got 49.65% of the vote to Van der Bellen’s 50.35%, this seems rather cheeky of him. And now it also emerges that some presidential election results themselves are bogus (a 146% turnout in one district, and voting anomalies in Linz, Villach and elsewhere). Serious postal voting irregularity is also being investigated, to such an extent that (as in the news today) the presidential election might have to be re-run.
    http://diepresse.com/home/politik/innenpolitik/4996774/Wahlaffaere_Innenressort-greift-durch?_vl_backlink=/home/index.do

    • Callan

      Ah yes, serious postal voting irregularities. Coming soon to a referendum near you. Eh Cameron?

    • licjjs

      One’s suspicions were immediately raised when it was reported that the postal votes changed the result. Postal votes should be banned in any open society worthy of the name. Postal voting encourages corruption and makes a nonsense of democracy.

    • WTF

      I agree.

      Germany has to kick the Greek can down the road as any idea that Greece would default would have German bankers s******* themselves as they are the most exposed to toxic debt from the PIIGS. Merkel & Juncker along with their fiscal deniers like Schaeuble dare not let Greece fail as the German banks would soon follow and they can’t let that happen.

      A bail out requirement for German banks would be the worst possible scenario for Merkel & the EU as apart from the image issues, who would they get to help bail them out. The ECB doesn’t have enough money, IMF members other than Germany wouldn’t be inclined to help and EU states are getting rebellious and would tell Merkel to have her people bail her banks out just as we had to bail out our own UK banks.

      Its interesting that Iceland who said stuff it, we’re going to default on our debts are now doing pretty well globally and perhaps that’s a lesson for the PIIGS. Let the EU banks (mainly German & French) take a big hit and the PIIGS could recover reverting back to their original currencies. Politically of course that would be unacceptable to Juncker & Merkel as it would be yet another nail in the EU that is now dying by a thousand cuts. The only real question is which ‘cut’ will kill it off !

  • SeaNote

    What difference does it make? Britain isn’t Britain any more.

  • Hamburger

    Mr Oborne seems to think that there was a time when no one, especially politicians, lied or concealed their intentions. How wonderfully naïve.

    • David Beard

      Some cant stand being challenged without the old whataboutery rearing its predictable little head – eh?
      The point is when we do get a few principled politicians, we don’t appreciate it.

      • Hamburger

        No, he is just ranting as usual.

    • Fraser Bailey

      I would say that until 1997, politics was a mixture of opinions, facts and lies. We now live in a world where it is 100% lies.

  • Marvin

    This is all our own fault! we are conditioned to look up to these Cretins because they went to Eton or Cambridge, but we must start to realise that old cliché that you can lead a horse to water etc. It is no guarantee for intelligence. We need a change of scene, like Trump who will trample on these established delusioned gods as they think of themselves, and find someone who cares for his country and not the size of their bank balances. ANARCHY! and Brexit!

  • James

    Cameron and Osbourne need to go.

  • Box of Frogs

    The economic argument for Brexit is that ceteris paribus, a move to reduce bureaucracy and state intervention tends to ensure limited resources are more efficiently allocated, resulting in a more prosperous society. I wish those on the vote Leave side, would just refer doubters to ‘The road to Serfdom’, by the Nobel Prize winning economist F.Hayek. It was even endorsed and recommended by J.M.Keynes (who all these Remainers seem to adore and misinterpret.), J.Schumpeter, and even G.Orwell himself.
    The EU is a socialist construct, as opposed to a Federal Construct and as any one with an ounce of common sense knows, they tend to perform less efficiently.
    The difficulty purely lies in explaining a much more complex rationale, to an audience who are more susceptible to an onslaught of goebbelesque style propaganda.

    • mikewaller

      Hayek’s work was written in the context of an economic system in which folks with white skins plus the Japanese produced the great majority of manufactured goods with so called developing countries supplying raw materials. That world has gone. Now, globally, we have, a productive capacity way in excess of any conceivable power to purchase. The net effect of this will be ruthless downward pressures on wages that will drive ordinary Westerners into penury. The moves being made in France are part of this process and the resulting industrial strife an inevitable consequence. Reacting to the same internal pressures, the USA has just put 525% tariffs in Chinese steel and Trump has promised tariffs on Ford cars made in Mexico. The long term position is very bleak; but in the short/medium term our one hope is to be in a completive market within a trade bloc within which income levels are of broadly comparable. In contrast, stepping out alone into the maelstrom of cheap imports is madness. We simply do not have the heft necessary to face down a country like China in order to moderate the economic catastrophe that is awaiting. The EU does.

      • dipsplepskik

        I agree almost entirely with your synopsis. However, The only way the EU could possibly have any weight is if it went the full hog and became a communist block, (well on it’s way in my opinion). This, to me would be as bad as penury.
        Hard times are on the way in this overpopulated world.

      • Brigantian

        So you hope that wage levels in the UK fall to be ‘broadly comparable’ with those in Eastern Europe?
        Your analysis is hopelessly flawed on every level. Unless you deny white colonisation of Australia and propose that the Aborigines are selling coal and iron ore to India and China?

        • mikewaller

          Do you not understand the age of Euro-American domination is coming to an end? In its day, it wrote the rules to suit itself; now other major players have joined the party. Go it alone and we will be a sad little wallflower accelerating into terminal decline. Certainly it would be better to be part of bloc that did not include countries with severe economic shortcomings, but the EC is the only option available to us. Remaining within it is certainly far, far preferable to going out unsuported to face the full weight of unrestricted competition from very, very low cost economies world wide.

          • WTF

            You’re wrong for many reasons in that you’re making it too simplistic.

            The first and most important factor that ensures the survival of a country is food to feed its people and energy to keep the wheels turning and America has that more than any other country in the world. It is self sufficient on 99% of all it needs and even without ME oil it can frack enough for its own. Once those conditions are met, manufacturing and trade follows naturally and before you jump up and say “Ah but all manufacturing has gone to China”, lets look at that.

            Competition between American and European companies caused them to look outside their countries as the labor costs were cheaper and they could undercut their rivals but its only a temporary phase. Even Japan and the start of the transistor radio after WWII went off shore several decades later because of domestic costs but the options for off shore manufacturing are shrinking.

            China is suffering from a very serious pollution epidemic currently far worse than the London smogs I remember of the 1950’s. How many more will die before China is forced to implement pollution control which removes pretty much any cost benefit for Apple or others to manufacture there. Then we have the people themselves who just like Russians a couple of decades ago are waking up to being abused and will demand much more out of life. China’s rush to become a leading world class nation is following the Russian model, short cuts are being taken, HS trains are crashing, new bridges are suspect and in many cases its an accident waiting to happen. However, polluting the air and water is the biggest issue and when birth deformities escalate and people are choking to death, they’ll have to stop and address it.

            Please explain how countries like China can compete when they are forced to play on a level playing field not because of Trumps import tariffs although they are an option, but because of problems at home like pollution and working environment will force their costs up. I’d be interested to here how the demise of America will happen.

            Europe, well that’s completely different as despite its adequate food supply it has little energy resources and with an incompetent corrupt bunch of EU politicians, they’ll commit suicide if allowed. They don’t have the high tech base that America has, they are fragmented right now and fragmenting as we write so it doesn’t look good for them.

            As for the UK, there’s little to choose between remaining or leaving except that be leaving we have other choices we can take. The EU is the worst possible option as the writing is on the wall for its demise in its current form and perhaps closer ties to America might be a possibility for the UK. At least we have the same language, heritage & culture and importantly legal systems where we use common law whilst Europe is civil law and very different.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            No surprise you think the British remaining alive is the worse option…you want the worse factor of America’s poverty here, etc.

            China is another shining example of your capitalist ideology, of course.
            Meanwhile, Russia is supporting the same old strongman, while it’s young men drink themselves to death.

          • WTF

            Completely loopy loo, you should have taken those meds “Lying Wolfie”

          • Leon Wolfeson

            I agree you appear to be “loopy loo”, as you talk to your other personality there, you.

          • WTF

            Pragnosticism –

            Sadly its contagious

      • WTF

        Even if we accept the EU has more heft than the UK on its own it certainly doesn’t have the will or capability to sort out trade deals in a timely manner as has been seen recently. We could accept that there are more trade deals available via the EU as the CBI seems to claim, there is nothing of fact that shows we will necessarily benefit from it.

        If we look at their document (below) it claims facts, but the facts are all loaded with caveats that the UK could, might, may get x,y,z in trade but not a single fact of important detail like special tariffs, no tariffs, what goods are covered. Its rather disingenuous for the CBI to claim this is a factual document when its absent of the facts to draw a real conclusion.

        http://news.cbi.org.uk/business-issues/uk-and-the-european-union/eu-business-facts/10-facts-about-eu-trade-deals-pdf/

      • Box of Frogs

        The reason for the imbalance between global demand and supply of pretty much everything is due to government interference on a global scale. The majority of intervention one needs to understand is generally for political short term political gain in power.
        ‘Governments only do the right thing when they have no other choice.’
        The majority of politicians do only what is necessary to retain power and their positions. So few have principles.

  • mikewaller

    This article really is a joke. Brexiters have lied, lied and lied again about the contribution the UK makes to the EU and ditto with the prospects of Turkey being accepted as a full member. Nor have they come clean about Norway’s being required to accept free movement as the price it pays for trading on equal terms with the EU. And as for get the crap about them still wishing to trade with us post Brexit, what is becoming clearer and clearer, is that the scarcest commodity in the world of the future will be employment opportunities. Because of this, they will be far keener to “import” jobs from us – particularly those now provided by the City – than they will be to sell into an economy greatly reduce by the tsunami of cheap imported goods from low cost economies against which we will have no effective trade barriers because of our comparative weakness.

    • Brigantian

      Obviously you have never attended any Brexit or UKIP event and rely for your information on the BBC. No serious spokesman in the Remain camp denies that the UK makes a substantial net contribution to the EU: they describe it as a ‘price worth paying’. The fast track road for Turkey to become an EU member is a fact in the public realm. Only David Cameron thinks it is at some time in the distant future, by which point the UK will already have become a caliphate with his help. By reverse logic he argues it therefore does not matter!

      • mikewaller

        Please tell me where I can catch up with either Boris or Farage on the road, preferably somewhere in the South Midlands.

        • WTF

          You don’t need to catch up with either of them as the facts you choose to ignore are freely available to everyone.

    • WTF

      Is it not the case that the ‘pizzo’ paid to the EU under the guise of our membership fee is calculated on our GDP which in turn bears no relationship to the ‘wealth’ of the country as our national debt nor the servicing of that debt is included ?

      Isn’t it the case that when we borrow money through government loans to be paid back in 10 or 20 years time, the money raised and spent that year boosts the GDP figures and automatically boosts the ‘pizzo’ paid to the EU. ?

      Isn’t it a fact that no matter how large our national debt, no account is made of it in relation to the GDP to reduce the ‘pizzo’ amount ?

      Is it not a fact that as hard as we might try to reduce our indebtedness, if it increases GDP the EU gets its percentage through the ‘pizzo’ they demand from us ?

      Are these 4 line items Brexiter lies or inconvenient truths that the remainers would rather we don’t talk about !

      • Infadel

        Far too factual and sensible for most Bremainiacs to understand.

  • paul

    What planet has Oborne been living on the Tories ( Nasty ) Party adopted The Politics of Fear in the 2010 & 2015 General Elections and the Scottish referendum so to ask the TURDS to change the habits of a lifetime just ain’t going to happen !!!

  • SeaNote

    Bureaucrats are lackeys for the one percenters. Brexit is for culture.

  • John Hawkins Totnes

    “Lying disempowers and therefore debases those who are lied to.” Lying also destroys the liar, as we will see in the next few months.

  • Brigantian

    Whitehall no longer has any credibility. Nearly all its mandarins are now EU placemen, the majority partly if not entirely foreign. Look closely at their CVs and it turns out that their experience is primarily within government owned state monopolies within other EU countries. These same monopolies have been acquiring both public and private assets in this country at an alarming rate.

    • davidblameron

      Do they care about credibility?

      • licjjs

        That is the sad thing. Many years ago, a PM or a Minister would have resigned through shame over some of these matters; if not shame at the lying and deceit, at least shame at being found out. Resigning is very much out of fashion with these people, Cameron, Osborne et al, because they have an almighty sense of entitlement and despise the ‘little people’, their dupes.

    • licjjs

      You only have to look at Osborne’s placing of Mark Carney who is now trotting out the Remain mantra’s with the fidelity of ‘His Master’s Voice’. Was there not a British person with the qualifications to run the bank? After all, Carney’s sole job seems to be to announce now and again that he is not raising interest rates, sometimes after having sent markets and banks into a spin by announcing that the rate would rise ‘in six months’, ‘at the end of the year’, ‘at the beginning of the year’ etc etc. He has absolutely no right talking publicly about whether we should vote to stay in or out of the EU.

  • davidblameron

    Mr and Mrs Cautious who live in every part of Britain and in every social and financial class are veering heavily in favour of stay in.

    • Trailblazer10

      The relentless lies spouted by the remainiacs might create the impression among the ill informed that some sort of disaster may happen.

      That seems to be the tactic of the deceitful remainiacs. Throw enough sh**t and some of it may stick.

      There is no safety in Remaining. There is no staus quo. There will be futher subjugation into EU communism and enforced 3rd world mass immigration.

      • davidblameron

        I agree 101%, it’s not the remainianians’ (like Cameron and Osborne) lies so much but that is what Mr and Mrs Cautious will pretend to believe, it’s the global plan thingy, we are expected to support staying in because to LEAVE would be a huge great spanner in the globalists’ plans ; just like 1975, I’m afraid I can see it coming, barring a last minute miracle.

    • Professor Driftwood

      For ‘Mr. and Mrs. Cautious’, read Mr. and Mrs. Delusional. If they were to watch ‘Brexit The Movie’ they would not sleep at night.

      • davidblameron

        Thanx, I just watched the first 15 minutes and realized I’d seen it a couple of months ago. That’s not the point, they can still get the message about how rotten the whole system is but the fact is, the globalists want Britain in, that’s what swung it in 1975 and will do so again on June 23 unless as I repeat, an 11th hour awakening by the majority.

        • Professor Driftwood

          I am 61 years of age and have seen a fair bit in my time but the fact that the political ‘elite’ are spewing out these lies one after another proves they are in a flat spin, i.e. their cosy little club is under threat. This is the last chance we will have to save our country. It doesn’t matter what party you support, the LibLabCon all piss in the same pot ~ they are all corrupt and all support Bremain. Think of that.

          • davidblameron

            Don’t preach to the converted Prof. (I say converted because like many others voted in – in 1975)
            Tell the multitudes out there who are unbending remainians – there are more than you think.

  • Terence Hale

    Considering the economics of a Brexit its just a matter of time until Scotland gain independence. Scotland wish to remain in the EU and must enter the Euro zone and thus by a Brexit would be forced into the defensive over the condition of independence.

    • Professor Driftwood

      Indeed. An ‘independent’ Scotland, on re-entering the EU would not only have to surrender the pound in favour of the euro, but see its oil and gas revenues being sucked into Brussels to make up for the shortfall of no UK contributions post Brexit. Talk about delusional. Any sane person would be crazy to want to Bremain. On that subject, whatever you do, don’t watch ‘Brexit The Movie’ ~ it will keep awake at night.

      • Muireach MacGilleChaluim

        Ah, but you forget that a substantial percentage of Scots hate the Westminster Establishment with a burning passion, even more than Brexit supporters hate Brussels.

        • Professor Driftwood

          Granted, but surely they won’t cut off their own nose to spite their face? Also, Brexit supporters hate the Westminster lot, also with a passion. After Brexit there will be a massive realignment socially and politically in the UK ~ that could be enough to please the Scots and everyone else.

        • getahead

          Aye, that damned Edward Longshanks.

          But not all Scots are Glasgow Rangers supporters.

  • Professor Driftwood

    I have adopted the comment name of Professor Driftwood in memory of one of the best mickey-takers of all time, Groucho Marx, because the chicanery being employed by the Government re. the referendum about our continued EU membership reminds me of a Marx Brothers’ skit. But this time it isn’t funny because the very existence of the UK is in the balance. We have become lazy, complacent and indifferent to what is going on around us. Of course this has been orchestrated by the Establishment so that Britons are now unthinking drones that don’t question, argue with and toe the official line. The news media is so biased in their presentation and reporting of this debate that it is both embarrassing and disgusting, with one pro-EU spokesperson after another trotting out the mantra of Bremain. I’ve given up watching BBC and Sky News and don’t even look at their websites because there is little or no (especially in the case of the BBC) chance to comment on this debate. I thought I knew a lot about the ‘wonderful’ EU, but my eyes were opened when I viewed ‘Brexit The Movie’ ~ absolutely breathtakingly astonishing. If your a Bremainer, don’t watch it ~ you’ll have nightmares.

    • getahead

      you’re

      • Professor Driftwood

        Hi, I am mystified by your reply. Can you be more forthcoming.

        • getahead

          ” If your a Bremainer, don’t watch it”.
          Should be you’re. I got it wrong also.

  • mikewaller

    “Someone unafraid to cross many of his own MPs is George Osborne. The Chancellor has campaigned vigorously for Remain, using the full force of the Treasury at every opportunity. This isn’t how you would behave if you were interested only in currying favour with your MPs, almost half of whom are for Leave. Indeed, Osborne’s passionate defence of the EU does rather confound the caricature of him as a Machiavelli who cares only for his own advancement.

    His conviction that EU membership is vital stems from his belief that size matters. He argues that the EU’s size means it can make a difference both in terms of trade and sanctions. One of those closest to him puts it differently, arguing that in the modern world ‘teams matter’ and Britain’s influence is maximised through its membership of international institutions. So if the UK wants to stop the Chinese setting the rules of the global economy, it needs to stay in the EU, as well as the Chinese-created Asian Infrastructure Investment Bank. ‘Got to be at the party,’ explains this confidant.”

    Why doesn’t Oborne wrap a wet towel round his head and quietly reflect on two issues: First, the above extract from this week’s James Forsyth article, which is about the first sensible thing the Specky has had to say on Brexit for a long time. PUT MORE DIRECTLY, OUR ECONOMY IS SIMPLY NOT STRONG OR BIG ENOUGH TO GO IT ALONE IN A WORLD IN WHICH THE CAPACITY TO PRODUCE GOODS IS NOW WAY IN EXCESS OF ANY CONCEIVABLY GLOBAL PURCHASING POWER. FURTHER,TO A LARGE DEGREE THIS IS BECAUSE WANTON TECHNOLOGY TRANSFERS HAVE COST WESTERNERS THEIR TECHNOLOGICAL EDGE AND AS A RESULT THEIR CURRENT STANDARD OF LIVING IS ECONOMICALLY ANOMALOUS. Now I can say that, and had he the insight, Oborne could say it; but one guy who cannot if George Osborne. Why? Because he is Chancellor of the Exchequer. As a result, in in the interests of our Country, he has to pull every other lever available to him. It is called statesmanship.

    Second point. Civil servants had always done their master’s bidding. When I studied politics 50 years ago, this was frequently illustrated by the case of a member of Attlee’s administration who reacted to the first offering of his civil servants by saying something like “Thou’s given me a paper saying how it can’t be done; now give me one saying how it can”. More recently, I have read the autobiography of Neville Shute who spent the inter war years as an aeronautical engineer and businessman. Heavily involved in the building of the private industry R100 he saw at close hand the politics involved in the building by government employees of the R101. Whilst the R100 was a technical success, the R101 was a catastrophic failure that came down in France killing its sponsor the Air Minister, Lord Thompson, and 47 others. What Shute makes abundantly clear is that the genesis of the disaster lay in the ambitious Thompson desperately wanting favourable reports on the safety of the airship, something which civil servants – administrative and scientific – gave him, very much against their better judgement. Many died alongside him in France. ‘Twas ever thus!

    • Old men plant trees

      Capacity and opportunity are related but not as you suggest. Just one man saw redundant aircraft in the last recession as an opportunity to bring runner beans from Kenya. A new African industry now flourishes because of it.
      It is true that some projects require scale. Cooperation between companies rather than a union of nations would seem the easier solution to that.
      Britain being 70% service led is less capital constrained than say a Chinese cement industry which in three years has made more cement than the USA used in the 20th Century. Flexibility and foot work are the requirement for finding opportunities and that is hardly Brussels forte.
      And yes all politicians indulge in deception. However, trade rewards those who deliver and not those who simply promise. Vote Leave- let Britain breath.

      • mikewaller

        You make my case for me. The sheer scale of China’ mismanagement of its economy in terms of creating huge over capacity means that it will be relentless in seeking to dump its massive surpluses worldwide to prevent catastrophic internal disruption. Only the really big battalions will be able to resist and that most certainly does not include a Brexited UK.
        Globally, we Westerners enjoy an abnormally high standard of living and as any classical economist will tell you, stepping out into a world in which your hitherto transcendent technical expertise has been wantonly scattered worldwide, is a straightforward application to join a race to the bottom in terms of the incomes of ordinary people. Of course, as the riots in France, the right wing near miss in Austria, the rise of both Trump and Socialism in America and the tariffs just put on Chinese steel in the US attest, ordinary voters will not take this lying down. As a result, democratic pressures will drive high income societies into protectionism, leaving poor old GB yet further out in the cold.

  • Ipsmick

    And the most consummate liar of them all is Boris Johnson.

    • Bertie

      Nope – Will Straw puts Boris to shame.

  • PaD

    And one of the main agents for this distortion of administrative organisations Common Purpose…is still at it…i.e distorting

  • Raymond Burke

    ‘During the election the Prime Minister claimed he would create two million new jobs in the life of the new parliament. We hear no more about that now. The forecast in the last Budget was 1.1 million jobs before 2020.’

    UK unemployment is at its lowest in more than a decade. Almost 23 million people are in full-time work, 436,000 more than a year ago, while 8.4 million are working part-time, up by 152,000. There are 745,000 job vacancies.

    This healthy state of affairs in the jobs market being a fact, what on earth is Peter Oborne’s complaint?

    • Dacorum

      But what sort of jobs are these new jobs? Aren’t most of them low paid and low skilled? One reason the budget deficit is so high is because wages are in very many new jobs are low so the newly employed still qualify for housing benefits etc and pay very little tax.

      As for Libya, you don’t help remove a dictator who has been in power for 40 odd years and miraculously expect a people to rebuild their country free of dictatorship just like that especially when you talking about a Muslim country without any experience of democracy!

      • Raymond Burke

        The people of Libya were given the chance to build a new country free of dictatorship and sadly did not take it.

        I cannot be alone in believing that turfing the Mad Dog of Tripoli out of his kennel was in part payback for past insults visited on Britain including the murder of PC Yvonne Fletcher, the downing of Pan Am Flight 103 over Lockerbie killing all 243 passengers and 16 crew and 11 more people on the ground, and the sale of explosives to both the IRA and UDF during the Troubles to murder and maim British citizens. Good riddance to the mangy cur, say I.

        • Dacorum

          I was very happy to see the end of Gaddafi for the reasons you listed but the problem was not having a coherent plan to fill the power vacuum.

          The result of this failure is that Libya is a now failed state, IS have a strong foothold and refugees are flooding into Europe and sadly the end result of all this is a worse outcome for Libya and for the wider world than if Gaddafi had stayed in power.

          I think a better solution would have been to plan for the break up of Libya when Gaddafi was overthrown into Tripolitania/Fezzan and Cyrenaica, which were the old divisions before Libya was formed.

        • FrankS2

          “The people of Libya” were revealed as assorted warring factions once Gadaffi wasn’t around to keep the lid on them.

  • Cyril Sneer

    I simply don’t understand why any self-respecting white English person can possibly be against leaving the EU. So long as the UK is subject to the Schengen Agreement we’re stuck with an inability to prevent people from coming into our country so long as they got into Europe somehow. We might not be right next to Africa, but Lampedusa is, and that is one of the biggest ports of entry to Europe.

    And besides that, the EU is forming a transnational army right now and refuses to let us know what they intend doing with it until after the Referendum!

    So vote for Brexit – if you aren’t a deracinated nobody who’s ashamed to be white and English, that is.

    • Trailblazer10

      UK not part of Schengen (yet). There is freedom of movement once they have citizenship, Merkel or her henchmen will find ways of accelerating the destruction of the UK.

      The Juncker said the EU army it was to “defend EU values”. Armies are normally for controlling territory. Fairly obvious it will be used to force EU diktats on the citizens, and repress any dissent.

      • Harryagain

        And defend Poland against Russia.

        Ha! Ha!

        • Trailblazer10

          They are more likely to force half the population of North Africa into Poland.

  • Jackthesmilingblack

    test
    Notice how the DM are beating the OUT drum by attacking Border Patrol/Border Force as unfit for purpose. Rightly in my opinion.
    “Britain will be able to better control its borders if independent of EU.” That’s the message that will resonate with voters. But to really swing it, a mass sexual abuse by immigrant Muslim against British children … Wait, we’ve already had that. But the MSM covered it up as apologists for Multiculturalism.
    Image this IN/OUT referendum were being held 100 ago; British men wouldn’t have hesitated and voted OUT to a man. I say “man” because women didn’t have the vote in 1916.
    Jack, the Japan Alps Brit

  • Cobbett

    If the Freedom Party candidate would have won the Austrian presidential election the country would have faced economicsanctions and political isolation from the EU…so much for ”democracy”(what people actually want)….it’s every bit as totalitarian as the USSR.

  • Harryagain

    So many traitors in our parliament!
    REMEMBER THEIR NAMES COME THE NEXT ELECTION.

    If we remain, you can be absolutely sure:-

    (1) Every year the EUSSR’s demands for money will increase.
    (How else will they pay Turkish blackmail?)
    (2) Our own money which comes back will be reduced.
    (3) There will be ever more migrants from E. Europe.
    (4) Merkel will find a way to send her rejects from Asia over here.
    (5)House prices will continue to rise.
    (6)The low paid will get ever lower wages.
    (7)It will become ever harder to get NHS treatment.
    (8)School places will be ever harder to find and classes will be even more crowded with none English speakers.
    (9)It will be ever harder to find a job.
    (10) Those that think immigrants only do the c rap jobs are in for a surprise, better paid jobs will get taken as well.

    Anybody taking any bets any of this won’t happen?

  • nigglenoggle

    Surely Lady Thatcher, in her confrontation with the miners and in the sinking of the Belgrano, encouraged an economy with the truth even before Lord Mandleson and Cherrie made it mandatory.

  • John Andrews

    Osborne’s plan for becoming PM revealed: double GDP by doubling the population.

Close